The fate of HMS Westminster, a Type 23 frigate, was a focal point of discussion in a recent Defence Select Committee session.
The deliberations featured Rear Admiral Steve Moorhouse and Admiral Sir Ben Key and shed light on the challenges of maintaining an aging fleet amid transitioning to newer vessels.
During the session, Mark Francois MP raised concerns about the longevity and maintenance of Type 23 frigates, particularly HMS Westminster. He highlighted the extensive time and cost involved in refitting such vessels, questioning the economic viability of refitting HMS Westminster, given its advanced age and condition. Mr. Francois pointed out that “Some of them [Type 23 frigates] will have to serve for 35 years in order to make everything fit, and that is way beyond their service life.”
In response to inquiries about the status of HMS Westminster, Rear Admiral Steve Moorhouse acknowledged the challenges but clarified that “Work continues today with Westminster in preparation for her upkeep. No decisions have been made.”
The discussion also touched on the broader issue of fleet renewal. Admiral Sir Ben Key addressed the balancing act between maintaining operational fleet capabilities and transitioning to newer ships. He noted, “It is going to be a minimum of four years to refit Westminster, we think, but that work is going on at the moment. That takes us to 2027.”
Mr. Francois also expressed frustration at the slow pace of shipbuilding and refitting, suggesting a more efficient approach. He criticised the prolonged refit times, asserting, “Four years to refit a frigate—even by British standards, you could build one from scratch in as much time.”
“There are strong rumours that HMS Westminster will not be refitted, because she is in such a poor condition. She is so old—poor thing—after many years’ loyal service to the Crown that you have written her off, because it is not economical to repair her, so we are down to 16 [escorts] for the next few years.”
Back in September, I reported that Type 23 Frigate HMS Westminster’s refit and future status had sparked queries in the House of Commons. The Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, John Healey, sought clarification on the vessel’s status and the plans for its modernisation.
HMS Westminster played a significant role in Operation Atlantic Thunder 22 in September 2022, where it discharged two Harpoon missiles in collaboration with US forces, leading to the sinking of the decommissioned US frigate, USS Boone.
Regarding the status of HMS Westminster, John Healey asked the Secretary of State for Defence, “To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what the status of HMS Westminster is; and whether his Department has made a decision on modernisation.”
In response, James Cartlidge, the Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, stated, “HMS Westminster remains in Devonport dockyard and is part of a modernisation programme being implemented to all Type 23s that are in upkeep. We do not disclose the fine detail of forward availability forecasts to preserve the operational security of the Fleet.”
Adding to this context, HMS Westminster was recently moved from the Frigate Support Centre to 4 Basin in Devonport. This move, likely for a long-term lay-up, signalled a possible decision on its disposal.
This development followed reports from 2023 suggesting that the ship’s intended two-year refit, started in October 2022 to extend its service until 2028-29, was abandoned. The decision was attributed to prohibitive costs and the deteriorating condition of the vessel.
What do their lordships mean behind ‘not disclosing fine detail’? Is the Type 23 prone to overmuch maintenance ? Does it ‘break’ more easily than it should. Is it a poor design from a maintenance perspective? Was maintainability designed in?
The Type 23’s were only designed for a short lifespan…. They are way past what was originally intended…
I’m assuming that other T23s will, as they age, suffer from similar issues. Losing one T23 might be a misfortune but to lose many might be a problem as the T26 & T31 replacements are a little way off. It would be excellent if a technical solution were possible which might extend the life of these vessels.
I thought you were going to say “to lose many looks like carelessness”. Which would not be too far from the mark, where our government is concerned. Similar age Ticonderosa and, even more aptly, Arleigh Burkes are going strong due to a legislature that mostly forbids decommissioning, whilst voting adequate funds for maintainence & modernisation.
Separate example, but still notable, is the AV8B Harrier derivative. Still in service alongside F35B long after we spun the usual excuse that it represented an obsolete platform, and decommissioned before above replacement anywhere near availability. Capability gaps being another favourite pastime here, together with reduced replacement numbers, regardless of threat levels.
Agreed, we should stop decommissioning things and ADD new stuff, as shown many times in many places the old works as well. We need more, more of everything. The russians manage with a smaller economy, hell the Swedish even build their own planes with a smaller economy. Time to realise the civil servants who really run this country are trying to break it so the russians can have it for free
Agree 👍
What you mainlining? Do you need more tin foil?
They were built to be commissioned for 18 years. The fact they are even running is quite impressive to be honest. The fact is a 30 year old ship will need a lot of work to keep it running..infact every ship needs a lot of work to keep it running the sea is constantly trying destroy ships and boat, through both chemical reactions and dynamic forces.
Austerity delaying T26 (GCS) coming home to roost.
Which is why the T32 order is needed to prevent T45 being thrashed to death.
No point in overusing £1Bn ships (ok the ships only cost ca £500m but the project cost was ca £1Bn per hull) when a £300m one will do the job.
Morning SB,
Agreed.
Unfortunately, I am getting ever more concerned about the T32. I am getting serious deja vu with the current T32 programme. If it was down to me I would scrap it as a seperate programme and simply order an extra 5 Stretched T31’s.
It is a considerably streamlined process compared to developing and procuring an ‘entirely’ new frigate, which under Treasury Rules the T32 probably is. It would also put considerable limits on those who would try to gold plate everything, it would use the same supply chain and simplify production transition from one batch to the next.
Should be a seamless continuous production run – should!
Cheers CR
I couldn’t agree more, scrap the T32 program and stretched batch II T31’s seems the logical route but I would say five was to many due to the recruiting issues. No point building ships if there is no one to sail them but at least three would give the RN a little more depth. I would agree with five normally but it’s time to be realistic what is achievable. We need to make sure that there is surfactant resources for the six MRSS needed, this another program that needs to push forward before it starts to slip back further.
Quote from recent Navylook article:
The official Out of Service Dates (as of 2016) were RFA Mounts Bay (2031), Cardigan Bay (2031) RFA Lyme Bay (2032), HMS Albion (2033) and Bulwark (2034). The precise retirement date for Argus is unclear but she has been extended in service “beyond 2030”. In order to replace these vessels on a timely one-for-one basis then the MRSS project needs to proceed quickly and deliver more than one ship per year. A decision on this multi £billion project is unlikely to be made before the post-election defence review which will probably take place in 2025. Completion of the first ships within 6-7 years to replace the Bay class is possible but modest extensions of service for at least one or two ships of the class may be needed.
Where MRSS could be built is a puzzle. If H&W then it won’t happen until the late 2030s.
If the type 32 is canned or delayed, rosyth could build MRSS.
I see bulwark and Albion getting a life extension or 1 of them anyway.
The bays will require looking at nearer the time to see condition.
Argus seems to be built different and keeps going.
The Albions are very likely to be extendable as they were very well built.
The Bays may or may not be as they were not so well built.
Argus was built with very good quality thick plate and actually very well made. Which is why she is able to soldier on.
I can’t see the MRSS being built at Rosyth, simple reason is it’s the only Dock at present for the QE’s and I think it has to be kept available as part of the contract. More likely H&W if it does OK with the FSS, which to be honest makes more sense. Block builds by CL, Appledore and themselves and all on the West Coast.
It would be an act of folly and political suicide to regenerate H&W build capacity and workforce and then close off its future pipeline for orders.
Hi Mark,
There is a rather depressing article on Navy Lookout (still on the frontpage) reviewing the RN’s troubles with recruitment and sadly it seems the they have scored something of an own goal with the new selection process they have introduced. It appears that it rejects rather too many people, the sense you get is that the selection process forgets that they are dealing with untrained civvies!
So I would order the 5 extra ships which would not turn up until the mid 2030’s and then pile the pressure onto the navy to get a grip and improve the situation. I would also scrap the new centralised tri-service recruitment system that is under development and based on the Army’s system which is even worse by all accounts…
I should say that the navy’s selection process is inhouse.
In the interests of balance, we shouldn’t forget the awful pilot training system either…
All very sad.
CR
If you are simply ordering more of the same it would make sense to wait until the supplier is pushing you to commit because they are about to complete the existing order. You would then have ships in service and would be able to see how much value you are getting for your money.
I certainly wouldn’t order anything until Babcock have actually delivered the first T31 and it’s been in service a year.
Rosyth / Babcock have never built a single warship from scratch and I’d want to kick the tyres before committing £££’s to more.
The 1st of any class is always the slowest, uses the most man hours and encounters all the problems. That happens at even the most experienced shipyards, never mind a new one. The design / build is de-snagged, lessons learned and incorporated in the next build and so on (just see T45 build for details).
The bit that bugs me about the T31 is the age of the design and how the design is optimised to be built.
Essentially we are building the ship exactly the same way as the Danes ie Canoe build using small sub assemblies from the keel upwards. Yes you can build an excellent ship that way, but it will take longer, use more man hours and require more outfitting post launch.
But modern block building is way more efficient and ultimately cheaper and quicker.
So if I were MOD and even thinking about a Batch2, and wanted to really drive value for money I’d actually pay Babcock to adapt the design for block build and incorporate double rafting / enclosures for the Diesels.
Only issue is they may need to ask BAe for some help as the original Absalon / Iver Huitfeldt design proposal was theirs and they were the design consultants for OSL.
Block build enables the workload to be spread to other yards, which inserts more competition for that work (CL, Appledore etc) and would speed the build process up.
It is very true that Babcock have to produce T31 #1 before further orders. But that can be an incentive.
Or Big Stick 😉
Yeah I see that article and watched the parliament select committee talking to the first sea lord sir Ben Key about the state of the recruitment, it’s all quite depressing.
Rejects far to many people like the RAF pilots for instance.
Have the desired specs been made available for T32? I get that it is intended to host drones, but not why T31 cannot do this in its intended form. Is it the flight deck? Another batch just seems the obvious choice, even if it is just 2 or 3.
Hi Robw,
No they haven’t, is the quick answer. However, we can infer a lot from the published responses from the main contractors BAE Systems and Babcock.
Babcock have offered a T31 development with a 2m increase in length (stretch) and a smaller Merlin capable flight deck in place of the current Chinook capable version. The freed up space is given over to a larger mission bay.
There is an article on Navy Lookout if I remember rightly.
So my grand plan for the RN recapitalisation would be 5x Stretched T31 and 2 to 4 additional or Batch 3 Type 26 in the short to medium term. Long term the T83 hopefully 8 of them, certainly no less than 6.
The problem is that the services seem to have forgotten how to recruit people..! However, non of my wishful thinking could possibly be realised until the late 2030’s at the earliest so there would to 10 to 15 years to sort out recruitment. If the military / MoD can’t sort that issue out in that time… well in the words of that great philosopher, Private Fraser, “We’er Doomed!”
By the way, as a form defence analyst my wish list is more closely driven by the threat than by what is often deemed ‘possible’, i.e. what with an eye on what is necessary.
Cheers CR
Personally I would wait until HMS Venturer is complete, fully tested and has achieved FOC before ordering another Batch of whatever variant ot that platform.
I don’t think there is a need to wait so long as later ships in Batch 1 will be modified to reflect lessons learnt anyway. Prince of Wales had differences when compared to Queen Elizabeth. Some were designed in from the start, others were applied as a result of lessons learnt apparently. Such processes are pretty much standard these days, it seems.
Plus if you are going for a stretched version of the T31 you need to get on with the design changes as there will still be quite a few design review hoops to jump through before the modified designed is accepted and certified.
Cheers CR
Outsourcing recruitment seems to have been an absolute disaster. So what do they do? Reverse the policy? No, they double down on it.
Hi David,
Apparently the current selection process is in-house..! They are rejecting so many people that most basic training courses have so many spaces on them that there real questions around the value for money of even running some of them.
Another recent article on Navy Lookout suggests that the RN gets 80 application per day..! and they are still under strength. To suggest that the vast majority of those applicants are unsuitable is just plain silly – something has gone badly wrong with recruitment and training.
Madness.
Cheers CR
It is a thought process problem.
Are the recruits suitable to be trained as opposed to being ready to be trained?
TBH the solution is probably to be less selective upstream and more selective down stream and see how much people improve.
Couldn’t agree more, mate.
No one can predict how an individual will develop when the training starts…
Cheers CR
Isn’t the question – what kind of drones are to be deployed?
ASW and AAW drones may well need a big flight deck.
Other kinds of subsurface drones need something else?
Quite likely mate.
I was merely repeating what I had read, not commenting on the Babcock offering.
However, the Batch 1 T31 have a large flight deck so a Batch 2 with a smaller flight deck and bigger mission bay may provide a useful mix of capabilities. It may also be a sensible way forward given the rate of development of autonomous systems.
Cheers CR
Absolutly agree with the above comments. I have thought a T31 with *rafted engines*, a bow sonar and a 127mm gun. The extra cost of the equipment could be paid by the saving costs of a new design.
Hi Nick,
That would be one option, but the RN appears to be more interested in being able to carry uncrewed systems. Babcock have offered stretched verion of the T31 with a small flight deck and big mission bay. You probably won’t be happy to learn that everything else is pretty much unchanged – but it is early days yet.
Cheers CR
I’m still not entirely convinced the T32 wasn’t a bit of off-the-cuff ‘government-by-press-release’ by Boris that the MoD then had to hurriedly backfill into an actual programme.
I agree that it makes far more sense to just have more T31 hulls – even if the fit-out is different. Its puzzling why this isn’t the obvious choice.
I too suspect it was a BJ invention. Just uprate a batch 2 T31 to be more capable.
That’s what I think as well and it has cfreated a programme that the RN doesn’t need. The T31 isn’t even in service yet, so hardly out of date…
Just build a few more… Simples..!
Cheers CR
Or was it just that clown “mis-speaking”?
Always my thoughts…Boris opened his mouth and put his foot in….
Why build 5 T31 and then start another design…. So MOD…. Just build batch 2-T31 the batch 3-T31
I think the T22 came in 3 batches and the first batch were quite different to the third batch
Thanks Ian
Just call me Lord Dave; so nice to see him back.
If we want a second tier AAW to bulk out the Type 45s as they go through Lifex, the T31s will be already halfway there, with CAMM and Mk41 VLS. The radars could do with an upgrade, and we’d probably end up spending £400m rather than £300m, but it wouldn’t be too difficult.
I’d rather T32 or T31/B2 had a touch of ASW about it, even if it’s not conventional rigged. More hangar space for both a Merlin and a Proteus at the same time would be useful. We need to get T32 out of Concept asap, and not wait on Venturer’s integration.
With you both. Order 1-3 more T31s while in build and prices are low. If the UK wants to be able project into the Indo- Pacific 3-4 of these in the region would be pretty substantial leaving the other 3-4 for North/South/Med and CSG and free up the T26/T45s. And, or, get a bloody move on with the T32 or the competition will take over… Lol 😁
The AAW radar would be networked from QEC and T45 which both have to top end air search. Skimmer radar will be Sampson on T45.
T31/32 can just have missiles that can be directed and handed off to a T45.
T45 is the specialist AAW platform and has all the radars and specialist trades on board. No sense in duplicating that.
T31/32 doesn’t have the top weight margins for the really big heavy radars to sit high enough.
UK has not invested in CEC, so we can’t actually network ships together and use the frigates as extra missile capacity like you say.
It went down a different path than CEC.
If you read between the lines of various announcements this was announced in the last SINKEX that various assets controlled missiles fired from other platforms.
Thing is CEC, as was, isn’t the right solution for now.
This is a *made up* example of how it *might* work.
You don’t need much data exchange for T45 to say to T31 ‘send a missile to X, Y, Z coordinates at this sector vector hand off control at A, B, C coordinated; encryption key is “sdfjejfjfjoowod243235” secret key is preshared in an OTP table that is unique to the missile identifiers etc. The T45 takes it onto its systems from there.
Intresting
All fine & dandy IF a T45/QE is available & present. Often they’ll be alone, so need enough kit for their own survivability & mission capabilities. We’ve a tiny fleet so it’s rare that ideal force composition will be on hand.
We are taking about high intensity operations here?
The Swiss Army knife approach is an illusion. Each ship will cost more than RN could ever afford.
I’m thinking more as in what would have been ultra useful in ‘82….
From the DSEI show, Babcock did have their A140 model, which included a long range search radar (SMART-L type) on a rear mast near the hangar. Along with a forward mast mounting four AESA panels, though not to the same scale as CEAFAR. So I think there is scope for additional radar capability.
SMART-L is air search?
In a CSG situation is another big sky searching radar going to add much?
It is a question of bang for limited bucks which is why I keep droning on about remote……
I was more getting at the inability, weight wise, to put a radar real high to look for skimmers.
Hi SB, as per Jon’s comment below. The T31’s NS100 will be some 30m above sea level, which may not be the same as the T45s. It’s still has a better radar horizon than an Arleigh Burke. I personally believe both the T26 and T31, should have a second primary radar, primarily for the volume air search role. Both ship’s are overly reliant on Artisan and NS100 respectively. It is a single point of failure that could have dire consequences for the ship, if the radar fails or is damaged.
I can definitely see the T31 being tasked with being part of a CSG, used as a goal keeper ship, providing local area defence. As the T23/26s will be off in the distance looking for subs. It remains to be seen if the T31s, will have a matching number of CAMM cells and Mk41 VLS, i.e. 32 apiece. It will give the Navy and the task group considerable options on the ship’s loadout. Though It could also be directed by the T45s and Carrier.
Both MBDA and Lockheed Martin have said that both CAMM and Aster can be used by Mk41. Though I have yet to see any test firings! With the Polish Projekt 106 frigates showing CAMM and CAMM-MR installed in the model’s Mk41 cells. Could we also see the Navy getting CAMM-MR for the T31s? It would definitely compliment the Asters of the T45s. But more importantly allow the ship when operating on its own to provide true area defence rather than just local.
When the LRG concept gets fleshed out with the MRSS, I think the T31 will find a natural home outside of Hormuz. I also hope to see CAMM-MR on T31, even in the CAMM 6-pack silos. If the Poles can put them on the Mieczniks, why not?
NS100 is an economy level fit.
I agree T26 needs a secondary and maybe T31.
I simply don’t see how you financially deal with turning everything into a polished AAW platform?
I agree about Sea Ceptor -R versions being used to widen capabilities.
By not putting Type 83 into Concept, we are effectively pushing the build contract date back, relying on T45 Lifex (which I think most of us expected anyway). That means we are pushing back some pretty high expense items from the late 2020s to the early 2030s. Adding some AAW to T31 should therefore be achievable, even alongside T32. Obviously not polished though: this is definitely second tier on the cheap.
Not sure about the knock-on operational costs and the crewing requirements of increased capability/complexity. Also not sure about the cost implications of a build gap at Govan. B3 Rivers?
T31 is essentially an Iver Huitfeldt, which already has a second Smart-L radar, so I know for sure it has all the top weight margins it needs. That class has over a decade of service and we’d have noticed.
While you are right in suggesting it could be slaved to a T45, it also needs to be able to work apart from a T45. The issue is, what happens if there are no T45s available? That’s the whole point of creating a second tier AAW rather than just a missile-toting gun boat.
It only has 1 Smart-L but a full European APAR as well, same as the German and Dutch AAW Frigates. Only bit they forgot was to actually buy some SM2 / 6 missiles for about 10 years. Now done that.
Agree with the ASW, more the better. 👍
We should also build some more t45 and when as reported we want some flat deck qe with catapult we should just build a few new ones like that and have say 4 or more aircraft carriers. If we stopped spending money on 5 star hotels for immigrants, millions on mps hen houses and billions on creating more complex tax rules, anti motorist measures, gree bullshit and jobs for diversity etc we could instead spend it on making sure are armed forces are in a position to defend us when (no longer if) the russians and Chinese arrive
Wouldn’t surprise me if they did scrap her. There comes a point where it any machine simply cannot be repaired. At which point you either scrap or renovate, the latter is in effect a remanufacturing process.
The best example of renovating machinary I can think of is heritage railways rebuilding old steam locomatives and that only works because the people doing the job are volunteers… The navy isn’t into renovation or last least it wasn’t.
Sad state of affairs and a damning indictment of past decisions to cut / delay investment. Just when the threat really starts to ramp up our navy is still shrinking.
Hopefully, the new BAE System frigate factory along with the all the other investment that is going on at the moment really does herald a marked up tick in the navy’s fortunes. Roll on T31 and T26 – can we have a few more please?
Cheers CR
Ok my ten’peneth from doing an awful lot of stuff on Montrose when she was out here, and I oversaw several packages on her.
Steel erodes and wastes. Its a fact of life. Numerous factors such as location onboard, preservation status, maintenance and Cathodic protection systems affect the amount of wastage. Replacing steel plate that is in the hull shell is a massive issue, decks not so much. Work in way internally can cost more than the actual steel being cropped out and the new being welded in. Isolating fuel tanks, cleaning them for gas free, painting, air testing. In other compartments removing panels, lockers, bunks, cable trays, pipework, equipment, hull penetrations it all adds time and cost.
Once you start, I guarantee you will find other stuff that is wrong and needs fixing. Growth work, which is items not in the Original to Type Work Package (OTSWP) of known defects and planned maintenance items, is at least twice as expensive in time and money to repair than items you know about. So, say you know you have a defect in wasted plate in a fuel tank that is 1mSq. Getting in the tank and doing some NDT UT shots you then start to find that the1mSq area grows to 10m Sq. with plate being below the acceptable wastage limit and no decent steel of suitable thickness under the paint to weld up to. Now you need to buy ten times the amount of plate and stiffeners you budgeted for. It’s going to take a lot more time in Steel cropping, welding, NDT, painting, testing than you budgeted for and that’s just one repair.
Pipework onboard has on average a 10year life for 70/30 Cuni in bends and radiuses suffering from turbulent flow. Cuni is kin expensive but it’s very very good at resisting erosion hence its used-on warships. You UT the wall thickness and the amount of pipework that needs to be changed will skyrocket…let’s not even consider secondary system pipes using Galv Steel Pipe…you may as well change all of that. Hydraulic hoses are lifed at 5-10-15 years so for the most part. expect to change out all of those.
We are not even into Systems with 10-15-20-25 yr inspection and overhaul requirements or any planned upgrades to existing systems be they Marine or Weapon engineering.
I refitted Bulwark in 2010. That cost north of 75 mil for an 18K T LPD without steel renewal or major system upgrades. Westminster could easily be double that. It’s not worth the time or the money or tying up a drydock for. Call it quits.
Spend the money elsewhere on ships currently providing OC or by speeding up build and maintenance times. Thats something that MOD has already done but it’s not widely publicized…T31 and T26 build times and T45 refits have been shortened…not by a massive amount but they are shorter which helps in the medium to longer term plan.
Finger in the air, what would it take (time/cost) to convert Argyll or Iron Duke to ASW standard? Could most of the extra equipment be ported from Westminster?
Min 18 months.
Major reworks required for power systems to provide the 600v aft to the winch for the active transmitter.
Steel works in the winch well and quarterdeck
Install cables and cabinets in the ops room space and the aft SIS. Set to work, trials.
Thank you.
I see the latest article in Navy Lookout is suggesting that it will have to be considered, but I wonder if we can afford to have another frigate out of service during CSG 25. Even a GP one.
Hi GB from grey and gloomy Derby.
Am I right in thinking that her intended OOS date is still 2028 ? Which means that as she was launched in 1992 she will have been afloat for 36 years. Not bad for a hull designed for an 18 year life and honestly I’m not surprised the MOD are dithering about refitting her or not.
If they take 4 years to refit her and it costs £100million for 1 year service that IMHO is nuts !
We have 13 frigates on order so the RN fleet numbers are contracted to remain stable, and it’s probably all we can crew.
I see everyman and his dog offering up fanciful plans for ordering extra T31, T32 and T45 and just think about what will that achieve in the long run ?
I actually think that if there is any spare cash then the RN needs to invest in the support infrastructure before ordering any more ships.
Recently there are signs that the RN are waking up to just how bad things are for the SSN/SSBN force by starting the process for 2 new floating drydocks for HMNB Clyde.
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/uk-mod-seeking-two-floating-docks-for-clyde-naval-base/
But what about the surface fleet ? IMHO we desperately need 2 major investments PDQ otherwise future refits will be way harder and expensive to carry out.
Seems to me a twin, covered drydock with sufficient site for a T45 (plus growth room) would fit the bill. But not sure where at Devonport or Portsmouth you can fit one !
Given your knowledge and background I’m intrigued to know your thoughts ?
Could be hallucinating, but believe Deep32 has stated previously that Babcock developed and RN has (partially? totally?) funded a similar FRC conversion project at HMNB Devonport. Additionally, wouldn’t the logical additional QE class repair facility/drydock be located at H&W in Belfast, eventually? ourse, could also be totally adrift at sea w/ comments. 😁
Of course…🙄
Good Morning. Not sure about that it may be referring to the £750 million being invested at Devonport for support / refit facilities for the SSN/SSBN boats and the decommissioning facility.
I’ve seen nothing about the how or where we are going to refit the T31/T26 etc and last I heard no contract has been agreed.
Business dealing with UK MOD Rule No1 ! No contract = No investment.
As for H&W yep it has just sooo much to offer in terms of facilities and access to the Atlantic. It’s the obvious long term choice, but it has to rebuild an experienced workforce and will not be a contender till after it delivers the FSS so mid 2030’s.
There is also the small matter of security in NI and what happened the last time H&W were involved with a U.K warship (see RFA Fort Victoria for details).
If it was me and I wanted a quick, dirty and relatively cheap stop gap, I’d take Inchgreen back into public ownership, put up a sign saying HMNB Clyde on the fence and secure it, Then refit it, build a large empty Shed next door with plenty of power and a designated space for portakabins, I might even disassemble the Gantry Crane MOD purchased for Rosyth and stick it there.
In an emergency you can bring in a workforce from other shipyards and put them in hotels if needed. it’s been done before and can be done again.
FYI both dry docks were funded by HMG back in the 1960’s, have superb access to the North Atlantic and are big enough for a USN carrier if required.
Spookily they are half the distance away from the GIUK gap than Norfolk Va is, so back in the day pretty handy.
Hmmm…very interesting potential alternative. 🤔 Apparently logical; realistic chance of implementation?
If Westminster is refitted, the OOS date could be extended. I’d be thinking roughly four/five years after it comes out of refit. So if it had come out of refit 23/24, it would be OOS 28/29. If it comes out of refit in 2028, you could expect it to be okay up to 2032/33. In the past, the Navy was a lot more rigid about planning, but we saw when Tony Radakin was 1SL they thought again about getting the most bang for the buck which saw Monmouth and Montrose retired early and other T23 OOS dates extended to take advantage of the extra life that a full refit granted.
The problem with that approach is that the few remaining platforms do crazy miles and hills (and other bits) get knackered.
Thanks for the hard work Gunbuster.
👍 👌
Hopefully, accelerated build and refit
schedule is maintained for T-26, T-31 and T-45. 🤞 Problem re escort availability thus resolved over time.
I’d say difference between your legislature and ours is that yours sees the need to maintain units in order to meet worldwide commitments. Ours is too fond of demanding similar commitments, but without the tiresome necessity of putting adequate upkeep money where its political mouth is.
Our carriers are a fortunate godsend; less in existence because of coherent forward thinking, more due to Brown locking the Treasury into eye-watering penalties for cancellation in order to guarantee Scottish employment – Yes! – pork barrelling……
Rgs
Cough…Tico Life Extension…Cough. How to spaff a billion up a wall and not actually achieve any Lifex.
And the entire Little Crappy Ship (LCS) class from concept design through accelerated OOS…🙄
Yes, I steered (helmed?) clear of mentioning the L🤑C🤑S, but it was represented in the above ‘!’ & ‘……’ With the QEs we’ve an example where we actually struck lucky with a) design efficiency, b) fortuitous timing. Cushty ☺
They do seem to be finding some interesting uses for the LCS2’s, it seems it’s dawned on them that having a fast ship with shed loads of space may be pretty handy. Containerised TLMS, MCM mothership and even as a fast transport.
It would be beneficial if USN could find some productive use for them, albeit a role extraneous to the original intent and purpose. 🤞
I was on one a few weeks ago for a look see. They are …Interesting. The maintenance concept is CLS which we had in place for T23 decades ago and proved then that it is unworkable as a system.
They obviously didn’t read the memo, went down the same road, hit the same roadblock and are taking the same diversion that the RN did. Now they are increasing onboard maintainer knowledge and have shore-based service tiger teams to do alongside maintenance.
Flying a CLS Contractor out Buis class, putting them in a hotel (4 *) for 2 weeks to change a foam air filter on a cabinet is not an effective use of monies!
Wasn’t CLS also the original maintenance model for T-45, as well? One does wonder what is discussed at joint RN/USN conferences and symposia. The intent is to discuss and share best practices, not necessarily to party hearty.
There is (or should be) a practical limit to the amount of alcohol that ahould be consumed at the O’ Club during the course of these meetings. 🤔😉
Mm. Still, a House that votes to maintain vessels, if you’re serious about matching vaunted ambition with adequate fleet units, does have a certain appeal, GB. And there’s still the Arleigh Burkes…….
Great reply again and good doses of common sense GB! They can always extend the T26 build by 1-2 and the T31 by a few or bring on the T32. It’s going to be interesting what can be cross decked from the T23s when they retire. At least stuff is happening!
Another gem of info from GB! The subject matter knowledge on here is second to none. 👍
The navy should be trying to get some kind of deal for dropping numbers with regards to a new ship. An extra frigate ordered from the money saved.
They said 4 years for a frigate refit is too long. Later it mentions 2 years for Westminster refit.
I wonder if the first part is referring to another frigate having a 4 year refit or that’s how long Westminster will take.
Morning GB.As always,great comment and info from the horses mouth. Even for people like myself who have only a superficial knowledge of subject, it makes perfect sense to accelerate the introduction of new hulls. The decision whether to replace rather than repair is a universal question across hardware in general-have the same issues in the Building Industry here in SA in which I am still involved.
Cheers from Durban
Another daft asset gap is the result of poor planning and fiscal management. The MOD needs to ensure a ‘one in one out’ policy for all assets.
Hi maurice10,
I think we are well past that approach, me thinks two in one out, given the threats we now face…
Of course, Westminister bubble and there is no chance…
Cheers CR
Yeah – they play with fire by opting for one-out…one-in with a five year gap in the middle
Theyve managed to get away with it for years, and probably pat themselves on the back for meeting budgets. And then one day it’ll go badly wrong except they won’t be at MoD anymore and it’ll be the new guys problem.
One ship left to fall apart, not enough crews, delays in new ships, State normal. The high ups in the navy need to get a grip or move on, Shameful display of dithering too busy showing off our not many planes aircraft carriers. Excuses excuses as always.
Extending the life of old crew heavy ships is just a way trying on paper to save money. River class patrol boats, too big , under gunned, more could have been added to hull that size.
crumbs, do you literally sit stewing in your pants with a pot noodle and depression waiting to vent on this stuff?
Truth hurts, get over it. Next time I will dig out my rose tinned glasses just to keep day dreamers happy. Off to take my meds now and get a bombay bad boy on the go.
The simple truth about the B2 Rivers is that they were a necessary expedient caused by the 2008 decision to not build T45 no7 & 8.
That caused a gap in the BAe work stream and due to the terms of business agreement HMG had to either pay compensation or order some extra ships.
So 5 batch 2’s were ordered with the necessary systems and weapons to perform the function of OPV’s as cost effective infill work.
Unusually MOD didn’t twiddle, fiddle or add too much to the existing Modified VT OPV designs except for adding a CMS, extra damage control zones and sensor upgrades.
They may look underarmed compared to small corvettes but that’s not what they are designed to do and they compare well with other similar OPV designs. Due to the terms of the lease agreement for the Batch 1 Rivers there was an emphasis on availability and being easier to maintain than most other RN ships.
Hence they have probably the highest availability of any recent RN ships.
If you want to see an OTT OPV take a look at the Dutch Holland class.
Ah an out standing reply, thank you
not worth refitting her, sadly, she would be in dock till may be 2026 by which time would too old. Scrap her and save the money.
Tragic that Parliament is reduced to tracking and challenging the Admiralty about individual vessels….
And one by one the fleet shrinkage continues…
The blame for this shambles lies with the man who was brought out of deserved obscurity this week to be the Chinese pick for our Foreign Secretary, the noble Lord Cameron and his familiar, George Osborne.
Heh heh, Barry made me giggle ☺️ ta.
They hold a lot of the responsability for the nadir of our armed forces & wider public services. Maybe that’s what all that dodgy Russian & Chinese money bought?
They should have left “Call me Dave”, in his pig, or was it a sheep hut.
Although some have speculated he has been in both 😉
And here is me thinking it was all down to his predecessor who stuffed up BAe by cancelling the last 2 T45’s to “accelerate the GCS project” and didn’t follow up on it by actually doing so. The real reason was he probably needed the money for the 2 QE’s being built in his neighbouring constituency.
At the time the first T23s were commissioning, the RN was talking up warships ideally having an 18-year lifespan. That was a forlorn hope but the T23s were never designed for a 30+ year lifespan.
It is not worth the candle trying to recussitate Westminster.now, it would be an enormous cost for a few more years service. Far better to use the money for a new build, such as the MRSS or new MCMV class.
The problem on escort numbers is that the drumbeat of orders stopped abruptly. From the first T23 in 1990, HMS Norfolk, the navy commissioned one escort per year on average, 22 ships over 24 years.
The last escorts ordered by the Blair/Brown government, the final four T45 destroyers, were commissioned 2011 to 2013.
And then nothing. Not a single escort has been built or commissioned by the Conservatives over their 13 years in office. The gap.between the last T45, HMS Duncan, commissioned in 2013 and the first of the T26s, HMS Glasgow, expected to commission in 2026/7, is 13 or 14 years.
The result is that the whole T23 class has had to soldier on well past its sell-by date, with highly expensive ‘mid-life ‘ (aka end-life) refurbishments.
Why the enormous gap in escort building? Because the carriers were under construction then and HMG had to rob other defence budgets, including the army’s allegedly, to pay for it.
That fairly disastrous legacy rules out building any T32 class. The budget is only sufficient for one new escort a year, as has been the case for the last 35 years. The RN is now trying to.bring in 5 T41s and 8 T26s by thr mid 30s, by which time the first T45 will be 26 and at the end of its lifespan.
13 new escorts in 10 years? I’d think no chance, can’t see how the budget can run to that. What I expect will happen is that the Batch 2 T26s will be delayed, ostensibly for design reasons, and the T45s will be hitting 30 by the time the first T83 is launched.
So basically there is no space in the budget or construction programme to fit in any T32/additional T31s until the 2040s. There is a degree of wishful thinking on this site!
There is a degree of geopolitical necessity that did permeate upwards and even out of the mouth of the chancellor Mr Hunt who is the son of an admiral.
I would not rule out a defence increase in the autumn statement.
It shows that Cameron’s first visit was to Ukraine and he made some strong statements about support that will have had to be agreed to be funded before he made them.
I also think that the real intelligence picture is closer to one of Russian desperation and lack of materiel that we may be realising.
I agree with you and do think we may be in for a pleasant surprise. The underlying issue that has handcuffed us were the interest payments on the National debt (last year it was twice the entire defence budget). That’s now back under control so they have wiggle room to do the right thing and also do what Brown did with the carriers, make it so expensive to cancel anything they got built.
Or they just throw it away on Tax Cuts and try to bribe a hung parliament out of us.
The general defence situation has deteriorated so far so fast that we are pretty much forced into it.
He has plenty of ground to make up though, SB.
Without delving into Dave’s actual record on SDRs, his last firm leadership promise was to stick by the country’s EU referendum decision come what may. Until immediately announcing ‘FIT’ and concentrating on his personal Golden Age.
Then up he pops, fully televised in the role of Credible FS, announcing his steadfast support for UKR – come what may i.e. whatever transpires in the USA; or maybe until Labour relieve him & PM of true consequence
As for the aforementioned TV show, two things crossed my mind:-
Firstly, Zelenskyy was an Actor (albeit qualified in law), who’s Leadership committment is not in doubt. Whereas DC, so far on the Churchill scale, more in evidence as a Role Reversal to date.
The second was the contrast when the credible Wallace was pursued for a candid, brief revelation of ire (honest & not unusual in a true command role), where contextual video evidence was difficult to establish, despite the overall event having swarmed with cameras.
Perfectly prepared to believe the Damascene conversion, since I talk as a natural Conservative. But when I see it.
Are there many type23’s still in service? The ‘refits’, is that to upgrade stuff, or broken down bits? (sorry I’m not a sea person in any way shape nor form)
Is the government dragging out their length of service, in order to save on the cost of new ships? Is that counter productive, and less cost effective?
There are 11 Type 23s in service including HMS Westminster: 8 anti-submarine (ASW) and 3 general purpose (which means not fitted for ASW). They form the backbone of the fleet and are due to go out of service between 2026 and 2035, although as can be seen by Westminster they may not make it that far. Replacements will start to become operational 2027/28.
Every five or six years, they have to undergo a full inspection, thinning steel replaced and defects made good. Often during these refits, the opportunity is taken to upgrade things too. Sensors might be refurbished or replaced, new missile fittings added and so on. These aren’t done every time, but as separate programme of works with refit taken as an opportunity. So you might read about PGMU, a programme to replace the engines or hear the question has such and such a ship undergone PGMU?
Refits of these old ships take years, but it takes even longer to build a replacement. You ask is the government dragging out their length of service to save on build costs? Things take so long, it was the government in 2015-2017 who made that decision and mandated a slow build programme for the first few replacement Type 26s, which will mean the first ship, HMS Glasgow, will take 11 years from start of build (2017) to operational (2028). Is that financially counter productive? To the tune of wasted billions; however David Cameron didn’t dream he’d be back in office when the chickens came home to roost. The current government is trying to speed it up, but that won’t effect anything much until the end of this decade. There’s a second build program, five Type 31 frigates, which also won’t start coming operational until 2027. Until then, it’s all about making do.
General Purpose:
HMS Lancaster, active in the Gulf (out of service 25/26?).
HMS Iron Duke, active (recently refit)
HMS Argyll, inactive (in refit).
ASW:
HMS Northumberland, active (going into refit soon)
HMS Kent, active (going into refit next year)
HMS Richmond, active
HMS Portland, active
HMS Somerset, active
HMS St Albans, inactive (working up soon, operational next year)
HMS Sutherland, inactive (in refit)
HMS Westminster, inactive (refit suspended)
Whatever type they replace it with better order the steel plate now while we can still produce our own re Scunthorpe/Port Talbot
£100m was budgeted for the refit of Westminster. That now sounds hopelessly inadequate. If it turns out to be say £200m: (i) Where will the extra money come from? What will be cancelled(?) (ii) The refit is expected to deliver only one more commission of 3-4 years in active service, that is very expensive on a per year basis. (iii) Maybe the best thing really is to give up on her put the money towards some of the other items on the long list of things that the RN badly needs.
This has Grant Schraps written all over it. The £100 million will now be allocated to some project that has caught his eye.
Schraps knows nothing about the RN whatsoever. Neither does Sunak. The Sea Lords had better watch their arses in case they ask “how come this expensive ship has been allowed to get into such a state” Oh and by the way, how much does it cost the just keep it tied up alongside?
Let me suggest something heretical, at least as far as this forum is concerned; Grant Shapps will learn! Defence isn’t like energy or transport. Defence costs things up in dead bodies. Spend enough time hanging around and even the thickest person will get it, and as much as I don’t like him, I don’t think Shapps is thick. He may be focused on the next election, but he will have no choice but to engage. The world situation is too damned obvious.
Schrapps has managed to royaly mess things up in every government department that he has run. While your post is interesting, I don’t think Defence will be any different. He’s not Ben Wallace and pull in more money. Watch out for yet another “efficiency” drive culminating in capability cuts somewhere
Put a smile on David Cameron’s face.🤗
Strip it, and I would like to see it in a museum.
Martlets are new to the Wildcats. A new version of Sea Venom is coming into service. NSM is being added right now. Spear 3 is right around the corner and capable of testing from Typhoons. Four new anti-ship missiles. Time for a SINKEX.
Nar, give it to Portsmouth or Rochester museum.
I would suggest the old moniker of “mothballing” ships for future considerations.Sail her down to Halifax and use it as a stationary training vessel for type 26ers that are upcoming for the RCN.Maybe all of your decommissioned ships could serve your own Naval Reserve as stationary weapons platforms ,radar early warning ,air defence ,logistical command and control,arsenals ,RMC barracks,bivocing personel,and the list goes on and on.Why waste thier capacity?You don’t nessacarily have to take them out to sea , just berth them and maintain a limited militairy capability.
Given this situation, I wonder if the RN might recommission HMS Montrose? So currently only 10 Type 23’s left?
Howsit Klonkie!
hey Geoff- how are tricks Mate? Hope your well.
Maybe worth looking into if she’s in better shape than Westminster ,but there again it is HMG were talking about 🤔 🇬🇧
😜
I said a few weeks would we be better scrapping the un-LIFEX 23s and spending the budget on extra T31s, especially when you take note of what Gunbuster said about renewals
Now we have availability for tasking thinking, simple reduce the taskings accordingly and we meet the criteria. Simples.
You are right, with the benefit of hindsight investing in new builds rather than old Ships is the way to go, but the T31 is probably being built as quick as it can, admittedly the T26 is being speeded up.
If she is done…..she is done…..lets not waste money on fixing a turkey
4 years for a refit what a joke, it took us 3 years to build Westminster, alongside Northumberland and Richmond.
Agree the other 2 sisters next or are they at different stages in the life cycle?
Take it from me they are all fit for nothing but scrap and that is after refit.
Its goes to show how the cuts to the navy and ships worn out before their time ,poor maintenancehas played apart in this to save money ships laid off that could still serve the crown .its seems our government are so short sighted in this area and as we know we have more pen pushers in the M O D then servicing personal .what the point off two of the biggest carriers we had and our escorts are so small in number , still the US will bail us out , like in other areas, ,the Westminster will end up i expect as razor blades in a few years and no refit if they had wanted to keep her the refit would have been done or started and as we know the cost will keep going up