Rocket artillery systems from a number of NATO members have practised synchronising their fire during Dynamic Front 2022, a US-hosted artillery live-fire exercise held in Germany.
NATO say here that during the exercise, Multiple-Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS) from Slovakia, the United Kingdom and the United States were used to perform fire missions under the command of a multinational higher headquarters, played this year by the UK-led Allied Rapid Reaction Corps (ARRC).
“This is made possible by the Artillery Systems Cooperation Activities (ASCA), a software programme that links artillery batteries from different countries to a centralised, multinational command and control centre. Currently, nine NATO Allies participate in this programme, including Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Türkiye, the United Kingdom and the United States.
The Slovak and US armies strengthened their cooperation by joining forces in the field: soldiers from the US Army’s 1-41 Field Artillery Battalion acted as a fire control centre for a battery from the Slovak 54th MLRS battalion, receiving and passing on fire missions. The US soldiers were part of the forces deployed to Europe in early 2022 after Russia invaded Ukraine.
Additionally, Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTACs) from NATO invitee Finland worked alongside JTACS from the Czech Republic and Spain to direct the artillery fire while also calling in simulated air strikes from the US Air Force fighters.”
Dynamic Front 22 featured MLRS systems that several NATO Allies have donated to Ukraine, including the M270 and the RM-70.
Considering the success of these MLRS systems in Ukraine, is it likely the UK will purchase more units and possibly have a renewed emphasis on increasing artillery in general?
Sadly I see no evidence of increased UK defence funding as a consequence of lessons from this war.
What about the 2.5% of GNP announcement ?
That doesn’t cover the increase due to Defence Inflation…
Maybe but going from 2.1% to 2.5% of GNP is an increase in defence spending ?
Which makes a pleasant change from cash cuts….
Only if the economy isn’t shrinking.
As I recall it said that expenditure would rise to 2.5% by 2030, which could mean that there is no change to current %age spend until 1 Jan 2030. Also it was a promise by BoJo – so do we believe it? and will his successor feel bound to it?
Well Sunak as Chancellor would have to have signed off on 2.5% and Truss has said 3% by 2030. But you have a point. If you think everything from a politicians mouth is a lie then everything they say is worthless.
To me it’s the 2030 date that is telling. If there was any serious plan to increase it then it would be now. They also have given no reason to justify 2030, such as aligning with the next sdsr etc. The only thing that I can guess is it’s aligned with the election after next, in other words well after who ever is PM is long gone and for someone else to work out how it would be affordable.
It’s equivalent to £20bn p/a extra. That’s not going to happen in 1 year. See my answer above to Graham. If you believe they always lie then anything they say is worthless.
Agreed, but there wasn’t any statement about it gradually increasing, it was it will increase from 2030. Why will 20b suddenly free up in 2030 but not now, what is the reasoning.
Of course policticans always lie /tell half truths, thats the nature of their gravy train with one eye on getting reelected and half an eye on their piers backstabbing, leaving very little focus on job at hand. But that doesn’t mean they never get stuff done, just means you have to objectively question everything they say to see if it is realistic and what the logic is.
But that doesn’t mean they never get stuff done, just means you have to objectively question everything they say to see if it is realistic and what the logic is.
👍
This cynicism is half the problem. How can an MP hope to be honest and fully transparent when he or she has to communicate nuanced ideas or uncertainty – they get penalised for being evasive and crushed if they get it wrong. And why is it a “gravy train”. Do people come into the role expecting to get rich or hoping to make a difference? I’d argue that for most, there are much better ways at getting rich than becoming an MP and most are motivated by a sense of public service not fraud. Yes, the party system whips individuals… Read more »
Exactly no one in 2030 is going to remember what’s said now or indeed be responsible for keeping that ‘promise’ if they do, it will be put down as an ‘aspiration’ no doubt put off as the next ‘once in a hundred year event’ strikes home.
Well, let’s see. I hope Liz Truss gets in; at least she has the foresight to take defence seriously by increasing to 3% of GDP.
Truss has been saying a lot of stuff about expenditure and taxes that haven’t been budgeted and are clearly not affordable. We will have to hold off until she wins the vote, to see if any of it will actually happen including the 3%.
Perhaps what she’s not saying is she’s going to cut the role of the state elsewhere.
I don’t think there is much left to cut, that is the issue. Pretty much everything has been hollowed out or sold off. Boris and Cummings before were talking about cuts, but could never come up with details of how it could be achieved. Find talking about cuts with vague statements when your in opposition, but in goverment you have to deliver.
Why have the highest tax burden since the second world war, so not sure how there isn’t money available for defense spending. To be honest I don’t see any option out of higher taxes if we plan to fully fund the NHS. Private healthcare costs a fortune so we either pay for it in taxes or have a third world health services. The civil service almost double in size since Brexit and is the tories number 1 target in 5 figure head counts saves. Across the public sector national and local there are huge amount of jobs for jobs sake… Read more »
We also have the highest national debt since the second world war, and the interest payments on that needs to be paid and with the economy not growing we can’t grow our way out of that issue. To be honest, not really sure where the tax money is all going. We have less money flowing into the NHS, we clearly have terrible roads full of pot holes all over the country, national infustructure plans have been slashed, etc etc. Its clear there isn’t spare money, but where it’s going I’m not sure. I suspect too many hair brain ideas like… Read more »
Final Salary pensions, government bloat. While salaries keep rising by small amounts on paper more and more senior titles are created to give people a payrise for doing their existing jobs but the base salary for a teacher or nurse is still quoted in the media despite there being 8 or 9 payscale levels for performing their core job. Billions are paid out to private service companies because they can deliver it cheaper on paper mainly because they so not have to pay 30% of their works who are out on long term sick. Dept is payments is less than… Read more »
I think on the bbc debate it truss said it would be 2.5% by 2026. I didn’t like the answers they gave for supporting Ukraine. Sunak seemed to say we need to step back and take stock and truss kind of said the same.
Now I was only half watching so I could of picked it up wrong. I really hope that they were not meaning to support less? If anything it has to increase or stay the same. If Russia are successful all bets are off for all our futures.
It is interesting that a lot of quite credible economists say that it is actually affordable. What makes little sense is Rishi’s linear accounting – things don’t follow straight lines and it makes perfect sense to allow for the economic effects of forward guidance anticipate those effects This mainly has a big effect on business investment and things like the super deduction do make a difference but so then to does have a lower corporation tax level. The real big elephant in the room is that SME’s can’t actually borrow money at sensible rates and the RLS does nothing to… Read more »
I haven’t seen any serious ecomomist say it’s affordable. I have seen vague statements in the head lines of the papers supporting her but never backed up anything.
She is by and far the party favourite, so we will soon find out if she can deliver.
3% may not sound a lot, but it is a 42.8% increase compared to the current Defence Budget. Interestingly Truss has also said that she will review the defence cuts if elected.
The problem is GDP means nothing, you need to look at it as a percentage of tax revenue, where it’s around 5.2%, which is more than we pay in the police.
Review is polictical spin for do nothing but sound like you will.
The way as i see it is after years of political indoctrination from the left of the political spectrum the Conservatives are history and will be consigned to the political wilderness for the rest of most of the peoples here natural. The left who will replace them will in turn set about remaking the world as their wonk mindset sees fit. First thing to go will be the UKs nuclear deterrent. There will make a huge song and dance about how nuclear weapons make the world a much unsafer world and that they will make the first step into making it… Read more »
That’s a lot to get off your chest considering this is a post about rocket firepower. Labour isn’t run by the far left, Corbyn had his shot twice and failed, his opinions on foreign and defence are quite different to the current Labour leadership’s who want to increase defence spending and back deterrent. Moreover, wanting to treat people with kindness and compassion and acknowledging the contributions of people who have been overlooked in the past is not incompatible with also wanting a strong military to stand up to dictators (who happen to have poor track record on LGBT issues and… Read more »
SD:
“”That’s a lot to get off your chest considering this is a post about rocket firepower.””
It really would help if you understood I replied to the question posed, which was:
And not what you think i did
You went into a ramble about the “political indoctrination” and did not confine yourself to “rocket Firepower”. I can understand why “SD” thought that way.
FFS another bloke who didn’t read what I wrote ,
I did. That’s what I took away from it. Maybe it’s you who should be more specific?
Wonk 😀
Really? I’ll put money on the table, i have earned more medals with my name along the edges that you have, why I bet I’ve earned more Nijmegen tin medals than you’ve earned medals. The point I was making which appears to have gone right over your head, is I can’t see the Uk spending money on defence in the future when the real wonks would rather spend it on the people who hate us, transforming men into woh-men and paying reparation to people who have never been slaves. I fully subscribe to the POV that any governments first remit is… Read more »
Knock it off with that shite.
Yes, there are some muppets in the UK who want our nuclear deterrent gone. They are nowhere near power. If, if, Labour win/form a coalition after the next election, even then they won’t touch the nuclear deterrent.
Jeremy Corbyn and Co. are living rent free in your mind.
I was taught at an early age to look at every side of an argument including those you find unpalatable.in which to ensure you never ever underestimate the otherside. There’s a fantastic book written by Gordon R Dickson a sci fi book about a race of soldiers called Tactics of Mistake. Where the founder forces the otherside to always underestimate him. Whist’s it’s a work of fiction, the theory behind the book is outstanding just like how the great Khan outfoxed Shah Muhammad II and took the city of Bukhara by crossing the unpassable Kyzylkum Desert.(now that’s a story) It’s… Read more »
Jay wrote:
Sorry Jay, I was refering to getting a bloke on his knees and battering him around the ring in a different manner than what you are drooling at
Congratulations, you can do martial arts and Western fighting too. So can I. But how is that relevant at all?
Same for the sci-fi. It’s just stories. Dune has some entertaining insights, but it’s also batshit insane (and quite badly written).
Why am I not surprised how the entire message went over your head. Looking at your previous posts I see you bring nothing to the table but vapid digs at people. Maybe you should spend a little more time rereading your tactical aide memoire especially section 5-13 Command responsibility
Farouk, sometimes your answers take my breath away! I mean that in a good way. Given the cyclical nature of British politics it is entirely possible that Labour would win the next general election in 2024 and the Tories could be locked out for at least 2 parliamentary sessions (ie 10 years). However their unilateral nuclear disarmament stance never really took hold. Would it in future? I think many Brits think nuclear deterrent is even more required in the volatile world of crazy Putin etc. I could see big ticket projects biting the dust under Labour but why would Labour… Read more »
Graham, The world has changed these past 30 years and due to the peace dividend resulting from the fall of the USSR, we have people who have never faced war, hunger or even fear. (which doesnt explain all those safe spaces inside universities) Because of this the arts have flourished and with that a growth in political thought that berates the politics of the past (which has resulted in the Uk of today) as oppressive, with a need to reimagine the past into a politically friendly one where historical fact has to be erased. We see that with the likes… Read more »
Just to reinforce my point regards how views are changing here is the offical police responce to the protesters who shut down and damaged the THALEs factory in Scotland the other week: A Police Scotland spokesperson said: “Around 5.20am on Monday, July 11, 2022 police were called to a report of a demonstration within the grounds of a business premises on Linthouse Road, Govan, Glasgow. Officers remain at the scene.“Police Scotland is a rights-based organisation that puts our values of integrity, fairness, respect and a commitment to upholding human rights at the heart of everything we do.“We have a duty… Read more »
It seems to me that the rule of law is being eroded piece by piece by social warriors who feel they can act with impunity as they have ‘right on their side’…their perception of right and justice of course and no one else’s.Somehow it seems that just because a group of people shout louder and are more virtuous than anyone else their views take precedence over the law..aided and abetted by the very legal system we are all expected to follow.Criminal damage…no problem,..breaking and entering … nothing to see here… criminal damage shhhhh we can ignore that.It seems the law… Read more »
I think the protesters worked the law out to work in there favour. I would of thought that the grounds of the business would be they businesses property and that a being in those grounds would grounds for removal. Maybe it’s public land or whatever. Sorry about the different grounds meanings. Those protestors are wonks and should be removed to somewhere to protest without disrupting things. While I see what you write is a worst case scenario hopefully if things went that way most people would not be happy and vote those people supporting that stance out. If any political… Read more »
I don’t disagree that there is a massive communication strategy from geopolitical enemies of the west trying to undermine the west and we need to protect ourselves from that. But this has always been the case. In the interwar periods there was a massive campaign run buy the far right around supporting the third Reich and facist states….but a although it been a thing with some of the upper class elites, the fundamental culture of the nation and centralists politics won out and the Second World War and the defeat of fascism was the highest point in British imperial history… Read more »
I agree with a lot of that Jonathan, it’s easy to exaggerate the differences in our 2 largest parties (they’re quick to do it themselves) but as you say neither like to steer too far from the centre as when they do they get punished for it. While Labour members (some at least) will want rid of nuclear weapons on an ideological level, they will know its a vote loser. Same with the Tories and the NHS so we end up with our broken system that more or less works despite itself. In the meantime, those who enjoys politics for… Read more »
Hi Jonathan, I just want to issue slightly with your analysis – I don’t think what you’ve presented hold true any more and hasn’t done for the last 10 years. Its a long one, please forgive me. The philosophies underpinning the two scourges of the 20thC haven’t gone away but far right fascism has been more or less pushed into a small corner. Woke IS the cultural evolution of the Marxist revolution – it is a direct philosophical child of “scientific materialism”. The aspirations of the cultural revolution, yes there are direct parallels with the Chinese concept for obvious philosophical… Read more »
Nathan you are moving a lot of theories of self and critical theories of freedom and society while making links to Marxist theories. A lot of these links are very much the domain of right wing conspiracy theorists. I’m also not sure how you have managed to link in the theories of Neo liberalism ( which is a right wing theory of market led eccomics to critical theories, which in themselves are not a homogenised group of theories but come from many root views trying to understand the functional make up of human societies. There are always shifts in society,… Read more »
I’m sorry I’m going to call you out on Marry Seacole, there are many contemporary primary sources that made it clear Marry Seacole made a big impact on the wounded in that campaign. Her and Florence Nightingale came from every different world views, But actually even with there very different moral standards they actually both had a deal of respect of each other and Florence clearly wrote and reported that she felt Marry had made a great deal of difference to stage suffering of wounded soldiers. She even when and helped the wounded while under fire. As for labour scrapping… Read more »
Jonathon you are welcome:
The story of MS has been blown out of all proportation to the actual historical fact, In fact I even read one article where FN was catigated for being a racist , but hey thats the way of revisionist history and how they have made a non britian into one of the greatest Britons going:
It’s interesting as there Is no evidence anywhere that Florence was racist, as noted they actually respected each other’s commitment to mitigating suffering, they just had completely different upbringings and moral compasses, Florence was the daughter of a gentleman and social class dictated her behaviours and Marry was as lower class and so they simply had differing standard…I paraphrase Florence she alleviates suffering and does good work but encourages bad behaviour, I don’t want her corrupting the moral standards of my nurses.
FN, from a woke perspective was a beneficiary and part of a system of oppression – as was MS. Even if they never said or behaved in a racist fashion they held and perpetuated beliefs that supported a hierarch of values or institutions that did – like marriage; gender differences; family life et cetera. And since woke is a revolutionary dogma (think Marx): silence WAS violence. Non-revolutionary activity was (is) oppression. So MS was also likely a racist bigot as well as FN. But saying so out loud hurts the cause. This isn’t a revision of history but a philosophical… Read more »
Jonathon you are most welcome, however there is a lot of misinformation about MS here are a few: There are (at least) twelve books available on the life of Mary Seacole geared to children. All of them are wildly wrong on the facts, while not lacking in enthusiasm or praise for their subject. Most have vivid illustrations, but again these typically relay the mythical Mary Seacole, notably as a uniformed hospital nurse. Several have good context in them, but fail on the core material as to what Seacole actually did. Here is a brief overview, in alphabetical order, of what… Read more »
That’s a long one Farouk and I respect a well evidenced answer. Completely agree there are a lot of fairy tails out there that never really show the context. The reality is nursing as a proffesional did not exist then, the concept of care as a way to treat ill health was simply your family or mates did the best they could and you lived or died, there was no science behind it at all. Both Florence and Marry were sort of making it up and trying to find out what worked. Florence came at from a common sense clear… Read more »
almost everything possible apart for the NHS going private, this country is not willing to pay for the cost of private market driven healthcare. Even at the ideological drive hight the conservatives have never actually figured out how to fully develop a private market driven healthcare system. Just for clarity I don’t mean state owned, I mean state run, which is not the same… as a good chunk of the nhs is not state owned and the NHS has always been an interlocking set of private, public and third sector organisations that work under a single brand banner and government… Read more »
I think you may be wrong, there are several Health Systems and Health Insurance models used in Europe that work very much better than the failed NHS
Unfortunately Jonathan, it’s becoming increasingly clear that many aspects of the NHS simply don’t work. ‘Huge’ sums of money are spent every year, with billions in additional cash injected regularly, yet throwing all this money at the problem never actually seems to fix it. What is it now, a staggering 12%GDP for the NHS I believe!! Yet every single year, as far back as I can remember it’s “the NHS in Crisis” screamed from the roof tops…. So what is the answer? Could it be the break up of the NHS, with all hospitals being private businesses, but treatment paid… Read more »
Hi john, interestingly since 2011 the GDP percentage to the nhs slipped back, to just below 9%. The 13% gdp was the total to the DOH for all the covid work, not funding to the NHS ( the NHS gets about 66% of the total DOH funding). We are still the second lowest spender on healthcare of the G7 nations, all our meanful peers spend more ( Germany, France ect). The simple truth is our health system is failing but not through anything it has any control over: 1) we are the second most unhealthy nation on Earth ( US)… Read more »
I wouldnt right off the conservatives just yet. Labour is already having in fighting and it wouldn’t take much for them to split into factions and for starmer to lose any advantages he got from the Boris mess.
Most of the papers support the conservatives and they are happy reporting to help it look like the whole world is having equal economic issues, which is objectively not true but when do facts come into polcitics.
I see no reason to be so negative. HIMARS etc are actually pretty cheap – well until the MOD produce a Gucci version. Off the shelf it would not be a big deal to have a decent number. Given the damage that less than 10 are doing ATM 75 units would do it? The real key is in the depth reloads which needs to be NLAWS like. The other lesson that hasn’t quite sunk in, is that carp tanks with carp tactics are useless but decent tanks with decent tactics would be very useful. Unless Sunak gets in there is… Read more »
Yes I don’t think there is political voice that says anything other than an increase is needed, it’s more a question of scale and pace at present. Most people now seem to accept Many decades of geological, mercantile and physical conflict with China and Russia as well as allies is inevitable .
Agree defence spending needs to go up. The West has to have the military capability to face down and if necessary defeat Russia and China combined.
Most intelligence forecasts point to China launching an invasion of Taiwan in the early 2030s and after Taiwan is captured and throttled to death then who knows what China will next do. Try to settle some old grievances vs Japan and South Korea potentially.
Hi SB. Perhaps my cynicism is drawn from 34 years of experiencing defence cuts. HIMARS launchers may be cheap but would weeks and weeks of ammo be? I agree that we need more rocket arty and HIMARS has a great reputation. Yes we should buy some! I agree that Truss is more likely than Sunak to increase defence spending in the short term. Our luck may be in!
Graham, as part of the previous uplift there are pending equipment programmes for Land, with billion plus funding streams. CAAM, CAAM ER, SHORAD, more Boxer, and so on.
As the army benefitted from that uplift more than the other services there will be announcements forthcoming.
UKAFC blog has outlined these.
Hi Daniele, talking of things GBAD, I just read somewhere yesterday, I think it was on Janes, that LM UK are looking at integrating the Israeli mixed interceptor Barak into their UK GBAD system. I was wondering why don’t MBDA do a mixed CAMM/ CAMM- launcher a bit like Iron Dome x15 launcher?
Even integrating Starstreak/HVM, both ER of course, into the Phalanx/RAM type mount could be a goer for the RN. Seems like lots of opportunities going missing or other countries taking the lead with these things.
*CAMM/CAMM-ER
“why don’t MBDA do a mixed CAMM/ CAMM- launcher a bit like Iron Dome x15 launcher?”
I’ve no idea, that sort of question is beyond me.
All good. It was kind of an open question on top of all my previous rants about GBAD. We’ll just have to wait and see what eventuates or not.
As Def Sec has already stated simply pouring money in as of tomorrow: it wouldn’t be spent well.
A planned ramped increase is what is needed with some front load for cost capped capital programs.
As you rightly say there are funded capital programs in place. Given the success of NATO missiles in Ukraine I am confident that Army are right, see I said that, that CAMM and CAMM-ER will do a great job.
Any increase has to be spent wisely. Up front increase for new kit or speeding up existing programs where there is capacity and a plan would be ok.
I wondered what system shot down the 2 cruise missiles heading to Odessa?
Daniele, you are referring to the extra £24bn over 4 years announced in Nov 2020? Fair enough but that was to plug pre-existing equipment capability gaps and was announced 15 months before the Russo-Ukraine war.
I can’t find that blog – can you assist?
Hi Graham. Yes, I am.
UKAFC is United Kingdom Armed Forces Commentary. Otherwise known as Gabriel’s blog. He knows his onions, I’ve followed his site for years as religiously as this one.
If you go back a bit on his tweets he lists lots of upcoming goodies in the equipment plan with serious money committed to them. 1000 plus Boxer is likely with varied weapon fits and extra AD.
unfortunately not only do we show no sign of expanding but also thiere is no sign of replacing what we have donated.
Boxer modules will probably cover many systems, Brimstone , 155mm, 120mm mortar ,Spear 3, or AA guns have been mooted, so it might not be difficult to mount a HIMARS like pod on one. It would be far cheaper to buy a truck mounted system like HIMARS rather than wheeled or the possible tracked option of Boxer though. I read a pod of 6 missiles costs £800k, Precision strike will be expensive. Rather than more systems, more ammo stock might be a more pressing need. Germany and MBDA are developing a 500km max range stealthy cruise missile to fire from… Read more »
I forgot about the Boxer and the modular flexibility it will offer. I’m sure a variant of HIMARS could be mounted? I just think artillery is still a potent and vital part of the battlefield and the UK appears not to hold enough assets? On the subject of MLARS, I’ve seen a few in private hands, which I find a touch odd?
David,
This geezer knocked out an interesting read on the Boxer
Thanks for the link.
Back in the mid 00’s we had two artillery systems based on trucks that were eventually canceled. Light Weight Mobile Artillery System (Gun)(Rocket) LIMARS (G) & (R). Both were based on on the HIMARS vehicle but built by Supacat in a 6×6 & 6×4 configuration. The (R) version – 6 rocket pod, was able to be transported by a Chinook, while the (G) version based on the M777 155mm gun required 2 due to the weight. They both got shit canned in the late 00’s and we decided to upgrade 12 M270 MLRS to B1 standard instead. Why not be… Read more »
Why not be radicle and just dust down the original design, add any updates required, can’t be that expensive!!!!!
The Army and MoD ‘hold my beer’ 😎😎
We do seem to like to make things as difficult as we possibly can don’t we…..
I have read articles that suggested that LIMARS was stripped down to the bare minimum weight limit with limited ground clearance that meant in fact a supacat would lack any decent mobility. The issue is that although a Chinook might lift one and a single pod, as ukraine is showing they need lots of ammo , otherwise they are just a waste. Supplying one by air would prove a headache, much more complex than 105mm guns for instance. Just buying HIMARS would have been simpler and forget helo mobility. HIMARS could be landed by the Royal Marines LCU, or moved… Read more »
I wouldn’t know about the weight issue, but do know that both types were trialled over several years with the aim being mobility for our light forces including 16AMB, hence the Chinooks.
Agree that development could and should have probably gone further before getting canned.
I believe there is no need to reinvent the wheel for n this regard, just dust down said plans and update what’s required – surely cheaper and quicker then trying to develop and integrate requirements onto things such as Boxer et al’……
We already have 40+ units of M270 MLRS (minus what we sent to UKR). I think a better use of any funding would be to make sure the remaining are kept upgraded, have sufficient modern ammunition stocks and being part of the US Precision Strike Missile program. Would rather focus was directed to the AS90 and sorting out the basics like Ajax and Warrior replacement. Its going to take Russia a long long time to recover from the losses in Ukraine and it’s now very obvious they are overmatched for any NATO land or air encounter.
Agree Ajax most be sorted or drop going on far to long 👍
It was already part of the army’s new plans before Ukraine to increase MLRS numbers.
John, Warrior replacement is Boxer.
Just before the war the decision was taken to refurbish the UK’s M270 and upgrade them to the latest A2 standard. Before the war the US was considering focusing more on HIMARS and only upgrading a small number of M270 (50 contracted) but in May it placed an additional order for a couple hundred more conversions.
Long range precision fires is one of the Armies key weakness at present and Ukraine has shown that fires are still the decider on the battlefield so I would hope that’s one of the key wins the army get from any uplift.
When we see what Ukraine is managing with just a few HIMARS it shows the power of these precision weapons.
Also for those interested there is a wealth of information about the U.K. M270 on this website.
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/guided-multiple-launch-rocket-system-gmlrs/
It would be sensible, so there’s not a chance of it happening.
Well sadly they are no longer made, I remember a few years ago a debate in the press about our MLRS needing urgent updates, no idea if there is or was a plan at all to do so, or whether HIMARS has ever or is being considered, probably not. Don’t expect any news any time soon, I’m sure we will need yet another defence revue and no doubt ask Putin and Xi to hold off until we restock our pea shooters not to mention ceremonial swords and bearskins. Gotta look good on parade don’t ya know.
The vexed issue of guns over health is drawing perilously closer for the UK Government. No matter how dried up Putin’s forces become the mere fact he’s prepared to fight for years, and at the same time threaten neighbours, will require a shift to Cold War defence spending. Many European countries will face a similar question, especially if China flexes its military might? Germany faces recession due to crippling gas supply issues, yet has committed to a huge defence budget. Realistically, there will be more UK money but the MOD/Army has made a complete Horlicks of its procurement programmes, it… Read more »
Would be interesting to find out if Russia’s GPS jamming has had any affect on the GMLRS accuracy.
The dispersal of launchers over a wide frontage would probably negate jamming, I also believe that the jamming of GPS would hinder the Russians as much as it would hinder NATO or Ukrainian Forces.
I’ve read reports that much Russian equipment has been found with civilian GPS receivers taped into cockpits/Turrets.
I’m aware of that, their allocation of GPS receivers in their FVs/Platforms isn’t as widespread as ours. They’ve got around that problem by purchasing Civilian GPS Receivers, those receivers are more than likely to be Western in origin, if you were a GOC of a poorly trained and equipped Division would you opt to jam the very devices that are assisting your poorly trained vehicle Commanders?
Probably not much.
There will be more than simple GPS anyway.
Let’s put it this way: your phone has got inertial on it…..
What might happen when the GPS signal in messed with?
Does the missile give up and go home?
Or does something else kick in to finish the job off?
Weapons that easily messed with are pretty useless in a real battlefield. The thought process might be ‘what would I do to mess that up?’ and then making sure that it doesn’t work.
Russias GPS jamming capability involves opening the doors of 3 stolen zanussi washing machines and hoping for the best.
Possibly because that would amount to a direct attack on NATO?
Dumbest and most ignorant comment in this comment section.
1. It would be a direct attack on the US and NATO.
2. It would violate what is a legal (though effectively gentlemen’s) agreement to not persecute war in space.
3. It would certainly lead to other countries taking out Russia’s GLONASS and perhaps even China’s Beidou for good measure.
Glonass is about as good as throwing a pin in a map. If it worked as advertised it would be ok but no where near other systems. As we know Russia’s stuff doesn’t work as advertised. Look at the evidence Russian aircraft flying with gps in them. Jamming Civilian gps is one thing. The secure military is quite another. Russians captured with maps made in 1969 in Ukraine. That shows the level of effort Russia puts in to navigation. Get a civilian device that does gps, glonass and Beidou. Then ask it to just use glonass. It’s not great. Russia… Read more »
Agreed 👍Will they improve, possibly but not in the near future and with economic sanctions which will have a long term effect!
No but they build the same shite as Russia! We all have an opinion, like we all have arseholes!
Put your handbag down Jay R, it’s only a website!
Because Russia knows in any direct military confrontation with NATO there are only two outcomes.
1) NATO wipes the floor with Russia’s military, destroys its industrial military base and inflicts a massive and humiliating defeat. Removing Putin from Power.
2) it goes nuclear and humanity ends.
Russia is so overmatching by NATO it’s not a contest, the only time Putin would gamble with this is if NATO had fractured and failed ( political unity is NATOs only possible weakness).
Do you even have a functioning brain?
I spelt it out for you, and you even agreed, but then still go ‘but still…’.
There is no more ‘but still…’. The reasons I gave are why Russia won’t be shooting down anybody else’s satellites.
Do they pay you in roubles or potatoes?
What!? That little so-and-so isn’t getting mine!
Top loading with a mangle! Some on here will remember others won’t 😂!
Because Russian tech is outdated and unable to improve! Their space programme is out of date, out of money and out of interest! Yes they have a certain capability but so do little western private sector companies, with minuscule amounts of money and people compared to Russia, and able to throw dozens of satellites into orbit! Nope, Russian tech, at this time and for the last 20 years is a busted flush!
That’s going to trigger a no hold bars massive retaliatory strike on Russia infrastructure. In fact the US could very well consider it a first step in a nuclear strike scenario. Russia would be more likely to invade a Baltic state than start taking out US spaced based assets.
GPS is important but nearly all systems can operate without it. Nobody had GPS 30 odd years ago and managed just fine. To take out GPS would involve hitting multiple satellites as just taking out 1 or 2 can be worked around. Then there’s the hope there aren’t spares in space and on the ground that can be launched. Also if GPS is attacked then everyone is at the same disadvantage. So it’s an even playing field again. In fact it could end up your enemy depended on GPS more than you. Once a GPS satellite is hit you could… Read more »
The Ukraine war has descended into an artillery war. That lesson needs to be learnt by NATO and it’s member states need to invest more in artillery (and counter artillery) as there is no guarantee that we will enjoy the same freedom in the air in peer conflicts as has been the case in foreign interventions during the last three or four decades.
Well judging the stonking success of Ivans air defence system in Ukr where after 100+ days they still dont have air superiority then the only other player is China. Ukr doesn’t have the same combined arms capability of NATO so comparing and applying whats happening in Ukr to NATO strategy isnt rational. There is no Air superiority, ARMs/SEAD, deep strikes being undertaken by either side in Ukr on the scale that NATO is capable of delivering constantly, 24/7.Using ivans performance with conventional forces they would cease to exist in probably a week against NATO. That includes at sea, in the… Read more »
Agree in regard to Arty and OS, but not so in the air dimension! NATO do have and should continue to have superior platforms and networking to control the air from early on in a peer conflict! However we must never rest on our laurels and always seek to develop the next tech, the next capability to ensure we maintain the ability to dominate. However one thing NATO must learn, is that all nations need to be prepared to take losses and carry on despite this! Cheers.
The main lesson is that HiMars is working and NATO needs to invest in more systems like this, where the enemy artillery is out-ranged and outclassed in accuracy.
The other lesson is Russia uses very hamfisted tactics i.e flattening everything in their path with artillery which will surely lead to a shortage of ordinance given the size of Ukraine.
We’re already there. A Ukrainian Lieut Col in the east has seen a 90% fall in Russian shelling in his area in the past week.
I thought you all would be interested to learn that all does not appear to be well with the M31 MLRS round. Over the weekend three unexploded rockets were found at the site of the shelling in Krasny Luch presenting Russian experts with the opportunity to fully examine the warheads and hull fragments, which were dated 2019. In total 6 missiles were fired at the city giving a 50% failure rate. This is one of the rounds. https://i.servimg.com/u/f11/20/43/69/82/img_2040.jpg So, what will the Russians do with them? Based on previous occurrences, Russian military specialists will order a full size replica of… Read more »
Oh, you’re back? Been on a short holiday?
Why is it you have nothing but negative things to say about the ‘West’, NATO, etc.? Do you think you are being ‘balanced’?
Why is it you felt the need to write three whole paragraphs of the obvious? Russia are analysing fragments of missiles fired at them? You don’t say! Do you think this didn’t cross the minds of the ‘Western’ allies of Ukraine sending them?
And how about a condemation of Russia’s war crimes in Ukraine while you’re at it?
As you ask yes, kind of, at the VBOA car show over the weekend on Sywell airfield just outside Northampton. I relay back items that might be of interest, like this one. Inevitably they are one sided as I leave the positive news on the Ukrainian side to our press and TV. Anyway the conflict is in overall a bit one sided so not sure how ‘balanced’ comes into it. There seems to be a view amongst some here that the Russians are, how shall I put it, a bit limited in their technical abilitiy, so I thought I would… Read more »
They are! They may improve over time as they realise we in the west realise how horse shite they are! But at the moment your Russkie mates are still shite, corrupt and not quite understanding that illegal invasions are not acceptable to the sensible and grown up fee world! Anyway about that condemnation?
You’ve been on “the Warzone, the drive” since 2015 pushing out the same shit haven’t you, but using more extreme communist Soviet Union propaganda pages, haven’t yiy Johnskie boy!
JIMK wrote: There seems to be a view amongst some here that the Russians are, how shall I put it, a bit limited in their technical abilitiy, A view? Russia which spends more in one year on its military than what the Ukraine has done these past 22 years entered the ring on the 24th of February 2022 as the second most powerful nation on the planet. Which has spent the past 22 years upgrading its armed forces to the most modern standards going On paper Moscow completely outmatched the Ukraine, its SOP is for quick military advances based on… Read more »
To be fair I don’t think many people really considered Russia to be the second most powerful nation in the planet ( that’s China) it’s a one trick pony and that’s its nuclear arsenal ( which is essentially nothing more than a dead man switch, to keep the other side honest, same as the. west’s). It’s an economic basket case, propped up by oil with a declining population. I would put it behind the U.K, Japan and France in geopolitical power In regards to Ukraine it was alway going to have to be a decapitation move or a drawn out… Read more »
He’s been on holiday due to been unable to find anything positive about Russia since the last post.
I’m interested in all things military but the gloating way of writing about like a Russian fan boy on a uk defence site is pointless.
He has been posting on othe sites since 2015, to include the “Warzone” on the drive! Even more communist propaganda in use, Farouk clocked him and he hasn’t mentioned or replied to Farouk or anyone about it! He has been caught out AGAIN!
It is like we are meant to be worried that MLRS tech will fall into Russian hands.
I’ll leave the worrying to the experts in NATO/DoD/MoD who weigh up the pros and cons of these things.
Right on que with the latest laughable Russian propaganda. Check all the pro Kremlin bot accounts on twitter and they’re all pushing this story. Even if there was any truth to it, based on what we have seen from the Russian military, I don’t think the US has anything to worry about. Try harder to cope.
Care to comment on the supposedly world beating S-300 that got wiped away by himars?
Do you dispute that it is a M-31 round in the photo?
Not at all. Why are Ukrainian photographs always fake and yours utterly verifiable? Do you dispute these plain facts? Putin’s invasion has been an abject failure (excepting for the massive strengthening of N.A.T.O., ironically one of the reasons Putin said motivated his attack on a sovereign nation)? That tens of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians have died or suffered appalling injuries as a result of his reckless gamble? That the economic and social outcomes medium and longer term will be to the detriment of Russians? A new Cold War? Is that what security for the Motherland amounts to? Are you… Read more »
Both mate! But as a controlled troll with Putins nonce leash around his neck he spews the party line!
I do not know. What makes you so sure it is and what makes you think anything valuable can be gleaned from the fragments in the pictures you all are pushing?
Also, you all from the pro kremlin crowd have be claiming the Russian Tornado is superior to himars, so what’s the point of even bothering when you supposedly have something better already?
next point is Russian tech seems so rubbish that I doubt they could actually do something useful the little bits they found.
I’m also asking once again, any comment on the S-300?
The S-300, also known as whirlpool washing machine of 90s design and tech! Good for washing women and kids blood from Russian rapists cheap uniforms!
I don’t think I have mentioned Tornado. You bother if you want to analyse its characteristics so that you can I/D it in the future, as I explained.
The S-300 is mobile but not quickly and it can’t defend itself against all targets, it needs Pantsir or Tor to protect it and they were not there. So yes, one less S-300. If you are monitoring Kremlin accounts you will be aware that some are claiming it was a dummy system used as a decoy, I don’t agree, I think it was real.
Yes, I, Ivan Andersonovich from Sussex Oblast can confirm this happened.
😂😂😂👍
Russia can do whatever they like with them. Systems fail. I would not believe a single word Russia says. That picture is probably a bit of a grad with a washing machine door, a bit of cast iron drain pipe and some other stuff that they could steal from Ukraine. If Russia is so great why would they even bother looking at it. There kit is miles better. Russia lost its last ounce of credibility when it hit Odessa less than 1 day after signing a treaty saying they wouldn’t. Then they say someone else launched kalibr missiles, can’t even… Read more »
One last thing if it’s compromised guess what? We will make a better one.
Agreed, but difficult to put into place when there are 50k rounds out there already, including large numbers already in or on the way to Ukraine.
Yaaaaaaawn, they will all be used up quite soon killing invading Russian rapists and then the west sends more, and more and guess what, even more while no one sends Russia anything and their tech base is incapable of producing fuck all! Now, about this illegal invasion of Ukraine by Putin, any condemnation yet?
Sad to say but that answer is disappointing, even stupid. This is another photo
https://i.servimg.com/u/f11/20/43/69/82/img_2038.jpg
Of course they examine it, they want to I/D it in flight and check out its guidance, not copy it.
As I understand it no-one outside the parties involved know whats in the agreements. As the Russians said, and the photos confirm it, they hit a military part of the port, an estimated 1km from the garin terminal. Current estimates are that the first grain ship could leave in the next week.
Is that your wooden floor??
The big cylindrical thingy looks suspiciously well lubricated.
Yeah. Suddenly it’s becoming clearer why Putin sometimes seems to walk funny….
Lol….and we won’t mention if it comes with “batteries”
😂😂😂
Your quite funny when you try Jay 😂👍
Yaaaaaaawn
Assuming they would indeed “ID it in flight”, what would they counter it with? The sinking of the Moskva to outdated, subsonic missiles gives a hint about Russian abilities in that regard.
My money is on bows and arrows.
JIMK,
It really would help if you posted the main photo of the above which was taken from a tweet regards missile fragments found at the site of the hotel struck over the weekend which took out a Russian command post and killed around 100 Russian soldiers:
https://i.postimg.cc/vHVf8sjq/Opera-Snapshot-2022-07-25-232925-twitter-com.png
taken from the Tweet below
and heres a video of the hotel that Russian Command post was in post strike
If will give the Russians some advice. The M31 flies a shallow ballistic path. You can tell it on your radar screen. It’s the thing flying faster than aircraft. It goes up then down.
The M31 missile is known to have success rate of 98%.
I don’t know how Ukraine launched them. Russia told me they destroyed more HIMARS than Ukraine received. Something fishy going on. Either Russia lies or Ukraine has way more launchers.
Hi MS, trajectory shaping is an option during the fire mission input, high or low. This affects flight time mainly but in High QE the round flies at extreme altitude.
Agreed mate!
Our own Putin spin doctor. Whatever did we do to deserve you? Exciting though isn’t it? Russia is being pulverised with our western systems. You must find some comfort in that? Because we are from around these parts aren’t you …?
Have you seen the Ukrainians? They are not going to weaken. They have 1 million strong forces. Ukraine is still able to produce ammo, weapons and repair and refit loads. Ukrainian su25 are still flying daily missions along with other aircraft etc. I don’t think the west support will weaken. Russia has managed to take 10% of Ukraine in all this time and look at how decimated there forces are. The 20% figure is misleading as they already had 10% at the start on 2022. Kearson will fall in the next few weeks. 1500-2000 Russian troops are surrounded and asking… Read more »
It all depends on how committed the West is to supporting Ukraine, if the money and weapons keep coming I think Russia will end up the strategic loser in the game. Russian advances have stalled and Ukraine is putting pressure on key areas. Russia is loosing materials it cannot replace as well as suffering massive economic damage. We have less than 3 months until the campaign season ends until late spring, so unless Russia find a way to regenerate its forces and go on the offensive within a month or two, it’s all. Bogged down in mud and winter until… Read more »
Geez, are you JohninMK’s mediocre prodigy is something? Or are you another Russian troll just trying a different, slightly softer, approach?
I suppose there’s always the chance that you’re just a bit dim.
Lol, you think this is Vietnam or Afghanistan? There are no Western forces directly involved. As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight (and it looks like they are), then we can and will supply them. It supports a fellow democracy, weakens an adversary, shows other dictatorships we don’t mess around, and is a boon to our arms industries (not just to Ukraine; military spending is massively up all across the board). Russia cannot maintain losses like this. Something will give. Maybe they’ll negotiate something that doesn’t obviously look like a withdrawal. Or maybe others with power in Moscow… Read more »
Others have corrected your slant but for what it is worth, the ‘end game’ (game? Rape and destruction a game?) is simply Russia withdraws, hands over war criminals to the international court and pays reparations to Ukraine. Or they don’t and collapse militarily and socially. Your Finland observation is even more baffling. Do you know anything about Finland? What about Norway? One of the biggest blunders the under powered former spy has made is to galvanise countries that were asleep on watch: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania need no warnings about Russia, but in the south east of Central Europe, Bulgaria… Read more »
Absolutely spot on!
On the contrary, I think Ukraine is mobilising. There are hundreds of thousands of vets since 2014 yet to be incorporated.
NATO won’t get directly involved nor will it end its support.
Yaaaaaaawn horse shit! What the nonce squad will do to them is try to sell them for scrap value and get a few worthless rubels and spuds! Russkie AD network? Ha ha ha ha haaaaaa wow your head shed keeps you on your toes pushing out your shite! As we’re chatting, easy question, is the invasion of Ukraine an illegal invasion or a special military operation?
Not sure if that’s worse, as Belarusians remind me of 70s porn stars!
JIMK wrote:
Thats interesting seeing as i read this about Krasny Luch:
And with that post you condemn your self of having absolutely no idea how radar systems,command system, IR optical tracking systems or missile systems work.
By firing more weapons at a target you increase the chance of a kill which is why most weapons are fired in salvos. If a weapon has a 95 % kill rate the second weapon also has a 95% kill chance against that remaining 5%. In effect it comes out at something like 99.9% kill chance.
PMSL. That post, just like your others are proof that Russian apologists are an irony free zone.
M31 doesn’t have a ‘seeker’.
My tinfoil helmet thinks this was a Ukrainian training exercise in disguise…
From what I have seen Matt, I don’t think the Ukrainians need much training in biffing Putin’s rape squads with their MLRS and whatever.
One of the motivations behind Putin’s Rape of Ukraine was to prevent this sort of thing. Are you paying attention trolls?
😂😂
Your dreaming. You think Russia can sustain this level? What about the Russian troops nearing 6 months deployment wanting a rotation out? Do they have to stay and fight for ever.
It can if the west keeps supporting it. It’s a big county with a large population.
Just a big an iI around Russians ability to keep bleeding men, machines and money.
Ah yes, Russia always intended to advance towards Kyiv in a few days, get bogged down for a month and then withdraw, totally not in humiliation. They also definitely didn’t intend to dig around Chernobyl and get radiation sickness. Oh no.
Go join the sin bin with JohninMK.
Several other comments have pointed out your error. Why so pessimistic? Remember, Ukraine is intended to be the first domino in Putin’s re-vamped western Russian Empire, (read his speeches), not an end in itself.
IMO we should send forces to ensure Ukraine retakes all illegally seized territory & has a secure future. Let Putin & every other dictator know we will not let naked aggression, no matter how well spun, succeed. We could rue the day we failed to act decisively if we let him get away with what he’s trying to do.
Highly effective, game-changing stuff despite what the russian trolls are saying. The UK should order M142 HIMARS to complement the M270 MLRS with some of that increase in the defense budget. Then order a batch of ATACMS for the M270s to stay at standoff range and use the GMLRS for the hi-mobility M142 HIMARS.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/big-south-korea-polish-arms-deal-includes-fa-50-fighters-k2-tanks-k9-howitzers. If true Poland seems to be re-arming at quite an alarming rate.
They have a very strong sense of urgency. Got to give it to the Koreans to pull a deal like this off.
The K2 tanks and the K9 artillery was a good buy. The big surprise for me was the 48 FA-50 aircraft in the deal.
Poland is a great ally to have.
I think the UK is considering the K9 to replace the SA90. Maybe we should look at the K2 too if we ever need to bolster our tank numbers? Doesn’t it have the same RM 120mm smooth-bore as the Challenger 3?
What us slightly embarrassing fir us is that the Pilish will have 200 new K2 MBT by 2024, whereas we will have 149 30yo C3 by 2027ish.. perhaps…
Typhoon ejector seat inspection has finished and they have all been cleared to return to service.
“Türkiye”
This is getting ridiculous. We don’t even have umlauts in English.
Should also note that Turkey do not call us “Britain” so to demand we change our language for them is massively hypocritical. Not that I mind them not. They can call us what they like, literally every country on earth does, but I for one am getting sick and tired of this crap.
Agreed. Modish nonsense.
I agree. What next? Will the French force us to pronounce Paris as Par-ree?
You spelled the pronunciation of Paris wrong my friend, it is pronounced sheeet ‘ole
“sheeet ‘ole”
Having arrived at Gare du Nord to travel across Paris to Gare de Lyon on several occasions this is true. Hold on to your wallet and bags!
While for some targets they do there are situations when rocket artillery is much more useful. It’s best to have a good mix of systems with overlap. For reaction time rockets are great. Cruise missiles take a long time to arrive to target. A M270 gives a 100km circle and any unit that needs help fast within that can radio it and within minutes it’s rockets away.
Different horses for different courses.
One way of increasing Defence spending, (every little helps), would be to move the capital cost of the new Dreadnought submarines from the Defence budget to central funding, as in pre Cameron days.
Not half! The biggest elephant in the room along with pensions.
Pity they didn’t practice firing over the Ukrainian border at certain targets.😁