The Ministry of Defence says it is still too early to confirm delivery timelines or fleet size for the RCH 155 wheeled artillery system, despite ongoing trials of two guns.
The Ministry of Defence has declined to provide planned in-service dates or total numbers for the Army’s future RCH 155 wheeled artillery system, stating that the programme remains in its assessment phase and has yet to reach contract. Responding to questions from MPs, defence minister Luke Pollard said the Mobile Fires Platform programme, which will deliver the Remote-Controlled Howitzer 155mm mounted on the Boxer vehicle, has not yet progressed far enough to allow confirmation of initial or full operating capability dates.
“The Mobile Fires Platform Project… remains in its assessment phase and is subject to contract,” Pollard said, adding that it is “too early to confirm platform numbers, delivery timelines and expected in-service dates.”
The response also rules out any current disclosure of how many RCH 155 systems the Army ultimately intends to procure, with the MOD stressing that analysis of future equipment fielding is still underway. While declining to provide firm commitments, Pollard confirmed that two RCH 155 systems have already been purchased and are being used to support further testing and evaluation.
“We are making good progress however with the purchase of two of these systems which are undergoing further testing,” he told Parliament. The RCH 155, developed by KNDS, is intended to provide the British Army with a highly mobile 155mm artillery capability following the donation of AS90 howitzers to Ukraine.
Artillery, helicopters, increasing defence expenditure… the UK government is dragging it’s feet badly. These are things that needed to be sorted yesterday! Defence is (or should be) the first priority of any government. Nothing else is important when your very sovereignty isn’t secure.
Considering Starmer’s recent form, defence is also likely to witness a U-Turn with a reduction in promised spending. Confidence in his government is dwindling on a daily basis.
Sadly I’m inclined to agree though that might upset DT which he doesn’t seem to like doing.
I think that has already started. Word is the Treasury is looking for current cost cuts from the MOD due to overspend.
Quite ridiculous really – further Brownian and Osbornian hollowing out which will cost £Bn’s to fix down the road.
Properly loopy at this stage of things not being g allowed to pull monies forwards.
That’s the point isn’t it. They could have said pull it out of the uplift. But if there is to be no uplift…
I’d missed the fact there was any confidence left to dwindle?
I thought we just had one gun, Germany 2, Just ask Ukraine how they work there are first user. Normal MOD story, nothing about a lot of nothing just lots of words and what might, could happen. Same boring crap from the MOD.
I thought we had bought 3 guns of which one was going to Germany for evaluation.
And I thought we had jointly bought 3! With 1 in the UK!
my understanding is 3 were bought in total. with one in the UK and and two in Germany, there is a gunner school for the UK in Germany at RAGTA, but the other two RCH 155 were for Germany to test etc not the UK. When ever they get delivered as there is an order for Ukraine ahead of them.
There hasn’t been a RAGTE in Germany since the 90s, it converted to ARTAT with reduced numbers and disappeared altogether around 2012.
After .my time then. But thanks for the up date
And no one was shocked. Shame because is looks like a fine piece of kit.
Apart from the wheels, never understood the current obsession of putting wheels on an artillery piece’s these days. More mobility is all well and good, but mobility doesn’t mean much once off road and in the mud.
Seconded
That was going to be my post.
Surely in essence it can be considered as more nuanced swings and roundabouts, wheels get you to where you need it far quicker and without more generally the need for transporters, tracks clearly the better bet off road certainly in trickier conditions and environments. I am not qualified to make that judgement or how often a cross country wheeled vehicle is going to get bogged down statistically and how much more limiting it will be typically in a European conflict, Ukraine probably has provided experts with some great evidence mind. We were mentioning the Stalwart the other day and I do remember when young how impressive it was in the very wet and muddy conditions of army assault courses even if it did get stuck on occasion, so I will leave it to others with experience to make a more educated judgement overall but I will say specialist wheeled vehicles are pretty damn good in most conditions, just not extreme ones so again it’s a matter of how often you encounter those conditions and one would think to have something available in event of those extreme conditions being a factor, both would be ideal my questions here dictating the balance. Sadly I doubt we are going to get the latter are we, that may perhaps in the extremes of sorely limited budgets be, if painfully, acceptable if other requirements are acquired instead AND major front line powers like Poland and Germany have good supplies of tracked artillery to provide that capability. Hardly ideal I admit.
I bet they’re deployed on transporters.
I have no information about this so the question is probably going to sound very basic, but is it an 8×8 drive system? And just how much would it take to bog down an 8×8?
I had heard that the Stryker 8×8 was pretty effective even in mud and snow. Admittedly, the Stryker is half the weight of the RCH, though.
But increased speed, a crew of just 2 (?) and a quicker shoot and scoot time seem like positives. It sounds like it is 30 kph faster than a tracked Boxer with considerably more road range as well.
It is no PzH 2000/Paladin but it has some serious up sides.
Honestly I wouldn’t mind some PZH 2000 as an alternative to RCH, but of course I doubt we are even going get enough RCH for our depleted artillery force
Germany will have both types. Why not the UK? Ne interesting for s cost comparison between thrm and the K9 platform.
My understanding is: Boxer has drive to all 8 wheels
Generally, 8×8 should give great traction, but there are a few conditions wheeled AFV should avoid
– Deep, sticky clay where tracks still dominate.
– Very steep, loose slopes (tracks bite better).
Also, wheeled AFVs tend to have a higher centre of gravity compared to tracked IFVs.
That all makes sense.
I had not thought about the improved CoG aspect of tracked vehicles. That is a strong positive when you are talking about a very heavy weapon system like a 155mm howitzer.
Ahh, that old chestnut, “Wheeled Artillery”.
A much discussed subject in Caravan/Motorhome circles ! Is it better to tow and unhitch with all the set up time or Drive and parkup with the minimum of effort ready to move at short notice ?
I should think In todays “Shoot and Scoot” warfare, the latter is the better option.
Completely missed the point I was making unlike some others in this thread, but you live up to your name I guess
Now please don’t respond, you’ll simply be ignored like some of the other mouth breathers on this site
Christ, what crawlked up your arse to make you so nasty ?
Kin ell mate, it was humour 🤦♂️
Ahh, I get it now. 😉
Sorry but I had a good chuckle when you said “Shoot and Scoot”. I envisioned a Chimera or a Huyabusa towing a small cannon. Certainly would check the “Scoot” box.
Morning Centurian, It’s always pot luck with humour on here, just like knowing who is who or who is replying under which name. Such a shame some have no humour and even more of a shame that some have multiple names and anger Issues.
Back to my comment, this towed Artillery question has been debated (that old chestnut) since Artillery and Vehicles were Invented, To Tow a gun and place It In a fixed/tempory position is entirely normal, the terrain and ground condition are the same as a motorised Artillery piece will encounter, so the “Getting Stuck” part Is down to the Towing driver just like this Boxer drived vehicle, basically, you don’t go where you will get stuck. Boxer has been designed for extreme ground conditions and probably copes better than most tow vehicles with their payload.
The humour bit was my comparrison to the age old argument that continues between Caravan owners and Motorhome owners. The “Shoot and Scoot” bit directly mirrors both scenarios. For example, when you tow a caravan/gun, you can unhitch and drive off somewhere else but this process takes a fair clunk of time whereas a Motorhome just arrives and Is already set up but It’s a larger lump to go off anywhere exploring than say a SUV.
The fact that “Mr Nasty” failed so completely to see both the similarity and the humour, speaks volumes about him, as does his obvious multi account reaction. ( I had exactly the same from “Not a Poet” who has now dissapeared and another who I can’t be “Arsed” to recall).
The word “Crawlked” is a bastardised name that I used to describe the event that must have happened to Illicit such a nasty reply.
“Crawlked” to crawl up an Arsehole or to walk up a Big Arsehole.
Re your comment, lol, yes I would say that adding a “Cerbera” engine (red rose spec V8) to a Hayabusa’s 197 PS would most certainly provide enough shove to move this Boxer and more than likely set a few standing quarter times along the way. !
I, for one, completely enjoy your humour and your insights but there seem to be a lot of people (or a few with multiple names) quick to fly off the handle here nowadays. Why can’t we all just get along…seriously?
It took me another read to catch on to exactly what you meant about the caravan/motorhome similarities. I can be a little slow at times 🙂
Cerebra not Chimaera both cool cars!
Keep up the good work my friend!
Cerbera…I’ll get it right one day, LOL
There hasn’t been a RAGTE in Germany since the 90s, it converted to ARTAT with reduced numbers and disappeared altogether around 2012.
Project Wavell has been running how many years? The SDR, a tome full of waffle and long words devoid of any real detail, was a year ago, maybe longer, I forget, and the DIP keeps delaying.
And they say they’re still analysing how many guns they might buy?
Things like this, are why so many don’t take Britain seriously any more.
FFS, look at the orbat, look at the personnel available, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work it out. The original requirement was for 116 guns when there were 4 Regiments to equip!!
Now there are less.
Even if they have a batch 2 down the line with another reorg and more Regiments created by some miracle they’ll still know a figure.
What happened to the ” up to” statements used so often if they want to keep it fluid?
I agree, if they don’t know what number they need by now when the hell would they? Fact is they have a very good idea, but as we know it’s how many we can afford that counts so they won’t reveal the former, only eventually much delayed the latter, which will be meekly presented with a straight face AS the former, while no doubt the military merely bite their tongues if they want a career extension and make do hoping they never have to actually fulfil all the assignment promises the politicians make on their behalf.
How many guns per Bty how many Bty’s per Regt? my understanding is 6 guns per Bty, 3 Btys per Regt ie 18 guns, in that case we only need 54 thats if Field Regts only have 3 btys and do not go to 8 guns per Bty in war, in which case the 3 remaining Regts will need 72
I think LG Batteries it’s 6, with 2 more in war from the Reserve.
I thought AS90 Regs were 8.
Yes, 3 Fire Batteries a Regiment.
Regiments to be outfitted are 1 RHA and 19 RA hopefully 4 RA too.
3 Regiments, 24 guns each, plus reserves, training, and RATDU.
Unless with only 2 crew as some say they have more per Battery, but I have my doubts as to the wisdom of that.
Reserves, umm like C3?, i agree they need 24 plus training trials guns but we both know the MOD seems to buy never enough and hopes none are lost through action or accident. I feel it will be no more than 96 to 116, some here saying we will get 200 not going to happen would need to stand up at least 2/3 more Regiments.
The DIP will be a fudge sadly.
For me, 70 to 80.
Anything else is a bonus.
No more people Healey admitted, so unless they reshuffle Regiments and take others off certain capabilities, no more Gun Regiments.
The King’s Gurkha artillery are not to be a self contained deployable formation either.
Agree on DIP, Im expecting a lot of re announcements. I didn’t expect anything from a Labour government hostage to the left and I’ve not been disappointed in that regard.
Shame.
my bet 96, same the number of useable AS90’s, 5 man crew reduced to 3 man saves on numbers but yes i do not think any Regts will be re activated. DIP will be an excuse to not buy things reapped up in lies and defection not holding out much for it and there simply is not the money or more so the will power to do any thing.
The hard left have always disliked the Military and the PM is too weak to push any thing through, Back to Regts i think the Light gun numbers will be reduced that may be where the other unit comes from thats a guess.
Morning mate, I took a quick look at this on Wiki (It’s as good as any place for a quick look) It says 72 by 2030 but up to 200-230 potentially in total.
Real numbers are obviously In the hands of our glorious leaders !
Not necessarily, most Arty Regiments contain a Tac Bty which consists of FOs and TacPs and 2 Eqpt Btys of 6 or 8 Gns. A tracked platform doesn’t mean much when your Ammo resupply is on wheels. I only saw M578s in 1991 prior to that it was Stalwarts, post 91 DROPS followed by Foden DROPS
Martin, you’ve missed out guns to go to the RA and REME Trg Org, the Repair Pool and the Attrition Reserve.
No, seems we do not do that any more ie 148 C3 tanks? 14Archers? we seem not to do attrition Reserves etc. Saving money matters more then doing it right but yes i do think about 116 is the min to get by on, thats not enough but no one seems to care its get by make do and mend, sadly. All great until a war then it will be too late.
Let’s be honest is not rocket science to pick and procure a 155mm self propelled gun system.. they all really much of a muchness. Pick one that’s not madly expensive and can be build in numbers within a few years ( in the Uk would be nice) and buy the amount needed for every tubed artillery regiment.. then pop the 105mm as reserves if a light gun is ever needed ( only for the marines or paras really) and give the archers to 16 brigade so the air mobile element has a 155mm gun as well ( 155mm self propelled should be the standard.. unless only a 105 will do).
Pretty much as is.
There are only 3 tubed regular Regiments, excluding 7 RHA and 29RA who support Paras and Marines.
Reserves already have the 105LG. Apart from 101RA with MLRS and the GBAD side it’s all they have.
They’ve picked an expensive one I suspect.
An order of at least 8 but not more than 10. Probably fitted for but not with the gun.
No dates, no numbers, no action ! Amazing. Who would have thought it?
They can’t really order it until the DIP is sorted out and they know how much money the army is getting. At £10m a pop, it is quite a big-ticket item.
The number 116 was bandied about at an early stage, but I think it was stated as 96 in the Mobile Fires Programme. 96 seems a lot, it would give 5 regts of 18 guns with 6 for training. We only need two regts, one each for 12 and 20 Bde Gps. It looks on the heavy side for 4 and 7 light Bdes but who knows.
As we speak, DIP is being slashed to make it fit the reduced budget.
If 7 Bde gets Boxer or Patria, or remains on Foxhound/ Jackal, towed 105mm not enough.
I don’t know about that. If 7 Light Mech Bde stays as a Foxhound formation, it is airportable at least in small numbers, so we could fly a few into a Sierra Leone-
Falklands -Basra type build-up. I can’t remember the dimension/weight calculation, from memory, we’d get 2 or 3 Foxhounds in an Atlas and 4 in a C-17, or a good haul of 105mm howitzers, or something like that. Doubt that this Boxer gun is airportable at all, looks too tall for Atlas and pretty heavy, someone else can do the sums.
Morning.
No idea on weights. The Army guys here often mention units are chopped and changed, Brigade assets being “task orged.” Stick the Boxers on a Point class and allocate some 105s from the reserves. They happily do that with 4 Bde.
I’d be amazed if the RAF ever moves a large number of vehicles by air again.
Bimbling
They’re waiting for the barrel factory to open and start manufacturing so they can say Made in Britain aren’t they 😐
I am going to hazard a guess and say the number being ordered in the foreseeable future is zero.
I wonder what its turning circle is given it will probably have to execute a U turn any day soon?
😁
Nobody is surprised are they? It will be exactly the same with the landrover replacement and Babcock waiting to get going with Patria!
So It’s 18 months and counting, so far what exactly has this government ordered in the way of defence equipment given the increased threats we face ?
6 Sky Sabre Launchers
53 Jackal E.
2 Dragonfire?
Some trucks.
Some Drones.
Nothing else counts as they were previous ongoing programs.
It’s mass rearmament for war, but not a we know it Jim…… I’ve officially put this government in the Same place as all the others since 2010.. geostrategicly illiterate and just hoping the bomb does not go off in their hands.
Oh well I stand corrected then 😁😁😁
at the end of WW2 the RA had more people than infantry. This was based upon hard fought lessons learned and an inclination not to have mass casualties (most casualties were in inf though)
We all keep hearing about this x10 lethality but the only way that will be achieved is through mass artillery / fire systems / drones.
We will probably need 2-5k artillery / fires units (decide on your own mix) to achieve the required overmatch. Whilst this is expensive given the size of our military we need low/optionally manned systems and this costs money.
we will probably end up with 30-40 of these – its simply not enough. UK Gov is full of BS at moment across everything – totally depressing
We all know that 10x lethality quote is meaningless word salad. The army is a toothless joke and there’s no sign of that changing anytime remotely soon. People have been hung for treason who did far less damage to country than successive governments (and arguably service chiefs) of the last quarter of a century.
That is overly negative New Me. We know that the army has been reduced to its smallest size for centuries and is bereft of a heap of modern equipment and weapons. It is still very professional and can fight, just not in the numbers we need. The task facing the UK is how do we build it back up and restore some mass and capability?
We have the key thing missing from the peace dividend years, a budget that is increasing from under 2.4% of GDP last year to 3.5% in ten years time. That is a 45% increase. As long as we don’t splash it all on vastly over-ambitious, unaffordable projects like Bastion Atlantic and 12(!) SSN Aukus, there will be enough cash to give the army and RAF a good boost in numbers and equipment. (I am all in favour of the RN increasing ship numbers a bit, but feel that it rather over-dominates UK defence strategy and spending – destroyers and frigates are going to be rather tertiary in an air/land war in Eastern Europe or elsewhere).
“The Ministry of Defence says it is still too early to confirm delivery timelines or fleet size for the RCH 155 wheeled artillery system”
I was more familiar with the old Staff Requirement (Land) document but I would have thought that the current User Requirements Document (URD) would spell out how many equipments were required to meet the overall SP Arty Requirement.
Its sadly another matter entirely how many are actually bought with available funds. Should have had 12 Type 45 destroyers to meet the Navy’s destroyer Requirement!
But we don’t have the spare dock space to long term store 12 ! It’s bad enough having 6. 😁
Whatever quantity is required to equip the Field Regts – be that 54 or 72 (as mentioned earlier) – the requirement is urgent now.
It would seem sensible to acquire at least half the requirement NOW, by increasing the number of only 14 Archer FH77BW L52, Swedish self-propelled howitzer system, owned by the UK as of July 2024.