The October 7th 2023 attacks are likely just the beginning of another wave of Terrorist attacks that the world must act quickly to deter and prevent.

Back in 2021, I wrote two articles relating to the withdrawal from Afghanistan and the resurgence of the Taliban that came about because of it.

Two years on, pro-Iran terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are in active warfare against Israel, and other groups are regularly attacking US forces across the Middle East as the rise/return of terrorist groups intensifies.


This article is the opinion of the author and not necessarily that of the UK Defence Journal. If you would like to submit your own article on this topic or any other, please see our submission guidelines


The problem is, the world should have seen this coming – and I was one of many who wrote back in 2021 warning that this day would come.

The US and allied withdrawal from Afghanistan has, to a certain extent, emboldened the terrorist world. After 20 years of fighting there, the Taliban ultimately won – a fact that most politicians shy away from and a fact that has caused despair among many veterans I’ve spoken to, several of whom have asked: “Was it all in vain?”

The issue is the October 7 2023, attack on Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza shows that the threat of attacks will always be present while these groups continue to exist. Israel’s intent now is to do its very best to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth, a task that has already cost 320 soldiers in total both during and after the attack and will likely cost a great deal more in the coming weeks and months.

The fall-out from that attack is also noticeable. We’ve seen more than 30 attacks by pro-Iran terror groups against US bases across Iraq and Syria in the last few weeks, many of these emboldened by Hamas’ successes. We’ve also seen the Houthi militias in Yemen firing missiles towards Israel, with a notable 9-hour-long anti-air engagement carried out by a US Navy destroyer in the Red Sea and an IDF air intercept of this attack hitting the news around a week ago.

Elsewhere, we’ve seen a rise in antisemitic hate crimes and targeted attacks against Israelis/Jews worldwide, one recent example being a Jewish woman in France stabbed in her own home on 4th November, with a swastika drawn on her flat door by the suspect.

The US response to the Hamas attacks has probably been the most notable. At the time of writing, two carrier strike groups comprising the USS Gerald R Ford (CVN-78) and USS Dwight D Eisenhower (CVN-69) and their escorts are operating in the Eastern Mediterranean to the south of Cyprus, ready to deal with any overflow by pro-Iran groups – their presence intended to act as a deterrent to Iran and its proxies more than anything else.

The rest of the international community’s responses have been a mixed bag however. Turkey’s President Erdogan (generally regarded as a bit of a rogue figure within NATO), has come out in support of Hamas and indicated willingness to intervene against Israel if the ground invasion of Gaza continues.

Germany, on the other hand, has announced plans to expel from the nation anyone (citizens or foreigners) who shows support for Hamas. The UK is somewhat of a middle ground in this, with politicians mostly showing support for Israel’s right to self-defence and calling for appropriate protections for innocent civilians in Gaza. However, allowing pro-Palestinian protests in major cities where dozens of people have been arrested so far for showing support of Hamas and the atrocities they committed on October 7th.

And herein lies the issue – large parts of the world have often repeated “Never again”, when referencing Nazi Germany’s holocaust against the Jewish people during World War II. Many of those same nations are now either silent following the October 7th attacks or are backing the inevitable United Nations calls for a ceasefire… something which Israel cannot realistically consider given Hamas’ own claims that it will carry out similar attacks again.

Israel’s only option is to destroy Hamas or face its own extinction – the Hamas Charter literally states one of its primary aims is the destruction of the Jewish state, a fact not denied by most of the supporters at these pro-Palestine protests in major cities, where chants of “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free.”

To be clear for those in any doubt, that chant refers to the idea that the “Palestine” state would stretch from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea… the entire area currently covered by Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

The issue the West faces now is that whether it supports Israel or not, Hamas’ actions have stirred up major issues globally. The support seen for the group on the streets of London is an alarming example of how much support there still is for terrorist groups, whether they be “radical Islamist groups” or as the USA has recently been dealing with “white supremacist groups”.

London’s Metropolitan Police Service has had to make numerous arrests since the October 7th incident for offences under the Terrorism Act 2003, one of the main ones being Support for a Proscribed Terrorist Group (Section 12, Terrorism Act 2003). UK policing as a whole is working overdrive to try and deal with these now publicly visible threats, and one has to wonder how many of these now public supporters for Hamas and other groups were previously known to the intelligence services.

Back in 2021, I wrote two articles following the US and allied withdrawal from Afghanistan, warning that it was only a matter of time before we’d see serious terror threats in the West again. You can read those articles here:

Afghanistan – What the withdrawal means for the world (Published 2nd September 2021).

Afghanistan – What the withdrawal means for the world

The War on Terror – Back to square one after 20 years? (Published 22nd September 2021)

The War on Terror – Back to square one after 20 years?

In those articles, I pointed out that the political willpower to continue the fight on the ground to eradicate terrorist groups was gone, and that, more than anything else, was why the US and, subsequently, its allies announced withdrawal (and effectively defeat) from Afghanistan and the fight with the Taliban. I wasn’t alone at the time in warning that without a counter-terrorism presence in the region, groups like the Taliban, ISIL and al-Qaeda would have time to grow.

We’ve also seen major failings from Western governments when it comes to dealing with the sources of several of these groups. Iran, widely regarded as the number one state-sponsor of terrorism, has been allowed to get away with a lot of things, with dozens of nations, including the US, failing to uphold sanctions against the regime, well known for its human rights abuses. The United Nations has even given Iran a seat on its Human Rights Council while criticising Israel’s self-defence against terrorism, perhaps one of the strongest indications of the UN’s inability to fully function as a global force for good.

The concern now will be whether or not the Western world wakes up and acts. France has already had numerous attacks and bomb threats in the wake of the attack on Israel – at one point, some six major French airports were closed due to simultaneous bomb threats. France bore the brunt of the wave of terror attacks across Europe between 2017 and 2020, suffering 26 different attacks with 24 dead and 77 wounded.

It also experienced one of Europe’s worst attacks back in November 2015 when a series of incidents saw 131 dead and 413 wounded. The UK itself faced 128 attacks between 2017 and 2020, resulting in 47 deaths and 320 wounded.

I fear we could see a return to these kinds of attacks soon. A former Hamas chief recently called for mobilisation of supporters around the world, stating: “To all scholars who teach jihad… to all who teach and learn, this is a moment for the application (of theories)”. 

Western governments either need to clamp down hard on any show of support for Hamas and its genocidal beliefs or face the widespread consequences that will follow. One thing is clear – whatever we do, the War on Terrorism is far from over.

Image by Alisdare Hickson, CC BY-SA 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons.

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Jon, who many of you know as 'Defence Geek', is a leading member of the Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) community. He is the co-host of the OSINT Bunker Podcast which is made in collaboration with the UK Defence Journal and is a Co-Founder of the Military Aviation Tracking Alliance group whose work providing news during the Kabul Airlift reached millions of people.
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John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago

Random thoughts. On another thread, I said that while a democracy should allow peaceful protest, there may be times when an atrocity has just happened & lives are still being lost, that a temporary ban on protests that could be seen as hate crime, could/should be justified. Six weeks should do it. The asylum rules need to be updated. They should only be for the innocent, not the guilty. Those guilty of crimes against humanity, murder, terrorism, hijack, armed robbery & major drug dealing, should not be able to claim asylum. While diversity & inclusion is a fine goal, it… Read more »

john martin
john martin
5 months ago

You are so correct in this but we are lead by donkeys, as someone once said, all at the upper level of our once great country. Nothing I believe will change.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
5 months ago
Reply to  john martin

And when do you think it stopped being a great country? It is still very much a great country and always will be. Compared to life in most countries, we don’t realise how good we have it, and take so much for granted. We have our problems, but generally, not as bad as other nations. 🇬🇧

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
5 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Well said, America has it good too, I really don’t know what delusional period of having it better they are referring to. There are a lot of things to complain about but we also have to have perspective time, this Country is immeasurably a better place for most than it was when I grew up in the 60s and 70s even if there are aspects are rightfully worrying for the future.

pete
pete
5 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

1979

Joe16
Joe16
5 months ago

I think we may be glossing over the major differences/rifts between Shia and Sunni extremist groups here, because my understanding is that these matter. Of course, they will learn by observation- and I agree that they’ll be encouraged by the “lesson” of longevity from Afghanistan. But the article seems to lump the terror attacks in France and London (and more widely across Europe) with the actions of Hamas on the 7th October, and there I have to disagree. The former were Sunni extremists, mostly inspired by ISIS or Al Qaida, who have a very different (and often opposing) set of… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

Thankyou for that considered discussion. what I would say is that although there are very significant tensions between Shia and Sunni groups, the studies show that there is no discernible difference between the extremist groups and their motivations, the motivations are historically based around the simple belief that any and all consecrated Muslim lands must be Governed by a Muslim government using Muslim law, this is their indisputable truth. They also all believe that the crusader west ( US and puppets) as well as the communist east are all controlled by a world wide Zionist conspiracy, this includes all the… Read more »

Expat
Expat
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Good post, very informed. The particular quote below has been true in modern times elsewhere in the world. The Major of Jakarta was jailed for daring to suggest that a Muslim should vote for a non-Muslim, which prompted Blasphemy calls against him. It would suggest that a Muslim voting for Non Muslim is also committing Blasphemy. Which would make politics irrelevant if only 1 party has entered a Muslim candidate.

simple belief that any and all consecrated Muslim lands must be Governed by a Muslim government using Muslim law

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/09/jakarta-governor-ahok-found-guilty-of-blasphemy-jailed-for-two-years

Last edited 5 months ago by Expat
Jonno
Jonno
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Good explanation what we are involved in.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Time for a lie down Jonathan 🙂

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Nope there is far to much to read…🤔although I can lie down and read at the same time.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Well take it easy. I rely on your erudition. Otherwise I would have to resort to chatgpt 🙂

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Don’t listen to the robots Paul, they want to destroy us all. Although their grammar, spelling and typing skills are far superior to mine……….😧

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

This AI isn’t all its cracked up to be….shown a family photo it generated an error message saying I couldn’t be in two places at once …the ‘other me’ was my adult son. And the immigration passport face scanner was @@dy useless. My border collie could identify me from a hundred yards 🙂

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

So it will be a war against slightly shite AI….that’s why terminator kept losing…he was unstoppable but got beaten by a 20 something girl.

DH
DH
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

👍Appreciated. Thanks

Jonno
Jonno
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Wrong. If you bury your head in the sand you can’t see or hear and will eventually suffocate. Read a critical book on (militant) Islam and come back when you have clued yourself up

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonno

Thanks, but as a Catholic Christian I think I am well enough clued up on the limitations and deceptions of Islam, and the risks it poses to western civilisation. 😉

Jonno
Jonno
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

OK that’s good to hear.

Joe16
Joe16
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Hi Jonathan, apologies for the late reply, and really appreciate the time you took in responding. As I said, I don’t disagree with the conclusions of your article, I’m just mindful that the practical application between dealing with Sunni and Shia Muslim extremists -in the UK at least- is in my mind different. I apologise if my implication was that you weren’t aware of the differences (and similarities), that wasn’t the intent and clearly isn’t accurate. The additional background and context you’ve given is helpful, and more studied than I am. I’ve read a couple of “popular” books on the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

Hi Joe, yes I agree that in the end the only way to deal with extremism ( of any variety) is remove its breeding and recruiting grounds and we know from experience the more you marginalise and disenfranchise the greater the chance people will develop extremism views..after all we know than if you marginalise an entire nation it’s likely that entire nation will fall to extremism, Germany being the classic example….the problem is you can also get that rise in extremism without the marginalisation..fascism was after all born in Italy, a nation that was not in anyway marginalised at the… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Mark F
Mark F
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, a very interesting read.
Im sure the Elite’s who lead this world by there design will recieve there karma one day, just a question of time !

Ian
Ian
5 months ago

It’s a challenge- undermining free speech for reasons other than a direct and severe threat to national security doesn’t seem appropriate to me. But then if we were fighting a conventional war against another state I doubt that protesting on behalf of the enemy would be deemed acceptable. Does diplomatic support to an ally fighting a non-state enemy meet the same threshold?

Joe16
Joe16
5 months ago
Reply to  Ian

That’s an excellent question: it’s far harder to get laws onto the books in situations like this than getting them off again.
What with the recent restrictions already put on the right to protest, not to mention some of the stuff going on the books in terms of general freedom of speech and causing offense, I’m a shade concerned frankly. Which feels really weird and conspiracy-theorist to be saying…

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

I think you are right to be concerned. The Tory peer and former party chair Baroness Warsi has called the Home Secretary “dangerous and divisive” in her comments on the pro Palestine marches: she also said some in government “project as patriots but they are arsonists”. After the election there will be a vacancy for leader of the conservative party. Suella Baverman is trying to attract support by being provocative and divisive. I heard Dorothy Byrne on Sky say that Ms Braverman’s comments were ‘repulsive’. In the immortal words of Terry Wogan…me, me, me. I’m pleased to see that good… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

You should be ashamed of yourself, what about a British Intifada after the profanation of Cenotaph and the next 11 November Hamas support march for the same day of Commemoration of Veterans and pay respects to those that died for the country?

These are clear provocations to show Islamist power. To not talk about the coward service much of police – thankfully not all – have made.

Is there nothing anymore sacred in West for you?

Last edited 5 months ago by AlexS
Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  AlexS

At the risk of repeating myself: Suella Braverman’s ‘righteous indignation’ is naked self interest – electioneering – as are the comments of those ministers of the government who are supporting her. One of the two women I quoted is a Muslim and the other was educated at a convent school yet they have both seen through her hypocritical self interest. Go figure. The proposition that members of the cabinet are wiser and more patriotic than the people who elected them is at best fanciful and at worst frankly insulting.

Jonno
Jonno
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

No, I dont think its about Braverman’s self advancement, that’s being cynical. Its about the alliance of the Marxist left and Islamists coalescing to cause maximum disruption to 11/11 and the narrative behind that.
I think she sees it clearly, whereas others do but want to duck out.
She is saying what a lot of people think.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonno

That’s a view of course. I don’t personally know any Islamists or Marxists so I can’t say whether they could in a sort of autocratic alliance. I don’t see Suella as some kind of gifted Mystic Meg; rather I see her as a one woman autocrat. She is gunning for Rishi and will pull him down as a lioness pulls down a young antelope. He was a compromise candidate for leader. If he doesn’t sack her she will harry him until he calls an election. If he sacks her my bet is the cabinet and tory party will split and… Read more »

Jonny
Jonny
5 months ago
Reply to  AlexS

HAHAHA, now 11th November is over you look like a fool. It was a bunch of right wing hooligans who were rioting at the Cenotaph, meanwhile on the other side of London there was a peaceful protest for Palestine. Plenty of videos of it if you don’t believe me…

As usual Cruella Braverman stirring up divisive hatred amongst the simple minded in a desperate attempt to stay in power. She’s dangerous and needs to go.

Expat
Expat
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Why are Bravemans comments any less divisive than Labour ads saying Rushi supported paedophiles not being jailed. These are politician we’re talking about no matter which side of the house they sit they’re divisive because they want be in power.

Nathan
Nathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Expat

They’re not divisive. They just cut uncomfortably close to the bone for the complacent establishment. It is demonstrably true that a double standard exists in the interpretation of law. Her calling that reality out is an implicit attack on the direction of political travel accepted by them – and they don’t like it. It looks and feels much like the politics of the USA. The so called right, in truth a much broader coalition nowadays, are repulsed by the weaponisation of the institutions of the state against non-conformists or “enemies” of the Democratic party. I think we are seeing similar… Read more »

Expat
Expat
5 months ago
Reply to  Nathan

So in your opening statement you saying Rushi a family man supports paedophiles not going to jail. I don’t support either party but that’s a stretch tbh.so i don’t think you can differentiate between the 2 these adds and comments are to seed devision. Its clear both parties are flogging outdated ideologies that are no longer fit for purpose. Hence, they’re both unfit to govern, again as non aligned that’s very obvious.

Nathan
Nathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Expat

You have a negative interpretation of what I wrote. You wrote:

“Why are Bravemans comments any less divisive than Labour ads saying Rushi supported paedophiles not being jailed”

I said, those comments are not divisive. Since you were referring to Bravemans words that’s what I responded to – not Labour’s.

I don’t believe her comments are divisive. I didn’t pass comment on Labour’s words.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Expat

Personal view but I see Remembrance as one of the few occasions when the country comes together to say thankyou to those who sacrificed themselves for our freedoms. I take a dim view of making career advancing political capital out of it. There are plenty of other topics to choose. Ms Baverman seems intent on generating conflict between Musims and Jews and splitting the Tory party – so she can remake it in her own image of course.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Ian

I think the issue here is what are they actually protesting about…peace in Palestine and Israeli and a settled two state solution….well that’s our governments view as well as the view of the UN so you can hardly stop that….if on the other hand they are showing support for Hamas…by that fact they are supporting a proscribed terror organisation as well as calling for the destruction of Israel which is against laws on anti semitism ( to support Hamas is to support the destruction of the Jewish state and the ethic cleansing of the the Jewish people in the levant)…..chanting… Read more »

farouk
farouk
5 months ago

Funny how when I alluded to this anti-British mindset woven into the DNA of recent imports and their sycophantic support base , I was castigated as a Racist. (despite the fact , my parents were imports to the UK) I spoke from personal experience and yet those who believe everything they are told by political, religious and cultural activists have not only berated me, the other day one them stated that I should be deported. (So much for been nice to everyone eh!) Well the other day we saw Police attacked with fireworks at Trafalgar sq , There was a… Read more »

Farouk
Farouk
5 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Update
Edinburgh war memorial was last year

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  farouk

To be honest I’ve never seen anything like that, but then I spend most of my time in a leafy middle class village in the south east…where the biggest issue revolves around what real ale has the pub got casked.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Well yes, it’s an inner city problem. Where, of course, most of the immigrants to this country over the last 50 years have settled. So that is where the militant elements amongst them will be. In time, the leafy middle class villages and towns will be next, as another million arrive over the next 4 years, And the next million after that, and on, and on, including a quota amongst them of those who won’t integrate but have their own loyalty elsewhere. Which results in what for society in this nation? As everyone whistles in the wind and pretends there… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

I make it a policy not to go to cities to be honest..horrible places…give me leafy middle England any-day of the week…even little affluent cities like Brighton are more than I want to deal with….never been much of a lover of multiculturalism to be honest, it’s essentially a road to ghettoism on a grand scale…integration is the only sustainable model for a nation. our entire culture is based around ( or should be based around ) the freedom of the individual, not the freedom of groups, as the freedom of groups can and does massively impact on the freedom of… Read more »

Expat
Expat
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Its is fascinating how people want to escape the 3rd countries then arrive here and want to create little piece of that 3rd world country here. Anyone speaking up against it is labelled and cancelled.

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Expat

Yes. It’s a special word that the left use that destroys all dissent “you must be a racist.” Works every time. Anyone who says they want to preserve their own incredible culture in Britain and the West is automatically cancelled and called an evil monster. What is happening to Britain, Ireland and many other countries is abhorrent and it;’s happening faster and faster every year. You will be replaced and the laws will change against you, and you will be forced to conform to their cultural norms not your own. All to be burned on the sacred leftist altar of… Read more »

Expat
Expat
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

Let’s not forget the label populist, as soon as politician becomes popular for challenging the status quo they are labelled populist. But the reality is we live in a democracy the the most popular politician should win.

Jonno
Jonno
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Blame those on the far left who have stirred up the grievances that grow identity politics. What we need is to continue a unified national identity which served the country well. Identity Politics is corrosive and divides people more and more into angry groups.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonno

To be honest I think identity politics has been something stirred up pretty equally by the far left and far right…they use what are valid grievances, that need to be heard and discussed..such has the left behind and disenfranchised very poor white what was once working class communities but are now an unskilled underclass without hope or the afro Caribbean communities again poor disenfranchised…then these far left and right essentially rabble rousers use the void left by mainstream disengagement and the grievances for their own ends….unfortunately when the main stream does not engage the fringes will use it for their… Read more »

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

As the new Argentinian President says “every need has a right, but there are many needs and they cannot all take precedence.” This guy is going to be a force to reckon with. Watch his interview on youtube it’s incredibly enlightening coming from a socialist country that has had its’ economy practically destroyed by the left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-8tAtJStM&t=1364s

Jonathan
Jonathan
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

“Every need has a right but they cannot all take precedence” very true indeed. Something that many people refuse to accept and will only see the world in regards to “their” right. Personally my view is that all rights are nothing more that a cultural construct and are actually an illusion ( there is no right to life…just ask those dying in a famine). I prefer to think that society is infact bound by a set of obligations…if you look at the history of civilisation they were not constructed on rights but on obligations.. so we all have obligations to… Read more »

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Jonno

100% But is it too late?

Expat
Expat
5 months ago
Reply to  farouk

The irony is Gaza controlled by Hamas was anything but free. Try being openly LBGTQ etc or holding an anti Hamas rally in Gaza an see where you end up.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Expat

Equally sadly the population of GAZA voted for and supported HAMAS (and the majority still support) an essentially genocidal group of religious driven neo Nazis.

DH
DH
5 months ago
Reply to  Expat

Tick that box
👍

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Expat

Correct. They burn gays alive. They are not liberal they are brutal religious fascists and there is no give and take.

Jonny
Jonny
5 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Well now rememberance day is over… It was a bunch of right wing hooligans who were rioting at the Cenotaph, meanwhile on the other side of London there was a peaceful protest for Palestine. Plenty of videos of it if you don’t believe me…

As usual Cruella Braverman stirring up divisive hatred amongst the simple minded in a desperate attempt to stay in power. She’s dangerous and needs to go.

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Jonny

Anyone who stands up for your country’s values, heritage and principles is “right wing” eh? Not patriots but evil right wingers. I argue that the evil ones are the left wing supremacists who are literally selling your heritage and unique British exceptionalism down the drain. You and your self loathing ilk are the enemy of your own country, real, modern day 5th columnists.

Last edited 4 months ago by Rob
Jonny
Jonny
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

Right wing yes, because they were being stirred up by the right wing media, in turn being stirred up by Cruella Braverman. Anyone who knows right wing media such as the daily fail for the drivel that it is, wouldn’t have joined these stupid “patriotic protests”. It’s strange that the “patriots” were the only ones who were disrupting the cenotaph area that day isn’t it? I don’t understand how a peaceful protest (one of our fundamental rights) on the other side of London is “selling our heritage and unique British values down the drain”. I would say they were in… Read more »

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Jonny

Jonny, why do you refer to Suella Braverman as “Cruella” Braverman? What did she do that was cruel? Please be specific in your answer and don’t change the subject please. And just so you know, we know that you leftists like your slogans “from the river to the sea” “black lives matter” and so on, and strange names for Politicians you hate is part of that. We also know you are surface level thinkers who like meme’s and slogans but not any detail, no below the surface data, no historical facts. Slogans. So if you will, tell me and others… Read more »

Jonny
Jonny
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

You’re hilarious, thank you for giving me a laugh. I’ll ignore the part where you didn’t respond to anything I said… And give some things that Cruella has done and said… “Homelessness is a lifestyle choice”, along with plans to deter charities from giving tents to homeless people. The fact that her dream is “to have a front page on the telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda”. I mean come on that’s pretty sad isn’t it? In fact she said it was her “obsession”. Describing the Palestine marches as”hate marches” and inciting hooligans to go and disrupt the… Read more »

Farouk
Farouk
5 months ago

Google:

“”As two young British servicemen walk though Trafalgar Square, they were on the receiving end of some abusive language, with the man on the right of the frame making a spitting motion toward them. Out of frame he reached for my phone as I walked past. Date taken 4/11/23″”

for the twitter video

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Farouk

But Johnny and his media (bbc) said it didn’t happen.

Last edited 4 months ago by Rob
Jonny
Jonny
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

That sounds horrible and they should be held accountable, but one or two isolated incidents doesn’t compare to the carnage that was being caused by the hooligans at the cenotaph on remembrance sunday…

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
5 months ago

Clearly we are witnessing the alleged benfits of multiculuralism by permitting a totally alien miltant and I hesitate to call it a religion as its total reason for existing is the subversion of all and every other belief system and is by defition is the antithesis to Democracy as it imposes the Quoran as superior and dominant to all else and we must be servient to it.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Lazerbenabba

The West is weak and vulnerable because it has abandoned the faith which created it. Free market liberal democracy, secular consumerism and soapy multiculturalism cannot provide defensive barriers to contain Islamic expansionism and missionary ambition. On its current trajectory Islamic expansionism will lead to our society experiencing a joyless shut down which will make the covid lockdown look like a day out at Alton Towers. Neither the fascist nor the communist flavours of autocracy are the answer.

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

100% accurate.

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Lazerbenabba

Exactly. Putting our heads in the sand is no working. We are soft and will be erased faster than we think.

Farouk
Farouk
5 months ago

As this is the ME message board, do a search on:
“”A Hezbollah sniper was cheerfully shooting at the IDF on the Lebanese-Israeli border but then this happened…””

I wonder if he was taken out with the Israel Iron Sting (120 mm guided mortar munition)

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Farouk

I seriously worry about the northern border, Hezbollah are not to be taken lightly and are exactly the same extremists who would kill every Israeli they could get their hands on…trouble is they have between 50,000 to 100,000 fighters..a big supply of ballistic missiles ( they are saving for their big day) a few hundred thousand guided and unguided artillery rockets, More artillery tubes than most European armies, anti tank missiles by the 1000s a good number of anti air missiles and even around 100 anti ship missiles.. now in normal times the IDF could easily manage Hezbollah..but they are… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It seems you are not alone in being worried about Israel’s northern border – we have withdrawn our ambassador and embassy staff.

AlexS
AlexS
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Israel have keeping responding to every Heezbollah attack. Today several attacks again.

Heezbollah already admitted more than 60 combatant losses.

The media has usual doing an horrible job and once again seems a detriment to get information on what is happening.

Tams
Tams
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I honestly don’t care at this point.

Neither Palestine nor Israel have ever even just apologised (worse, glorifying the terrorists) for terrorising us when we were trying to keep the peace there, so they all deserve none of our time and attention.

Farouk
Farouk
5 months ago

Google:
In UK can you, with one’s face covered, verbally assault, threaten and insult police officers without arrest?

and watch the video

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Farouk

It seems our oft criticised racist, misogynist and homophobic police have the patience of a saint….funny that.

AlexS
AlexS
5 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

They have much patience to the Extreme Left and Islamist side.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  AlexS

Morning Farouk, indeed they do. Like most people in this country I will attend a Remembrance service this weekend. There was a price paid for peace and freedom we enjoy. The principle of sacrifice is the very foundation of our national values and in fact, of western culture. Those who are being allowed their protest for Palestine would do well to remember who bought the freedom they enjoy.
As regards extremists I trust our intelligence services to keep us safe.

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Why do left wing supremacists put all things into groupings? Is it collectivism? Not all police are as bad as you described. You are the enemy of your country. You pray for the destruction of your country but you will be stopped. People are waking up to who you are and what your plans are.

Paul.P
Paul.P
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

Time for a lie down and a nice cuppa there Rob. Take it easy:-)

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I almost got killed in 1982 for this country. I’ve got skin in the game because of my sacrifices and those of my friends who were killed on Coventry – and cannot bear to see what you are allowing to happen to Britain. I watched young men in their prime drowning when they leapt into the frigid sea off of the side of Coventry. Some of them 18 years old. Many died and for what? For this version of Britain? A nation teetering on the edge of being an Islamic republic? Sharia law? No go zones?

Last edited 4 months ago by Rob
Paul.P
Paul.P
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

Not sure that we are anywhere close to being an Islamic Republic yet, but you have a point. We honour the sacrifice of the fallen and wounded once a year but really, as the government exemplifies, we are still hooked on a ‘what’s in it for me’ punishment culture. Keeping shouting; change will come soon.

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Thanks Paul. As Kennedy once said, and this appears to be forgotten “ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.” That sentiment has been completely lost on both sides of the Atlantic, as many people rush to declare their so-called identity politics victimhood and expectations around entitlement. In short: give me stuff that you’ve earned because I’m a victim of the system.

Change cannot come soon enough – but I agree it is coming.

Last edited 4 months ago by Rob
Roy
Roy
5 months ago
Reply to  Farouk

it’s RT … very subtle and effective. Matches the skill of UK propaganda in WWII.

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts
5 months ago

People like this give anti-imperialism a bad name. Where’s Salisbury/Wellesley/Cobden when you need them?

If you want mass migration, keep it limited to friendly populations- Botswana, Ghana, Kerala (we need traditional Malabarian Christians to regenerate our decaying native religions), Hong Kong (with CCP agents screened out and deported), and CANZAC. …but then, that wouldn’t be “mass” migration, would it?

I can’t imagine Gurkhas behaving like this at the Cenotaph.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago

The implication that these protests support Hamas is stretching the point somewhat. They are based on the ‘non-combatant’ consequences of the IDF’s actions. Though this is made more complicated as the terrorists, like all of them, are often indistinguishable from the civilian population. Since Hamas is supposedly trying to protect and protest the historic treatment of Palestinians the debate is far more nuanced than the media tend to portray. Especially as Britain’s also historic post empire role has helped create the causes of the disputes. Most of which are exacerbated by the Israelis. They rightly deplore and fight against terrorism,… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Yes, but if Hamas had gone to Israel to do a deal, it would have been a darn sight better than what is happening now to Gaza. Look at the deals Israel has done with the Arab Gulf states over the last few years. Gaza could have had that, if Hamas was willing to be reasonable. Trade, tourism, technology all thrown away, by Hamas refusal to recognise Israel.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Of course. Hamas as an entity are not interested in anything other removal of the state of Israel. But if Israel had been more respectful of Palestinians it would have been much harder for Hamas to get where it is. It champions and represents the Palestinians in the absence of any other. It is all very well expecting an indiginous population to reject terrorism but they are often cowed and rarely if ever in a position to do anything. That is why Israel’s actions provide the very conditions that Hamas exploits. To have friendly relations with a neighbouring country or… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I think you have got the cart before the horse. Once Hamas got elected once, it has not risked another election. So ordinary Palestinians don’t get a say on if they still want Hamas. People blame Israel for the blockade, but Hamas uses anything, no matter how innocent, to make weapons, bunkers, tunnels, to attack Israel.
Israel is willing to make deals with Middle East Muslim Countries. Hamas is not willing to do a deal with Israel. The blame is 100% with Hamas.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I think perhaps you haven’t really read what I said! Nothing to do with carts and horses, but if you are being pedantic the history of the area goes back to our Empire decisions post WW1. While the deplorable actions of Hamas certainly initiated the latest conflict it is not helpful to see it in isolation. Yes Hamas has a policy of eliminating Israel. But what I was pointing out that it is the recent historic actions of the Israelis that feeds the Hamas narrative. Israel is as much therefore to blame as anyone else. The Palestinians have been treated… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The Jewish state was there before Palestine (2000 years ago). The UK got out in 1947, because we were broke. If the Muslim states had accepted partition, this mess would not still be upon us. They did not. They tried to crush Israel & failed. Since then, the Muslims have had 2 choices, live In peace & do deals with Israel, or choose violence & try to destroy Israel. Israel is happy to do deals with Muslim states that recognise it. That is the bright spot. Hamas could have had such a deal if they wanted, but on 7th October… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Your response shows you haven’t read what I said. I did NOT blame the Israeli victims. And your stupid and unhelpfyul comment at the end shows you haven’t put any thought into things, making facile and childish assumptions. So think about it. Does pushing Palestinians out of their lands, building settlements, ghettoising them in a narrow strip of land show that Israel is willing to accommodate the people who were there before Israel was created? No. Yes thyey may have bent over to try and be reasonable, and obviously it has not been very successful, but Israel’s actions are the… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I am curious. Are you a Guardian reading woke trendy? Or a Russian/Chinese/Iranian troll? There is something about your posts, I haven’t figured out yet.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Instead of inventing fanciful and frankly slanderous assumptions I suggest you think holistically about the situation. Engaging brain before responding works equally well here. In essence what I have merely pointed out, and not favouring either side is look at the problem as a whole. If the Israelis embark on a system of apartheid, which they have done especially since 1967, if not before, then what they are doing is fuellng the grievances. While the majority Palestinians may not want to be involved their terrorist leadership use those grievances to give themselves justification. And since they rule Gaza with murderous… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Nicely diverted, which is often a troll/bot trick. You say you are neutral, yet end up attacking Israel & defending Palestinian terrorism. What are your true colours?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Where have I defended terrorist activity? Go and read what I said and do not make assumptions. There is a justification on both sides for what they each choose to do. Ignoring those factors is why the situation is as it is. The Palesinians are not all Hamas and are equally the victims. Hamas/Hisbollah/Iran etc need to learnt that their actions have consequences, and equally the same applies to Israel. That is all I said and it is in fact a political issue. Taking one sides’ actions out of context and ignoring the wider situation and the underlying causes does… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So again, you start neutral & end up attacking Israel. What are your views on Russia invading Ukraine? Or how China treats the Uighurs?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

You are clearly not reading everything. Saying that Israel is part of the problem and hence solution is not attacking them. It is attacking, and defending them both. You cannot ignore one side’s atrocities while condemning the other. Israel provides the ammunition of grievance to the Palestinians on their basis of being perpetual victimhood. While Palestinians and Iranians also victimise Israel (see I DO say that) it ends up a perpetual round of tit for tat. After IDF has killed off the current generation of Hamas they will need to rebuild bridges with the very peope who have suffered an… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

You remind me of those who appeased the Nazis in the 1930s. BooHoo, the Versailles Treaty was unfair, they bleated, ignoring the homophobic attack on the SA, or crystal night against the Jews. Should we have been balanced & blamed both sides on that?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

What are you going on about? Have you actually thought through what I said? If you think about it carefully you will see the parallels between what Israel is doing and what the Nazis did! I am not arguing that any side is right or wrong, they are both right and both wrong. All between them are doing is prolonging the same tit-for-tat actions that have been going on since pre-Roman days. Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are very wrong in what they are doing, but so is Israel by their treatment of Palestinians, yes dispossessing a people is not as bad as terrorist… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

You seem to have difficulty telling wrong from right, or good from evil. Israel & Hamas are not the same. Israel is a multi party democracy, where unpopular governments get voted out. Open pride marches & women’s rights in Israel. Israel has been doing deals with Middle East Muslim states for mutual benefit. Hamas could have asked for a deal. They chose an act of evil instead. Try being gay in Gaza, or asking for a free & fair election, or Women’s rights. I note you have said nothing against the Russian invasion of Ukraine, or the genocide of Uighurs… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

When analysing something it is imperative to consider every fact, which avoids making knee jerk assuptions about that situation. It is quite clear that you are failing to consider all the related issues that I was discussing. At NO time have I said that any one side was right or wrong. And nothing can justify what a few Hamas terrorists did in 7th October. However the actions of the IDF since then, with upwards of 10,000 deaths and the destruction of much of Gaza is also not readily justified. Perhaps if you thought about it you would realise. It may… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Nick Cole
John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So you still will not condemn Russia or China. Interesting. Yes, the bombing of Gaza is ghastly, but given the slaughter of 1200 Israelis by Hamas on 7th Oct, it was inevitable. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

This thread is about Israel and Palestine. Could you explain the relevance of your diversionary and off topic comment? Did I say the current situation was avoidable or not inevitable? Understanding the nature of the history is important. Yes Israel had the right of hot pursut and self defence. But in that process they need to act with a sense of proportion. And killing tens of thousands of mostly innocent Palestinians is not going to turn their anger on to the Hamas leaders. It is merely going to embed the sense of injustice and grievance in yet another few generations.… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

“They cut open pregnant women and killed babies still attached. They tortured babies and beheaded children. They tied people up and burned them alive. – these men took their time torturing children. They are the most violent organisation in the history of mankind, and cannot be our future. They cannot be in the world we give our children. I understand the legitimate call of the Palestinian people for independence & a good life- I want that for them too- but what these monsters did was a crime against humanity, nothing to do with statehood.” Sofie Berzon Mackie, kibbutz survivor of… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

They certainly did didn’t they? Heinous crimes. But not an excuse to kill ten times as many in retaliation.

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

If you cannot see the difference, then your moral compass is broken.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

You quite obviously have not read what I have been saying, just interpreting knee jerk out of context assumptions. In fact by your own statement and implied admisssion you condemn Hamas for its atrocities, yet condone those of Israel! They are both as bad as each other. I did not and never have supported any of the excessive atrocities both sides have inflicted. I merely pointed out that the round of tit-for-tat actions continue the cycle that has been going on for the last 2 to 3 thousand years. Both sides in this are at fault and both sides are… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

In 1940-41, the Luftwaffe blitzed London, Coventry, Liverpool, Portsmouth, Plymouth, etc. The RAF made a major effort to get its 4 engined bombers mass produced & returned the favour by bombing Koln, Hamburg, Berlin & Dresden flat. Had you been around then, you would have probably said it was wrong for the RAF to retaliate, that the Nazis were provoked & we should do a deal with the nice Mr Hitler. Israel & Hamas are not the same. Israel is a multi party democracy that respects Women’s & gay rights. Hamas is a brutal death cult. Israel is within its… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I did not argue against any of this. I merely pointed out that the round of tit-for-tats is continuing the dispute. I did not start trying to argue that one side was better than the other. Each side blaming the other for the latest atrocity. However, Israel is not heloing itself in the eyes of the world. And while they had around 1500 deaths/hostages they have inflicted fan order of magnitude worse on Gaza. To maintain the moral high ground, especially as the world has largely moved on from the early 1940s they need to moderate their response – show… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

It is not tit for tat, as the IDF will wipe out Hamas forever. You seem bent on protecting terrorists. Your sort wants to neuter Israel, while leaving Hamas free to rape, torture & murder.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I don’t know what world you are occupying but you keep mis-representing what I and others have said. IDF will not and can not wipe out Hamas forever. That statement does not condone what Hamas did, go and read what I and others have said. Hamas represents an ideology. The current leadership may well be wiped out but what drives it now will remain, and others will pop up in their place. Instead of making ridiculous slanderous misrepresentations of what people say go and read them, which also means taking the time to understand. I have never said anything supporting… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So by your logic, it was an over reaction for US B-29s to flatten Tokyo, Hiroshima & Nagasaki in revenge for Pearl Harbor. You may think you are principled, but all you are doing is aiding & abetting terrorism.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Doin’t be so ridiculous. Ga and read what I said. And by read I mean take it in and think about what I said. Do not jump to a false conclusion without looking at the entirety which reads as a whole and is not a single out of context bullet point I did not and never have said that terrorism was valid. So stop your pointless repetition of that unfounded description. I remind you that all I said was that the round of tit-for-tats and atrocitoes from both sides merely continues that never ending situation. They should both stop fuelling… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

One day, you will realise your virtue signalling is providing comfort to brutal terrorists.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

You really don’t have a clue do you? What virtue signalling or are you just repeating strange word combinations that you take out of context ignoring what has been said. And why shouldn’t people have a reaction to some slight that someone else has imposed? I did not say any of the actions were justified – just pointed out causes and consequences. How on earth is that ‘virtue signalling’? If people ignore causes, merely focussing on the latest atrocity as though it has come out of nowhere then there will never be a solution. You are virtue signalling yourself by… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Nick Cole
John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So the IDF finds Gaza hospitals stuffed full of weapons & still you defend Hamas.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Are you blind or stupid. Get off your stupid equally blibkered horse, I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED HAMAS. I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED HAMAS, I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED HAMAS. In any event one set of armoured vest and a few magazines and an AK47 is NOT stuffed full. That is the ONLY evidence so far provided, BUT I am not disputing that. ALL I said was that Hamas action on oct 7th did not occur in an indeendent vacuum. There were causes and effects NOTHING of which defends or justifies what Hamas did. They have a grievance, yes, any fool can see… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

By calling for a ceasefire, by complaining about IDF activity, you would allow Hamas to survive. Hamas would regroup, rearm & plan its next atrocity. British forces did not stop at the Rhine in 1945 & allow Nazi Germany to continue. Hamas actions on 7th Oct cannot go unpunished. Hamas must be wiped out.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

The means do not justify the actions. What you have completely failed to grasp is that Hamas are using the ideology. Destroying Hamas does not make the ideology nor the perceived or otherwise legitimate grievances of the Palestinians go away. All that will happen is that either Hamas resurrects itself with new even more hard line leaders or it morphs into something with a new name. If the second world war set out to destroy Nazi ideology it failed for example. NOBODY has said that the perpetrators of Oct 7th should go unpunished. The other factor you have also failed… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The Palestinians of Gaza are not innocent. They voted for Hamas. They agreed with Hamas. They supported Hamas. They kept the secret of the preparations for 7th Oct. They joined Hamas to attack Israel in a brutal terrorist atrocity. Israel keeps finding weapons & terrorist tunnels, in & near hospitals in Gaza. Israel has done real damage to Hamas. It would be crazy for Israel to stop now.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Where the hell have I said they were! They were in no different position than we were when Tony Blair decided to go into Iraq. How do you think that downtrodden and controlled people can oust an armed dictatorship, especially one that is funded, supported and encouraged by Iran? Israel needs to finish the job, but that does not mean obliterating Gaza and creating yet more martyrs and after that it has a hugely expensive responsibility for rebuilding. The IDF is not entitled to destroy civil infrastructure bystanders, hospitals schools etc. We did not do the same in Afghanistan, but… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Nick Cole
John Hartley
John Hartley
4 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

There is no such thing as a “nice” war. For example, Operation Gomorrah the 1943 fire bombing of Hamburg that killed 30,000. As U-boats had nearly starved Britain, attacking the German ports that built & supported the U-boats was reasonable under the circumstances.
For now, I hope Hamas can keep to the Qatar deal & release the hostages. This plus the temporary ceasefire, may become permanent if Israel is happy with the outcome.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
4 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Yes. the difference is that WW2 was a full state on state conflict and all (the vast majority) citizens were actively playing a part. In Gaza it is only the terrorist ‘few’ supported if not encouraged by external states. It isn’t possible to make an omelette without breaking an egg. It is the sense of proportion that is significant in this case and while indiscriminate damage as Dresden etc was an inevitaboe consequence of the technology at the time, it is different nowadays. Without defending Hamas it seems that the tunnels at that hospital so far do not appear significant.… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
4 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Israel says it found a Hamas pick up truck, full of RPGs, grenades & AKs, parked right next to a hospital. So that puts Israel in a dilemma. If they leave it, those weapons could attack Israelis. If they attack it, they will be denounced for striking right next to a hospital. Anyway, I hope we can both wish for Hamas to agree & stick to, this proposed Qatar ceasefire where hostages are safely released. Maybe, just maybe, it might bring this conflict to an end. Fingers crossed.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
4 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

One truck and a few items does not a major installation make! It seems that the evidence of such is eluding the IDF. It doesn’t mean there wasn’t any of course, especially if Hamas used the time to move things so as to cause embarrassment! And vehicles from and within a combat zone, which may well have been transporting injured people is not going to be unusual, especially if they weren’t able to remove them after delivery of casualty. I don’t suppose Hamas has the luxury of unarmed field ambulances! Perhaps in the hope of avoiding going through all the… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
4 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So you claim to be neutral, but in reality you believe everything Hamas says, while ignoring everything Israel says.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
4 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Where on earth do you get your assumptions from? You are clearly a conspiracy theory fan, believing things in your own head if they support your predefined idea. Since when did I believe everything.? What I did was to look at the actual evidence. That is essential in fact-checking and weighing up the various pros and cons, which also includes all the history not just that from the last 4 weeks or so. If you jump to conclusions you ignre pertinent factors which gets in the way of any intelligent debate. The first rule in any conflict is to know… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Nick Cole
John Hartley
John Hartley
4 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Who exactly was being persecuted on 7th October? Again your language gives you away.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
4 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Your complete inability to rationalise any statement and compete failure to think means you are contributing nothing to the debate. Displaying as you do the typical short term memory and lack of analytical capability of most polticians and bean counters. Your inability to comprehend and reflect on history is astounding. This situation did not start on 7th October but was an unacceptable continuation and escalation of the long standing problems from 1948 if not before. 7th October did not happen in a vacuum. When people feel they have been pushed up against the wall with no recourse what do you… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
4 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The situation that Gaza finds itself in now, started on 7th October. As I said in my first reply to you, Israel has previous history of doing mutually beneficial deals with Islamic Middle East Nations able to grasp such chances. Hamas could have reached out to Israel for a deal. They chose violence so awful, that the Australian Shadow Defence Minister broke down on TV, when he recalled the footage he had been shown. Israeli female soldiers hiding under a table being ruthlessly shot. A father trying to defend his two small sons. Hamas threw a grenade at them, then… Read more »

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I’m loving this. Nice work there John.

John Hartley
John Hartley
4 months ago
Reply to  Rob

Well, how can I stand buy & watch the useful fools defend Hamas. I saw the news report of a released hostage. This 12 year old boy was taken to Gaza, where “innocent Palestinians” came out of their houses to beat him. Then Hamas made him watch videos of Hamas committing terrorist murders “on repeat”.

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

He is a troll.

AntB
AntB
4 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Nick Cole’s comments are balanced imo. Is there a necessity to take sides? Simpler minds see things in black and white, it would seem.

John Hartley
John Hartley
4 months ago
Reply to  AntB

If you cannot tell good from evil, then your moral compass is broken.

Tim Edwards
Tim Edwards
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Here is the thing to ask yourself.
remember Gaza was under Egyptian and the West Bank (Judea) was under Jordanian occupation and oppression under 1967.
why was the PLO formed in 1964 with the aim of getting rid of the Jewish state rather than freeing themselves from Jordan’s and Egyptian oppression?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Tim Edwards

Where have I argued anything contrary to that? It is a problem going back thousands of years.

Tim Edwards
Tim Edwards
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

My comment was trying to get you to think about the fact that the actions of Israel and the blockade against Gaza is in response to the violence of the Palestinians and the fact that the Palestinians have never accepted the nation of Israel. Because they are seen as worse than infidels, they are jews. It’s an issue of the Muslim religion. Thats why the Palestinians weren’t concerned with overthrowing their oppressors in Gaza and West Bank when it was Egypt and Jordan oppressing them. So in short HAMAS (whos charter calls for the genocide of the jews) didn’t need… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Tim Edwards

Did I say anything to the contrary? The history of the area has been the same for thousands of years. Continual rounds of barbaric tit for tats. What I did say was that Israel’s actions feed the terrorists, and the terrorists actions feed the Israelis. While Hamas action on 7th October was unjustified and deplorable, the weight of destruction and death by the Israelis is an order of magnitude worse. The difficulty they have is that Hamas has deliberately hidden its infrastructure under and alongside sensitive civil buildings. And not to forget that Hamas is driven by ideology, which cannot… Read more »

Tim Edwards
Tim Edwards
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

yeah you did. You said this. “While Hamas etc have committed particularly barbaric actions, they are fuelled by the actions of Israel.” And my comment was just merely pointing out that as long as the state of Israel has existed they haven’t needed any other excuse to do what they do. ie Palestinian’s attitudes towards the state of Israel is the same today as it was in 1948. They want them gone and don’t want to negotiate. And that is the majority of Palestinians who hold that view. Israel for it part up until the last decade or so has… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Tim Edwards

You do point out the antipathy towards Israel by the surrounding states. I never denied that. And yes none of them want Israel to exist. But therein lies the problem. How do we persuade those states to leave Israel alone? What right did any of us have to impose a solution on an unwilling set of states? If Israel didn’t exist prior to 1948, they were already a diaspora, and why should those other states accept the imposition without complaint? The actions of an Israel suffering permanent victimhood pushing Palestinians out of their existing lands has fuelled the latest crisis… Read more »

Tim Edwards
Tim Edwards
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I don’t actually disagree with much of what you have said. I think what explains alot of Israel’s reactions in this conflicts is basically why the modern state of Israel exists today. The Israeli’s see Jewish blood as more valuable than Arab or anyones else’s blood. This has come about because there are so few Jews. 70% of all Jews were eradicated during the Holocaust, then after that 750,000 Jews were push out of Arabs states. Then then before WW2 also we have the Pogrom of the Jews in Russia and persecution in Europe in the late 19th/ early 20th… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Tim Edwards

I know a very difficult situation. Until both sides can reconcile their differences it is never going to end. It doesn’t help that the anti-Israel Islamic world exists as a cult and its leaders brainwash their public, and refuse to update their mediaeval thinking.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Tim Edwards

Yes that is the definition of tit-for-tat. You have not interpreted what I said except to take the whole out of context and apply it to a single action. Hamas actions deplorable as they were did not come out of a vacuum. I did not ever say Hamas were justified in what they did, though they are justified in complaining about the historic actions of Israel. Because of that they have taken the flawed and incorrect view that they have no other choice. Hamas relinquished the moral high ground on October 7th, but then IDF also make the same mistake… Read more »

Expat
Expat
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Trying frame this a recent conflict under a century old is wrong, its the mistake the US made in Iraq not understand the Shai/Sunni dynamic. Is not about borders its religious, if it was about borders then you’d see much more support for the Kurds having a homeland. And in the West its political with the left still looking on the Jews as capitalist and controlling wealth, again using the Kurds as an example there’s zero support from the left for Kurdish homelands, go figure. I guess the biggest irony is the National Socialists in Germany who hated Jewish wealth… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Expat

Quite right. The issue is far more complex and embedded than most observers state it is also far too easy to jump on the latest atrocity as though it happened in a baseless fit of temper in a vacuum or of previous benign relationships. And is a very strong argument for removing religion and religous cults from all politics. Until they all learn to live with each other there will be no end to this. It isn’t just a century but a couple of millenia, well BCE, pre Roman even. As with most things resolving the symptoms fails to address… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Expat

I never did say it was less than a century old. I pointed out that it has been going on for 3,000 years or so. Two wrings do not make a right.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Ohh I think in this case we are looking at so many wrongs stacked up on all sides just in the last century.. ( including us in Europeans tbh), without going into history. I think the only hope really is if somehow the extremist religious nut cases can be removed to allow a slow heal….but the sad truth is the Islamists are never going away and as long as their are Islamists, the really radical Zionist movement will be empowered…but at least the radical Zionist element can be voted out..

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

That is why Netanhayu got back in then! An intractable problem.

AlexS
AlexS
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

So you are forgetting that Fatah does the same – for example pays families for every terrorist act, even those done by the Hamas ?
What were the sermons by mosques in PA area after 07 October?

Showing once more the dismal state of the western media no one asked the Palestinian Authority if it will pay the families of the 07 October massacre authors.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  AlexS

No I am not forgetting. What I was doing was looking at the longer history and actions of both sides. It is too easy to take a simplistic here and now view but the context of these conflicts goes back many centuries. I did not suggest that Israel doesn’t have a right to self-defence or hot pursuit. What I pointed out was that the dispossesion and apartheid policies of the Israelis creates the very grievances that allow Hamas and others to fester and grow. If Israel wants to peacefully co-exist it has to stop giving fuel to those grievances.

Last edited 5 months ago by Nick Cole
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I think you are forgetting that Isreal was willing to do-exist…Isreal was perfectly willing to agree to partition and a 2 state solution…when you consider Jordan was part of the Palestinian mandate essential the Arab world was getting over 80% of the land…Isreal 20% but the Arab states and Arab populations view was that the Israel state could have 0% as all of historic Palestine had to be Muslim. They attack Israel and never stopped…the place Israel is in now is because of that, they tried for a two state solution for a long time….now they have given up…the reality… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No I am not forgetting. Can you read what I have written and see where I have said that Hamas has ever been justified? All I did was point out the various factors behind the actions. Failing to understand the perspectives of all participants gets in the way of devising a solution. In any conflict, business or military it is of fundamental and critical importance to understand the enemy, their motivations and objectives. Knee jerk responses merely continue the conflict with no resolution. Hamas invited the response we have seen, but Israel has created the conditions for Hamas to feel… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

The problem Nick is I’m not sure how you get a peaceful solution, I’m a firm believer in the two state solution, the problem is the Zionist have show they would compromise….fatah have come to the point they will compromise..but Hamas and Hezbollah simply have no compromise in the, they don’t call for freedom for Gaza and the West Bank..they call for the destruction of Israel…they have not other goal, it’s anthem to them, everyone can call for peace, Israel could remove all the settlers and forces from the West Bank as they tried with Gaza, but it would make… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I know, and that is the problem. A war will not provide the solution as all the old enmities will keep coming back to haunt. All a war, destruction, merely defers similar acton to a laer date. Religion is at the heart of it and the Islamic cults that some nations follow are the ones failing to modernise. As always it is state or cult leaders who create wars and the ordinary people who pay the price.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

yes, you can actually see the difference between a religious driven group and a secular, freedom driven group in Palestine. Hamas and Fatah the story of religious vs secular freedom fighters…Isreal could and should come to terms with fatah.Infact I think it was a huge strategic mistake by Israel to not take the olive branch in the West Bank that fatah renouncing violence was, they should have removed all the settlers and their military then fully support a Palestinian state in the West Bank including investing in it to make it well off..a Palestinian state that worked was independent of… Read more »

Stc
Stc
5 months ago

We have had a Jewish community in the UK since at least the beginning of the 20th century. This is what happens when you have an open borders policy. MSM claim there is 250000 Palestinians living in this country. What were the Home office and the immigration service thinking when they presumably allowed them into this country, knowing their feelings towards the Jewish community ? No common sense whatsoever. We almost ought to allow 100 k armed Russians and similar Ukrainians and let them fight it out on our soil ! What’s the point in spending 45 billion or so… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  Stc

It was Blair in 1997 who decided to scrap border checks, in the hope the immigrants would vote Labour. Twenty+ years on, we can see that all it did was trash the pay & conditions of the working class, while importing other people’s wars to the UK.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Ah, bravo

pete
pete
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Blair , Cameron and May are all responsible for destabilizing parts of the world and increasing terrorism . Either deluded or perhaps richer for their actions !

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  pete

Yes. Richer no doubt. I was on a plane to Glasgow once with Cameron and his 6 bodyguards after he had left no. 10. Seriously wanted to give him an earful. This is the guy that said we British can learn a lot on how to behave from muslims, we need “cultural enrichment.” Seriously demented stuff.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Yup!

AlexS
AlexS
5 months ago
Reply to  Stc

The problem is much more vast than just UK , it is pretty much in all Western Europe. Western Europe risks being a giant future Lebanon.

This will change also all the political dynamics in Europe and USA . The Left will split and the Right will be stronger.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  AlexS

And the Right will become increasingly dictatorial.

AntB
AntB
4 months ago
Reply to  AlexS

Rock on Tommy Robinson, eh?

Jon
Jon
5 months ago
Reply to  Stc

We have had a Jewish community in the UK since at least the beginning of the 20th century.

Last Thursday I was in the City of London and walked past Bevis Marks synagogue. Opened in 1701, it was built alongside the Wren churches and anecdotally added to its fabric an oak beam from a Royal Navy ship, a present from Queen Anne. The synagogue has held regular services ever since.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jon
Simon
Simon
5 months ago
Reply to  Jon

I think Oliver Cromwell invited the Jews back if I remember correctly, after they were expelled twice before

DH
DH
5 months ago
Reply to  Jon

Cool 😎. Didn’t realise that, ta.
👍

DH
DH
5 months ago
Reply to  DH

I like this Forum. Informational, Educational, both satisfying and feckin maddening, o aye and knowledgeable. 🤔.
👍 All the same… Leave the Cenataph alone!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago
Reply to  Stc

There has been a Jewish community for centuries!

PeterS
PeterS
5 months ago

There is no solution to the problem of Israel/Palestine. There never has been. Once, entirely understandably, the international community,UN, accepted the existence of a Jewish homeland in territory which for 1800 years had had only a tiny community of Jews until Zionist migration began in the late nineteenth century, a conflict between two competing identities, exacerbated by religious intolerance,, became inevitable. The two state solution could only have worked prior to 1948, when Israeli numbers were small and a defined homeland for them with approved and protected borders might have been accepted by the wider population. After the wars of… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  PeterS

As Denis Healey said, “If you are in a hole, stop digging”. Time to go back to the pre-Blair border checks. Also, adopt the anti-Islamofascist measures being adopted by other European Nations.

PeterS
PeterS
5 months ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Europe was under threat from Islamic powers for over 1000 years, with large parts of Spain occupied until the 15th century reconquista and much of the Balkans occupied. Only after the 1683 failure of the siege of Vienna did the threat begin to recede. Even then, slave raids by north African pirates continued until the early 19th century. Industrialization and the accompanying population growth in Europe shifted the balance decisively and large parts of the Islamic world were conquered and colonized by Europeans. Nowhere did a mutual tolerance between Christian and Muslim populations develop. As Western Christianity has gradually morphed… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
5 months ago
Reply to  PeterS

Macron is trying to get a new immigration bill passed in France. He may not have the votes. It has some interesting ideas in it. It would make residency easier for useful migrants who have needed skills. It would make it easier to deport failed migrants. It would remove welfare from those who lose their case to stay. It has provision to screen undocumented migrants to see if they are a danger.

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
5 months ago

This situation is a product of the failure of so called multiculturalism and a higher eduction system dominated by elites of the Left and proponents of Woke.
Why there is any surprise at this outcome is an indication of the ignorance of consequences.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago
Reply to  Lazerbenabba

Wot you said 👍

Tom
Tom
5 months ago

The 21st century… an age that frankly, I hate and loathe. All those people on the streets of major cities, being cajoled and led by hamas supporters. Free Palestine… so what Palestine would that be then? There is no such place as Palestine. When the Romans put down the ‘Jewish’ revolt around AD100, they changed the name of Judea to Palestini, in an attempt to erase the people, and their home from History. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the British along with their French counterparts, drew a few lines on a huge map of the middle east. It… Read more »

Expat
Expat
5 months ago
Reply to  Tom

But the IRA would openly fund raise in cities like New York in the US.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
5 months ago

Google “Muhammad Qassem Sawalha” a Hamas leader who has evaded Israel’s security and came to live in London. He is one of the agitators who stirs up these protests.

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
5 months ago

Aye about time we got some semblance of reality from the articles published by guest contributors . Totally agree with this one a well written and balanced article I wholeheartedly agree with 👍🏻

The author is defo a Scot 4sure as only a Scotsman could come away with this level of sane thinking. 😎 bravo 👏🏻

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇬🇧

Frank62
Frank62
5 months ago

I support both Palestinian & Israeli rights to security & dignity as nations. I also oppose atrocities & excessive force by both of them.

Withdrawing so suddenly from Afghanistan was a disgraceful blunder that handed victory to the Taliban. What a betrayal.

Expat
Expat
5 months ago

A free Palestine under the sponsorship of Iran/Hamas is perhaps the biggest oxymoron I heard in a while.

Kai
Kai
5 months ago

Who in gods name let these people into our country, and on what grounds? We should only be taking the worlds brighest and best. I really don’t understand how these people can just rock up here.

DH
DH
5 months ago
Reply to  Kai

Ha, the politic Clowns 🤡! God help us, what else there 😶🤐😴

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  Kai

It’s by design to replace you. And as the Irish people learned in the last week or so, the Somalian arriving on the beach in Dublin has THE SAME sovereign rights as native born Irish people no matter how many generations they’ve lived in Ireland. It’s real, it’s a worldwide anti-white, socialist revolution and the Irish have woken up to this fact. now we need Britain to wake up from their naive slumber.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
5 months ago

While Hamas are probably largely Palestinian, it is unreasonable to equate all Palestinians as Hamas. This creates a major problem for the IDF as to how they identify legitimate military targets compared to normal civilians especially as many military facilities are built under civil infrastructure buildings. Support for Palestinian victims is not support for Hamas, who deserve everything they get. Sadly it is the innocent civilian victims now an order of magnitude greater than the Israeli ones who are bearing the brunt of the reprisals.

Rob N
Rob N
5 months ago

This is a simplistic view of the terrorist threat. It lumps many different groups together when in fact they are very different, with different aims, objectives snd methods. The notion that the West would persist with the ‘Vietnam’ of Afghanistan is simply untenable. The number one lesson we should lave learnt over centuries of conflict is do not invade Afghanistan. Do strikes if needed to take out camps etc but boots on the ground is not the answer. We have to fight smart and not use a blunt instrument when a small sharp knife is needed. Also I do not… Read more »

ChrisLondon
ChrisLondon
5 months ago
Reply to  Rob N

I think you are wrong about Afghanistan. The West had set up a situation it could have maintained indefinitely with almost all the ongoing casualties being Afghan. We were watching generational change under way. They had gone in less than 20yrs from a society with little higher education and none at any level for girls to one where 250k were in higher education, 50k women. The difference to say post Nazi Germany was we had not killed off the previous generation. To tear down the Nazis we killed 10m Germans weighted towards men willing to fight for them, and left… Read more »

Rob N
Rob N
5 months ago
Reply to  ChrisLondon

If there was generational change why did the people of Afghanistan just fold when the US pulled out? If they wanted a changed country… The fact was that the West was propping up an unpopular government that had little impact over large areas of the country. I think the lesson is that propping up other peoples governments does not work, you need the majority of the country supporting the government and willing to FIGHT for this improved country. Also you talk of a Western vision of Afghanistan assuming it is obvious that the people would want democracy, female education etc….… Read more »

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
5 months ago

Whatever aspects I agree with in this article it is pretty despicable of the author to suggest multiple times that those demonstrating in these marches are association supporters of Hamas that is unacceptable on his part when there is no evidence that all but a small minority do so. Indeed many in that March today wore poppies hardly something pro Hamas individuals would do. Equally I feel somewhat queasy over the fawning attitude of the author towards Israel and in particular their present Govt and deeply unedifying leader which until recently had thousands of Israelis demonstrating on the streets against… Read more »

ChrisLondon
ChrisLondon
5 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

I think he is right to see support of these marches as support for terror and anti-semitism. Let us look at an analogous situation. Say in WW2 if the holocaust had been public knowledge and ongoing. You join a march against the allied bombing campaign. Only that. Are you being pro-Nazi? I would say yes.

A ‘peace’ march would at the least be calling for the release of the hostages. An action Hamas could take on its own and which would almost certainly stop the bombing.

Tom
Tom
5 months ago

To be honest, I am struggling with the terms Palestine, and Palestinians.
Palestine simply does not exist, nor is there a ‘tribe’ called Palestinians.

PEOPLE have livid in these places for a long, long time. Those people are Arabs. Muslim Arabs, Jewish Arabs, and all manner of others

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 months ago

Time to be practical. Regardless of who is marching and for what, the Met can only police these marches by weakening forces in the regions and by distorting normal work. Football matches need policing; Christmas shoppers need to be kept safe; criminals need to be caught. The pro-Palestine marchers have made their point but need reminding that the rest of the country has rights too; to a safe and peaceful life. Further marches would give the game away….that they are being selfish and it looks like are intent on forcing political change. They should go home and buy their Christmas… Read more »

Matt C
Matt C
5 months ago

Spearheaded by the Guardian’s unequivocal support of Hamas, and the BBC glossing over misreporting. For a fine example of the latter, consider that the BBC reported on scene declared that he “cannot imagine any other explanation” other than that Ahli Arab hospital was hit by an Israeli bomb; meanwhile in response to IDF video of weapons captured in Shifa hospital, the BBC commentator strove mightily to offer the excuse that they were used by the hospital’s security department.

Stc
Stc
4 months ago

You allow open borders and we will get two types of terrorists, ones that come here with evil intent and those who become disgruntled for reasons not necessarily in our control ie the current conflict. To demonstrate how bad things are: as far back as the 1980s MI5 had a spy in the immigration dept. Now I do not know if they thought individuals in the dept were helping terrorists or just thought it was their ” duty” to allow as many in as possible, no matter what. I think we can agree it’s much worse now. I do feel… Read more »

Rob
Rob
4 months ago

The UK is done for. I served in RN for 9 years, Falklands the whole bit. Moved to the States and gradually watched from afar as my people began their self loathing and shame over Empire, wringing their hands and saying “we aren’t as good as we thought we were, we were terrible people, surely someone else can do it better? Surely we can have others from distant lands lead us?” Complete lack of faith and belief in themselves complete capitulation of rock solid beliefs and values, and rejection of British exceptionalism (not a dirty word) that the British had.… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Rob