The two minehunters were decommissioned in Rosyth this week.
According to a Royal Navy news release:
“Both Sandown-class mine countermeasures vessels have served extensively during careers spanning 21 years and 175,000 miles for Ramsey, 185,000 miles over 20 years for Blyth, supporting operations in the Middle East, around the UK or on NATO duties in northern European and Mediterranean waters. Dozens of affiliates and friends joined the crews, RN leaders and Deputy Chaplain of the Fleet Reverend Martin Evans, with music provided by the Band of HM Royal Marines Plymouth.
HMS Ramsey left her home port at Faslane for the final time in August last year, sailing to Rosyth where she has undergone work to prepare her for formal decommissioning. Blyth passed down Gareloch for the last time a month ago. The two ships were the first sent to Bahrain when the government decided a permanent minehunter presence was required in the Gulf – a presence which continues to this day.”
Ramsey’s final Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Commander Joel Roberts was quoted as saying:
“HMS Ramsey has given 21 years of operational service to the Royal Navy and throughout her life it has been the members of her ship’s company, the people, who have made her what she is. It is time to say farewell to a ship that has been both a home and a way of life to so many. She will undoubtedly be missed, but rather than being sad, today is about remembering her duty and celebrating her 21 years of distinguished service.”
We’re certainly poking the Bear with a stick ! I like it. Does anyone know where the Ukrainians are going to be trained. Is it going to be there or over here.
Maybe some of our cloak and dagger boys could nick that stripper pole from Putins palace ! 😀
Biden is turning out to be a lot less different to Trump than people hoped/feared.
It was Obama that did very little to nothing to support Ukraine when Russia invaded. He only allow medical supplies, ect. At least Trump got them some military gear and training. Now Biden wants to stop all that to appease Putin. My guess is Putin has something on Biden and told him when they met.
You can poke, but one better have something big to hit him with when he bites.
Good ships, they have served us well. Hopefully a satisfying replacement can be found. E.g. Motherships for the UUV’s
Hmmm. I fear that a sleight of hand is going to go on there. When MCM transitions to mothership + UAV I fear that the motherships might well end up being some of these “extra” (not really extra) T31s/T32s that are being planned and as such will essentially end up being double counted since a single ship will be seen as both an extra frigate and a replacement for some of the previous Hunt/Sandown capability leading to further pressures on ship numbers. That might not happen, maybe a whole new class of MCM mothership is in the works or maybe whatever new frigate class is intended to also perform the MCM mothership role will be built in numbers appropriate to that class needing to undertake both roles; time will tell I suppose.
A dedicated mother-ship doesn’t look likely as there have been no announcements or even rumours of something in the pipeline. The Hunts & Sandowns are meant to be out of service by around 2030 and the T32’s have been touted as focusing on off-board ASW / mine-hunting systems.
I completely agree that whilst it’s great to have flexible, remote systems that can be deployed on any surface vessels a few motherships would allow for situations where we need persistent mine-hunting or the ability to have an asset focus solely on securing an area without distracting the T32’s from other tasks.
The RN needs 24 major surface combatants, not 19 plus 5 that are called frigates but spend most of their time fulfilling the mine warfare role.
One idea might be to bring some of the River batch 2’s back to the UK to replace the older ones in the fisheries role once they decommission and then procure something like the BMT Venari concept as a multi role patrol, mine-hunter and survey vessel that can be forward based around the globe.
Venari 85 is something that definitely piqued my interest. I’d really like to see that concept fleshed out further by BMT, or if it already has been then to have more details revealed. I wonder what the cost penalty is for the signature reduction that it talks about hence the likely overall build cost.
I know it’s water under the bridge now, and I understand that the delays on the T26 meant that a ready-to-go design was needed to get something into build quickly enough to fulfil the contract commitments hence the River Batch 2s, but a part of me can’t help wondering whether, had the stars aligned at the time, Venari 85 might have been a better candidate for the next generation OPVs.
With the roles you mentioned Venari 85 might have given the possibility of ultimately as they went out of service consolidating River B1, Clyde (is that sufficiently different to River B1 to count as a class of 1?), Hunt, Sandown, and Echo all down to a single class instead of us adding an additional River Batch 2 class to the mix. And with Venari’s integrated drone hangar it would have had instant inbuilt extra capability in patrol/policing roles if only we had a suitable drone to equip it with. Without knowing those extra details re likely cost, endurance etc it’s hard to know whether it would have been a practical option to fulfil the River B2 roles though I suppose.
Apart from restoring carrier capability, since their “growing RN” claim we’ve actually reduced escort numbers with no prospect of actual increases in numbers for a decade or more. Such appallingly low numbers make our navy very brittle indeed, especially when running obsolete or gapped kit. Our conventional forces weakness only embolden our enemies & make our voice in the world as a force for good less credible.
At least the Guardian/Observer will be happy I guess.
In reality Mr Bell and Frank…we have lost two T23’s, going to Greece, the two Sandown’s, both of which were decommissioned and three Hunt class which were all over thirty years old.
One T23, as the other was not in an operational state and never would be again.
Agreed
2 forts as well have gone this year
Frank was talking about escorts but fair comment.
understood, problem is we are now at such a small size that every vessel counts, and they keep on doing away with ships by stealth
it is not that long ago (2 years maybe) that we had 16 MCM’s, 22 P2000’s and 22 RFA.
We are now down to 11, 18 and 13 by my reckoning. look back 12 years and it is frightening how much capability has been lost.
I think its time the RFA was brought into the RN fully as clearly we are using them as naval vessels.
11 MCM
16 P2000 (we have never had 22), increasing to 18 if you count Sabre/Scimitar, which although of a different class, are still in service
11 RFA (it hasn’t been as high as 22 for a lot longer than 2 years)
That 22 figure resonates with me too. Must have seen it in a book.
4 Replenishment.
5 Rover.
2 Wave.
4 Bay.
1 Aviation.
1 Repair.
22? What have i missed Leafs?
Up until 2009, we had four leaf class vessels in service (Bay, Bramble, Oak, Orange), however, at that date, only two Rovers were in service (two paid-off in the 1990s, one in 2006). Olna left service in 2000, so maybe that would factor in in some way, but that would clash with other dates. Hmm, tricky. Let me unpack it a little from memory.
Taking January 2009 as a date, it would be:
2 x Waves
2 x Rover
4 x Leaf
4 x Fort (Fort I and Fort II)
1 x Aviation
1 x Repair
4 x Bay
+ 6 x Ro-Ro
However, if we go back to ~2003:
2 x Waves
3 x Rover
4 x Leaf
4 x Fort (Fort I and Fort II)
2 x Sea Class (Ro-Ro)
1 x Aviation
1 x Repair
5 x Round Table Class
That takes you to 22.
Is that confirned?
the 2 forts are definitely gone, think they are up for sale.
The Type 23 are being offered to Greece as part of the UK bid for their frigate programme, in all likelihood neither will end up with the Hellenic navy.
where are they going then?
Currently nowhere, the Greek frigate story has been massively misreported in the UK press including here in UKDJ with its extremely misleading headline about them being gifted to Greece.
The Hellenic navy Frigate replacement and upgrade Programme due to its urgency stipulates that all bidders must provide 2 interim frigate at short notice as part of the deal. They can be either be used or new in build. The only hulls that the UK has to offer to meet that KUR is those two T23.
Damen for example are offering two Karel Doorman to meet that KUR.
First thing to do will be a refit to remove the UK kit and to no doubt fit the Ukrainian spec’d kit that they want onboard . That will also give the new crew some time to train on the systems before they take the ships over.
As the unmanned MCM systems come into service and the other Sandown’s pay off there is going to be a lucrative market in selling them on to new users. Hull and structurally wise they can pretty much go on indefinitely with only the internal machinery requiring renewal and upgrades.
Any fitout of Ukrainian kit would happen in a Ukrainian yard, there are several in Odessa.
It will be interesting to see if they keep their DSM30 MK2, they are a valuable piece of UK Government furnished kit that could come back into the pool and totally alien to the Ukrainians ammunition wise. Their Gyurza M class patrol boats are fitted with the domestic Katran-M system that incorporates a 30mm ZTM-1 autocannon, I can see that being fitted in its stead.
I don’t think there is any shortage of DSM30?
There are new units for QEC that have not been fitted yet.
The issue is more logistic based for the Ukraine, maybe they want to bring STANAG 4624 30x173mm into service certainly they want to align with NATO but they must have warehouses full of 30x165mm.
Like Cato at and defence missile systems
The ones we gave to Lithuania were re-engined with Caterpillar units, new pops and shaft bearings, everything else was in excellent condition – i dont know what was done topside, its too bright up there for me to look around too much
Which units are going to operate the UMCMS systems? Anyone know please?
Interesting, thanks. I’m still trying to get my head round the autonomous stuff.
Tell you what though mate… I’m surprised that nobody has had the bright idea of actually commissioning Hebe/Harrier/Hornet. By that, I mean on the HMG side of things. It would be an easy way to claim the vessels have been replaced! I can even see it: “The Royal Navy has commissioned its first autonomous vessels. HM ships Hebe, Harrier and Hornet join the fleet as replacements for ____, offering a game-changing capability upgrade.”
You get my drift. 😂
They might yet.
And they are an upgrade.
But cannot self deploy, that’s my concern.
So those first 3, am i right in saying they are for Faslane only.
It seems like it at the moment.
Personally, I would take 5 x T32 plus 8 x MCM motherships or so, but that’s just me. I would still argue that we should see T32 as a replacement for historical cuts to T22/23, but those numbers would keep the fleet as is.
Faslane is interesting, though. The base (under current plans) will eventually lose 7 of its commissioned ships. We all know what a certain political group thinks (often erroneously claiming that there are no ships in Scotland), so I wonder if there will be a sweetener somewhere?
Good point. As it is its an open goal.
Eev no ships let’s give away four to Greece and the Ukraine
A bribe, is a bribe, is a bribe.
Perfidious Albion. We have history at being good at that. Long may it continue.
Well bribe ‘s and corruption is the backbone of dictatorship like russia, this is hardly a bribe karlski
Ukraine is run by a mafia, has a flourishing fascist movement and jailed a president. Yeah, good guys all.
Nope ,but Russia really is a mafia state, the Ukraine going the right way not your desalit nation , keep trying karlski lol.
Supporting a democracy against aggressive authoritarians, is Supporting a democracy against aggressive authoritarians, is supporting a democracy against aggressive authoritarians……
I like saying things three times, clearly it makes me right.
NATO is rushing to rebuild the Ukranian navy which was effectively wiped out when Russia annexed Crimea, several countries have been donating ships.
Agree and as commented before, we not only lose their pirmary capability but her secondary roles -eyes and ears, a presence,anti piracy, drugs, fisheries protection,other tasks requiring lower end armed vessels
Are river class not taking over these secondary roles?
Yes. and there’s eight of them.
Yes and No Mark. The River Class have slotted in primarily to relieve the shrunken Frigate fleet from having to attend to low end duties and shore up the protection of Fisheries and surge in illegal immigration in the North Sea and English Channel. Also remember there are only 5 Batch 2’s and we are set to lose all 12 of the remaining MCM’s, so there is still a net loss of hulls available. Also the remaining Escorts now reduced to 17 have a big surge in duties having to accompany HMS QE and her Task Force so there is even more pressure!!
11 now, mate!
Hi Lusty-the bottom is the limit😁!! It’s hard to keep up! Hope you are well Squire Cheers from Durbs
haha, indeed! I’m just thankful that my beloved HMS Penzance has managed to cling on, for now. It’s nice having a ship named for your hometown!
Good to hear, all is well here. 😄
Dealing with mines is an area undergoing radical modernisation. Better to modernise than stay with kit rusting away. It is all very well counting the hulls but if a hull is now next to useless it already counts as zero in my book.
The Russians have many hulls still on the books but are all of them capable of leaving harbour let alone fighting? Failing to modernise has lost many a conflict let’s fight for the fuure not the past.
Exactly lets be bit glass half full guys, we are getting rid of 1 type 23 which works but is very old, 1 which is stripped for parts and 2 mine hunters which will be gradually replaced with a world beating cutting edge drone service. We still have more anti mine capability than any one else. We have new river class for non front line, we have ordered 13 frigates with 5 to follow but we have to avoid the ‘boom and bust’ of times gone by when we build everything in 2 years, lay everyone off, wait 20 years then do it again. We need constant building to support strategic industries (and not selling them off)
Yep, this. We must look at positives.
Not much left not to!!
I thought they were built of GRP 😉
Having eyes and ears on the high seas is irreplaceable, that point is warranted.
Quite
No doubt I will be criticised by those who believe Bozo is doing well by the forces, but we seem to be in a situation where the platforms that matter (warships, front line aircraft, AFVs) are constantly being reduced in number on budgetary grounds, whilst there seems to be plenty of money for vanity projects (or should that be big boy’s toys for the incompetent overgrown schoolboy in no 10?).
I dont like guy but he is trying within the commons and economic restraints of huge pandemic and recession. He has given forces Billions extra. Theresa May, Cameron and Blair had no interest at all.
Its not the cold war, he cant justify billions more cash as Commons wont wear it.
Also public believe we are safe, even though we know very different
Not the point: money is being wasted on vanity projects which could better be spent on the basics – e.g. buying a few second hand offshore support vessels to use as motherships for the new remote control MCM boats…..
We don’t want second hand anything, we are trying to get rid of costly old platforms and kit
Spot on
Vanity projects like new sonar for T23, Ceptor for T45, BII T26, T31 missile integration for Mk41 VLS and F35B?
It’s only vanity if that’s your opinion on it, led by the political nose! Your thought process as I’ve mentioned prior is coloured by your political view of BJ and the Tories. What about the other extremely important upgrades and projects you have neglected to mention? Some posters have mentioned them in their replies to you. Comments and thoughts on these projects please? Thanks. And as someone has already stated why by old, used second hand shite?
Well said mate 🇬🇧👍
He is rather good at that.
Do you think the 500M upgrade to the T45 fleet is a vanity project? fitting an additional 24 Sea Captors. Or the CSG21 with the largest fleet of 5th gen F35’s to take to sea? Or T26? Or Typhoon upgrades or the new medium lift helicopter, or loyal wingman project’s. The list could go on……
I was going to say the same, yes a lot of new investment in the RN.
Any news on the motherships for the new system, they might be an improvement and good to protect Faslane but they are not independently deployable, unlike these.
For all the apparently new money, we sure are losing a lot before their replacements are meant to come online.
Just curious what is the benefits of separating the royal navy and the RFA ?
The cost…
Civvy manned ships are cheaper to operate and can still do a lot and in some cases more than a front line RN vessel can.
Bay class is a great example.
Cheers GB
Russia will confiscate these just like the others they grabbed. And we are too afraid to stop them – fact.
If Russia grabbs these vessels, paid for with British finance, we will have a bone to pick with them. We could grab one of theirs though the EC!
I presume that both Sandown and Hunt classes are too small to host the new autonomous systems. Both Belgium and Netherlands have ordered 6 new vessels each to operate them. They are slightly larger than River 2. As others have said, whilst it is an advantage to be able to operate offboard systems from frigates when circumstances require, to provide persistent mine hunting, we really need dedicated platforms. We are seriously short of escort vessels. Using any of them routinely as mine hunting motherships will only exacerbate that shortage. River 2s are to be forward deployed so they cannot be adapted to the role. As the minehunters are gradually paid off without replacement, we will also lose their secondary capability as OPVs. Will there be any ships left in UK waters to shadow Russian ships?
I simply don’t understand the thinking behind this.
Ok well how about there is limited crew and funds so if it’s between building 5 mine hunters or a frigate because we can’t afford and can’t crew both which do you buy? You will complain either way.
Or due to tech you can buy a frigate and have cheap drone solution when u need it with same ship and crew. It’s better than having to choose between them because there ain’t the public will to pay for more!
Having a cheap drone solution when you need it is the upside of an autonomous system. But if you need persistent operation, tying up a frigate ( which as you note costs many times more than an MCM vessel) only weakens your overall force.
You’re probably right about public unwillingness to fund more. The ill judged, costly and ultimately failed interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq have made it harder to argue the case. Nor is the current plan to base a larger part of our forces overseas likely to convince many. Only if the public can see a clear link to the necessary self defence of the UK can higher defence budgets be successfully argued for.
Hunts where looked at for operating the boats from. The stability issues where the killer. A small ish MCMV offloading and recovering 10tons of boat and associated kit did not work out well on the stability curve.
Thanks for confirming what I was just guessing. The new Dutch/Belgian mothership is I think @ 2800 and will carry 2 USV that will deploy the minehunting kit. Isn’t this just what we need to maintain our overall minehunting capability, an area in which we have ” punched above our weight”?
Is it just me or are other people wondering where their posts have disappeared to?
Yes. Wanted to reply to Lusty re a RFA convo we were having.
I suspect the filters George is using to remove undesirable comments might need a little tweaking. From past experience I can confirm it takes a while to get right and can be frustrating for those commenting in the mean time. Hopefully George will pick this up a give us some feeback 😀
Well our conversation involved RFA numbers and types as they’ve declined.
Lusty and I must have offended plenty with that!
Hah! I certainly hope we didn’t. Did you see I managed to find your 22?
It might be a little off-topic, but the RFA will play a crucial role as this technology matures. The Bays (and their future replacements) will be invaluable.
I got to read it via email alert. Couldn’t reply as it vanished.
I knew you would.
Ah, jolly good.
You know me!
Yep. You’re the man anything RN. Respect.
You’re too kind, mate.
I know who to go to for RAF/Army numbers, though! 😉
Hey mate, I hope this pings an email to you as well.
After the RFA figure we chatted about, I did some digging. Taking 2003 as the same date, the RN fleet comprised of the following:
Major surface assets
3 x Invincible
1 x Ocean
1 x Albion
11 x T42
16 x T23
4 x T22 B3
Submarines
5 x Swiftsure
7 x Trafalgar
4 x Vanguard
Survey Vessels
1 x Endurance
1 x Roebuck
2 x Echo
1 x Scott
1 x Gleaner
Patrol
3 x River B1
2 x Island
2 x Castle
2 x Scimitar/Sabre
16 x Archer/P2000
MCM
11 x Hunt
11 x Sandown
Historical
1 x Bristol
1 x Caroline
1 x Victory
+ Approximately 22 vessels in the RFA, for a total of 130.
Current numbers are 75/76 RN (accounting for the Trafalgar class that has yet to officially decommission) and 11 + 5 for the RFA (11 commissioned ships + 5 available to the MoD).
The only ‘increases’ to the number of commissioned ships when comparing that list to the current fleet came in the form of Bulwark and an extra River (meaning an extra OPV).
If I dig hard enough, I can probably tell you heli numbers as well.
It did indeed mate.
31 escorts. As I knew it was.
Don’t look up the helis, it’s too depressing!
I’m glad!
Oh yes, my poor, poor helicopters.
I don’t think it has much to do with George or a filter tbh, from what I’ve seen with a bit of experimenting if comments get flagged multiple times they go into a “sin bin” until George or one of the other mods restores them.
Sadly you don’t even need to be a poster here to flag comments so… happens really easily, and if a comment you responded to gets flagged a few times, then the entire thread goes.
Well whatever the cause I am assuming George doesn’t want threads disappearing and the overhead of re-instating them. If that is the case I am sure there is a method of switching it off should he so wish.
Ah great! More of our navy being given away for nothing.
Don’t surprised if most if not all the Sandown class are gifted off to other countries it solves the rather thorny issue of scrapping GRP hulls for the MOD. For that matter the Hunt class will also probably find new homes as well.
Meanwhile Biden halts 100million dollar military aid package to Ukraine. Ugh
Yaaaaawn
The MCMVs were always going to be mothballed or cut because of their age. Best way to do so is give them to friends who need them. What I don’t get is what is replacing them. So these autonomous MCMVs are great but unless you are sweeping the mouth of the Clyde or the Solent will need mother ships to operate successfully. Now if those mother ships end up being the T32 then the T32 isn’t really a frigate is it. What the RN actually need is a new class of Bay class like ships, as many as 10 or 12 (never happen), to do LSS, MCM mother ship, medivac, aviation support & disaster relief. This would be possible with an innovative, multi-purpose, low maintenance and low manning design.
Would you count the Absalons as Frigates?
Absalons are frigates when they are operating as frigates. Absalons are not frigates when operating in other roles. The thing here is that T32 can’t be both at once and that doesn’t expand the fleet, as promised.
Oh so they loose their ASuW and SAM’s if they operate in other roles? I don’t think so.
Does a Frigate stop being a Frigate when it’s along side and it’s crew is on leave? No? Does a Type 23 stop being a Frigate when it’s doing Humanitarian Aid? No.
Motherships might be commercial vessels such as oil platform support vessels. They could be STUFT, leased and/or purchased; operated by the RFA with RN MCM teams. These would be fine for operating off a friendly shore. For operating off a hostile shore you’d want a T31/32 type vessel because of the possible shore-launched air threats and/or FIAC threat.
Perhaps an additional option is your new class of vessels. The RN needs to consider how they would land vehicles and stores during a future hot war where Albion and Bay-class type vessels using slow off-loading systems are increasingly vulnerable and where safe access to RO-RO facilities are not guaranteed for them or Point-class. A vessel along the lines of a faster Damen LST120 goes a long way to supporting both the case I outline as well as your use cases, especially if we add Point-class replacement into the mix. If we deliberately keep the purchase and operating costs of such a vessel low, then your numbers or greater aren’t difficult to reach and would provide significant flexibility within the fleet.
https://products.damen.com/en/ranges/landing-ship/landing-ship-transport-120
May be a design like SD Victoria would be suitable ?
When most of us are concerned at the small size of our forces to deliver the ‘Global Britain’ concept, it seems strange that we are giving away two frigates to Greece and 2 MCMVs to Ukraine.
When I joined the RNR in 1984, it was essentially devoted to providing the 10-11 vessels of the 10th MCM Squadron – a modest emergency supplement to the c.40 mine counter vessels that the regular RN had in commission at the time. Fast forward nearly 40 years and RN is down to about 11 ships, whilst the RNR has none. This force level seems to be sized based on keeping 4 operational units in the Arabian Gulf for several more years, and a similar number at Faslane for SSBN protection. We can but hope that the new autonomous mine countermeasures capability is really at the stage where the QEC carriers can confidently enter/leave Portsmouth, whilst commercial ports such as London and Felixstowe can’t be blocked by a few dozen mines – hypothetically laid by a Russian, Chinese or Iranian merchant ship.
Strange thing that has happened here before-a whole lot of comments including mine and replies from amongst others, Lusty, have disappeared from below ????
Giving platforms away is nearly as good as a sale because the new owners will have to pay for support.
I thought the RN was pushing ahead with the MHC programme, a new class that would do both mcmv and hydrographic (survey), to replace Hunt, Sandown and Echo. It is referred to from time to time in various reports and the impression I got was that it is an ongoing development..
I assume this is what was referred to as the T32, which is an odd designation for a minor warship class ,but that doesn’t matter unduly if it ends up delivering a suitable replacement for these older classes. The T32 tag does suggests a larger ship then the mcmvs, maybe around the 3,000 ton mark of the Echos?
It is encouraging that the future UUVs are being trialled now, as I guess their size, weight and number will determine the size of the eventual mothership.
Do we know the planned ISD?
Well looks like the numbers of ship won,t increase that much by the time T31s/ T 26 s come into service they saved a lot of money by using a R F A ship as a littoral ship What about the next mine sweeper we will still need some built or a mother ship for the automated minesweepers etc, still a lot can happen between now and then
Wars and rumours of war, more war ships to pollute the oceans and more warplanes into the skies. Why do nations talk peace whilst they prepare for war? No wonder tonnes of dead fish washed up ashore in France last week. The oceans have become a grave yard for ships. While war ships pollute the oceans derelict B52 bombers each with its 4 massive engines gush out plums of toxic smoke into the atmosphere. So much environmental pollution. Makes all the talk about climate change and global warming sound like a tale told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury yet signifying nothing.