British carrier to strike targets in Syria and Iraq

You can still do the job but object to the logic of it though surely. I’m sure there was plenty of stuff you had to deal with that you didn’t like, whether it was a new boss who wanted to do it his way (which you’d tried before and it didn’t work) all the way through to having an opinion on whether we should or shouldn’t be in a foreign country. You still do what you’re supposed to while having a moan about it.

Plenty on here who haven’t worn the uniform, they’re entitled to their view on it too.

For myself, I’m long enough in the tooth to see this as a bit of a photo op rather than a meaningful foray. Other views are available of course.

Quite, a bullying aggressive attitude is the antithesis of leadership, and trying to stifle criticism and enforce groupthink amongst others is a terrible corruption of followership.

Both lead directly to tragedy and abuses of the worst kind – indeed, as was delivered so depressingly frequently in Iraq and Afghan and which helped undermine the efforts of so many others.

Clearly some however are happy with that culture, but I dont think they serve the nation well, just themselves. And they’re as far from being “professional” as they can be.

Mate I think we will agree to disagree on this one, but one quick point, groupthink is exactly the opposite to what the military does? How can you enforce groupthink as groupthink is the descision making process taking everyones opinion into consideration, and coming up with a load of shite compromises. Exactly oppositie of what the military does mate. Cheers.

Like I’ve said mate of course it’s a photo op, but I will guarantee that the people in the carrier group will take the opportunity to do their job for real, a

Hi mate, I’m sure all involved will just get on with it.

My concern is more the trumpeting of it all before we even know there would be a reason to drop a bomb on the days that the Carrier Group is passing by. If they use F35’s instead of Typhoons and tell us about it after the fact then its seen as a good ‘work out’ for the F35’s. To announce it beforehand kind of makes it a self fulfilling prophecy that we WILL be dropping bombs by F35’s whether its needed or not.

Personally I’d have rather they kept their yaps shut and told us about it afterwards. They can be as smug as they like then about how ‘ace’ the F35’s are at bombing Jihadists. For me there’s more than a hint of willy waving about this announcement.

Sorry mate finger trouble! As I said they will take this opportunity to do the job, test themselves, test the kit, test procedures etc and crack on. Yes we all had an opinion on whatever tasking or operation we were on, but opinions are like arseholes, we’ve all got one! You suck it up and concentrate on your job, no matter the political reasoning behind it. That’s what professionals do mate, cheers.

Oh for some professionalism, speaking truth to power, not just sucking up to the dogma of the day in order to get promoted – the disease which clearly infects all ranks. Still, only cowards run away and only bullies and the most inadeqaute of “leaders” tell people to get with their program or walk.

As someone said, this is not proportional, and we all know it is purely a PR stunt. It is profoundly unethical to use anyone as target practice for new weapons, a disgustingly aggressive attitude.

And far from having the professional backbone to resist doing this, the RN leadership is absolutely behind it for those basest of reasons.

That will depend on your organization! Maybe in yours, never an issue in mine,as soldering was the reason the lads were there and as a motivated, professional and selective organisation we didn’t seem to suffer from what other more routine organizations did, namely not wanting to soldier…….

The way I see it.
It is not necessary, as RG says the forces assigned are doing the job. Announcing it before the event is indeed a massive PR exercise.

However.

We are in effect at war with these people.
They consider the west as infidels to be killed.
Our military is engaged in operations against them.
So another asset is joining in briefly.

If there were no ongoing operations and we escalated by launching attacks out of nothing against a pacified enemy just to test new weapons I would agree with RG on the sadness of it and the system.

As it is, when I remember the beheadings, the scenes of that Jordanian pilot being burned alive, the destruction of historical sites and priceless antiquities like at Palmyra which actually brought tears to my wife’s eyes at the pointless destruction of such heritage, then I lose no sleep over it…

Agreed mate. But be assured that there is enough targeting info to strike without escalating. Nothing will change for the boys in the ground be they UK, NATO or local, they will just be told of the weapons available on the delivery platform if and when calls are requested. The only difference is the delivery platform. Cheers mate.

Never seen “not wanting to solider” (ok one instance where someone really didnt want to go to the Falklands becasue it conflicted with their personal life and was “too far away” but ended up inAfghan instead…) but seen a lot of healthy criticism of poor decision making and some very unhealthy approaches to command that damaged everyone, the mission above all.

Groupthink is defined as: a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome.

That has nothing to do with “shite compromises”, which is a telling comment about the concept of interacting with the people around you and implies a lack of capability to design a plan for more than whatever suits you. Instantly eqauting well founded criticism in with refusal to soldier is a knee jerk response that tells a lot about a leader, none of it good. Doing that on an internet forum where there is zero chain of command nor task nor indeed anything but a forum designed for the sharing of thoughts and opinions, is asinine.

Groupthink is actually exceptionally common in the military, especially with the desire to fit in both for ethos and progression, not to mention discipline and the threat of it are literally used to enforce conformity. Why do I think this? Well I was taught it at multiple places and have seen it again and again. Perhaps if I just put my head down, thought only of me and didnt care what the outcomes were, I wouldnt have seen it and instead would congratulate myself for my dutiful “professionalism”, which of course would be nothing of the sort. But an actual professional does reflect on how what they do, and what other do, work in an organisation and look to make that better.

Especially as in all our forces, we seem to be losing the campaigns we’re in (are people taking bets for the life expectancy of the Afghan Govt post 9/11? who exactly will be running the areas so many Brits died in?) likewise Iraq and Iran now closely tied up, something we had previously spent a century ensuring wasnt the case. So you’d think a professional would want to think about that and do something about it. Whereas we are ignoring this and I feel the “everything is good” PR we push out seems to have infected our thinking and we’re lying to ourselves in effect.

Groupthink is the exact cause of how abuses such as shooting innocent civillians and maltreatment of prisoners occur not to mention losing lives from crap plans – because nobody has the courage to challenge the behaviours that lead to it and leaders lack the capacity to accept inputs without losing command. As tested right at everyone’s early stages of selection, being able to use your team rather than the “its all me” is a key attribute and part of that is using them to tell you when you’re wrong, and having the culture where people can speak up when they see a problem and get listened to. My organisation has that and its great to be a part of, and a commander in, but it wasted a lot of blood getting to that point (which is not easy to sustain either) – I fully concede other organsiations may be behind and have blood yet to waste before they learn.

I’d also suggest groupthink is there in spades say with Warrior, Ajax and “strike” programs.

Groupthink, as the military constantly does (just how many courses where hoops are jumped and that everybody agrees it is daft – but why doesnt it change?), is the very antithesis of professionalism. Running around like headless chickens dutifully carrying something stupid out is amateur hour not professional behaviour. Even if one feels really ally doing it.

I have to say I’ve read some patronising chuff in my time but that reply was the dogs nads! You are getting yourself muddled up with your groupthink tales to fit your narrative. You seem to support my post with your confused reply. Read your definition and think about it.

Anyway, firstly thank you for your concern for my command and leadership abilities, never an issue during 29 years through the ranks, up to LE, in a combat arm.

Secondly, you are stating the obvious and the very common facet that decent commanders have, ie listen to others ideas and plans, take that and the enemy into consideration, and look at the mission aim and come up with a plan.

Third, on occasion, in a decent and proactive combat arm (you stated previously that you were fixing aircraft and helicopters so I deduce you are not in a combat arm) that the plan, your plan and decisions will be made with no explanation, questions or queries, depending on the circumstance and enemy actions and movements. Lads will do as they are told and tasked as they also understand there are times to question and contribute and times to shut up and get on with it.

Fourth, I have seen a number of fish and chip units who think they are better than they are, individuals thinking they are smarter than they are and when push comes to shove, shit rolls downhill for them and they are found wanting.

Fifth, we have two ears, one mouth, therefore some free advice, best to listen twice as much as you talk……Thank you for your time.

Hah! Well, any comments you take to heart are perhaps worth reflecting on but it wasnt I that started insinuating that having opinions and criticisms was unprofessional. We all know people can get to 4* and still be terrible leaders and indeed, terrible humans. I’m sure anyone who has served will agree that promotion is not a particularly good test of leadership ability, and the promotion chasers are often the the very worst, and that applies to all ranks.

I referred to groupthink and thats what it is. You claimed it doesnt happen in the military. Seems pretty clear it does! In my view the RN have collectively lost sight of why we have military power and the ethics of using it, blinded by their excitement at having the CSG and their burning desire to get PR for it to support their service’s aspirations for resource.

The exact same circumstances that put Vincennes in the Gulf with a desire to prove it was as good as, and indeed better, than anything before it at dealing with all threats and with an enemy similarly dehumanised (regardless of their attributes).

That its a few ISIS people being blown up is irrelevent – if an attack wouldnt have happened bar this PR opportunity as it clearly is, then by definition it is disproportionate and not of military necessity. It may sound like nuance or be perceived some soppy left wing anti military rant, but this disregard for legality and ethics is exactly how we end up killing innocents and prisoners, and how people end up in a very bad place and the forces lose respect and resources (indeed, just how many more scandals is the Parachute Regiment away from disbandment as per its Canadian equivalent?) – which is my concern.

Ref my background you presume too much – take your own advice on that one! Without being flighty or “here today, gone tomorrow”, it is quite easy to do multiple things in a life, indeed, beneficial as staying in on place can very easily entrench attidues and culture.

Personally Ive never seen anyone get upset or indeed start criticising or challenging whilst in contact, but the problem is people who think the leadership style for that should be applied the rest of the time, and I’d suggest, taking that attitude onto an internet forum designed for opinion sharing where there is no decision to make.

But hey, if I feel professionalism is about more than just shutting up and doing my job then I’ll have to see what others think, but so far pretty good feedback over the years from Inf to the rear!

You know, your answers are always so well put, very well informed and very much in the absolute certain way that you know it’s true. Your knowledge about all 3 services is astonishing, given in the first person, more so as all your posts are stated in such a way that it’s almost a statement of fact. Most of us are SMEs on our own organisation, with a broad brush knowledge of other arms and services, but one which isnt given as an absolute cert about others! You mention opinion sharing on a forum, then that is certainly a two way street.

Anyway, it’s very very rare to have come across someone who has spent so much time in all three services, most rare indeed, certainly one who had no clue about that most basic of Army piss take, the cigar smoking, big tashed underwater knife fighter quote…..but….well done for your extensive multi branch service, your skill set moving from one branch of service to another and still maintaining that promotion and command positions, without the normal detrimental impact that many of us know would have had on a career, most astonishing……Fixing “chinnys” one time, advising RN lads on the issues of the type 23s on another and confirming your work with ANA forces on the ground in various contacts, again astonishing but thank you for telling us…….An example to us all.

Well thank you. I’ll take that as a compliment of a life well lived in interesting and challenging ways. I never wanted one thing forever, and grew up as people were saying all that was dead anyway. Life has indeed exposed me to all 3 services and industry, a lot of different experiences and some exceptionally interesting people all over the world. I’ve done my bit along the way, usually not too badly. But its given me what I agree is a very rare set of insights into the goods and bads of how different places function having actually seen it, albeit I’d never claim decades of consistent expertise in one area a but then how long does one need? If only I had the business sense to monetise all this instead of posting on forums eh…

As for opinions, whats the use of them if you dont believe in them and cant put them across well? Ultimately all of this is chaff, in many ways a safe venting space. Fundamentally some things are opinions, eg a dangerous cultural mindset having developed in our forces leadership (I say developed, the same can be seen for most of WW1&2, so it seems to be endemic), but others are actual facts that do have right and wrong.

Dont recall any qoute btw, must have missed that. Isnt all the underwater knife fighting bantar a dig at those claiming “special” status? Awesome dig, really hit home. I’m far from special, but I’ve seen and done what I have, and thought about it. That does seem to place me surprisingly (and depressingly) above many others who have done and seem the same.

We are not all Russia bashers. And I have no issue with knowing we in the West are no angels either. All part of the great game.

I have a soft spot for Russia due to the Great Patriotic War, and what Russia suffered, which I feel is all too easily ignored by the West, in fact probably unknown to most.

I also like the people.

However, that is history, and your military and intelligence community are our potential adversaries again, sadly. And Salisbury, Putin, and eliminations of every political rival are very naughty, Ulya!

Stay safe. 👍

“I have a soft spot for Russia due to the Great Patriotic War, and what Russia suffered, which I feel is all too easily ignored by the West, in fact probably unknown to most.”; Same here, but its for the Russian people not their master!

Well Salisbury is little bit more than naughty behaviour DM and could of been a lot worst ,getting into the water supply for one,and it represents a dangerous and desperate regime
and declining ,yes we are no angels but Putin’s mob take it to the next level
and at the end of the day western
People votes count in there countries ,that is not the case in Putin’s mafia state

I know Dave. And I agree. But I get on well with Ulya and will leave the Russia bashing, for right or wrong, to you.
I enjoy your bouts!

She, or he, as some think she is a he, loves her country too and will defend its, and its leaders actions. For right or wrong.

On Salisbury I’m with you. On other events concerning Russia over the last 50 years they have a viewpoint too. There are always two sides to a narrative.

Fair points DM.

I will reply to you Daniele but it is also for the others that commented
First of “he”? Some here have bothered to question my sex? I must of missed that, it makes me smile and I have no way of proving and no desire to bother, believe as you wish.
Second, yes I love my country, it’s history and people, there are many things I disagree with that my government has done, the latest being the constitutional changes, or at least the way it was done, you can also add corruption and Putin was very slow to invest in Russian economy, sanctions have been fantastic for changing that. Ukraine, I support Russia involvment there.
Third, Syria, you all miss the point of Russian involvment, it was never just about IS, a big part was bringing back stability and right or wrong Assad was the best option, so that meant going after all terrorist groups that opposed him, yes things could have been done better, and many lessons learned, but I find western criticism of “calatoral damage” hypocritical. Increased Russian influence in the ME and being able to kill large numbers of radical Russian Muslims that joined these groups are added bonus, and I am Muslim btw.
Forth, Salisbury, you have evidence, then use it, I don’t care about excuses on why your government has never pushed this case, use your evidence and make a legal case. Almost every day there are accusation against Russia, hacking, election interference, whatever, but never any evidence or legal case so my question has to be, what do you want Russian people to believe? You want us to believe any of your stories then show us evidence, you want us to ignore you, carry on as you do now. If your government can prove guilt then I will happily come here and apologise to you all for dick move by my government.
Forgive me if this comes across as bad manners Daniele, it is not my intention

I wondered when your frustration would show! Consistently polite. Nice to know a bit more about you, Ulya. Interesting background.

No worries Ulya. And I know it was not aimed at me in any case.

I think with using evidence to prove it it probably comes down to sources and methods that would be exposed when presenting evidence. This happens regularly in anti terrorist operations in the UK when our Security Service ( more commonly known as MI5 ) is put in a bit of a corner when they know of an individuals guilt following extensive operations, but must now prove in court, and doing so exposes the intelligence capability that collected that data to those it is aimed at. Obviously, Russian intelligence services have been opponents for decades, they will not do that.

So I think it is a situation where – we know who did it, we have proof, we will not show our hand. We then make political noises that we know, just like now with the carrier being used to bomb being broadcast in advance.
Russia will not ever hand over the suspects anyway. For balance, the USA will not hand over Sacoolas either.

The murder of Gareth Williams is another. It stinks, and has been whitewashed. Either to protect incompetence or ongoing operations that link to it.

All part of the great game.

Agree with Gavin.

Regards.

Hello Daniele, first I am sorry, Gavin is correct I let frustration come in my words, I should of been more careful, thank you for not taking it personally. Second, thank you for your explanation but it does not change my view or answer my question for what I am meant to believe, so from the point of view of 2 people from opposite sides it does little to better understanding

From what I have seen inside Russia I think your views reflect those of many ordinary Russians when seeing this stuff about Western sanctions on TV.

And for us in the west we see things from another viewpoint, our territory was desecrated and people died.

It leaves everything in a stalemate. Neither side will back down. But backchannels are always needed to calm things or in this case in an open forum exchanges of views.

Glad we can always speak in a friendly manner, unlike some….you as people do have friends in the west and I still intend to visit Mamayev Kurgan someday!

Ulya sort of brushed over the fact that Russia carpet bombed Aleppo to dust also the use of cluster bombs,as Airborne mentioned civilians are not factored into when Russia use airstrikes .As for Salisbury your excuse
is the same as Putin’s pretty feeble and for one thing if the 2 accused have nothing to hide than come over to the UK where we have real fair justice system independent to our leader,(not like russia) rather then them go on RT news
Reading out Wikipedia page on
Salisbury cathedral lol ,plead ignorance Ulya but at the end of the day normal Russian people pay the price like having to deal with very high inflated food prices due to sanctions ,so you may do some good business but you are not the majority,a bit of projecting again ulya lol.

Dave,
You mention Aleppo, yes mistakes were made. What I find hypocritical is the west has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent in Iraq and Afghanistan, but you smile talk of peace and democracy while doing it, so that makes it ok yes? Peace bombs? I admit Russians are more brutal, no smile, no fake words, we just kill and keep killing until the job is done, maybe if we destroyed Aleppo over 20 years instead of a few weeks while talking of peace that might of made you feel better?.
Sanctions have certainly hurt the normal Russian, but low oil price hurt more because the government concentration on oil and gas, sanctions forced the government to invest in local industry, you only need to look at the increase in our farming and technology areas, Russia is becoming more self reliant and moving away from the west and trade in US dollars, you ask most Russians, it is a price we will happily pay. To give balance, we still do have many issues, poverty is still to high, wages are still too low for many but they are improving even if only slow, but better to pay a Russian to work than import from Europe and paying a French or German and our government debt is low and our gold/currency reserves are good, no European country can claim that.
Salisbury, we have been over this many times, but to answer your question about why the 2 men don’t come to the UK to prove innocence I will ask questions, why should they? would the UK send people to Russia if asked if we only make accusation but provide nothing to prove our case, why did the UK police never come to Russia to interview them when it was offered? I look forward to your excuses

Lol right well the two accused have already been identified as GRU agents firstly so I ask you this, do you not think it’s just a tad suspicious that two GR U agents went sight seeing on short holiday to Salisbury(a real Spot for Russian tourist mind lol) they are seen on Cctv 5 mins walk away from the skirpals house in which there house and them seem to be contaminated by a chemical weapon the next day and only manufactured in enough deadly amounts in Russia,not just a little suspicious???? Now that’s just the evidence in the public domain, so you and putin saying show us the evidence really just makes yous sound senile so for Russia to use GR U agents ,that’s got to be authorized by the state ,so there is no point sending some UK cops over to Russia to tell them what they already know, and it will be lie deny and considering all of Russia state officials and courts are controlled by one man Putin who signed this act off ,there’s not much point as I said to have a joint investigation 😁
As for Syria you just proved my point,and I’m pretty sure Russia killed thousands more when they invaded Afghan bear in mind NATO where fighting the Taliban who invaded Afghan ,Russia where fighting the Afghan people and come out far worst than Nato, Iraq is pretty hard to defend it was a stragic mistake that caused all sorts of riffs in the country which Iran exploited and so did assad.

Have I got you stumped ulya lol?

Stumped? Interesting word.
We go around in circles every time Dave.
To you Russia is guilty until proven innocent, for me I want evidence your government will never provide.
To be very blunt, I read comments, I smile and move on with my day

Well you seem stumped ulya you could not answer my question which was simple, yes or no to the obvious evidence in the public domain against the GR U agents , it’s not running round in circles ulya it’s you refusing to take on my very good points on the events salibury, grab that shovel and bury your head in the sand some more lol.

You mean not admitting your leaders recent nasty behaviours ?maybe pointless to you.

Not sure their carreir did anthying useful, more of a photo op TBH, like ours. Its the ongoing support to Assad and the Russian targeting of just about anyone who is classed as opposition to the Assad regime is the issue. And a litle more targeting information and more use of guided munitons would be a bonus! Then lets not even mention the Wagner group ffs! The Russians have an agenda, like the west fo obviously, but its just that the Russians dont care how many innocents get killed while trying to achive that aim. They have a nice little toe hold in the Med now and they wont give that up.

I remember when I got to Bagram and chatted with a couple of Rangers. They were talking about hitching a ride up to a plateau to do some snowboarding. They were adamant that the Taliban never went there or up that high. As they said the snow was totally untouched. Sadly never heard if they actually managed the trip.

I have many rules. One is never mess with mountain tribes/people. Hard as nails. Reckon the Taliban know that too

Your point is interesting, maybe increased Chinese influence in both diplomatic/financial and military aid globally, might be one answer in taming Muslim extremism? However, China will want to achieve greater oceanic dominance in order to manage the shipment of much-needed minerals. Exclusive portage is another area of concern and a hindrance to free shipping in the future?

On all political fronts, from social through superpower, this century seems well set to deliver another of Our periodic tectonic shifts, Maurice.

Sorry, missed some of your remark about mineral shipments. Though sea routes are undoubtedly prime, I’d had in mind the border between Aghanistan and China when penned. Not extensive, granted, but there, of course.

Chinese seem to have a penchant for developing high passes & border outposts, as we (well, India) know. That, and their B&R initiatives seemed to make ‘Gan as likely a candidate as any, all else being equal.

Regards

Sorry my comment was OT – a bit anyway.

I agree it is a live fire exercise IRL.

I would presume we could run intel aircraft out of Cyprus with AAR or use American assets.

I wouldn’t be too surprised if the ELINT wasn’t being picked up by fixed assets dropped in place that encrypt and send the data back either over local broadband or cellular. As it is passive it would virtually impossible to detect particularly if you made the data stream look like CCTV….

“by fixed assets dropped in place that encrypt and send the data back either over local broadband or cellular.”

Not to sure about that, it would mean having your own crypto sat where it could be found. Might not be of much use to ISIS but they could maybe swap it for lots of AK47’s.

Just my take on it, no inside knowledge.

No need… One of the T45s if fitted out with enough elint gear to listen to little green men on Mars and translate the language they are speaking . Failing that any take goes straight back to GCHQ over the SATCOM for analysis.

As I am very sure you know radio sensitivity is inverse cube of distance.

So the closer you are the more detail you hear of very faint signals and the more breakthrough you pick up of the behind the scenes bits that nobody is meant to hear.

From that you can deduce the system architecture and physical layouts from which bit is cross talking to which other bits.

One of my previous drafts was a sigint /elint equipped T 22.
The stuff you could pick up and analyse across the spectrum was unbelievable and that was 1980/90 tech.
Digital mobile phones cannot be listened into? Bollocks. Look how big a mobile is and then look at how big the gear is on an elint equipped asset. When a CT tells you about the bootycall you gave your missus you know nothing is secure.

Defo a mobile signal is easy to pick up with ELINT level gear. And the encryption, such as it is, won’t defeat anyone owning a few brain cells.

All I’m saying is the closer you are the better S/N you have and the better the S/N you have over atmospheric noise etc the better you are able to get obscure details out of it.

You can deduce, with the right kit, pretty much what is in the next rack along. Even if it isn’t connected just by the RF leakages.

There can be other units that are harder to see than a T45 doing the same thing. Allegedly.  😉 

All you are going to use is commercial masking (video embedding) and commercial crypto.

The rest is just a commercial wide band Antenna and receiver then onto a Linux box doing the software bit. You can add some software driven analogue butterworth filters to taste.

The CCTV fees would be something that made sense locally like a petrol station or shop that was being rebroadcast.

This is really one up from ‘the rock in the park’.

All speculation on my part but all very easy to do with bits you can easily buy. And very hard to detect.

Fair enough SB, I was thinking military kit, hadn’t considered off the shelf.

I wanted to mention real concerns over Sri Lanka; I feel it is a huge mistake ti leave this strategically placed Island alone given how China are buying it lock stock and barrel.

Its ability to interdict the Indian Ocean, Gulf traffic and bottle up the SCS make it vital that we invest in dedence engagement and least we cod do is make a port visit – there is much residual affection for things British that is might make quite a Statement on the populace although the doubt the current kleptocratic brothers in charge at the moment would change course on selling off Lanka to the Chinese, but, it might make people think bad to better times.

Rant over

Why is that a rant?

I’d count that as a pretty factual observation TBH.

Tappatalk.. I wish I could edit.

Yes I meant to include that above, I literally read an Indian response to what’s happening there and they are deeply concerned and being very verbal about how they will react should China start operating out of a base there. Serious potential hotspot developing here.

Well, I just read that even the opposition leader believes in strong ChiCom leadership… I really am shocked, I had thought he was a cause for good.

Should Lanka go Chinese, the SLOCs will be in serious distress at times of crisis – ask Mountbatten.

We have fixed assets already in the region. There are at least 4 sites in Cyprus operated by Britain with intelligence gathering infrastructure.

Other remote sensors elsewhere are reputed to be able to send back “take” to at least 3 UK sites, passively like SB suggests, and if people must be on the ground then surely we have that capability too, such with 18 SR.

We also have access to “AIRHANDLER” with Reaper though unsure if that is relevant here as don’t think that is ELINT.

Then of course SHAMAN.

That is not even counting other 5 Eyes assets.

Have a huge like.

I am more concerned with their anti ship missiles and mini subs, the current Iranian surface fleet is no match for anything. They are currently working on a 6000 ton destroyer that will carry the Khalij Fars missile.

This is a country that has twice announced new stealth aircraft on public tv only for them to turn out to be wooden mockups, and released footage of the aircraft ‘flying’ which were toy remote controlled planes.

Most people with any sort of subject matter knowledge have very little concern about the Iranian military capabilites. They are full of chuff and have trouble keeping the crap they already have relevent.

Try to stay on topic. Ad hominem responses add no value to this discussion and are uncalled for..

Wasn’t that around the time their air defences panicked and downed the airliner too?

Yes, was a few hours later when they were expecting a retaliation and so were on edge. The AA battery was right underneath an airports take-off corridor, when the airplane appears on the radar screen they panicked and thought american bomber!

Sums up the case for the prosecution nicely.

A very valid point regarding distinctions, the last thing we need to be doing is generating or reinforcing perceptions of modern gun boat diplomacy.

Yep I think that was my point, thanks for putting it so succinctly!

IT was said by RN she could run rings round other vessels of her type at the time ,but your right not a lot said about what she got up to.

I think we need an increase in spend to just cover the basics – for too long I’ve heard that increased capability means we can subsist on fewer numbers, that is a fallacy that it will take time to recover from.

👍

I agree, at the end of the day nato membership for a nation already in a shooting war with Russia will very likely lead to article 5 being enacted At some point . At that point 4 of the worlds nuclear powers will be in a shooting war and there would be a fair to middling chance a good chunk of our population would end up dead and our nation dust.

I don’t think it’s right what Russia is doing in Ukraine, but the Russian geopolitical gestalt has revolved around the near abroad for so long and their national trauma over the threat from the west is so deep ( untold millions dead and 4 invasions in the 19th and 20th C). So we need to recognise going head to head over Ukraine is very high risk indeed.