During a trial at the MOD’s Hebrides Range, the DragonFire laser directed energy weapon (LDEW) system achieved the UK’s first high-power firing of a laser weapon against aerial targets.
The range of DragonFire is classified, but it is a line-of-sight weapon and can engage with any visible target.
- First high-power firing of a laser weapon against aerial targets
- Laser boasts pinpoint accuracy and low long-term costs
“DragonFire exploits UK technology to be able to deliver a high power laser over long ranges. The precision required is equivalent to hitting a £1 coin from a kilometre away. Laser-directed energy weapons can engage targets at the speed of light, and use an intense beam of light to cut through the target, leading to structural failure or more impactful results if the warhead is targeted.
Firing it for 10 seconds is the cost equivalent of using a regular heater for just an hour. Therefore, it has the potential to be a long-term low-cost alternative to certain tasks missiles currently carry out. The cost of operating the laser is typically less than £10 per shot.”
DragonFire is led by the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl), on behalf of the UK MOD, working with its industry partners MBDA, Leonardo and QinetiQ.
This milestone demonstrated the ability to engage aerial targets at relevant ranges and is a major step in bringing this technology into service. Both the Army and Royal Navy are considering using this technology as part of their future Air Defence capabilities.
Defence Secretary, Grant Shapp said:
“This type of cutting-edge weaponry has the potential to revolutionise the battlespace by reducing the reliance on expensive ammunition, while also lowering the risk of collateral damage. Investments with industry partners in advanced technologies like DragonFire are crucial in a highly contested world, helping us maintain the battle-winning edge and keep the nation safe.”
The Ministry of Defence say that the latest milestone builds on a series of highly successful trials, including the first static high-power laser firing of a sovereign UK capability and demonstration of the DragonFire system’s ability to track moving air and sea targets with very high accuracy at range.
“Building on this research, the MOD recently announced its intention to fund a multi-million-pound programme to transition the technology from the research environment to the battlefield. The latest trial was sponsored by the MOD’s Defence Science and Technology (DST) organisation and Strategic Programmes and enabled by many other agencies across government, ensuring all regulatory and safety approval requirements were satisfied.”
Dstl’s Chief Executive, Dr Paul Hollinshead said:
“These trials have seen us take a huge step forward in realising the potential opportunities and understanding the threats posed by directed energy weapons. With our decades of knowledge, skills, and operational experience, Dstl’s expertise is critical to helping the armed forces prepare for the future.”
The MOD added:
“The DragonFire weapon system is the result of a £100 million joint investment by the Ministry of Defence and industry. Together, the companies involved are supporting highly-skilled UK jobs in new cutting-edge technologies that are delivering a significant step-change in the UK’s capability in LDEW systems. In 2017 the MOD’s Chief Scientific Advisor’s Research Programme awarded a £30 million contract to the DragonFire consortium to demonstrate the potential of LDEWs.”
Dr Nick Joad, DST said:
“This is a really innovative application of science and engineering and is the fruit of sustained investment and effort. DragonFire uses cutting-edge science and technology and delivers much greater performance than other systems of a similar class. DragonFire provides a step-change in our ability to deal with high-performance and low-cost threats.”
UK defence is continuing to invest in these game-changing technologies and is advancing the plans which will ultimately bring them into service.
Shimon Fhima, Director Strategic Programmes for the MOD said:
“The DragonFire trials at the Hebrides demonstrated that our world-leading technology can track and engage high-end effects at range. In a world of evolving threats we know that our focus must be on getting capability to the warfighter and we will look to accelerate this next phase of activity.”
We might need it sooner rather than later. Hopefully, someone will wake up and smell the coffee. Friday 19 January 2024 09:21, UK Ukraine war latest: Western civilians urged to prepare for ‘all-out war’ with Russia “A leading NATO official has said civilians as well as armed forces in the West need to be prepared for the outbreak of a war with Russia that would demand significant changes to their lives. Admiral Bauer said: “We have to realise it’s not a given that we are in peace. And that’s why we [NATO forces] are preparing for a conflict with Russia.”… Read more »
Absolutely NC. It seems the whole World is going to hell in a handcart.
So true and we keep selling or scrapping the Wheels
always have done.
my missus is out buying all the toilet rolls in the town, but i don’t think our bunker under the potting shed will be big enough.
Yes, I read this as well. I wonder what’s in the minds of the NATO top brass though. Are they after budget increases and/or trying to wake their political masters up? War with Russia? It would take a mind boggling effort for Russia to take on Europe even now, never mind when the likes of Poland have rearmed. Makes the Ukraine all the more important though.
Hopefully, wake up and smell the coffee. We need to look at what land-based systems we have in place to defend and deter against an attack from a foreign power and at range. Tomahawk V Typhon land-based mobile launcher. Additional ASTER 30 Block 1 and 2 when it becomes available. Additional land-based mobile launchers. Dragonfire Additional Typhoons MATRE ER JSM It’s been reported many times in the past and more recently that the UK relies too heavily on our alliance with NATO and the fact that the US will come to Europe’s aid should war break out. The world right… Read more »
The Defence Secretary pointed out in his recent Lancaster House speech that almost the entirety of our forces are committed to NATO. As you imply, I’m not sure that’s a good thing.
Agreed Jon.
It appears SPEAR 3 might also be delayed on Typhoon as well as the F-35. “Technical issues are preventing the UK from meeting its original timeline to test-fire the MBDA SPEAR 3 weapon set for entry into service on F-35B fighter jets. The UK MoD has revealed that the first firing test of MBDA’s Selective Precision Effects At Range Capability 3 (SPEAR 3) air-to-surface weapon from an RAF Eurofighter Typhoon will not take place as planned this year, but instead go ahead in 2023. ‘The first guided firing is now scheduled for 2023 due to technical considerations and programme complexity,’… Read more »
” go ahead in 2023″- when was that article published?
Well I guess many in Govt are still living in the past when it comes to defence.
Some positive news. January 17, 2024 @Breaking Defence “With a first flight planned for this year, manufacturers BAE Systems and Leonardo said the advanced radar will be “able to locate and deny use of an adversary’s radar with a powerful electronic jamming attack, whilst staying beyond the reach of threats.” BELFAST — BAE Systems and Leonardo UK have fitted an advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar to a Eurofighter Typhoon fourth generation fighter jet for the first time, in preparation for maiden flight of the system later this year. The ECRS Mk 2 radar program falls under a wider… Read more »
£2.34Bn for 107 jets of which only 40 will receive the new radar. Makes F35 Blk4 look like a bargin.
Is there any likelihood the rest of the Typhoons can get the radar upgrade or is set at 40? Seems a bit short righted even self defeating as its not even half the fleet. More will cost more but you’d think costs per plane might come down? If they stop with 40 here I think it’ll count out any additional new build Typhoon for the RAF.
Yes. T2 and T3 can take the new radar. But so far, only the T3 aircraft are funded to receive it. With the radar not due in service past 2030. I doubt T2 jets will receive it. As more attention and funds will have move to F35 and Tempest post 2030.
Thanks Robert. 2030 still seems such a long way away.
It does. Considering F35 will be on its 2nd AESA radar by then. The APG-85.
I wonder how much the new engines will cost per unit and when we will have them installed? 13 Dec 2023 “Ultimately, Block 4 addresses new threats to the aircraft since the DoD’s original requirements more than two decades ago. These Block 4 capabilities require more power and cooling than anticipated, which has prompted the DoD to modernise the overworked F135 engine. As a result of new demands in a different technological era, the DoD has added extra capabilities nearly every year since Block 4 began – leading to the aircraft’s capabilities growing from 66 to 80.” 2 Aug 2023… Read more »
Big numbers. For a large number of aircraft.
i’m waiting for charlie mark 3 to announce he will review the fleet! i’d pay to see the sheer panic at the MOD!!
the boer war times.
21 Jun 2022
Errmmmm 2023 was last year
The first test firing was rescheduled for 2023 due to technical considerations.
Did it take place, how many more will be required and when will it enter service with the RAF is my point regarding Typhoon.
Currently. Funding isn’t available to put SPEAR3 into service on the RAF Typhoon. The testing and firings are to de-risk integration on the F35B.
Obvious that Ukraine gets tacs.
We won’t be buying more Typhoons when we are spending £2.35 billion upgrading the one’s we have. And we won’t be buying Matre ER when we are buying SPEAR 3.
👍
No official decisions have been made re Typhoon or MARTE ER. Spear 3 will not be happening until the end of this decade.
We need an interim solution.
That top bit answers my question to you.
Is there any official confirmation of this?
Missile attack on Britain is possible and the threat of global nuclear war is always alarming but no one will be landing troops on this soil to invade it, whether China has 400 ships or 4000.
They wouldn’t have to. This is not 1940. They get to the Channel coast and we’re finished. Nothing moves by air or sea. The economy would be finished in a matter of weeks.
Ok to be clear, no one is invading Europe to the extent that France and Belgium and Holland are occupied either, who exactly are getting to the channel coast? you say ‘this is not like 1940’ but the scenario you have painted is flipping exactly like 1940. My point is that it isn’t, no one will invade us or France and take us over. The problem may be rogue missiles or even a full missile strike, maybe.
Wouldn’t even need to get that close I reckon Europe lives or dies united, someone said today it’s ridiculous how Europe has failed to unite to form serious collective defence and now that the US is becoming a head case in its own right we need to take every opportunity while Russia is tied up in Ukraine to do so in case US support wavers. One irony in that is how the hell would the US commitment to Israel which is causing so much animosity towards Western structures, actually work if Europe became disconnected from the US under Russian hegemony… Read more »
after what the ukranians have done to the russian military machine they won’t get anywhere near the channel.
our mighty archers will protect us.
IF they were alone, yes.
I think the cold reality of how long it takes to rebuild the forces we’ve allowed to wither. Realistically, we’re not looking at having the platforms, personnel and munitions stockpiled before ~2035 if we start beefing those things up now. That’s about when Russia might also be ready for a dust up with the rest of Europe. And if we ignore the NATO generals, then Russia will still be ready and looking for a fight, and we won’t.
if we wanted to rebuild the nations forces in a hurry wer’re totally fu***d theres nowhere that can deliver anything good enough or quickly enough to make a diffeence.
Quite- our best bet is to funnel more funds into stuff we’ve already got contracts for, to boost our inventory. Nothing we have is bad- we just need more of it!
We do seem to be at some kind of turning point. Germany is weaker. Finland and Sweden have joined NATO; you might say historical 17c Scandinavia is back. Norway is strong. Watching the coronation on TV I got the sense that Denmark’s star is rising. Poland is gaining economic and military strength.. Erdogen has visions of a new Ottoman empire. The tensions in the UK are pulling England and Scotland back to a pre-union relationship. Russia has failed to conquer Ukraine. Lavrov said this week that Ukrainians have to get used to being part of Russia ( 18c empire). I… Read more »
It’s most definitely not looking good at present including what’s taking place in the middle east. Did I forget to mention Russia and China’s joint military Naval exercises? You don’t look to build 400+ ships by 2030 just for a regional conflict. “North Korea’s foreign minister has returned home after making a rare official visit to Russia, according to state media. Choe Son Hui arrived back with a government delegation on Friday, the news agency KCNA added. Earlier this week, she was photographed meeting Vladimir Putin. Ms Choe’s visit to Moscow is the latest in a series of high-level exchanges. She met… Read more »
i get the idea that china is not overly impressed by the russians or that they would be of a real use as allies. china by itself is, for me the main menace to peace. they don’t do reckless rhetoric, they keep their cards to their chest if they were to go for tiawan, it would be at very short notice.
Russian mothers can’t bring down Putin like they did in the 80’s. People in the Gorbachev government actually cared. No one in Putins regime gives a f**k what the public thinks or who has to die.
i’m surprised that the kremlin has not turned on putin. i expected that the usual ‘purge’ or revenge would have happened. and putin would be a lump of earth in the forest somewhere.when those wagner rebels turned around and didn’t. carry on to moscow, the opportunity to get rid of the fool was missed.
not a good thing when everyone knows even the russians are suffering mission overstreach. everything they have could be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
By significant changes in civilian life I assume the admiral is expecting people to be combining through the nuclear waste land. What a stupid statement.
A conventional war between NATO and Russia would be over very quickly a nuclear war would be catastrophic.
What are civilians adjusting to?
Or, considering joining our armed forces and increasing our industrial base in the defense sector springs to mind.
Not a good time to be closing down your steel making capacity methinks.
I tend to agree with your comment Spyinthesky and a very good time to invest in homeland defence both long and short. Sweden orders mobile air-defence systems19 January 2024 The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) ordered mobile short-range air defence (MSHORAD) systems from Saab during the fourth quarter of 2023, the agency and company announced on 17 January. Saab valued the contract at SEK300 million (over USD28 million) and said the contract period ranged from 2024 to 2026, while the FMV expected deliveries of two different types of MSHORAD systems, both integrated into the Bv410, the Swedish designation for the… Read more »
Absolutely correct @Spyinthesky. The government needs to make a quick decision on British steel plants in Port Talbot and Scunthorpe. Dont give Tata any danegeld as they did a few years ago. Nationalise it when they choose to close it down but before the furnaces are shut down for good. I don’t care what views people have with respect to the politics. In 1917 the Germans got the UK 1within 6 weeks of starvation. In reverse, Germany’s civilians began to suffer malnutrition in the winter of 1916 from the Royal Navy blockade in the North Sea and the French and… Read more »
Tata using the net zero god to justify screwing Port Talbot. HMG letting them get away with it. We should call Tata’s bluff and tell them no redundancies- think again or we will nationalise. Tail wagging the dog here….
He’s saying we may have no choice in whether war starts or not what is the alternative scenario surrender before it starts? Don’t see much else when you analyse Russian intent it has nothing to do with defence.
my wfes out 🎇buying oilt rolls for the bunker down the garden.under the potting shed.
We can’t have war just yet—HMG needs another decade of cuts to completely finish off our armed forces!
Defeat by stealth! Would you happen to know if Guy Fawkes has any descendants?😆
January 18, 2024 @ Breaking Defence
“A new report from Britain’s RUSI and America’s SCSP argues only tough, politically savvy leadership can force the armed services to scrap enough existing systems to free up funds for an AI-driven revolution in warfare.” 😂
if it works roll it out starting with one of the ships in the red sea where theres a good chance it can be used in a real environment.
Awesome news! When will it be fitted to a warship? Obviously we need this yesterday….
Morning all.
Would be interesting to see if this could be mounted on the top and bottom of a large aircraft. In my mind something like a modern-day B17 where the top and bottom gun turrets were positioned. Would have greater line of sight than a ship, that’s for sure. But it depends on how heavy and sizable the power supply and other supporting elements would be.
This article was a great news piece, well done to all involved. May this success continue and develop into a deployable platform relatively soon!
Cheers
M@
While mounting the thing probably wouldn’t be a big issue, having sufficient power generation facilities on board to make it worth the hassle might be
Just ban the use of hairdryers Whoops 🤭 but seriously its the Wattsge used the Navy has used Lasers before going all the way back too OP Corporate which drew a lot of AMPS things of progressed now so fitting Dragonfly shouldn’t be a problem Ben
Not a problem on ships sure! Can’t see us squeezing on onto a B-17 as Matt suggested though.
Ask Boeing they have doors that open in flight
And the last one I remember on an airliner was a 747 many years back. Wasn’t practical back then wonder if it is now, doubtful I reckon certainly in anything other than defence over your own country but who knows within a decade.
Was the 747 USAF or NASA but I do think there was a Documentary on it if my memory serves me right
Its being pursued for Tempest, capacitor charged you would be able to get a shot off between every 10-60 seconds depending on output.
There is an RR project for high electrical output from its new generation of engine cores such that the generating capacity is inside the engine and cooled by the airflows inherent in an engine.
which would – I assume – impact on the engine cooling capability?
Maybe maybe not if they are using the reaction engines tech.
Hardly prolific then – there a hell a lot of firepower that can be delivered in that time.
I get that you dont have to re-arm but still …and its only line of sight so…
Line of sight for a laser will be somewhat different to line of sight for a missile mind ie speed of light v a few thousand miles per hour. Range is going to determine its ultimate effectiveness.
It’s only about 50 kW for a few seconds (i.e. about 200 kW accounting for efficiency losses). Apparently they’re looking at a flywheel for storing the required energy. A bigger engineering challenge is dissipating the excess heat, but at least the sea provides a decent heat-sink.
Yes that’s the tech that Williams has created for RR.
Agree, sea-based DEW will probably be the first practical deployment of maturing tech. Wonder whether anyone has proposed an AUKUS R&D Pillar 2 initiative for space based systems? ChiComs will prove to be the pacing function.
Random piece of flywheel trivia…. My first job back in 1981 was near Oxford and the company I worked for did quite a lot of work for the Joint European Torus project that at the time (and for many years afterwards) was at the cutting edge of fusion power research. I got a tour of the facility and, apart from how sophisticated the robotics were to remotely maintain equipment in the reactor hall, the other thing that stuck with me was seeing the two huge flywheels that they spun up to store enough energy to initiate a test. The instantaneous… Read more »
Back of fag packet assuming by “regular heater” they mean a 2kW heater, its looking like it needs 720kW of power to fire it. No problem for the likes of T45 with it’s rated 52MW of power (post PIP), but maybe also feasible for the likes of a voyager aircraft variant. I’m not sure if the main engines would be able to provide the power or if a beefy APU would be needed instead.
Ben ,
I do believe that the U.K. miltary has set in motion a policy that all new British Mil equipment (Ships, planes and armour) have the means and ability to power lasers designed to be used on their respective platforms.
Even the helmets…that’d be cool , just like the Cybermen in Dr Who
Let’s hope it’s more effective they never win against the Daleks, or indeed even humans in the end despite all their upgrades.
Not quite, bottom line is you need a GT that can generate sufficient power and highest power density engine around is the RR MT30. So QE and T26 in RN and Zumwalt, LCS1 in USN. That engine is a major export earner Italy, Japan, US, Canada, Australia, S Korea and rumour has it India.
Obviously all Tech info will be kept secret but it would be interesting to know the effective range… sounds very promising though.
Using existing system performance 2-5 Km max against a slow drone and dependent on the weather, humidity, and obscuration factors.
Physics as I have said many times is a bitch. Without altering the fundamental laws of nature you are limited on range and performance with current tech
We’ve had too many bad news articles recently, so good to read this, especially as reporting on Dragonfire has gone through a quiet period.
Checked the date, not April 1st. Therefore this is good news but now we need to be accelerating the testing program because unlike Nigel I don’t think we might need this sooner than later, I believe we need it right the hell now and it is only going to become clearer the longer the attacks continue in the Red Sea
So are we looking at this as a Phalanx replacement, or, if we can hit a £1 coin at 1km range, can this extrapolate to an effective kill at 25km (fringe of LOS say) …. and therefore a Ceptor replacement also? I dare say the further the target is from the laser source the longer the beam dwell time would need to be on target to overcome atmospheric losses etc? A target that ‘jinks’ would represent a greater challenge for the laser and its tracking system I dare say?
Hope we don’t put all our eggs (faith) in one golden basket. CAMM, 30/40mm, 5″, Dragonfly and phalanx would all have a roll…especially in fog, rain, blizzards !!😉
I just wondered that on a previous thread Weather conditions was also raised just hope that “Rain stopped play” isn’t an issue you would have thought that the boffins behind Dragonfly have factored those into tests carried out , or just place them on ships stationed in the Persian Gulf as Weather conditions around the Falklands vary greatly
I would hope (initially at least) this weapon would be fitted as an addition to phalanx rather than a replacement. Primarily as a cheap anti-drone weapon and backup anti missile system.
The “cheap” FPV drones seen as such a problem are only likely to operate in clear conditions and are unlikely to be radar guided.
Anything that was, or could carry a radar/IR guided missile, would be a valid CAAM target anyway?
Yes I think that’s the realistic take. As simple drones become so important that capability alone will be very precious. Build up from there.
Could a few smoke granades lobbed in the LOS render it ineffective?
There’s probably someone on this Thread that can give you a full scientific detail of smoke parts per million interference with laser beam particles in a salty ozone environment and its squareroot 😀😀😀
Alas Frank I don’t know how long a smoke grenade in an open Seastate environment would hang around for
If the ship is on the move then it ought to be able to simply move away from the affected area, so not too much of an issue there. On the other hand, if in port you already have a problem if someone is close enough to lob smoke grenades around…
👍
Good point Pete and Tommo, weather/atmospherics would need to be factored into any future Escort ships weapons inventory.
Still a good option…conditions good, target suitable….you use it as low cost multi shot system. …..provided unit cost per system is reasonable.
Yes, agree, goes along way to eliminating the many concerns over unit cost of missiles expended, as debated on here about the current Red Sea confrontation and Ukraine conflict. I reckon the laser unit costs will be high, given the necessary payback on development but potentially worth it spread over a typical lifetime.
Good point? The same comment has been made every single time anything to do with Lasers or DEW is mentioned, somehow I doubt that those involved in the project have completely and absolutely never even though of this as an issue, whereas almost 100 percent of posters on this forum spot it straight way.
I agree, I mean who would stick a rocket launch site on the northern edge of the Shetlands expecting any launch company to buy into it eh… oh right.
On that note I was surprised to read how southern Texas has an awful lot of days when a launch will be affected by the weather conditions… if rather different ones for the most part to Shetland.
Better than putting a “spaceport” in Cornwall who’s only launcher fluffs it’s first attempt and goes bankrupt! Lol
Saxaford has a better chance as , geographically it is well positioned for launching satellites into polar orbits, and to be fair all such locations will have poor weather.
If you are fighting in narrow seas things like islands get in the way. You need missiles for indirect fire and thick weather. For instance I’ve yet to see one of our ships fire weapons in anything but flat calm moving at 15 kn. Lots to think about; but scary stuff.
I suspect that second part of your comment likely answers the first part with its question. Dwell time would for the foreseeable future not really making it a good Phalanx replacement as a last gasp defence. I think short term at least it will be an extra layer most useful and cheap against drones with some increasing capability at longer range against missiles and other threats giving it time to damage them or blind their sensors. Years of testing ahead no doubt. I believe the US has prototype ship mounted lasers under test but haven’t heard they have rushed them… Read more »
I remember well industry and the navy claiming Sea Wolf could hit a 4.5″ incoming shell at range…of course “industry” will make claims, they make lots. Suck up millions, then move onto the next wonder weapon. Its all pie in the sky. Stick this on a Type 45, then see if it works on a murky, stormy day in a rough sea in the Atlantic against a tennis ball….
We regularly hit 4.5 shells with Wolf. It was part of the acceptance trial after maintenance or system upgrades. You could actually see the shells on the system tracking runs on the TV monitor for around 2 seconds before they hit the sea.
Yep all of the above are issues.
To kill something at 25Km you would need a multi Giga Watt Laser and it would be the size of a LPD!
With current tech
A target that is doing 250kph needs a dwell time of say 5 seconds. You engage at max range of the system (50-100 Kw) say 5km (optimistic).
A single target will travel 350m so 15 targets would probably overwhelm the system factoring in dwell time, tracking and acquisition time.
Physics! Gotta love it!
Perspectives of this are really interesting. No ammunition stocks, no complex reloading, simplified logistics. If range and engagement time per target is comparable to e.g. Phalanx, it would be a great supplement to (or replacement of) existing CIWS systems. And they could basically be put on anything – carriers, Rivers, RFAs…
Considering you don’t have to worry about debris from this, it would seem a no brainer to cram the QEs to the gunnel with them
I’m sceptical regarding these point defence lasers, I think they have a long way to go before they reach the utility of reliable alternative gun systems.
What can a laser do, that a T31 40mm mount can’t do??
How does poor weather effect them?
If they are defeated by sea fog or heavy rain, then they really are borderline pointless and extremely expensive toys.
Just to add, I would fit the 40mm mounts onto the QE Class, they would give better protection than phalanx and considerably better protection than the current ‘fu#k all’ point defence fit!!
Yes and before they send the carriers through the Suez or to any CSG deployment. No decoy or anti torpedo launchers onboard by the look of it either.
I’d say they’d be very useful for VSHORAD against small UAV’s and FPV drones when in port or close to shore. Especially considering that you hardly want shrapnel flying all over the place around fancy radars, optics and a deck full of F-35’s. It’s about layering the defence with SeaCeptor, guns, lasers and EW. Sure an FPV drones isn’t going to sink a ship but you wouldn’t want it igniting a missile on a deck and it hitting a radar is effectively a mission kill for a ship like T45. Plenty of enemies would see wiping out an F-35 or… Read more »
Very good points….
I wonder if you could mount the system high up on a T45 mast, seems to me, the higher the better with a line of sight laser system to counter high swells etc.
The higher you mount something the greater the degree of sway, though the targeting optics should be able to compensate.
Good point, but I would have thought Dragon fire has a fully stabilised laser with wide arcs of movement???
Interesting points, I think however it will mostly only be used in CIWS against drones for the foreseeable and as a very last resort otherwise, I’m thinking medium range will be its forte esp against sensors, it doesn’t in most circumstances need to actually physically destroy the missile particularly when you are a moving target. .
The answer to what a laser can do that a missile can’t is 186,000 MPS rather than 2,727 MPH and it doesn’t slow down from the point it leaves the muzzle. The pulse necessary would probably be less than a second. It would literally look like hitting the target at the same time the weapon was fired. No lag, no flight time, no time to take avoiding action which definitely put the onus on targeting and acquisition. It isn’t Star Wars but a layered system using missiles with Lasers for the small or last ditch defence to replace CIWS or… Read more »
Put these on airships at 150,000ft and you’ve got a pretty useful intercontinental missile defence.
Splendid idea….. 😂
You’re a kind soul. Bless you. Have a good day.
Thanks bud ! … seriously though, It has to be able to generate power (heavy equipment) and it needs a pretty sophisticated type of Radar to be able to track and engage Ballistic Targets especially in “Look Down” mode… Not sure if these Airships would be the most Ideal platforms given their susceptibility to adverse weather at Launch or indeed at high altitude specially when you factor in things like “The Gulf Stream”. Also at 150.000 feet, they would probably have to be Autonomous, Crewless and built using totally different materials to those of which are currently available (Airlander)….. apart… Read more »
And a bloody long mains lead 🔌
😂😂😂😂😂…. lol, as an avid Motorhome’r, i do worry about the length of my Electrical Hookup Cable at times !!!!
👍
No, this is a very short range system, the Americans gave up on airborne anti ballistic missile systems, as the power output and targeting systems are ridiculously complex and expensive.
They filled an entire 747 with the system and it was
‘iffy’ effective on a good day.
Dragonfire is like a laser pointer in comparison.
Things have come a long way since that set up mind.
Perhaps you only need a mirror on an Airship to redirect stuff…hmm.
I believe theres a mirror on the moon – perhaps they could use that ..well they could at night at least….
Presumably the tracking and targeting tech is ‘off the shelf’, so once the laser tech is mature then the roll-out could be quite quick? Or am I being overly optimistic?!
They were working very hard on tracking and targeting. A laser doesn’t work like a missile. You have to continually hold the position to a particular spot on a moving obect so that it heats that point up and breaks through. They were talking about Dragonfire producing a spot the size of a penny, maybe 2 cm diameter. Maintaining that accuracy level at kilometers distance over time is so not off-the-shelf.
A bit like burning ants with a magnifying glass then …appararently
True but I believe Leonardo have been working on their targeting technology for some years not sure in what context so it did sort of pre exist.
£100 million on developing a lazer we probably won’t use. That’s about the cost of a T23 LIFEX.
Now we know why we can’t have nice things.
All fur coat, lazer beams and no knickers
“Laser” !
It will be used, guarantee it it’s an emerging technology at the beginning of its development, it’s just whether this system will be the solution or whether it’s merely a step on the way. Either way you have to start somewhere and similar dismissive comments were made about every advance from the tank, flying machines, the jet engine (Griffith- it will never generate enough thrust to do anything beyond power a propellor- and he pretty much detailed the turbine aero engine post WW1) and many more dismissed military projects.
From what understand from ex colleagues who know about the aero side of things the RR Hybrid isn’t designed for this use. It’s for low emissions and Hybrid aircraft power and is just in the development stage, so a few years off. It can also be used as a stand alone GT generator or to power lift fans etc 🤔 However the RR MT30 is the beastie for the job, you just need to use the generated Electricity to power up either a Bank of Capacitors or Flywheels. The QE installation included the ability to provide power for GA EMAL… Read more »
Fur Coats, no Knickers or Fur Coats and dripping. Derbyshire or Notts ?
Slightly off topic. There’s some good video of Bradley’s chewing up Russian armour in the last day or so. Seems an impressive piece of kit.
Saw that – a T-90M as well. Appeared to be fully blinded by the autocannon leading to its eventual destruction
Only last year Putin described the T90m as the best MBT in the world. But from that video clip it looks like the crew were like rabbits caught in the headlights and not know which way to turn. I’m guessing it must have been a bit of a nightmare inside that tin can.
I don’t think even Putin would’ve believed that particular brag! Even laggards like Ariete and LeClerc are better than T-90
Exactly everyone laughed at that prospect of a 20mm chain gun previously taking out a tank but has happened at least twice it seems first taking out the tank optics and then firing at the turret ring penetrating it there making the turret spin uncontrollably and finally catch fire and the tank trying to escape hitting a tree and the crew decamping. I hope we use Ukranians to teach us a few tricks when this is all over. Interestingly they use the same technique with their drones, even light ones targeting the turret ring from behind of even T-90s, the… Read more »
Finally some news on the U.K LASER PROJECT it seems to have been going on forever to get to a possible deployable stage. It’s areas like this and cyber warfare that the U..K must be at the forefront of.
Originally they said there would be active tests of the system at Shoebury Ness starting last Jan after successful initial tests of each part. It was quiet for a bit but there was an announcement some months later that tests were taking place, had been successful and they were moving onto the next stage at a more remote location where it could be tested at full power and greater range. The news today is thus the conclusion of those tests no doubt. So apart from some delay post last Jan be it the tests or simply announcements regarding it difficult… Read more »
Look forward to seeing it mounted on a Navy PODS aboard XV Patrick Blackett.
I have seen CGI of Dragonfire on a container, so would assume it is something the Navy is thinking about. Would be useful for protecting RFAs when making deliveries to ports with a risk of attack, particularly around the Middle East, which seems generally to be the ideal region for Dragonfire.
Interesting that the Swedes had to take out a drone flying near the Queen Elizabeth when over there so shows the need for a defence against such things.
I think they used EW rather than hard kill. It was in a Swedish port at the time so firing Phalanx would have been an issue.
Your spot on Mr Collins, but does anyone think that Sunak,Starmer, Hunt and Shapps are anywhere near to grasping what you and others are saying. Or do you think they will keep their heads down and keep reiterating the same old sound bites written by the civil service and their liberal advisors in the hope the problem blows over ?
Need to throw a lot at getting this into a deployable state. It would be ideal for use on a ship for anti drone work. Finding a ship left to fit it to might be a challenge though…
Both the Army and Royal Navy are considering using this technology as part of their future Air Defence capabilities.
Form a Committee. Replace with new Committee after five years. Replace head of Committee after two years and refine objectives. After three years carry out a deep review of progress. Scrap device at end of 18 months ‘exhaustive’ review. Buy an American system ‘in limited numbers’.
We need it now. Right now.
A little O/T but kind of related in terms of drone proliferation: The MOD has placed an order for new small surveillance drones to equip the British army. They’ll be getting “159 rotary-wing Indago 4 devices and 105 fixed-wing Stalker VXE30 drones, which are both capable of locating and identifying targets far from the operator, are due to be operational by the end of 2024.” All very commendable, lessons learned from Ukraine, etc. etc. Except that they’re paying £129 Million for ~260 tactical reconnaissance drones, which in Ukraine would last one of their brigades less than a week. I know… Read more »
at least our laser weapon has a decent name….. dragonfire is just plain better than some american abbreviation/number! ;P
On a not unrelated note just been reading a US take on the EMALS on the new Chinese Carrier which it was claimed due to it using steam turbines there was a big question over how it could produce the power required, it conflicts with their own research though the Chinese have claimed a breakthrough that enables it. It’s interesting that no test of the system has been shown as yet but the US source claimed doubts that it could recharge in under 10 minutes or so based on their calculations and experience with their own system. Of course could… Read more »
I actually don’t see what who ever in the US said this is getting at ! It is completely irrelevant as the US Nuclear carriers are also actually steam powered using steam turbines. The only difference is the heat source, fossil fuel in boilers or nuclear in a rector and both are capable of producing very high SHP. The big difference is that you need to have turbo generators in your plant set up to produce the required electric power for EMAL, hotel functions, sensors, comms etc etc. You also need to have the a very clever automated switch gear… Read more »
Interesting. I an wondering whether we will see mirrors instead of armor in the future
Great news but by the time it is fully ready there will be no Warships to fit it to or sailors to man them!!!!!!
Not to mention the saving in logistics/supply chain and ammunition stowage requirements, ammunition manufacturing costs. Effectively unlimited ammunition on board for this weapon.
I think this is about as useful as a box of matches. Think about it. The target needs to be within 1km for 10 seconds. So maybe a small drone with maybe a small bomb. Literally anything moving faster than that will cover that 1km in less than 10 seconds and this thing is useless. A 12.7mm RWS with a small radar for guidance is already established tech and will cover a much wider range of targets than this. It won’t have all these massive development costs or anything like the footprint, topside weight or power consumption. It already exists.… Read more »
And to add to that, we would need 500 targets per unit per ship. So a fleet of 50 ships would need 25,000 targets just to break even on weight. And cost wise, I’m sure 100 rounds of 12.7 are more than £10, but how many 100 round shots could we have for the £100m we have pissed away on this.
IF IS EFFECTIVE, THEN THE SYSTEM SHOULD BE DEPLOYED.
wonder what it was successful at doing? a successful trial says nothing. what was trial aimed at doing?
It really is a shame that the UK doesn’t do this 100pc in house- less chance that the enemy will get their hands on it and develop a countermeasure and non classified parts of this research could be disseminated to the commercial sector and used to bring jobs to the UK, increasing GDP per capita and military budget.