Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace is currently visiting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
During this time, the Defence Secretary held several important bilateral meetings, including with HRH Prince Khalid bin Salman, the Minister for Defence of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and other members of the Saudi government.
The UK Government say that the visit provided an opportunity to reflect on the robustness and depth of the UK-Saudi partnership, particularly in light of the Defence Cooperation Plan that was signed in December 2022.
The Defence Secretary reiterated the United Kingdom’s unwavering commitment to collaborate with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and discussed ways to further strengthen the bilateral relationship in support of regional stability and security.
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace expressed his appreciation to Saudi Arabia for their recent commitment of $410 million in aid to Ukraine. This announcement was made during Foreign Minister HH Prince Faisal bin Farhan Al-Saud’s visit to Kyiv last weekend.
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:
“It was a pleasure to meet with HRH Prince Khalid bin Salman, the Minister for Defence of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and build on the long history of UK-Saudi defence collaboration. The Statement of Intent signed today will strengthen our Saudi-UK combat air relationship and our ability to address shared security challenges for decades to come, supporting Saudi Vision 2030 aspirations.”
According to this press release:
“The Defence Ministers signed a Statement of Intent (SOI) during the visit, which will initiate a Partnering Feasibility Study to explore how we can best position our decades long combat air relationship for the future. Both Governments confirmed a common desire for closer industrial collaboration, to develop key capabilities and boost prosperity in both nations, including in support of Saudi Vision 2030 objectives.”
Otherwise called “Operation please buy batch 2 Thypoon and sign up for Tempest”
Oh go on, you know you want to……
If they do maybe we should place a simultaneous order; the more built means the cheaper they get, so we could then replace Tranche 1s with 30-40 Tranche 3s.
Or just place the order ourselves for the RAF and invite Saudi to join in the order. Either way we should order more for ourselves!
No argument here Steve, an enhanced batch 3 with conformal fuel tanks, wide screen display and radar 2 should be ordered (40 plus) and all batch 2 a 3 upgraded to the same standard….
I know, but a man can dream…..
More Typhoons for the RAF would be a very wise move, further investment in Tempest would of course be a bonus!
I think extra F35B would be more useful , we get workshare anyway and the per plane cost is probably lower now than T3
The problem would be training enough pilots for any type of fighter.
Purchase cost per plane might be cheaper, but operating and maintenance costs make up the majority of the spend. I doubt the F-35 is as cheap to operate right now. We already have a plan to buy more F-35s over the next three years to reach 47 (48?), and an expectation to buy a second batch of 27 over the 8 years after that. It might be reasonable to buy extra but I can’t see us buying more until the the whole block 4 thing is sorted out, whereas the RAF’s 30 remaining Tranche 1 Typhoons will be retired by… Read more »
Got to love common sense, it’s so rare these days esp at the MoD
T3 Typhoon gives us more opportunity to develop systems (particularly sensors, comms, etc.) to go into Tempest ITAR-free, which means a long-term saving down the road and greater opportunities for long term export to Saudi of Tempest.
That’s why I’d go with T3 Typhoon, but acknowledge there’s a strong case for F-35B too.
Does that F35 cost include the engine?
Haha That’s extra…. Rolls Royce does the engines?
Only the uppity bit
The engine in the F35 is a Pratt & Whitney . The Typhoon’s engine is a RR EJ 200.
Why sneer at it ? It is important.
I’m not sneering Jack, just my aged jaundiced view of the world…..
Other more positive views of the Saudi regime are of course available.
I hope we cast and land a couple of big orders in Saudi, I really do. A new Tempest partner and a second batch of Typhoons.
Tempest is precisely what Saudi Arabia want, it will have the legs to reach deep into Iran and drop the hammer if needed….
Israel might have a few issues though!
We should take their money like we did the Iranians then ban them from having the kit… Only fair eh? I strongly believe they will be more foe than friend in the next decades. Oil gonna run out before world changes tact on energy. The whole region will be a tinder box
The saudis are cut off from the latest US weapons, Europe’s chances of fielding a 6gen capability before 2050 are slim. Russia’s aircraft are a joke, chinas aircraft are joke copies. Saudis have very good relations with Japan and Italy as well as the UK. If they want anything approaching a high end Airforce post 2040 I don’t see much option for them other than Tempest. I’m guessing most of the Middle East will be in the same boat as they missed out on F35 and the French can’t just keep flogging a dead horse in Rafale.
What is 6th gen capability?
Well he did tour the Warton factory last December and get briefed on BAE aviation projects.
Interesting on NewsNow there was a link to an article here headed Saudi Arabia to join Tempest project which connected to an error page however. Maybe you know something we don’t John.
I would love to say mate, but that ice-cream van with the blacked out windows and satellite dish on the roof is still parked outside my house…
Drives off every time I try and buy a 99🤔
It was a sensational eye catching trick eh? I seen it too… Because that would be big news and they would be guaranteed to buy more than their quota many more than the Italians and Brits combined probably and a close second to the Japanese… Of course we will say we are buying 150 but will be same scenario as 35B dripped fed
They just might!
02 MARCH 2023
“The United Kingdom has said that Saudi Arabia is not joining its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme, but is instead pursuing “a partnering feasibility study” to look at future cooperation.
The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) issued its statement following an announcement made by Saudi Arabian Defence Minister Khalid bin Salman, in which he said a declaration of intent (DOI) had been signed with his UK counterpart, Ben Wallace, to join FCAS.”
Now buy that 2nd batch of Typhoons 👍
Seconded and if possible thirded!😏
I wonder how HMG balance defence needs with KSA’a appalling human rights record?
They don’t. Saudi Arabia go unchecked as you don’t want to ruffle their feathers when they are very very rich.
Very very very very very rich….just look the other way ..nothing to see here kerrching kerrching…thank you very much sir pleasure doing business with you sir ..now dont forget you did promise not to use those nasty weapons on anyone nudge nudge wink wink …mind how you go…
Very true. Saudi petro – dollars has financed Islamic terrorism worldwide. Nearly all of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi. Kashoggi was removed from the Saudi embassy in Turkey in pieces. Many of the Wahhabist insurgents in Iraq were financed and sheltered in Saudi Arabia. These people are not our friends.
Agreed!
‘Ma’m, we do not have friends. We have interests‘.
Palmerston to Queen Victoria
Is that still true? The majority of the exporting was done under Fahd and we are now two Kings on. I know Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has said things that have been characterised as him being cool on strict Wahhabism, and we hear of “reforms” alongside reports of human rights abuses. I’ve no idea whether policy has actually changed along with the mood music, or indeed if policy is followed. I don’t like the argument that if we are friends we can persuade them, preferring the enemy of my enemy argument. Even Israel has time for that one, and… Read more »
As regards King Fahd/ Prince Bin Salman, it’s a case of different cheek, same arse.
“9/11 bombers were Saudi” as if a terrorist’s nationality was in any way relevant 🤷🏻♂️
I think you you’ll find many IRA terrorists of the Troubles would have been born in Northern Ireland, and consequently British citizens.
My point was that not only were they Saudi, but that they were backed by Saudi wealth, along with many of the jihadists in Iraq. I don’t believe that in a uni-party closed state such as Saudi Arabia that these activities would not have gone unnoticed. Many blind eyes were turned.
You’re correct, being born in NI then would have technically made those IRA terrorists British citizens. But they all would have considered themselves as Irish. As far as I know, at least since the GFA, anyone born in NI can apply for British or Irish citizenship.
Well they were backed by Bin Laden’s wealth, he was from a billionaire family. He was Saudi too, but you can’t blame an entire country for crimes of citizens acting on their own initiative.
What the IRA considered themselves to be is completely irrelevant, unless you want to appease them. They were British citizens… as were most of the 7/7 bombers (one being born in Jamaica), though again they wouldn’t have considered themselves as such.
Indeed there have been UK and indeed US Companies caught giving money to terrorists one French Company last year indeed was prosecuted for paying of ISIS for free access to its business. It doesn’t mean all French citizens or the Govt are ISIS supporters. There is indeed nuance whatever one’s possible suspicions about high end Saudi involvements in such matters.
The thing with Saudi I think, is that there is so many incredibly wealthy people with links to the government, eg the Royal House of Saud has 15,000 members, that it’s easy to mistake the actions of one or more individuals as being the official position of the government.
IRA was back by wealth in the US, bad people are everywhere so I don’t see the relevance to call KSA out on it.
I did it, as did others here because if they are friends , they are bad ones and make poor allies. They have financed terrorism worldwide and their human rights record is appalling. They are bad actors.
A few of the IRA terrorists were actually British one the daughter of an English aristocrat indeed.
That’s true. Rose Dugdale I think?
Total nonsense. If Bin Laden were backed by Saudi petronwealth he’d be able to afford an airforce not a plane ticked and a box cutter. Why do you think he was living in a cave?
The biggest backer of Islamic fundamental is was arguably the CIA who zfinanced their war against the Soviets
True. In hindsight a Pandora’s box was opened when the Afghans Mujahadeen were first financed and armed.
i think you implied it was relevant he merely stated fact?
Are you defending the Saudi regime then – or just their money just so I understand the context?
No he implied that the 9/11 bombers were relevant by raising it in the first place. It’s a fact they were Saudi, but totally irrelevant because they weren’t acting under the orders of the Saudi government.
No I’m not defending Saudi Arabia, it’s human rights record is poor. But criticise it for the things it’s responsible for, not for things it had no involvement in 🤷🏻♂️
I raised it because not only the fact that they were Saudi, but that the same country has and is responsible for financing terrorism worldwide, not just 9/11, but many of the jihadi attacks on British soldiers in Iraq and Iraqi citizens. We saw similar activity by Pakistan authorities during the conflict against the Taliban. They played both sides.
Nationality must mean something about someone’s identity, otherwise why do we have passports, citizenship, places of birth as an identifier etc. ?
We have passports and citizenship because we have nation states 🤦🏻♂️ Those states needs to know who their citizens are because of their rights and duties to those citizens and vice versa. That pretty obvious 🤷🏻♂️ And there were people in the U.K. raising money and sending funds to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, should the U.K. be condemned for ‘funding terrorism’? Of course not. • You cannot hold a country or it’s government responsible for actions taken independently by its citizens. • You cannot hold the citizens responsible for the actions of its government, though they are responsible for… Read more »
I comprehend a lot. But I remain unconvinced that there isn’t a link between those Saudi 9/11 bombers and the Saudi authorities. There is no way that that level of planning, execution and financing not only of them, but all the other attacks on coalition forces in Iraq happened without some tacit knowledge or support from a Saudi ministry somewhere. The 9/11 bombers and other insurgents may not have had official Saudi blessing for their actions, but they weren’t really prevented either. It’s a fairly moot point to the families of the dead and maimed servicemen as to whether the… Read more »
Well you might be incapable and not competent to of imagine or plan such an attack without state help, but plenty of other people have achieved seemingly incredible events over the years without the help of government.
So you think everytime that someone gave Bin Laden’s dad a contract to build something, they said “don’t forget to put x% aside to fund terrorist attacks”?… 🤦🏻♂️
But I suspect I’m wasting my time pointing out how illogical your accusations are and trying to reason against your paranoia/xenophobia.
There’s nothing illogical about it. I’m neither paranoid nor xenophobic. You don’t have a monopoly on the truth Sean, any discussion with you always ends up with you making ad hominem attacks because you can’t seem to accept that someone may have a view that doesn’t exactly chime with yours. I never said that Mohammad Atta et al were representing the entire Saudi nation. You twisted my words into something else. But yeah, putting x% aside in finance is how these groups get their funds. The difference is that if it happens on these shores it’s a crime. I don’t… Read more »
I assume you blame Jamaica for 7/7 attack as although it “may not have had official Jamaican blessing for their actions, but they weren’t really prevented either” given that Germaine Lindsay was born there? Thats the logic you applied to 9/11 and Saudi Arabia, that’s you’re phrasing. I’m just intolerant of stupidity and ignorance, I admit it’s my worst character flaw 🤷🏻♂️ However as a scientist I know there is only one version of the truth, when you start accepting others then you get into flat-earth territory. Views aren’t valid just because someone holds them fervently. As for misrepresenting, you’re… Read more »
No, I don’t blame Jamaica, show me where I said that. We can have debate without resorting to personal attacks, my position on Saudi is more nuanced than you are twisting it into and I expect it is shared by a great deal of people. Ignorance and stupidity are encapsulated in that reply you have just given, you being a scientist has no relevance to my point, now go and deploy your emojis somewhere else.
Well said Shaun 😂sorry sean
9//11 that was 25 years ago, that’s a generation, have you been to KSA or do you know anyone from KSA?
No, but the ramifications of that event are still with us. I haven’t been to Russia either, but it doesn’t mean that my view on the appalling invasion and destruction in Ukraine is somehow wrong.
So you judge an entire people by the acts of their government? Oh dear!
No. I’m judging the Saudi authorities who for years have run with the hare and hunted with the hounds. They play both sides. Those financial streams to those nihilistic terrorist groups would not be so prevalent but for official Saudi ‘blind eyes ‘.
Zero proof.
The terrorists that you claim Saudi Arabia supports loathe the House of Saud, regarding them as apostates to Islam 🤦🏻♂️
Worse than that, he judges an entire people on the acts of some individuals who are unconnected to their government 🤦🏻♂️
No Sean, that’s not what I said. Don’t twist what I wrote.
It is shocking and depressing we are getting involved with them, just got a quick buck when most of the money won’t flow back to the treasury anyway.
So could you list those countries you or others on this site dislike and should therefore not trade with. As trading with someone obviously implies approval of all their actions ? It’s just if you could do that we’d all be able to calculate how much our economy would shrink and how many people would lose their jobs.
Our government actively promoting our sales to them is absolutely indicating they approve of them.
Be easier to name those who fit to be traded with. I guess it will have to be a line drawn in the massive grey area that 80% of the globe fall in. Wish anyone luck on that one.
Yep plus I wonder what other countries think about us chopping bits off schoolkids to satisfy transgender activists ?
I’m not excusing their record, but “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” most certainly applies to our relationship with KSA.
👍
Yep, nothing new there, we supported the Soviet Union in WW2, knowing full well that Stalin was nothing but a mass murdering tyrant….
Another Hitler in fact, but as Rob said “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”
In the case of Saudi Arabia, they have a new heightened importance, as they are staring across the Gulf at Iran, part of the new axis of Evil that’s forming up.
That and all their lovely ‘potential’ Thypoon /Tempest money they have in those deep, deep robe pockets…..
Imagine them and other neighbour states falling into the Russian sphere of influence, it doesn’t bear thinking about unfortunately.
I agree with you.
But it is the old sphere of influence argument.
If you alienate them they simply end up in the Franco German sphere buying their products instead.
So we may as well keep them on board and sell them Typhoon & Tempest. TBH having them on board as a financial contributor to the development of Tempest really would be quite a big deal.
Germany has an arms embargo on KSA. Many of the MBDA products that have components made in Germany are either banned or have to go through parliamentary scrutiny for approval.
Then it is the Franco sphere…..
So we should sell to them because if we dont someone else will so it better to have thei money in our coffers- regardless of how the weapons are used.
Pity we didnt have massive arms contracts with Hitler in1938 we could have made a killing …lieterally…still I suppose we made up for it by supplying Stalin afterwards
Well the US did of course indeed US Companies built as many vehicles for Germany as it did for the Allies, only when they entered the war did morality come into the equation.
You’ll get your way after the next election. Labour (The Guardian) is very keen on an ‘ethical’ foreign policy. The last time it was tried nobody outside cared a rats arse. Apart from every other arms exporter in the world who happily filled the gap in the market. By the time it was reversed half our defence industry was gone never to return. But i’m sure next time will be different.
Who cares. They hate Iran. Iran is now in bed with China and Russia and arguably more dangerous than Saudi
Iran dominating the middle east would be catastrophic , a nuclear armed bunch of nutters. Saudi rulers like the luxury, they wouldn’t press the nuclear button over a love of Allah. Iran zealots on the other hand …..
The Government apply the “nothing to see here, move along please” rule..
Human rights issues only come into play when the state in question hasn’t got any folding money!
At least this gives us influence and we get funds in return, the alternative dubious moral high ground is they buy from China, we have zero influence and get no funds for things like NHS or oversea dev fund.
You still think HMG give a rat’s backside about human rights ? 😅
The US keeps untried people at Guantanamo for twenty years, why fuss over one and not the other?
Because the article is about HMG and KSA. not the USA maybe?
Dear me,
I thought that human rights were about a matter of principle.
Absolutely correct, a fundamental part of being human. My only point is that Guantanamo is not part of this article.
Cheers
If it wasn’t for oil Saudi Arabia wouldn’t even be a blip on the radar screen. A gut rot country.
Except that…
• it could make using either the Persian Gulf or Red Sea difficult if it wanted to
• it’s the spiritual centre of Islam
There’s a good reason why the Gulf is known as the arsehole of the world. My brother spent 5 years in Qatar and 5 years in Saudi – apart from a few he had few good words to say about the Gulf Arab.
I know people that have had better experiences of the Persian Gulf.
But either way, anecdotes about it don’t alter the fact that Saudi would be strategically important even without the oil.
And the strategic accessing the Mediterranean/Indian Ocean via the Suez. It’s as very mixed shopping bag of Western, Russian and Chinese equipment and political and military influences.
Where did the other article about Saudi joining an aircraft program go?
MoD issued a press notice saying despite the princes twitter comments this was just a first step not full admission. Probably want the other countries to sign off before they can say they have officially joined.
I was thinking that too. The Tempest article has flown off… already… like grease lightning!
I definitely saw an article on here that looks like it got removed (404 when clicked on) that said Saudi Arabia signed up to the tempest programme. 🤔
Clearly the men in suits knocked on the digital door.
Same. It is still up on the NewsNow website.
MoD clarified that the Saudis hadnt formally joined with the signing of the letter of intent, it had instead begun a 12 month review period.
Yes it will be very controversial so I am sure it will take a fair amount of time, discussion, testing of the water and manipulating the details before they could be eased in but undoubtedly suits both (all) sides. They will demand input and work share that’s a certainty as they are determined on a post oil industrial and technological base. The French won’t be happy as they have been working hard to prize the Saudis into their military technological camp. But as said elsewhere here the Germans are not happy to cooperate with them so in this case their… Read more »
Yep, me too!
Sensible geopolitical move. Iran is cozying up to Russia and China and Biden has been positively derogatory about them, for good reason.
That being said, Saudi provides stability in a critical region, which will continue to be pivotal for world trade for decades to come.
Moreover, if the petrodollar tanks and countries look for an alternative commodities based currency it would be good to have an ally on the inside we can work with because I’m not sure Russia and China will be so welcoming towards us…
Some of their oil money would be handy to fund the Tempest project. Can we sell them a few frigates too.