It is currently envisioned that the Type 32 Frigate will be “a platform for autonomous systems”.
Kevan Jones, MP for North Durham,a sked in a Parliamentary written question:
“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, when the Government plans to announce further details of the components of a Type 32 Frigate.”
Jeremy Quin, Minister of State for Ministry of Defence, answered:
“The programme and procurement strategy for Type 32 will be decided following the concept phase, which has not yet been launched.
Further work is required to develop the operational concept however it is envisioned that Type 32 will be a platform for autonomous systems, adding to the Navy’s capabilities for missions such as anti-submarine warfare and mine countermeasures.”
Quin also added that the number of ships in the class will be determined by the requirements placed on Defence by the Government, and the outcome of the development work on the operational concept.
Parliament has taken a keen interest in the procurement of the new warships and the Commons Library has published several briefing papers on this topic, this following is sourced from them.
What are the Royal Navy’s current plans?
The Royal Navy’s existing fleet of thirteen Type 23 frigates will begin to leave service on an annual basis from 2023.
Frigates can be used in a variety of roles, including warfighting, maritime security, counter piracy and international engagement. Some vessels are designed for a specialist anti-submarine warfare role with a quiet hull.
The Type 23 Frigates will be replaced by two new types of frigate:
Type 26 frigates
These will replace the specialist anti-submarine warfare (ASW) Type 23 frigates currently in service.
The Ministry of Defence has committed to buying eight Type 26 frigates and signed a contract for the first three in July 2017. The ships will be built at BAE Systems’ shipyards on the Clyde. The first in the City Class, HMS Glasgow, has an in-service date of 2027. The MOD says it expects to sign a contract for the second batch of five Type 26 frigates in the early 2020s.
Type 31 frigates
These will be general-purpose frigates to replace the non-ASW Type 23s. The MoD signed a contract with Babcock for five ships in November 2019. Manufacture will begin in 2021 with an in-service date of 2027. The overall programme cost is expected to be £2bn.
Surprise frigates?
The Government made a similar surprise announcement about frigates in the previous defence review, the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), in 2015. Rather than confirming the expected build of 12 Type 26 frigates, the Government announced plans for eight Type 26s, supported by five new general-purpose frigates (the Type 31s).
The SDSR said:
“We will also launch a concept study and then design and build a new class of lighter, flexible general purpose frigates so that by the 2030s we can further increase the total number of frigates and destroyers.”
The Prime Minister’s announcement of the new Type 32 frigates comes in the context of the current defence review.
The 19th of November statement on the integrated review also announced the review’s work would conclude in early 2021 and informed the House of Commons of its “first outcome”: an increase in defence spending of £24.1bn over the next four years.
What is the origin of the Type 32?
The first mention of a new Type 32 frigate came in the Prime Minister’s 19 November statement. He said: “We are going to develop the next generation of warships, including multi-role research vessels and Type 32 frigates.”
The Type 32 was not mentioned in the Government’s 2017 shipbuilding strategy, which overhauled the way the MOD procures warships for the Royal Navy. Nor was it mentioned in the review of the strategy published in November 2019.
Early speculation suggests they could be ‘batch II’ Type 31s, but not necessarily based on the Type 31 design. Several MPs have tabled questions on the Type 32. More information may be provided in the integrated review or in the update to the 30-year Naval Ship Acquisition Plan, due to be published after the integrated review.
ASW and MCM are both ‘warfighting’ rather than maritime security roles. So a frigate designed from the outset to use off-board autonomous systems as its main sensors and weapon systems? The RN has carried out multiple experiments with XLUUVs, USVs, UAVs for surveilance and weapons delivery, swarming drones and has a new autonomus MCM system. Interesting times.
The ships could host:
To do all that and have the usual standard equipment we will need a bigger class of ship
They said “mother ship” so to me it needs to be a much larger dedicated vessel
A T31/32 would at minimum need to be a stretched version
As an example ORCA XLUUV is 15 metres long
How many of those will we need ? on top of other USV, UAV, weapons, personnel
and everything else…
I posted in the last weeks T32 thread with saying along the same lines
At best I think a stretched T31\T32 could act as a “host” for carrying spares in a wider task group but for me it need to me another class of ship for “mother ship”
As part of the Expeditionary Strike forces we therefore.. lean towards then a Littoral Operation Vessel (LOV)
And again I point out the RUSI paper which makes a bloody good case
201911_op_requirements_for_the_uks_amphibious_forces_in_the_future_operating_environment_kaushal_watling_web.pdf
*Correction on the ORCA its longer
I cant see a need to be able to move something that big in a surface ship (defined by what w me build in numbers vs capital ships).
Something like that stick it in a dock ship to get to theatre then leave it there. Or use a barge/flo flo for tpt.
Once the unmanned vehicle gets to the size and endurance of these XLUUVs, why try and squeeze it onto/into a mothership? Let it operate from a base of some kind with a handful of larger (amphib) ships able to do sea basing if needed but dont blow the “fleet mothership” up in size and cost by trying to make them all capable of that.
We still need numbers and ships with kengths, beams and draughts that can go where we want them.
Morning
Operating from a base depends on its location in theatre so yes it will also be able to go from a naval base but it need to get there via transportation ;P
But within the RNs, Expeditionary roles aka Littoral Response Groups then you are using them as part of Littoral Strike, raiding a shore line, to be able to push forward
ULUUVs and other UUV,UAV capable of carrying and using weapons will be a part of the doctrine ,
They however only so much endurance!
So a Littoral Operation Vehicle (LOV) much like the Point Class RO-RO as already looked at for the idea can be used as part of the Amphibious group
Full of SBS, Royal Marines, drones incl ORCA, Wildcat and Merlin capable, vehicles incl mobile fires
You need all equipment on a ship that to get ashore
We already do it with present ships that have just escaped being cut, now that does not mean we sit back and stop future development of vessels needed
Building new dedicated ships for Littoral Operations needs to happen
Giving and increase in naval size and creation of jobs and supply chains
And we are entering a positive era in Expeditionary warfare
And my view is simple the T32 is a welcome asset in the future but will only be able to carry enough as a force multiplier
To call it a mother ship would be daft
HMS Bulwark etc and the QE, PoW now those are motherships
But who knows what they come up with….
I think we are agreeing – I dont see that the frigate end should be transporting something like this (XLUUV) because that drives frigate size up too much, but yes amphibs and littoral “strike” (daft, prefer “operations”) ships that have docks/large scale accomodation and aviation are suitable. Alternatively given this isnt really an “entirely global drop of the hat” requirement and we can pretty much guess that the Med and Arabian Sea are 99% of likely usage – then forward basing it is quite feasible.
The issue there is we dont seem to have scope for seperate “heavy” amphibs such as LPD/LHD and the “light” LSS types hence the current seeming stalemate on what happens.
I do think things like this (Orca etc) are more self supporting than say the MCM USVs and thats the kind of thing that could go on a frigate which in that case is acting as a mothership – just as a T22/23/26 is when its Sea King/Merlin is out hunting.
The Damen Crossover (combatant) would be a good starting point, good Sern and side multi mission bay with both stern ramp and side launch abilities, good weapons fit Gun, Anti Air and Anti Ship, frigate speed and 5,500 tons all at a reasonable price. Able to carry 120+ RMs and with some mix and match with the Amphib variant two medium size helicopters in hangers. As well as a possible Towed Array.
As I said it is a good starting point or a concept to be built on. If we did go down that route then it is possible that they could start construction in two-three years time. This would be a good idea as the project could be started before the next general election making it more difficult to stop. Especially if the cancelation would cost as much as the construction.
The Danish Absalon class is also a reasonable starting point with the added advantage of the existing relationship with T31. It also actually exists in built form, so with a bit of cooperation, many of the modular systems may be able to be pre-tested.
The RFA Bay-class ships have been seeing a lot of use as motherships for minehunting and other purposes. Perhaps we should build more Bay-class vessels and call them frigates?
It doesn’t necessarily have to do it all at once… attached 1 to a carrier group with a couple of t26 it wouldn’t need asw but mcm would be a good addition. Attached a couple to a littoral group without t26, you could have 1 asw and 1 mcm.
Good point Dave,
Attaching MCM to a present/future LSG, ASG or Carrier group is normal I’m guessing
In future the T31 will be as proposed or can be forward based, so can providing extra support for the above groups
But for me the new T32 design will hopefully not be the familiar “Frigate” shape
Lets be inventive with ship designs and play with drones fair enough
But MCM should be a dedicated MCM only platform with an ability for self defence not a ASW / AAW warfighting guns blazing ship.
As I mentioned above as has Dave we can provide cover the MCM via a passing RN or ally ship or attached task group
It just seems to be a blending of resources and I don’t like it
But lets see what they really com up with!
Let’s hope the focus is not fully on autonomous, as these systems are mainly just paper platforms and in the meantime the platform needs to be able to defend itself and fight back, which means it needs missiles and helicopters, both of which are in short supply and costly.
I wonder if these frigates are what has become of the littoral assault ships, just glossed up as a frigate. Effectively a mothership for other platforms.
The point class aka Littoral Operation Vehicle (LOV) for Littoral Strike missions are a brilliant idea and T31 and this new T32 “idea” would be a mixture as part of any expeditionary force
That’s why the point class is being looked at! but for a T32 to do the job hmm sorry not for me
OK. But will the Type 32 Frigate also be expected launch these autonomous vessels (storage capacity on board etc) or are the drone vessels expected to have the same range as the Type 32 to be able to shadow it?
Also, why wouldn’t this capability be made available to all HMS ships anyway?
Probably will in future, but have to start somewhere. Type 32 will probably be a test bed for these systems.
Guaranteed that Type 4X destroyer, when it comes, will have at least some of these unmanned systems on board.
I would bet on the Type 45’s replacement being even bigger, steel is cheap after all! No, the main reason I predict that the ship will be bigger, is that the ship will operate a number of largish UAVs, but still require a manned helicopter, so a lot of space will be required for a larger hangar.
The T4X will do the same job as the current T45, i.e. provide air defence for a task group. However, if she is protecting a small group and there is no carrier to provide AEW, they will have to rely on the ship’s radar. However, the ship’s radar horizon is still restricted by how high you place the radar. I can see the T4X going for four planner AESA arrays for long range and volume searching and keeping a rotating twin AESA radar high up on the mast. As this provides the best compromise for pushing out the radar horizon and thereby detecting sea skimming missiles earlier.
However, to really push out the radar horizon, the destroyer requires its own organic AEW. I don’t believe a tethered aerostat would be suitable, as its less weather tolerant than an aircraft. This role does not require a manned aircraft, as it only needs to carry the radar, a data-link and probably an electro-optical turret. All the signal processing and control can be done remotely aboard the ship. An airborne radar not means you detect a supersonic sea skimming missile early, but means you have enough time to take appropriate action to counter the threat, or fire a second missile if the first one misses.
This therefore, would require quite a large VTOL UAV. Something that has good electrical power generation, long duration and hopefully can reach an altitude of 10,000ft, as this would push the radar horizon to 123nm. But is also suitably robust to operate in crap weather. I must admit I am still quite a fan of the Bell V247 Vigilant tilt-rotor UAV.
This aircraft has a un-refuelled duration approaching 17 hours and can reach altitudes over 25,000ft. Therefore, if it was equipped with a suitable radar, operating from this height, it would push out the radar horizon to 194nm. When the wing and rotors are folded up, it has a smaller footprint than the Wildcat’s fuselage; i.e. it’s about 11m long and just under 2m wide. The aircraft could also be used for other missions, such as surveillance and strike. Therefore the ship would probably need a minimum of 2, preferably 3, plus the manned helicopter.
The combination of the ship’s long range search radar and the UAVs horizon scanning radar, would mean the ship could provide a significantly more effective air defence umbrella.
Last time we started discussing this and going into power and weight requirements our comments disappeared…..
This is the current problem, there are no UAV currently or in concept, big enough to replace merlin and carry what it does to do its missions. Also once they become big enough to do so, the cost will scale and complexity/maintenance will grow, resulting any savings from using UAV will be mainly lost.
Agreed. We did this originally with MATCH which became Wasp, because something that could move people and kit around was vastly more useful for a given level of spend (helipad/hangar, air vehicle, maintenance etc.) given that is about 95% of the taskings for shipborne helos.
UAVs are an addition not replacement for helos, although arguably you could end up with a ASW specialised UAV just used when needed and a simpler utility helo for all the GP tasks.
One issue is maintenance, having 2 different types of air vehicle on a ship is expensive in needing more people and more training plus 2 spares lines vs having 2 of 1 type.
What’s the logic behind the numbering sequence for successive types: Type 23, Type 26, Type 31, Type 32?
To be honest mate, I’ve often wondered the same. We seem to skip a few, Type 24’s and 5’s seem to have passed through the net, as have Types 27, 28, 29 and 30. I’m guessing someone on here will soon offer some enlightenment !!!!
There is an article somewhere on the internet that details the proposed Type 24 and 25 that didn’t seem to go anywhere in the early 90’s. I think post the Falkland’s they just decided to build 1 decent frigate that could do everything and build lots of them rather than 3 different variants.
No idea how they jumped from T26 to T31 though unlss it was to differentiate more between ASW and GP.
T31 was created on think defence website – pretty arbitrarily really
Post ’82 John Nott, the then Defence Secretary, thought you could do everything with small cheap ship and that big ships were ‘useless as they presented big targets’ and various other bits of rubbish along with aircraft carriers are useless because all aircraft will be shot down by missiles.
So the other versions of the T23 were born.
Thankfully that rubbish got shelved and we ended up with a pretty fully equipped T23 that has done the RN very well.
Bear in mind that the cheapo though process did extend to the hull & machinery life of 18 years and that was never reversed. Hence some of the expensive LIFEX going on now.
I believe Type 27 was to have been a GP frigate to complement the Type 26, possibly using the same hull, but the plans changed and we got the Type 31 instead.
The current numbering system dates back to the early 1950s when the RN wanted a new family of fleet escorts. Type 1X for ASW, 4X AAW, 6X Aircraft Direction and 8X Multi-role. Type 1X became 2X when the numbers were used up. 3X is new – could either be a new ‘General Purpose’ category or a continuation of the ASW series. Probably the former.
My thoughts exactly. The logic is likely that a 2X number would suggest a successor to T26 before its even built, and an 8X designation implies a follow-on to HMS Bristol as a big destroyer.
A new line of 3X vessels as spiritual successors to the Type 21s fits rather nicely: lighter frigates aimed at exportability.
If the T45’s had been fitted out as originally conceived with Harpoon, torpedo launchers and strike length VLS for Tomahawk then it would have been appropriate to call them the T83 class as proper successors to the larger, multi-role destroyers of old.
Hi Challenger,
T8x was not just reserved for destroyers (T82 HMS Bristol) as the Type 81 was built as a sloop although entered service as a GP frigate.
The original intention was to build the T81 as sloops so even though they were built in the ’60’s they were equipped to 2x 4.5″ open back gun turrets recovered from WWII destroyers. However, I believe they were the first RN ships to be equipped with a helicopter from the get go.
They were single screwed ships to save money, but then someone more than blew the budget by making them the first warships to be fitted with Combined Steam / Gas turbine propulsion. As a result they were not very manoeuvrable and and expensive so the class was cut from from over 20 to 7. Somethings never change…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal-class_frigate
They are an often overlooked post war class and although they were not particularly successful because of a lack of size, htey did achieve some notable firsts.
Cheers CR
Type 24 and 25 were designed before Type 23! (or rather Type 23 was redesigned). Type 24 was an export ASW frigate (based on the original Type 23 concept) and Type 25 a cut down low cost version of the Type 22. I imagine the sequence jumped to Type 31 as they were not designed as ASW ships.https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/british-type-24-25-frigates.7772/
At some point we are going to have to reset the Type’s though aren’t we?
(Though personally I always hated the Type X monicer, Iron Duke, Daring, City Class etc sounds so much better).
I believe the choice of T31 was supposed to invoke and reference the T21’s of the 1970’s which were the last cheap ‘general patrol’ frigates built for the Royal Navy.
I agree the Type X naming tradition is a bit dull! Although the current fleet are occasionally referred to as Daring or Duke class vessels and no doubt the T26 will sometimes be called the City class as well.
Type 27 was suppose to be a low cost alternative to supplement the Type26, more of s corvette than a frigate. Of course this path was not selected at the time when it was decided to invest in only the T26 project.
Which then became too expensive so a low cost alternative was required, hence the Type 31.
Funny old world just going in circles repeating ourselves.
T31 is T27 basically but with a different branding. More sensible in some ways to differentiate ASW from GP.
After Bristol and the cost/failure of the T82 program, I’d bet heavily against any T8X ever appearing again.
Plus T45 would never have been in that series – with Bristol it became basically a ship that was 1st rate in AA 4X, AD 6X (now merged as AAW) and ASW 1/2X. Which as pointed out above is ironic since T81 was specifically intended to be 2nd rate in all! Torpedo tubes, Harpoons (always planned to be fitted as became available from retiring ships and nos have been) plus even TLAM wouldn’t bave acheived that. At no point in the T45 or preceding programs was 1st rate ASW incorporated- namely silencing and towed array.
All present ships have been playing with adding UAVs etc to their uses
But if they want to play with T32 ship designs for that then they could look at the Thales and Stellar Systems TX for inspiration towards a capability. .
And all that whilst keeping with in the usual “general purpose ship” label expected
They will then contribute to an increase in much needed RN ship numbers
and be a force multiplier for future Littoral Operations
Any bigger mother ship expectations please look where 😉 aka LOV
Good news for ship builders if the pen pushers pull their finger out
Any warship is platform to or weapons, sensors and now unmanned systems.
Of course we want them look nice, but is all about affordability and capability.
A RN vessel that is platform for UUVs and drones, will become a target for adversaries vessels and aircraft, so would need to be armed with SAMs, ASMs abd guns.
That ‘Spartan’ by Steller Systems in the main picture looks great. Should have had them instead of T31!
I agree looks great but I understand it never became more than a pretty basic design due to funding and resources. No side mission bays or bridge wings. Wasn’t the mission bay in the stern?
I actually think the T31 design looks quite good, the only problem is the equipment fit.
I actually liked Spartan and was hoping it got picked for T31 or anything else just for being the “wildcard”
And its would have given a boost to a smaller company instead of the big boys..
I think is had and still has potential to be a good ship as its modular and flexible
Perhaps it should be looked at again ;P
A dozen blokes got some good free PR for their little consultancy by showing off their CGI skills.
I see they’ve picked up a piece of RN work to build a scale model of a future USV – good luck to them
http://www.stellersystems.co.uk/news/steller-systems-awarded-contract-to-build-scale-demonstrator-of-unique-unmanned-vessel/
Stellar decided to enter the T31 race but lost to the big boys and they’re continuing to persevere and are in with THALES for this TX design aka WRAITH
Wonder what the Future Commando Force developers think as they are playing with it?
Its got potential for their fast insertions and drones of various requirements
and its still being tested?
And that’s how I prefer to see the future use UAVs, UUV in littoral missions as part of a ESF.
And the deck which can be used by a Merlin or Wildcat
But for their 750t size, a mothership to cater for them would be required, maybe a present or future RN / RFA ship
Hopefully it enters service as it will be a good asset 😛
As for the main topic T32 I’ve already commented in several posts
But with T32 as quoted, not necessarily being based on the T31 then the designer and us armchair admirals can have a play with idea’s
The Spartan design has a fully worked up Stability Model, General Arrangement, Propulsion System, Vulnerability Model and has had a lot of positive attention. The Garage in the back is 24m long and 14m wide with a 5m wide stern ramp. It is compliant with current MOD standards for stability and survivability, far higher than competitor designs and it is designed in the UK. IF my sons went into the Navy, I would want them in this. It can carry a range of vehicles and boats, including our Wraith UXV which we are in the process of testing a prototype for the Royal Marines. At some point that will become declassified and we can tell you more. Rob Skarda – Managing Director of Steller Systems
I do wonder if we’re going to see the return of the helicopter cruiser concept, with the front end of a surface combatant welded onto the aft section of an assault ship. Back in the 20th century it was an inefficient hybrid, but in the future sustaining offboard sensors is likely to be just as important as the sensor package aboard the ship itself.
The Danes already have the Absalon-class frigate/support ships, from which the Iver Huitfeldts and the T31s evolved. Back in the 2000s we had concepts for a T45-based drone and helicopter cruiser.
if you look at a T45 or T26 – it has basically already happened as these are cruiser sized ships and have large open areas at the rear plus as with 26/31, hangars and spaces much karger than just for the assigned helo. But these sizes, in conjunction with the sensors and powerplants (noting still want high 2X kts) preclude going bigger.
I suspect that the post war merger of all surface comabtants into the cruiser category (globally deployable, very situational aware and roled for both capital ship screening and “independent crusing” is bearly complete, and helos (and drones, plus guided weapons) have replaced destroyers and frigates in the classical sense if what they did.
We might be more honest calling then cruisers now!
There’s a fairly notable difference between an escort carrying a single or, rarely, a pair of helicopters, and a helicopter cruiser with a much more substantial permanent air wing.
I’m not quite sure I understand your point regarding sizes. Are you claiming we couldn’t build ships any bigger than current escorts as we wouldn’t have a powerplant to get them up to speed? Unless you’re suggesting we simply stretch an existing design without changing anything else, it’s certainly not difficult to get a ship bigger than 10,000t to 30+ kts. We’ve been doing it since the First World War.
I have to disagree with your last point as well. All escorts may have taken on aspects of traditional cruisers, but they still follow the basic pattern of destroyers and frigates. Destroyers still escort capital ships and destroy smaller threats to them, it’s just changed from torpedo boats to everything from ballistic missiles to FACs. Frigates have rediscovered their routes as the predecessors of cruisers, acting as general dogsbodys for the fleet as well as their more specialist role. Just calling them all cruisers isn’t particularly helpful.
The limit on size is cost as well as practicalities of getting in and out of places. Of course we can build bigger, we have a 70k carrier and there are 500K plus tankers about. But we cant build numbers of that. As even the US has found (7x our populatikn and 10x the wealth), escalation in size comes with a impractical limit on numbers.
Such helicopter ships miss the key issue, just like those with ideas for 100s of VLS, that the cost is the helicopter/missile. Merlin has been a vastly expensive project and remains so in terms of operating a helo. A Merlin today would cost in the region of 20M up front and needs c20 people to operate and maintain it. Vs 250M and 80-100 on a T31 total. Realistically our capital ship has c6 helos assigned to it on a sustainable basis and for decades our capital ships were 1-2 operational CVLs with sub 10 helos – the idea of DGH/FGH moving to this category is asinine. As for the future, UAVs dont need as much soace but as theyve grown in caspbility sonthey have in cost, infra and support demands. Watch the cost of this new medium helo project.
I have an old book that defines a cruiser as the largest ship you could build in numbers. Destroyers and frigates were expendable largely single purpose weapons – essentially as modern UAV/guided weapons are.
Going back further – a 3rd/4th rate was the cruiser and what became DD/FF were the variety of sloops and brigs and smaller.
By any recognition our ships of today are cruisers, your use of frigate I think reflects how that term itself evolved from a frigate “cruising the fleet or a distant station”. In that sense the postwar US Navy in calling its DLGs frigates was closer to the mark than our DD/FF split.
A T45 or T26 is almost exactly equivalent to a County or Town class cruiser in how it is used – both screening capital ships and on independent operations just as cruisers were used for, and ditto to the previous generation of protected/armoured and scout/fleet cruisers. The job that destroyers and sloops did has been taken over by sensors, standoff weapons and embarked aviation. Consider the Harwich flotilla of WW1, light cruisers providing sensor/command and control for torpedo/gun armed destroyers to be set off the leash as needed, and similarly how sloops and cruisers were used around the globe – a Type 26 with a Merlin or 2 Wildcat and/or UAVs is doing exactly the same when it does ops in Kilpion for instance. Throw in the addition of USVs and the “frigate mothership” is even more directly overseeing the expendable assets doing their job, and thats T31/32.
The book “postear naval revolition” is interesting in how it identifies the trend of cruiser and DD merging as early as the 50s. Hence the RN’s proposed “cruiser destroyer” armed with 5” guns, 1st rate radar fit. The postear cruiser was a behemothic 18k design that we couldnt afford – ie that was really a capital ship. We only kept calling things destroyers/frigates because its a cool name and because institutionally that meant it was more likely to be funded and didnt need a 4 ringer CO and associated crewing.
A County class (Sea Slug) absolutely was a cruiser, as was T82/Bristol. T42 a 2nd rate one but T45 returns to the 1st rate fold.
Once we started with T22 and T23, let alone T26 these were ASW optimised cruisers and bore little relation to the Flower/River/Castle class single purpose frigates.
This sounds exciting.
So the suggestions that the MCMV fleet will be replaced by extra frigates over the long term seem accurate.
No, not really. Nothing has been confirmed as of yet. I’d not be too quick getting Excited mate.
Personally I think we should focus initially on the children not the Mother. If we can discover exactly what capabilities are needed of the children and indeed how many, we might then be able to deduce something about the Mother who has to give birth to them!
Well I keep banging on about it and at least we have a quote from a govt. minister now.
If we look at UK govt/RN ambitions for a more global presence and capability, then that mitigates against smaller more specialised platforms like BMTs Venari or the Dutch/Belgian MCMV and more towards using frigate and survey ship platforms for MCM mission module deployment, along with using commercial vessels and shore based deployments in peacetime. We might use STUFT to expand platforms in a conflict, depending on where such platforms are deployed or use frigates/survey ships. This approach is predicated on a significant number of our current MCMV deployments not needing a warship platform.
How does this work in practice? Consider that the RN might have 15x MCM mission modules at ~£60m each based on the recent contract, plus 3x T31 level of frigate at ~£400m each for a similar cost to replacing 13x MCMV; the MCMV cost estimates are based on the 12x Dutch/Belgian vessels plus their MCM modules costing ~€2.2b. We then have the option to spend more to build a more capable platform than a T31, aka T32, with more capable boat handling, sensors and weapons fit for an intermediate class frigate.
That same T32 platform might form the basis for Echo-class replacement. Or we might build 2x dedicated survey vessels. Either way, both are equipped to support MCM mission modules. Echo-class already have a secondary MCM role.
We can then expand from the 5x T32/survey ship MCM platforms plus 15x mission modules as required. The current 5x T31 may also support MCM platforms but we don’t know how capable the boat launching capability is, so the platform as currently planned may be limited in boat weight and/or sea state launch and recovery.
Agreed GHF.
I agree on the move to more useful frigates vs single role specialised ships like MCMVs, however completely disagree on your modular approach.
All the indicications are that this (indeed nearly any) capability just isnt modular, in terms of the specific demands it makes on a host vessel from space & power, through very capable davits and cranes, to the people required to work it all (and in a ships context need to be part of the crew to do all the general duties and form an effective cohesive team).
The US LCS is a mess but how they have given up on that despite greater resources and a design from scratch shows that assigning kit and people to a ship on a permanent basis is the optimim in terms if equipment procurement/integration and the human aspect.
The Dutch-Belgian ships are interesting as they show just how customised a ship has to be to operate USVs etc, but are still the minimum to do that and cant do much more.
I’d see Type 32 as merging one of those with the Type 31 to give a MCM capable ship but also able to properly do GP tasks and defend itself as a light frigate – thus remove the need for escorting it, which we dont have ships to do anyway! Such a ship would become part of the frigate-destroyer force and be used as one, but whereas T45 do AAW training and exercises and a T23/26 does/will do ASW as part of their drumbeat of tasks – this would do MCM.
Interesting. Do you have any references for the indications you cite?
One caveat regarding my perspective. I do not see modules and teams being switched in and out in hours, as was the original intent with the LCS program, and I suspect how many view mission module use. The modules might be capable of being swapped that quickly, if the need arose, but my view is that a module is expected to stay in place for a deployment at least. The goal in my view is to have flexibility for a ship’s role across its life, not flexibility within say a year/deployment in a ship’s life unless in extremis requirements demand it.
I agree that the LCS program is a mess overall, I would hesitate to cite it as a source for proving or disproving anything at this point, except how to build ships without apparently having a clear idea of purpose and role beyond sound bites.
One other platform idea that may be of interest, and that has relevance to the MCM mission as a mothership. I have under other articles argued against large amphibious vessels for the UK in favour of smaller, faster vessels in greater numbers, a vessel half way between the new USMC Light Amphibious Warship concept and the Damen LST 100/120 concepts in size and complexity, again for flexibility of operation and reduction of concentrated risk among other reasons. Such a vessel would have 2x or 4x heavy duty davits and heavy duty crane similar to the Damen vessels. This would be a low cost, commercial build platform that could support different mission modules depending on its role when not used for amphibious ops.
So between an intermediate frigate platform and a low cost amphibious platform we can support MCM with military platforms appropriate to the situation.
must admit that I really do like the stellar systems spartan design.
don’t know why.
In a previous mail I have raised the view of a fleet of 12 x C1(T26), 12 x C2 (T31/32) and 25 x C3 (TBC) capability
the C3 capability is the real game changer in all this as it essentially replaces the rivers, hunts and sundowns with an appropriately armed Corvette style vessel
Taking this further I don’t envisage this asset having manned systems – but assets like Schiebel 200’s etc.
We can keep around the 90 ship mark (inc RFA) and massively improve our capabilities if we are bold and innovative
You’ve just increased the T26 numbers by 50%, T31 by 120% and replaced 11 MCMVs, 2 E class survey ships and 7 Rivers (20 ships) with 25 larger better equipped ships. All on a kind of neutral/standing still fleet size wise basis. Do you think this is really reality?
T32 will replace the MCMVs and “is” C3. The Rivers are young/brand new so not worth considering for replacement, whilst the older B1s are perfect for role and it would be insane to do fish boat jobs in anything more complex or expensive. The E class are full of interesting electronics and are specialists, even if you could put that in a generic hull, we’re not buying the gear or people for more than the existing footprint and so any such equipped hulls would form a subclass anyway and thus offer little benefit other than R&D/logistics of a common baseline (which is not a trivial benefit, but equally not worth pushing for at cost).
Hi Pigeon
T26 would replace T23 ASW and T45 so actually a reduction of 2 which helps us buy 4 additional T31
Its a 25 year build plan – so we won’t scrap anything or build these in a year or 2 so yes we need to think about replacing the whole fleet.
You have however hit the nail on the head, I am keeping numbers the same but improving every single vessel (hopefully with less crew as well) and banking on the scale of each class to drive costs down through commonality of parts/design and keeping a constant tempo that is far more efficient than currently.
Accept your comments on Echo class and I have made provision for specialist ships, as one size does not fit all.
this is part of a larger plan that sees us standardise the whole surface fleet on 6 or so hull types (QEC, T26, T31, Aegir for large vessels and whatever we come up with for T82 and the specialists) and complement with a load of enabling vessels such as combat boat 90’s, Atlas MCM, Ship to Shore connectors, LCVP, Caimen 60 etc.
Most of the vessels will have some form of mission bay in them as standard as unmanned is the future.
T26 needs an upgraded radar in my view and a whole load more Seaceptor and then it can replace T45.
T26 replace T45?
I think that isn’t workable. T45s Sea Vioer fit isnt going to fit into T26, nor is a likely Sea Vioer successor in the same way Sea Dart couldnt go in Counties and Sea Viper couldnt go in T42s. T45 is a very specialist ship focussed on supporting the Sea Viper systems – the electical power for instance.
The rationalisation of hulls for logistics and training makes sense – but misses we need a drumbeat of variety to keep industrial expertise to create them, and from which they are sustained. T4X in the late 2030s is an essential part of that even if it lifts T26 aspects. Look how T31 is being used to avoid the pitfalls of being dependent upon a single hull/supplier.
Look back to the 2000s, trimarans aside, everyone was thinking the future frigate would be T45 based. Of course technology moved on and so T26 is quite different. Exactly the same as the 1990s when people saw T23 hull as the basis of the T42 replacement. We should expect the same thing again for T45(R).
Again the Rivers are new, replacing the fish boats is trivial, basically any steel thing with a small pop gun – there is no need to tie that to some globally deployable corvette and having this “up the average” approach will actually mean we have OTT fish boats and a lack of warfighters.
I think we’ve posted on large auxils before, I don’t favour excess “jack of all trades” because the RN is still large enough that when it wants a capability, it sends something that can do that properly as it needs to scalewise (a fleet tanker or a stores ship or an amphib – but not a tanker-stores-amphib as one hull cant meet the scale requirements and once you build a fleet to send multiple, you might as well have specialised ships where you make efficiencies in kit provision and people (training and numbers) through centralisation vs dispersion. The RN’s issue is that it is dispersed in peacetime, so multifunction ships appear attractive for those times, but it fights concentrated where it needs specialists and multfinction becomes a massive pita (ie you have 4 ships each 1/4 amphib, 1/4 aviation, 1/4 stores and 1/4 fuel – but you now need all the fuel with the carrier, all the aviation and amphib on the beachhead and the stores topping up everthing everywhere all whilst doing runs to the rear to resuply themselves).
I don’t intend for Sea Viper VLS to migrate over
Sea Ceptor is as good or better than the Aster 15 missile, and the Aster 30 or NT can be loaded into the Mk41 silo if need be.
we could certainly place the 32/48 Sea Viper VLS onto a T26 and quad pack 16/24 with SeaCeptor and put Aster 30’s in the other as these are not strike length
VLS is probably not the issue, Radar placement and weight is far more invasive in this upgrade, but as the Australians and Canadians are showing, doable.
A T26 is better than a T45 in every department except Radar already, so its how we use the 48 tactical and 24 strike length. VLS rather than anything else.
problem with large ships, is that too many are tied up or specialist and have limited use – these become easy targets (Bulwark Albion are always mentioned in cuts, Ocean is gone as is Diligence)
We either go FLO FLO with mega modules or ships such as the Karel Doorman where we get scale to offset some of the compromises made in capacity, and then we work them hard.
12 Karel Doormans fitted out properly give the RN/RFA far more than we lose, especially with the right enablers such as ship to shore connectors, LCVP’s, Mine Countermeasures and CB90’s
The whole force needs to change, I believe we can do it but accept there are doubts and other views
Sea Viper is so much more than Aster missiles and a radar, I think you are seriously missing an understanding of what is in a T45 and what it takes to do what is does. For instance, on T26 the berths filled by the ASW personnel would be AAW people on T45. The ops room complex isnt sized to have all the FC positions. T26 isnt big enough to do both either by equipment or people. Once you specialise the hulls you may as well stick with T45s.
The RAN/RCN have different requirements, the RAN has the Hobarts and the Canadians dont need a task force AAW coordinating asset, just something that can shoot at a longer range and fit into a screen.
Note USN ABs struggle to fit all the people and kit, and that to 80/90s standards let alone the aspects of easy access for maintenance etc. They are notably bigger than T26.
There is the reality that T45 is fairly new, they are likely to go to 2040. Why try and replace them now, at cost, using an expensive ASW hull and systems? As I said, by the time the hulls need replacing – the world will have moved on, and we need to expect that and sustain our industry. Likely soon we’ll see a new generation of radars (eg spherical GAN) and missile options (we’ve got Meteor in service) that will suceed Sampson/Aster and will come with new footprints. Trying to shoehorn them into an ASW ship is like trying ti get Sampson and Aster into a T23.
Quad packed Sea Ceptor doesnt actually exist so that comes at a cost as does Aster into Mk41. All of that is additional to current plans.
12 Karel Doorman would be insane. No docks, far too many little landing craft, too little stores (youd have to send 3-4 just with the carrier for stores and fuel alone with all thet vehicle and aviation space sitting empty) and the crew training burden overhead would be impossible. They can accomodate 150 people – those associated with the air element and replentishment. No capacity for troops.
1 Karel Doorman works great for a small Navy which has nothing else, but note even the Dutch have 2 dedicated LPDs and KD was intended to blur limited LPH, limited replen and sealift because they couldnt justify a LPH, AOR and LSD fleet and had nothing big (like a carrier) that needed greater replentishment capacity. We can because as your plan shows – we have c10 hulls to play with.
What we need is clumps of specialism, fuel is needed in vast quantities as any experience of ops afloat or ashore teaches you. Hence why really we should have some support tankers (50k Leaf type) to support a gas turbine carrier and air wing – 4 Tides will have their work cut out supporting that alone.
Stores wise similarly, Fort Is are now too small in capacity – yet dwarf a KD in that respect. Even a Fort II isnt really sufficient bar its all we have and the air wing isnt fully established yet.
Amphib wise we need accomodation, vehicle space and docks for connectors – its great for peacetime to work at coy level but the force needs to operate at Cdo and Bde level also. We’ve done a Bde+ level warfighting Asslt every 2 decades. Hence why the LPDs remain.
Equally the Point class provide sealift but most of the time are on “the garbage run” moving kit from A to B for exercises (eg I had a fast jet sqn’s worth of ground support equipment sent via one last year).
For the RN it pushes you to 4-6 tankers, 2-3 stores ships and 3-6 amphibs plus some utility RoRos. That isn’t a fleet that would benefit from multi-purpose ships.
Finally, the most important bit, people – look at the departments of people on an LPD to operate the docks and landing craft – at the moment we only need to resource 2 of those (well 1 really!) yet with a fleet of ships with docks that manpower requirement goes up as does all the training burden – for a ship that will likely hardly ever use it (because its doing fuel/stores roles) and hence those people are wasted and skills atrophy.
Even if we had 12 KD, the idea it protects from cuts makes no sense – we’d simply have 10, or 8 or 6. 12 to 6 has been done recently… especially as they’d be snapped up by small navies in a way that Albions, Tides and FSS aren’t.
This is why the RN isnt even considering this kind of idea. Critisicse bueorcratic inertia as you like (and I do!) but there are good reasons that plan is a non starter.
Japan, South Korea and Singapore have all come up with Frigate / Mothership concepts recently – this is the Korean design
Mmm, sort of looks like a French FTI Belharra on Steroids.
It says so much that a few days ago people thought type 32 might be a typo ?.
I am imagining a venari 85 looking ship for type 32. But better armed of course.
Having read the comments of the more knowledgeable people here and seeing that the general consensus seems to be the mother ship for drones concept would a smaller or redesigned class based on HMS Albion not be a logical choice for such a type having a flight a larger flight deck to launch airborne drones from and the dock for launching surface and sub-surface drones, other than designing in autonomous systems to reduce staffing levels is there really any reason to redesign the wheel?
Good point – and in many ways these designs are half-way between a logistics vessel and frigate in design. However if they need to make 28-30kts to escort the carrier strike group and hunt nuclear submarines, which is critical if thare are going to be used for ASW. So a 30kt Albion! If they are only used for MCM and supporting littoral operations then they can be in the 18-20kt range like most LPDs. Here is the Singaporean navy’s design for their next generation frigates which combine high speed with a capability to launch autonomous systems. https://g7a6v6x7.rocketcdn.me/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/IMDEX-2019-ST-Engineering-Unveils-Vanguard-130-Multi-Role-Combatant-770×410.jpg
So what is it that stops an Albion class from making those speeds, is it merely engines or is hull shape also a limiting factor?
Hull form is definitely a limiting factor. Where with a frigate the primary driver for hull form may be speed or quiet running for ASW, with a carrier/assault ship it may be that speed is slightly sacrificed in favour of greater stability.
The Stellar Systems Spartan Type 31 proposal had a stern ‘garage’ which looked promising for launching drones.
http://www.stellersystems.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/07/PR63-NA-1-Project-SPARTAN-O-Final-Version-For-Public-Release.pdf
Cant believe its been 3 years since we were all chatting about Spartan!
that by the 2030s we can further increase the total number of frigates and destroyers
Love that statement, so 19 is an increase from which number considering that’s the lowest number the UK has had in generations
However we will loose the dedicated MCMVs – so some of these new ships will also have to host the autonomous MCM capabilies too. Numbers are not quite as fancy in reality. Neverless the expensive MCM systems will be bought separately and could be deployed on vessels of opportunity if needed (commercial logistics vessels) so flexibility is much greater.
I think Fleet numbers will stay around the 90 mark all in (RFA inc.)
We aren’t getting more ships, but I think the mix we get will be totally different backed up by a massive fleet of enabling technology such as the MCM capability, scan eagle, Schiebel 200 and probably even unmanned subs/ loitering large torpedoes.
That would be my proposal
What happens to all your autonomous toys once the mothership is sunk? Unless you have a decent defensive aids suite to protect all these assets it counts as nothing. Is this all being done the cheap for inflated profit margins? I fear it will be just that. Our potential adversaries are already developing countermeasures and weapon systems to counter this. Satellites are vulnerable with little to combat the threat. Its a case of game over surely! No one wins. What we needed to do a while back was to protect our own research and development and information tech as national assets.
Yes they need to have effective self defence weapons. Expect to see direct energy weapons and cyber defence suites in addtional to traditional air and missile defence and anti submarine defensive systems. The Korean concept has capacity for eight small autoomous quadcopters for a variety of tasks (resupply, delivery of small UUVs for ISTAR and ASW swarm attacks, surface surveillance etc.) two larger VSTOL UAVs which operate with an onboard helicopter as force multipliers (loyal wingmen), as well as USVs for MCM, ASW, ISTAR and force protection and provsion for an XLUUV for ASW and ISTAR. They also have a gun, surface to air and surface to surface missiles and and CIWS for self defence.
Which is negated by a T32 frigate mothership having frigate self defences such as Sea Ceptor, 40/57mm guns and all the (actually far more important) situational awareness sensors and links elsewhere, integrated command systems and softkill defences.
Conpared to the manually aimed 30mm gun on an MCMV and little more than the crews eyes.
This is actually a quantum leap forward in the defencability of MCM ops.
Would not a small carrier like HMS Ocean, now sold, do a better job
What about a missile mothership ! We need fire power not youtuber drones ! Turn em into barrage ships that within the hour can take down any middling powers ports and power.
May I ask who you think such a weapon would be used against and why? I can’t think why we would need it.
Iran would be one. Any rogue state is going to think twice about threatening sea lanes if there’s a floating missile factory capable of effectively destroying an entire air force on the ground and navy in port just off their coast
I imagine these vessels wil focus on ASW and MCM, both areas where seeing the target first is a critical survival strategy. Offensive capability is against subs is helicopters and armed drones. As far as the anti-surface mission goes, I’m sure they will have AShMs (although I should point out than NO vessel has ever been damaged by a ship bourne anti-ship missile since the 1970s, although many have been sunk by ground and air launched AshMs).
if you can’t see the target first then all your missiles will do is make a bigger bang when you are hit yourself. Seeing the target first is behind all modern warfare concepts – whether its F-35, Tempest or Astute subs. Automomous capabilites are designed to enable our ships to see further than the bad guys, and thus we can use our weapons before they see us. One missile on target is worth 100 still in their VLS tubes when the ship is hit.
I assume a reasonable volume is necessary due to need to overcome ever better wide and local area defence systems and to avoid the need to sail several thousand KM to a friendly base to re arm after only a couple of engagements.
Can really see the merit in any ship on ship engagement in being able to launch a clutch of relatively lower cost spear 3 to swamp / drain defences followed immediately by the likes of an NSM.
P
It does seem as though UUV technology is the design driver for T32. The RN perceived this general direction with the Type 26 which has a large, flexible and capable mission bay. I think the Rolls Royce handling system crane can load a 20 foot container or launch and recover a 24ft RHIB: but not an ORCA UUV; which I am thinking is something of a game changer. ORCA has long range and endurance and is conceived as a land launched vehicle, but I wonder if the RN is thinking what if they could include them with a carrier task force. If so a completely new frigate design would be needed. c.f. James Fennel post on Singapore Navy concept.
i wonder if the type 31 going to be long the lines of the concepts in the black swan paper.
Seems a sensible idea, recognise a future MCMV will be a mothership to USV/UUV/UAVs and thus much larger to accomodate them all, and combine that with a light frigate armament to get a “MCM Frigate”. Deals with the MCMV slow/global deployment issues and gives a much more flexible platform than one purely MCM focussed (and Hunts/Sandowns were not cheap).
Looking at the new Dutch-Belgian ships for all the step forward in umnanned capability, they are still quite one trick ponies with about the same SA and self defence as what they replaced. So growing one of those to add a T31 style armament gives a much better platform, still just as good at MCM, if not better thanks to more space for people and sensors, whilst being able to do all the GP tasks and protect itself vs the almost undefended MCMVs.
Give we’ve 12? MCMV then replacing them with say 5-10 A120/140 based/sized T32 equipped with drones, 57mm, 40mm(s) and Artisan/Sea Ceptor would be a big leap forward all round.
This also covers that the idea of MCM being a modular bolt on is daft as LCS shows, so you do still need specially customised ships – just now they can be a modified GP frigate with much greater utility.
Would love to see an article about the Chinese Military Build up, in particular the PLAN. Any chance George ?