Tank crews from Ukraine have been “quick to master” the controls of the mighty Challenger 2 tank, say the Ministry of Defence.
These tanks have been provided to Ukraine by the United Kingdom as part of their efforts to assist the country in defending their homeland and regaining control of the territory that has been lost.
It is a testament to the dedication and proficiency of the Ukrainian tank crews that they have been able to quickly become familiar with the intricate workings of these powerful vehicles.
Challenger 2 tanks are widely considered to be among the most advanced and capable battle tanks in the world, and their deployment to Ukraine represents a significant enhancement to the country’s military capabilities.
Tank crews from the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been quick to master the controls of the mighty Challenger 2 this week.
The UK is providing Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine to help them defend their homeland and retake territory.@DefenceU
🇺🇦 #StandWithUkraine 🇺🇦 pic.twitter.com/iHiOmqR14U
— Ministry of Defence 🇬🇧 (@DefenceHQ) February 4, 2023
As the Armed Forces of Ukraine continue to face significant challenges in their ongoing efforts to secure their nation, the addition of these powerful tanks to their arsenal will undoubtedly play a vital role in helping them achieve their goals.
The UK’s provision of these tanks is a clear demonstration of their commitment to supporting Ukraine in their quest for peace and stability.
What’s going to Ukraine with the tanks?
The most recent UK contribution to Ukraine is as follows:
“United Kingdom: The United Kingdom’s accelerated package consists of a squadron of Challenger 2 tanks with armoured recovery and repair vehicles; AS90 self-propelled 155mm guns, while preserving their commitment in Estonia; hundreds more armoured and protected vehicles; a manoeuvre support package, including minefield breaching and bridging capabilities; dozens more un-crewed aerial systems to support Ukrainian artillery; another 100,000 artillery rounds; hundreds more sophisticated missiles including GMLRS rockets, Starstreak air defence missiles, and medium range air defence missiles; 600 Brimstone anti-tank munitions; an equipment support package of spares to refurbish up to a hundred Ukrainian tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.
The package is further augmented by continuing basic training and junior leadership training for the AFU in the UK with 9 International partners. With the aim of training around a further 20 000 AFU personnel in 2023. The UK is also coordinating the International Fund for Ukraine which has raised almost £600M with partners. The first package of support from the fund will be announced shortly.”
You can see the entire list by clicking here.
I think our army top brass is quite shocked that anyone can acquire a tank capability without 20 years of failed four letter acronyms and billions pissed up the wall.
I should point out that tanks are nothing new to Ukraine. They started with more tanks than UK currently has. They likely have more tank crews today than UK has. Still, a new tank has a new learning curve. Experience is something that takes years. Sometimes it’s a negative (when they can’t adapt). But experience + brains is a winning combination. So far Ukraine has demonstrated far more brains than the opposition. Numbers though are off for a tank that takes unique ammunition. It’s like a single sniper armed with a 30-06. The target won’t care what what hit them,… Read more »
True, the British army managed to take up 6 different tanks from four different manufacturers in two countries in just over a year in the western desert and fight its greatest ever battle. War has a way of cutting through the BS. Obviously things were simpler back then but the modern British army has a way of making something fairly mundane like the purchase of a replacement armoured vehicle fleet look like building a mega infrastructure project or putting a man on the moon. Like coming up with 2500 individual requirements for an off the shelf solution. In the real… Read more »
What you say has a sad truth about it but such is the world we live in modern times. War brings out the expediency in mankind like no other event.
Good post. Leopard and Abrams also have unique ammunition as the UA does not have 120mm smoothbore guns in its T series tanks.
True, but the Leopard and Abrams do share common ammunition, whereas the CH2 is unique. Also every Leopard/Abrams user will have stocks of ammunition to draw from, whereas all CH2 ammunition will have to come from the UK (barring new build ofc).
All specialist logistic (ammunition) and engineering items (spares) need to come in from outside Ukraine, so not sure there is much difference.
The CR2s could be supported from the British BG in Estonia or from the UK or both. Even better would be to move a British support unit to Poland near the UA border.
Similar issues to be faced in supporting the donated Leo 1s, Leo2s, and M1 Abrams – and of course all the other equipment donated by the west including HIMARS, MLRS etc etc..they must have solved ammunition supply for those items long ago.
One advantage of taking tank crews from other models and transferring them onto ch2 is they will already have a grasp of manuevre warfare and how to use tanks on the battlefield. Hopefully that lessens how much time is needed for these crews to reach competency.
Not forgetting dogged determination
Give us a break what about the tank crews of WW2 most of those were new to driving any tank. I learnt to drive a Ferret armoured car in an afternoon.
So did I
Thanks for support. I can remember I definitely drove a Ferret and would have gone on to drive a Saladin. I can’t understand why we stopped building such excellent AFV’s. I think Alvis being sold was the end of AC’s in the UK. Why we cant be more like the French in this regard.Still a place IMHO for a radically updated Saladin with a 105mm using Boxer parts as much as possible and 6 wheels. Are we not needing this to support Airborne forces?
👍🤣🤣
There is a grain of truth about what you say.
Over managing processes is a disease which is an economic/productivity dead weight.
Sometimes ‘get on with it’ has its own virtues.
Hopefully their example will help us re-learn forgotten lessons about need driving expediency..
Indeed, the US Navy disaster scrapping it’s whole Oliver Hazard Perry ASW fleet with no replacement is a case in point. The disaster of the Littoral Combat ships is now in the process of being repeated by the FFG. Initially selecting a proven design from France and Italy, they have now lengthened it, widened it, and it will now be heavier in undue haste with what appears little attempt to evaluate the seagoing capabilities of the new design. On top of that the navy wants more and more weapon systems added. Initially it was meant to cost around 800 million… Read more »
Sad, but true in the light of US criticism of the UK’s reduced military capability, broken ship propellers, and noisy Ajax, etc. Are there not fears of the tank’s armour secrets being lost, or has China caught up with Dorchester now? I think we should give the Ukrainians a lot more Challenger II and focus on getting a new tank for ourselves (Leopard with UK spec armour)… the Vickers Mk7 beat Challenger in trials and it had a Leopard chassis. The C3 upgrade seems like the tank we should have had ten years ago, not the one for ten years… Read more »
I think a big problem in military procurement was the need for getting the perfect product and as we all know perfect is the enemy of good enough. The RN seems to have learnt this lesson with a lot of its newer procurements not sure the army got the message in the same timeframe.
Eisenhower’s speech about the danger of the Military Industrial Complex covers basically the same issue. A fascinating discussion.
I think much of the issue is caused by the fact that the average sandhurst graduate is simply incapable of managing or even participating in such programs yet the army insist on their participation especially on a ridiculous 2 year rotational. Seriously if I want opinions on vehicles and requirements I would be asking NCO’s and if I want a project managed I’m looking at professional civil servants.
Jim, I just think you don’t like officers. How do you account for the very many procurement projects that go well? You should also blame interfering politicians, inexperienced defence companies, cost cutting Treasury and some laggard civil servants.
I use to be one 😀 Primarily many of the skills and attributes that make someone a good officer make then terrible at project management. I can’t account for any army procurement projects going well as I don’t know of any I would describe as going well. Almost every one is a complete cluster ****. What ones do you think went well? The other services have to deal with the same civil service and have to procure unique domestic solutions like SSN’s and aircraft carriers or even multi national aircraft programs which are some of the most complicated endeavours the… Read more »
Thanks Jim, for the reply. I would have thought that officer-like skills of strategising, planning, managing resources, setting deadlines and ensuring adherence to them, keeping on top of many moving parts, liasion and communication skills etc would have made officers very good at project management. I like to think that just about all the UOR projects during the time the army was in Iraq and Afghanistan went well – nothing to do with me being the PM for the Operational Vehicles Office in ABW of course! The Casualty Locator Beacon project went well – delivered on time, to budget and… Read more »
I agree, but having been in DE&S for a time. I would concur that there were some chinless, red trouser wearing numpties, who were either crap in a regiment and sent there to be out of the way. Or just doing the job to get the staff tour tick. I’m sure they were good at something? Running projects and talking contracts they were not. However, there were quite a lot who were the complete opposite. Bringing experience from 1st line to the project, but also being savy as a project manager. Where they believed it was their duty to make… Read more »
Thanks Davey…and there’s me thinking that red trousers went out 20 or more years ago! What I would say is that most decisions were made by committee (or rather at a committee meeting) rather than by a single staff officer. Some say that MoD should have professional procurement officers – I am sure the civil servants at DE&S would say that they were professional procurement officers. What is frustrating is that MoD procurement processes have not greatly improved since the 1970s despite reviews by respected people such as Peter Levene and Bernard Gray. Also frustrating that CGS and the Army… Read more »
Can’t comment on that Jim, I don’t know what skills they have. But I’ve always found the best skills are when you get a group together that have a mix of skills around knowing what they need something for ( a couple of decades of experience of actually doing something, a good procurement expert, project manager and finance person, contracts. Manager a person with a good governance head, finally technical skills for all the IT and equipment….that way the companies you’re procuring are forced to play strait….you also go in knowing exactly what. You want to procure…no changing around half… Read more »
The key is a small team that really knows what it is doing and they make decisions that stick. N-a-B described on NL why T26 design became so tortured with too much CAD taking the place of decisions and common sense. A big part of the issue, as I and many others have pointed out, is the two year rotation of desk officers ‘owning’ these army projects at a not senior enough rank. The desk officers have no idea how to do something this complex and slow moving. The two year timeframe was fine when project took two years from… Read more »
I agree, the “military” did recognize this. As DE&S tours were extended from 18 months to 3 years, However, a lot depended on the Officer. If they showed that they had good networking skills, could deliver and started making a name for themselves. They would become “wanted” people, especially if they were a junior officer. So could be taken off the desk early. There was talk, of Officers with the right aptitude being put on projects for longer, to make the project run smoother. But I left before any decision was reached.
That’s really interesting, you need to a really senior subject matter expert on a procurement team…we always look for a very senior person. As for rotating out before the procurement is done thats just bonkers inefficiency. It looks like they are mixing up their learn ( having a fixed term placement for a junior body) with their management of the procurement ( senior who stays to the end).
kind regards
jonathan
It was very confused: believe me.
Problem is nobody wants to stall their career path. The simple solution is promotion on results in post.
But that isn’t the modern zig zag method of climbing the greasy pole…..
Interestingly they asked a general of marines to look at nhs management and he found some of the same issues. 1) managers moving quickly from post to post to gain promotion before projects had finished. 2) short term focus no long term views, changing direction every couple of months due to political drivers etc. 3) massive increase in central government bureaucracy with the national NHSE and DOH workforce increasing from 7 thousand to 14 thousand…now these are not you jobing health care managers or even system strategist ( county level) these are your based in London making national policy,wonks. I… Read more »
Oh the joys of micro management….
Very often both safety and productivity suffer as a result of rigidly following pointless procedures.
Yes indeed, I’m especially fond of reporting stuff that nobody will ever bother with just because the DOH decided it should be reported.
Yeah but the difference is they are professional managers. No one expects medical doctors or nurses to have much input in to building a new hospital or buying a new MRI scanner.
Just because your using it does not mean you capable or qualified to determine how it’s bought or built.
It can take 10 years or more to procure complex military equipment. Would you really want an officer to be at DE&S for 10 years continuous?
Some things are worth having people stick around for. But I see your point. I’ve stayed with projects for 8 years even when I was moved around to do other things, I was networked into the project to keep my knowledge in play..there are ways and means if you think laterally.
Jonathan, sounds like you are talking about PM’ing in civvy street? You could never keep an officer engaged on a project for 8 years.
Recalling 8 consecutive years of my career – 2 years on R&D at Chertsey, Surrey then 18 months commanding a workshop in Hameln, Germany, then 1 year as a training officer in Arborfield, nr Reading then 2 years as 2IC of a REME Bn in Bordon Hampshire, then another 2 years technical staff job in Andover. No way could I have spent significant time over that period ‘moonlighting’ on a totally different PM job in procurement.
I graham, to be honest I’m one of the team experts and sometimes leader and coach, so I sort of give my wisdom and leave the project management to someone else, which is why I can wiz off doing different stuff but stay with a project for so long and be the memory of the team. I had assumed that the MOD would use officers like that…with the civil service providing the project management expertise and office team ( which is needed ) but that’s not either leading the team or being a team expert which you would think would… Read more »
Very interesting to see how the NHS does things. In my career as an army officer (34 years) in REME, I had many, many appointments across a broad range of areas. Up to and including Captain, most of your soldiering is at Regimental Duty (ie serving a Field Force (deployable) unit and they aren’t all by any means being in command of soldiers – there are many admin and staff jobs in a unit (or brigade HQ) that you could be doing. Often you manage projects within a job, rather than being a full-time project manager – I first managed… Read more »
I agree, and everything you say is pretty much the opposite of how you run an infantry platoon and there in lies the problem. 1 year at sandhurst and probably not even with a university degree. That’s no basis for someone running complex acquisition programs or even being involved beyond setting basic requirements which in my experience are normally better determined by NCO’s that will have a lot more experience by virtue of age and not rotating so much.
I agree, modern defence projects are long complicated affairs, continuity is needed, not a revolving doors policy of people in management positions.
The other thing that differentiates the Army from the Navy and Airforce is that both services have gone out of their way to achieve continuous build programs with a domestic manufacturer or two. That means the contractor themselves will iron out many of the problems over time and achieve exports which will help with the acquisition costs and further ironing out problems. Instead of cutting numbers like the other services the army went out if it’s way to retain soldier numbers and allowed all UK manufacturing to cease. This could have worked fine if the army was then willing to… Read more »
Not a bad support package for a “second tier” army. Nice Uncle Sam finally managed to round up some tanks as well to send.
Some say the US tanks will arrive in Ukraine in September and others say in a years time. Worrying.
The US has too make new export versions of the M1 for Ukraine since American M1s have depleted uranium in the armor which cannot be exported. Would be nice if the Arab countries did something to help Ukraine and gave some of their M1s to them. But Saudi and the rest have done virtually nothing. Ugh
I imagine this war quite suits Saudi Arabia and OPEC
You are talking about Ukraine getting Abrams!
…and as regards older tanks I have not heard Jordan offering their CR1s, especially sad as they are in the process of disposing of them in favour of new tanks.
Similar with the UK which is not only replacing the CH2 with the CH3 but also significantly reducing the numbers of MTB’s they have on the books down the 76 at last count so a significant number of CH2’s are being drawn down and could be sent to Ukraine. Politics aside.
We are always significantly reducing tank fleet size. 900 Chieftains to 420 CR1 to 386 CR2 to 227 CR2 to 148 CR3.
Perhaps we will get 40 or 50 ‘CR4s’ in about 2030 or so!
Yes, there are more CR2s that could go to Ukraine – or they could be fed into the CR3 line if the politicos find more cash and can be convinced that BA needs more than 148 tanks.
Seems like a very golden opportunity for the UK to get some best of the best Jordanian CR1s that could be engineered back up to CR3 standard and boost the tank pool! some “old tanks” anyone?
Quentin, are you joking? I was considering CR1s being given a quick check over and fix, and pressed into service with UA straightaway. The CR3 programme has been designed to convert CR2s. The CR1 is very different and only has 35% commonality with CR2. A new programme would have to be designed from scratch and that would take time – it may not even be possible to convert a CR1 to a CR3. More parts, up to and including new turrets and cannon would hav eto be ordered up which would take many, many months to make and deliver. The… Read more »
Hi Graham, pardon my naivety in these matters, but no I’m not joking. Seems like a decent size enough pool to get at least another 100+ tanks in a shortish time. Obviously a lot of re-work involved going by what you’re saying but didn’t RM even propose a possible turret upgrade for these too? Doesn’t Russia hold onto tank stocks going way back? And the US reworking its Abrams? They’re thinking outside the “turret box”, pardon the pun. I don’t see why you couldn’t have a CR 1 to CR3 and a CR 2 to CR 3 program running in… Read more »
I wasn’t (and am still not) sure if you were proposing re-lifing CR1s for the Ukraine Army or the British Army. If for Ukraine – then they need western tanks now, or at worse case within the next 2 months. If Jordan gifted their (up to 400) CR1s, then UK could pay for a quick check over and fix by KADDB in Jordan, and arrange shipping of tanks and whatever spares are left. They would be far better than the Leo1s and almost as good as the Leo2s that others are gifting. If for the UK – we certainly need… Read more »
We didn’t have the same security qualms when we supplied CR1 with its very secret Chobham armour to Jordan some 20 years ago.
Surely US has some older M1s in strorage without the DU mesh?
We forget that the rest of the world is not so on the same page as the western liberal democracies…they follow our lead or play nice for their own advantage and because of the strength of western hegemony …geopolitics is not very moral…the strongest player that turns up wins and at the moment the rest of the world is looking at the west to see if it’s still the strongest player on the pitch as a lot of western powers have started to indicate they may be sitting things out….the Afghanistan withdrawal was a big red flag as was trumps… Read more »
Just remind me, how much territory did Ukraine lose when Trump was president?
That literally has nothing to do with what I was talking about…I was discussing the wider world and you know global geopolitics and the influence of the west…not what sparked the invasion of Ukraine…which in reality started in 2014. If you think that Donald trump did not impact in the wider world view of the US as stable ally I’m happy to debate with clear examples.
Ooh look a squirrel…
Like it Jonathan. Succinct. The world’s quick response, including the UKs, to the earthquakes in Turkey is showing there’s still very much humanity, decency, compassion and vulnerability around especially in overwhelming happenings like this. If we are going to leading force in the world then we need to keep our head, heart and actions in a moral, strong and humane place. As you say, lots of competing forces going on all the time and we want to stay on or near the top don’t we?!
A train load of M1 was spotted 16 hours ago near Aachen, and you ain’t going to load them puppies unless you have good reason to do so.
A lot of smoke and mirrors going on in the background and rightly so as MBT’s are being moved into Poland in numbers.
Thanks.
Why weren’t they tarped over? No-one does OPSEC these days!
Tanks for Poland or tanks for Ukraine?
Good question, Poland has supplied Ukraine with a number of T72 upgraded tanks and last I heard the US was to agree they would supply them with Abrams as replacements so they could be coupled with that.
Babcock left CR2 hull with an armour stripped turret outside at Bovington for about a year not covered . Think it was destined to be used for recovery training by REME somewhere !
My point was about tanks deploying to war and it being a good idea to maintain some secrecy.
Quite a shock to hear that tanks that have not been declared Obsolete are wending their way to be used as a recovery hulk – we used to use vehicles that were about 2 generations old for that.
Yes this 1st class fighting force across the pond needs to build them from parts apparently. That will frighten future dictators no end. The sooner Europe generally gets real about defence the better.
Unlike us and the Europeans who view it as a manageable issue, the US regards its classified elements in the Abrams as being sacrosanct. As a consequence it seems that they are striping the DU armour out, which takes time. There is also a view that they would rather the Germans took the PR hit in the event of destroyed Leopards rather then the Abrams.
😂
I think I’ve found him. Waiting for UKDJ to approve the links taken directly from google
RUSSIA DEFENCE FORUM
16 Jan 2023 — person JohninMK. Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 pm. by JohninMK. Soviet carton 1958, on the money. Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 …
LINK TO GOOGLE PAGE Quoted Twice
Great work Nigel. Seems our Putin bot has been discovered and exposed. Hilarious. 👊💪👍
The Russians can’t even destroy a T72 at range.
First problem is hitting the target and not just the neighbourhood; and
The second problem is that the rounds they use are not very effective.
‘There is also a view that they would rather the Germans took the PR hit in the event of destroyed Leopards rather then the Abrams.’
Yes, a Mr. V. Putin instructed his people to peddle this line. Your medal is in the post.
Presumably a medal made out of the remains of a T72 that the Ukrainians ‘recycled’ 😏
When Russia has made an enemy of The Twät’s Echo (a.k.a. The Guardian) you realise how serious this special military operation has gone wrong for the Kremlin. The woke rag had a long piece last Friday on how Russia has been the largest single donor of tanks to Kviv; workshops are stripping, repairing and returning captured T series tanks to the front – several hundred have been acquired so far.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/03/the-ukraine-repair-shop-where-russian-tanks-go-to-change-sides
Oh the extremes of the far-left (eg Piers Corbyn) and far-right (eg David Kurten) still say it’s all nasty NATO’s fault and that Putin is peace-loving. But these fruitcakes are also anti-vax, believe in chemtrails, etc, etc 🤦🏻♂️
I believe even before the commitment of western MBTs, Ukraine now has more tanks than when the war started. Hopefully with the quantity of Soviet-era tanks and quality of Western tanks they can liberate their country.
its funny how both the far right and far left end up functionally looking and sounding the same…. There was after all no functional difference between hitlers third reich and Stalin’s Soviet Union. Infact the birth of fascism can be tracked back to communism. That excludes the ultra libertarians who are just a bit odd and are not really functionally far right wing in the same way as the right wing movement itself (they are more sod off and leave me alone).
Libertarianism is a rather specific form of liberalism and liberalism doesn’t sit on a left-right axis, which is why even the more extreme libertarians don’t end up in the political horseshoe gap with the fascists and communists.
Fascism is the right-wing’s ultra-authoritarianism, communism is the left-wing’s authoritarianism.
Ultra-Libertarians are the right-wing’s equivalent to the left-wing’s anarchists.
Is short, extremism always bad.
https://politicalcompass.org/
“Ha ha ha ha ha ha
There are many ways to get what you want
I use the best, well I use the rest
Well I use the enemy
I use anarchy
‘Cause I, I want to be, anarchy…”
sorry showing my age there…loved that single.
To be honest for most of there existence anarchist and libertarian were essentially the same thing as the libertarian movement was part of the same anti authoritarian socialist ideology that essentially got sidelined by the soviets (socialism could not have picked a worst county to set rout in, as Russians make really bad communists).it’s only with more modern nuance and mainly American thinking that they separated ( Americans created a new version of libertarian thinking based in the right). But as you say in reality they are all the same…..not what you want. But it’s always been my opinion that… Read more »
I think the British fair-play and muddle-through pragmatism means that we are adverse to ideologies and their fanatics.
Neither fascism nor communism took hold here. Instead we have a Woolworths pick-and-mix attitude, so social healthcare “yes”, private home ownership “yes”.
In short, we’re quite a mellow, laidback, bunch.
That’s why we would be brilliant at it, none of that fanatical international socialist movement nonsense….just a bit of fair play and everyone’s alright attitude…defo none of that shooting the bourgeoisie none sense the Russians got up to.
I wouldn’t call that socialism though.
I’d just call it being a decent human being, with aspirations for betterment, but a sense of social responsibility too.
Indeed, personally I call myself a socialist, but what I mean by that is being a social democrat and essentially believing in what you just said. But in essence when your talking left and right in our country your really just talking main stream middle of the road not far from each other reasonableness…you do get the odd aberration like the Corbin Labour Party ( I’m a Labour supporter, but I would never have voted Labour with that team in charge).
You forgot to talk about the extremists from the center. You know those revolutionaires that want to destroy the economi system, the food production system, what can be said and what cannot be said. That have protected classes negating equality before the law…
You can’t have extremists from the centre by its very definition 🤦🏻♂️
As for the people you describe, I’m not aware of anyone who wants to destroy the food-production and economic system. The climate-change deniers will destroy these, but I doubt it’s their intention, just their stupidity.
Maybe you should look at extremist definition first…
Extremism is not only defined by the “center”.
When the center want to upheaval the whole economy system the center are extremist, when the center have the biggest debt in peace, the center are extremist, when your centrist universities have racial quotas the center is extremist, when centrist BBC cries for a terrorist the BBC is extremist. When the center makes British people not equal under the law the center is extremist.
Extremism is not only what the center conveniently picks as extremism.
You’ve been watching too much InfoWars and QAnon I think… Being pro-Brexit I’m no fan of the Remainer groupthink at the BBC, but it’s certainly not extremist. That’s both factually incorrect and downright silly. Nobody in the centre ground of politics wants to destroy the economic system. The only people who appear to want to do that are: • those on the far-left who advocate the overthrow of free-market capitalism in favour of communism • those on the far-right who advocate doing nothing about climate-change, which will utterly wreck the economy of every nation on the planet (as well as… Read more »
You too funny.
Nah, JohnInMK is the real comedian…
Or did I mean “clown”? 🤔
Court Jester!
Anyone who thinks we aren’t going to see tank losses is dreaming. At least one is bound to hit a mine, take a bad hit from artillery, tank round, anti tank weapon. The main thing will be to recover it back to safety where possible. Hopefully the uk sends more. I’ve heard the Ukrainians work is groups of 31 tanks. Obviously that breaks down further. I saw a Canadian leopard going on a C17. Most likely heading to Europe for training etc. I would prefer to see some tanks blown up making progress than humans being maned, killed, tortured. Actually… Read more »
Yes the Ukrainians organise their tanks in groups of 31, which is why the USA pledged 31 Abrams. Will be interesting to see if we up the number of Challengers donated, they are operated on their own, or operate in a combined unit with Leopards or Soviet-era tanks.
Can’t really strip that stuff out. They are making new export M1s for Ukraine now. Would be easier with Arab countries like Saudi and Egypt pulled their fingers out and sent some of theirs.
Just send the us army standard ones. There are lots of older models sitting around in the USA. They are acting like the armour is some alien technology.
Shhhh if you keep say that the CIA will be asking MI5 to kidnap you.
Imperial stormtroopers…..you bring new levels of hilarity every time…..
I think I’ve found him. Waiting for UKDJ to approve the links taken directly from google
RUSSIA DEFENCE FORUM
16 Jan 2023 — person JohninMK. Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 pm. by JohninMK. Soviet carton 1958, on the money. Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 …
LINK TO GOOGLE PAGE Quoted Twice
Taken from the website
https://www.russiadefence.net/t8891p825-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-37#416876
https://www.russiadefence.net/images
Probably also to do with the logistical headache large numbers of Abrams supplied with fuel will create.
Still surprised we don’t just buy up the challenger 1 s surplus from Jordan.?
I’ve been saying the same thing for weeks now a Chally 1 would still mess up 99% of nazi boy Putin’s tanks. Definitely better than a leopard 1.
I think the challenger 1s will probably be £1 million each then the upgrade and to get them running. The spares is also another big question mark. Will the uk fund all of that? Would be great if the tanks were in good condition and could get some newer sensors put on and problematic parts replaced within a reasonable budget.
Need to look into what Jordan is offering in the sale and how much they are
Found this on Bulgarianmiltary.com The German military concern Rheinmetall has made an offer to Amman to modernize the British Challenger 1 tank. BulgarianMilitary.com recalls that London has agreed to send 14 units of its Challenger 2 main battle tanks to Kyiv. German newspaper Handelsblatt says Rheinmetall is ready to buy a “double-digit amount” of Jordanian Challenger 1 tanks, bring them to Germany, refurbish and repair them, and send them to help Ukrainian ground forces. According to experts from the company, this process can proceed relatively quickly, so that by the end of 2023 the “double-digit amount” of British tanks will… Read more »
Is the issue more around spare parts?
We sold CR1s to Jordan for a lot less than £1m each.
I don’t know how much the original lot supplied were but the 2nd batch were described in the guardian as: what is described as an “unusual gift” of tanks with a book value of £385,000 each. Whether that was actually free I can’t tell. My thoughts are why did Jordan retire it’s challenger 1 and upgrade its M60A3 instead. Is there something wrong with the challenger 1. It seems a strange preference to choose the older less well armed tank for modest upgrade. Someone will need to inspect the vehicles and see what issues they have. Good to know the… Read more »
I think one of the possible reasons is that the M60 is an earlier generation tank with “solid” armour, rather than composite as per the Challenger 1. This makes it easier and cheaper to work on. Especially if you want to add an external part that needs welding on. From what I understand the Raytheon upgrade to the M60 is centered around a new fire control computer. It doesn’t for instance add an independent thermal sight for the commander. So package wise it brings it up to the same-ish level as their Challengers. It still has the 105mm L7 (licensed… Read more »
Jordan is not a wealthy country so the CR1 tanks were sold at a price Jordan was comfortable with.
Jordan has for 20 years operated a mixed fleet of CR1 (Al-Hussein), M60A3 (now upgraded with a new Raytheon FCS).
They are replacing the CR1s ( a mix of in-service and stored tanks) with Leclerc (gifted by UAE), but it seems they are keeping the M60A3s. Why? I agree that it makes no sense. Of course there is nothing wrong with CR1, unless they are finding it hard to get the unique ammo – CR1 is far superior to the M60.
Most Middle Eastern military procurement is more about influencing whatever western nation they need to at the time.
Hi Mr Bell, received your comment re “Great work Nigel. Seems our Putin bot has been discovered and exposed.” The posts have been removed already, but yes, confirmed! RUSSIA DEFENCE FORUM 16 Jan 2023 — person JohninMK. Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 pm. by JohninMK. Soviet carton 1958, on the money. Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 … “UK-funded expert research has exposed how the Kremlin is using a troll factory to spread lies on social media and in comment sections of popular websites. The cyber soldiers are ruthlessly targeting politicians and audiences across a number of countries including the UK, South Africa and… Read more »
I saw it pointed out that there were similar interventions from Yank Generals just before the previous two Defence Reviews.
Very convenient 😉.
Me !! Me !! Me !!
It’s been reported some big shot commander called Darth Vader reckons the U.K. Space Command doesn’t have enough TIE Fighters…
😀
I salute you sir
An interesting footnote, I’m sure I heard a Belgian arms dealer say the UK had made inquiries about his thirty-odd Leopard 1 A5s he has in store! If true, it all sounds a bit desperate in the face of handing over CH2 to Ukraine. Like the Germans, the UK will possibly increase the number of CH2s to around 30 or so in the near future and if so, it would reduce the surplus to around 40 vehicles, not including the CH3 fleet….or have I got my maths wrong?
Why wouldn’t the UK buy Leopards on behalf of Ukraine? What’s desperate about that?
Exactly. Showing some initiative in shopping 🛒 around for some good tank bargains for a friend in need.
Totally agree Leopards are what they need shame when common sense and lateral thinking is portrayed as desperation geez I’m cynical but slagging off this Country really is too endemic at times. Shame that the US didn’t think 6 mths ago that in the future they will need to supply tanks and plan how they were going to do it beyon Soviet types.
Yes, tanks are kind of needed right now by Ukraine, as they’ve been asking for ages, amongst other equipment. Hope they have enough in place to withstand the next supposed Russian offensive or, better, take the offensive themselves!! It’s their country, they don’t have to wait for Russia to act big!
The US might be best buying 1A5’s too. It would give mass without the logistical tail and long lag time that the M1’s need.
Well said, we do have some plunkers on this site who think brainless criticism of the MOD is clever.
Correct Quentin note my reply to Jon.
Sorry, I’d assumed the UK was interested as a backfill for CH2 and used by the British Army…..it’s a Sunday. I have no problem with us buying them for Ukraine but there is some confusion as to the price depending on what equipment needs to be updated.
We’d don’t need to buy tanks from backfill, we’re supplying tanks that are deemed surplus.
The MoD has previously bought lots of weapons, ammunition from arms-dealers and third nations to supply Ukraine. Leopard 1s are old, but still better than the Soviet tanks the Ukrainians have.
The British Army doesn’t want ancient Leo 1s as supplied by a Belgian arms dealer! They are for Ukraine. Don’t know why we are getting involved with this. Better if we intercede with Jordan for CR1s to go to Ukraine.
😆
that would be a useful us of all those tanks.
Well any old Leopard 1A5s would need some updating even for Ukraine as it’s 40 years old. The UK would never be buying leopard 1s for itself unless it was for target practice.
We did buy Leopard 1s once. A little known fact is that our Beach Recovery Vehicles that replaced the Cent BARVs are Leo 1-based.
Now that is really interesting. I will look it up, cheers.
I was the Equipment Support Manager for the 5 Cent BARVs – they were converted from gun tanks in 1961 by a REME static workshop. The Leo 1 replacement was long overdue but we only bought 4 of them.
Haha that must be some Saturday night you had.
The Belgians seem to be in a tiz as they’re sold the tanks to the guy for a few thousand euros each and are expecting a guy who bought them as a business investment to give them back at a cheap price. He stated the price to get them working and ready could be €500,000.
Lesson to learn don’t sell ur kit if u need it back.
Talking about Belgium. We sold them our old Saracens and Humber Pigs in the 60s, but had to buy them back for the NI troubles. Did they put the price up!
It’s to do with export rules for military equipment within the EU that is owned commercially. The UK being outside these rules doesn’t have to abide by them. Hence the possible purchase. The UK have done it recently with M109s that we’re also stored in Belgium. The idea of giving Ukraine Leopard 1s isn’t so outlandish. They will be used primarily as an infantry support vehicle. Yes they use a derivative of the 105mm L7. Which might not be able to go toe to toe with T72/80s. However, if it can get a shot in to the sides and rear,… Read more »
Its armour was never even designed to stop a 1960s AT round. it was only armoured against light weapons. It’s not a great defensive tank due to this issue. What advantages it has is a very very long range ( around twice that of Russian MBTs or any modern western MBT) and only being 47tons….this would be a good vehicle for mobile operations as it’s got more freedom from its logistic tail.
considering both Russia and Ukraine are down to using T62s..the leopard 1 could fit a role for Ukraine.
Agreed, the decision back when Leo 1 was being designed, is that the HEAT warhead from an ATGM couldn’t be stopped by armour. Well light enough armour, that still allowed the tank to be mobile. So it was decided to go with firepower and mobility over armour. The French did the same with AMX30. The L7 proved it could take out T62s when used by the Israeli army. It was also used against early T72s, when Israel replaced their Centurions with M60s, then Merkava 1s. It wasn’t until the Merkava 3 came along, that the L7 was replaced with a… Read more »
Indeed they are in an attritional conflict, numbers will matter a lot. I would imagine the Ukrainian army will take any western tank that works…especially as western tanks have always had better focus on keeping crews alive if they get knocked out. They and the Russians are happily using T62s and T72s which are death traps for crews.We should as much as practicable be emptying every warehouse the west can get hold of…be it Leopardi 1 challenger 1 etc, if we give Ukraine tanks that help keep crews alive in an attritional conflict that will make a big difference….
…think he purchased them originally for $15k each and now wants to sell them for $500k each.
Whatever happened to the good old fashioned not-for-profit honest arms dealers of the past ?
LOL
😂
Those social enterprise peddlers of death and destruction.
The gun on the Leopard 1 uses specialist 105mm ammunition which is currently unavailable. In February 2023, the German government approved the delivery of Leopard 1 tanks from industrial stock, as soon as they were repaired. But there is still the problem with supplying ammunition. Apparently Brazil has a huge stock of it, but so far President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva has refused to pass it on to Ukraine.
Correct re Brazil. As part of the BRICS group they don’t seem to want to risk their relationship with Russia.
Time to get worried when a Russian mole replies to one of my posts. I hope the Security Service have got you on their APNR system
See Nigel Collins 2 posts above Johninmk has been thoroughly exposed as a Kremlin mole, officially.
That’s news to me. Care to explain?
If they have its not impacting on my life. It is possible that the seven seventh have a file on me, but probably re my views on Covid vaccines.
Ah another thread where you probably had another avatar and spewing shite in the COVID vaccine! But as your Nazi Russia vaccine was a bluff, maybe you could have tried ours!
I expect that your knowledge of virology, epidemiology, immunology and pathology are as accurate and rooted in scientific fact as your endless misinformation on military and geopolitical matters. . Or in simple terms, full of shit.
As far as I can tell this news about the 105mm gun is a lot of rubbish. The leopard uses the L7 gun. Ammunition is available from lots of sources.
As far as I can figure out Brasil said it wouldn’t supply ammunition when Schultz visited recently. Brasil gets lots of fertilisers etc from Russia so is staying neutral.
South Korea uses the L7, USA uses it on striker gun platform, turkey, Greece on leopard 1 and there is others aswell.
Ah, thanks for putting me right MS – lots of media outlets are saying there’s no tank 105mm available so I wonder who started that one off?
There are plentiful supplies of 105mm tank ammo lying around, it was the standard calibre for NATO until upgrade too 120mm
And here they are – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZY5LvsNuR8
I’d be far more impressed if we were inquiring about the 30+ ex Belgian Gepards he has in stock, they are proving to be Bloody useful.
Why spend money on an obsolete tank with inadequate armour and yet another type of ammunition to try and supply.
Belgian Government are haggling over price.
Happened last year with howitzers. Hercule was wasting time, so we stepped in.
It’s to do with export rules for military equipment within the EU that is owned commercially. The UK being outside these rules doesn’t have to abide by them. Hence the possible purchase. The UK have done it recently with M109s that we’re also stored in Belgium. The idea of giving Ukraine Leopard 1s isn’t so outlandish. They will be used primarily as an infantry support vehicle. Yes they use a derivative of the 105mm L7. Which might not be able to go toe to toe with T72/80s. However, if it can get a shot in to the sides and rear,… Read more »
The A5s are in very good condition in that warehouse and are going to waste sitting there. Give them to Ukraine and let their tankers use them where they are best suited. The old Centurion/Chieftain 105 served very well and the former in the Israeli conflicts with huge success.
Chieftain had a 120mm.
Just testing Graham…..just testing.
Thanks!
Conqueror ISD 1955, also had a 120mm gun.
Any and I mean any round that can’t penetrate the rather useless T series armour will cause the tank to engage it’s Russian automatic turret ejection system to engage. I’m fairly certain a 105mm gun is capable of said triggering.
What is it with Belgium itself? Are they too poor to buy them from their own dealer?
My question is what is it with Belgium and warehouses full of old Cold War kit….did they go around purchasing it all after the Cold War on the off chance they could off load it all later.
What has Belgium supplied? Can they not buy them from their own dealer and give them to Ukraine? I remember the story about ammunition in GW1, maybe it was just that.
there is a list on Wiki, but it wont let me post it
Seems so. Very enterprising. Your mates in the Kremlin must be really peeved that those capitalist westerners had the foresight to do just that.
They are going to get very rich all because of Putin’s special military operation.
What are you talking about “my mates in the Kremlin”…
Anti-tank guided missiles€1 million worth of MILANs [May or June 2022].[30] A small number of RK-2S Baryers [November 2022] (purchased from the CMI Group in Belgium).[30] Heavy mortars 4 120mm MO-120 RTs [November 2022].[30] Vehicles “Large numbers of” Volvo Fassi N10 Trucks [November 2022].[30] 80 Iveco LMV Lynx vehicles [Planned] 150 Volvo trucks [Planned][31] Anti-tank weapons 200 M72 LAWs [March 2022].[30] Small arms 5000 FN FNC assault rifles [March 2022].[30] Limited numbers of FN F2000 and F2000 tactical assault rifles [May 2022].[30] Limited numbers of FN SCAR-L assault rifles [May 2022].[30] ”Heavy machine guns” [To be delivered].[32] Ammunition Small arms… Read more »
It would be better to shop around for some CR1s – Jordan has got loads of them and is about to replace them, so would be happy to see them go.
That does not sound desperate, it sounds a good idea to explore.Admittedly the leopard 1A5 is a very lightweight vehicle….and is very lightly armoured (it was not designed to survive a hit with AT weapons) so I would not be great for defensive operations or infantry support..but 47tons would be good for mobile operations across the open spaces of Eastern Europe…also it’s got about twice the range of modern MBTs including the leopard 2…it’s actually alsoa better option that a T72 or T62 for any offensive operations planned, which is what Ukraine has now. It’s a complete different design paradigm… Read more »
If there is any truth to Ukrainian reports of a buildup of 500,000 Orcs in theatre, in preparation for a spring offensive, NATO may be forced to upshift a gear in terms of armour and artillery resupply. Human wave attacks ala trench warfare circa WW I. Requirements for CR2, CR1, L2, L1, M1, AS90, Caesar, catapults, muskets, crossbows, long bows, spears, and the odd boulder…Time for a spring cleanout of the supply closet…🤔
If they somehow have that many badly trained, poorly equipped troops, Ukraine’s fields are going to be very fertile after.
Those numbers could be the total mobilised but some of them have been deployed. Or it could be including Belarus forces.
I guess time will tell
I think Denis Davydov took that apart last night on YouTube.
500,000 orcs sharing 1 rifle between two with four bullets. The Russian way of war. 😀
Apparently human wave attacks like WW1 is how Wagner are deploying their newly acquired convicts.they’re sent wave after wave to try and gain a few meters. I saw one report where Ukrainian troops described it like fighting zombies because they just keep coming at them.
Agreed, the delivery of weapons and munitions is taking too long.
Not certain how materially these tactics differ from Soviet tactics during WW II. The very abbreviated version of history was that the Nazis initially overwhelmed the Soviets, who eventually reorganized and then proceeded to pay them back w/ compounded interest. Never considered the Russians as exhibiting much finesse as opposed to being capable of bludgeoning their opponents into submission. A number of posters on this site apparently believe this conflict has virtually been won already, and discount the resiliency of the Russians; I am not as confident or optimistic. Could easily envision WW I style meat grinder trench warfare, hand-to-hand… Read more »
This war is very far from a Ukrainian victory. The Ukrainians are losing bits of territory, the hope is they are inflicting mass casualties in the process. Whether that’s true or not I don’t know. The best thing for Ukraine is probably to go down to crimea. The front lines are just too large. Ukraine has to defend all of it while Russia can pick where to attack. Obviously this applies to Russian lines aswell but ukraine doesn’t seem to be pushing so much just now. The big surprise has been the huge losses Russia is prepared to accept for… Read more »
There are significant numbers of late model Chieftain tanks that are in storage globally , these could be made readily available and given ERA blocks to improve armour , ammo supply may be an issue but may be enough for use to block any attack from Belarus direction, whilst at it I would give them all remaining AS90 and look at building a Mk2 version with a 52 calibre gun similar to Poland Krab I would give Ukraine Credit to ensure several hundred could be built to ensure the needs of both countries are met.
Certainly true that in the past entrenched tanks used defensively have proved useful (sometimes not true) and in a situation where the opposition does not have battlefield air supremacy could be useful and allow better more mobile units to be used elsewhere. It’s not like much of the artillery being used by the Russians is post Soviet era.
Agreed. Jordan has Chally 1’s in great numbers too. When you study the Polish “Twardy” T72 it is indicative of how older tanks can be upgraded to be effective. Given the numbers of “T” series of all kinds held in Russia? If they are utilized they would overwhelm any opposition. I guess it is the old argument of quality over quantity. I sometimes think the west has taken its eye off the ball when it comes to mass.
Yes there are a motley collection of Chieftain Tanks scattered around parts of the globe – hopefully efforts have/are being made to assess what condition they are in and their suitability for onward supply.Again Jordan could be key as they possess late model Chieftain (Shir 1) as well as CR1.
If we’re looking at finding Chieftains to send. Then priority number 1 is to replace the engine with something that is at least semi reliable. Ammo for it will be hard to find. As I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) it can’t use the Challenger 2 ammo. As the gun’s pressure rating is lower.
Davey have a look at Shir1 used by Jordan basically a late model chieftain with the same engine as Chally 1 &2, ammo is compatable with Chally 1 as far as I can tell.Jordan must have a shed load of ammo as itused over 400 chally 1
Some of Jordanian Cheftains are in the armored museum underwater…
Are we talking about Chieftains just because some Leo1s are being readied for Ukraine? We surely can’t be serious. Let us get Jordan to agree to release hundreds of CR1s instead.
I’m sure all the countries contributing these tanks realise the urgency in getting them there as soon as possible to Ukraine.
Ukrainian tank crews are picking up how to drive these vehicles very quickly.
I know I keep on abut this but I think the UK needs a new agency that is responsible for nurturing and developing key indigenous strategic assets and capabilities. The whole MBT saga was predictable. A new 21st CH4 with ambitious capabilities built on proven tech is what is needed for the UK, produced in an ongoing production line – however small. It is not safe, or economic in the wider sense, to rely on others and buy off the shelf for this sort of thing.
Amen! I don’t get why we don’t buy 1/2/3/4 tanks, airplanes, helicopter, and a regular drum beat of boats. Keeps the industry and skills open, you slowly replenish the stock and when you do a new version you start small and build up. There should always be a trickle of manufacture. We can re sell items in batch to other countries as needed as well so it gives you export opportunities. Yes I think we need a company to do this or we constantly buy small batches post main production run.
1-4 per year I mean. 🙂
…in the case of MBTs, I would say have a production facility that has an ongoing minimum production of say 2x new CH4(?) a month, and 2x CH2/CH3 refurbs. Then when needed scale up (like we need now!). This would keep the design team and supply chain intact. Ditto for warships, and key aircraft types.
The next Conservative govt would doubtless sell it off to the Americans !
Yep. Sadly true, or even more likely, will get taken over on the UK stock market if a company, like has happened to so much of the wider UK defence industry. Short-sighted politicians as always too afraid to stop this from happening or too keen to sell off the crown jewels for short-term gain. Other countries don’t allow this and are more on top of the longer-term strategic need.
Sorry but the matelots need the money to straighten out a propellor shaft or two. You know for that gin palace that has no aircraft to go on it…😂
UK needs a Sovereign Wealth Fund.
The governments of the day were told that industry like armoured vehicles production would be lost without an order etc but didn’t care. Only miss something when it’s lost.
…sadly all so predictable sigh!
The easiest way to do that would be to start building new Challenger hulls. It means we can give lots more C2 to Ukraine whilst having no problem with C3 numbers. Then swap the manufacturing over to the next gen vehicle when it comes through.
My main point is that we pull together a UK design team now. Rather than leave it BAe or the overseas boys & girls, we form a new, sovereign agency to look after it. The original Chally design was by the Royal Ordnance Factory (ROF) before it got taken out by Vickers/BAe. A MBT is too strategically important to be just left to the free market….as is now proven. We can then argue about the best production method.
CR1 was designed by my old MoD R&D unit then called MVEE. Built by ROF Leeds, ROF being taken over by Vickers in 1986.
I haven’t yet read the new MoD Land (Equipment) Industrial strategy but it should perhaps advocate, where possible, British involvement in design, development, manufacturing and testing of AFVs and key weapons. Don’t know about avoiding the free market for design and having that in Government hands – MoD has lost its expertise there many decades ago.
Thanks Graham for expanding on the origins of Challenger. the MVEE must have been good. Didn’t Vickers then also try and come up with a tank (MVII ?) that us Chally turret & gun, but with Leopard hull/running gear.
I am a suggesting an agency that nurtures and develops key strategic capabilities and assets. It holds the IP, but works also with private industry on a secondment/sub-contract basis. A bit like the Ministry of Aircraft Production back in WWII but much wider ranging and without a politician in charge.
MVEE (various other names) designed just about all our tanks up to and including CR1, invented Chobham armour, pioneered unmanned vehicles (from EOD Wheelbarrow and other much more advanced stuff). Much more besides..
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/from-scimitar-to-fres-to-ajax/from-scimitar-to-fres-to-ajax-the-sixties-and-seventies/
Vickers produced a number of PV tanks, selling the early ones to India as Vijayanta. Vickers Mk 1, 3, 5, 7 MBT etc
Good idea for the agency.
We could do worse than to do that. Do it quick if you ask me.
I know 😂 A captain from the German Army unit that is donating 14 of its Leopard 2s to Ukraine has said he isn’t worried about Russia finding out any “secrets” if they capture any of their tanks. Speaking to Forces News, Captain Martin Waltemathe, the official spokesman of 21st German Armoured Brigade, said there are no issues with Leopard 2 tanks potentially falling into Russian hands, as the information is already widely available on Google. He said: “We use the Leopard 2 tank since 1979. There are no real secrets in there. And if you use Google, you can… Read more »
The GLSDB will be supplied to Ukraine via funding from the Ukraine Security Assistance Program, this is the system where, rather than supply out of existing US military stocks, the USG places new orders to cover the requirement. It is not public if the orders have been placed but there must be a delivery lead time hence comments that it could be the Autumn before delivery is possible.
Whilst the development started back in 2015 I’m not sure if the US Army actually ordered any.
I have a gut feeling they will arrive sooner rather than later.
Created by Saab & Boeing it will be yet another game-changer in the war against Russia.
I’m sure there are one or two conscripts and criminals alike who will have further sleepless nights in illegally occupied territory, including Crimea.
Don’t you agree JohninMK?
RUSSIA DEFENCE FORUM
Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 – Page 18
https://www.russiadefence.net › … › CIS Military Issues
16 Jan 2023 — person JohninMK. Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 pm. by JohninMK. Soviet carton 1958, on the money. Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 …
I doubt, as with the earlier ‘game changer’ weapons, that they will be regarded in the future as that but yes, they will certainly change Russian tactics just as the MLRS rockets did. They will almost certainly encourage the Russians to move southwest faster than they might otherwise have done to try to get the cities of Crimea out of range.
But whilst the air launched SDB has proved its worth it was not against a peer enemy like Russia with capable AD. We will see.
What do you make of this? RUSSIA DEFENCE FORUM Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 – Page 18 https://www.russiadefence.net › … › CIS Military Issues 16 Jan 2023 — person JohninMK. Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 pm. by JohninMK. Soviet carton 1958, on the money. Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 … LINK UK Government funded expert research unveils new tactics of the Kremlin’s large-scale disinformation campaign troll factory is targeting politicians and baiting audiences across a number of countries including the UK, South Africa and India. the operation has suspected links to Yevgeniy Prigozhin, founder of infamous bot-farm the Internet Research Agency UK-funded expert… Read more »
👍
At the moment Russian air defenses cannot intercept the M30/31 rockets fired by M270 and HIMARS. Which a range of around 90km. The GLSDB after the SDB has separated from its booster, will be an even harder target to intercept. With a range of about 150km whist carrying 250lbs precision guided warhead. The airfields on Crimea will be an obvious target. Followed by any bridges supporting the resupply of Russian forces on the Eastern bank of the Dneiper river. Such as along the E97 from Crimea to Kherson. This would also place the main supply hub of Belgorad in strike… Read more »
Sorry but you are delusional in you believe that Russian AD can’t shoot down those rockets, along with other MLRS missiles. Given its slower speed the GLSBD munition is even more vulnerable.
Will the be the AD bring craned into high rise Nazi Government buildings in Moscow? The incompetent actions of desperation and a failed Nazi leader! Your Russian GBAD would have trouble shooting down a heckler at a comedy show!
But is it? I have yet to hear or watch any videos, propaganda saying that M270/HIMARS rockets have been intercepted. Of all the air defence systems Russia uses, the SA19 Tunguska and SA22 Pantsir are perhaps the best suited to counter these types of rocket strikes. There is very little point in using a Buk or Tor system nor using S300/400 to try and intercept the rockets, even if they could. On cost grounds alone there is a massive cost advantage in M270/HIMARS favour against these systems. In January this year TASS reported that Pantsir in particular was getting software… Read more »
I’ve seen a video, I’ll try and find it.
Oooooooh seen a video, quick such OSINT is a great reference 😂😂😂👜
Nope. Daveyb has probably forgotten more than you could ever hope to know about missiles and guidance. The only person labouring under eternal delusion here is you, you bullshit as ever uncauterised by any contact with reality.
Let’s be completely honest here. After this Ukraine debacle, I don’t think anyone sees Russia as a peer. The Russian military has been exposed as a Potemkin village of the highest order.
You are watching what is happening in eastern Ukraine at the moment?
That’s exactly why I have come to this conclusion. What’s happening now in eastern Ukraine has been happening for close to a year now. Russia trying and failing to conquer a country right on it’s own border. Not miles away, not halfway around the world, but a country right on the Russian border. Russia has been forced to conscript three hundred thousand new soldiers with another round of mobilization likely coming soon. Russia has been thoroughly humiliated and this monumentally stupid decision to try to invade Ukraine will be remembered as one of the worst strategic blunders in modern history.
Spot on 👍
I would respectfully suggest that you have misread Russian strategy since the early summer. They are not trying to take territory, they are trying to destroy the UA and doing so not far from their railheads is very efficient. There is a difference between mobilisation and conscription. There has been no change to Russian conscription which continues as normal. It is reserves that have been called up for service, much as the US does. Have you seen the latest estimateded casualty figures out of Turkey claimed to be Mossad’s? Horrific. Sadly you have it the wrong way round. The actions… Read more »
“They are not trying to take territory, they are trying to destroy the UA and doing so not far from their railheads is very efficient.” Is that the latest excuse for this failure. They are definitely trying to take territory but they have scaled back their ambitions significantly as they realize the west won’t allow them to take over Ukraine. Russia wasn’t backed into a corner, it put itself there by trying to rebuild it’s “past glory”. and now it’s left with a shattered military that the world now knows is a paper tiger and if not for it’s nuclear… Read more »
Spot on yet again but johnskie will never be allowed to agree as he is a monitored troll account. Ask him to type “Putin is a wanker”, and condemn the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia…..he won’t as he can’t! 😂
“Ask him to type “Putin is a wanker”, and condemn the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia…..he won’t as he can’t! 😂””
hahahahahaha
That made me laugh out loud.
Oh my your monitored account is having to work overtime my little troll! Getting worried as your stint in the low flying tank turret display team may be coming a little closer! You are sooooo amusing with your nonsense.
Wow !!! Ha ha !! So the lumbering oaf Lavrov has met with a few tin pot dictators from semi failed impoverished and corrupt states. No doubt to help recruitment for the Wagner organised crime group. What a stunning diplomatic coup !! Said no one ever.
Eastern Ukraine mmmmmm a bunch of private contractors containing convicted criminals, rapists, murders, nonces are being used as cannon fodder to extend a small Russian gain, in order to ensure the Wagner wanker head shed has a shot at Putins title of head Nazi, while the regular (use that term loosely) Russian army is filling itself up with incompetent drafts of older men, while nearly half a million younger men do a runner to other countries! Yes, have I missed anything troll boy?
Yes you have, reality.
So what did I say was incorrect my little troll? Please refer to an incorrect statement in that paragraph…..that’s a no then troll farm boy! God you are making it far to easy.
JohninMK is a troll which I have confirmed in my post above.
We all suspected it but you pretty much proved it. Great catch.
Peer enemy? Russia? Oh dear, oh dear oh dear…..again any reason why you removed your posts from the RDF?
Removed what posts? After a post ceases to be the last in a thread only a mod can remove it over there.
Love the desperation of your replies. As when you deem it necessary to defend your position against threats, you respond, when challenged about a military subject, which you have claimed, and proven to be incorrect once again, you don’t.
Similarily your replies, very predictable and devoid of factual argument.
Factual argument, from you, from a propaganda troll…..oh my, how amusing. Every “fact” you have spewed has been quickly dispelled by the numerous military SMEs on here, over the last 12 months. Come on, make more of an effort at defending your position, and, if your not a troll I dare you to type “Putin is a nonce loser and is acting like a Nazi”……..no, thought not my little monitored troll.
Hey Johnskie, why have you removed your posts and comments from the Russian Defence Forum? Any reason? Oh dear, how sad, caught out again, never mind!
The cartoon post is still there and on the money, many WW2 German officers moved almost seamlessly into similar positions in the post WW2 German Army. The second link hits a UKGov page from last May and nothing to do with me.
Not used the link my little troll went on that Nazi Russian forum myself to recce your nonsense, and to confirm what we all know and get bored with, your a propaganda pushing troll. Same as your posts starting 2014, promoting the Nazi invasion of Crimea onwards. Remember Farouk clocked you that time. Silly troll, bad drills.
So why did you accuse me of something I didn’t do when you hadn’t even checked it? This is the cartoon that all the fuss is about
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmiUnkxX0AI0jf7?format=jpg&name=small
Er, the considerable pro Russian Nazi posts supporting the illegal invasion of Crimea since 2014, on your fav russkie websites! I don’t give a flying fuck about a sad cartoon, as delete/ insert Wermacht/Russian/Soviet uniform, all scum of the same pond, fully supported by you. No excuses this time, as you cannot support or excuse this Russian invasion if you were anything but a sad Russian troll.
…and we willingly sold CR1 with Chobham armour to Jordan over 20 years ago.
It’s what we do best sadly sell it off to the highest bidder and fail to invest.
Monday 6 February
“Britishvolt secures new life as Australian start-up is selected preferred bidder
It is unclear at this stage exactly what Recharge is buying but its founder suggests there is hope that a UK gigafactory will arise from the ashes of Britishvolt.”
Nigel, my point about selling off CR1 to Jordan was no lament – it was a comment on how we were OK with classified equipment going to a third country, unlike the US.
I think everyone is too hung up on the media hype of tanks.Yes there is a lot of military personnel who know more than I do. But the pictures I see is of Russians walking and few tanks. NLAW’s and javelin etc seem to have won that contest. Surely what the Ukraine needs is a lot and I mean thousands of machine guns. Lot cheaper, a lot easier to use and you do not necessarily need air cover which many military commentators have said is the case when using armour ? Russia seems to have used up most of its… Read more »
The Russians talked the talk of combined arms and maneuver units. But come the day of reckoning, have so far been found wanting. They do not on the face of it, seem to employ what we describe as combined arms tactics. A lot of the NLAW/Javelin and other ATGW losses of Russian tanks could have been mitigated by using combined arms tactics. Where infantry support the tanks, which have artillery firing ahead for suppression or have them on the end of a radio call and have SHORAD in close attendance. With everything backed up by engineers and logistics. Personally, I… Read more »
Going by the photographs and what the MoD have actually said, all I’m reading into this is that they’ve quickly mastered driving the tanks (and not referring to anyhing else, so far). Something not to wonder at if you have driven other tanks or tracked armoured vehicles before.
After learning their individual skills, they will learn how to operate the tank as an integrated team, then do Troop training then do Sqn training.Also, it is the maintainer training that will take the time.
Whatever it is we’re sending it needs to be quick. “The situation on Ukraine’s eastern front lines is getting tough, President Volodymyr Zelensky has said. Ukrainian troops are facing a very difficult situation in three heavily contested towns in Donetsk – Bakhmut, Vuhledar and Lyman – Mr Zelensky said. The UK’s defence ministry said Ukrainian soldiers are becoming isolated in embattled Bakhmut. The head of Russia’s notorious Wagner group said there are fierce battles for every street in some areas of the town. Russian forces have been attempting to seize control of Bakhmut for months – making it the longest… Read more »
The best way to deal with Russia is to remove its air superiority, and degrade its artillery. Starting to get concerned over lack of F16s or Tranche 1 Typhoons being sent over.
I’m not sure that Russia has much air superiority in Ukraine, Ukrainian AD has made the skies above Ukraine a dangerous place for Russian pilots. The thing with mooted F16 / Gripen/ T1 Eurofighter supply is training. Not training as in flying them, but the kind of across the spectrum training with fighter cover, AAR, targeting, ISTAR, JTAC etc that would enable the advantages of these aircraft to be utilised. This is something that Nato forces have practised for generations, simply sticking a few Ukrainian pilots in F16s doesn’t mean that another ‘shock and awe’ air campaign similar to what… Read more »
There is a lengthy article in AFM about SU34/27 usage. Apparently, the Russians have lost 17 to various air defence systems, particularly MANPADS. They also say the onboard EW and a host of other systems do not work well, hence the lack of a modern fighter over Ukraine.
And no doubt they will lose more in the months ahead!
There’s a reason for the delay in sending Tranche 1 Typhoon as I posted in reply to Mr Monkey Spanker.
BAE Systems asked to explore bringing retiring Typhoons back to life in a crisis
LINK
I’d rather we just ordered more new as our assembly line goes idle once the Qatari Typhoons are delivered. So for the first time in over 70 years UK will not be making a fast jet, if it was shipbuilding stopping there would be uproar.
I think there’s a clue in this paragraph which tends to suggest the reasoning behind getting a quote. Tempest will begin to arrive sometime after the mid to late 2030s.
Spain receives first upgraded Tranche 1 Eurofighter fighter jet
“The report cited brigadier general Leon-Antonio Maches Michavila as saying at a conference in Berlin last year that the country intends to take Eurofighter Tranche 1 capability upgrades as far as the early 2030s, with an out-of-service date (OSD) scheduled for 2040.”
LINK
I think there’s a difference in what UK want to do. BAE recently reported the T1 was upgradeable but…
‘structural and avionic modifications’ are needed.
The T2 and 3 airframes are different so it’s more than computer hardware or software to do a full upgrade. And with lines running dry just bud more. Tempest may be IoC by 2035 but as we known to be fully capable fast jets normally have blocks or tranches to add full capability so could be 2040+ for Tempest to meet its full capability.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/upgrade-and-retention-of-tranche-1-eurofighters-technically-feasible-bae-systems-tells-uk-parliament
Rebuilding old airframes can also keep a production line going. We did this with harriers for quite some time.
And Nimrod and look how well that went for BAe….
The Russians haven’t achieved air superiority over the Ukrainian battlefield. They have resorted to firing thousands of missiles at Ukraine. As there is a complete lack of a strategic air campaign against Ukraine F16 and Eurofighter aren’t needed now, they might be in the near future, so getting Ukrainian pilots trained up on the F16 would be a good idea.
One of the main issues facing both Ukraine and Russia is the lack of effective air defence suppression. Both sides have the Kh31P. Which is an older generation anti-radiation missile. It has a very limited radar bandwidth. Using a swap-out receiver tuned to a particular band. The Russians have the newer Kh31PM with a wider bandwidth receiver. But both of these weapons have a serious flaw. Turn off the targeted radar, the missile will fly a largely ballistic path to its last known location based on signal strength. Which means it could miss the radar by miles. Compare this with… Read more »
If there are problems with Leo1 and ammo Germany could convert many of them to recovery tanks . Many videos show ukraine tanks recovering other armour putting strain on transmission shortening the lifespan of mechanicals, sufficient wreckers and heavy transport to transport damaged armour to the rear for repair may be of more value than the tanks themselves
Good, I didn’t doubt they would for one second.
Now give them enough tanks to make up a full battalion , to make the logistics effort to integrate these tanks into the Ukraine forces worth their while.
We are after all only upgrading 170 odd to CH3 standard or has the MoD finally come to their senses and realised we need a lot more tanks
148 to be upgraded of which 112 will serve in deployable units. We bought 386 CR2 for the restructured post Cold War army.
Thank you for the more accurate numbers. I still stand by my point we need more, a lot more.
However judging by yesterdays news report our esteemed PM and his chancellor are still talking numbers not real capability.
Right now I think we should just disband the military and get all the embarrassment over at once.
All three services have been gutted to the point , they are a joke!!
I fully agree we need more tanks. Good staff-work following the fall of the USSR and Warsaw Pact forces determined that we needed an army of 120,000 with 386 tanks, for the post-Cold War world. Yet the army was cut to 102,000 then to 95,000 then to 82,000 and now to 72,000 – four totally unjustified cuts in 30 years. Tanks were cut from 386 to 227 and are heading for 148, as we know.
Please update us on the PMs statement – I missed that.
No official statement as such ,as yet other than there is no additional funding and that the MoD has already had an additional 16 billion ( I think)
So they are playing politics when they should be talk capabilities,
Off the tank topic, but I noticed that the list of latest UK supplied material contains medium range air defense missiles. Which would these be….ASRAAM? And how would they be launched? I haven’t heard about complete Sky Sabre systems being delivered.
AMRAAM for NASAM
👍 thanks.
It will be interesting to see the comparison battlefield results between Challenger II. Leapord II And Abrams.
That’s true. Wouldn’t mind betting Chally again gets the award for the longest range tank kill – and Abrams gets the award for most fuel consumed in a day.
I don’t know anything about tanks but why would you design a tank that’s hard to use?
Surely the best tanks are as simple to use as possible so that the people inside can just get on with the job of driving about and looking for targets to shoot at?
Yeah, great this tank has 35 different types of ammo configuration that can destroy any target known to man but you’ve got to find the submenu in windows XP and hope it doesn’t blue screen on you for a laugh to select the right ammo.
Russia is the past master of creating very simple easy to use tanks…they are great right until they roast their crews alive and have always died in droves when faces with complex western MBTs. The complexity of modern western MBTs is a lot to do with keeping the crews alive even if the tank gets knocked out or allowing the tank to stay mobile to not get knocked out as well as survive lots of enters of different types hitting it….75tons of armour travelling over roughy ground at 25mph+ does not for a simple vehicle make, storing things that go… Read more »
The Russian always had to take into account the very poor training of the crew and make it very solder proof. there was never any cross training so if you lost a crew member you were stranded
Good progress in a week. I presume they are talking about all 4 crew members learning their individual skills on Chally. Next – to learn how to ‘fight the tank’ as a crew, then to move on to collective training at Troop and then Squadron level.
In parallel will be the training for their maintainers – that will take quite a few weeks to even cover the basics!
Well, should we have been training them since 2014(?) one would hope they have developed Western tank and mech inf fighting in combined arms.
However, you’re the SME on maintenance, Ukrainians in common with Czechs, Pokes, Slovaks etc are quite mechanically gifted, so, what would you time guesstimate for skills acquisition?
The other question is deployment: I can see the Leopards in the Donbass, however, these and the Abrams to the North of Kiev to form the nucleus of two battle groups facing Belorus. Thoughts?
From Forces Net, 30/11/18 – “Since 2015, British military personnel have helped support Ukraine against Russian aggression, training over 9,500 students”. It seems like the training was Infantry-focussed, and below Bn-level. Then there was no thought that Ukraine would be lobbying for and getting western tanks. I have no experience of technically training those with little to no English and no prior specific equipment knowledge to maintain Challys. However, I would estimate that a basic maintainer course for Ukrainian Vehicle Mechanics/Vehicle Electricians/Electronics Technicians who have been fully trained back home on T-series tanks, could be delivered in 3 weeks and… Read more »
Graham, thanks for your insight! Appreciate your thoughts. STANAG 6001/1 has around 60 – 72 hours of teaching, with the Direct Method, I feel you could get soldiers speaking English for Military within 2 weeks with an intensive course. However, they need prax and that means breaking them up at night so that they are only with native speakers – tough call. Getting their SNCOs and Officers on board means changing 40ish years of Soviet indoctrination, giving them Eng4Mil and …integrating… their tactics with NATO; no one likes being told their wrong. As you note, getting a single platform working… Read more »
My comments were on tech training for the mechanics, and you have usefully added in the language training that they might need beforehand. I hope there is time to do this before the Russian Spring offensive and the tanks getting out to UKR.
You mention Log support – and I have mentioned engineering support. It would be interesting to hear what the arangements amount to in both cases.
IT’S a shame that we Brits didn’t keep our Chieftains in storage ,we had good numbers ,good 120mm Rifle gun .Sure these would of been a good help to our Ukraine friend’s .Yes there old and early Mks Engine problems later versions 10,11 much better .T72s T80s crews on the Battlefield wouldn’t like to see them in Anger.👹
We didn’t even keep our old CR1s in storage for a rainy day.
When an equipment is declared obsolete it is sold or scrapped ASAP. It costs too much to maintain and store lots of obsolete kit and we also don’t have the storage space.
Unlike the rest of the nearly 1000 Challenger 1 and 2 tanks that were built, these 14 tanks will finally be doing precisely what the British taxpayer bought them for at significant cost – fight and defeat the Russian Army. The fact that the lives of Ukrainian rather British crews will be at stake is a moot point. My concern is that the Russians’ aren’t completely stupid, they are slowly (and at huge cost) learning how to deal with some of the best and most sophisticated weapons that the West has. Also, if they capture a CR2, Leopard 2 and/or… Read more »
This war had nothing to do with Britain in tye beginning.
Us involving ourselves would be similiar to Russia arming the IRA when Britain was still fighting to prevent Irish independence or if Russia got involved with arming Argentina against Britain in the Falklands War.
We cant even defend out own island properly so why the heck are we so desperate to spend all this money on another country so far away?
Brexit is the root of our problems not Putin
Steve wrote: “”This war had nothing to do with Britain in tye beginning.”” Actually it doe’s after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Ukraine found itself with around 2000 nukes , in return for destroying them, the US, Russia and the Uk guaranteed the security of the Ukraine with the signing of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances on the 5th of Dec 1994. After Moscow renegaded on that in 2014 with the annexation of the Crimea, the US and Uk honoured the above by helping the Ukraine by training their soldiers to be able to defend their country in… Read more »
100%
it’s not our business ?……Barring every geological imperative to prevent Russia successfully using force to annex another European nation and everything that means for a future conflict with NATO. Ignoring everything else.. The simple fact is this man deployed an illegal weapon of mass destruction on a UK city, killing and harming UK citizens. We should be moving Heaven and earth to remove this man, he has made it very clear he is our enemy and does not respect our nation’s sovereignty or any others. finally we signed security promises to ensure the sovereignty and the boards of Ukraine. US… Read more »
I think he deployed two. The nuclear poison used on the naturalised British citizen Litvinyenko counts as well as the nerve agent used against Skripal. (I still can’t get over the callousness of its “disposal” through donating it to a charity, almost certain to kill further random innocents. That was state terrorism at its worst.)
So I count nuclear as one and chemical as two. Either is a casus belli.
Agree.
The Soviet Union DID arm the IRA! The Czech semtex got to the IRA how?
You need to sign off as “Steve, London Oblast”, otherwise no one will get the satire.
Would be interesting to know if the American still had any M60, Sheridan or Caddilacs Stingrays in storage. Might a better option as they could be airlifted in and way less sophisticated, particularly the M60. I imagine Sheridan could do a lot of damage with its 152mm main gun and wouldn’t be such an issue if they were lost in action as the tech is quite dated now.
As far as the Stingray light tank, that was never in US service. The Thai Army bought 106 of them starting 1988 and, IIRC, are the only operator.
Of course, if we wanted to get creative about it, we might look into buying them from the Thais to pass on to the Ukrainians (maybe replacing them with our shiny new Griffin light tanks?).
The reason the uk would pursue this is every different type of tank effectivly doubles the supply chain.the uk cannot afford to send 100 challengers to ukraine as it would leave them with a tiny tank force and few to use as sacrificial for spare parts .there are hundreds of leapord tanks throughout europe not being used you could easily round up 250 examples and send then to ukraine without it affecting those countries defence capabiltys significantly.but there is no political will for this.plus the leapord 2 is still in production so new examples can be ordered.challenger 2 cannot go… Read more »
A very interesting video of a Ukrainian soldier firing an RPG at a T72 from behind and pointblank range sees his round bounce off the rear of the turret.
Could it be that it glances it rather than bounced, maybe a better aimed shot would have taken it out. Although big balls award goes to that Ukrainian who his yards from the tank and popped up to have a go at it.
Wasp wrote: “”Could it be that it glances it rather than bounced,”” Yes you are correct, as the RPG contains a Piezoelectric fuse which sends a signal to the detonator when crushed on impact with the target. The simple fact it didn’t go off and the round went off into the ether like Rick ‘very famous Irish man’ it is quite clear the round ‘Glanced’ off the back bin rather than bounced. As for a better shot, the angle didn’t help and i suppose the bin didn’t help either as it would have provided extra space for the jet to… Read more »
Excellent informative response
Could be the other problem with Russian weapons, age! If the RPG was old and not stored correctly, it may have corroded internally. Or perhaps it had been jostling around in the bottom of an ammo bin. Where its fins were no longer straight. Thereby making it incapable of flying straight.
Having been witnessed to a number of RPG attacks. I can honestly say they don’t all fly straight and don’t all go off when they hit something.
That was interesting.
RUSSIA DEFENCE FORUM
Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 – Page 18
https://www.russiadefence.net › … › CIS Military Issues
16 Jan 2023 — person JohninMK. Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 pm. by JohninMK. Soviet carton 1958, on the money. Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 …
LINK
Latest sitrep from ISW makes you wonder who can build up their force fastest.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-february-4-2023
The Russians seem to be doing a lot of attacking, which normally means they will be taking a lot more casualties than the defenders. But with FIBUA, its going to be 50-50
Various unnamed sources being reported in the news today saying that there is no additional money for resupply of items given to Ukraine, with the mini defense review focusing on the navy to smoke screen the gaps with the land forces. Bright side it seems to have been sent back for rereview and now won’t make the budget in march. Looks like they are trying to push the problem until after the election.
S.O.P for the lot of them.
Do the politicos not realise we need to next be prepared for a war in Europe, not in ‘the Seven Seas’.
In other news: there appear to be problems with the US Mobile Protected Firepower programme. The light(40+ tons) tank, based on the same platform as Ajax is proving to be excessively noisy. There are also concerns about toxic fumes from the 105mm gun entering the vehicle. The same issue plagued the Stryker based MGS which has been removeed from service.
General Dynamics seem to be less than competent.
Yes, the Stryker also had other issues.
Let’s hope China dosnt send Type 99s to Russia if they think the rest of the world is helping Ukraine. Also this article is 90% false our son is currently in Germany training the Ukraine tank crews and they are definitely not picking it up fast.
Also what happens when the Ukrainians lose all these MBTs like they have lost over 500 of theirs already.
The Orcs will be getting T99s but not in the way they want! Watch Chinese tanks rolling into Siberia when they judge the time is right!
The west is doing a lot. I hope it enough and in time. An enemy with huge resource (people) that does not care about casualties and is content to invoke Nazi and the Great Patriotic War will be tough to beat irrespective of incompetence. Remember they did not do well during 1941 and most of 1942.
Getting them airborne is not good for idler arms on landing !
Good to see the UK is in the mix helping Ukraine out in this war and the list of supplies is pretty comprehensive, the problem a lot of people are having with it though is the lack of numbers when it comes to MBT’s. It is as if this aid is being provided on the basis of defence rather than offence so throttling Ukraine’s ability to go on the offensive when anyone with any knowledge of such things recognises that anything less than division strength with all the bells and whistles to back it up will have little to no… Read more »
Always find it amazing that people are surprised that others can become competent without having completed 50 courses of various types. Most of the people who keep the world going in engineering, infrastructure and a raft of other areas learnt their trades by working with other more experienced people, not by completing multiple choice questions set by people who themselves know 4/5ths of sod all.
God help us when the Boomers and the generation after them who they trained retire, we will really be up the creek without a paddle then.
While we are on the subject we need to order CV90 and stop messing about with Ajax. Get the Navy or RAF to run Army Equipment purchasing and be done with. At least something will get done and everyone will be happy. Sue General Dynamics USA and prove that USA Law isn’t the only one that over reaches!
Ajax had fixes done and completed User Validation Trials. It is now on Reliability Growth Trials. Why do you want to stop this work?
How many more times🙄 Ajax does NOT do what CV 90 does! One is a recce vehicle the other an IFV!
And . . . When will the UK start manufacturing them once again?
7 February 2023
Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands will supply Ukraine with as many as 178 older generation Leopard 1 battle tanks in the latest shipment of heavy military equipment as Kyiv braces for an expected intensification of fighting with invading Russian forces.
In a joint statement on Tuesday, the defense ministers said the first deliveries would arrive in Ukraine in “a few months” in a package that includes training, spare parts and ammunition. Belgium has also shown interest in participating, they said.
LINK
Seems to be a lot of rumours today that we are considering giving Ukraine jets.
I can only assume the idea is T1 Typhoons; but surely their maintenance and operation would take too long to make an impact ?
I do wish I didnt have the feeling the UK Government isnt using Ukraine as an opportunity to slash our Armed Forces…
What is fact is that we are to train Ukraine air force pilots to fly a modern western jet – F-35B or Typhoon? The latter I suspect, is that would fit with us going on to gift Tr1 Typhoons.
The British military has been privatising since the 80s.
My first experience of privatisation was the officers and sergeant messes being contractorised way back, probably in the 80s. Aramark and Eurest spring to mind. It was not popular.
I read a good article in the socialistworker about the privatisation of the military. The Yanks applauded us for it.
It would be worth building a list as to where our armed forces are contractorised/privatised for the benefit of those who do not know. I start with the afore-mentioned contractorisation of officers and WOs & Sgts messes, wider administration of barracks services (including gate security, catering in soldiers dining rooms, canteen/shops, barracks buildings maintenance), some provision of barracks (yes, really) by PFI, provision and operation by PFI of HET, third line engineering support for the army, provision by PFI of aerial tankers, operation of aerial targetry for the army, provision and maintenance of married quarters (or Service Families Accomodation to… Read more »
In my current job my first employer was Medirest, Eurest being part of the same group, since then I’ve had two more Companies providing the same services.