Royal Air Force Typhoon and F-35 jets have been tested with a simulated air threat exercise alongside French Rafale aircraft.
The two nations met over the North Sea as part of Exercise Griffin Dawn to practise a coordinated response to a potential threat from an aircraft in or near home airspace. Additional RAF Typhoons played the role of the potential air threat and a French A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) aircraft provided air-to-air refuelling for both UK and French jets.
“The Exercise successfully tested the effectiveness of the Combined Joint Expeditionary
Force (C-JEF), an Anglo-French partnership which commits both countries to being able to
deploy significant air, land and sea capabilities, and more than 10,000 military personnel
for a variety of tasks such as peacekeeping, humanitarian aid or bilateral defence.
As well as challenging the airborne assets the Exercise provided an opportunity for a
combined French-UK team to conduct training of their Command and Control. RAF
personnel joined their counterparts in le Centre air de planification et de conduite des
opérations (CAPCO) near Lyon and coordinated with their UK equivalent – the RAF’s 11
Group Joint Force Air Component based at RAF High Wycombe – to provide Command
and Control to the assets in the air.”
Air Vice-Marshal Phil Robinson, Air Officer Commanding No. 11 Group, visited CAPCO
and met with General Stéphane Gröen Chief of Staff, Air Defence and Air Operations
Command.
“The Combined Joint Expeditionary Force is a vital military partnership between the United Kingdom and France. This week I have witnessed the UK Air Component integrate seamlessly with our French Air and Space Force colleagues, demonstrating our interoperability and enhancing our Air Command and Control.”
The Deputy Chief of Staff for CAPCO, Lieutenant-Colonel Jean-Christophe said:
“Through Griffin Dawn we have verified the interoperability between the assets of our two air forces, especially with data sharing and air-to-air refuelling compatibility. Overall, the exercise was a success, and the feedback will allow us to identify areas for improvement.”
Are the French going to get any 5th gen craft or are they just going to try and go straight to 6th gen?
No, I doubt they will even go for a 6gen manned aircraft in the end. Probably just an upgraded Rafale once FCAS falls apart.
By the time that happens it won’t be an option. They’ll have to swallow their pride and buy American. Or even worse for them to buy British.
Never going to happen. They will simply rework the Rafael if the Franco/Germanic collaboration doesn’t bear fruit. A Rafael reworked using technology developed from Franco Germanic programme and stolen. Bit like Eurofighter typhoon and the development of the Rafale
Com’on rhe french left the programme in 1986, there was anything to steal of real value at that time for a plane expect to be operationnal in the 2000s.
They managed to developpe a proper plane from their own, nothing more
The Eurofighter was a flying entity as it was the BAE2000.
So there was plenty to learn from that about how the fly by wire and negative stability worked.
FYI Dassault had already designed its own fly by wire for Mirage 2000 so was already familiar with fly by wire etc… CATIA design software also a Dassault product is widely used in industry. Not sure what BAE has to reach Dassault in aviation.
Mirage isn’t / wasn’t negative stability.
‘ Not sure what BAE has to reach Dassault in aviation.’ Well I couldn’t express more clearly why all aero collaborations with Dassault don’t work!
Unbelievable statement really given Typhoon and F35 design and production work.
You deflect and cant back up your claim that Dassault stole BAE designs to make Rafale. What in fact was stolen? You make ridiculous claims and clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Mirage 2000 is unstable by nature hence the need for a fly by wire system otherwise a pilot could not control it. Dassault has a long history of designing entire planes since 1929! So please enlighten me as to what Dassault exactly stole from BAE? Facts not your opinion please, sources would be nice As for Typhoon, it’s not better than Rafale who also has… Read more »
Rafale and Typhoon are designed for different roles. Rafale was designed with a greater nod towards air to ground operations with a very good air defence capability. Typhoon was designed to be an out for out air superiority fighter, with a secondary air to ground capability. In terms of brut performance the Typhoon has the edge above 30 thousand feet, the EJ200 is more powerful, and the whole engine/airframe works superbly at 45k+, supersonic and supercruise performance is also better. Lower down the Rafale has the edge, and you can tell from air show performances it handles like a dream.… Read more »
Lol more BS. Rafale was designed to be omnirole, it wasnt designed to be primarly air to ground. This is nothing more than anglo saxon bs. Omnirole means that it was supposed to able to do air superiority (BFM and BVR), as well as air to ground, recon, interception and policing missions, as well as nuclear deterence and a naval version. The reason Typhoon was designed for only air to air was that UK and partners all had Tornado for ground missions. A shortsightedness that has only been addresed in the last decade! First of all your Rafale specs are… Read more »
Wow. Rant and a half that. So full of mistakes and contradictions. PESA on typhoon? €2b for rafale F4 then that same €2b just for the radar?
Most who know anything about aircraft know both are great aircraft and we are both on the same side so it’s irrelevant.
Speak to Qatar pilots in a few years of operating both aircraft or one of the exchange pilots that has put time on both airframes.
What mistakes and contradictons? Yes PESA on Typhoon at this time except Kuwait just received its first plane recently with a Leonardo AESA that nobody in Typhoon (UK, Ita, Spa and Ger) consortium deems worthy enough to put on their own planes. Makes you wonder about how good it can really be. 2 billion as i stated was for Rafale F4 standard development. I listed the upgrades but it is mostly radar related (RBE2 and Spectra from Thales) Rafale already is compatible with HMD since this was already done for Qatar and India in F3R. In fact French pilots for… Read more »
Hello Lordtemplar Thanks for the detailed post- makes for informative reading. I did think to point out Robert(RB) did state “Rafale was designed with a greater nod towards air to ground operations with a very good air defence capability.” So that does dovetail with your comment re the Rafael being Omnirole, You referenced “The Typhoon only managed mach 1.2 supercruise during the test while the Rafale can supercruise at mach 1.4 with 4 Mica air to air missile and a 1250L belly tank!” What external payload did the Typhoon have during this test -was it like for like? I’m interested… Read more »
I would need to look at it up again but I believe it was a Luftwaffe Typhoon with a similar Iris T loadout in Singapore
Thank you LT
His figures are not correct about supercruise performance. Typhoon was the only aircraft to demonstrate supercruise performance in the Singapore evaluation. I’ll try and dig out the information. A clean Typhoon can hit M1.5 on dry power and around M1.2/3 with 4 x AMRAAM 4 x ASRAAM and two external fuel tanks, but atmospheric conditions do affect things, especially wind speed and direction at altitude. The EJ200 is also very very light on fuel at high altitude. Its fair to say, Typhoon is very happy above 40;000 feet. And any Typhoon pilot would confirm that.
Much obliged, appreciated that Robert. In truth I was a little taken back at some of the points he raised in his post.
Millennium 7* has probably the best content on YouTube and this video about rafale, typhoon and gripen called separated at birth is a great watch.
https://youtu.be/c8Osw8y2OYg
Pretty much all his content is the best available.
Each aircraft have there own good/bad points. I like all 3 and think working together they complement each other very well.
As to the radar I would consider captor to be a mechanical scanned pulse Doppler radar instead of a fixed plate PESA. Anyway hope u get a chance to watch the video,
Correct, Captor-M is a mechanically scanned pulse-Doppler radar. It is not PESA. Why Euroradar never went down the PESA route, I don’t know? There was significant political fighting on what the Typhoon’s radar should be. Especially after Germany jumped in bed with the US. Who were looking to build a development of the Hornet’s radar. Thankfully we didn’t go down that road. But now they are jumping to AESA. Captor-M was built off the back bone of the Sea Harrier’s Blue Vixen radar and incorporated lessons learned from the Tornado’s Fox Hunter radar. When Fox Hunter was working it put… Read more »
I don’t honestly think it is worth discussing this with him as he isn’t providing anything very factual. There just seems to be a ‘French is best’ or ‘Dassault is the dogs’ line being trotted out.
Most of what Robert, yourself and I stated is on the accepted fact end of the spectrum and doesn’t really need referencing…..
Right. I sent you a perfectly sensible and polite message. I never quoted any figures aboutG limits or top speeds, and certainly didn’t look at Wikipedia. I know from my own experience of working on fast jets that performance figures quoted online are not accurate. My message was a sensible summary about the capabilities and development of Typhoon and Rafale. it’s not a pissing contest or top trumps. If you want to take that attitude, then that’s up to you.
French we are the best sensitivities on open display mate.
Both are fantastic aircraft at the end of the day, and if Rafale is “better ” then whoppy dooos hope he has his tissues. Matters not as we have Typhoon and won’t be buying it.
All irrelevant the Rafale and Typhoon will never go head to head. The reality is it will be pilot and tactics that will make the difference as the 2 airframes are quite closely matched. Perhaps we should be focusing on ensure that the Typhoons and Rafales can actually work together as a team using their complementary strengths and defeat a real enemy?
nothing like ranting and having chip on your shoulder
🙏
That is ridiculous. I didn’t state t that Dassault stole anything – they collaborated and learned and used that knowledge. Fly by wire has been going for a long long time with previous collaborations such as Concorde! Mirage – which was an old design was never an inherently unstable design. It is totally different to design fly by wire for an unstable design as opposed to a stable design. Rafael has generally scored points as being cheaper. I’ve never heard anyone serious compare it to Typhoon in terms of capability. That is the joke comment of this exchange. I’m not… Read more »
Again you are wrong. Repeating does not change it. “The Eurofighter was a flying entity as it was the BAE2000. So there was plenty to learn from that about how the fly by wire and negative stability worked” your exact words. Again i will repeat since you seem unable or unwilling to undestand. Mirage 2000 was designed well before Eurofighter was even a thought. Mirage 2000 was designed as an aerodynamicaly unstable platform from the start hence the need for fly by wire. I bet you think there is just one Mirage when in fact there have been different Mirage… Read more »
You are aware Concorde was fly by wire and delta wing designed before Mirage. Perhaps, just perhaps this civil project saw us working together on tech that found its way into future military aircraft for both countries.
As much as it pains me to say it, he is correct about the Mirage 2000 being an unstable design. The Mirage Is an unstable design because the centre of gravity is further aft, so the jet naturally wants to pitch up, or negative pitch stability. The FBW prevents this and gives the pilot carefree handling. With Typhoon, when it’s subsonic it’s very unstable which the FBW sorts out, when it goes supersonic, the point of instability moves behind the centre of gravity creating a stable platform, which is why the Typhoon is an absolute beast when high and supersonic.… Read more »
Thank you for the correction!
Thats correct which is why a Typhoon pilot would want to use that strength but likewise the Rafale is better at lower altitudes so if either pilot was foolish enough to engage where their aircraft was weaker then they will fail.
Euh…. the Typhoon is more a European than a British fighter. Italian, Spanish and German an the UK paticipated in this fighter.
Was talking about Tempest. Rafale is comparable to Typhoon so it is fairly obvious France won’t buy Typhoon.
The program is back on track for now. (Link)
Back on track for 2050…!
The french will need something for the carrier and airforce at some point. Rafale will not last for ever.
Can’t imagine the Germans and Spanish would be happy wasting money on a navalised version of the 6th gen fighter that they can’t use.
Does France have any deep strike aircraft/drones?
If the F35Bs drags on maybe they might want to look at navalised Tempest or resurrect a supersonic Tempest-Harrier type hybrid even with Japan and Italy.
😂
OMG you can’t just glue Harrier/Pegasus idea onto another airframe.
The airframe has got to be designed with that VTOL approach in mind.
Pegasus was a single engine designed specifically to push thrust through steerable nozzles.
The way the F35B does it is totally different with a front lift fan. Even that really needed a longer airframe to keep the internal stores load at full length.
Hi SB, totally get that VSTOL is a different beast. I was wondering if there’s a high percentage of transferable commonality in avionics, radars, EW between the F35B, Typhoon, Tempest and not just in their weaponry?
And tongue in cheek, I was hoping there was some secret
Harrier II still being developed in a back shed somewhere in the UK…lol.
I think the last time glue was used would be on the De Havilland Mosquito?
Glue – redux bond etc – is widely used for aircraft skin. As it is a continuous connection it doesn’t have the localised stresses of rivets. The whole problem with Supersonic son of Harrier was the crazy amounts of heat that were generated. You can’t use the same high bypass ratios as Pegasus used. There are various stories as to wether this was ever solved…… Sure the radar, EW, avionics will have some high degree of commonality. But, and it is a big but, F35 gets its tactical advantage from being a seamless union of systems. So the integration is… Read more »
It can also do a pirouette of sorts!
https://news.usni.org/2022/12/15/f-35b-joint-strike-fighter-crashes-in-texas
Rafale is their asset for deep strike mission with nuclear deterence in particulary. It is planned that all specs about navalised version and nuke capabilities will be developped (and financed) by the french
This is always the issue with the French collaboration.
The plane has to be smaller, than others want and navalisable….
It will just be extended or new upgraded ones built.
Yes and the new 75,000 French Carrier design has had its elevators sized for a future FCAS significantly larger than the Rafale.
What is 6th gen please?
For that matter, what is 5th gen?
Wiki’s explanation is adequate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fighter_generations
I think you’ll find that all the Rafale’s avionics are already fifth generation, and the F 4 upgrade will improve the already fifth generation Rafale even further along, contrary to what people believe the Rafale is exceptional. Just for your information the French were the first to do data fusion; a complete and totally working avionics system of their fighter jets, that the US is trying to catch to, with not a lot of success.
lol, those French fighters better watch out for Harry Kane’s penalty. Its moving faster than a SAM.
😁
The ball was last seen passing the Orion capsule on re entry, 10 mins later it passed the international space station and is expected to make it to the back of the net for the next World Cup.
He missed!
Glad we’re getting on with the French up in the air and it was before the ⚽ match! Have to be a next time England 🏴!
Maybe the French should have invited the Germans or another nations jets along to boost their numbers for this exercise. They seem to work better when they have extras on duty.
Bit like the football where France had 14 men on the pitch if you include the referee (clearly paid off, blind and not objective) and the 2 linesmen.
Oh well
Do French Rafael jets have the automatic white flag dispenser or a reverse fleeing gear?
Ooh do you want a some sugar to sweeten up that bitter taste.
ha ha -made my day. I’m thankful I was not born Harry Kane. Shocker of a penalty attempt
You can always rely on the commenters here to pile hate on the french, nearly as much as they hate the scottish…
Really, are you so childish with those overly used racist comments ! you probably are still wearing a nappy; so you are still 2-years old, and I bet you are still suckling on your mother’s titty !
Will come in very handy if there are further threats identified in the far north. Maybe force incoming craft down over UK air space while Border Force aren’t looking and before any payload can be dumped on French beaches.
george should take this article down for a couple of days.
Nagh leave it. It’s very therapeutic. Lets us all let off steam
It is fine. At the end of the day, we were not good enough. England are a good team but when it comes to the top teams, they fall short.
Been that way for decades.
I’m supporting Morocco!
You have to give Morocco credit.
Probably had the toughest schedule to get to semi finals. They beat Belgium, Spain, Portugal and tied Croatia, a nation that definetly punches above its weight regularly.
It would be foolish to underestimate Morocco.
I would not be surprised to see Croatia vs Morocco in the final.
Absolutely. They’re spirit is superb, as is the relationship between manager and players.
An upset Surrey girl in my home yesterday. l don’t like an unhappy wife! Bad luck yesterday Mate!
We’re used to it! No country has fallen at the Quarter final stage more than us. 7 times now.
A Surrey girl!? Where in Surrey mate?
grew up in Godalming and I think for a wee while in Guilford. A loooong time ago.
I’m Guildford. Give her my best mate.
copy that Squire!😀
Nobody got the joke then? Ah well, never mind.🤔