RFA Mounts Bay delivers aid to The Bahamas after hurricane

Good point. And the excellent sensor capabilities (radar, electro-optical turret, ability to archive sensor data for potential future court evidence) would have been extremely valuable in that role as well.

Your point notwithstanding, that temporary hangar wouldn’t have allowed a Bay to fully host (as in maintain) something the size of a Merlin anyway would it?

There was a chorus of approval on these pages to a lament that the Bays and Albions were not fitted with a decent hanger during construction…steel being cheap and a bit of plumbing added. Makes you wonder sometimes!

Think it can take a Merlin, for how long I don’t know but assume they’re all tied up at the moment with westlant and other deployments anyway

Merlin’s and too scarce and expensive for disaster relief.

Thanks John. On the off chance that there is anyone with any influence within HMG or elsewhere I will not be offended if they steal my idea – provided they use it and save some lives

The nation is divided…as is parliament. If you think that these issues are going to go away after a general election, I fear that you are wrong! If you are suggesting some sort of civil disobedience …. I doubt it….too many bar-stool warriors!

True the nation is divided on Brexit hence the reason Parliament passed to buck and put it in the hands of their bosses the people. If the people had said NO and Parliament had triggered article 50 there would have been hell to pay. This is about democracy and whether the people are happy to let parliament do as it wants or whether to people expect Parliament to do as per the democratic decision. No point in referendums unless you abide by the decision – certainly will be important for the Scots should the day ever come again!
Not about civil disobedience its about people spotting who is blocking democracy and who is supporting democracy regardless of their position on Brexit.

And once..as you say…those that are blocking democracy have been spotted… then what? Would you like to tell us and GCHQ?

Oh that’s simple. They will be spotted by those on bar stools who might just over time change the conversation. Parliamentarians will sense the change and democracy will take its course. That is the strength of democracy and why it is and always has been worth fighting for.

Yes Mark…but how are they going to change the conversation…you mean, threaten violence do you?

The only way of changing a conversation is by engaging in conversation. To threaten or use violence in such circumstances shows the weakness of your argument. The conversation in this case accepts everyone’s position on Brexit but moves on under the spotlight of what is happening within the arguments between the different organs of the state to implement (or not) the referendum and seek guidance (or not) from the people. Referendums are relatively new in this country and this is the first to create such a rift. It is only natural that the constitution adjusts itself to accommodate these new circumstances (if necessary) but after much discussion and conversation I expect. So for the sake of clarity – under no circumstances violence – threatened or otherwise!!! It is the sign of a healthy democracy when it institutions are scrutinised by the people to ensure they meet current needs – don’t you agree?

I agree with you. Discussion needs to be the tool. However there is non of that happening. I also think we need to have laws in place that prevent politicians from knowingly and obviously lying, especially in cases that affect votes. Surely that is an affront to democracy? Our elected officials should be honest and transparent and the only situation where there should be leeway on that is for national security reasons and even then they should not be free to lie about whatever they want. I would also like to see them being forced to behave professionally in parliament. I mean if I behaved like them in my workplace, it would not be my workplace for very long. Shouting, name calling, slanderous comments… it is ludicrous to see and even my young children behave more maturely! These are the people at the top of our country and they behave like a bunch of chavs!

The need for dialogue is the reason I think we need a new referendum and actually talk about the issues rather than vote on feelings etc. The public should be told exactly how the EU works and should be walked through all the issues and all the benefits of both sides. No lies, just facts. Boris would struggle with that but I am sure he could manage it if he really tried.

I agree with the broad thrust of your argument. Following your arguments to their logical conclusion though we need to sort the fact from the fiction. We also need to accept that somehow we need to try to show the full picture. For example the issue of the £350 million in my opinion could not have been resolved with the actual figure for a particular period – you need to also explain what the country is getting for their money. If that is not shown then £350,000 a week would still seem like a lot of money to many and might get the same uninformed result.
I think it is logical for people to think how a fair method of making such decisions could be set up regardless which side of the argument you are on. Only once that is agreed could we proceed with confidence to future referendums on any subject.

The referendum was widely advertised as an indicative non binding vote. So we all voted knowing that parliament were not obliged to follow the result. The fact that the leave vote was widely based on lies and mistruths adds to the issue as did the fact that it was a very close result. It is a complex mess that could have been mitigated by simply following the precedent set in the vote to join the EU in the first place and making the vote a minimum majority of 60%. That way if they got the 60% then it would have been a much clearer victory and would have been much easier to get through. There are many issues not limited to the fact that our younger population that has to actually deal with the problems caused by leaving the EU feel that the baby boomers have voted them out and that as they are retiring or already retired and as they own most of the housing stock etc that they don’t care about any consequences because it will not affect them. There is a lot of bitterness on both sides. My father voted to leave and I will never forgive him for doing so, He has shown no care at all for my future or that of my children and he voted entirely on things he had completely false impressions on. Basically he does not want people with brown skin coming to our country (something that is obviously racist and also something that has been in our control regardless of the EU) and he does not like that we gave away our vetoes (again something that is not true) and he also thinks the structure of the EU is not democratic as the commission is not elected yet has all the power (also not true). He is also now convinced that the EU prevents our kippers from being sold (again untrue). So you can understand why some people think the leavers need protecting from themselves just like our children do. I mean when your child thinks it is a good idea to jump off the top of a climbing frame they have had a vote in their head and won it with a 100% majority but you as their parent would rule against their stupidity…

The other major problem is that we know know a lot more about the consequences than we did in the run up to the vote. For instance I am not aware that the Irish border was ever brought up by either side as a problem. There are also many other issues that have cropped up since the vote that means we should probably rethink the whole thing. It is a bit like agreeing to buy a house and then the survey shows up loads of major problems that you were not ware of and could lead to it falling down, but you still buy it anyway out of stubbornness.

“The referendum was widely advertised as an indicative non binding vote.”

No it was not.

See HMG propoganda leaflet telling us all the disasters if the UK dared vote leave.
See Blair. Major. Khan. Cameron and just about every remain orientated politician going saying this is once in a lifetime, no going back, etc.

PM “We will do what YOU decide”

Sorry but in my world of English that says what it says on the Tin”

Regards.

Whether you were paying attention or not is irrelevant. It was fully known that it was not legally binding as no referendums in the UK are legally binding. They are there to gauge public opinion. Parliament remains sovereign with regard to referendums. As the vote was pretty much 50/50 I can understand why parliament is acting to protect the UK from itself given that they do not have to abide by the result. Especially given that MPs are often more clued up on the issues around these things than the general public are.

Lol!

It was not fully known, as even politicians advertised it as such.

And even if it was fully known it would not have changed the result.

And of course if the vote had been remain Parliament would all now be solemnly expecting the vote to be respected. Priceless!

I’m looking forward to IndyRef 2! It is only advisory so even if a majority of a vote choose it lets just ignore it! The UK is safe and well then and goodness knows why SO many politicians are using the threat of Scots Independence as a weapon AGAINST Brexit. Hmmmm!

I feel so much better and thank you for trivializing decades of experience that made people vote the way they did.

Hysterical. Really.

I’ve just now, for the first time, fully read your post further above too. All the usual cliches…”brown Skin” ” leave based on lies” OMG. Despite years of people like Chris H fully debunking this nonsense you still come back for more of the same.

A wish to be an independent nation is not based on lies. Neither is a wish for end to free movement. Ask the SNP.

All the usual boring old chestnuts.

I was not going to reply with the posts such as Airborne below wanting to keep on topic, but decided I would as it seems UKDJ is turning into a Remainer Parliament where leavers rarely post any more, leaving Remoaners a free ride.

Cannot have that can we?

Daniele it was widely advertised as binding but it wasn’t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Referendum_Act_2015
There is (and has been) a lot of rubbish talked on both sides of the argument and perhaps looking forward we need some form of impartial agency to state the facts and highlight the fiction. It doesn’t unfortunately resolve the issue of opinion which allowed many an institution (for and against) to gaze into their crystal balls and present wishful thinking as fact

Hi Guys…this debate sent me looking for the government pamphlet entitled ‘Why the Government believes that voting remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK’. I found it!
The only reference to its binding nature is under the last section entitled ‘A once in a generation decision’. It says ‘This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide’. Whether the Government had a right to promise that, given the historical advisory status of referenda, is another matter!

To be fair to Cameron Government they could have done just that in 2016. It was in the days when the Government controlled the parliamentary agenda and negotiated treaties. How things have changed.

Yes, and it also raises the question that it was Cameron’s government that promised it and didn’t deliver. Given that we are now on the 3rd Conservative regime, I hardly think that the promise still applies!

Stop it, stop it, stop it, you know you get all breathless when discussing politics!!!!! Stick to the military subject, as with all due respect, you know what you talk about and, surprising as it may seem, on the military topic you and I think alike. Cheers.

Sorry Airborne my fault really. Whilst the discussion does not normally stray into politics I personally have noted that if politics in this country is turned on its head in the next weeks and months that could well have long reaching consequences for the chain of command, militarily funding etc. The political element in a democracy might be irritating but it does affect us all.