A letter from the joint unions representing BAE Systems workers at Warton and Samlesbury has raised significant concerns over the future of the Typhoon aircraft production line in the UK.
Addressed to Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi, Member of Parliament for Slough, the letter outlines the growing unease regarding the suspension of Typhoon final assembly at the Warton site and the absence of future orders for the aircraft.
“As it stands as I write this letter, there are currently no Typhoons being final assembled at Warton and no orders for future aircraft, essentially production has stopped for British-built Typhoon aircraft.” the letter begins, making clear the halt in production and the uncertainty surrounding the future of the UK-built Typhoon fleet. The letter also highlights concerns regarding the UK’s potential replacement of these aircraft with American-made F-35A jets.
BAE Systems told me:
“Typhoon manufacturing is currently underpinned by the orders from Qatar, Germany and Spain which will ensure continuity of production of major units beyond the late 2020s. Further orders are needed to extend production beyond the latter part of this decade.”
A key point raised in the letter is the economic and industrial impact of such a shift. The unions argue that the UK’s industrial stake in the F-35 program, which does not depend on the number of platforms the UK acquires, would not mitigate the loss of domestic Typhoon production.
“The UK industrial position on the programme is due to the sovereign Intellectual Property and direct investment that the UK brought as a Tier-1 partner so if the UK decides to acquire no more F-35s this will not impact the economic return to the UK from the wider programme,” the letter states. The unions warn that halting the Typhoon production could “end design, manufacture and assembly of fast jets in this country,” and harm the UK’s sovereign capabilities.
The unions argue that “a nation is only as strong as its industry”, a sentiment echoed by Defence Minister John Healey, which they wholeheartedly agree with. They highlight the strategic importance of the Typhoon programme, which is a cornerstone of the UK’s combat air industry. The unions advocate for a domestic order of 24 Typhoon jets, arguing that the UK is the only partner nation in the Eurofighter consortium not yet committed to purchasing new aircraft.
“A domestic order will not only fulfil a requirement for the RAF in these unstable times but will also ensure that vital skills required to build the next-gen aircraft, GCAP, are retained at Warton Unit,” the letter continues.
The unions argue that without a domestic order, the UK could risk losing the necessary expertise to build and maintain advanced aircraft, including the future Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP).
In addition to the domestic order, the letter outlines the broader economic significance of the Typhoon programme, noting that it generates £2bn annually for the UK economy and supports thousands of jobs across the supply chain. “The Eurofighter Typhoon programme delivers in the region of £2bn per annum to the UK economy, directly employs 6500 people with an additional 14,000 in the supply chain and delivers around £1.6bn – £2bn per annum of export revenue.”
The unions argue that securing a domestic order will not only benefit the UK’s workforce but also bolster confidence for other nations considering Typhoon purchases.
The unions also stress the importance of the Typhoon programme for national security, suggesting that the loss of this production capability would damage the UK’s standing in international defence partnerships. “We are the only partner nation in the Eurofighter consortium that hasn’t committed to buying new aircraft,” the letter states. “A domestic order will give other nations considering buying Typhoon off the UK (Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt and Poland amongst others) the confidence to invest in the platform providing export revenue to the country and ensuring the longevity of our sites.”
The letter concludes with a call to action for the government to secure the future of the Typhoon programme in the UK. The unions request that the government take swift action to order new aircraft, which they argue will secure jobs, enhance military capabilities, and contribute to the country’s long-term defence strategy.
“If you would like any more information or support on this please don’t hesitate to contact us; we would also like to invite you to visit our sites in Lancashire to see our facility.”
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When did this concern about an F35A procurement rear its head (beyond the strange hypotheticals on online forums?)My understanding was that the MOD were looking at F35B first as a preference to Typhoon for growing combat air “mass”.
It’s a made up concern, the only way we are buying F35A is if the US withdraws from NATO and we have to take on the dual key B61 tactical nuclear role.
The US won’t withdraw from NATO if all countries pull their weight and stop expecting the “dumb yanks” to pay the lion’s share of the collective defence budget. Eight Nato members are not estimated to reach the target in 2024. They are Croatia (1.81%), Portugal (1.55%), Italy (1.49%) Canada (1.37%), Belgium (1.30%), Luxembourg (1.29%), Slovenia (1.29%) and Spain (1.28%). American taxpayers are more than tired of this treatment and Trump has heard them loud and clear.
It’s fair to say that Trump is right with this one, it’s like wanting to have a top teir gym membership but not wanting to pay for it. Every country in NATO should be required to put 2.5%GDP into the pot, otherwise their membership will be cancelled.
The problem with that is that they are part of the North American and European landmass. OK, cancel Belgian NATO membership. What do you do if Russia invades Belgium? Ignore it until they reach the French frontier? The small countries know that. And most of populated Canada is so close to the US border that a nuclear strike would be a major problem for the US. More proof that US taxpayers do not understand geography.
Why would the US care if Russia invades Belgium? The US isn’t a European country. Belgium is lucky to be in NATO. Geography favors the US in this scenario.
There are voices in American black community that say instead of Ukraine, USA should intervene in Haiti and pacify the whole country.
😆😂😆
There’s a reasonable chance of the US not turning up (both world wars) in a conventional war or at least not staying around (Afghanistan, Vietnam). I’m not saying that plenty countries in Europe do need to sort out their militaries, but over expectations of the US especially in the current situation where they may have simultaneous European, Taiwanese and Korean wars..
I assume the “logic” is that if we don’t produce Typhoons, we won’t be able to produce Tempest, so what would we replace the Typhoons with?
Excellent point, the US would love to see Tempest cancelled.
The Ghostbat drone?
I think the f35A potential is because anyone taking a reasonable risk lens to the development and deployment of the 6th generation aircraft would likely conclude that at some point in the 2030s the Uk will come to the conclusion it’s going to run out of airframe hours in its tranche 2 typhoon fleet well before the 6th generation aircraft gets to the point it’s in most of the front line squadrons..at which point a F35A buy sort of becomes inevitable, or an expended F35b buy..but II could not see the RAF replacing typhoon squadrons with f35b squadrons….better to expand the typhoon fleet now with some new airframes to remove the very real and likely risk of running out of hours.
Just because we couldn’t build Typhoons doesn’t mean we couldn’t buy them rather than F-35.
I agree that it would be far better to buy some now. I’d rather we bought 18-24 T5 Typhoons, spending the T2 F-35 budget, which has been sitting waiting and may continue to sit waiting for several years yet as a means of pressuring Lockheed Martin on Meteor and Spear integration.
I get the logic in that, I’m just surprised that a BAE Systems union is talking about that, because with my dealings in Air Command and MOD it’s literally never been on the cards. The only thing I’ve heard is that they prefer F35B over Typhoon for any additional buys to increase combat air strength.
Typhoon T2’s have well over half their airframe life left…so the point around airframe hours doesn’t stack up.
The reason why F-35A ‘comes up’ is from a tiny number of defence commentators and retired RAF types who keep bringing it up….anyone who suggests that they have been paid to say it…and the perenially daft Justin Bronk…
But that’s the problem we are not talking about their airframe hours now, the reality of the 6th generation programme is there is no change of seeing it into front line squadron service until 2045ish..at that point those tranch 2s will have been flying for 35 years…If they only had half their airframe hours left now after 10 years the RAF would be fucked by 2035…as it is even if they have only burnt 30% of their airframe hours any significant delay will see they RAF with only its tranche 3s with any meaningful flying hours left in the 2040s….that’s the risk that’s why a buy of 40 new airframes would mitigate that.
Hopefully the SDR will end up more about buying stuff than not buying stuff
Keeping the skill base and a trickle production rate would be vital, which is preferable to nothing. The UK should retain the ability to build new jets to support attrition in times of combat; it’s as simple as that. Failure to protect the provision of attrition would be tantamount to ignoring the lessons from history.
I am not sure BAE could keep a production line going on for just a few few attrition stock orders (3-5 aircraft per year?).
It wouldn’t be nothing exactly as Tranche 3s and possibly Tranche 2s are due to be upgraded.
Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi is chair of the defence sub committee. The point about showing confidence in your own products is well taken as is the point about industrial base. The thing is, would buying more Typhoons and fewer F-35Bs make defence ( and political) sense? You never know, maybe BAE is ready to start Tempest production 🙂
We should order 24 on spec as we did with the original Saudi Arabia order in anticipation of a government to government sale. There are plenty perspective sales customers and worst case scenario we just buy them to replace older T2 airframes instead of upgrading to the T5 standard.
Given the massive potential benefits especially for securing more orders for the CAPTOR E mk2 AESA radar it seems like a no brainer.
We should be able to finance this via the export bank with cooperation from BAE who I am sure would be more than willing.
They could also be sold to Ukraine as part of the finance credit we have given them.
It’s essential we keep Wharton production lines hot until Tempest is ready. With the potential scope from Saudi and Turkey it should be possible for us to keep 12 a year rolling. This is what the French have done to secure Rafael orders.
Hot production lines are also why we are suddenly able to sell frigates like T26 and T31 and even SSN A.
It’s essential for a medium power such as ourselves to have an industrial export strategy wedded to defence procurement.
With America possibly preparing to exit the world stage and an isolationist Congress we may find that F35 orders suddenly dry up and find that there is a massive market for western fighters.
Arguably we can’t afford to sell any frigates or submarines right now without shooting ourselves in the foot.
If I have the choice of having a finite budget to purchase support and operate for just 24 Aircraft then I’d opt for the F35B.
But if HMG is willing to fund a speculative purchase of 24 export Typhoons to maintain the industry I’d do that as well.
But there would be strings attached, HMG funds it but on the proviso that BAe splits the profit 50/50 and repays the capital when they are sold. If there are additional export orders BAe can spread the repayment over a longer period.
In essence it would be a loan !
Based on the lack of care for the H&W contract / defence industrial strategy, and the relatively low financial risk of a £100m loan going belly up, I can’t see HMG funding 24 new Typhoons on a speculative basis at 30 times the potential financial risk (assuming ~£100m per airframe plus some add-ons). Not sure what the Germans etc are paying for their new Typhoons.
Someone else mentioned the follow on Hawk order that never happened – might be a more cost-effective solution, although would have its own drawbacks.
Sounds like a good plan . Its the kind of thing they could do with frigates as there is clearly a world shortage st the moment of modern frigates
There is nothing wrong with more Typhoons, not everything needs to be stealth. F-15/16 both still in production and getting orders.
We need to increase capabilities and get a big joint order to go through. Germany is working on EW variants, we’re working on the new AESA radar, time for Scholz to stop blocking increased saudi orders etc…
For the vast majority of missions for almost all countries on earth 4th Gen aircraft are superior to 5th Gen aircraft.
If the US and soon us follow up on an all 5th Gen+ fleet it will leave a massive gap in the market.
F35A? That’s never been proposed anywhere that I’ve seen.
RAF ?
Apparently the Turkish order for 48 Typhoons is a done deal, which if true will secure the production line at Warton until work on GCAP starts.
That being said GCAP isn’t a direct Typhoon replacement, being more of a bomb truck and less of an interceptor/air superiority fighter so there will be a role for Typhoon when GCAP is in service.
Regardless of Turkish + possible Saudi orders the UK needs more airframes to at minimum a T5 order to replace the T1s is needed.
The discussion around Whitehall is not if we are going to be at 3% defence spending but when. Already at 2.3%, soon to be at 2.5% following Trump’s victory.
Err the GCAP will be an Air Superiority/Air Dominance Platform first and foremost,it will likely have the ability to be used in a Ground Attack Role,but that will be a secondary one.It will replace Typhoon in the A2A role.
Not it isn’t. GCAP is much, much larger than Typhoon.
Would you describe TSR-2 as being an air superiority fighter, because GCAP is going to be similar in size and scope?
Air warfare has changed.
Dogfighting in the age of stealth and air-to-air missiles is meaningless.
What use is it when you have METEOR?
Air battles are fought beyond visual range and so range and payload are what’s most important.
Air superiority fighters in the 6th Gen will be stealthy bomb trucks with long-range air-to-air missiles.
GCAP will be much larger thanTyphoon – everyone knows that,what the RAF and the JASDF want is long range, and a sizable Weapons Load ( preferably carried internally ) it will specialise in BVR,it doesn’t need to be an agile Dogfighter.The RAF wanted Typhoon to be larger than it ended up being for the same reasons but Germany forced a compromise.TSR2 was supposed to be a premier Strike Aircraft,ive not even mentioned it so your comparison is pointless.
I suspect there is a growing realisation that GCAP needs to be a stealthy F-15EX i.e. greater payload and range than a F-35.
Yes exactly focused on A2A not for Ground Attack.
Both.
I wouldn’t be so certain that the Turkish examples would find their final assembly being carried out at Warton.
I would be quite sure that the Germans will want Manching to carry out that particular role.
On Twitter Ben Wallace revealed the negotiations between the UK and Turkish governments on this. The deal would have been done under his watch but it was the German government that was blocking it.
Anyway the Eurofighter consortium has always worked on the basis that whatever country brings in an export deal gets to do the assembly for that order e.g UK doing the assembly on the existing Saudi Typhoons
UK is the lead nation on the Turkey sale…that means UK assembly. Same story for the Poland, Qatar and Saudi potential orders.
Manching will be busy enough with the 58 new Typhoon for the Luftwaffe, plus 15 EK conversions and adding ECRS Mk.1 to the German fleet.
Getafe in Spain has 45 new Typhoon to build, with Italy having 24 so far, and the potential of 24 for Egypt.
Indeed, I was under the impression that Turkey was our business.
I believe Leonardo/Italy is the lead for the Polish order.
It’s encouraging to see Euro fighter securing orders for gen 4.5 jets that offer real multirole capabilities.
The typhoon is possibly the best gen 4.5 aircraft for multirole.
All these order boost typhoon numbers upto 900 airframes so an impressive total. I do wish the RAF would order a new batch though so enabling scrapping of tranche 1 (or hopefully gifted to Ukraine).
I believe Turkey is pushing for local assembly with just the first few assembled here. Saudi was pushing for the same.
Saudi pushed for the same but it couldn’t be worked out. The equipment needed for manufacturong them was all ready but it ended up staying in Warton to make the 72 Saudi jets.
Turkey is looking to get the jets as fast as possible so local production is likely off the cards.
I thought that Saudi Arabia had a factory set up that produced most of their original order for 72 ?.
No, the Saudi jets were built with the Saudi production line, but in Warton. Warton hit 24 Eurofighters a year for the 6 years it took to make the Saudi aircraft.
3% is starting to look like far too little and if it’s not there for 2025/26 it will also be too late.
The second cold war has been going on for nearly three years now and if we don’t seriously step up defence spending then we will lose it and it will roll into the third world war, which we may also lose. Even if we win it will cost a lot of lives. We pretended to remember a few days ago but I don’t think most folk really understand what they were remembering.
Turkey will want domestic assembly so doesn’t help UK production.
This is insane.
With Russia not only resurgent but clearly hostile to the West, we and all of Europe need to be rearming as of yesterday.
The questions are always when Labour will increase spending to 2.5% of GDP but that’s not even enough. All NATO countries should increase to 3%, and we should build another 40-80 Typhoons over the next 5-10 years.
Couple of points here.
When the RAF loss it’s tranche one fleet, it’s going to be very very difficult to maintain 7 deployable squadrons as well as the Falklands flight. Infact it’s very likely that IX Bomber would be moved away from being front line deployable and we would end up with only 6 deployable typhoon squadrons. 107 aircraft for 7 deployable squadrons, an OCU, test and evaluation squadron and 12 squadron and the Falklands flight will be to tight. So I would see the loss of 12 and IX Bomber.
so just to maintain the status quo we really need 20 replacement aircraft.
Personally I think the Uk needs 8 deployable typhoon squadrons and 12 squadron should be converted to a front line squadron..at present with geopoliticals what are the min squadron deployments really needed.. four to maintain two QRA squadrons ( they need a rest and recycle every few years) two to maintain one in the med, then the ability to deploy at least one long term to the middle or far east.. so for that you really need at least another two squadrons..that comes to 8 and that’s not even following the rule or three.
So really to have those 8 squadrons you probably need 40 new aircraft.
Also we really don’t know when the 6 gen fighter will be ready for squadron level deployments and it would take many years to completely replace all the typhoon squadron..so even at fast pace we will be looking at typhoons flying until 2050.. but we know the pace of 5th generation development and 6th gen is likely to be even slower..so we may not even start seeing the first few aircraft operational until the mid 2040s..consider 67 of the remains typhoon fleet are tranche 2 airframes built between 2008 and 2013..so almost all of the RAF fleet is well over a decade old..by 2040 it will be a 30 year old fleet that due to numbers will have been heavily used…and most of the fleet will have burnt their airframe hours..that will be a problem into the 2040s unless the 6th Generation fighter is delivered well on time and production is very fast. The RAF will need plenty of airframe hours in its fleet to mitigate that risk.
Then we move to production..due to age of the typhoon fleet and airframe hours the 6th generation fighter will need to be built quickly and without production delays. The problem is if the UK typhoon line is shut down in 2025 and production of the new fighter does not start until 2035 at the earliest, you hit the “astute issue” as you have to rebuild your workforce, which takes years and you suffer massive delay and cost increases.right at the time the typhoon fleets airframe hours expires and becomes critical..basically we mortgage the future.
personally although there are cheaper in year in parliament capital options such as buying some second hand tranche 2 airframes..there still needs to be a keep the production line open order..40 new tranche 4 typhoons as well as converting 12 squadron to front line would be a massive intervention and make a geopolitical and geostrategic statement to our enemies and allies.
All sensible.
I doubt HMG are even remotely interested.
Or, they know something we don’t.
unfortunately I suspect it’s it’s the first, although I’m hanging onto the fact that Labour do need some flagships for their industrial strategy and keeping the typhoon line open would be a pretty good flag to wave around..killing two birds, looking “strong on defence” and building an industry up.
Reliant on the Turkish order that we’ve been working on for some time apparently.
When I read this article, your post, and then the ACMs speech getting the RAFs blows in for the upcoming SDSR I shake my head.
The different realities of each do not align.
I’ve been banging on about the reduced numbers needing replacement more regularly as the increased use caused by reduced numbers across our military means these platforms wear out faster. Don’t think the treasury has worked this out yet
I think they have Adrian, they just don’t care.
Good planning Jonathan. I can only but agree with your analysis, in particular 40 new T4’s. It’s the capability gap that worries me, with the loss of the T1’s- a cut is a cut,
Could they churn out some new Hawks (T3) to fill the missing 28 second batch that were supposed to be ordered over a decade ago?
I fear this will be a repeat of nuclear submarine building, where there was too big a gap between orders, skills were lost, & there was a heck of a job to get them back again.
Thought this F35A thing was long gone and dead at least as far as the UK was concerned. The advantages it offers in terms of bigger bomb bay and range are more than offset by the fact it won’t fly off our carriers. I would have thought that the range thing is more than countered by the fact that carrier born F35B can get much closer to target in any event. Don’t get me wrong I’m a great fan of Typhoon , it’s a great air defence fighter and will be even better with the new radar but is also highly capable when it comes to standoff strike. What our F35B really lack however is a long range anti ship land attack missile. Integrate JSM a no brainer to me . That aside and numbers not withstanding until GCAP comes along the F35B/Typhoon combination seems pretty much the perfect combination for UK.
Agree.
Just not enough of them.
The A has other advantages its cheaper by some margin than the B or Typhoon, whilst it fits with largely the same infrastructure as the B ie the flight training simulators are the same. Conversion between A and B will be easier than the Typhoon to B. The A has better availability as it’s less complex and that makes it cheaper to fly than the B or the Typhoon. The A interpolates with a lot of allies in Europe more than the Typhoon. Range, load and performance the A trumps the B.
Yes there negatives for buying the A but the main one is the carrier operation.
I’m not arguing for an A buy just stating some pro points that could be considered if it was put back on the table as an option. Infact I’ve be saying we should ensure Typhoon production should continue in many of my previous posts.
Plus that it cannot be refuelled currently by our AAR assets.
A is great once we have a second tranche of B for the Carriers, Voyager is converted to refuel it, and IF tempest did not exist.
The fundamentals around the F35B will be ensuring that second tranche buy so there are 74ish front line aircraft available, that would keep front line 3 squadrons going for the life of the carriers..after that it really does not matter so much if the RAF sneak in a F35A buy.
Well not to put too fine a point on it but at the moment …Tempest does NOT exist.
Yes, though I’m sure you know that what I meant was it’s 9, or was it 10 billion funding allocation over the next decade.
The program exists, even if the flying demonstrator does not.
It would not surprise me if they’re further down the road with that than they on either.
That’s a lot of F35A and Typhoons.
Again, as always, industry tomorrow takes precedence in HMGs priorities over the military now, or in the near term.
There’s the likes of Germany, Italy buying new Typhoons Spain upgrade there’s and NATO members putting more into to Defence and UK government stops our main fighter aircraft production.Tempest will no doubt be years away and for the F35 we’ve barely got 30 aircraft as if no rush. 🙄
Would they be doing that if they had Tempest, AUKUS, and Dreadnaught to fund?
HMG has it’s priorities, and it is NEVER the conventional military.
Would it make any difference if we didn’t have AUKUS, Tempest, or Dreadnaught ?
Probably not! They’d disperse the money elsewhere rather than plonking the lot into the RN, Army and RAF.
The fact remains though that some of these comparisons are not valid.
Those other government don’t have 15% of the world’s largest fighter program either.
Neither do they have SSN, or I would say spend 3 billion a year on the estate alone.
You can compare endlessly.
But yes, MoD does waste money and we know HMG habit of dragging things out for in year budget reasons does not help, nor destroying parts of our industry so it costs a small fortune to regenerate.
Hi DM
For me, it’s the capability gap loss with the retirement of the T1 Typhoon. I don’t really have a clear view as to weather T4 Typhoon or F35B is the better option, just that they commit to another 40-50 jets to fill the gap.
At the risk of sounding pessimistic, I can’t see SDR 2025 going well for the sharp end of the RAF.
I’m optimistic as there’s nothing left to cut before the ridiculous becomes the farcial.
I want Trump go hold Starmers feet to the fire on defence. Somebody has to embarrass them into taking action.
liking your point on Trump!
As long as Starmers allowed to hold Trumps head to it as well…
Deal! If it means our military is funded properly I care not on the collateral!
They raise plenty of sensible arguments, but the UK has no intention of upping FJ numbers and I sadly don’t see the SDR changing that.
The good news is Turkey is on the brink of ordering 40, with Saudi, Qatar and Oman all exploring further orders and Poland is also interested.
BAE is the lead on all of the above so if even only a couple of extra orders materialise soon there should be plenty of work to bridge the gap until Tempest.
Correct me if I’m wrong and out of date but the Brits are masters of low level precision bombing while everyone else are carpet aficionados… eg. Baghdad, Damascus and Gaza… I would also opine that fast attack drone swarms are the future and what’s needed is AAA with a booster of A.I.
I would like to apologise in advance for using the word booster as it does conjure up images of those who cannot think for themselves.
If UK have to kill 30000 enemies and they combat in cities the cities will be destroyed.
The size of war is what matters.
Ahhh !!! like Dresden.
Don’t forget your booster kid ! 😁❤️☮️
Not Dresden – Dresden had no much soldiers and was carpet bombed. Look at Mosul against ISIS and that with lots of population already evacuated. Fight in the cities will always have the city destroyed. Of course you can approach it like Dresden or like Baghdad, Gaza.
Bombing cities is totally barbaric from Guernica through to Gaza civilians have bourn the brunt of this savagery, siege was bad enough before modern industrialised slaughter, where we are being led now is not to the obliteration of tribesmen (who against all the odds fought back) with no heavy weaponry or air cover but to the unworkable 20th century concept of total war which can only lead to one or other of the superpowers being cornered and having no option but to go nuclear.
Peace appears to be the only viable option, and in my humble opinion the sooner the better. ☮️❤️
Hi Aurelius
Whilst I agree with you, it is important to remember history in the context of events. I doubt Brits in ww2 (especially Londoners) were opposed to Bomber command levelling German cities in retaliation. Its worth noting “Strategic Bombing” was an untested strategy and also the only way for the the UK to take offensive action to Germany.
I recall an interview with Albert Speer on the World at war series. Speer stated (I am paraphrasing here) that the USAF RAF bombing campaign effectively opened a second front for Germany from 1943. Defence assets had to assigned, which would have been better put to use against the Soviets,
That being said, it appears the lessons are never learnt, much to the collective shame of humanity.
Brother, all you say is true, we only have two world wars for reference and only one with airpower, industry did decide the victors, the USA supplied the allies including the soviets with everything from liberty ships (which where built faster than the Uboats could sink them, four days to complete one for propaganda purposes if I remember correctly) to boots.
Speer fought a losing battle as armaments minister from Kursk onwards even without bomber command and the USAF and was lucky to avoid the hangman at Nuremburg.
But, alas it’s gone from the bomber will always get through to ICBMs will destroy civilization.
With the advent of social media allowing us to witness the hell of war in real time maybe we will collectively see sense and stop this madness.
But being a student of war there doesn’t seem a way out, from a policy of deniable plausibility to unforgivable political naivety our leaders and elites seem unaware of the consequences of WW3.
Bringing on the doves, appears to be our only salvation. ❤️✌️
Mate, you are so correct. I have always followed the old dictum: “better a lean peace than a fat victory”. I think dialogue is important- whatever happens , we must keep talking with each other. There is a better way than blowing each other to pieces.
👍☮️
Yeah the fact Speer ‘got away with it’ amazes me …I assume one of the ‘victors’ wanted his ‘expertise’…same as Braun….
These eugenicsists where ruthless inhumane modern bezerkers, Speer was inner circle ffs and switched sides quicker than an Italian, the operation paperclip mob Von Braun, Debus, Dornberger, Heisenberg and the list goes on and on where considered too valuable to lose even though they had an immense amount of blood on their hands.
One of the the lessons of the holocaust has to be ‘if you’re clever enough you won’t face any consequences’
Love and peace brother, it’s the only way. ❤️✌️
Dresden was a massive PR victory by Gobbels. People think far more died than actually did. Just to be clear I’m not championing it in any way just stating a fact.
“Bombing cities is totally barbaric from Guernica through to Gaza civilians have bourn the brunt of this savagery.”
You are the savagery supporter. You are person that rewards Hamas not caring for Gaza civilians and punish for Israel for defending own civilians ,
Your savagery supporting is that you wanted that each of 30000 rockets fired from Gaza and Lebanon into Israel would have found a victim since you are saying that Israel should have protected their own civilians.
Unexpectedly you are a Socialist. You talked about Guernica, strangely you forgot to talk about Oviedo.
Strangely you forgot to talk about Mosul. But you certainly did not forgot Guernica , why did you forgot
“…saying that Israel should have protected their own civilians.”
Correction: …saying that Israel should not have protected their own civilians.
Low level bombing is no longer the main focus for the RAF. Since we now have Paveway, Brimstone and Storm Shadow. The days of dumb bombing are in the past. As that requires the parent aircraft to get too close to the target to drop its weapon. A medium then transcending to a low level approach, so that the aircraft minimizes its signature to ground based radar and air defences is now preferred. As it means the aircraft can get to a launch point hopefully without detection or at least being tracked. Launch the weapon, then turn away. Leaving the missile to get through the air defences.
Drone swarms are the current golden goose. But give it a few years and we will see effective countermeasures.
Thankyou for the update Davey, I didn’t know these missiles where air launched, (which seems obvious, now that I know)
I like to keep my finger on the pulse of politico/military affairs and from my obs I think the empty battlefield theory is coming to fruition at present, the IDF are tech’ing the hell out of the Arabs, and movement on the Ostfront is worse than Normandy ’44 (for both sides).I can’t comment much on Sudan but as I’m sure you know civil wars are the worst of all wars and barbarity is flourishing over there.
Personally I think once A.I. becomes the norm it will be a machino/tech conflict with troops used to hold cities and infrastructure as best they can while we do what we’re good at “killing each other”
I am for peace, as are the vast majority but the tiniest minority which advocate war are unfortunately our leaders and elites
Politics has truly become the continuation of warfare by any means.
Love and peace brother
There will be a legal issue when AI becomes more mainstream. How do you govern its use when the machine is used to kill? I’m pretty certain the U.K. would adhere to banning its use in terminal phases or purely autonomous uses in an engagement. But I’m also confident that other countries will ignore any legalities.
I remember seeing on an Abrams: “ Accept peace or die!”
I think you’ve covered all the bases my friend, I think it’s a political issue with the centrists urging caution while the left and right will be gung ho.
The fundamentalists of all denominations will be in their elements.
While the peacemakers will have their work cut out to make the warmongers see sense.
I think we both know how our American cousins will behave, the slogan on the Abrams panzer says it all.
Love and peace brother ☮️❤️
My only hope for Labour is the Unions who have political clout , will force Kier Starmer to build more planes , more frigates and more vehicles than is already planned for
There are 2 good reasons to agree withe the unions. Retention of sovereign capability is vital. We have all seen the problems with armoured vehicles when we had to start again from scratch.
Second, the RAF combat fleet is far too small. Integration of key UK weapons has been achieved on Typhoon. F35 is still limited to ASRAAM, AMRAAM and Paveway 4. Tech refresh 3 is still struggling. So there is little point on buying more F35B now. Simply comparing how frequently Typhoon is used in combat missions with how rarely F35 is, makes clear which aircraft we need more of over the next few years.
Nailed it right there, Typhoon is a proven platform and can carry / launch everything now, we have to wait until 2027/2028 to see the integration of non-US weapons on F-35B.
FCAS will not start production until the 2030’s and even then I am sure it will take time to integrate weapons onto the platform.
Get an order in place for more Typhoons to keep the line running and skills in place, not every battle needs 5th gen.
Pushing for more F-35 beyond 80 or 90 could undermine FCAS if it hits any problems, I am a big supporter of F-35 but I think right now we need a proven platform to work alongside it.
You make good points but actually if the government said we’re going to make Rafale in the same factory the unions would be happy. Case in point they were far happier building Honda and Nissan cars than British marks.
“…Tech refresh 3 is still struggling. So there is little point on buying more F35B now…”
No! By the time the RAF received a new ordered batch of F-35B’s, Tech Refresh will be fulfilled with Block 4 completed.
Another example of a failing defence industrial base strategy. The MOD should simply maintained a low continuous rate production for the majority war fighting aircraft like typhoon.
A new batch of 24-36 aircraft are needed to see aircraft production through to GCAP/ Tempest
In this day and age the manufacturer perhaps needs to consider the options. Build some more aircraft in the knowledge that with all the wars going on around the world there is likely to be a market for a decent aircraft amoungst our allies and keep the staff for GCAP or don’t and take the risk of not having the appropriate staff.
The unions are really appealing to the labour Government who cannot seriously dredge up money for everyone who demands it.
Difficult to understand Does the Government through expert advice consider the American F35 superior? From the comments stated in the letter it would appear that the other members of Eurofighter still believe in the Typhoon.And finally are the Unions more interested in keeping jobs more than anything else!!
Other Eurofighter members don’t produce 15% of the F35 so we are less motivated than they are. However it’s sad that the UK being one of tge pioneers of the fast jet currently no longer builds one abd is only making parts and sub assemblies
Well technically speaking the F35 is better than Typhoon. However it depends on the context. If you want an aircraft that can survive the first few days of a peer vs peer conflict, you pick the F35. If you’re in a conflict with a country that does not have multilayered air defences, AEW and 5th Gen jets, you pick Typhoon.
Stealth helps, but isn’t the golden bullet. As there are more of our weapons integrated on Typhoon than the F35. We are currently limited to Paveway for the F35’s ground attack weapon. Whereas Typhoon can carry it as well as Brimstone and Storm Shadow.
The F35 is a step change in capability over the Typhoon for stealthy missions, electronic warfare and surveillance, Whereas Typhoon is a true dog fighter and much better for QRA duties. In essence both aircraft are multi-role. But one is more biased for air role, whilst the other is more for the ground role (regardless of the lack of integrated weapons).
Gareth Jennings has posted some snippets of the Typhoon vs F35b scenario,of which the RAF is lucky enough to have both – the points were interesting to say the least.
We are talking about the labour party, the party that killed tsr2 in favour of American aircraft (on the advice of an botanist), the same party that bought German buses for London. I could go in but needless to say I think those working in typhoon need to go job hunting. The labour party will blame the mythical black hole, the one that didn’t stop them giving billions to other countries for climate change or spending billions to make illegal invaders comfier than our pensioners. That we clearly need an air force doesn’t matter, Putin will be here soon and given both parties have been destroying our military he won’t face much opposition
“…the party that killed tsr2”
The UK no longer required the TSR-2 from time of the decision to cancel it in 1965, because it was certain that strategic nuclear strike was to pass over to the RN Polaris submarine force. TSR-2 was unaffordable from that point.
TSR2 was NOT about nuclear strike it was a very capable combat plane in every way, far more capable than the American stuff we decided to buy instead, stuff that was inferior in every respect but price – it was actually more expensive even before you considered the loss of British jobs and expertise. We have made some terrible strategic blunders in the past 70 years to the point where today we cant make the steel for our new naval ships, we havent the expertise to build ships we dont have to send abroad for ‘corrections’ and we even have our replenishment ships maintained in India because we dont think that spending money employing our own people is as cost effective as paying them dole while letting the Indians photograph everything for the russians to know exactly what we do and dont have!
Nonsense, the TSR2’s primary role was to be the UK’s strategic nuclear strike force, if the Polaris Sales Agreement had fallen through. The UK MoD had planned to spend the equivalent of £12.5Bn in today’s money on the TSR2. Even after spending £3.3Bn in today’s money in development cost, still did not fix the problems with developing the TSR2.
Eventually the UK MoD did not even buy the American built F-111, due to being just as expensive.
Why would Arab counties, and others, invest in British aircraft, if the British govt is supporting genocide by Israel?
The UK may be required to toe the US line, for a variety of reasons, but it puts the UK on the wrong side of history… and when the UK is totally dependent upon US weapons (B61’s etc)… and US codes to even fly the US aircraft… where does that leave the UK???
Erm because Iran has been power grabbing and destabilising in the region for decades. Sunni/Shia struggle is centuries old and Sunni Arabs are more fear full of Iran than Isreal. Saudi was on the verge of normalising relations with Isreal the UAE had already done this. That frightens Iran. Sunni Arab states and Lebanonese Christians aren’t to worried about Shia Hezbollah getting a kicking either. Or Isreal hitting Iran with retaliatory strikes or US and UK hitting Shia Houthi terrorists for targetting civilian vessels. So there’s plenty of reason for Sunny Arab states to buy UK and US weapons. Lastly although Hamas are Sunni they have their strings pulled by Shia Iran.
OK… International politics in complex… but defending the actions of Israel will not get UK aircraft sales to oil rich countries… and that’s a fact.
It’s fact? UK was complicit in creating modern isreal and has sold billions in arms to Saudi Kuwait Qatar Oman Jordan since its creation. France backs Isreal and iis also a key arms supplier to most Arab states. The reality is the facts speak for themselves.
Maybe you should check what is the definition of Genocide before you start your hateful speech.
It isn’t hate speech… Its what the world says Israel is doing… And it isn’t good for the UK, economically, in the defence business, to support it. The global wealth is with the oil rich nations… and they don’t like Israel… It’s economic madness to side with Israel.
For those with eyes to see, regarding what constitutes genocide…
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
So Hamas by its publicly declared charter is guilty of Genocide, and the people of Gaza who voted them into power are also guilty of Genocide. In trying to stop these crimes Israel is innocent. Excellent!
By the same definition Russia is as guilty of Genocide as Hamas and all who support them.
Whoever is paying you to post this racist crap needs to think through what they are doing.
Ah right so it’s only economics we should be concerned about. I understand you now.
This is business… it is not in the economic best interests of the UK to support Israel…
Not all Arabs/Muslims support the 75yr old war to genocide the Jews. Many see Hamas and apologists as the Nazi equivalents they are. Israel is just defending itself with admirable restrain. The only people saying otherwise are the jew hating and generally anti-western racists on the left of the Western world and the anti western elements using them as a front.
If they want to continue building planes, someone needs to crack on a train new pilots, first. The bottleneck is not platforms, it’s people.
Germany has just approved the sale of 40 typhoons to Turkey, will this not help BAE systems??
If true then definately yes .
… and with any luck an additional Saudi order (that’s been in limbo for years) – as the Germans now appear to have come to terms with Turkish Human Rights etc let’s hope they now feel the same way about Riyadh
The Typhoon is industrially far more significant to the UK than the f35. The Typhoon still has development potential with clearance of conformal tanks to allow for greater strike range without drag penalty and upgrades to the engines to give 10 to 20% more thrust. The RAF needs at least another 24 to 48 new build Typhoons for the sort of combat the UK is likely to be involved with and another order of at least 12 BAE Hawks with the slatted wing and the Adour 941 LP compressor swapped out for a UK sourced one to get round the problems the engine had. The UK air arm needs bigger numbers and a none operationally sovereign F35 is not the correct answer. The Typhoon is arguably still the best combat jet in the world and could garner more overseas orders and lead nicely onto the Tempest and a naval Tempest (Sea Fury II) to replace the problem prone and ludicrously expensive F35B.
A Naval Tempest is a non starter – the QE’s are big but likely too small to operate an Aircraft the size Tempest will be.There is no requirement for Tempest to be able to operate off an Aircraft Carrier,unlike it’s French equivalent.
Seriously. Hello. The Buccaneers, large heavy aircraft, flew from carriers one fifth smaller than the QE carriers. Tempest, aka Sea Firy II could easily fly off the QE carriers with the will to do it. Don’t be absurd.
Whatever Buccaneers did off of Aircraft Carriers ( equipped with Steam Catapults btw ) in the 60’s and 70’s is irrelevant in this case ,the GCAP/Tempest won/t be going to Sea – stop spouting rubbish !.
Funding should be diverted towards the Tempest. The Typhoon is obsolete, even the F-35 numbers should be cut to free up funding for our own 6th generation aircraft. We should be focused on cutting edge design, not committed to funding an ageing aircraft design we are already in the process of replacing.
Whichever way you look at it Tempest/GCAP will need an absolute mountain of money thrown at it to get it into service – it has to be a balancing act between your current requirements and capabilities set against your future needs.You can’t always gamble the family farm on ‘Jam tomorrow’,you have to spread the risk and buy for today too.