According to the latest UK Defence Intelligence update dated 17 May 2023, the airspace over the Russia-Ukraine border has seen an increase in conflict over the past week.

An incident occurred on 13 May 2023 when four Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) aircraft, two advanced combat jets and two helicopters, crashed in Russia’s Bryansk region.

It is strongly suggested that these aircraft were shot down, signifying an escalation in the aerial conflict.

On 3 May 2023, Ukraine made a significant advance in the conflict. For the first time, Ukrainian forces successfully shot down a KILLJOY (Kh-47M2 Kinzhal) air-launched ballistic missile. The Defence Intelligence update noted, “Subsequently, Russia has prioritised attempting to neutralise Ukraine’s improved air defence capabilities, but in the process has likely lost several more KILLJOY.”

In an unexpected twist, the KILLJOY system, previously deemed as ‘undefeatable’ by Russian President Vladimir Putin, has demonstrated vulnerabilities.

The Defence Intelligence update noted, “The apparent vulnerability of KILLJOY is likely a surprise and an embarrassment for Russia: Russian President Vladimir Putin has touted the system as undefeatable.”

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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100 COMMENTS

  2. Maybe it was just the Russia air defence system that was unable to intercept a killjoy and hubris meant the Russians interpreted that as no one could. So possibly also says something about the vulnerability of Russian IADs ( although it’s stretching it a bit).

    As the reality is the militaries tend to test there systems against their own and allied systems it can trap them into assumptions..it looks very much like Russia made some big assumptions on their systems being more effective than they are…and conversely the west does seem to have made assumptions that potential enemies had capabilities equal to them….turns out it’s better to be a glass half empty type than a glass half full type when making assumptions about the effectiveness of your enemy.

    • And meanwhile, NATO is getting tons of valuable real-time info on Russian military ‘capabilities’ (I use the term loosely).

      • Pretty sure NATO has written off Russia as a threat at this stage. Ok Russia could hit any NATO city as most NATO countries have little to no air defenses (just look at the UK) but outside that they would be demolished in any land war.

        • Or in the air and sea. Also remembering any air attack on the Uk would need to be made over the sea, therefore AEW then backed up by a handful of type 45 and some CAMM armed frigates as well as the RAF would likely make it pretty hard work…although it would be wise to have some land based IAD components as well….

        • Seriously little to no air defence?
          RAF fylingdales, radar sites around the UK. Most of which have been updated.
          QRA typhoons armed with meteor and asraam.
          That’s a reasonable ability. What we lack is ground based air defence for critical national infrastructure and defence sites. Would like to see HMG ordering in ground based ASTER 30NTs and land ceptor batteries to provide a reasonable ABMD and cruise missile defence capability.
          However cost is everything and there is only a low risk. Russia could strike the UK but NATOs response would destroy Russia militarily in very quick order.
          The Russian military have shown themselves to be incapable of offensive actions and unable to coordinate (probably because of a lack of training) combined arms warfare tactics to deliver an overall strategic victory.
          China is a different prospect and a potential enemy in the 2030s the UK and the Western world needs to prepare to confront.

          • If Russia was going to do a missile attack on the UK, for example in retaliation for weapon supply to Ukraine, it would launch them from subs in the North sea. There would be zero chance to get the typhoons into the air to intercept them before they hit.

      • I believed they got lot of valuable real time information at the weekend in Kiev when the Russians used a Kinzhal to take out a Patriot system.

        • It didn’t take it out. Was a near miss. Demonstrates why fire and scoot is important even for mobile air defence units. Sending a disposable asset like a drone or cruise missile in to reveal the launcher location for a follow-up hypersonic strike. Probably one of Russia’s few examples of a working strategy seen so far in the war.

          • Apart from anything else these systems are modular and spread out. Radars and controllers are not colocated with the launchers and resupply is similarly elsewhere, Which bit of the system was damaged is the real question.

    • I read and I believe I alluded to it here somewhere that there had been doubts expressed about these missiles in the military media (as indeed there has been about the Zircon). The missile has its roots in a previous Soviet origin missile and yet has claimed to have been developed in half the time of its forbear despite the claimed extra sophistication. Equally Putin himself a year apart gave very different claims as to the missiles capabilities doubling its claimed speed for example which was already a good bit faster than its original base design despite being essentially the same size. The initial claims might have been believable with improved technology over the years but to suddenly claim up to mach 10 to 13 performance suddenly, simply seems totally implausible in the mind of anyone but the gullible but hey maybe the designers told him what he wanted to hear or he told them what he wanted and they simply told him what he wanted to hear who knows.

      But doubling the speed and indeed extending the range of a ‘hypersonic’ missile the same apparent size of its predecessor truly seems like stretching the laws of physics into Star Trek territory. But then they do add in the range of the launch aircraft so maybe it’s smoke and mirrors there too. Fact is this is quite an unsophisticated upgrade to a deeply unsophisticated original using hypersonic as a buzz word ( mostly created by them mind) when it performs pretty much as previous ‘ballistic’ missiles (rather than a glide body), already do using similar old school propulsion system at an overstated marginally higher speeds than those predecessors. So yes we really shouldn’t be surprised that they have been found out and are far from invulnerable or even a Great Leap Forward as I suspect US equivalents (and likely Chinese) will actually turn out to be eventually. Russia truly is becoming Emperor’s clothes other than perfecting the art of hype and churning through cannon fodder.

      • The Kinzhal is a development of the “short” tactical range IskanderM ballistic missile. It is heavier and wider in diameter, though slightly shorter. It is air launched by the Mig-31, as shown in the picture above. From reports I’ve seen, the missile is launched from above 50,000ft. It was supposed to have a range limited by treaty agreement to 500km. But the war in Ukraine has shown this to be false. Whereas Russia claim that Kinzhal has a range closer to 2000km. Based on the Kinzhal stats, Iskander probably has a range between 750 and 1000km.

        Being launched in thinner air along with the kinetic energy imparted by the Mig, will save on the energy lost lifting the missile off the ground and punching through the sound barrier. Though I doubt it reaches speeds of Mach 9 to 10, probably closer to 6 to 7. The Iskander is said to reach an apogee of 50km and fly a quasi-ballistic (flattened) path before tipping over towards its target, the Kinzhal is said to do the same. This is to allow them to manoeuvre inflight, thereby supposedly throw off the interception from surface to air missiles. Reports from Ukraine have said the missiles follow a standard ballistic path, which makes them much easier to intercept by the Patriot batteries.

        If Russia decide that they need to use a tactical nuke to regain the initiative. The Iskander/Kinzhal will likely be the delivery system.

        • As I was saying on here, about a year ago, it would be totally humiliating if Russia’s tactical nucs were rendered ineffective by any NATO system…..it would be the ultimate loss of face.

          • Indeed it would, but the experience to date in UKraine is that the tactical nuke’s delivery systems are working well when delivering conventional munitions. With what looks to be a stepped up campaign, it seems that several targets are getting hit every night, some very big.

          • Give it a rest.

            I totally believe in free speech and applaud George for not shutting you down.

            Sadly in Russia you don’t have free speech…..

            But honesty: we all just laugh at your posts.

          • Yeah he is just a comical nob jockey, who provides the light ent! But still too cowardly to confirm and defend his fascist views.

          • “Give it a rest”? Was my post wrong?

            Why should George ban me? I am basically just putting an alternate view. Trust me, if I stepped out of line I’d be gone.

            Love to know what your “we all” claim is based on.

          • Give it a rest”? Was my post wrong?”

            Well yes it was, just more Russian garbage.

            “We all is based upon anyone who isn’t a Russian shill.

          • So the Kalibre and Kh-101/2 successfully attacking targets all over Ukraine for months is is wrong and “Russian garbage”?

            So “We all” is a figment of your imagination.

            Sometimes I despair at the ignorance and bigotry my comments often generate from a limited number of posters here.

          • Oh we know that Russian missiles have been attacking Ukrainian targets for months, it’s just that the Russian interpretation of targets is schools, hospitals and housing.

            The bigotry and ignorance are embedded in your sneering contempt for Ukraine, the figments of your imagination are laid bare in the debased, noxious Kremlin fiction you rely on.

            You really don’t know the meaning of despair. Or of anything else.

          • ” With what looks to be a stepped up campaign, it seems that several targets are getting hit every night, some very big.”

            Yeah. Schools, hospitals, apartment complexes, shopping centres, and in a move that sums up just how depraved the Russian mindset is, the hometown of the Ukrainian Eurovision entry.

          • Some school etc when hit a few days ago creates a 3.4 shock on the Richter Scale.

            The Russian strategy seem to have been to not attack military dumps/stores warehouses etc well behind the front lines for several months, creating a false sense of security. Then attack them now, when they are topped up ready for the counter offensive.

          • Working well? Really? Last few weeks the majority have been intercepted by Patriot systems.
            You keep lobbing missiles. Ukraine will keep intercepting them. NATO has plenty of GBAD systems we can donate to the brave people of Ukraine facing the Ruskfascists.
            Care to condemn the illegal invasion of democratic and sovereign Ukraine Johnski?
            Care to condemn the wholesale use of rape as a weapon of terror?
            Care to condemn the massed kidnapping and enforced relocation of Ukraine children to your “mother Russia”?
            Care to condemn the illegal bombing of civilian hospitals, schools and residential premises which by the way constitute a war crime?
            Care to condemn the looting of goods from Ukrainian property to take back to poverty stricken “mother Russia”?
            Care to condemn the murdering of soldiers and combatants who have already surrendered? Which by the way constitutes a breach in the Geneva convention and a war crime?
            I think on last count there have been 3500 record war crimes committed by your lauded Ruskfascist Nazi scum armed forces. The International court sitting in the Hague are building up massive dossiers of evidence. All will be investigated. All will be published. All will be prosecuted. It’s just a matter of time.
            What do you think to that Johnski?

          • Ha ha !! The irony of you looking for evidence when you’re an evidence free zone yourself.

        • There is no evidence that the Iskander’s range is greater than 500km.

          The increased range of the Kinzhal is down to reducing its fuel burn. Pretty much as you say, due to the Mig-31K (or a Tu-122M3 for a shorter range but three up not just one) lifting it to the thinner air at near 60,000′, launching it at over M2.5 onto a flight path up to even thinner air over 100,000′ in which it cruises till it reaches the target area. This is why the Iskander’s speed of M6-7 is upped on the Kinzhal to M10-12.

          The control surfaces are fixed. The only way it can maneuver is engine thrust vectoring, so the rocket motor burns all the way from launch to impact. This reduces range as it needs to keep enough fuel in reserve to reach the target, so, when used under maximum range, the unburnt fuel adds to the destruction. Its near vertical descent performs evasive maneuvers, seeming to be corkscrew like.

          One of the side effects of the Ukraine war was the discovery that the Iskander carried decoys so can release chaff and flares and jammers so its likely that Kinzhal does as well.

          Had either Iskander or Kinzhal flown a ballistic path, as you say, then Ukraine’s S-300 should have been able to intercept them.

          • One of the side effects, albeit a positive one is the discovery by the West that Russian military is absolute wank and we have been worried for many years about fuck all! The only reason we still think the submarine threat is dangerous is due to the fact they Hecht yet been tested against western systems in a kinetic way, and if that was to happen they would go the way of the Russian AF and Army.

            As for chaff and decoys, that would be you then my little troll. Anyway, any condemnation of this illegal invasion of Ukraine by Putin yet?

          • Hecht? Should say haven’t or in Nazi Russian “havenotski” a bit like they describe their logistics, combined arms training, skill set and professionalism….

          • You know as much about thrust vectoring, control surfaces and ballistic paths as my dog does.

          • You’d be surprised at what my dog can do, he’s an excellent judge of character, something You’d know nothing about. Daveyb is a subject matter expert, watching you trying to explain control surfaces and thrust vectors to him is akin to watching a dolphin at a tree climbing competition.

          • Well read. Straight off the FSB handlers information page given to you in Ruskfascist Russian to translate into English for us. Yawn.
            Facts are they can and are bring intercepted by Patriot which is a 20+ year old GBAD. Means more modern systems like SM3-6, Aster 30NT etc should easily be able to intercept these flying dustbins.

          • The US is motivated to show that the Patriot was not signifivantly hit by the Kinzhal. Its whole GBAD system strategy depends on it. The ramifications if it was are enormous. Forget the effect on this war but do you really expect the US to voluntarily issue a report that might threaten the reputation of the Patriot?

          • Denial isn’t a river in Egypt John. Your much vaunted missiles aren’t what you were told they are. Any news on the fate of the Russian ‘scientists ‘ who developed these ‘wonder weapons ‘ and are now being ‘investigated ‘ for treason as the claims they made turned out to be rubbish.

            There’s a moral for you there John if you’re wise enough to spot it .

          • You are doing some serious projecting right there. The ramifications are enormous but for Russia. The Kinzhal was supposed to be this wonder weapon that Putin himself claimed was unstoppable but now he has been made to look like a fool as there is no evidence that they are any more effective than the other soviet era designed weapons.

            Could personal embarrassment be the reason that Russian scientist that worked in their hypersonic program have recently been arrested and charged with treason?

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/17/russia-scientists-treason-hypersonic

          • With regards to the Iskander’s range, I’m not so sure. Last year Russia attacked the aircraft engine repair facility in Lutsk. There were some reports saying that it was attacked by cruise missiles, whilst there were others saying it was a ballistic missile. Judging by the accuracy, as it was a direct hit, this would have been by a modern missile such as Kalibr or Iskander.

            If it was Iskander, then it would have had to be launched from Belarus to reach Lutsk. As the nearest Russian border is over 500km away. We know Russia fired missiles from the Gomel airfield in Belarus at Ukraine. Which is around 430km from Lutsk, so that’s a distinct possibility.

            However, within the same month Russia fired missiles at the aircraft repair facility in Lviv. Which is over 550km away from Gomel. Again there were reports of both cruise and ballistic missiles being being used.

            I honestly do believe Iskander has a longer range than the advertised 500km. Previous evidence of its use by Russian forces in Syria, where they fired the missiles from Hmeimim airfield to Eastern Syria suggest this. Which is a range well over 500km. These firings were tracked by USAF E3 Sentries and RAAF E7 Wedgetails.

            Whether or not Kinzhal can reach speeds greater than Mach 10, is purely conjecture. As it has not been independently verified. Though I’m pretty certain Ukraine and now NATO know its true speed, as it would have been recorded by their air defence search and tracking radars. I know that Patriot automatically records all its firing events, following the Gulf War 1 friendly fire incident. So there will be evidence of its recorded flight time and profile.

            The Iskander that the Kinzhal is based upon, is believed to reach speeds of Mach 6 to 7. The USAF tracking the missiles in Syria believe it reaches Mach 5.9 at engine burnout, i.e. when its used up all its fuel. Images show that Kinzhal uses a similar engine to the Iskander and flies the same profile. Though it gets a boost from the host aircraft and its speed will be faster. It won’t be the publicised Mach 10+.

            It was the Ukrainians who reported the Iskander/Kinzhal followed a ballistic path to the target. They said it made it easier to take out. The Iskander/Kinzhal does use exhaust thrust vectoring, but predominantly for the boost phase. As far as we know, the rocket motor is not dual pulse. So it hasn’t a second reserve of fuel and that it cannot stop the burn and then restart again. So for distant targets it must use the four external fins for control.

          • Thank you for that constructive answer.

            Clearly the 500km claimed range was to stay within the now discarded INF rules. I suspect that as Russia was still adhering to them at the time of the Syrian mission(s) you mention, that if it had flown over limit the US would have raised it (as they did with the Iskander-K cruise missile), I can’t remember them doing so. Clearly now the gloves are off Russia could be loading them with foe example new fuel formulations to increase performance.

            I agree with your conjecture comment, virtually all the information on both rockets out in the wild can be called either that or perhaps manufacturer promotional material or even ‘puff’. But you are right, we just don’t know and I don’t think anyone is telling us straight. Either of us could be on the money.

            It is however logical to assume that a similar amount of fuel burnt in these rockets on their very different initial part of their flights would, in the case of the Kinzhal, at its lower friction altitudes gain more range by reducing output and/or faster speeds (especially from a M2+ launch) hence the different claims.

            I and no-one on the other sites I visit have seen the Ukrainian’s ‘ballistic’ flight path claim. Yes, it only has the one fuel tank but it is believed that it can vary its fuel burn rate, for example during its high altitude cruise. All sources say that, unless it is beyond its fuel’s range i.e. is flying unpowered, then maintains its speed by being powered all the way to impact. The Mig-31K is deployed at bases in both the Southern and Central Military Districts so range should not be an issue.

  3. There’s also a need to able to take out the aircraft launching these things! Hope Ukraine can hit some juicy targets with their Storm Shadows, including ships parked in port and with whatever else they have to hand, some subs.

    • Sounds very promising.

      Updated 12:52 AM EDT, Wed May 17, 2023

      UK, Netherlands are working to procure F-16 fighters for Ukraine, Downing Street says

      “Ukraine, which has been saying the fighter jets are essential to defend against Russian missile and drone attacks, welcomed the announcement from the British and Dutch leaders.
      “We need F-16s, and I am grateful to our allies for their decision to work in this direction, including training our pilots,” said Andriy Yermak, head of the office of President Volodymyr Zelensky.
      Yermak said Belgium, another NATO ally, in particular, had “confirmed its readiness to train” Ukrainian pilots.

      Britain does not have F-16s in its air force, but the Netherlands and Belgium do. The US Air Force has almost 800 F-16s in its fleet.”
      
      LINK

        • I’m guessing donations from NATO allies and the USA as they have the means to replace them. Turkey also operates them I think.

          Which countries can produce F-16?

          “The F-16 was built under an unusual agreement creating a consortium between the United States and four NATO countries: Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Norway. These countries jointly produced with the United States an initial 348 F-16s for their air forces.”

          LINK

          • That makes sense, I also forgot about the huge number the US has in storage in Arizona. Makes complete sense to replace like with like.

          • And a very good opportunity to upgrade them with the latest Block 70/72 if they chose to do that. It still offers plenty of bang for your buck!

            LINK

          • “Lockheed Martin has more than 36 years of weapon integration experience with the F-16 – enabling it to be one of the most versatile multirole fighters ever.

            No one else can match this weapons integration experience. In concert with the U.S. Air Force and multiple F-16 Foreign Military Sales customers, Lockheed Martin has certified more than 3,300 carriage and release configurations for greater than 180 weapon and store types.” 

            https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/photo/f16/F-21HR-Multirole-1920.jpg.pc-adaptive.990.medium.jpg

          • The US have 3000+ F16s in reserve or air national guard’s units. Plenty to donate to Ukraine. All of the F16s would of course be far superior to 97% of the obviously turd Russian air force.

        • The UN says Crimea is Ukrainian, Russia can say what it likes.
          But I’m sure you knew I meant Russia proper, the landmass east of Ukraine.

          • Well everyone objective understood of course. Ukraine could perfectly well claim Russia as its own as it was settled by the Rus before virtually any of Russia saw them. Of course Crimea, as indeed the land to the East of it and the Black Sea, now occupied by Russia and called part of Russia, were in fact occupied by other peoples mainly the Tartars ( still being persecuted there, at least those that were not sent to Siberia by Stalin) and the Circassians who were sadly ethnically cleansed, wiped out or forced to emigrate all within the last few hundred years. And to think we get shit over Ireland.

          • Following the emancipation of the Saxon nobles by the Normans following the invasion of 1066. A lot of these Saxon families and warriors went to work for the Byzantines. As a reward for their service, they were given land on an “island” in the Black Sea, this was in fact Crimea. Does that mean the UK has a shout over who owns Crimea?

          • Crimea is Ukranian territory Johnski. Had you forgotten. The UN convention has already made that declaration. Facts are your fascist nazi armed forces are illegally occupying Ukrainian territory.
            Now be a good boy and pack up, ship out, apologise for your fascist empire building tendencies and return to your mud hovvle house in “mother Russia”

        • These Kinzhal missiles, are these the same missiles that you were boasting about earlier that Nato forces had no counter measure against?? Just wondering.

          • He read the stat sheets which was about as accurate as Intel’s over the years. The wow factor in either case tends to fade in close proximity or hands on experience. Of course truth is Putin wasn’t expecting to have to use them and reveal the truth. Can’t wait for the first use of the Zircon which has been similarly questioned based on the Kremlins actual own film of testing which shows a missile equally similar in form to a Soviet predecessor and no sign of true hypersonic aerodynamics. After all hypersonic speed has been around since the 60s.

          • Yes. He drank deeply of that Russian kool aid, forgetting that the laws of physics are immutable, there again, facts have never been his strong point.

          • Yes they are. Up to the moment of writing this there is no actual evidence, like a wreckage photo etc. This remains a claim, just as the Russian counter claim remains only a claim.

          • “…only a claim. ” Strange that you’d suddenly become so po faced about ‘claims ‘ when hitherto you’ve seized upon any unsubstantiated Kremlin deflection, propaganda, lies, straw man arguments, non sequiturs, distortions and fiction and gleefully disseminated them here. Nothing you post ever stands up to scrutiny.

            Do you still think that the execution of civilians by Russian soldiers in Bucha is ‘just a claim ‘?

          • I think it’s time for me to go back and cut and paste his previous Nazi nonsense…but ass usual he will ignore the posts and not have the balls to defend his claims! A little bit like your average Russian soldier….

          • Desperation and nonsense! Very much like the many claims and wreckage photos you have used in the past to justify your random propaganda….would you like me to cut and paste your previous claims? I see you have conveniently ignored my replies and cut and paste posts in the previous thread! Same old same old….

          • Don’t worry Airborne Johnski is going to be out of contact for a few weeks as he is going on a cruise on the RFS Moskva which never caught on fire and never sank.

          • Come on now John, stop lying. You know there have been photographic evidence of the wreckage from over a week ago.

          • Yes but look at that photo again. The item claimed to be a Kinzhal looked nothing like one. The Kinzhal has a long pointed aerodynamic nose, the one presented in Kiev has a short, blunt one, remarkably similar to a Russian bunker buster bomb. It was another Ghost of Kiev type PR claim.

          • Because that’s not the nose of the missile but actually part of the warhead assembly. I’m no longer able to post pics here for some reason but for you or anybody else that has twitter, please take a look at the thorough explanation of the wreckage and what part of the kinzhal it actually is.

            It’s in Russian too so I’m sure you will be able to read it. 😜

            https://twitter.com/AndreiBtvt/status/1656414635711508480?s=20

  4. They made the same brag about the Pantsir S1 air defence system, yet many of them got knocked out by drones in both Syria and Ukraine.

    Tactics and training matter just as much as technical edge, in reality, nothing is 100% undefeatable.

    • Russian air defences haven’t actually proved to be that bad. Don’t forget that most of the ones Ukraine is using are ex soviet designs and they are proving pretty effective. The war has however proven it’s near on impossible to provide full air defence of a front line, and so there will always be gaps to exploit by both sides.

      • I guess any “offensive” will be limited. Unless the Ukrainians can create a few gaps in Russia’s “umbrella” they are not going to have any aircover at all. I get the feeling this is going to be a long, drawn out slugfest in trenches like Iran/Iraq was. Even the figures for western kit supplied is very limited, and the types diverse. And be honest, a lot of it is old. And there is the question of continuing US support, Trump could score some points in a campaign about their involvement. And lets be honest, Europe is tired of it anyway.

        • The question is what is there left to give. UK / Europe has hollowed out their reserve kit over the years and pretty much anything spare has been donated. The US has massive stockpiles but it sees a threat from China and is unlikely to empty them for Ukraine. Russia is equally not able to resupply but it at least is trying to build new stuff, there doesn’t appear to be any indication that the West is willing to build new kit to donate.

          • I think the indications are that the West is building kit a good bit faster than Russia though ammunition is certainly a problem. Russias ability to build new tanks is it seems sluggish to say the least having been cut off from so many supplied parts, its cruise missiles are pretty much being used coming off the production line now. Where it has the advantage is in the immense storage it has maintained not newly produced stuff. It claimed a while back it had produced some 2000 Armatas by 2022 (yes really) when estimates and indeed the logic that none have been seen in the conflict zone (though Russia has claimed some are in use) suggests no more than 40 odd have been produced and that no serial production has so far taken place. If there were a good number I’m sure a few spares may have made it onto Red Square recently or were they disguised as a T-44.

          • Difficult to comment on your claims as Russian production figures are classified and estimates are just that. It looks as if they decided that the T-90 was good enough for now and easier to make, hence no more Amarta.

          • Ha ha ha 😂😆💩 wow you are so blatant in your nonsense it’s like chemical Ali in Iraq! That’s not what has been said by the Russian Nazis previously. The Amarta was a pipe dream, plastic show tank for red square, operated by Jimmy Saville nonce crews, just about able to drive in a straight line down red square! The T90, good enough target for the Ukrainians, which was still crewed by Jim fixed it for them crews! Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

          • T90. Eg the tank with the automatic turret ejection system? Good enough???🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣 That made me laugh. Thanks Johnski I needed to be cheered up.

          • Steve wrote:
            “”The question is what is there left to give. UK / Europe has hollowed out their reserve kit over the years and pretty much anything spare has been donated.””
             
            That’s a common train of thought that has been doing the rounds for a while now. What is never mentioned is that NATO countries as a whole not only started increasing arms spending prior to the Russian invasion of the Ukraine last Feb, but since then have started upgrading all their “neglected” weapons systems which since the 1990s have been allowed to atrophy.

            The vast majority of weapon systems palmed off onto the Ukraine, have actually been basically out of date stuff, that nations can afford to lose
            T72,T55,Leo 1, Leo2 4,AMX10,BMP1,BMP2,VAB,M117, etc)
            In return, the West has splashed the cash, in which to purchase cutting edge weapon systems which whilst may number less than ones they are handing over to the Ukraine, are years ahead of them in technology , survivability and lethality.
            Take for example the Uk , if Moscow hadn’t crossed the Rubicon, would the MOD have purchased:
            Naval Strike Missile
            Archer
            Upgraded the Chally 2 (yes numbers are low) but with the installation of the smooth bore gun trophy and its already impressive armour we are talking a tough act to beat)
            APKWS-II
            Last week ordered 5 new Giraffe radars
            Boxer
            And today we hear the Mark 41 Vertical Launch Silo.

            Yes we have the defence review later on this year, which will of course be followed by another defence review in 2025 by whoever wins the election and no matter how any party sells it, Defence reviews is just the smoke screen for saying defence cuts. But that is politics and but as of this moment the Uk (one of many nations) is spending more than it did a few years back in upgrading, replacing and purchasing new equipment 

      • Well they are being used against junk systems operated by untrained people.

        Whereas the Ukranians are very well trained and motivated.

      • The difference being training and skill set (and an increased amount of western platforms) in regard to the Ukrainians, however no matter the kit, if your people are shit, the whole system will be shit.

  5. So do we know if there is any confirmation (or otherwise) regards the Russians ascertion one knocked out a Patriot Air Defence Unit?

  6. Slighty off topic but keeping in the frame of air attack and air defences, last night saw a Avro Lancaster fly around the UK (London and former Lincs airbases) in honour of the Dam busters mission which was 80 years ago last night and somebody came up with this short video tweet:

  7. Its debatable that they shot down a Kinzhal. Kiltshkcho proudly stood next to the wreckage they claimed was the Kinzhal after this shootdown and it was clearly part of a Russian BETAB-500 Concrete Piercing Bomb, looked nothing like a Kinzhal which is based on the Iskander Missile.
    CAT-UXO – Betab 500 shp aircraft bomb

    • That was a claimed shoot down a few days ago, nothing to do with this one. No-one is saying this time that they have a photo of Kinzhal wreckage so you are probably right, it is a claim, nothing more.

      • Like your UK status….oh and many more previous claims in your pro Russian froth! Should I cut and paste them for all to read and guffaw?

  8. Anything that can be devised by a human can be defeated by another superior human. Nothing is undefeatable.

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