At 0200 UK time this morning, British forces joined close Allies in a precision strike on Syrian installations involved in the regime’s use of chemical weapons.
The strike was launched as a response to the chemical weapon attack on the 7th of April in Douma which killed up to 75 people, including young children; a significant body of information, including intelligence, indicates that the Syrian regime was responsible for this latest attack.
According to a government statement:
“As the Prime Minister has made clear, this pattern of behaviour must be stopped, not just to protect innocent people in Syria from these horrific weapons, but also because the erosion cannot be allowed of the international norms that prevent the use of chemical weapons.
Our action is proportionate, specifically aimed at degrading the regime’s ability to use chemical weapons and deterring further such appalling acts; it is therefore focused on regime facilities linked to the production and use of chemical weapons.”
The UK element of the coordinated joint action was contributed by four Royal Air Force Tornado GR4s. They launched Storm Shadow missiles at a military facility – a former missile base – some fifteen miles west of Homs, where the regime is assessed to keep chemical weapon precursors stockpiled in breach of Syria’s obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention. Careful analysis was applied to determine where best to target the Storm Shadows to maximise the destruction of the stockpiled chemicals and to minimise any risks of contamination to the surrounding area. The facility which was struck is located some distance from any known concentrations of civilian habitation, reducing yet further any such risk according to officials.
Detailed analysis of the effectiveness of the strike is currently underway, but initial indications are that the precision of the Storm Shadow weapons and meticulous target planning have resulted in a successful attack say the MoD.
Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson said:
“The reprehensible use of chemical weapons in Douma is further evidence of the Syrian regime’s appalling cruelty against its own people. We will not stand by whilst innocent civilians, including women and children, are killed and made to suffer.
The international community has responded decisively with legal and proportionate military force. Let these united actions send a clear message to the regime – the use of chemical weapons is categorically unacceptable and you will be held to account.”
What’s the load out on that tornado? 2 storm Shadow I can see and a paveway? Cant tell if the other is ammram or some sort of pod
Paveway?
Jamming Pod outer Pylon /Fuel Tanks / Asraam ( I think? ) / Storm Shadow under fuselage.
I don’t believe our GR4 carry AMRAAM, that is not their mission.
This BBC report (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43763605) has a photo (the first one) of one of the Tornados from a different angle. Maybe I’m mistaken but it looks to me to be carrying 2 Storm Shadow, one on each of the heavy duty underxfuselage pylons. According to Wikipedia this is a within-specification load. The first photo in the body of the article might confirm this – I think I can see a second Storm Shadow on the far side of the fuselage visible if you look beyond where that red tape is hanging down near the nose wheel. If it was 2 x… Read more »
Seems reasonable in case 1 Missile goes U/S
Also they might not all have launched there might have been spares in case the aircraft itself had to abort.
UK contributed plenty I’m sure, not just offensively but other stuff behind the scenes.
Apparently the UK launched 8 and France launched 12. Each of the four UK Tornado aircraft fired two Storm Shadow missiles each.
Thanks Ben. I was just going to post the link that Nigel posted down at the bottom of the comments section to a CNN article that shows a photo of one of our returning aircraft with no Storm Shadow remaining. The article is here…
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/14/politics/syria-airstrikes-weapons-used-intl/index.html
(Chris H) I would be very surprised if the Astute sub we have there wasn’t used to add Tomahawks to the attacks. It would be an ideal proof of concept and equipment. Nothing like firing in anger to see how well something works.
So I suspect that the UK fired more than those 8 Storm Shadows but given we never comment on submarine deployments or activities whatever the Astute did will forever be only known in command and boat logs
Chris it did not. All the assets used for the attack have now been disclosed. The UK contributed 8 Storm Shadows in total.
The only submarine that took part was a US one.
i see comrade corbyn (a bigger threat to the u.k than russia) has begun his pathetic , simpering pacifist drivel already, this, from a p.m wannabe, shows the labour party has totally lost the plot, they should remove him.
We are governed by idiots and fools,i hope a stray Russian missile hits the Houses of Parliament i for one wouldn’t give a monkeys toss.
Then you’ll truly have ww3 on your hands. Spare us your inane and ridiculous comments please.
What! and we aren’t heading in that direction now?The Syrians have a perfect right to defend themselves being a sovereign country so when then do retaliate with whatever means at their disposal including buying Russian or Chinese or North Korean missiles this won’t escalate is that what you are saying,Jesus Christ man you are deluded beyond belief
Pratski!
Oh no Russian bot!
What an ill-judged comment Marc. We have just witnessed yet another deployment of chemical weaponry, the most horrifying form of warfare. In a nuclear exchange, most people within 20 miles will die almost immediately but with a chemical/germ weapon; thousand will suffer the most horrendous death, which for many will be a slow lingering one. By demonstrating an international will to physically punish those who use these hideous systems, we can deter others who believe they can be used with impunity. Thank goodness there are some countries who will punish those who care little for the suffering of innocents and… Read more »
Well said Maurice.
Good grief.
Absolute bullshit no evidence for a chemical attack whatsoever apart from a dopey video ,they didn’t even give the inspectors time to get to the alleged attack because they were terrified their rhetoric would prove to be utter tripe,not to worry you got to test the Storm Shadow at £700000 a pop and the Daily Mail did lovely graphic depictions which you lot probably enjoy.
So what would you do Marc in the face of foreign chemical attacks? Either at home ( Salisbury) or abroad
For crying out loud if it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt of course do what has to be done but the evidence or proof of guilt is not there in the two instances you have given .
You mean like Libya,that turned out well didn’t it.
Marc nice try russian bot
English born and bred and proud of it at least i was until a few years ago when we were sold out by the establishment and it’s ilk bought lock stock and barrel by the Saudis and Qataris now i fight for what is close to me and nothing else .
Are we adding to our collection of Trolls here? We’ll have a full house soon.
Yes, they’ll be out in force right now. Moscow must be livid at the strikes!
Are you on drugs?
Want to live in an echo chamber do you mate.
If you don’t like this country so much that you’d which for such a horrendous thing. Then get out.
I love my country i despise the idiots running it,and btw mine is empty rhetoric you are the ones applauding real deaths with real weapons.
Where applauding military action taken against a savage government amid at weapons and weapons facilities, not the people there.
They are defending themselves against a savage enemy which they a right to do.
There own citizens
It’s a civil war none of our business.
“The UK Government and our closest allies bombed chemical weapons facilities in response to a chemical weapon attack so I really wish a foreign power would bomb our parliament”…
are you comrade corbyn by any chance?
Haven’t we learnt any lesson at all from Iraq,Afghanistan,Libya?the Islamics have no idea nor the slightest interest in democracy you cannot bomb it into them or spend trillions thinking this largesse will change them how many times must the west immerse itself in the middle eastern quagmire before we see sense?
Marc, as our American friends say, ‘Take a powder and retire to a darkened room.’
Maurice do the Americans really say that or have you just made that up?
There’s the use of “monkeys” again, do you spend a lot of time in the zoo?
Yawn!
(Chris H) Can I remind everyone of a valid piece of advice someone once gave me:
“Feedeth not the Troll”
That’s always good advice Chris.
“Feedeth not the Troll” someone really gave you that advice did they who was it Laurence Olivier?
Marc are you sitting in Moscow or Damascus. You are obviously on a payroll. They did wrong, they got caught out and I’m glad we did something about it. Something Obama should have done. Tell you pay masters to give their heads a shake with the Rhetric. They shit down how many and no pictures? We told them what we were targeting and yet no pictures from Moscow showing that we failed. Great job by all. Marc give your head a shake and go back to your pay masters becouse none of us are buying the utter shite you have… Read more »
So the coalition now know where the radar sites are for the Syrian SAMs and their operating parameters.
That’s handy.
It would appear from reports that the Russian systems stayed down and offline. I have no doubt that there where a number of Rivet Joints up itching to do some Sigint against the Russian systems if they came online.
Its not just the strikes that count its the whole reaction from the opposition before during and after that will be watched , monitored recorded and analysed for future use, should it be needed.
I agree.
The really interesting bit no one gets to see and certainly which the news channels will make little mention.
Our R1’s excelled at ELINT rather than SIGINT or COMINT I read so hope the Rivet’s are of the same standard, or better.
JSSU (C) on the doorstep listening in too.
And by attacking them with older weapons we dont really give to much away.
We attacked with our most modern cruise missiles.
pathetic, simpering p.m wannabe has started his pacifist drivel, he’s a joke
We are not even talking about JC. Go rant somewhere else.
You are right, i was refering to the tornados, but now i think about it its a bit silly.
Hi Gunbuster Syrian airspace is heavily monitored by a variety of systems both airborne, seaborne and elsewhere. The Russians are currently using it as a testbed for a variety of weapon systems under the guise of supporting the Assad regime in its battle with their own people. It is also very conveniently off the coast of Cyprus – as Daniele has pointed out above, we put JSSU units in strategic locations and this one is definitely one of those. Over the next couple of weeks, when this calms down a bit and the site goes back to talking about platforms… Read more »
I have plenty of experience of sigint from being on a Batch 2 T22. Lots of stuff done on board but plenty of it going over the satcom back to the UK for other agencies to look at and analyse. RN units have had data fusion in various forms and in various guises of Link over the years. Add into that CSS and all the other networked systems that Int comes over and the picture you get in the pod room is pretty comprehensive. I wasn’t going to mention the units in the SBA on Cyprus or at the airfield.… Read more »
Fascinating stuff gunbuster. Sure you cannot go into details, you’ve probably been to Leydene building RN wise.
The varied facilities on Cyprus and the units housed in them are well documented so no secrets spilled there if one knows what to look for. 9 Reg was in the news as far back as the mid 80s with the KGB spies scandal.
A place in Lincolnshire will be involved with this Syria business too, and I don’t mean the River Joints.
Pfff
Looks like a very limited attack and we trod very carefully around Russia. It all smacks of there being agreements made behind the scenes with Russia, whilst the rhetoric in the public domain staying strong and confrontational. That way neither side looks weak. I’m not sure what last night has really achieved. The Syrians has plenty of notice to hide their planes and move any chemical weapons. I was in two minds if we should get involved, but if you do something you do it properly. I think Russia is mostly bluster and empty threats, this was a chance to… Read more »
I agree entirely. Backchannel working well. This way no one loses face. The west was seen to take action, with little real effect but that is not the point, and the Russians can strut around acting tough. Putin said little so does not lose face either, but wins ultimately as Assad and Russia remain in Syria, which is fine by me actually as I agree with Sole’s comments on the wider geopolitical game being played here. As Gunbuster said above with the A400 systems remaining turned off that hardly fits the previous Russian rhetoric either. But they know as well… Read more »
Don’t entirely agree. I think the Russians have lost a lot of credibility here. The West has reached its line in the sand with Russian lies and deceit and they have called Putins bluff with these strikes. There may well have been some prior discussion with Russia but it looks like the conversation went something like… “there will be strikes against Syria whether you like it or not; so do you want to really want your S400 sites destroyed as well?”.
Here’s essentially what happened we bombed a few relatively useless buildings at a Syrian base. Just like last year I might add. Russia will feel no need to escalate in retaliation. So they will do what they did last year and bomb a few Kurds.
None of the Big Boys get truly damaged. Just not a good day to be a proxy of either East or West.
So our government is lying to us once again.
stop pussyfooting and nuke ’em’
Andy….behave!
Calm down Andy, nuking anyone would be irresponsible insanity. We need to change the behaviour of Assad’s leadership in Syria, not obliterate millions, give most of the rest a slow agonising death, future generations early deaths & genetic abnormalities; that’s hoping it wouldn’t start a wider nuclear exchange. It’s a very tricky situation, but we must deter & punish chemical weapons use. Russia obviously will continue to block any UN action against Assad & spin it as our fault. I just hope any action we take will not be just a token response. Trump as POTUS is ridiculous enough, a… Read more »
And we get an uplift in defence budget as the only positive thing to out of it!
Your probably right about not provoking Russia, I just hate their over inflated ego, the way they manipulate the world with under hand tactics and their overt machoism. If they are to ever be reigned in they must be shown to provide empty threats and not the power they purvey.
Just out of interest, does anyone know if the US carrier strike group had arrived? If not, what is the purpose of sending it? Maybe there are bigger plans ahead we don’t yet know about, but hopefully just an insurance policy if Russia had responded…
Good point. Must be the latter as you suggest as Secretary Matis has said Strikes are now over.
Not due till the beginning of May
The US carrier group is 5-7 days away from getting to Europe. Regardless, it was never coming in response to Syria. It is on a regular, very long scheduled deployment to the Med/Gulf region.
since obama recalled all u.s carriers to port there hasn’t been a full carrier battle group in the med. the french, escorting charles de gaulle have a presence towards thee astern end . i’d expect matters are in hand to gather and deploy one as soon as they can get it organised. cyprus is in effect a battle group by itself. protected on land by nato, at sea by italy and france and by air, everyone. including israel.
Simply not true. Stop quoting unsubstantiated gossip. The incident you are talking about, there was one carrier deploying at the time, it was simply an unfortunate period where the US carrier scedule had the majority of them at home. Nothing to do with Obama.
As for deployments, the US simply does not keep a carrier permanently in the Med. A US carrier normally covers both the Med and Gulf, been in the latter the majority of the time.
As for the upcoming CSG, it is in the Med for a period before heading to the Gulf.
I thought the US 6th fleet was always in the Med & was surprised it was not immediately available for strikes. Trump giving such early notice that we would attack is appallingly stupid, giving the Russians & Syrians plenty of time to minimise losses & prepare defenses.
6th Fleet is always in the Mediterranean. What it doesn’t have is a permanently assigned carrier, it shares a CSG with Persian Gulf/Indian Ocean operations area due to the Sues Canal. This is because of the Italian and Spanish Harrier carriers, the Charles De Gaule, and formerly the RN Harrier carriers, being seen as sufficient Air assets in theater. 6th fleet permanently assigned assets are CGs, DDGs, and SSNs. Add to this the ability to shift B1s filled with anti-surface missiles to the bases in Italy and Sicily or to Diego Garcia and Bahrain to cover the other end of… Read more »
Correct. On average there are always about 4 US destroyers assigned to 6th fleet.
Interestingly, uss wasp has landed in neighbouring Jordan, with 2000 marines and lots of armoured vehicles for a ‘training exercise’.
Ground action is not even remotely a possibility here. Don’t read anything in to USS Wasp.
USMC exercise in Jordan followed by Israel at the end of spring or beginning of summer relatively regularly.
The final analysis of successful strikes against their intended targets will be interesting to see. Quote. “Syria: Air defenses shot down many missiles The Russian news agency RIA added “over 100 cruise missiles and air to ground missiles were launched by the air and sea missile carriers of USA, France and the UK, aimed at military and civilian objects of the Syrian Arab Republic.” The state-run Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA) reported government forces “confronted on Saturday a tripartite aggression launched by the US, France and Britain on a number of sites in the surroundings of Damascus and Homs.” Targets… Read more »
Were these missiles targetting Homs Tomahawk, MdCn or Storm Shadow? Lools like the defences claim to have scrambled the GPS guidance and/or image recognition guidance on some of these missiles. Big difference between several and ‘the majority’ unless the actual number was small.
Paul – Yes. All three countries used their most modern cruise missiles. The claim quoted here is from a Syrian/Russian news channel. No way did a bunch of old SAMs operated by Syrian shoot down even a fraction of 100+ modern cruise missiles.
Would I be right in thinking a numerically large attack can overwhelm an older missile defence radar? I’m no expert on the capabilties of the systems the Russians have sold the Syrians.
Most advanced they have is the super old S-200s.
The BBC report shows a French tweet of one of its frigates launching a cruise missile. That must have been the French maritime version of Storm Shadow (MdCN) fired from a FREMM’s Sylver A70. That got me thinking about options for what the U.K. does when Tomahawk production stops. SPEAR 4 & 5 seems to following the same pattern as SPEAR 2 & 3. SPEAR 2 was an update to Brimstone until SPEAR 3 delivers the next generation weapon, similarly SPEAR 4 will be an update to Storm Shadow until SPEAR 5 hopefully delivers the next generation cruise missile. MdCN… Read more »
I hope & pray the MOD has something better than a long capability gap in such a primary escort weapon that anti-ship missiles is. They’ve allowed several glaring gaps before, which doen’t bode well. Our personel must have the kit necessary for modern warfare, not be deployed in vessels partly disarmed. They’ve extended the deployment of harpoon for the time being, but who in their right mind even considers removing them with no immediate replacement? At the absolate least we should buy off the shelf new Harpoons or other ASMs until our own new ASMs are servicable. Does any other… Read more »
Sadly, Russia has won again, this is an extremely weak response from the western allies. This will only encourage Russia and her allies to operate in any manner they see fit. The longer a real response is delayed the worse it will be.
It’s proportionate Mike, it lays down a marker and that’s all that’s need right now.
With all respect you are assuming they think as us, megalomaniacs who believe the break-up of the USSR was a mistake do not – they have there own agenda, that should be obvious.
I concur with dadsarmy. I think this time Russia and Syria will restrain themselves on CW.
I will be much more worried if they do it again, because then limited action won’t be the end of it.
Whilst I like very much the Russian people, the state has a long history of blaming others for its crimes and cheating the system; Katyn, Cuba, Dead Hand, Sochi, CW and on.
If they do it again its to incite limited action.
Disagree. I would not be surprised if the chemical attack was committed by rogue troops. I don’t think we can assume Assad is in control of all his men. What was needed was a prompt school caning and this is what handed out.
Do these “rogue troops” also have helicopters?
Frankly I have no idea. Could troops with piloting skills and Turkish or Islamist sympathies be present in the Syrian army and threaten or bribe their commanders? Absolutely.
That said I accept that the most likely actors were authorised by Assad or a senior commander as a grotesque calculation that any response by the US and allies would be a price worth paying for gaining ground against the opposition. That is the pattern of Assad behaviour.
That is kinda an elephant in the room, but Assad is all about control & I’m sure he would have made it deadly, painfully clear to his minions if he didn’t want any use of chemical weapons. I can’t see it happening so often if he did not allow it.
Now we need to hope & pray Putins threats against us are just bluster as our armed forces are at a very low ebb. Cuts & capability gaps will come home to haunt us.
The strikes had little to no effect. But as far as Russia goes, they completely failed to respond. Their SAMs stayed offline. They have been completely humiliated by NATO after all their talk of responding.
The west now knows that they can dunk their balls on Syria any time of the day and Russia is not going to do a dam thing.
Agreed!
I respectfully disagree. Russia was put into the position of being a spectator on the sidelines. They had to move their military assets out of harms way and take what was coming – however small it was. The air defence system they gave to Syria was completely useless – despite the claims of success by the Syrians.
Well, there’s been some balance to other events in Cold War terms, but the one that hasn’t been balanced is Syria, where Putin gained a huge propoganda victory over Syria and the chemical weapons. This should be seen as a counter-coup, and accepted as such by Putin, an old Cold War warriror, with the 3 western leaders having no previous experience of that. And sad to say, since Cameron was defeated in the Commons, May was absolutely right to bypass it completely – and this is me, a “nat” talking. But I think, if this all blows over, and Putin… Read more »
Good for you. Sometimes we need to look beyond our tribal loyalties. You’re absolutely correct.
It was interesting to me to see the platform used by our aircrews after posting a comment a little over an hour prior to the breaking news of the strike on Syrian targets at the bottom the F-35 development phase concludes article. Did we, or our allies, use stealth aircraft to deliver any of the weapons used in this latest attack? Or, did the risk of being shot down by the Russian S400 air defence system take this option off the table? My understanding is, that Storm Shadow can only be fitted to our ageing Tornado fleet which is to… Read more »
If you read this post in context I think you will see my point!
Storm Shadow is being integrated onto Typhoon under Project Centurion, along with Brimstone, so that when Tornado leaves service, both weapons will be available for use by Typhoon.
Correct!
The Americans have classified Stealth aircraft other than F35 /F22 / B2, mainly in the ISTAR field, often UAV’s with long held rumours of other manned systems. A platform purely for ISTAR and not an offensive system could be a lot stealthier. If they used any of them in the run up, during, or after the strikes to monitor events in real time no one knows, but would not surprise me. The issue with GR4 retirement is not a loss of capability but of numbers, as it will be some time until sufficient F35 are on stream to replace them.… Read more »
As I touched upon in my post last night.
Storm shadow can be launched from both Tornado and Typhoon.
There is no need to use stealth aircraft when you can achieve the job by launching very accurate and hard to hit cruise missiles from standoff range outside of enemy air defenses.
I refer to my post again last night Ben at the bottom of the F-35 development phase concludes article.
Oh for Christ’s sake, I was hoping we’d think clearly and avoid this mess. Thanks Mrs May, way to make the military even more unpopular when we had the perfect opportunity to turn military expenditure into a vote winner
I don’t think that’s the case Levi. We don’t like being attacked, especially at home, and I suspect the average voter reckons a bully needs a smack rather then just being left to get away with it.
To the average voter who doesn’t know much about military affairs this smacks of nation building in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya
You may be right but the attitude I witness every day at work or at the pub for a pint is not nation building but more along the lines of “B…..d’s, who the hell do they think they are? They need sorting out” Iraq etc. might not have been popular (me included) but this is an attack that took place on British streets. it’s different.
See that Corbyn is saying it should have been a vote in the commons Below is what i wrote on another page so i copied ans am pasting it And if you read it imagine what the vote would be with the commie lover in charge of the labour party ” All this Syria stuff could have been stopped in its tracks had the Labour leader of the time had backed PM Cameron on a no-fly zone in 2013 He said he was which gave the hope that he would side with the government and when it came to the… Read more »
‘That war could have been stopped before it really got started’
I think it was well underway by then. Incidentally one of the BBC’s correspondent’s said that if the Russians hadn’t intervened in 2012 IS would have defeated Assad and taken over Syria. I’m no fan of either Assad or Putin but we shouldn’t be myopic about the confused situation there. Putin’s playing the cold war tough guy, of course, but he didn’t want the spreading of IS in areas close to his southern borders.
If Daesh had defeated Assad, arguably that would have been a better outcome, as their subsequent routing would have been much simpler than the multitude of players in Syria now. Daesh are now a spent force to all intents and purposes. Assad, with Russia and Iran heavily involved, unfortunately is here for a bit longer.
I suggest we up our security at our borders, as the Russians/Syrians, may strike back indirectly, by releasing captured Daesh & giving them tickets/false documents/weapons & sending them in the direction of the UK/France. Then they could say after a terrorist atrocity “See we told you the jihadists were the real threat”. Good KGB/FSB propaganda.
I guess it’s possible. Sadly HMG is very good at letting them in already, complete with access to benefits and a council house, while our war veterans get what exactly? The Security service is said to be monitoring directly or indirectly over 3000 people, including Jihadists who went to Syria to fight with IS and can somehow magically come back here and continue as if nothing had happened. Quite amazing. Concerning Russia though, it has been said for some time that the Security Service has been devoting too much of its resource into International terrorism and not enough on the… Read more »
Yes, Britain should stop UK real estate/property from being owned by anonymous companies in tax havens. Likewise, the UK should not grant planning permission to tax haven companies wanting to develop greenfield sites. If land is worth £20k an acre without planning permission, but £2 million an acre with planning permission, then the potential for corruption is obvious, except to several UK governments that have refused to bring in transparency.
How do we know if Putin & his gangster cronies are profiting from the UK housing bubble?
It is going to be interesting to see how Russia now counter acts, it clearly will.
I suspect it won’t be an aggressive military action, so probably involving moving more troops and hardware to Syria or the European borders, plus maybe some increased flybys.
I think it is pretty clear that this was all agreed in advance with Russia, considering the gap between announcing and taking action.
Afternoon
They may do as they did before, show their toys off, in Syria against “terrorists” at the invitation of the legitimate government of Syria – The Assad puppet regime
No, it will always be a member of the UNSC P5 which carries its own responsibilities.
The UK makes its own decisions. But your last sentence gives away your true issues…this countries foreign policy which so often reflects that of the USA and our other allies.
I’m beginning to wonder if Tornado end date should be pushed back. I get that Typhoon numbers are intended to cover the shortfall, but this workhorse continues to be at the heart of our air power. Maybe there’s an argument for keeping them on a while longer?
One issue is that the build up of extra Typhoon Squadrons is dependent on the air and ground crews from the Tornado units moving over to Typhoon, so keeping one fleet on going directly effects the build up of the other.
12 ( B ) Squadron has already disbanded.
I do not know what state the aircraft are in or the costs logistically of keeping them going?
Tornado is at the end of its service life. The air frames are knackered and need to be retired.
Typhoon can take over the job in the meantime until we get the F35 and FCAS.
(Chris H) Ben P – well said. The Typhoon is on a long term upward curve of capability and is on schedule to replace the Tonka next year. And not only replace but add significant new capabilities, options and flexibilities only that come with Typhoon Where I would gently diverge is that F-35 (especially in ‘B’ format) will not be and was never intended to be a replacement for the Tonka. It can’t be and yet I see this myth peddled on here quite often. It brings back what the RAF lost with the Harrier, brings 5th Gen full carrier… Read more »
Hi Ben, until recently, the original plan was to keep Tornado running until 2025.
The current withdrawal date of 2019 was always suspected to be in response to budgetary pressures.
I’ve not heard the airframes are suffering from critical fatigue issues, but happy to read any sources you may have on the topic ……
Afraid not. The Tornado was supposed to go out of service in 2016. The air frames are close to 40 years old. The only reason it was delayed by a couple years was to wait for the Typhoon to be capable of taking on its role due to Syria/Iraq. Which with Brimstone and Storm Shadow been implemented by next year it allows the Tornado to finally go. Also we have had less than 30 Tornados in service for awhile.
Hi Ben, Yes – but until SDSR 2010, the OSD date of the Tornado GR4 force was anticipated to be around 2025. And of course, not all the airframes are 40 years old – the IDS production-run for the RAF ran on until about 1990. It’s performance at medium altitude has always been a bit lumbering, but in terms of capability – Tornado and its aircrew are at the top of their game. The premature withdrawal of the force will put pressure on the Typhoon – those seven squadrons are going to be worked very hard, until the F-35 gains… Read more »
Ben/Alan I’m pretty sure that late in the Tornado production run the Govt/Mod offered the RAF an additional 48 Aircraft due to attrition levels at that time plus replacements for the losses in GW1.The RAF turned down this offer to guarantee funds for the forthcoming Typhoon programme,i wonder if they would have done the same now,we certainly would have more available today and service into the 2020’s would be more viable.
It was a mistake to run the Tornado FGT4 force down prematurely; there was an option to carry out a relatively modest upgrade programme to keep them flying until 2025 or later. The result, however it is dressed-up with talk of the two additional Typhoon squadrons, has just been another significant cut in the number of fast jet combat aircraft. Before the game of musical chairs started, we had 8 squadrons with 200 aircraft, 72 Tornado, 128 Typhoon. When the music stops later this year, we will have 7 squadrons with at most 140 aircraft (excluding the initial F-35s that… Read more »
Wow. Are you sort of guy who would see someone getting mugged in the street or a woman about to be raped in a dark alley and walk on by saying “it’s not my job to try and help people, there are police and other emergency services that do that”. I’ll admit that foreign interventions have often been ill thought through but that does not mean that countries of good conscience should stand by when others are being brutalised on a mass scale and leaving it all to the USA to do something about is pathetic to say the least.… Read more »
I am on record as thinking that we had no legal basis to attack the Syrian State itself but I wait to be convinced. That is distinct from attacking DAESH wherever the evil bastards are. However now that British Forces have been committed to action my personal beliefs do not matter any more and I stand full square behind the PM, the MoD and the lads and lasses doing what they do best. While I was sceptical I have to say Theresa May seems to grow in capability and stature with every major catastrophe, problem or drama she has had… Read more »
(Chris H) Sorry should have indicated the above was me ….lol
Chris….I think many regularly on here can tell, I certainly could!
Posters all have a certain way with words.
Well said Chris
Seconded. Absolutely.
Chris a great post regarding our current leader of the opposition but unfortunately our then PM was also totally out of his depth. Remember his well judged Libyan intervention, which has led to the disintegration of that country. If we had created a no fly zone then ISIS would have won in Syria and we would have had to intervened on the ground. Let Syria have their civil war, however, sad it is to see but let’s not get involved.
But the use of chemical weapons in that war must and has been punished. Let’s hope they get the message.
I think you are correct. I suspect the action was illegal under international law. My grandmother used to say two wrongs don’t make a right. That said the question should really be was the action morally right? And I think here the answer is yes. Corbyn is wittering on about parliamentary votes and legality. Fact is sometimes in life you have to trust your feelings in light of the best info you have. Russia is the reason the legal authorisarion cannot be obtained for a morally correct action.
I think you’re deluded Chris, you seem to be in this bubble of certainty that the opposition must back the government as soon as there is talk of military action. Military action isn’t some big happy sing song where the nation gets together and holds hands. Peoples sons and daughter’s are being sent into a war zone without UN approval and without the general public’s approval. Here is the only times I can think off that the PM should have the sole decision to authorise military action, self defence or a treaty obligation. There is one reason why Theresa May… Read more »
Thersa May could well have reined in Macron and Trump so the mission was proportionate, justifiable and not inflammatory. She is a clear thinker on moral issues. Benefits of being a vicar’s daughter. Hence Trump’s comment regarding the ‘wisdom’ of US allies.
Theresa May can reign in Donald Trump ?
Come on Paul you don’t really believe that do you?
“She is a clear thinker on moral issues”
She has voted 10 times against human rights, 6 times against the fox hunting ban, 3 times against equality and human rights, 10 times for reducing housing benefit, 5 times against raising benefits with inflation, 36 times for reduction in welfare, 6 times against a bankers bonus tax, and 4 times against measures to stop privatisation of the NHS.
Yeah she’s a clear thinker all right.
I would say that is relatively moderate voting record. Even to a liberal voting record. What right do you have to a extra slice of someone’s bonus. The welfare is overly generous and both discourages working. While also devaluing the worth of other’s labor by causing unnecessary inflation. What right do you have to say do not hunt foxes? If you were a man who grew up on a working farm you would know the damn things are pests. This in addition to it is the farmers land not yours they payed the taxes on it. Human rights? Universal jurisdiction… Read more »
Foxes are a pest. Is exercise and practising horsemanship any worse than shooting practice and laying down poison? I take the point that it can bring out the worst in some people. The best solution is the way the French hunt boars. Go to Mass, hunt and eat what you kill…say grace and give thanks for your food. The hunter bows down to the prey because although he is stronger he understands he is dependent on the prey. The American native Indians understand this better than we modern folks. Not getting into a debate on the NHS- wrong forum. That… Read more »
Lads I’m going to the pub to watch the national, I didn’t want to start a debate about fox hunting Ffs ?
I was trying to say, a lot of people would think the morally right thing to do was vote the other way on those subjects, I’m aware not everyone would.
Hi SoleSurvivor PM didn’t put it to parliament because she did not need to. Military action is a royal prerogative not a parliamentary one – I am more than happy to point people to the variety of websites that state this. I have my views on the PM, they are closer to yours than you may believe (my other posts should show this quite clearly) but the PM, on advice from ministers and crown servants has decided that the need to uphold international law should, every now and again be enforced. Hope the national was good, its final score for… Read more »
Hi Lee I know she didn’t need to, but I know she didn’t put it to Parliament because she would lose. Ask yourself this, if Trump and Macron asked for assistance for a ground invasion would T May take it to Parliament, damn right she would, and every single PM in the future would as well. That ship has sailed, Tony Blair set the precedent in 2003 and it’s been followed every time military action has come up. Blair was the first, but it was the right thing to do and everyone agreed. Times change, this isn’t like back in… Read more »
(Chris H) SoleSurvivor – Well thanks for totally misrepresenting what I have said and projecting a false conclusion to justify your confirmation bias.
I would normally discuss disagreements with people but with you I really can not be bloody arsed ….
Chris I don’t think I have, I wouldn’t of commented but I’ve followed this closely the last few days and you have been one that has been totally against any action. But now because T May has done it you back her, that along with every single mention of T May on this forum over the last few months has been gushing with praise, its like you’re actively promoting her. Now that’s absolutely fine, if you want to do that then that’s up to you, but now most people will know that any opinion you ever give on the government… Read more »
The legal case being presented by the UK for military action.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43770102
Seconded.
It appears that all munitions used were of the long range variety to avoid Russian ground based air defence sites.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/14/politics/syria-airstrikes-weapons-used-intl/index.html
I do look forward to the day when T26 gives us additional options for cruise missile launches. I admit to some degree of sibling envy that France was able to launch from both aircraft and frigates whereas we were aircraft only. (France and the U.K. are allies, as in “brothers in arms”, hence the reference to “sibling envy”). Both France and U.K. could also have launched cruise missiles from subs had they wished so we are equal on that score. As Gunbuster pointed out above, weapons launched were only the visible part of the contributions each country made last night.… Read more »
Best couple million dollars we have dropped in awhile. Made for a fun news night.
Interesting to hear the Turkish Foreign Ministry describe the overnight strikes as an “appropriate response”. You could write a thesis on the changing dynamics of Turkish-Russian relations over the course of the Syrian civil war, another aspect of this breathtakingly complex conflict
They back the opposite sides. They tolerate each other while fighting a proxy war.
I mean the depth of cooperation and deepening relations in the face of conflicting (and at times changing) positions on the human catastrophe next door, not to mention that fighter that got downed. It’s been quite something to watch unfold
I’m not hearing Jeremy Corbyn or anyone else criticising Turkey for illegally invading Syria.
Because Turkey wants the civil war to continue. Status quo relatively unchanged. This level of strike essentially gives them that. What they do not want is for a full intervention that would likely wipe out their proxies.
Yes, it is a very complex political situtation, with nothing which can be taken at face value.
Very true.
But then again that is every conflict.
Good afternoon all What an interesting 24 hrs for the wider world and the press, for U.K. military operations in the Eastern Med and Syria, apart from a change in deployed weapon system just another day supporting Op Shader. The bigger impact is always going to be the politics but from a military point of view what you are seeing are well planned operations being put into effect to reduce the enemies (in this case the Syrian military complex) ability to make weapons of mass destruction that they can use on there own people. The fact that this could be… Read more »
Well said.
Many thanks
Does this count as Op Shader? That is against ISIS rather than Syrian regime. Same resources, different enemy. I can’t see op Shader continuing against ISIS in same way now
Tornadoes carried two Storm Shadows each and counter measures pods (probably BOZ?). Rafales carried a single SCALP. The interesting thing is that Aquitaine fired a number of SCALP Navale from Sylver 70 VLS. Shame RN can’t do the same other than from submarines. Hopefully T26 will redress that. It would give us so much more flexibility and greater load-out… I’m guessing B-1s carried JASSMs. A USN destroyer or cruiser also fired Tomahawk. I suspect the majority of the missiles fired came from B-1s. This strike was obviously coordinated with the Russians to make sure ‘mistakes’ were not made although the… Read more »
Yeah, exactly the comment I made further up about my friends envy (we are allies after all) that the French had the extra option of frigate-launched missiles. It also helps lessen the issue that Lee mentioned above about the FAF being able to sustain air operations. I 100% agree with you that I long for the day when T26 should, assuming we make sensible missile choices, give us an additional potential launch platform for cruise missiles. If a suitable ship is in the vicinity anyway then is a ship-launched cruise missile more cost-effective than an air-launched one? I imagine that… Read more »
Julian, the attractiveness of a frigate based capability is that the ship can loiter off the coast in international waters, available at short notice if and when the need arises. So does a submarine, but my view is that the greater the number of options the greater flexibility the country has. Aircraft will not always be available. They depend on nearby friendly air bases and usually the availability of air refuelling tankers. To my knowledge, there are no plans to integrate Storm Shadow on F-35 and therefore no means of launching such a strike from a Queen. This could change… Read more »
Spear 3/4/5 is the future for F-35s. Swarm attack with cheap(er) missiles is better than a single super dooper £5m missile. Akrotiri is a handy piece of sovereign UK territory. I’m sure there was far more activity than the 4 Tornadoes/ Eurofighters delivering Storm Shadows. ELINT must have been interesting and JSSU must have earned their pay. I don’t know what UAVs were in the air, but I’d be surprised if a few weren’t up watching the various responses. Not to mention E-3s, E-8s, P-8s, Sentinel and the whole sheebang of ISTAR assets. This was ringing the fire alarm in… Read more »
I have Sky News on right now showing breaking news on a briefing by a US I assume general. He just ran through the weapons and platforms and there are some corrections as well as confirmations on what we have been discussing here… The U.K. – Not 4 Tornados, apparently a mix of Tornado and Typhoon. Total of 8 SS fired France – A mixture of a mirage and Rafale. Total of 9 SCALP fired from the air plus 3 from a frigate. The US – Too much to remember but what I can remember is 1 Tico and 2… Read more »
OK, he’s just answering questions and commented that the B1s were accompanied by fighters up to launch point. He then went on to say that the French and British did the same so I guess at least for the U.K. the mix of Typhoon plus Tornado might have been all Tornado launch platform with Typhoon as the fighter escort. Probably the same for the French. The general also reconfirmed US JASSM use twice in the last 2 minutes.
Cheers for an interesting update Julian.
The 4 Typhoons were purely there for air defence. The 4 Tornados carried the 8 Sky shadows.
I object to those against regime change being labelled as Russian trolls. If the intervention is limited to bombing chemical weapons sites, then fine. My fear is that this may escalate into full-blown regime change, especially since John Bolton is in the White House. Now I am by no means a pacifist, I think we must intervene to stop the genocide of White Afrikaans farmers in South Africa. However, given the demographic situation of native Europeans in Western Europe and the massive deluge of non-Western migrants into Europe, and eyewatering financial burden, not to mention crime and terrorism, and the… Read more »
Bravo. Yes Libya was a disaster on that front.
Hi The Govt have been quite clear on this, this (from the UK point of view anyway) has got nothing to do with regime change. This is all to do with the enforcement of Ban of use of Chemical weapons – something that the Assad regime has been, according to the UN, doing multiple times. A line has to be drawn somewhere – it is being drawn now. We tried to draw that line in 2013 (Obama’s notorious red lines) but those lines were crossed and no action was taken. I would also just like to remind everyone on the… Read more »
More from our side of the pond. Apologies if it’s been posted before. Good work all around!
https://news.usni.org/2018/04/13/breaking-u-s-cruiser-destroyer-uss-donald-cook-launch-strikes-syria
Cheers!
Afternoon TH
Always a pleasure to hear your musing on world events and there relation to money.
I think you will find this has more to do with the breaking of international law (use of chemical weapons) than being the lap dog of the USA.
But then, you don’t seem to be keen on facts – keep blogging though, doesn’t cost a penny
So…where will we will we find the actual number of intercepted cruise missiles? Do we just half what Russia claimed?
More worrying…. what defences does the UK have again Russian cruise missiles?
The word NONE springs to mind.
Afternoon Dennis All targets were hit and the mission, after analysis was deemed a success. Any cruise missile that was either shot down, intercepted or suffered mechanical failure will have been reporting telemetry information right up until the point were it either hit its target or the link was lost. All of this information, will be used to make the weapon system better, more robust, less susceptible to intercept or malfunction. I would suggest we take any claim of interceptions at face value. Last night 3 nations launched roughly 120 missiles in a short window against just 3 targets. Even… Read more »
The Russian military has admittedly gotten the largest bump since the days of the CCCP over the last few years, however. they simply do NOT have the capability to fight the protracted conventional war that would result from a cruise missile attack on a NATO country. Period. They can rattle their rusty nuclear sabre all they like and cause localized mischief in the Ukraine and Syria but at the end of the days “sound and fury signifying nothing”. If I were to pick the greatest threat the Russians pose at the moment and in the future, it’s their cyberwarfare capability.… Read more »
Bingo – Well said
Good news – This strike lays affirms the west’s red line in respect of chemical weapons. The Germans and Italians have issued supporting statements. The Russians acquiesced by virtue of agreeing not to interfere. One small step for civilised behaviour. Oh and the Russians have agreed to let the US defeat Isil in the north and east of Syria. They agree on something. Bad news – Overall the winners in Syria still look like being Assad who is beating the opposition, Russia which keeps its air and sea bases and Turkey who have been given carte blanche to invade Syria… Read more »
Its really high time so GR4s are granted a reprieve past next year.
We still have no airborne anti-ship capability and the Typhoon is still working up its strike capabilities.
Hi Geoff I think Ben(P) has said it best, time to move on. I am a big supporter of the Tonka, it has done sterling service but the frames are tired, we do not want to run them beyond their hours (Nimrod is a sad testament to that) and a graceful retirement, freeing up much needed crews and maintenance engineers to the Typhoon fleet can only be a good thing. I am concerned like you that we still have gaps in the weapon systems required to fulfil all the roles we would like but don’t be too despondent, we are… Read more »
Hi All
I think I read every post here from political trolls, armchair generals and wannabee military experts and point out that the only people who know what went on, what asset capabilities are are the people who can’t ever talk about it.
Hi Phil
You are correct in your assessment – democracy though allows us freedom of speech and expression of opinion.
This website allows that, from the political trolls to armchair generals and wannabe military experts – we are all here – moaning, summarising, theorising and building dream armies.
Wouldn’t want to live anywhere else 🙂
Hear Hear! 😀
Cheers.
Well said fella. The joy of freedom of speech eh! Personally I thought the response was necessary…..chemical weapons are a line in the sand to which we have to respond, once crossed.
You’re quite right. We can’t give away military intelligence that our leaders have used to make these decisions, that would be criminally irresponable, though the Bush/Blair Iraqi WMD fiasco hasn’t helped anyone.
Hi Phil, I hope you enjoyed your poached eggs on toast, but really, leaving the empty plate lying around on that glass-top table in front of the TV! At least let your two golden retrievers lick the plate clean!
And?
Better close the site down then. We will only move elsewhere leaving the handful of ex military here who maybe are allowed to theorise and discuss their knowledge as they may actually know what they are talking about!
Blimey.
Does this mean Operation Shader is over? Paveways and Brimstone back on Tornado from Monday morning? Can’t believe it will be business as usual
As has been pointed out, if there is more to come it will be when the Truman CSG (it’s actually almost a real CBG numbers wise) arrives in area IMHO. Lets see what the Russians plan to do to retaliate after all their sabre rattling. Symbolic or not I believe they can be expected to do something…
Cheers!
Cheers!
Yes Putin has the choice now of losing face dramatically, or at the very least making a token attack on our forces in the region. There’s Israel on the doorstep to kick at also.
I’m thinking they will involve their proxies in either the Middle East or the Baltic regions or a cyber strike of some type against US/UK/French interests. “Plausible deniability”…
Cheers!
Another view:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-vs-america-what-would-naval-clash-over-syria-look-25378
Cheers.
Should the Syrians be bold and stupid enough to do a counter strike, with a few of their much protected Su-24’s. What are the Missile defences at the RAF base Akrotiri, British Army maned Rapier missile systems? I understand there are also some RAF Typhoons based there for Air Defence no doubt.
None usually. 16 Regiment RA maintain a battery on rotation at MPA in the Falklands but not Cyprus.
I guess they could deploy there if needed.
Evening all.
Given the French launched cruise missiles from one of their frigates, do you thinking this will give more impetus to adding Mk41 VLS to the Type 45s? I read before that the money for that is now being used to fix the propulsion problems but the flexibility offered if they were fitted is obvious.
Maybe last night changes the optics within HMG and the money can be found to add them whilst each is in for engine refit.
Thoughts?
Fingers crossed it comes up in Defence Review.
Hi David
It all depends on how the RN want to utilise their platforms to deploy strategic weapons.
Currently they do that by using submarines, a role the silent service protect ferociously.
Gunbuster is a lot better positioned to give an articulate answer so I will defer to him – but happy to give an opinion
Hi Lee.
My only concern is we have precious few attack boats that could be made available at any one time. Adding the capability to the Type 45s gives commanders – and politicians for that matter – more options if needed. I really hope the events of last night don’t get lost. Fingers crossed!!
David, I’d rather see the money spent on giving T-45 additional Sylvers and an anti-ballistic missile capability. But the T-26 should most definitely have a TLAM option.
It’s money most wonderfully well spent!
I do hope the Government considers the ongoing requirement for a far bigger inventory of missiles for UK forces and the need for a missile air defence system for the UK and key bases globally. I do wonder what would happen if a reciprocal attack on Cypress happened whether we can defend it.
Europe has to stop relying on the US for its stores, we need to have our own and now is the time for the US to mandate a 3% spending commitment for membership of NATO and see what happens from there.
Hi Pacman27
Inventory of weapons is a challenge the MOD is well aware of, however we have not helped ourselves by picking multiple methods (Aster, Mk41 etc) to launch them.
Cyprus – don’t worry, geopolitically with Greece, Turkey and us (and Russian money laundering) Cyprus is going to be just fine.
3% – to much.
Just a thought, why did we need to launch over 100 cruise missiles against only 3 targets? I would have thought only a small number at each one unless they were huge sites.
Ensures enough get through.
Saturates defences.
Maybe the sites were hardened.
Explosive potential of a single missile maybe not sufficient.
Just a few ideas. Anyone?
Sending the message, if you want to put a defensive screen up and deploy the S-400 system on night 1 I can deploy 120 missiles, on night 2 I can deploy 120 missiles on night 3 I can deploy 120 missiles. On night 4 the US 6th fleet will be in place and I will deploy 120 missiles. On night 5 I will have assets in place where I can deploy 120 missiles, to achieve the aim I will deploy what I need to make sure that you fully understand I will prevail. Gen Dunford is a Marine, we make… Read more »
Judging by the state of the targets on the news I think they got the message….
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/putin-strikes-back-pentagon-says-12363365
Russia up to their usual tricks again. That’s if the Mirror can be trusted lol
Useful idiots
Smile and wave, smile and wave ?
Well they’re certainly infesting this site now.
Seems to be a glitch in the Kremlinbot sofware, the Herald was targetted by a French language one. Probably made a mistake about the Auld Alliance and thought Gaelic was Gallic.
That’s quite funny.
Wonder when the English will bomb North Korea? Mmmm lmao
Getting late
But Sec Mattis and Gen Dunford briefing with a USN Vice Adm and….I recognise those wings – they are not American
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/04/14/22/4B23726D00000578-5616453-Defense_Secretary_Jim_Mattis_right_and_Chairman_of_the_Joint_Chi-a-55_1523740781284.jpg
Morning Lee.
Hmm interesting photo. I’d guess an RAF Air Commodore or AVM attached to US Central Command, and are those RAF Regiment Parachute Wings? Maybe ex 2 Squadron.
Morning
They are standard wings as issued to anyone from the RAF who has passed their parachute course.
Ah cheers.
I find it too much of a coincidence that as soon as the Russian embassies released their counter propaganda, that commissar Corbyn released his letter to the PM saying the attack was illegal and that there was no UN authority. Of course there was no authority from the UN Security Council as Russia vetoed the vote.
However, there is a UN charter stating that chemical weapons cannot be produced or used. What’s the point of a charter if nobody upholds it. I was wondering if Syria, Iran or Russia have signed the charter?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Chemical_Weapons_Convention
Israel has signed but not ratified
The following states are eligible to become parties to the Convention, but have not acceded to it: Egypt, North Korea, Palestine, South Sudan
Everyone else has signed and ratified.
Corbyn asked if it was legal hours or less after the attack. He was informed the night before by May. So no coincidence, no connection at all.
The age of the GR4 is totally irrelevant just like the MOD’s justification for binning the OCEAN. Perfectly capable and suitable platforms for delivering the weapons we have just seen at no peril to the aircraft or crew. Keep them on until we have a fully up to speed Typhoon force with an appropriate increase in ACTIVE squadrons.
So, in order to keep our aircraft out of harm’s way, we opt to employ the stand of approach using a cruise missile. As the Typhoon has clear advantages over the F35B and vise versa, would it not make sense to include it onboard our QE carriers as well as the F35B? Quote. 21st February 2011 Naval Typhoon unveiled. At Aero India 2011 Eurofighter and partner company BAE Systems unveiled for the first time more details about the studies carried out for the initial definition of the navalised version of the Typhoon. The most important element of the navalised Typhoon… Read more »
We probably should have gone down this road decades ago.
Not a cat in hells chance it will happen now. If it has not flown yet will takes years knowing our faffing about to realise it and by then F35B will be in service.
Nigel, not a chance! When I still worked for Airbus (I am retired now) I was part of a group who visited the MOD Main Building to put forward at a senior meeting the idea of a navalised Typhoon with all the advantages you describe. The idea got as far as the second cup of coffee I seem to remember. It got shot down as an attempt to keep the Typhoon “marching army” of 6000 engineers across Europe marching… The MOD had of course by then invested a lot of money, time and effort on F-35/BAE Systems and weren’t about… Read more »
Yes, Thrust vectoring was available from 2010 onwards. As Russian missile technology catches up with the advantages of stealth technology and we continue to be drip fed our quota of F35’s, I would of thought reducing our original quota of 138 aircraft to the amount required to cover our carrier wings while using the Typhoon as a mixed onboard package. Potentially, this would be a very useful stop gap filler creating an opportunity to move ahead of the curve by 2030 if we Invest “NOW” in a 6th generation fighter/bomber. The EJ 2×0 is already being considered for installation onboard… Read more »
This country has plenty of money. PC and EU obsessed government chose to spend it elsewhere. I have no problem with the “Brexit Bill” as that is an obligation we signed up for and as we already pay 13-14 billion odd per year for membership in reality is it any different? Just a few years more. The Oversees aid budget should be reduced IMO. While I understand and support the benefits of “Soft Power” when our own public services are falling apart and the armed forces constantly starved of money ( HMG’s own policy ) then charity indeed should begin… Read more »
I also both support the benefits of soft power, the morality doing something to help others, and the reduction of the aid budget. Firstly, reducing the aid budget is not the same as stopping it completely so my conscience can live with that. Secondly, if only a few of the many reports we have read in the news over the last few years are true then this arbitrary 0.7% figure that has to be met has resulted in a proportion of our aid budget being spent very badly as money is thrown at very dubious projects in order to meet… Read more »
I hope this is the sort of off-topic spamming across multiple article’s comments section that will be tolerated here…
I just came across this by accident so, in case others haven’t seen this, the first of the BBC’s 3-part documentary on the new HMS Queen Elizabeth carrier is airing tonight at 20:00 (8:00pm) UK time on BBC Two. Further details here…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2018/16/britains-biggest-warship
Depends who’s spamming it, as its you….:-)
Ooo will just be home from work by then. Rubs hands….
I hope it will be a proper documentary on the carrier and not descend into the liberal hand wringing on whether the UK needs it and so on.
No, it’ll concentrate mainly on the galley, mess deck, cabins and Charlie from Durham and Jane from Plymouth. It’ll talk a lot about football pitches, London double decker buses and Nelson’s column. It’ll say sod all about the weapon system’s capability or it’s significance for UK defence… But it’s better than nothing!
Don’t forget the £66 billion cost per carrier and she nearly sank from a leak.
Ah yes! How could I forget!
This is my fear….
(Chris H) Having seen a couple of trailers I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised. A snippet in this Tweet:
https://twitter.com/HMSQnlz/status/984689959838928896
But bear in mind it is on terrestrial TV and will be aimed at a very wide public and not just military enthusiasts so I suspect a few busses will be mentioned. No big deal.
As long as it paints the RN in a positive light. Good recruitment advert?
I’m sure they will state the size of the carrier’s deck in terms of number of football pitches. in case there are others like me who don’t follow football I just worked out the size of the QEC’s deck in that other commonly used U.K. unit for measuring area.
The deck of a QE class carrier is 1/105,697th the size of Wales.
You’re welcome.
Fucking brilliant! Yes, Nelson’s column and football pitches got mentioned and the galley and mess decks, but it was far better than I had expected. In fact I don’t mind admitting there were moments when I had a tear in my eye. Quite emotional in places…
(Chris H) I thought the field gun competition summed it all up well. Welding a team together from a bunch od people who have never seen each other before and bloody won it! And don’t tell me pride doesn’t matter when a big old engineering CPO was brought to tears.
I thought it was an excellent programme and was ‘warts and all’ lets be fair. And to think PoW is now where QE was when this programme started.
I thought it was good as well, all the “it’s as tall as Nelson’s Column” stuff at the beginning was no more than was necessary to set the scale for viewers who haven’t been following the ship as avidly as most of us here. I was never that bothered about inane commentary, at worst I figured that I could watch it with the sound muted and still see lots of nice high quality footage of the inside of the ship. I’m glad they got to sea by the end of the first episode, I was a bit worried that they… Read more »
Nigel, not sure how a typhoon would land safely. Traps would have to be fitted even if no cats?
Yes, CATOBAR, conventional take off but arrested return. The Qs are all electric ships. No steam. Not enough power on board for EMALS. So Typhoon would have been perfect, a la Russia, India, China, but with a really almighty aircraft.
Richard,
Purley from a novicies perspective, would the combination of a speed brake similar to that found on the tail of the space shuttle and thrust vectoring be sufficient to slow the aircraft down without the need for an arrested return?
I’ve often wondered.
It would have been enough without traps however circumstances would have to be perfect. The weather would have to be clear. The carrier would have to turn as the wind dictated. While the aircraft would either have to have no payload or drop it beforehand. So in the end unsafe without catching the wires.
Thank you Elliott!
(Chris H) Sceptical Richard – It is called ‘STOBAR’. the ‘Traps’ required are not technically advanced (as long as you keep away from AAG) and could be fitted in a refit. Indeed the QE / PoW are passively engineered for later CATOBAR. The issue (as I understand it) is that after the French left the Typhoon programme (as they always leave every shared project when they have what they need) the remaining partners saw no need for a Naval Typhoon (dim to say the least) and the airframe was not designed with a ‘hook’ which requires major fuselage strengthening (and… Read more »
Gosh Chris, you’re absolutely right! How stupid of me! I meant STOBAR (short take off but arrested return) not CATOBAR (catapult assisted take off assisted return). As I said, stupid of me. Thanks for pointing it out. At Airbus we had looked at the issues around the hook, landing gear, corrosion, nav interfaces between carrier and aircraft, etc. Yes there is a penalty, but it still would have been a superb aircraft. I have not noticed the flexibility in the B’s undercarriage, but I guess it’s something they must be aware of if they are working up towards SRVL on… Read more »
Happy Sunday!
Interesting piece here.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-14/warship-ruse-and-new-stealth-missiles-how-they-attacked-syria
Cheers!
Thank you Richard & Chris for your feedback. I wonder how long it would take to fit the AR onboard HMS Prince of Wales? Yes, It would delay the entry time into service, but as we are planning to install it on both carriers at some point in the future, why not do it now given the increased threat level from a return to cold war status? According to NATO that is! The best way to deter any potential aggressor is to show we have the means to stand up to them by using the best that British industry has… Read more »