The Ministry of Defence has provided further details on the planned disposal of HMS Westminster, a Royal Navy Type 23 frigate.

This confirmation comes in response to a parliamentary inquiry by John Healey, the Shadow Secretary of State for Defence.

Healey asked, “What is his expected timetable to retire HMS Westminster?”

James Cartlidge, the Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, clarified the status, stating, “HMS Westminster will be placed up for disposal, following the development of an associated timetable of works. It is not possible at this stage to confirm how long the disposal process itself will take.”

This announcement adds to the previously known information that HMS Westminster was slated for scrapping. Although the exact timeline for HMS Westminster’s disposal is yet to be determined, the Ministry of Defence’s statement indicates that preparatory work is in progress.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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106 COMMENTS

  1. and another ones gone, and another one’s gone another one bites the dust.⚓🤐☺️😭😭😭

    • That leaves us with what 3 ships that might work and a load of corpses and junkyard fodder in various stages of sinking…. We are not spending enough on defence given Russia, china, north Korea, Iran and before long Argentina will see there is nothing at all between them and the Falklands. What a joke this country is. Money for diversity managers, illegals and banks but nothing for defence

      • Whlle the RN is in a sorry, disgraceful ste, Argentine forces are far worse & we have a permanent airbase & garrison there. So the Falklands are far more secure than in 1982.

        • Not if the shit hits the fan all around the bloody world, we are led by monkeys, has nobody even opened a damned history book, I think the people who write here are much more informed than the people that should lead our great ‘ish” country. Night all and God bless.

        • Sadly, this ship would not be decommissioned if we were at war and there lies the truth.It’s easier and more convenient to strike off charge than save a vital vessel at this point in our history.

  2. Someone somewhere mentioned this the other day on some post, maybe not on ukdj. If it’s still got a bit of life in it maybe sell or gift to the Phillipines? They could do with a bit more fire-power and presence in the WPS at the moment. And any news on the Wildcat helo bid to the Philippines?

    • I found it interesting that they arent being sold. I assume they are beyond that and considering they arent that old in the grand scheme of things, I wonder if it’s come down to years of corner cutting on maintance.

      Although they have been used pretty heavily due to the lack of hulls.

        • Russian fleet is focused on converting their ships into submarines.

          Even the US has a number of escorts that are older though.

      • No, it’s actually down to dickhead accountant’s who don’t know. their arse from their elbow. If the hull is sound and the engines run; it’s useful. Untill we have new hulls, make do with the ones you have: What a waste.

        • And there lies the problem. The hull is likely not as sound as one would like, at least as far as Lloyds are concerned and the engines along with many of the fundamental systems are old with complicated logistics chains. Many of the OEMs are no longer around. Maintaining 1980s tech is hard. Maybe ordering its replacement 10 years earlier and building at s sensible rate would have helped. Oh and a crew would help, a lot.

          • My modern car is 80s it’s simple to maintain compared to the modern crud. My older cars are even easier and are older than me, and I am ancient now

          • A frigate is not a car and the type T23 has a CODLAG propulsion system…that’s as complex as they get even by todays standards of propulsion….RN ASW frigates are expensive as hell because of quieting, systems and very complex propulsion…that’s two quite 1.5mw electric motors connected to the shafts…with the electric motors powered by 4 Diesels at 1.3MW each ..it then has a pair of 34,000hp RR gas turbines attached for high speed dashing…..these are not easy to repair or heath Robinson without parts.

          • Engines and prop Motors before we even consider the other Marine Engineering Kit ( I won’t do WE Dept because that will be even longer!)
            HVAC Systems
            Chilled water plants
            RO Plants
            Gearboxes
            Fuel System
            SFC’s and Conversion Machinery
            Shafts
            Props
            Stabs
            Hull valves
            Oil Coolers
            Vent Fans
            Fridge Systems
            Galley
            Uptakes
            Steering Gear

            And of course, the Hull plate, stiffeners, longies etc

          • So? Whatever the issues I can certainly say that if I was in the navy at the moment I would be comfier fighting a russian ship from a ship, even an old and slightly leaky ship, than by swimming across the north sea in my longjohns with a knife between my teeth.

          • Yep ships and boats are not cars….that’s why I get a professional to sort mine out.

          • The Type 23 hulls have been worked hard and during the LIFEX program lots of unexpected issues surfaced .
            HMS Westminster needed substantial structural work done on the hull , I believe that that several hull braces had to be removed.
            Basically the MoD screwed up by delaying the type 26 program by 10 years .
            And things are not going to get better because there will be even less money going forward because of the black hole in public finances which who ever wins is going to have to tackle.

          • Modern cars have been deliberately designd to require proffesional repairs, at least according to my mechanics c 20+ years ago.

          • Lol Dave, my car is 1996 and still going strong too! Manual, low tech, has a bit of rust in a few places but works, like me! 😂

          • It seems from reports I read yesterday that the F35s nice and high tech have to keep rebooting their systems in the face of jamming from russian less advanced, less good, less wonderful and a whole lot cheaper aircraft…. ffks what the hell is going on, is it that difficult to protect your computer systems from electronic interference using something like a faraday cage? People dont believe it cant fly near a thunderstorm, seems it probably cant. Bring back the harriers, at least they worked.

        • I agree totally, the yanks gave us old destroyers in ww2 not fit for war most of them but we still made good use of them Evan as bloody breakwaters… And the Campbeltown….. If it can ram something it’s good 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

      • That’s a shame. Bring on the T26 /T31s.
        I Wonder if the UK has offered the T31 /A140 to the Phillipines after success with selling two to Indonesia? The former is getting news ships from Korea and Japan so they’ll be competition and from others. Even the B2 Rivers, licence build by Thailand but no further sales to any other countries?

    • But they won’t, the civil service love Russia and most likely china as they seem to want to make sure everything comes from china, the land od slave labour, genocide and rocketing co2 emissions

      • Oh? Sorry mate, explain. What do we keep hearing, have a sovereign capability? So jobs, equals money into the wider economy and tax.
        Employ people.

        • Yup a decades long argument that one which never seems to be resolved, it’s a bit like the facts presented to suggest we are either the fastest growing current economy (as once again Rishi amazingly did) or the slowest competing with Russia for the crown.

    • I thought that Environmental Standards had something to do with it – cheaper bids being accepted because disposal costs are lower abroad.

        • Yes those ships will be packed with stuff that will no doubt be totally unacceptable here these days. I wonder if there is asbestos on them it was certainly being used in the 80s in housing.

          • Asbestos lagging isn’t an issue
            The RN went big on removing Asbestos from as much kit as possible decades ago. Even brake pads on gun mounts etc have warning signs on them in case there is dust.
            Everything is recorded in the onboard Haz logs

            However,
            Silica lagging
            Cadmium
            Tantilum
            Fuel, Oils and Grease Various
            Chilled water.

            Paint wise red lead is long gone! However, there was an issue with its replacement, Yellow Chromate, but again that has been replaced years ago. If you do find it when removing paint it can be an issue.

          • Yellow Chromate is still my used by Westland’s (Leonardo) and Boeing. Both Companies are using it until the EU formally bans it. Though I bet it is still used after it’s been banned.

          • I’m astonished!!!

            Chromate based etch primer was superb, lethal, but superb….

            Banned in the motor trade for decades now ..

    • I don’t understand why they can’t go to hartlepool, they have scrapped much more toxic vessels in the past.

      • I believe we import much of the world’s spent nuclear fuel for treatment, why can we not develop a capability for this. We will be dismantling the SSN in time?

    • Very few nations want to scrap ships mate..they are difficult as hell to do and tend to kill off the workforce early with occupational disease and essentially poison the environment they are scrapped in…most western nations tend to send them to more desperate economies..where managing the environmental impacts and occupational disease are less of an issue….

      If your willing to kill off your workforce and don’t care about poisoning the local population there is profit to be made…if you had to do that in the west the environment, population and workforce protection you would have to put in place would make it a cost exercise not a profit one…

      They did a 20 year longitudinal study of ship breakers, 4600ish of them over a 20 year period…around 1000 of them had died of cancer and another 500 had cancer.

      Its one of those nasty little quagmires…although the MOD as with all UK shipowners have to sell the ship to a scrapper who will comply with UK toxic waste disposal…those scrappers in Turkey will not take the same precautions as a UK scrapper would need to.

      • Evening J.
        Trust you to come up with a great health related post like that.
        I’d not considered any of that, or realised just how toxic it is.
        Ok, consider me educated. Thank you.
        Send her on her way, far from these shores.

    • We are capable, but the civil service would rather support jobs and work in other countries. Hell, I just read that we are giving visas to software engineers to come to the UK when I for one, at 60 with 40 years of experience, actually also a PGCE to teach physics to boot, am waiting my interview with Tesco to work their checkout because after 8 months of trying since the last company went bankrupt there is no work for me, none at all. Apparently despite 40 years of experience EVERY company has dozens of people more experienced! The civil service is destroying this country and voting for ANY party that has been in power in cohoots with them in the last 60 years is a disaster. I would love to think, though sadly I doubt, that one party might put in their manifesto that they will deport the entire civil service to Rwanda along with the judiciary.

  5. I hope the government learn from this and start planning for replacement ships much earlier . T26 and T32 will be along eventually but I. The meantime the navy has been left with a capability gap . How many frigates is it down to now , 9 is it ? Shockingly low numbers

  6. The stated aim of one new vessel into service as one leaves has clearly not been achieved. Curious to understand why. Where is our media asking these questions.

  7. 14 years. No one can blame Labour on this one.

    Failure full stop on the Cons who keep conning.

    No, Labour will be just as shit.

    • Sadly it seems to be endemic in this Coutry, what a depressing state our governance is, the few politicians of competence and gravitas seem to be leaving indeed mostly left the stage. A cabal runs our local politics in Enfield MPs suspended and I see that only spreading further and deeper in National politics. I mean when a Green Councillor shouts Allahu Akbar upon victory anything seems possible.

    • Agreed. Our Frigate force is dropping as the Tories procrastinated in 2010 in getting on with the new builds.
      However, if Westminster is going to be in refiit for several years then it makes sense not proceeding. Saves money and the first of the replacements will be available.
      Posters are talking as if this is am operational, available asset.
      It’s not.
      Argyll was, that is the problem.

      • Argyll is the really irritating one…although I would say that..geopolitically 2027-30 is the very hot time..so if they could have got Westminster refitted for that period..they should have done so..

    • The push to scrap 3 x T23 frigates, 3x T42s, 4 SSNs, 6 MCMVs and reduce T45 numbers from 12 to 8 , came from Admiral West who is now a Labour Peer…just saying!

      I was on one of the T23s that he announced was going. I had spent the previous year, six months of which was on a Gulf deployment, putting together the OTSWP work package for our dry docking and refit. We, the Engineers knew what was coming before the CO, as Abbey Wood told us to not bother with the work package because it wasn’t going to happen…

      This one from him never gets old…

      “We must continue the shift in emphasis away from measuring strength in terms of hull numbers and towards the delivery of military effects… I am confident that these changes will leave the Navy better organised and equipped to face the challenges of the future.” 1St Sea Lord July 2004

    • I guess with Healey being just weeks away from defence secretary he can reverse this, speed up T26/T31 builds or he can do what the Tories did in 2010 shrug his shoulders and say its the previous governments fault. Me moneys on the latter

    • You do realise she’s going into refit, is in shit state, and replacements, the first of 13, will be available by the time she has been refitted.
      This is not an operational asset.

      • I agree but when when we,ll see the order for the type 32 ? , if not the number of escorts will be ridículous anyway.

        • This is SOP for HMG. A new low, 19 escorts after SDSR 2010, becomes the benchmark.
          We need mid 20s, yes, though I’d prioritise aviation, RFA, and SSN over more escorts.
          Oh, and retention! Get more people first.

          • I thought 32 was the lowest escort numbers needed. Sorry 28, oh no it’s 25, oh oops I meant 19, oh dear my mistake 17, nope 15 to meet all requirements.
            I suppose one thing is the rivers are doing the patrol stuff.

          • It was 32 after SDSR 98, then 31. Then 28, with the 3 T23 going, then 23, with 11 T42 replaced by 6T44, then 19, now 15.
            Relentless eh.

          • I honestly think the 98 defence review was that last honest one that really looked at the requirements of a post Cold War world…the numbers should never have gone lower that 30….it’s such a sad debate that people now consider anything above 19 as the realms of fantasy fleets…when even 24 is far less that we should have for the world we live in.

          • And instigated by someone who after leaving the post as 1st Sea Lord became an advisor to Gordon Brown…West…

          • Yep. I see you’ve retold your story further up. I recall it well.
            Good to remind people here just who it was who started dismantling the RN

            He still raises his head now and then moaning, I see its him and ignore.

          • I would go with around 32 escorts as the minimum.

            Now to find the sailors – I have an idea, National Service.

            The irony that there are so many wishing to enlist and then held at arms length by Crapita is appalling. What a load of bollards.

          • David mate. I didn’t know this for a while, either, but Crapita are doing army. RAF and RN is not Capita.

          • That’s me educated! Saw a senior RN bod on YouTube talking about how recruitment was broken!?

            Lost!

          • Yes, I’d read Crapita have the Army but not the RN RAF contract.
            Now, if they still use AFCO or another private entity I’m uncertain.

          • You just say britain needs you lads and they WILL be there, the real british still exist just not in politics.

        • Wouldn’t hold your breath on T32. Incoming ( labour) govt might decide alternative spending priorities e.g. service pay, numbers, accommodation, MRSS numbers, Typhoon numbers ….job creation?

  9. Have the Chileans expressed any interest in acquiring decommissioned RN T-23s? Would presume the only other coworker of T-23s would be interested in a spares source. 🤔

    • I think these ones are absolutely knackered. Cheaper to build a new one. They need so many hull fixes and the ships were designed with an 18 year service life so don’t have maintenance hatches, easy access etc. for example the fuel tanks don’t have access as they were expected to need maintenance

      • Wow, so not even a good source for replacement components? Is the approximate terminology STOBAR (uncertain re acronym)?

        • STOROB- Only applicable if the ship is still commissioned and the process is controlled by Fleet HQ.
          Process to get parts off a ship up for disposal is a little different and you go through different channels ( DILSUP)

          • Thanks, appreciate the explanation. 😊
            Presume that w/in your answer is the implicit assumption that after DILSUP is completed, there would be little/nothing Chileans could realistically reuse? 🤔

      • Fuel tanks have access hatches. I have been in them! As do the fresh water tanks, ballast and lube oil tanks. Its a mandated Lloyds task to inspect them. The tanks under the winch well where the WO and CPOs beer stowage for deployments.

        Plenty of shipping routes on them although some where ill thought out. Taking the Port Fwd DG out means dismantling the galley. To avoid that you take the stbd engine out from below the temp fridge and then fleet the port engine across the AMR to stbd and then out. The upper deck access did require the deck to be cut out but it was designed from the outset for that.

        T22 had hydraulic actuated Mcgreggor hatches that opened up from the AMRs all the way up to the upper deck(4 deck to 01 deck) Great for access but there where major issues with water leaking past them and cracking around the frames. Being on 1 deck and seeing daylight appear and disappear through a crack in a huffing big steel stiffener as the ship flexed in a sea way was a little disconcerting…

  10. Tobe honest I don’t care how rotten she is, she is at least afloat. If the navy really don’t want her then fill her through of illegals and sdu.p her off Africa

  11. She is broken, the refit will take so long and cost so much that it doesn’t make sense to fix her. By the time she’s back in service her replacement will be here. Sad but unfortunately where the navy is.

  12. The reality is that Westminster was never designed or built for over 30 years in service, and when the bill to her keep going for another commission was apparently approaching that of new build T31 – well its hard not to dispute the decision. The real crime that in the late 2000’s no C1/C2 Future Surface Combatants were ordered, despite the 7th & 8th T45’s being cancelled specifically to free funds for this.

  15. Hopefully the incoming government will halt this madness and put ships into care and maintenance. We need hulls in the water and the lead time for a Type 26 is years. A lot more than it will take to train a crew. The politicians continue to tell us how dangerous the world is becoming while, happily proceeding if peace and love has broken out globally.
    I am hoping( praying) that this madness will stop.

  16. Over 20 years of distinguished service. A chance to remember and praise credit her crews and builders. But all good things come to an end. Roll on HMS Glasgow.

  17. So more RN downsizing then at a time when having a deployable powerful navy with adequate escort warships was never more important. Bravo Tory HMG. well done.
    15 years in government and the RN is now 6 destroyers, 2 carriers, is it 9 available frigates now? or is my maths wrong? almost no MCM ships left, new MCM motherships …only 2 in service. No word of a 2nd batch of type 31s, no additional type 26 orders, despite unit price dropping substantially, no word of type 32 frigate programme.
    Our conventional forces are not going to deter many people- least of all our enemies Iran, China, Russia, North Korea.
    Without the USA in NATO we would be really up against it. Lets hope Trump doesn’t get in and pull the US out of NATO.

  18. If it’s surplus, instead of paying to chip it up, sell it off to Ukraine. I’m sure they could really use one or two.

  20. It’s not the MOD at fault. it’s the dumb politicians who’s only world view is ‘can I get elected again’ – and we’ve just seen that most of a certain party have decided to walk away. What does that say about our government.

    Now I know why you should be afraid of clowns

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