The Royal Navy is seeking expressions of interest from industry to develop and supply a countermeasure system for the Astute, Vanguard, Dreadnought and future SSN(R) class submarines.
The new system will be known as the ‘Next Generation Countermeasure’ (NGCM) and falls with the wider ‘Underwater Defensive Aid Suite’ (UDAS) programme.
According to the contract description, the duration is estimated to be for a period of 6 years.
“Expressions of Interest are sought from Potential Providers that have the capability to develop and supply a countermeasure system for Astute, Vanguard, Dreadnought and SSN(R) Class Submarines. The system will be known as the Next Generation Countermeasure (NGCM) and falls with the wider Underwater Defensive Aid Suite (UDAS) delivery Programme. The NGCM project is to be delivered in accordance with the Statement of Requirement (SOR) and Systems Requirements Document (SRD, which will be issued with the Invitation to Negotiate (ITN).
The Contract is also to provide:
– Trials & Testing
– Combat System Integration
– Initial Support Solution including Equipment & Technical Support
– An initial Training Needs Analysis (TNA) and follow-on training packages
– Post Design Services as required
Potential Providers are to note that in order to fulfil this requirement, the chosen supplier will be exposed to and required to safeguard nationally sensitive information/data bearing a security classification up to and including SECRET UK EYES ONLY level.”
The value of the contract is £100mn and it has a start date of March 2025 and an end date of March 2031.
Interesting, lots of investment happening.
Unfortunately interesting from a theoretical point only as we will be unlikely to know what the countermeasures are barring only from a general perspective!
AA
There are existing system but as Jonathans says there is a lot of good investment ATM.
Counter measures for torpedos have always interested me. It seems like the perfect attack weapon as there doesn’t appear to be a whole lot of counter measures, outside spoofing noise signature. No active defenses that are around for air launched missiles.
I wonder if they have the equivalent of ‘ecm’, returning sonar pulses and so on?
A towed decoy might be of use but if you are already towing a sonar string, a bit tricky.
The Americans tried a small anti-torpedo torpedo for use on the carriers but I think it didnt work too well.
AA
It’s always been beyond me that we can build missile defence systems able to knock out super sonic missiles and even artillery shells but we can’t build an anti torpedo torpedo to knock out something travelling barley 40 knots.
Same but guessing no real focus on it, as when was the last time a ship got sunk by one, I would guess Falklands and before that vietnam maybe.
Anti ship missiles had not really been invested in until recently as again the threat wasn’t perceived to be there
2010 a South Korean corvette was sunk by torpedo almost certainly fired from North Korean sub.
Maybe the issue in the underwater/torpedo world is more to do with being able to determine with sufficient accuracy the precise position hence an accurate track for an incoming torpedo and of course accurate positioning would be essential for the terminal guidance (seeker). For that terminal phase I would think that accuracy to within a metre would be needed. A torpedo might be moving much more slowly than an anti-ship missile but if the sensors available are only able to get far lower positional accuracy vs a good radar that might make it very hard to hit. Also, something underwater isn’t going to be able to do high-g final course corrections to hit a target so getting the incoming track accurate out to a reasonable range in order to plot the right course for the intercepting/defence torpedo would seem quite important so that the anti-torpedo torpedo doesn’t have to do too much fast last-minute terminal manoeuvring.
For me the bottom line is that there are a lot of very smart people in the defence industry and a good torpedo defence system for surface ships would go a long way to reducing the threat to them from submarines hence be a high value product so if it hasn’t been done it is almost certainly because there are some real fundamental difficulties that have not yet been overcome.
Spearfish will do double that. How are you going to localise and target the torpedo in murky water in order to shoot it down? The main focus is on stealth anyway, which doesn’t lend itself to active sonar (which would help an enemy determine your position).
Your last sentence is for me one of the advantages of an ‘ATT’, Ian. The active sonar removed from the vessel onto the anti-torpedo in its attack phase.
It’s primarily about detection range and the ability to get a counter weapon into position to intercept a incoming torpedo before it gets to you.
In this environment the only detection medium you have is sound. Either passive – listening, or active – pinging. Both modes have advantages/disadvantages. what will be common to both is a lack of detection range, yes their detection ranges are short, thus the ability to perform high g manoeuvres.
This is why heavyweight weapons -Spearfish etcuy are wire guided, very fast and have a long range.
Good description. If it was easy it would be done already. So main thing just now I’m guessing is to fool the incoming with stuff that makes a more attractive target than the submarine. Or gives the impression of the submarine while the actual submarine has moved out the way.
Scary stuff being under water.
I went on the Spanish defin submarine in toravieja ( butchered that name probably) for an hour and that was enough for me
Yes mate, that’s basically the idea, while you make like a very quiet thing, theoretically said incoming torpedo will hopefully not gain contact on you and eventually run out of go go juice.
SSK’s are small in comparison to a SSN/SSBN. The SM museum down in Gosport has an old A class SSK you can have a walk through, gives you a feeling of what its like.
Also water is great for transmitting energy so any blast from an active defence would be more effective in water than air.
Same here. The convention quoted is that the sea environment contains many sound sources, not improved from a detection viewpoint if you’re part of fleet / escort group, coupled with slow approach attack prior to high close-quarters terminal speed. That said, necessity eventually dictates and solutions, even partial, would become worthwhile as threats increased. Early anti-air missiles were hardly that! but matured with perseverance. Maybe combining vessel, detection and weapon networking will prove fruitful.
There are some, some frigates have small torpedoes on mortar launchers which are fired to intercept incoming torpedoes. Soviets had some nuclear tipped torpedoes that were specifically for intercepting torpedoes on top of the more famous carrier killer ones, though no captain would ever use them as they were just as likely to sink their own boat in the blast.
I’m guessing no more fizzy bubbles 😀
The question will be if any of this investment will make it to the front line. This appears to be a proof of concept investment rather than an actual order.
I know a wholesale supplier in Peckham who can get his hands on a job-lot of “Whale Song” relaxation CDs – perfick for mimicking bio when on a sneaky in the Barents sea
Luverly jubbly 😉⚓😉
😎
I think it works best when lubricated with Peckham Spring?
Its the underwater UFO’s threat. The US Navy has been bothered by them too.
Didn’t they loose 1 down the Abyss USS James Cameron I think
A start date of March 2025?? We will see!
Off-topic. but this looked like a hell of a ride yesterday
Something hiding between the Isle of Man and Anglesey?
Looks like something my kid drew at nursery 😂😂😂😂
Absolutely great for the UK, however as an ex employee they can’t find the trades personnel anywhere and those they do have are having to pay accommodation, living allowance, fuel leaving them with all practically minimum wage as expenses back home need to be paid also. Theres a huge pot of money been given to these companies and agencies. My 1 question only is simply ‘ WHO IS GETTING THIS £££££ as the trades folk don’t see any of it?
Regrettably, always a good question on a general big business front. Answer usually comes down to Principals, Investors, Middlemen, Bankers, Lawyers…….
So I guess this is giving money to someone who already does it. Would be a very difficult area for new players to get foot in door. Situation normal.
Old boys club. As corrupt as it gets.
Well it says it’s open to industry that can put a design and show that they can build it.
If someone has a better idea and shows it can work they will be considered I would think.
It’s a specialist area really. You could probably count on one hand how many people sit in the bath and think up countermeasures for submarines and they probably work for companies already.
How many companies will meet the security requirements to be able to apply?
Cant exactly open it up to the general market!!
So are we looking at ultra, Thales etc. was one of the big U.K. defence companies in this area (maybe ultra) recently sold and suspected to be dismantled. Maybe some new starts will come from disgruntled ex employees.
Time will tell what becomes on this
The safe guards on Ultra are about as stringent as I have seen.
Update on the proposed acquisition of Ultra Electronics Holdings plc by Cobham Ultra Acquisitions Limited – GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
Small ATTs with min range & high speed (via rocket propulsion), a smart sensor suite, a small miss to kill warhead that can fit in the decoy tubes makes sense.
On the one side we speak about investment yet today another British defence company Pearson Engineering has been sold of to Rafael. Although the company is hoping for a brighter future we all know what happens; buy the company, own the designs, close the company, build it themselves and sell back to the parent nation whilst keeping the profit.
Another one!
It doesn’t matter our economy is screwed now anyway. Time to leave.
Shame if you don’t have anywhere to leave to. Maybe we should all become bankers. They seem to be gaining from the mini budget.
It’s like the truss government thought well I’m not going to win an election so f it. Let’s go full crazy.
Johnathan pie did a hilarious video about the budget.
https://youtu.be/w-V5FVludFk
That is the plus side though. That they won’t have a chance of winning the election, and all the damage they’ve done can be undone. It’s a shame about not getting the boost to defence spending if they lose but that’s completely overshadowed by everything else. Of course Kier could still announce a defence commitment.
But why do you care I thought you were leaving ?
I care for the people in the uk that have to bear the consequences of living under tory rule. Unlike the conservatives I have empathy. (You might need to look that word up)
empathy
/ˈɛmpəθi/
Learn to pronounce
noun
Oh so that’s what it means thank you.
When are you leaving ?
No problem. When my contracts up in a few months.
Genuinely bon voyage. 👍👍
Excellent. Cheerio. With an attitude like that it’s a positive. Do you need a ticket or is it all arranged?
So can you let your boy Starmer know what a woman is. Asking for a friend. 😉
Yes because knowing/not knowing how to define a woman is obviously FAR more important than being competent at looking after the economy. 🤦♂️
I think Mrs Starmer might disagree. 😂😂
What? I don’t have a boy called starmer.
I stated the fact that he and the Labour Party were calling for defence increases well before the tories thought about it and before some vague 2030 promise.
I’m not some one party life voter. I will vote for whoever presents the best solutions to the current problems at the time. As all people should.
If folks stopped voting out of some misguided sense of loyalty to the same folks all the time and instead voted for who is best at making their situation better, MPs may actually work harder to try and gain as many votes as possible by making policies that appeal to broad range of people and improve the futures of the whole population.
Or we can make silly jokes about what’s a woman while the government make most people lives more difficult than they were.
That’s not how you come across. If you want to give cheap shots you’d best be ready to get cheap shots. I came here to read opinions on defence I can go to plenty of other sites if I want a political debate. As could you. The balls in your court.
Bye. Don’t come back now.😎
👍
I would add to the wishlist, a mast that rises out of the sail with Starstreak/LMM Martlet, to protect the sub on the surface. Probably during SF embark/disembark or if the sub has to surface due to a breakdown/accident.
That was looked at many years ago with blow pipe. It would probably be easier to have someone shoulder launch if the need really arises.
The name of it escapes me just now.
There are the machine gun mounts on the top of the sail.
There are probably a ton of other reasons why it’s never been done.
I seem to remember that the Israelis fitted the blowpipe system to their subs, back in the 70s/80s. Don’t mistake MoD complacency/inertia for a cunning plan.
Kingfisher is interesting for potential anti torpedo defence for surface ships with a five inc gun…with decoy rounds but also the possibility of a hard kill anti torpedo option as well as sensor options and hard kill ASW rounds…if it comes off it would turn the T26s 5inch gun into a great all round ASW defensive and offensive weapon system, with great utility.
Off-topic: Recommend viewing the movie ‘Greyhound’ sometime, if anyone has an opportunity. WWII drama, inspired by real events, about convoy duty in the Atlantic v. U-boats. Starring American actor Tom Hanks (for the benefit of a non-US audience, Hanks was also lead in a movie entitled ‘Saving Private Ryan’); seemed to be a reasonably accurate portrayal of an episode in the Battle of the Atlantic. Would be interested in submariners’ perspective. Thanks.
With the imminent take over of Ultra Electronics by AVENT, the IT dept is going to be busy with firewalls and access restrictions. Ultra will be involved in this.