Russia has likely lost the aircraft due to “Ukrainian man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS)”, Britain’s Ministry of Defence has said.

In a Defence Intelligence update, the Ministry iof Defence said that there have “been at least 23 verified losses of Russia’s Ka-52 HOKUM attack helicopter in Ukraine since the invasion”.

“There have been at least 23 verified losses of Russia’s Ka-52 HOKUM attack helicopter in Ukraine since the invasion. This represents over 25% of the Russian Air Force’s in-service fleet of 90 Ka-52s, and nearly half of Russia’s total helicopter losses in Ukraine. Russian attack helicopters have likely suffered particular attrition from Ukrainian man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS), while the helicopters frequently operate with less consistent top-cover from combat jets than they would expect under Russian military doctrine.

Russia is still failing to maintain adequate air superiority in order to reliably carry out effective fixed wing close air support near the front line, and its artillery ammunition is running low. Russian commanders are likely increasingly resorting to conducting high-risk attack helicopter missions as one of the few options available to provide close support for troops in combat.”

Oryx, a website documenting equipment losses, has photo and video evidence of 54 Russian helicopters lost in Ukraine, 53 of which were destroyed, with one captured by Ukrainian troops.

Oryx confirms that 23 of these helicopters were Ka-52s.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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164 COMMENTS

  1. It’s even better. Thanks to western sanctions production of all combat air systems has ground to a halt. The best example i’ve found is that they have put the T62 MBT back into production because it doesn’t contain any western tech. The Russian military is to all intents and purposes a third world military now.

      • The West should be taking advantage of the degraded state of Russia’s tank inventory and start supplying Ukraine with in-storage Western tanks to increase the mismatch in capability between the two countries. Germany has been dithering over sending Leopards; surely we can source some Challenger 1s or Leclercs for example. Although the US has plenty of M1s in storage I believe they run on a turbofan engine rather than a diesel which complicates the logistics chain. Still, doable though. We have every incentive to try and bring this war to a Ukranian victory ASAP as the more drawn out it is the more economic damage is done, more likely that it will overlap with any Chinese attempts on Taiwan, etc etc.

        • With new tanks comes a whole new logistics train. They use different ammo, every single part is new to Ukraine and spares would be needed.
          While not impossible it’s a big effort. The Abrams wouldn’t bring any more problems than any other western tank. What Ukraine has shown is that how you use your armour is important. With Russia constantly supplying Ukraine with vehicles it’s been a big scoop for them.
          The main issue for Ukraine is how do you push out a force in defensive positions without taking massive casualties yourself. How they are doing it now seems to be working well. It will take time. The winter is going to hit the Russians in Ukraine very hard. Much harder than it will effect the Ukrainians.
          As for Taiwan I don’t think anything will put China off. As well as Taiwan is an island resupply would be a massive issue. They really need enough kit on the island to put China off. Nukes may be the only thing that would hopefully keep China away.

          • Nukes won’t matter to China. Their mindset is you can kill 20-30 million, we have 1 billion plus anyway. The move by Xi last week to turn the clock back and rid the princelings of the young faction leaves a straight fight with his and the Jiang faction. Xi only sees a strong China as the answer. He and his faction are the sons of the former gang of originals who ran the country after the death of Mao. The public removal of a moderate and person who wants to bring the “errant island” back into the one China fold does not bode well. Premier Li Keqiang’s removal from the standing committee was the last piece of opposition against a forced standoff with Taiwan. Li was the last block to Xi’s personal domination of the Military and it’s huge industrial base.

            I studied Chinese politics in University and worked on that side in the forces. Fantastic country, great people, but politics of robots.

          • There is a rumour going around that China might take advantage of Russia being depleted by Ukraine. China would use its forces to take back parts of Siberia that Russia took off them in the 1850s/60s.

          • That used to be the case. Not anymore! China is – by far – the world’s fastest ageing population. It’s really incredible what’s going on over there

        • Apparently the biggest supplier of tanks to Ukraine since the war began is Russia. They’ve captured so many they now have more tanks than when the war began.

          • “Apparently the biggest supplier of tanks to Ukraine since the war began is Russia. ”

            Yes, I heard that too. One observation is that the average age of Ukrainian tanks is decreasing as they capture newer Russian models than their own whilst the average age of Russian tanks is increasing as they are struggling to produce newer models in the numbers needed. Hence refurbed T62s now appearing on the battlefield.

            As for ammo, I thought Chally 1s just used standard 120mm NATO rounds? I think we face similar challenges in any case in sourcing enough Russian standard ammo for all the tanks the Ukrainians have captured??

          • You are correct in that 120mm is the standard NATO Tank Round calibre – only trouble is ours (UK) are Rifled Bores while the rest use Smoothbore,this anomaly will be fixed when the C3 comes into service.

          • Chally 1 uses the same 2-part rounds as Chally 2. BAe still make the Charm APFSDS rounds, whilst the HESH is bought from a manufacturer in Belgium.

            The standard NATO 120mm round is the 1-piece round designed for the Rheinmetall 120 L44 gun. That is under licenced production in Italy, Spain, Turkey and the US.

          • I’d seen that statistical analysis as well. Latest advances have added 2-3 brigades of armoured equipment to the Ukrainian army- great stuff.

        • I doubt we would have the ammo to spare for Challenger, at least until they get new machines built to make the ammo. As I understand it the old machines were scrapped some years ago.

        • M1 Abrahms is a gas guzzler. Uses a gas turbine and has shocking fuel economy. Only the US army can supply enough fuel to keep the beasts running.
          Challenger 1. Not sure how many, if any are in storage….who knows? Agree a Chally 1 would still ruin 99.9% of all Russian tanks. Its interesting no Aramatas have been deployed to Ukraine yet. I guess Russia doesnt want to show the world how utterly crap they are.

          • Apart from the CR1 examples sold ( gifted) to Jordan ,who i believe are looking to retire them currently, there are a few kicking around the UK,some as Museum exhibits,some in private ownership even,i know of one in a very unlikely place.

          • The newest design model M1 AX just revealed is reverting back to a turbo diesel v12 engine- to stop the crazy situation of having to supply a gas turbined tank whilst 99% of all other US army vehicles are diesel powered.

        • If I recall correctly, Ukraine has factories that manufacture T-72s and other Russian-origin vehicles, so repairs are also way easier for them to perform. There’s huge industrial knowledge of these platforms, and they do reasonably well in export; changing to western tanks would potentially kill a fairly large part of Ukraine’s industry.
          If they have any sense, or are in a position to make a choice that isn’t out of desperation, I would try and negotiate an armoured vehicle deal that includes some kind of re-tooling of manufacturing plants to allow domestic production of the type. Korea may be a good bet, or Germany maybe?

          • Kharkov was one of the World/s biggest tank manufacturing towns back in the days of the SU but over the last few years it gradually crumbled with only a few production highlights for export and even some of those had steel quality issues. Corruption was a big problem. Once the fighting started it went from bad to worse as the Russians methodically destroyed or damaged all the armour repair plants it could find. In common with much of Ukraine’s industry it is difficult to see it surviving, both given the lack of capital and manpower given that much of the young man population, with any gumption, is now out of the country.

            Very sad really, it was downhill all the way from 1991 as the oligarchs extracted the wealth for their own, not the countries, ends. The comparison with Poland is pretty stark.

          • Here we go again, Ukraine bad, Russia good! But as I have previously stated, of course Russia can target infrastructure, as they are the easiest targets, they don’t fight back and do t move! And delete Ukraine insert Russia! As for most of the “young man” population, in fact they haven’t gone anywhere as they were banned from leaving when your Russian Nazis invaded! If we are talking about make populations leaving, let’s look at the 300K plus who have escaped from Russia in the last 8 weeks! Yet again a single anti Ukraine narrative directed from your handler!

          • Parts of your post, I agree with. Poland has decided where it belongs & is prepared to back its opinion more than most of NATO. If they go down, they intend to go down fighting.

            The problem for Russia is, it appears, a good many of its population don’t agree. It is Russians whose house & Grandma aren’t on the line who are bailing.

            Sad part is the West was closer under the Tsars, then now.

          • Agreed Poland is the current tip of the NATO spear, and has spent much time and money, certainly over the last 5 years sorting outs its military. This has speeded up substantially due to Putins successful efforts at unifying what was previously a weak and fragmented NATO by his woeful efforts at the invasion of Ukraine.

          • Leaving aside for a moment that most of what you’ve posted there is Kremlin derived smears and deflection, a genuine question needs to be asked of you.

            Why does a supposed English man, in Milton Keynes, in his seventies, whose parents reportedly fought against nazi Germany have such a hatred against Ukraine and its citizens? How come you find yourself sneering at anything Ukrainian, and such boastful regard for an avowedly mafia gsngster Russian state , cheerleading the rape and murder of its people, boasting about Russian advances into regions that were never theirs?? At this stage, no one on this forum believes a solitary word that you post, seeing you as one of those useful idiots whose inadequacy sees them sucking up to psychopaths and dictators. You were never in Ukraine, you know nothing about it whether economically, politically, militarily or any other field. I always note that with so many articles about the Russian war in Ukraine, it takes you 2 to 3 days to comment. Do you wait for your FSB handlers to give you the info? It’s always bullshit and deflection anyway.

            So, why the hatred?

          • You and I seem to have a different view of the meaning of the word ‘hate’. I first came across what was a civil war in 2014 on a now defunct US site MP.net and it was pretty horrific what went on. The various units of the Right Sektor, particularly Azov andTornado, were allowed to do what they wanted against the Russian speakers from sodomising captives in SBU jails to burying them alive in the graves they dug for themselves. Revulsion was the word, not hate. They did not hide these actions instead using them as a terror weapon.

            The full force of the Ukrainian Army was turned against the rapidly formed militia of the DNR and LDR who, with Russian assistance, fought them to a draw and the Minsk Agreements. I have been watching it at a detail level ever since and it has never made easy watching. Right from the start it was always the clearly stated Ukrainian objective to wipe the Russian speakers out, which was not a problem as they were inferior beings.

            If I feel anything about them it is sorrow that they had the misfortune to be selected as a proxy army to fight a militarily superior force. Notwithstanding that a few of them deserve everything they got or will get. But hate, no you got that wrong.

          • Well said, from your bunker in the basement of the Kremlin. Your handler must be very proud of you. He might even put his pistol back in its holster for a few minutes and allow you to take a break, maybe get some food and drink and go to the toilet. Maybe even see your family for a few minutes after such a great posting of utter tripe.

          • Yeah, whatever. I’m not buying that drivel. Your handlers must have been up a while concocting that. That (conveniently) now defunct website is no doubt similar to the other websites and blogs that you’ve referenced in previous posts, all of them spouting anti Western, pro Russian, lies, deflections and myths. What you have described being carried out against Russian speakers in Ukraine by the Ukrainian military has been shown to be a lie and blatant Russian propaganda, file it in the same bin as bio labs, nuclear weapons being developed by Ukraine, dirty bombs, nazis and any other crap Putin spouts. If as you say you were horrified by the reports, why are you not equally horrified by the factual reports of the systematic rape and butchery of Ukrainian civilians by the Russian military? Russia always accuses others of the crimes it commits (Salisbury poisonings, chemical attacks in Syria, shooting down airliners, butchery in Ukraine etc), it is now deploying drones as a terror weapon.

            You’re wrong again about the militias in Donetsk and Luhansk. They were Russian military units sent in to foment unrest and conflict as part of a coup they attempted in Crimea and Donbas. The Ukrainians were perfectly entitled to resist and fight back against these invaders. Still are. That trope about them trying to wipe out Russian speakers is another lie peddled by the Kremlin and its lackeys

            I see that Putin has now resorted to saying that his war is about the de Satanization (!!) of Ukraine . Even he can’t sustain the lie about nazis and, like you, his narrative about his war becomes more contorted. He’s really at war with western values of freedom, plurality and success, but his militarily inferior forces would be blasted back to the stone age if he attempted to attack Nato. He thought Ukraine would be easy pickings, how wrong he was. They’ve encountered defeat after defeat by Ukraine alone.

            So, once again, you’ve failed to properly answer a question, deploying your usual repertoire of whataboutery, lies, deflection and bullshit.

            A hate filled inadequate little man.

          • Yes of course, as you “don’t hate Ukrainians as you have one as a friend”! Like I’ve said before that’s what racist wankers say just prior to being a racist wanker! You throbber! So, while we are taking, any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine?

          • ” Very sad really, it was downhill all the way from 1991 as the oligarchs extracted the wealth for their own, not the countries, ends. The comparison with Poland is pretty stark”

            What you’ve described there is Russia.

          • But will you first state that that is what happened and is currently happening in Russia? No of course you won’t!

          • One of the major reasons that Ukraine wanted to align itself with Western values of democracy and freedom and to shake off Russian influence was because of the stagnation and corruption that Russian interference brought to their politics and economic development. In Russia a very small cabal of corrupt oligarchs control the industrial and commercial wealth of the nation extracting the wealth for their own, not the country’s end. All with Putins say so.

            The Ukrainian people did not want that future. They still don’t.

          • Please provide evidence for the utter drivel you sprout… and I don’t mean from Russia Today.
            thanks

      • Russia really took a wrong turn with their MBT tank designs in the 1950s- they should have stayed with the super heavy stuff they had coming online after WW2- the IS7 for example was a superlative piece of kit and was probably 15-20 years ahead of Western designs. Instead they went for lighter MBTs with autoloaders and result is a “cruiser tank” with all the inherent weaknesses of a cruiser tank design. T62 through to T90s all have glass jaws.

    • There is a cautionary tale for us here too, with how many electronic components are made in the increasingly belligerent China

      • Agreed. It’s way beyond my knowledge of the subject but that seems a very good reason why we shouldn’t allow China to take Taiwan. However I don’t think we’ll ever find ourselves in as deep shit as Russia currently is.

          • You don’t actually need terribly high end chips for most defence stuff.

            It is more the graphic processors and CPU’s.

            The clever bit is in the software/firmware these days.

            But I do agree that ensuring sovereign supply is essential. It used to be Mullard -> bespoke chips -> RISC -> general CPU/graphics based stuff

          • Agree. You only need 4,5,6nm micro processor sets for the very latest radar, c3, AI super computer technology.
            The future however is quantium sub atomic chip sets. Unfortunately China is pushing research hard in this area.
            No massive breakthroughs yet but if they can get down to micro processors of <1nm then the processing power of say a smart phone sized PC will be phenomenal.

          • Yep. The government was happy to block the sale of ARM to NVIDIA on the bases of security and competition, but we are more than happy to let a Fab plant in Wales be sold.

          • I don’t think it was our Govt that blocked Arm it was the US. Which just shows how little control we now have, nearly everything uses some US IP. One of the reasons better cooperation with Japan is a bonus not that SoftBank proved an asset there.

          • The plant in wales makes chips for primarily automotive use, whilst high tech yes its not military linked. Plus it was sold a to a Dutch front for a Chinese company.

          • Absolutely. Could scarcely believe even the supposedly patriotic Tories would allow £ before national security like that.

        • Taiwan produces the worlds best micro processor chips using 5nm and less technology. After that USA chip makers are close behind. Most Chinese chips are in the 7-10nm technology bracket so not as advanced.
          If they captured Taiwan though that would be a big problem. The West would rapidly need to bring microprocessor production back in house.
          Fortunately the tooling for micro processor production at 5-6nm technology band is solely supplied by a manufacturer in Holland. They are the sole producer of equipment that can build the worlds best chips.
          So. In summary. If Holland doesnt supply china and Rusdia with the manufacturing equipment they cant produce the best most efficient chips.
          Still a 7-10nm grneration chip set can still power a missile or C3 set or radar suite. It just wont be as quick or have the computational power or efficiency of an equivalent 5-6nm set.

          • Then let’s all keep our fingers crossed that the Dutch intelligence services are on the ball for all our sakes.

          • Problem is these factories already exist in Taiwan. Yes we can stop Netherlands from exporting new machinery, but we can’t stop what’s already there if it’s captured intact. Really the high end is Taiwan, S.Korea, Japan & USA (as far as commercial, operating factories go). There are a number of smaller players, but they lack scale. These aren’t spring washers. China is somewhat behind, but it’s not just the Dutch lithography that in play. Globalisation has a few very obvious problems that too many decided to ignore. They thought is was the Grandchildren’s Grandchildren that had to worry about it, rather than their own children.

          • NATO, welcome to the concept of Future Shock. Believe someone wrote a book… approximately 40-50 yrs. ago…🤔😳😱

      • A lot is the answer. The US had to pause production of the f35 because it found Chinese chips in them. There was also a report by Congress (I think) which highlighted the overreliance of Chinese parts in us miltiary gear and the lack of capability to onshore it. If the US has that problem, you can bet our shoe string mod has way bigger issues.

          • Ah ok. Same effect though. Luckily realistically we won’t go to war with China, as it would literally break all economies globally, no western country could survive the economic impact.

          • Read only yesterday China could almost instantly close down US hi tech production (Western generally) because it has up to 90% control over a number of mined raw materials vital to electronic systems that would cost billions to replace even where possible.

          • Remember reading article(s?) re a joint Aussie/US effort to develop additional indigenous mines, processing and production capability (drawing blank on program title). In any event, effort presumably subsumed under AUKUS. Believe you’re covered, in any event. Pays to choose the right allies. 😁

          • Australia already has a number of mines & miners (US not so many). Rare Earths are actually not that rare. Finding them in enough concentration to make mining worthwhile is the problem (especially if you want to be environmentally responsible). The bigger problem is processing (also an environmental problem – unless you are in China). The Australian company at the forefront of allied efforts (Lynas) has 1 high tech processing plant in Malaysia & a preprocessing plant planned for Australia (near one of its mines). A number of other countries also have reasonable mining resources (but no processing). US no longer has a processor worth mentioning. Everyone except Lynas closed up & sent their ore to China. In this case, AUKUS actually could be spelt LYNAS.

          • Thanks then due to Aussies, in general, and Lynas (PLC? Inc.? Corp.? LLC?) in particular. Scum-sucking, slimeball ChiComs may have been fouled in attempt to corner market, w/ attendant leverage created and issues engendered. 🤞

          • Only if your stupid. Any military connected organisation that goes in that direction knows that that is the end of the road (in more ways than one). The problem tends to be more the commercial world. How sure are you that the high end Dutch machinery doing the lithography doesn’t already include such a chip?

          • The word is “Counterfeit”; chips purporting to be the real thing and it IS a concern even in the defence industry.

        • Task and purpose you tube channel did a video on global supply chains and used the NLAW as one of the examples. Bits from Sweden, Japan, Switzerland and a few more places and that’s just for a anti tank missile.
          All this shows is having enough stuff at the start is important as without a supplier countries backing you up it will go pear shape at some point.
          We need world peace and stability to prosper (even survive)

          • Yeah, luckily it’s a two way thing, China is heavily reliant on other countries also. It’s effectively a modern version of MAD. A major war these days would need an alliance of nations on both sides, any one country just couldn’t survive on its own, as it would rapidly find itself without the basics as sanctions hit.

          • Problem is only reliable allie to China is Russia. These are both very big countries. A lot of resources & large populations. Dictatorships tend to have a restricted view & don’t always react as expected. China is easy to blockade from the sea (Australia & Singapore can just about do it on their own). How do you do that on land without massive troops on the ground? Something I was told as a child – if every person in China lined up to March past you in single file, the line would never end – the number born every minute exceeds the speed of the line.

      • Its a concern thats for sure. You’d hope someone from MOD would be tasked with an urgent programme called “check the chips”. Check them all and make sure we have plenty of spares. Especially for advanced munitions and consumable spare parts.

      • Complete lack of strategic thought process by the UK. Complete naivety. e.g. Like letting ARM go too.

        Ditto many other strategic industries and resources. When will we get a Government that understands the concept of nurturing and protecting UK assets and capabilities?

  3. So tired of the confirmation bias with regards to ukraine on here. and wtf is defence intelligence doing just regurgitating information from selective twitter accounts!!??dig a little deeper into Telegram/twitter and you’ll find “ORYX” is far from the most credible of sources. Where’s the objectivity gone?

    • Yes, it is hard to conform either way. But Instagram has videos of at least 20 shoot downs of Mil 28s and Ka50/52s by MANPADS. Which is still a huge chunk of Russia’s purported to be very “modern” attack helicopters.

  4. Funny that some have Ukrainian engines, and the head of the Ukrainian engine company has recently been arrested for back-door deals to keep supplying the Rooskies. i.e Treason.

      • …don’t think they are going that far – just long prison sente nces when it is all over.

        There are a quite a few peeps in the UK you could also argue that their actions are “treasonus.” ….we still have the Tower 😉

    • Motor Sich severed its ties with Russia in 2014 and since then Russia has worked hard to develop replacement engines for its helicopter fleet, its main use of their products in new aircraft. They don’t have much plant left either after Russian attacks. Given that its curious as to why this guy was arrested.

      • Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet? It’s not hard, your a British citizen, age 76 living in MK, what’s to be scared of?

  6. These numbers are an absolute minimum. It’s most likely single digits that are still available to fly over Ukraine. Putins new wonder weapon is the biggest issue to counter just now. What can provide an effective defence against them will need to be worked out. While anti air missiles work there is such a massive area around Ukraine they can be launched from and missiles are expensive and need resupplied. Lasers could work but weather can cause issues and being in the correct place also. Fighters also work but again can’t cover the whole country 24/7.
    Even striking back at the launch locations is inside Belarus and Russia.
    If anyone has good ideas pass them onto Ukraine forces.

        • Yup that is a valid point, Iran has a lot of internal issues currently but it will be looking for any easy route to expand its ability to produce certain items to gain it strength in the region.

        • They’ve promised SU-35s from what I understand. Iran’s airforce is not in the best of shape, so they’d be likely interested in getting them- even if they’ll have to wait a while to get them all.

          • There is a batch of 24 Su-35S under manufacture for the Egyptian Air Force, 21 of which are currently parked around the factory. The order seems to have come to a grinding halt under the influence of US CAATSA rules. These are the aircraft that many regard as likely to be destined for Iran as a customer, replacing the F-14s etc. They will be available ex-stock.

            Whilst, given its range, it would be a good fit for Iran the possibility of Iran manufacturing from part or CKD Mig-29/35 seems to be a on the cards.

          • Iran will struggle to produce such aircraft as they are also under heavy sanctions from the west and have been for some time.

            Unless they sign a new nuclear treaty and the sanctions lift, then we could find Iran producing Russian weapons to resupply Russia, not in the short term though.

          • Sanctions can be a death knell unless you have something the World needs, like oil and gas. Then the main result seems to be increased self sufficiency and a developed smuggling network.

            Iran has a well developed high technology and manufacturing base well capable of what I suggest especially if there is good backup support from Russia. The nuclear treaty is probably irrelevant to them.

          • I see some highly modern D-1s being dragged into action by your rape squads! Things going well then…..

          • War time make any such situation mute. You transfer & worry about the after effects later. Such as WW1 & battleships destined for Turkey. The Turkish crew was even in UK for the transfer of their first Dreadnought, to find it transferred to the RN. Germany responded by offering to transfer German ships to Turkey. Hundreds of thousands of people died due to these handful of actions. Newton was onto something.

          • “A good fit for Iran”? Oh dear trolls with no military knowledge can be quite dangerous! Iran, massive sanctions, Iran, airforce all reverse engineered 80s kit, Iran, airforce shit just falls from the sky! And Iran, airforce, no platform trained ground crew,, spares, logistics (yes logistics I know it’s not important for Russia but all real military organisations live and breathe it), anyway I digress, unless of course you agree with the continued of breaking sanctions and Russian “cough, training teams” going to Iran to train their people in situ?

          • I wish that you’d rise above some of the trite comments you make on subjects you clearly know nothing about, which can also be dangerous as people reading them might think that you know what you are talking about on this subject.

            Sanctions, many lifted under JCPOA and last year the defence sales/purchases sanctions expired whilst much of the World ignore US sanctions as they are not UN.

            Airforce, very little actually reverse engineered but a lot, even most, of it 80’s vintage and, like any airforce, some “falls from the sky” a couple a year on average. They seem to have few shortages of manpower and parts and non of trucks or B747s for logistics.

            They are capable of maintaining, upgrading and manufacturing under licence. As a Mig-29 user that would be a natural for them. As demonstrated to the USAF at al Asad, they make complex and very accurate missiles along with their drones.

            Mutual trade of hardware and services between the two countries is legal under UN rules.

          • Oh dear, troll getting angry! Easily done when troll nonsense is challenged. I wish you would rise above some of the trite propaganda comments you make on untrue subjects and subjects you know nothing about as people reading them (small children and those maybe Corbyn type supporters) may think you know what you are talking about!

            Anyway I see you don’t really answer anyones posts or replies to you, as it will force you to answer direct questions with a direct answer! You don’t, your not allowed and your a coward! I will prove it right now, do you condemn this illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, and Putin, and agree the Russians should pull back to pre 2014 borders and and all those who orchestrated this invasion be brought to account…..?…….I think the term is….tumbleweed…..

          • As for Al Asad in 2020, not much to crow about, reports vary between 16-23 missiles fired at very large, static targets, which don’t move, with a 30% failure rate (don’t forget Erbil airbase, 2 x missiles targeted there, one failed to explode the other missed, I know Erbil well)! But I suppose to a Russian or a Russian stooge/troll that is quite an illustrious victory in comparison to the incompetence in their invasion of Ukraine.

    • Iranian suicide drones are said to use civilian electronics to keep the cost down. So they should be vulnerable to directed electronic warfare.

  7. Given the high rate of attrition, what are the implications for any future friendly use of Apache etc?

    Are tactics or defensive mechanisms being sufficiently upgraded?

    • Israel answered that way back in 1982 and then there was the fiasco of the 11th Attack regiment deep raid on Karbala losing a third of its Apache’s for further operations. Irrespective of the machine you don’t fly Helicopters over upswept ground, we knew that as early as Vietnam with peace for Galilee on cementing it. The best Attack helicopter for the Army would have been an A-10 and yeah it is not a chopper .

    • Ben Wallace may not be SoS for that long if Rishi won’t match the previous PM’s pledge for 3%. He said he would resign. Rishi has previously stated that 3% is arbitrary and not a plan.

      • I think the wording was if liz truss doesn’t stick to the commitment she has made. Gives him a get out clause. Hopefully he will stick it the election.
        Then maybe we will get a new commitment. Labour have said it needs to go up to match the threats so I would think the torys will have to at least match what ever they say in campaign.
        Rishi has a decision to make. Does he call an election straight away so he doesn’t have any bad news stories or policy disasters against him as PM or does he stick it out and hope he does a good enough job that voters are happy to see him and his party return. It’s a tough call to make. This is probably his dream job etc. I don’t know if He would want to gamble it straight away.

          • No idea, but given we have GEs every few years of late rather than every 5 I want things to settle down rather than Labour to get in effectively for free when a fee short years ago Starmer was trying to sabotage, stonewall and delay everything that moved

          • This Winter is going to be tough, so no point having an election now. It would just be a distraction. There might be a case for having a General election , next May or June, depending on the situation then.

          • With the increase in our debt due to Covid on top of which could be added the same again this winter from energy support, our Government is going to need all the time until the next GE. They are going to have to take some really unpopular but pragmatic decisions. They have maxed out the UK’s credit card and 5% a month will no longer cut the mustard.

            Our prosperity has been built on the foundation of low cost energy. That has now gone. The cost base of all the basic building blocks of industry is shot. Our financial services exports are on a knife edge. We are into some serious change.

          • Liz Truss was right about low growth. Giving tax breaks to rich bankers was not the way to fix it. 3 things Britain needs to do. Energy, build the Severn & Wash barriers & a fleet of new nuclear power plants. 2 build infrastructure. Just in time production does not work with Britain’s clogged roads. Those single carriageway A roads need to be dualled. Lastly, reshore industry to the UK. All the lockdowns in China show the folly of relying on China for critical components.
            Please stop pretending to be British, when we know sad Vlad is your boss.

      • Well Rishi from his Cabinet selection obviously wants both continuity and representation from across the party. So it would’ve been a disaster on first day if a Minister as popular as Wallace had resigned today.

        I suspect Wallace has already rung some concessions from him.

      • Not sure he will actually resign, after all his a polictican on the gravy train. His been the best defense minister for decades but still his surely a realist and knows resigning will just hit him and have no impact on the funds for the mod. He just stated that during the power struggle to keep himself meaniful.

    • Believe Ben Wallace has demonstrably been best SoS for Defense since (fill in the blank, could remain blank since his performance deemed nonpareil). Hell, I would be willing to swap majority of current US Cabinet, plus future draft choices! 😁

    • And for Veterans we get a dedicated Minister for Veterans Affairs back at the table. Truss promised to retain the post but reneged on that promise from day 1. Good move to see it reinstated especially as Veterans currently number around 2 mil people. Thats a good number of people you would want to keep happy in the hope of them voting for you.

  10. Ukraine was a major supplier of soviet era gear, it sold 320 T80ud to Pakistan and 33 T72 to Kenya , it also sold over 270 btr4 to iraq, the powers should use of some of the money raised to purchase this equipment and supply to ukraine. I would like to see the UK supply a rapier battery or 2 to protect cities from Iranian drones if we don’t need this kit we should provide it at very least it may generate sales of surplus kit if it performs well

    • We might need keep some of the Rapier for the UK too. Any further further news on CAMM/CAMM-ER for UK GBAD? How many Sky Sabre batteries/firing units actually exist now? I remember seeing a photo of at least one…

      • Daily Mail is reporting that Britain destroyed its retired Rapier, last year, so that is why they have not gone to Ukraine.

        • Hi John, yes i read that too. What really bad timing and bad luck. Likely these could have been mightily useful in Ukraine and very mobile too. No further news on Sky Sabre numbers for the UK yet either.

          • If you can put up a wall of fire to incoming Russian Aircraft, drones & missiles, then it does not matter if some of your SAM are a bit old. I believe the USA & some other nations are sending their old Hawk batteries to Ukraine.

  11. Russia is learning the hard way Von Moltke’s maxim about no battle plan surviving contact with the enemy. They thought that they’d have Kyiv wrapped up within days. Instead, it’s Putin who’s looking increasingly uncertain about remaining in power.

    • I really struggle to see how Putin loses power. The Kim’s have retained power despite ruining the entire populations’ lives for generations. And on top of that, if there is any small chance of Putin being overthrown, it won’t be by anti-war liberals, it’ll be by some of his circles most bloodthirsty members who think he’s gone soft.

      • True. It won’t be easy for anyone to overthrow him, saying that though , I’m fairly sure that as the consequences of his war become more apparent to Russians discontent will spread throughout the Kremlin. You’re probably right in your view that if he is replaced it will be by one of his more pro war people. That said, because the decision to go to war wasn’t theirs, a de-escalation and potential ceasefire/off ramp is more possible.

  12. Is the Hokum the most modern version of the Havoc? If so it is Russia’s apache longbow E equivalent. Thats going to hurt them losing so many. Expensive bits of kit to lose vs cheap MANPADS. Wonder how many were shot down by Starstreaks?

    • The Mil 28 Havoc, is a rough equivalent to the Apache, its primary role is a tank hunter. However, it more like a very early version of Apache, as its missiles are either semi-active command line of sight (SACLOS) radio guided, or laser guided. It does not have the fire and forget function.

      The Ka50/52 Night shark/Alligator. Was primarily designed for armed reconnaissance, but its other roles include close air support and helicopter hunting. As per the Havoc, it can also do tank hunting. But again, it uses the same missile as the Havoc, so does not have fire and forget missiles.

      Hokum is the NATO name for the Alligator version of the Ka52.

  13. I found strange no one comments on attack helicopter vulnerability and how US Army is adding 30-50km range Spike missile to its AH64 fleet with capability to fire from non line of sight.

    • You tube Binkovs battlegrounds has an interesting video asking if the attack copter is obsolete now with the proliferation of manpads.
      Whereas I would not take this as gospel, it certainly asks the questions….
      AA

      • I don’t think obsolete, but I think it’s role will have to be more cautious and limited. The whole strike consent of lighter vehicles operating on the ground with Apache providing the fire power from directly above, would need to be relooked at.

        I can see their roles being limited to high speed scout and runs or pop up style attacks.

        Saying that the most realistic war the west will fight will still be counter insurgency, where they are still king.

        • The key thing about attack helicopters is that they now probably have to have exceptionally good decoys and ECM/ ECCMs as well as laser dazzle turrets/ sensors in order to survive the inevitable MANPAD/ SAM attacks- this seems to be what is lacking with current Russian kit- they don’t seem to have the submunitions to survive. Reactive armour- filled with sand and fake, attack helicopters with none of the defensive aids NATO attack helicopters fly with eg Apache AH64 D-E, AH1 Cobra, Eurocopter Tiger, A129-Mangusta
          Russia’s armed forces looked impressive on paper pre war with everyone wondering how the Russians could maintain such a force structure on such a small defence budget- well the answer is simple- they cant. Their forces are lacking in all areas.
          What is really odd is that Russia pre war was carrying a huge reserve fund of £600-700 billion. This war chest was not spent in preparation and is now mostly frozen in accounts the Russian state and oligarchs cant get too. Seems that was fortunately Putin’s biggest failing- if he had spent £300-400 billion pre war ensuring adequate hardware, advanced precision guided weaponry and submunitions and spares/ spare parts were in stock then the performance of Russia’s armed forces might have been significantly better. Conjecture I know but it is thought provoking.

  14. Given that the Ka50/52 is the premier attack helicopter, even more so than the MIl 28. You would expect it to fare better. But when you delve into the images of downed Russian helicopters, from the humble Mil 8/17 to Mil 25s, 28s and the Ka50/52. What you see is a lack of defensive aids and countermeasures.

    On the tail booms of and on the rear undercarriage, especially the MIl 8/17s and 25s you can see chaff/fare dispensers, but you don’t see radar warning receiver (RWR) antennas, nor missile approach warning systems (MAWS). Which means to activate the decoys an observer/pilot must first see the approaching missile.

    On both the Mil 28 and Ka50/52 you do see RWR antennas, but on most you rarely see the MAWS optical sensors. Which are more important at detecting a MANPAD launch.

    In all the publicity pictures for airshows, you see these helicopters fitted with both RWR and MAWS. So, it’s likely the Russians simply did not have enough systems for a complete fleet fit. However, statistically over days, weeks and months, at some point even with the best detection and countermeasures at least a few aircraft will be shot down as probability starts swinging against you.

    What does this mean for our helicopters and the Apache in particular? Well, we deliver aircraft to combat zones with all the kit fitted. Which includes the countermeasures suite. I wouldn’t say we have enough for a complete fleet fit. But we certainly have enough for deployed units. As the aircraft going in for long term maintenance have it removed.

    We do make sure that aircraft deployed to a hot zone are fully prepared. Which means Apache, Wildcat, Puma 2, Merlin and Chinook are fully spammed up. Furthermore, both aircraft and crew regularly get tested against both SAM and MANPAD threats. Both the detection and countermeasures are also regularly tested against live missiles or captive seekers. With lessons learned applied to software updates, modified flare spectral bandwidths and intensities, jammer programming and pilot procedures. How much do the Russians do?

    • That implies available time to react, you go up you might have but then you are going to have to deal with a lot more missiles including radar guided from long distance etc.

      I think only a sort of APS for combat helicopters can save them.

      • Correct, Starstreak in particular was designed to counter attack helicopters, doing pop up then hide attacks. As the helicopter would only be in view for a short amount of time. Though using SACLOS guided missiles means they have to stay in view of their target for longer.

        Nap of the Earth flying still has its place. As it makes it harder to visually or aurally cue a helicopter. You know it’s out there but can zero in on it.

        For protection the standard DAS used on the majority of NATO helicopters, the MAWS and countermeasures are fully integrated. It’s detection, validation and firing time can be milliseconds. Apart from turning on and arming the system, the pilot only monitors the system, getting visual and aural alerts when a threat has been detected. They can use the info for break-lock maneuvers though!

        The problem for helicopters in particular, is aircraft firing at them from above. The blades can interfere with DIRCM/LIRCM. This would also be true for a kinetic kill APS. As it would need to be synchronized to fire, so it can miss the rotating blades. Though even that is doable.

        MAWS today, is very sensitive. Originally the UV version was used to detect the flash of the exhaust plume. Then by signature analysis it could tell the type. The optical sensors became multi pixel CCDs. Which when integrated with an inertial measuring unit, which meant it could then tell if the missile was heading towards you or not (saving on banging off flares), it then improved, where it could do time to impact calculations (generalized). Then it changed to primarily infrared based. Which meant (top end systems) it could also be used by the pilot to enhance their situational awareness, by allowing them a 360 hemispherical view around the aircraft.

        MAWS has got to the point where it can detect more than just missiles approaching the aircraft. But I can’t go into that in any detail. Suffice it to say, passive MAWS can cue the turrets of DIRCM/LIRCM. Being passive, it’s still not as accurate as a radar based MAWS for exact threat referencing. Which would be needed for a kinetic type of APS.

        The latest Trophy system uses three sensors to detect a threat. It uses laser warning, passive IR optical sensors (ie MAWS) and an active X-band AESA radar. The normal method of operating the system is by primarily using the laser and MAWS to detect a threat. When it confirms a threat is valid, it activates the radar. Which enables the system to engage the threat.

        The system has developed so that it can also provide mutual protection to other vehicles close by. The system can also log the threat’s firing point, whereby it can then train the turret towards it. It can also relay the firing position via datalink to other units.

  16. Raises a relevant question in regards to these platforms in ever nation! However, the aircraft kit which is fitted, to include RWR and other tech such as MWR, crew training and experience and up to date TTPs, would ensure that while western nations would lose platforms, not as much as the flying Nazis! What hasn’t helped is the Nazi Russian lack of air dominance, which is part of their doctrine, to cover attack Helios when supporting ground troops! The Russians are currently using their Ka fleet in high risk support missions against the ever increasing capability of the Ukrainians. And, for the Nazis invaders it will only get worse (good news story), and worse, as Ukrainian tech, platforms and people get better!

    • Agree- fortunately the aircraft isn’t up to the job of close air support. The Ukrainians can simply pop up fire a Starstreak at the thing and it is toast. Easy.
      It seems the tactical doctrine is all wrong. China will no doubt be examining the lessons of the Ukraine war very closely as they must be surprised by the poor performance of the Russian armed forces and crucially their high-end kit. Sadly most of China’s hardware is based on Russian technology and now they can see its ineffectiveness they will need to develop more and more of their own untested hardware to try to get around the technological and performance failings of this Russian kit. They can either do this methodically in which case they wont be ready to attack Taiwan until the 2030s or they can just surge forces forward, accept huge casualties in which case they could feasible have a go at Taiwan anytime really.
      Interestingly I wouldn’t be surprised if China were to make territorial claims against Russia’s eastern Siberia territory. It seems ripe for the taking – I don’t think the Russians have anything to stop them. Vladivostok and thus pacific ocean ports would be open to them as would the Aleutian islands and a passage through the north to the artic and its rich fishing and maritime resources. Not to mention oil/ gas reserves that China craves for its ongoing development.
      Canada and USA need to be alert to this threat. They really wouldn’t want the Chinese poking around Alaskan territorial waters or Canadas artic coastline.

  17. The question that arises from all of this is, how are they still going on than, and how is it that the Ukrainians have still not managed to recapture kherson?

  18. Todays Daily mail, page 25, claims Britain destroyed its retired Rapier batteries last year. So that is why they have not been given to Ukraine.

    • The caveat likely refers to the means of destruction, but no matter the means, they are burnt out scraps of Nazi aluminium polluting Ukraine soil. Who cares how they go down, the good news story is they are down! 😃👍

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