UK and French jets team up against simulated aerial threat

Com’on rhe french left the programme in 1986, there was anything to steal of real value at that time for a plane expect to be operationnal in the 2000s.
They managed to developpe a proper plane from their own, nothing more

The Eurofighter was a flying entity as it was the BAE2000.

So there was plenty to learn from that about how the fly by wire and negative stability worked.

FYI Dassault had already designed its own fly by wire for Mirage 2000 so was already familiar with fly by wire etc… CATIA design software also a Dassault product is widely used in industry. Not sure what BAE has to reach Dassault in aviation.

Mirage isn’t / wasn’t negative stability.

‘ Not sure what BAE has to reach Dassault in aviation.’ Well I couldn’t express more clearly why all aero collaborations with Dassault don’t work!

Unbelievable statement really given Typhoon and F35 design and production work.

You deflect and cant back up your claim that Dassault stole BAE designs to make Rafale. What in fact was stolen?
You make ridiculous claims and clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Mirage 2000 is unstable by nature hence the need for a fly by wire system otherwise a pilot could not control it.
Dassault has a long history of designing entire planes since 1929!
So please enlighten me as to what Dassault exactly stole from BAE? Facts not your opinion please, sources would be nice

As for Typhoon, it’s not better than Rafale who also has the edge tech wise with AESA radar, Spectra EW capability. Don’t take my word for it. Rafale has been more succesful on the export business. In fact Rafale has always placed higher in international bids during evaluation tests in all criteria like BVR, BFM, Air to ground, interception, recon missions (Swiss, Finland, Singapore, Nethrlands, Korea, all the official summary results were leaked online, i suggest you do an internet search you may learn something)

As for F35 it was designed by US, and UK got breadcrumbs US was willing to give away. All the critical stuff was solely developped by US like avionics, software (UK still doesnt have access to source code), weapons systems, radars, DAS, stealth airframe, engines etc….
BAE just did countermeasures suite, some tail parts and parts of rear fuselage. Meanwhile seats was Martin Baker and Rolls Royce developped the F35B lift fan, unfortunately RR did not get to produce the F136 and RR is not involved in the F135 overhaul in development.
So again not sure what BAE has to teach Dassault about designing and producing aircraft.
Eagerly awaiting for you to share the facts on what Dassault stole from BAE when it designed Rafale!

Rafale and Typhoon are designed for different roles. Rafale was designed with a greater nod towards air to ground operations with a very good air defence capability. Typhoon was designed to be an out for out air superiority fighter, with a secondary air to ground capability. In terms of brut performance the Typhoon has the edge above 30 thousand feet, the EJ200 is more powerful, and the whole engine/airframe works superbly at 45k+, supersonic and supercruise performance is also better. Lower down the Rafale has the edge, and you can tell from air show performances it handles like a dream. Avionics wise, yes Rafale has the AESA radar, but is limited because of the Rafales very pretty, but slim nose cone which limits the size of the array that can be fitted. Typhoon has a very large nose cone and Radar 2 once fitted will be much more powerful and capable, including electronic attack modes,
SEAD/DEAD. Project Centurion also closed the air to ground capability gap with integration of StormShadow, Brimstone 2, and the already very capable Paveway 4 PGB. The Litnening 5 targeting pod is also being integrated and is in use today with the RAF for Op Shader. Typhoon also benefits from having the Striker Helmet Mounted Display. A capability planned for Rafale with the Scorpion helmet but isnt in service yet.. The PIRATE system is also a very powerful IRST system and FLIR. Rafale certainly had the edge over Typhoon in the air to ground role, and is a superb airframe that is also a capable carrier aircraft. Rafale F4 also brings many enhancements. But Typhoon development will nudge it ahead in most area’s in the coming years with the Radar 2 AESA radar, wide area cockpit display and Striker 2 Helmet Mounted Display plus many other enhancements to defensive aids, communications, and networking. F35 Production and experience in the UK will also bring big gains for Tempest as well as the RAF’s/RN operational experience with a 5th gen fighter. 👍

Lol more BS.
Rafale was designed to be omnirole, it wasnt designed to be primarly air to ground. This is nothing more than anglo saxon bs. Omnirole means that it was supposed to able to do air superiority (BFM and BVR), as well as air to ground, recon, interception and policing missions, as well as nuclear deterence and a naval version. The reason Typhoon was designed for only air to air was that UK and partners all had Tornado for ground missions. A shortsightedness that has only been addresed in the last decade!
First of all your Rafale specs are just the ones yoh found on wikipedia. The mach 1.8, 50k feet and 9g limits stated for Rafale are to be taken with a grain of salt. French typically do not release real specs to public. For instance when France started selling Scalp it said range over 200km, while UK marketed the Storm Shadow at 500km. It’s the exact same missile, but it just shows a different cultural approach. More to the point the specs on wikipedia are just guideline/restrictions that French Air force imposes on its Rafale pilots to preserve engine and airframe life. We know for a fact that Rafale M88 engine can go faster tha the 1.8 mach. In fact it was done during a test flight at Istres on Feb 27, 1990 where Alain Rabion flew the Rafale at mach 2.0 at 15k meters altitude. Is that specific enough for you or do you think i just made that up?
Just like G limit is listed at 9g but we know from onboard footage at Dubai air show in 2019 that pilot callsign Babouc reached 11.8g during demo flight. This was straight from the HUD info from onboard video during airshow.
As far as altitude, again a guideline. In reality we dont know true ceiling. FYI at 60k feet altitude you are in the Armstrong Limit, so realistically a pilot would need a semipressurised suit to avoid his blood boiling! I have never seen any Typhoon pilot ever wear such a suit. In fact most pilots will never fly mach 2 in their career or at 60k feet altitude.
FYI mach changes based on altitude so so just stating a mach speed is fairly meaningless without a specific altitude, because mach 1 at sea level is about 15% faster actual ground speed than mach 1 at 60k feet. Also these theoretical top speeds are just theoretical since in reality you will also need to factor in weapons loadout, fuel etc…which will impact weight, balance and drag coefiicients.
The EF2000 may have higher stated specs on paper but that doesnt take into consideration the aircraft drag coefficient and weight. We know that Rafale is 1 ton lighter than Typhoon empty weight (10% difference). If you add drag coefficients etc… that extra thrust does not equate to higher speed! As far as supercruise the Rafale does better than Typhoon. This was demonstrated at Singapore when they were doing evalutations and ended up choosing F15 Lol. The Typhoon only managed mach 1.2 supercruise during the test while the Rafale can supercruise at mach 1.4 with 4 Mica air to air missile and a 1250L belly tank!
FYI Rafale already has HMD in service. Indian and Qatari Rafale have this, France will roll this out for its forces as part of F4 upgrade.
As far as your radar claims spare me the BS i have been hearing this for the last decade years about Typhoon having better radar and that AESA is coming and it will be the best. Yeah right and the World Cup is also coming home. Meanwhile in the real world of facts, Rafale has had an AESA radar for a decade while to this day Typhoon is still using a PESA. Furthermore your claim that Radar 2 will be better than Rafale AESA makes me smile, since it is just your opinion and not based on any facts, just the same promises ovr the last decade that are still not true to this day!
Meanwhile Rafale AESA tech has been maturing with over a decade headstart with regular upgrades over the years!
In fact Radar 2 right now is still just paper and it will include a mix of both GaaS and GAN TR modules. The UK made a big announcement in the fall 2020 that they were going to invest £317m in radar 2 for 40 Tranche 3 Typhoons. They were supposed to fly on the first Typhoon in 2022 and rolled out to the fleet of 40 by 2025. We are almost 2023 and guess what still no AESA in sight. Hopefully Jeremy Hunts budget reviews wont dampen the party. Meanwhile in the real world of facts France in 2019 allocated €2 billion for development of the F4 upgrade (that is a lot more than £317m)! The F4 standard was test in April 2021 and validated by French procurement agency DGA. The rollout was due to start in 2022 until 2024. The F4 standard will include upgrade of radar and Spectra EW suite with GAN antennas (both nise radar, antennas on wingedges, tail, inlet ducts and canards! So spare me any nose cone size bs, that you couldnt even give a size for in the first place) also in F4 will see comms upgrades (satelite, bandwidth etc…) and inegration of new weapons MICA NG and Hammer 1000kg
But of course according to you Radar 2 will be better. Obviously £317m spent on a first version AESA (mix of GAN and GaaS) on Typhoon will be miles better than a THALES AESA (all GAN) that French govt has spent €2billion on upgrading an existing AESA in service for a decade and already had some upgrades during that time.
Of course French are idiots and the English are just so much smarter than the rest of the planet. You sound like those Brexiteers and their BS (60billion to NHS, trade deals all over the world, immigration control, cake and eat it, etc..), meanwhile in the realworld Brexit is becoming Bregret. Anyway mainland Europe doesnt take UK claims seriously anymore, just like i dont take your claims that radar 2 will be the best. Just do it dont just say it.

Wow. Rant and a half that. So full of mistakes and contradictions. PESA on typhoon? €2b for rafale F4 then that same €2b just for the radar?
Most who know anything about aircraft know both are great aircraft and we are both on the same side so it’s irrelevant.
Speak to Qatar pilots in a few years of operating both aircraft or one of the exchange pilots that has put time on both airframes.

What mistakes and contradictons?
Yes PESA on Typhoon at this time except Kuwait just received its first plane recently with a Leonardo AESA that nobody in Typhoon (UK, Ita, Spa and Ger) consortium deems worthy enough to put on their own planes. Makes you wonder about how good it can really be.
2 billion as i stated was for Rafale F4 standard development. I listed the upgrades but it is mostly radar related (RBE2 and Spectra from Thales)
Rafale already is compatible with HMD since this was already done for Qatar and India in F3R. In fact French pilots for Finland evaluation were seen to be wearing HMD on tarmac even if Rafale was not selected.
Mica and Hammer weapons already are in use on Rafale, so Mica NG and heavier version of Hammer weapon integration on Rafale isnt exactly a huge upgrade.
Engine upgrade is just software for more effeciency.

I do agree that both aircraft are excellent and we are splitting hairs as done often on enthusiast forums. But you cannot argue that Rafale is now more modern since it has had a clear upgrades roadmap and they stuck to it. Meanwhile Typhoon that was very similar tech to Rafale at begining has struggled with upgrades over the years, and now there is a gap. I believe is due to the fact that this was a multinational effort and that politics is responsible for all this.. UK had to go it alone for Centurion upgrade, AESA upgrade has been festering mess for years and now split into 2 camps (UK/Ita vs Ger/Spa)
Who knows what Qatari pilots think, plus i am not sure a Qatari pilot will fly all 3 planes, more like he will train and be assigned one aircraft type for his career, (if piloting hasnt been outsourced 😀) plus one has to wonder if Qatar planes are not somewhat downgraded vs the UK or France use for their own armies. I dont know so i speculate or hope.
One thing i would like to add, is that Gripen has come a long way and Gripen E deserves an honorable mention as well

Hello Lordtemplar

Thanks for the detailed post- makes for informative reading. I did think to point out Robert(RB) did state “Rafale was designed with a greater nod towards air to ground operations with a very good air defence capability.” 
So that does dovetail with your comment re the Rafael being Omnirole,

You referenced “The Typhoon only managed mach 1.2 supercruise during the test while the Rafale can supercruise at mach 1.4 with 4 Mica air to air missile and a 1250L belly tank!” What external payload did the Typhoon have during this test -was it like for like?

I’m interested to hear your view as to the upcoming tranche 4 Typhoon(for Germany and Spain) capability vs the recent Rafale upgrades.

I would need to look at it up again but I believe it was a Luftwaffe Typhoon with a similar Iris T loadout in Singapore

Thank you LT

His figures are not correct about supercruise performance. Typhoon was the only aircraft to demonstrate supercruise performance in the Singapore evaluation. I’ll try and dig out the information. A clean Typhoon can hit M1.5 on dry power and around M1.2/3 with 4 x AMRAAM 4 x ASRAAM and two external fuel tanks, but atmospheric conditions do affect things, especially wind speed and direction at altitude. The EJ200 is also very very light on fuel at high altitude. Its fair to say, Typhoon is very happy above 40;000 feet. And any Typhoon pilot would confirm that.

Much obliged, appreciated that Robert. In truth I was a little taken back at some of the points he raised in his post.

Millennium 7* has probably the best content on YouTube and this video about rafale, typhoon and gripen called separated at birth is a great watch.
https://youtu.be/c8Osw8y2OYg
Pretty much all his content is the best available.
Each aircraft have there own good/bad points. I like all 3 and think working together they complement each other very well.
As to the radar I would consider captor to be a mechanical scanned pulse Doppler radar instead of a fixed plate PESA. Anyway hope u get a chance to watch the video,

Correct, Captor-M is a mechanically scanned pulse-Doppler radar. It is not PESA. Why Euroradar never went down the PESA route, I don’t know? There was significant political fighting on what the Typhoon’s radar should be. Especially after Germany jumped in bed with the US. Who were looking to build a development of the Hornet’s radar. Thankfully we didn’t go down that road. But now they are jumping to AESA. Captor-M was built off the back bone of the Sea Harrier’s Blue Vixen radar and incorporated lessons learned from the Tornado’s Fox Hunter radar. When Fox Hunter was working it put most other radars to shame, especially the F15’s. It had a much better than advertised detection range and the Captor-M was better still.

As Lordtemplar says, the Rafale has had AESA for a number of years, with the next iteration being fully gallium nitride over gallium arsenide. This will improve the radar’s performance, especially its noise threshold, ie how it can differentiate targets from background clutter. But and it is a big but. The RBE2’s overall performance is constrained by its antenna, in both size and being fixed.

One of the key measurements for radar performance is called gain. This is in effect the antenna’s ability to capture and magnify a weak signal to something useable. Having components that generate less self induced noise also really helps. But the antenna cross sectional area plays the bigger part. Therefore, to have maximum performance a bigger antenna will win over better components in the main. As it will capture a greater proportion of signal. How that signal is then manipulated and analyzed is where the money goes through signal processing.

Perhaps just as significantly, is that the RBE2 array is fixed. Therefore its scanning in elevation and azimuth are also fixed to +/-45 degrees in elevation and +/-60 in azimuth. This is a general limitation with electronic beam steering. It can go further but the performance drops off significantly, so in generally is not worth it.

Captor-E (Radar 2) gets around this limitation by using a mechanical swash plate to move the antenna array by an extra +/-30 degrees or so. Which gives it a similar field of view to a mechanically scanned radar. Does this really matter? Yes, as it means the pilot can fly with more offset to the target, when illuminating it, for mid course updates for beyond visual range missiles. Thereby placing them at less risk against counter fire.

Which radar is better? On paper RBE2 has been in use for longer and has been enhanced. Whilst Radar 2 especially has yet to be fitted. However, France has not had the benefit of owning the F35. Its APG-81 is a step change in capability, which is probably why Typhoon has not had an AESA radar earlier even though it was possible. As the RAF in particular had their eyes open to what the APG-81 brings to the table and wanted Typhoon to have a similar capability. It will be a few years yet before we learn if the wait has been worth it. But the rumours say it is.

I don’t honestly think it is worth discussing this with him as he isn’t providing anything very factual. There just seems to be a ‘French is best’ or ‘Dassault is the dogs’ line being trotted out.

Most of what Robert, yourself and I stated is on the accepted fact end of the spectrum and doesn’t really need referencing…..

Right. I sent you a perfectly sensible and polite message. I never quoted any figures aboutG limits or top speeds, and certainly didn’t look at Wikipedia. I know from my own experience of working on fast jets that performance figures quoted online are not accurate. My message was a sensible summary about the capabilities and development of Typhoon and Rafale. it’s not a pissing contest or top trumps. If you want to take that attitude, then that’s up to you.

French we are the best sensitivities on open display mate.

Both are fantastic aircraft at the end of the day, and if Rafale is “better ” then whoppy dooos hope he has his tissues. Matters not as we have Typhoon and won’t be buying it.

All irrelevant the Rafale and Typhoon will never go head to head. The reality is it will be pilot and tactics that will make the difference as the 2 airframes are quite closely matched. Perhaps we should be focusing on ensure that the Typhoons and Rafales can actually work together as a team using their complementary strengths and defeat a real enemy?

nothing like ranting and having chip on your shoulder

🙏

That is ridiculous.

I didn’t state t that Dassault stole anything – they collaborated and learned and used that knowledge.

Fly by wire has been going for a long long time with previous collaborations such as Concorde!

Mirage – which was an old design was never an inherently unstable design.

It is totally different to design fly by wire for an unstable design as opposed to a stable design.

Rafael has generally scored points as being cheaper. I’ve never heard anyone serious compare it to Typhoon in terms of capability. That is the joke comment of this exchange.

I’m not going to get into the rest of your comments as Robert Blay has posted better than I can!

Again you are wrong. Repeating does not change it.
“The Eurofighter was a flying entity as it was the BAE2000.
So there was plenty to learn from that about how the fly by wire and negative stability worked” your exact words.

Again i will repeat since you seem unable or unwilling to undestand. Mirage 2000 was designed well before Eurofighter was even a thought. Mirage 2000 was designed as an aerodynamicaly unstable platform from the start hence the need for fly by wire. I bet you think there is just one Mirage when in fact there have been different Mirage planes over the decades like Mirage 3, Mirage F1 etc…. they are not like Mirage 2000, only that they have a common name and delta wing design.
ofc you wont respond to my comments since facts > opinion. And i adressed R. Blay claims in quite some detail in case you are interested.

You are aware Concorde was fly by wire and delta wing designed before Mirage. Perhaps, just perhaps this civil project saw us working together on tech that found its way into future military aircraft for both countries.

As much as it pains me to say it, he is correct about the Mirage 2000 being an unstable design. The Mirage Is an unstable design because the centre of gravity is further aft, so the jet naturally wants to pitch up, or negative pitch stability. The FBW prevents this and gives the pilot carefree handling. With Typhoon, when it’s subsonic it’s very unstable which the FBW sorts out, when it goes supersonic, the point of instability moves behind the centre of gravity creating a stable platform, which is why the Typhoon is an absolute beast when high and supersonic. And the EJ200 is a dam fine fighter engine. Only the F22 can match or better Typhoon when high and fast. 👍

Thank you for the correction!

Thats correct which is why a Typhoon pilot would want to use that strength but likewise the Rafale is better at lower altitudes so if either pilot was foolish enough to engage where their aircraft was weaker then they will fail.

Was talking about Tempest. Rafale is comparable to Typhoon so it is fairly obvious France won’t buy Typhoon.

😂

OMG you can’t just glue Harrier/Pegasus idea onto another airframe.

The airframe has got to be designed with that VTOL approach in mind.

Pegasus was a single engine designed specifically to push thrust through steerable nozzles.

The way the F35B does it is totally different with a front lift fan. Even that really needed a longer airframe to keep the internal stores load at full length.

Hi SB, totally get that VSTOL is a different beast. I was wondering if there’s a high percentage of transferable commonality in avionics, radars, EW between the F35B, Typhoon, Tempest and not just in their weaponry?
And tongue in cheek, I was hoping there was some secret
Harrier II still being developed in a back shed somewhere in the UK…lol.
I think the last time glue was used would be on the De Havilland Mosquito?

Glue – redux bond etc – is widely used for aircraft skin. As it is a continuous connection it doesn’t have the localised stresses of rivets.

The whole problem with Supersonic son of Harrier was the crazy amounts of heat that were generated. You can’t use the same high bypass ratios as Pegasus used. There are various stories as to wether this was ever solved……

Sure the radar, EW, avionics will have some high degree of commonality. But, and it is a big but, F35 gets its tactical advantage from being a seamless union of systems. So the integration is key.

It can also do a pirouette of sorts!

https://news.usni.org/2022/12/15/f-35b-joint-strike-fighter-crashes-in-texas

Absolutely. They’re spirit is superb, as is the relationship between manager and players.

We’re used to it! No country has fallen at the Quarter final stage more than us. 7 times now.

A Surrey girl!? Where in Surrey mate?

grew up in Godalming and I think for a wee while in Guilford. A loooong time ago.

I’m Guildford. Give her my best mate.

copy that Squire!😀