A Tory Baroness has argued for the Government to provide the Royal Navy with more frigates as hull numbers could drop down to seven as vessels leave service.
This comes as analysis from expert commentator NavyLookout reveals that the frigate fleet could drop to its lowest ever level in modern times.
Baroness Neville-Jones said:
“The UK has an especially strong interest in holding the western alliance together. Over the years we have put a lot of eggs in that basket, and a close relationship with the US, as part of the wider Atlantic community, is part of the fabric of our own polity. No longer being in the EU means we are simultaneously less influential and more vulnerable to the effects of transatlantic disagreement and breaches of trust. My conclusion is that devoting resources to diplomacy in Washington is top of the list of priorities, since failure of the alliance will not just destroy our ability to deal with all the other wider threats that we confront in the Middle East and China; we will face the likelihood of a wider war in our continent.
Secondly, I turn to China. The integrated review recognised the challenge that China poses militarily, politically and economically, and the Conservative Government made an important and constructive move in AUKUS, which helps join the Atlantic and Pacific worlds and increases the credibility of a European contribution to the political and military scene in the Asia-Pacific. I belong to those who believe that we should try to contribute to that part of the world. I hope that, in conducting the defence review, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, in whom I have great confidence, is able to build on AUKUS. There is no doubt that, to keep the Americans with us, Europeans must spend more on defence, especially on the security of our own continent. I am not suggesting that the Indo-Pacific has any real priority. We cannot credibly ask the Americans to take our security more seriously than we do.
I think it is time for the UK to respond to the changing global balance of power by giving the Royal Navy a greater role in, and a greater reach of, our defence diplomacy—more ships, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord West, particularly frigates. It is also time that we had a China strategy that joins up our political, economic and military objectives. It is something that we do not have and badly need. I do not believe in keeping countries guessing; that is dangerous. We did not keep the Russians guessing about our terms during the Cold War and we should not do so with the Chinese. We need to say what we mean to them.”
Later in the discussion, Lord Coaker, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, stated:
“I thank my noble friend for his important question. Whether it is aircraft carriers and planes, the number of soldiers, technology or other capabilities, you have to have the capability you need to meet the threat that you face. My noble friend is right to point that out.
That is the fundamental principle that underlies the review of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and why he will be working closely with others. I say to all noble Lords that it is an open review and anyone is welcome to contribute to it.”
For more on frigate numbers, let us direct you to the wonderful NavyLookout’s article on Britain’s future frigate numbers.
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RN needs more ships state story Baroness.
Well….after 14 years of Tory incompetence and woeful record on defence when the Tories cut the RN (and other forces) to the bone, the only answer can be.
You should have built and ordered more ships when you were in power Baroness. No point trying to make out the state of the armed forces is anything but the Tory party’s fault.
To be totally fair the ball was kicked around a lot in the 1990’s when the design should have been finalised and given a budget line – it wasn’t.
1SL Lord West thought he had cracked it by moving therefore budget from T45 to T26…..wasn’t to be and fell victim to Osbourne’s axe….looking for something cheaper.
Doris, who was generally good for defence, did actually order batch T26B1 and T31. Rishi announced the order for T26B2.
OK everything 10+ years too late….
Don’t forget west as 1SL presided over one of the biggest cuts to RN. Not a whimper then. Last year West was spouting of about of about tory cuts. Funny he has gone quiet now.
Let’s see what this lot cut. I think we are all in for bad news.
I agree not a good position to be in.
cutting 3 x type 23 , which were at that point quite new, that was a daft decision
Boris was PM for the the T31 deal, but the disasterous heap of steaming dodahs that was the Type 26 Batch 1 contract was teed up under Cameron/Osborne and signed under May’s watch. Not that she was watching, leaving Michael Fallon in charge as a Cameron hangover. A glance in his direction would have shown how bad Fallon was in so many ways.
A few T31B2 ordered now to bolster RN numbers should be doable even sensible.
Exactly, where were her comments last month when her party was in power.
The same place as Lord West’s now.
Yes in 2010 Camerons government scrapped the small aircraft carriers and the entire Harrier fleet. It left the RN with no or very little air cover. The Americans were astonished that the Harriers gone and sold of too the USMC.
Blair scrapped the carriers and harriers
I thought the UK Defence and Security review, released by the then conservative/lib-dem government on 19th October 2010, scrapped the ‘carriers and harriers’?
Correct
Incorrect
It was labour that got rid of our carriers and harriers early and other rapid cuts under Blair so you can’t blame the tories for everything
https://www.key.aero/article/ex-british-harrier-jets-head-be-scrapped-after-11-years-boneyard#:~:text=After%20the%20RAF%2FRoyal%20Navy,was%20disbanded%20in%20February%202011.
BBC News – Former Portsmouth-based aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious sold for scrap
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-37162839
Incorrect
It was Labour that scraped the Sea Harriers in 2006, the GR3’s(RAF), went in 2010!
So you don’t think the roughly £38 BILLION overspend in the Labour MoD pre-2010, that despite all that overspending failed to produce replacements for various projects and directly lead to the massive cuts of the Cameron era, played a role in the current issue?
No point trying to make out that neither major party has been good for defence since the 90s at least.
She wakes up too late… I suspect that RN will have to lease ships from other nations. Maybe Italians they have the biggest frigate force in Europe with the fake OPV the PPA. RN will have probably 6-7 frigates at maximum for a period before T26, 31 start to arrive and both are with a delay already.. The once mighty RN reduced to one digit frigate force and probably 3 operational. This is also the result of the journalist profession extraordinary bias to just some subjects that is is the consequence of now they coming from universities. A big narrowing… Read more »
They seriously need to speed up the T26 if and where they can and help get T31 going if it’s slowed and order a few more.
unfortunately the frigates had to be ordered in 2010 to replace the T23 in a timely way..no way to speed up to replace those lost years.
I think T26 and T31 builds are progressing as fast as they can. If the RN is headed for a shortfall in ASW capability I think it needs to xfer the TS arrays to the best of the GP T23 frigates. A practical way to increase frigate hull numbers consistent with strategic direction would be to decide on the Kingsberg Vanguard as the T32 choice, get half a dozen built asap wherever you can and build more Merlins.
Theres only Iron Duke and Lancaster left, and Lancaster may have to retire soon as well. The Vanguard is being looked at for Mine Motherships its not a T32 candidate, plus T32/Addtional frigates is probably in the bin.
Agree its design is optimised as mine mothership, which I believe will be funded as data Sterling Castle trials is informing requirements. Kongsberg describe the Vanguard as a multirole ship for ‘territorial surveillance and protection’. If memory serves I recall the same phrase being used in relation to T32 roles. The sales graphics don’t mention size but show a helo landing deck, cannister missile launchers and what looks like a medium calibre gun. Certainly it does not look like an escort let alone an ASW frigate but T32 looks unlikely to be funded, MCM mothership is needed; Vanguard has a… Read more »
Wish we could do something like the PPAs…
Make the River 2 replacement be a part frigate with CAMM and FFBNW NSM would be an excellent plan.
I think we’ll need a lot more ASW frigates, at least with basic hull sonar. Just 8 ASW & T45 & 31s have little or no sonar. We have precious few ASW Merlins & Wildcat has little asw capability beyond dropping ASW torpedos at a contact something else has detected & tracked. The RN has always since WW2 been a major part of ASW in the N Atlantic, but we’re effectively down to just 7 ASW T23s.
As I suggested elsewhere (Navylookout), I think the RN should look negotiate a 10 year lease for 5 to 8 of the early retired LCS vessels from the USN. Some of the retired LCS are less than 5 years old and can be fit them with the ASW package (Thales CAPTAS-4 Towed array system used on the Type 23), Variable depth Sonar buoys, Wildcat helicopters and the RN new unmanned submarine hunting drones (Remus). though not perfect (as capable as Type 23) for the ASW role, this leasing arrangement would provide the RN with hulls for taskings in home waters… Read more »
The LCS are a mess and they already scrapped rhe ASW module. How could we within the next 4 years modify and train crews for them while struggling to train crews for the upcoming frigates.
Aren’t they also made of aluminium? Not sure how survivable that would bevin a fighty sense? And they’ve had issues with their gears, engines and transmissions? Would you want to pay for that?
You are dreaming.
No they cannot be fitted with a CAPTAS unless they can make ti fit, they had a propose build sonar in a module but failed and the general noise of those ships also did not made a worthwhile investment.
Good to know the noble Lords and Ladies are on the ball
Sorry, i dont mean to be disrespectful to history and tradition and all that but the pomposity of their speech gets right up my goat!
Yeh, I was being sarcastic of course. Bad habit I’m struggling to correct. My grandmother used to say ‘I’ll go to the foot of our stairs’, but I don’t know that would be recognised by many these days. Translates roughly as ‘you don’t say’ 🙂
We know the RN needs more frigates , more destroyers and subs too but will those holding the purse strings listen to the ever louder calls for more defence spending. In my view we should concentrate more if our resources on the Navy and keep the army and RAF at home for home defence . We can’t do it all anymore . With regard to subs , half a dozen cheaper diesel boats of the Gotland type from Sweden would be perfect for home waters and allow the nuclear fleet to go further afield and act as carrier escorts .… Read more »
Is anyone in high places actually listening to these cries for more ships?! And, are they ready to act on it? Build a few more T31s and why not get BAE to build 1/2 doz Leander light frigates if design is ready to go? And what about any Euro or Japanese naval ship build partnering? Might need some extra helicopters too? Are people asleep with all this?
BAE is booked up for the next decade with T26, theres no room for them to build other frigates.
Seek other options, new partnerships, block builds, weren’t Ferguson’s are crying out for more work too?..LOL.
HMG always 🌛
Unfortunately, we are were we are. The Baroness should have started the conversation by apologising for 14 years of hugely damaging cuts under the Conservatives. That being said, all we can now do is start the rebuilding process by putting the financial support in place as part of SDSR2025. My issue is we have dropped so far below the minimum levels ( never should have dropped below 30 Frigates and Destroyers), that it seems beyond the ability of likely allocated funding to put things right. What’s the best we can hop for, 24 total?? We definitely need a further batch… Read more »
24 by c 2035+ was the ambition/(cynical?)promise of the Tory goverment. 6 T45, 8 T26, 5 T31 & 5 T32, though the latter may not be affordable & were a pipe dream. By the early/mid 2030s we’ll be also getting ready to start replacing the T45s with T83s, so funds will be considerable committed to that. We desperately need more escorts though. Even if we get 24-30, it is such a small fleet that we can’t really afford to have any lacking at least basic all round capability. Finding the funding is a huge problem with government debt so high… Read more »
By 2035 all the T23s will be for the scrap heap, if any make it that far.
This “can’t build anymore” I think needs to be replaced with some creativity, find other yards, build partnerships, maybe do something happen that otherwise mayn’t have been done before and in shorter time frames. For smaller ships something should be doable acorss multiple shipyards. If not the Leander design an update of the 100m Costal frigate design or as SB and others suggested order a patrol/asw variant of the Vanguard, which might help sweeten a Norwegian T26 deal. And maybe some more helo’s are needed. Should he “Action stations” time for the decision makers!
The T23 lifex strategy is unravelling. If Northumberland proves to be beyond economic repair we might struggle for a period with ASW frigate numbers depending on T26 deliveries. Is it feasible to convert a GP frigate to ASW? That 6th batch 2 River with a telescopic hangar would have been handy?
Hi Paul, In answer to your first question the simple answer is yes. The T31 is based on a design that is up to NATO ASW standards apparently. However, the T26 is streets ahead of it especially in terms of radiated noise. So you would have some choices to make. The quickest way to get some more ASW platforms into service would be to fit the T31 with sonar and a ASW helo. Of course, we are also short of Merlin ASW helicopters, but that is another whole issue. If you want a mid-range standard of ASW frigate you may… Read more »
Lancaster may retire soon as well so the only candidate for a Tail is Iron Duke and wed be down to 7 T23 ASW total
Thanks. In fact it was your last paragraph I had in mind, buts it’s reassuring to know T31 could also be used. ASW capability is a key capability and one of our major contributions to NATO. Presence / constabulary / humanitarian work can be done by other types of vessel.
CR,
Agree w/ your assessment. Additionally, isn’t a dipping sonar available for Wildcat (per SK)? Further, hasn’t BAES already publicly announced the capability/intent to increase the rate of T-26 production? Would apparently be an intuitive step to order a third batch of T-26, at a favorable price from BAES, to increase the escort fleet and maintain the production schedule until T-83 production begins. 🤔
K)
Any naval ship funding is going towards, MRSS, MCM motherships and T83, Maybe the Wildcats could get ASW gear but would be a huge investment
RN will not modify Wildcats for ASW.
Figured not but out of curiosity why
Hi Hugo,
My understanding is that it is an endurance issue. Wildcat just doesn’t have the on station endurance of Merlin and submarine performance has moved on since Lynx, which did have dipping sonar.
Also I think the good old peace dividend played a major role so likely Merlin was the better candidate for the all singing and dancing ASW capability…
Cheers CR
Hi FormerUSAF, To answer your first question, RN Wildcat does not have dipping sonar fitted. It was fitted to the small number purchased by South Korea if I remember rightly. So can be done. As I say to Hugo below, I think is it an endurance issue, Wildcat just doesn’t have the endurance of Merlin which must be seen as the better option for staying on station to prosecute a contact in the North Atlantic. Or perhaps the RN just decided that the Merlin was better at the ASW role so maxed out on that platform with the limited funds… Read more »
I don’t think anyone would dispute the fact that we need more escorts, but be clear what they’re for- ASW in the North Atlantic is a vital capability, as is providing escorts for CSG, but the old habit of sending isolated frigates out just to demonstrate ‘presence’ isn’t particularly useful- individual frigates aren’t much more survivable than the patrol boats currently being used for that purpose.
Exactly. What with the dearth of news there is some speculation that the T31 program is in trouble. Given the impending shortage of ASW capability I wonder in fact what’s happening is that they are assessing whether the early T31s could be fitted out as ASW frigates.
I doubt it, more like Babcock being inexperienced with Frigates.
I don’t know, having a lone Frigate in the gulf was pretty useful when suddenly there was a need to escort Merchant shipping off Yemen.
A truly sorry state of affairs for a navy that was once the envy of the world.
Agreed
What a pathetic individual. Wait until you have no power, then shout from the sidelines like some childish football hooligan.
My Dear Baroness well done on your assumption of the RN very true . But we are short on everything Manpower in all three services ,Tanks Aircraft ,as well has ships 🙄 and a Lot of it was on your watch do the names MR Cameron and Osborne ring a Bell. Honestly 🙄 🇬🇧
I’m not even going to expand on the contempt I have for her comment, other than Labour are equally responsible.
Lord West…”WHERE ARE YOU???”
Absolutely DM when it comes to blame both party’s has bad each other. For Lord West probably making model ship’s. Very rare when top brass are severing in government of the day speak out always wait till they are no longer in post. But you know this has well of any of the guy’s on this site. 👍
How can a Tory, who were removed from power less than a mont ago, complain that our country does not have sufficient defence capability. How many “Defence Reviews” did they have in the 14 years they were in power? It seems that every 3 or 4 years they reduced our armed forces more and more. What hypocracy.
Yeah is a bit of a joke isn’t it I mean I hate labour but it’s a bit much to try and blame them for what her party did
👍
Ironically, we have an extreme reaction to the non-existent pace of shipbuilding since 97. Once T26 & Type 31 are entering service, we’re commissioning 1.5 major surface ships a year. The US are on just over 3. Any conflict with China would rely on NATO to fill in the escorts or to cover the North Sea/Atlantic. There’s no point in complaining about the past given we have a serious pace of shipbuilding. What needs to happen is that HMG cannot be allowed to stop the continuous pace of shipbuilding. After Type 31, Rosyth has to get follow on orders either… Read more »
“What needs to happen is that HMG cannot be allowed to stop the continuous pace of shipbuilding.”
Yes. This. We can’t allow people to say we won’t build the ships because we don’t have the crews, otherwise the next lot will cut the crews because we didn’t build the ships. Just keep building the ships and try to get the government to agree to remove the numbers cap of the Armed Forces.
No funds for new frigates, hopefully T83 carries over the BAE shipyard but Babcock will have to bid for other work.
I’m not so sure that much extra funding is needed for the purchase of new frigates. At the moment over £1.2bn a year is spent on the procurement of surface ships. If this were averaged out at £350m a year on T31, £550m a year on T26 (assuming one every 18 months), that leaves £300m a year for FSSS, MROSS, Minehunters, etc. We aren’t a million miles away from a long-term high-low escort plus others procurement policy.
Then why haven’t we seen any extra frigate orders and T32 is continually deferred.
First they have to show a requirement. Even if they can, annualization and internal bidding between the services means nothing is announced until it absolutely has to be (or two years after it absolutely had to be). To get continuous shipbuilding at Rosyth, even if Babcock were not delayed, still wouldn’t need a new main contract signed until 2026. Look for a long-lead contract toward the end of next year. Naturally it’s already too late for that to be anything other than T31B2, thereby skipping the design phase.
Or they wont be anything for Babcock, pessimistic i know but its not unheard of.
True and that’s more likely than my suggestion. Chronic procrastination and late requirements cost a lot of money, so although we could be close financially, we probably won’t be.
Talk about stating the bleeding obvious
Yeah she’s on master mind next month. Chosen specialists subject is “stating the blood obvious “
You can have as many warships you want but without the RFA they won’t go far or fight for long. You need tankers at sea not alongside and FSS before 2032 however, more people and fair pay first!!!!!
I wouldn’t have got rid of the type 22s so hastily especially the last of the batch campbelltown etc
Agreed 🇬🇧
She’s right to point this out, but it’s the Tory government that allowed force levels to fall so far, way below minimum levels, amid rising threats.
One has to use the tired but most apt comment ” No sh*t Sherlock!
If “more frigates” are needed, why not some action now to fix it? No need to wait for another review as the gaps are obvious. If can Australia here can make a decision to get 7-11 smaller frigates types why can’t the UK? You’re even building the T31, build some more or something smaller if too big. What about the Saab Babcock light frigate or the Euro Frigate?
I find this to be a very well-crafted speech which, frankly, nails everything it needs to. Firstly, let’s move away from ‘comment-land’ and remember that politicians are politicians and always will be.The state of the Armed Forces is a result of every government taking liabilities. They have to balance a potential threat against a budget that is never going to be enough and expenditure across every other government department. If this was as easy as a one sentence solution ‘buy more frigates’ ‘gun up the OPVs’ etc, then frankly it would have been done. It is far far far more complicated… Read more »