HMS Queen Elizabeth’s F-35 jets are going into action against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.
The Ministry of Defence said in a release:
“The renowned 617 Squadron RAF (‘The Dambusters’) will operate the jets to provide tangible and impactful support to counter-Daesh operations in Iraq and Syria.”
Minister for the Armed Forces, James Heappey MP said:
“The F-35B Lightning jets will pack a potent punch against Daesh and help prevent them from regaining a foothold in Iraq. This is a prime example of the UK Armed Forces stepping forward with our allies to confront persistent threats around the world. It is Global Britain in action.”
1/ The UK Carrier Strike Group is joining the fight against Daesh. What does this mean? #CSG21 #DefeatDaesh
A few thoughts… pic.twitter.com/I09c3xNJlQ
— Rear Admiral Steve Moorhouse (@smrmoorhouse) June 18, 2021
Commodore Steve Moorhouse Royal Navy, Commander UK Carrier Strike Group, tweeted:
“The UK Carrier Strike Group is joining the fight against Daesh. What does this mean? For CSG21 it marks a change of emphasis. To date, we’ve delivered diplomatic influence through exercises & engagements – now we deliver the hard punch of maritime based air power.
For operation SHADER, we bring the fifth generation capabilities of the F35B, including outstanding situational awareness to support the contribution of the Royal Air Force over the past 7 years.
But it also demonstrates the wider utility of maritime based air power. We offer military and political choice, and we are ready to deliver fifth generation combat power into any mission, in any theatre, at a time of our choosing.”
What is the UK Carrier Strike Group doing?
HMS Queen Elizabeth is the deployed flag ship for Carrier Strike Group 21 (CSG21), a deployment that will see the ship and her escorts sail to the Asia-Pacific and back.
CSG21 will see the ship along with the Strike Group work with over 40 countries from around the world. The Strike Group will operate and exercise with other countries Navies and Air Forces during the 7 month deployment.
The Carrier Strike Group includes ships from the United States Navy, the Dutch Navy, and Marines from the US Marine Corps. As well as British frigates, destroyers, a submarine, two RFA supply ships and air assets from 617 Sqn, 820 NAS, 815 NAS and 845 NAS.
This is the largest deployment of fifth generation fighter jets at sea in history.
“The renowned 617 Squadron RAF (‘The Dambusters’) will operate the jets to provide tangible and impactful support to counter-Daesh operations in Iraq and Syria.”
Sounds like we’re determined to bomb the crap out of ‘something’ anyway. Just hope ISIS are willing to play ball and get up to their shady shenanigans as the carrier is passing by.
Yes, it would be very annoying if the enemy didnt do something bad at a suitable time for this PR event to occur.
But no worry, there’s a lot of desert and they can hust drop stuff in that and the objective will be acheived.
I suppose, being positive about it, the F35’s can certainly gather valuable intelligence regarding Russian operations in Syria and perhaps similar signals intel from Iran on the way through.
The ‘real’ target for the show of force is Iran, it’s a ‘ look what we can park in your backyard’ if we want to moment…..
I’m sure the Russians will be really looking forward to the great opportunity of gathering as much data on F35 operations too!
For that reason, I bet the F35’s still operate with the radar signature boosters fitted…..
F35 will probably cover Typhoon tasking for a few day’s. They will not drop expensive smart weapons for a PR stunt. Or will be used in a ISTAR role.
Typhoons will likely be escorting/covering them.
Lets just hope we dont emulate the Russians completely by crashing some.
Still, it’ll generate pictures and a headline or two so that’s definitely worth it.
I wonder will they involve the Marines in the aerial attacks or will it just be RAF/FAA.
U.S. Marines never sit on the sidelines. They are part of the CV air group and will be treated as so.
Its all part of the progressive capability build up, and if a few ISIS cockroaches get killed in the process its a win win situation. Cant imagaine anyone with any sort of knowledge and experience can object to this.
Cant imagine why anyone with knowledge and experience is happy to see people and kit used at risk purely for political purposes where there is little to no military added value. Given the actual maturity of this “system”, it’s a sick joke showing a toxic mix of politicisation and over aggressiveness in the services “leadership”. Generally that never ends well, and after two strategic defeats in Iraq and Afghan, that we persist with this culture is quite depressing.
All wars are politics! If it’s not to peoples liking hand in the uniform and try another career. Professionals see it for what it is, of course, but take out of it, be it training or operational experience, whatever value thy can.
You can still do the job but object to the logic of it though surely. I’m sure there was plenty of stuff you had to deal with that you didn’t like, whether it was a new boss who wanted to do it his way (which you’d tried before and it didn’t work) all the way through to having an opinion on whether we should or shouldn’t be in a foreign country. You still do what you’re supposed to while having a moan about it. Plenty on here who haven’t worn the uniform, they’re entitled to their view on it too.… Read more »
Quite, a bullying aggressive attitude is the antithesis of leadership, and trying to stifle criticism and enforce groupthink amongst others is a terrible corruption of followership.
Both lead directly to tragedy and abuses of the worst kind – indeed, as was delivered so depressingly frequently in Iraq and Afghan and which helped undermine the efforts of so many others.
Clearly some however are happy with that culture, but I dont think they serve the nation well, just themselves. And they’re as far from being “professional” as they can be.
Mate I think we will agree to disagree on this one, but one quick point, groupthink is exactly the opposite to what the military does? How can you enforce groupthink as groupthink is the descision making process taking everyones opinion into consideration, and coming up with a load of shite compromises. Exactly oppositie of what the military does mate. Cheers.
Like I’ve said mate of course it’s a photo op, but I will guarantee that the people in the carrier group will take the opportunity to do their job for real, a
Hi mate, I’m sure all involved will just get on with it. My concern is more the trumpeting of it all before we even know there would be a reason to drop a bomb on the days that the Carrier Group is passing by. If they use F35’s instead of Typhoons and tell us about it after the fact then its seen as a good ‘work out’ for the F35’s. To announce it beforehand kind of makes it a self fulfilling prophecy that we WILL be dropping bombs by F35’s whether its needed or not. Personally I’d have rather they… Read more »
Sorry mate finger trouble! As I said they will take this opportunity to do the job, test themselves, test the kit, test procedures etc and crack on. Yes we all had an opinion on whatever tasking or operation we were on, but opinions are like arseholes, we’ve all got one! You suck it up and concentrate on your job, no matter the political reasoning behind it. That’s what professionals do mate, cheers.
Oh for some professionalism, speaking truth to power, not just sucking up to the dogma of the day in order to get promoted – the disease which clearly infects all ranks. Still, only cowards run away and only bullies and the most inadeqaute of “leaders” tell people to get with their program or walk. As someone said, this is not proportional, and we all know it is purely a PR stunt. It is profoundly unethical to use anyone as target practice for new weapons, a disgustingly aggressive attitude. And far from having the professional backbone to resist doing this, the… Read more »
That will depend on your organization! Maybe in yours, never an issue in mine,as soldering was the reason the lads were there and as a motivated, professional and selective organisation we didn’t seem to suffer from what other more routine organizations did, namely not wanting to soldier…….
The way I see it. It is not necessary, as RG says the forces assigned are doing the job. Announcing it before the event is indeed a massive PR exercise. However. We are in effect at war with these people. They consider the west as infidels to be killed. Our military is engaged in operations against them. So another asset is joining in briefly. If there were no ongoing operations and we escalated by launching attacks out of nothing against a pacified enemy just to test new weapons I would agree with RG on the sadness of it and the… Read more »
Agreed mate. But be assured that there is enough targeting info to strike without escalating. Nothing will change for the boys in the ground be they UK, NATO or local, they will just be told of the weapons available on the delivery platform if and when calls are requested. The only difference is the delivery platform. Cheers mate.
Never seen “not wanting to solider” (ok one instance where someone really didnt want to go to the Falklands becasue it conflicted with their personal life and was “too far away” but ended up inAfghan instead…) but seen a lot of healthy criticism of poor decision making and some very unhealthy approaches to command that damaged everyone, the mission above all. Groupthink is defined as: a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. That has nothing to do with… Read more »
I have to say I’ve read some patronising chuff in my time but that reply was the dogs nads! You are getting yourself muddled up with your groupthink tales to fit your narrative. You seem to support my post with your confused reply. Read your definition and think about it. Anyway, firstly thank you for your concern for my command and leadership abilities, never an issue during 29 years through the ranks, up to LE, in a combat arm. Secondly, you are stating the obvious and the very common facet that decent commanders have, ie listen to others ideas and… Read more »
Hah! Well, any comments you take to heart are perhaps worth reflecting on but it wasnt I that started insinuating that having opinions and criticisms was unprofessional. We all know people can get to 4* and still be terrible leaders and indeed, terrible humans. I’m sure anyone who has served will agree that promotion is not a particularly good test of leadership ability, and the promotion chasers are often the the very worst, and that applies to all ranks. I referred to groupthink and thats what it is. You claimed it doesnt happen in the military. Seems pretty clear it… Read more »
You know, your answers are always so well put, very well informed and very much in the absolute certain way that you know it’s true. Your knowledge about all 3 services is astonishing, given in the first person, more so as all your posts are stated in such a way that it’s almost a statement of fact. Most of us are SMEs on our own organisation, with a broad brush knowledge of other arms and services, but one which isnt given as an absolute cert about others! You mention opinion sharing on a forum, then that is certainly a two… Read more »
Well thank you. I’ll take that as a compliment of a life well lived in interesting and challenging ways. I never wanted one thing forever, and grew up as people were saying all that was dead anyway. Life has indeed exposed me to all 3 services and industry, a lot of different experiences and some exceptionally interesting people all over the world. I’ve done my bit along the way, usually not too badly. But its given me what I agree is a very rare set of insights into the goods and bads of how different places function having actually seen… Read more »
This will test the ships capability to prepare arm and launch aircraft in a live situations
And also tax the photogs to their max to get lots of pictures of it all to release to the press.
Obviously cant get photos of what military effect they acheive, but we all know that isnt actually relevant anyway. Plus the advantage of the F35 is no-one can see they’ve come back with everything they took! Well, bar the armourers but they’re discrete I’m sure…
Fact is if it is deemed necessary for Typhoons from Cyprus to do raids I really can’t see why it wouldn’t make sense to use F35s to do some of those instead to train and prove their ability to carry out such missions, just common sense whatever ‘PR’ might be attached as a bye product. Isis is still actually active of course despite the press understandably more interested in other issues, and suppressive operations are probably one of the things keeping a relative lid on their ability to re-establishing and expanding at least some semblance of influence in regions of… Read more »
Quite, just to prove their ability. Despite already being able to do it at extant cost and effort.
And they’ll definitely not be coming back with ordnance, that might suggest all this PR and cost wasnt worth it. Better to put a £500k hole in the desert.
Of course its PR, but its also good for crew moral, test a few TTPs, pick up some emissions and Int from the area, maybe a bit of Russion or Iranian emissions, drop a few paveways and if a few ISIS scum bags get minced in the process, its as I have mentioned before, a win-win situation all round. Not sure I see a problem doing this, even if its only for a few days.
Smack um as we go is rather amusing. The old ‘Gunboat Diplomacy’ ain’t dead, that’s for sure. Just how other nations view this carrier task group would be interesting to know? An interesting point, what would NATO think if China were to launch a similar task group, including a few hostile operations in the mix? I agree with the RN’s operation, don’t get me wrong, but proportion may be worth consideration? The likelihood of a Chinese naval task group of considerable size in the Atlantic can not be ruled out in the coming years, and the West’s reaction will be… Read more »
Quite, given the scorn heaped on Russia for sending its carrier to do Syria ops, here we are doung the same. It’s hypocritical and shamelessly transprent about showing off.
Hell its not like the Typhoon Det at Aki is going home and needs cover, its still there continuing as usual, indeed more so to operate with the CSG.
Just been reading about Vincennes in the Gulf, the same underlying sense of an unnessecarily aggressive desire to showcase a new capability.
Nothing like western hypocrisy when it comes to Russia.
Having said that, gives the chance to use the new capability and provides valuable training to the crews.
I don’t wish to get into pointless argument with anyone but as always your comments make me smile Daniele
We are not all Russia bashers. And I have no issue with knowing we in the West are no angels either. All part of the great game.
I have a soft spot for Russia due to the Great Patriotic War, and what Russia suffered, which I feel is all too easily ignored by the West, in fact probably unknown to most.
I also like the people.
However, that is history, and your military and intelligence community are our potential adversaries again, sadly. And Salisbury, Putin, and eliminations of every political rival are very naughty, Ulya!
Stay safe. 👍
“I have a soft spot for Russia due to the Great Patriotic War, and what Russia suffered, which I feel is all too easily ignored by the West, in fact probably unknown to most.”; Same here, but its for the Russian people not their master!
Well Salisbury is little bit more than naughty behaviour DM and could of been a lot worst ,getting into the water supply for one,and it represents a dangerous and desperate regime
and declining ,yes we are no angels but Putin’s mob take it to the next level
and at the end of the day western
People votes count in there countries ,that is not the case in Putin’s mafia state
I know Dave. And I agree. But I get on well with Ulya and will leave the Russia bashing, for right or wrong, to you.
I enjoy your bouts!
She, or he, as some think she is a he, loves her country too and will defend its, and its leaders actions. For right or wrong.
On Salisbury I’m with you. On other events concerning Russia over the last 50 years they have a viewpoint too. There are always two sides to a narrative.
Fair points DM.
I will reply to you Daniele but it is also for the others that commented First of “he”? Some here have bothered to question my sex? I must of missed that, it makes me smile and I have no way of proving and no desire to bother, believe as you wish. Second, yes I love my country, it’s history and people, there are many things I disagree with that my government has done, the latest being the constitutional changes, or at least the way it was done, you can also add corruption and Putin was very slow to invest in… Read more »
I wondered when your frustration would show! Consistently polite. Nice to know a bit more about you, Ulya. Interesting background.
No worries Ulya. And I know it was not aimed at me in any case. I think with using evidence to prove it it probably comes down to sources and methods that would be exposed when presenting evidence. This happens regularly in anti terrorist operations in the UK when our Security Service ( more commonly known as MI5 ) is put in a bit of a corner when they know of an individuals guilt following extensive operations, but must now prove in court, and doing so exposes the intelligence capability that collected that data to those it is aimed at.… Read more »
Hello Daniele, first I am sorry, Gavin is correct I let frustration come in my words, I should of been more careful, thank you for not taking it personally. Second, thank you for your explanation but it does not change my view or answer my question for what I am meant to believe, so from the point of view of 2 people from opposite sides it does little to better understanding
From what I have seen inside Russia I think your views reflect those of many ordinary Russians when seeing this stuff about Western sanctions on TV. And for us in the west we see things from another viewpoint, our territory was desecrated and people died. It leaves everything in a stalemate. Neither side will back down. But backchannels are always needed to calm things or in this case in an open forum exchanges of views. Glad we can always speak in a friendly manner, unlike some….you as people do have friends in the west and I still intend to visit… Read more »
Ulya sort of brushed over the fact that Russia carpet bombed Aleppo to dust also the use of cluster bombs,as Airborne mentioned civilians are not factored into when Russia use airstrikes .As for Salisbury your excuse is the same as Putin’s pretty feeble and for one thing if the 2 accused have nothing to hide than come over to the UK where we have real fair justice system independent to our leader,(not like russia) rather then them go on RT news Reading out Wikipedia page on Salisbury cathedral lol ,plead ignorance Ulya but at the end of the day normal… Read more »
Dave, You mention Aleppo, yes mistakes were made. What I find hypocritical is the west has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent in Iraq and Afghanistan, but you smile talk of peace and democracy while doing it, so that makes it ok yes? Peace bombs? I admit Russians are more brutal, no smile, no fake words, we just kill and keep killing until the job is done, maybe if we destroyed Aleppo over 20 years instead of a few weeks while talking of peace that might of made you feel better?. Sanctions have certainly hurt the normal Russian, but low… Read more »
Lol right well the two accused have already been identified as GRU agents firstly so I ask you this, do you not think it’s just a tad suspicious that two GR U agents went sight seeing on short holiday to Salisbury(a real Spot for Russian tourist mind lol) they are seen on Cctv 5 mins walk away from the skirpals house in which there house and them seem to be contaminated by a chemical weapon the next day and only manufactured in enough deadly amounts in Russia,not just a little suspicious???? Now that’s just the evidence in the public domain,… Read more »
Have I got you stumped ulya lol?
Stumped? Interesting word.
We go around in circles every time Dave.
To you Russia is guilty until proven innocent, for me I want evidence your government will never provide.
To be very blunt, I read comments, I smile and move on with my day
Well you seem stumped ulya you could not answer my question which was simple, yes or no to the obvious evidence in the public domain against the GR U agents , it’s not running round in circles ulya it’s you refusing to take on my very good points on the events salibury, grab that shovel and bury your head in the sand some more lol.
You mean not admitting your leaders recent nasty behaviours ?maybe pointless to you.
I don’t see this is strictly comparing Apples with Apples here. If the Russians had been using their carrier to attack Isis there would have been no real criticism as there isn’t, as and when their land based aircraft do so. If they were used for other civilian opposition targets then it seems criticism was valid as it is as and when our aircraft attack targets where civilians are killed and they of course in turn routinely criticise our strikes if they are deemed to be against forces or interests they support in particular those of, or supporting the Syrian… Read more »
Not sure their carreir did anthying useful, more of a photo op TBH, like ours. Its the ongoing support to Assad and the Russian targeting of just about anyone who is classed as opposition to the Assad regime is the issue. And a litle more targeting information and more use of guided munitons would be a bonus! Then lets not even mention the Wagner group ffs! The Russians have an agenda, like the west fo obviously, but its just that the Russians dont care how many innocents get killed while trying to achive that aim. They have a nice little… Read more »
Shirley not ! When ‘we’ (the self appointed good guys) do it its for the noblest of reasons but when ‘they’ do it, they’re up to no good the schweinhunds !
China will demonstrate its global reach and with it, a heightened threat. NATO knows the fastest growing military threat is from the Far East and needs to encourage more carrier task groups from other nations, than the UK. Domination of the World’s oceans is, possibly, the greatest threat to global trade routes since the heady days of piracy. A sizable Chinese presents in the North and South Atlantic would be destabilizing and provoke a weighty response from America. In fact, dependant on the number of ships deployed by China the situation could reflect many of the fexed questions and issues… Read more »
Let go of Afghanistan and I’d think the Chinese may be very tempted to go ‘help’ Ghani. a) would piss off the West *; b) could answer for their anti on muslim extremism **; c) there is plenty of mineral wealth to help pay for it under debt diplomacy. Principal Con is the perennial – it’s Afghanistan. * By the way, why didn’t we develop the minerals under Ghani government cooperation? Likely to aid the population as well as anything else over the decades we’ve been there. Biden, your’s I believe. ** Though the Politburo reaching an accommodation with the… Read more »
I remember when I got to Bagram and chatted with a couple of Rangers. They were talking about hitching a ride up to a plateau to do some snowboarding. They were adamant that the Taliban never went there or up that high. As they said the snow was totally untouched. Sadly never heard if they actually managed the trip.
I have many rules. One is never mess with mountain tribes/people. Hard as nails. Reckon the Taliban know that too
Your point is interesting, maybe increased Chinese influence in both diplomatic/financial and military aid globally, might be one answer in taming Muslim extremism? However, China will want to achieve greater oceanic dominance in order to manage the shipment of much-needed minerals. Exclusive portage is another area of concern and a hindrance to free shipping in the future?
On all political fronts, from social through superpower, this century seems well set to deliver another of Our periodic tectonic shifts, Maurice.
Sorry, missed some of your remark about mineral shipments. Though sea routes are undoubtedly prime, I’d had in mind the border between Aghanistan and China when penned. Not extensive, granted, but there, of course.
Chinese seem to have a penchant for developing high passes & border outposts, as we (well, India) know. That, and their B&R initiatives seemed to make ‘Gan as likely a candidate as any, all else being equal.
Regards
Yes… But the Capt on that ship was a total tool.
We turned up on Brum on our Gulf Deployment not long after that happened. It was interesting times in the Ops room following that cock up. ..
It’s an interesting question, however I think the West would hinge it’s argument on China’s actions in the South China Sea creating security concerns for our regional allies like Malaysia, Taiwan and Australia. We’d say that if it wasn’t for them contesting territorial waters, building new island bases, scraping the sea floor bare with their fishing fleets and so on there would be no need for a international presence in their backyard. A Chinese naval group in The Atlantic would arguably have no similar rational and it would be framed purely as antagonistic power projection. Not saying that’s the entire… Read more »
Which country bordering this side of the Atlantic that would be influenced by a Chinese show of force anyway? Nobody in the EU or NATO is going to be that impressed anyway. And the difference is that China will then be in someone else’s well defended back yard bordered by well established bases and a huge number of vessels with the legs and knowledge of the area. The Chinese may be interested in Latin American mineral deposits but the regimes there are not that open to the Chinese financial overtures having seen the mess that the 2008 crash and minerals… Read more »
For me, this is a life fire training exercise, with the potential for Russian systems to train against the F35 as an added bonus – do we have enough intel aircraft in theatre to harvest the catch, as they open up their systems?
Sorry my comment was OT – a bit anyway.
I agree it is a live fire exercise IRL.
I would presume we could run intel aircraft out of Cyprus with AAR or use American assets.
I wouldn’t be too surprised if the ELINT wasn’t being picked up by fixed assets dropped in place that encrypt and send the data back either over local broadband or cellular. As it is passive it would virtually impossible to detect particularly if you made the data stream look like CCTV….
“by fixed assets dropped in place that encrypt and send the data back either over local broadband or cellular.”
Not to sure about that, it would mean having your own crypto sat where it could be found. Might not be of much use to ISIS but they could maybe swap it for lots of AK47’s.
Just my take on it, no inside knowledge.
No need… One of the T45s if fitted out with enough elint gear to listen to little green men on Mars and translate the language they are speaking . Failing that any take goes straight back to GCHQ over the SATCOM for analysis.
As I am very sure you know radio sensitivity is inverse cube of distance.
So the closer you are the more detail you hear of very faint signals and the more breakthrough you pick up of the behind the scenes bits that nobody is meant to hear.
From that you can deduce the system architecture and physical layouts from which bit is cross talking to which other bits.
One of my previous drafts was a sigint /elint equipped T 22.
The stuff you could pick up and analyse across the spectrum was unbelievable and that was 1980/90 tech.
Digital mobile phones cannot be listened into? Bollocks. Look how big a mobile is and then look at how big the gear is on an elint equipped asset. When a CT tells you about the bootycall you gave your missus you know nothing is secure.
Defo a mobile signal is easy to pick up with ELINT level gear. And the encryption, such as it is, won’t defeat anyone owning a few brain cells.
All I’m saying is the closer you are the better S/N you have and the better the S/N you have over atmospheric noise etc the better you are able to get obscure details out of it.
You can deduce, with the right kit, pretty much what is in the next rack along. Even if it isn’t connected just by the RF leakages.
There can be other units that are harder to see than a T45 doing the same thing. Allegedly. 😉
All you are going to use is commercial masking (video embedding) and commercial crypto.
The rest is just a commercial wide band Antenna and receiver then onto a Linux box doing the software bit. You can add some software driven analogue butterworth filters to taste.
The CCTV fees would be something that made sense locally like a petrol station or shop that was being rebroadcast.
This is really one up from ‘the rock in the park’.
All speculation on my part but all very easy to do with bits you can easily buy. And very hard to detect.
Fair enough SB, I was thinking military kit, hadn’t considered off the shelf.
I wanted to mention real concerns over Sri Lanka; I feel it is a huge mistake ti leave this strategically placed Island alone given how China are buying it lock stock and barrel. Its ability to interdict the Indian Ocean, Gulf traffic and bottle up the SCS make it vital that we invest in dedence engagement and least we cod do is make a port visit – there is much residual affection for things British that is might make quite a Statement on the populace although the doubt the current kleptocratic brothers in charge at the moment would change course… Read more »
Why is that a rant?
I’d count that as a pretty factual observation TBH.
Tappatalk.. I wish I could edit.
Yes I meant to include that above, I literally read an Indian response to what’s happening there and they are deeply concerned and being very verbal about how they will react should China start operating out of a base there. Serious potential hotspot developing here.
Well, I just read that even the opposition leader believes in strong ChiCom leadership… I really am shocked, I had thought he was a cause for good.
Should Lanka go Chinese, the SLOCs will be in serious distress at times of crisis – ask Mountbatten.
We have fixed assets already in the region. There are at least 4 sites in Cyprus operated by Britain with intelligence gathering infrastructure.
Other remote sensors elsewhere are reputed to be able to send back “take” to at least 3 UK sites, passively like SB suggests, and if people must be on the ground then surely we have that capability too, such with 18 SR.
We also have access to “AIRHANDLER” with Reaper though unsure if that is relevant here as don’t think that is ELINT.
Then of course SHAMAN.
That is not even counting other 5 Eyes assets.
Well I’m. It sure if China has bases in South America and Africa which it is slowly trying to move towards that the west would just brush it off with a laugh. It would be used for political and economic influence an extension of what we are already seeing, out influencing the West as they see it but with all the subtlety of Trump in so doing (but without the media triumphalism). Brazil has already been ‘punished’ for daring to criticise the efficacy of its vaccine, Australia’s has been reminded its within Ballistic missile range and the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia,… Read more »
Have a huge like.
China is definitely heavily investing in Africa. They have already been accused of gazumping a number of previous agreed mineral mining agreements. Nigeria are high on their hit list, as they’re interested in the Country’s oil.
The growing establishment of the manmade islands in the SCS is an ominous sign that nothing, but nothing, will stop China’s determination to control and manage its trade routes. Some see these actions as extreme and worrisome and rightly so. The West has to show growing support for the free nations of the area by stationing increased numbers of naval vessels, to demonstrate its resolve against Chinese ambitions.
Good Morning. We have already leant over backwards to include the Chinese into the international order, of course. Whilst at least a number on here have acknowledged that it may be China’s turn as the new power. After all, the transition to the USA was as painless as it gets on that front, albeit she still follows her own best interests. ‘Painless’ due to the same basic democratic values. These concern us most, to the extent that we will go down fighting to preserve them*. In my opinion, it’s now time to hit her where it hurts, by incrementally reshoring… Read more »
Ive been predicting this since the route announcement, its the naval equivalent of a Drive By.
Anybody is free to navigate international waters worldwide, so a PRC carrier group or any other can do what it likes in peacetime just like the rest of the world. It’s only the faux outrage of the press that try to make something of routine movements. Apart from the PRC of course who destroy beautiful atolls, build artificial islands, naval & airbases in contested waters hundreds of miles from China & then try to bully everyone into aquiescing to their annexing them & claiming international waters.
By modern tradition, both the US and UK treat the Atlantic as their ocean, not in any official way but as a simple rule of thumb. Any opposing naval vessels are treaded with deep suspicion, and the Russians have been closely monitored for years. However, the ocean is view by them in the same way as the West, a free zone of travel. The Med is treated in a similar fashion, but, rouge Chinese naval vessels are unwelcome in either waters. A regular and sizable Chinese naval task group in Western waters would be unsettling, just as the Chinese object… Read more »
Primary objective of the PRC I think would be to invade & subdue Taiwan(eliminating all dissent) & cordon it off from USN & allied intervention by use of its own carrier groups. Then they’d want to “secure” all sources of raw materials & the sea lanes bringing them in. Lastly & not necessarily least, undermining & destabilising freedopm loving nations & supporting authoratarian regimes who don’t criticise the PRC. Imagine a PLAN similar in size(possibly) acting to deter those of us from protecting liberty & propping up cruel dictatorships. The PRC is terrified of being overthrown as so many Communist… Read more »
Your right and you can add control of significant fishing grounds to that list of reasons.1.6b need a lot of protein. PRC have been deploying to Indian Ocean for years now and over past few years have had several survey vessels mapping strategic areas of the Indian Ocean sea bed.
Got to justify the taxpayers money spent on these tin cans,
Interesting tweet from HMS Prince of Wales showing the bow of the ship:
https://twitter.com/HMSPWLS/status/1405452601576103936?s=20
After all the cats and traps F35B vs C kerfuffle this is an step to establish QE class credibility as a ‘strike’ carrier. Presumably the F-35s will be refuelled by Voyagers operating out of Akrotiri.
It is 500nm from the edge of Cyprus to Baghdad so that mission would not need Voyager support, nor would any Syrian mission.
So it is. At the extreme of the strike radius of F-35B?
Irrespective of what purpose and benefit for bombing terrorists there may be… Is it really necessary or wise to showboat our intentions?
Suppose we don’t find any terrorists?
Then we won’t drop any expensive smart weapons. We are not in the business of killing people for a headline in Navy news.
Trust me theres plenty of targting info stored to know where the relevent cockroach squads are, and if there is both training value and crew moral gained, along with a few dead scumbags, I think it would be an opportunity missed.
I’m sitting here sincerely hoping that this is part of a necessary Op and not some concocted stunt potentially putting the lives of our boys and girls at risk just so the government can deliver a cynical PR coup. Why am i getting the feeling however, that it’s more to do with the latter?
Because it is?
Totally agree some of the pr stuff you see coming out of the MoD or various decorated Top Brass about world class thus and that is as embarrassing as build back better and all that crap. Do what you need to do and learn bf no need to surround it with bullshit. Is there a tv crew with this task force by the way? If so I’m sure we will have video of capt Boris sending them his best wishes and inane historical platitudes, blah blah, blah.
Initial reaction mine as well. But say the F35’s just replace regular Typhoon sorties? Then the actual operational data, and perhaps more so issues revealed, are a considerable plus.
It’s not as if we’ve just picked a previously unattended target. Isis might not mind that much which aircraft drops explosive on them. If they do take exception, we can look for their letter in The Times soon starting:-
Sir,
It’s a very valuable training experience for the aircraft and the crew’s. We don’t kill people for a news headline.
I’m with you. It’s not a jamboree from the point of view of RN, I’m sure. Although uncomfortable to be reminded of what this stuff is ultimately for, it’s a logical extension of the intense training that’s been evident throughout NATO. If mainly for PR, then it comes with as much political/military risk as benefit. So no, not really.
Of course a large element is PR, but if it is also useful for training and confirmation of TTPs, good for moral of crews and all involved, and if a few paveways manage to mince a few cockroache ISIS, cannot see an issue.
I don’t mind the PR, just shout about it after the event.
Must be some Paveways coming up on LIFEX.
DROP’EM OR LOSE’EM!
And that is probably the bottom line of the truth of it.
I agree that lots of EoL munitions get fired off to get rid of them as it is good practice for the crew as well as being cheaper than disposal costs.
Well at least they can do a RAS (S) Exp on completion of the sorties…. Another tick in the box.
We can do that from Cyprus.
My concern is that they try to sail her into the gulf, the Iranians have developed the Khalij Fars missile and have mini subs ….
Exactly how many USN carriers or Wasp class have been hit by the Iranians? They have dropped a shed load More metal on people than the UK has without incident
They will come Out in speed boats, sail dangerously… Possibly have a few warning shots fired at them and then they will head back to port in time for tea and falafal.. They don’t do kippers… The Arab guys I work with don’t do smoked fish…they prefer it fresh which I assume is the same for the Persians.
They are not scared of the UK, by contrast they know if touch an American ship their military will be pounded. Personally I fear we are getting closer to the day when a serous escalation of hostilites will happen with Iran.
The Iranian Navy is pretty professional and plays by the rules of the road. The RG not so much but they are not going to mess with any allied veseel because they will get their assets handed to them. Only recently they pissed off the USN and USCG and had a load of 50 cal sent in there direction. They rapidly Billy big stepped out of the way. As to scared of the UK… Er yes they are. They know full well that a corridor 200miles deep from the coast inland will cease to exist with any military targets should… Read more »
I see. There is enough firepower in the CSG to sink every single Iranian military vessel several times over. If their airforce tried to attack the F35s and ASTER would make short work of them. The only thing we would have trouble with would the the fantasy 5th gen planes: you know the ones they have to tow around that don’t have enough cockpit depth to shut the canopy over a real pilot and have a HUD that looks like it was nicked off a till in Sainsbury’s. As they don’t work there will be no RF signature to track… Read more »
I am more concerned with their anti ship missiles and mini subs, the current Iranian surface fleet is no match for anything. They are currently working on a 6000 ton destroyer that will carry the Khalij Fars missile.
This is a country that has twice announced new stealth aircraft on public tv only for them to turn out to be wooden mockups, and released footage of the aircraft ‘flying’ which were toy remote controlled planes.
Most people with any sort of subject matter knowledge have very little concern about the Iranian military capabilites. They are full of chuff and have trouble keeping the crap they already have relevent.
Just an observation, Sir, but that’s a brave handle you’ve chosen yourself. Most would not consider they could hazard more than Opinions.
Try to stay on topic. Ad hominem responses add no value to this discussion and are uncalled for..
Listen to GunBuster. This is real life, not a Tom Clancy novel.
Theyve developed sweet FA mate, they are having trouble keeping a basic sort of military competence, never mind developing something new…..
I don’t know about that, those missiles they fired at the American bases seemed to be pretty accurate.
Did you really say that as a counter argument! Hilarious! Those bases are static targets multiple kilometers in size, if they missed them then they real should have a fucking word with themselves pal! Behave and try again mate, hilarious.
Targeting the US airbase in central Iraq and Kurdistans airport just 80km from the Iranian border they fired 17 missiles. 11 Qiam 1 (which are license built copies of a North Korean SRBM with an 800km range) hit the base while two fell short, meanwhile the Erbil airport was targeted with indigenous Fateh 313 missiles (their most advanced design with a range of 500km). One crashed 20km from the airport while the other two didnt even get close to hittting it.
Wasn’t that around the time their air defences panicked and downed the airliner too?
Yes, was a few hours later when they were expecting a retaliation and so were on edge. The AA battery was right underneath an airports take-off corridor, when the airplane appears on the radar screen they panicked and thought american bomber!
Sums up the case for the prosecution nicely.
Just an observation but this UKDJ article seems to be based on the May 5th PR here, given the quotes being used – https://www.gov.uk/government/news/f-35b-jets-to-join-the-fight-against-daesh-from-the-carrier-strike-group UKDJ use the headline “British carrier to strike targets in Syria and Iraq” in the headline. The original PR does not use this language. The Twitter quotes from Commodore Moorhouse don’t either. The PR talks about capability to deliver effects. The closest CM tweets get to it is “… now we deliver the hard punch of maritime based air power“. Both communications simply refer to operating air patrols that have the capability and may release weapons,… Read more »
Not sure I agree, from the same PR:
‘The F-35B Lightning jets will pack a potent punch against Daesh and help prevent them from regaining a foothold in Iraq.’
Perceptions do matter. No problem at all dealing with the threat at hand, but using CSG is transparently unnecessary, when Akrotiri has done the job perfectly well up till now.
So it *looks* like a PR stunt regardless if that’s intended or not, and we laugh at the Russians for such antics. Just because we can do it better doesn’t make it *look* any less childish to others.
Sorry mate I’m not understanding what you’re disagreeing with, probably my fault. The point I was trying to make is the headline states that strikes will happen, the PR and Twitter comments don’t say that, even if the language comes across as a bit fighty. Suggesting or directly stating that we are deploying with a pre-planned intent to conduct strikes is IMO a very bad look, since it doesn’t seem the level of Daesh activity warrants that firm commitment to strikes. As you say, clearly Akrotiri can do the task with Typhoons, or as in the past, with F-35Bs. I… Read more »
OK fair point, I’m not really arguing with you directly as such! I take your points about the difference between actual action and a show of force, training benefits etc. Others have noted the difference between fighting Daesh and the Russians propping up the Syrian regime. These are all perfectly valid arguments. My concern is that others may not notice the distinctions here, and will simply take it at face value. We are already a bit on the back foot here due to other recent ‘adventures’. So IMO it’s simply not the best course of action to help win international… Read more »
A very valid point regarding distinctions, the last thing we need to be doing is generating or reinforcing perceptions of modern gun boat diplomacy.
Yep I think that was my point, thanks for putting it so succinctly!
More will be out in the coming days and our headline will make sense. Operations have been ongoing for a short period now.
Plenty of targets on the E & T;
but, damn, I hope they leave them be.
Nice to see the new RN CV group will be joining the party. lol
Stupid to do this even more stupid to advertise it, the Russians already have an s400 system to cover Syria and ELINT resources, there is much to learn for them from analysing the electronic emissions
Got to remember while CSG away need to keep eye on Russia subs around our waters ,just don’t like the feeling with a few Destroyers and Frigates gone the reds may up there game.🙄
NATO is aware of every sub that leaves the Kola via satellite observation, IUSS still exists, ( SOSUS successor) and I believe at least one USN SSN hangs out in the Barents Sea trailing Russian sub assets. Probably one of ours too, if not outside Murmansk certainly close to our waters.
MoD/1SL looks more concerned by their spy vessels, thus this “MROSS” idea which seems to be a modern HMS Challenger.
Even with the CSG away rest of Merlin force is available, TAPS, the other tailed T23s, and now Posiedon joining USN and Norwegian ones.
All will be well! 😙
Bit sad about HMS Challenge she never had much sevice with the RN before been sold off,Ironic really now we need to have capability back again all takes money and time .But that’s how thing’s stand.🙂
Yes, the activities of that vessel in its short life have always intrigued me.
IT was said by RN she could run rings round other vessels of her type at the time ,but your right not a lot said about what she got up to.
Hi Dan. If one SSN is with the CSG, a second needed to relieve her and the T boats in the doldrums, what boat are we sending?
Ditto the tail force
Ditto the new incumbent P8 force.
I love your positive thinking and can we agree to disagree?
The Cons have slashed defence and it needs an increase in spend.
IF there want to play Top Gun ,yes more money in the Defence pot 💰
I think we need an increase in spend to just cover the basics – for too long I’ve heard that increased capability means we can subsist on fewer numbers, that is a fallacy that it will take time to recover from.
👍
Hi Barry. Of course we can! I’d suggest one of the T boats, as Deep32 has explained they remain useful if used more sparingly. I may be mistaken maybe they’re both unavailable. I would point out in my defence with regards to other comments that even our limited assets can keep an eye on Russia, Andrews main thrust of his post with the CSG away worrying what Russia’s few subs might be up to. And not just ours, NATO too, as I suggested. Cons cut defence, certainly. 2010 was a betrayal. But so did Labour from 97 to 2010. Just… Read more »
I think you will find that all the UK units assigned to the CSG will remain together for the duration of the deployment, so, there would be no need for any units to be relieved. Not sure what you mean by the T boats being ‘in the doldrums’? They are still active units, it is a world of difference deploying over a distance of some 10000 nm then it is say 2000nm where some of your assets are 30+ years old. As Daniele has pointed out below, keeping tabs on what comes out of the Barents is a NATO task,… Read more »
Defence has gone up.
Your comments ref para 1 are pretty much how it works mate, there would also be lots of MPA support from both the Norwegians and US.
The general idea is to keep tabs on any potential OOA deployment until it gets to where it’s going or returns home, and all points in-between.
Thanks Deep, that was my understanding.
Lots of intel extras that are classified too I’m sure to keep track and of course the JMF successor at Dam Neck keeps Northwood / Com Ops aware.
Welcome to global politics 101… our pollies are showboating and I suggest denudi g the defences of the British Isles.
The Baltics just need a spark to light the blue touch paper, the Ukraine is in jeopardy and Taiwan is rich pickings if the ChiComs can pull it off.
Tinder box at the moment.
Spot on David ,think Ukraine seem to think if there become NATO member there will be safe from USSR not to sure this will a good thing has just Get the the reds backs up .Has for Taiwan think China already has a plan to be use within next 5yrs.Unless CSG make them think twice 💣
It’s not a good thing! It is nuts and a sure path to WW3.
I agree, at the end of the day nato membership for a nation already in a shooting war with Russia will very likely lead to article 5 being enacted At some point . At that point 4 of the worlds nuclear powers will be in a shooting war and there would be a fair to middling chance a good chunk of our population would end up dead and our nation dust. I don’t think it’s right what Russia is doing in Ukraine, but the Russian geopolitical gestalt has revolved around the near abroad for so long and their national trauma… Read more »
Even with Royal Navy deployment throughout the world including the CSG I am sure the Services have an on going defence strategy ,which outlines the amount of defence the UK requires .
I am sure there is a paper somewhere and it was signed off on; much like everything else this Govt has done.
Could you point me to the substance, the actual tin-tacks?
Wouldn’t it just be cheaper to use the Typhoons?
In financial terms based on operating costs yes, but this will be about gaining combat experience for the pilots and testing the equipment in a live environment.
There is no more Daesh in Syria , it’s just target practice what they plan! Extraordinary times we live in 🤔
No more Daesh in Syria? Oh dear, who told you that George Galloway? Baghuz fell in 2019 but thers still plenty of the cockroaches estimated at 10-15K active, both in Syria and Iraq.
We have no right to bomb sovereign states under international law without UN resolution. We all know how Iraq started by now . Parliament refused strikes against Syria , I’m not sure who gave Bojo permission to strike 2 sovereign countries with our new carriers . Even the US is pulling out! Galloway? He has more credibility than you for sure when it comes on being right on the middle East and international law
More credibilty than me, wow thats a robust statement without knowing the other person you are attempting to pontificate to. Anyway back to your post (and reply, thje one where you ignore your initial statment and divert your response), you stated there are no more ISIS in Syria, let me assure you there are numerous, and in Iraq, all cutting about in the more austere areas such as Bediyah and Dayr-as-Zawr. The SDF did claim to have squared the area away but alas theres a large number of both staging posts and training camps remaining. Subject matter knowledge and in… Read more »