Aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales will sail to take part in a NATO exercise in the Arctic with frigate HMS Richmond, destroyer HMS Defender, a tanker and an Astute-class nuclear submarine.
The Royal Navy say here in a news release that around 35,000 troops from 28 nations are expected to be involved in Cold Response, which will show how a unified multilateral force would defend Norway and Europe’s northern flank from a modern adversary.
Roughly 900 Royal Marines will spearhead the UK involvement from HMS Albion which is already in the region, the Royal Navy add.
“Aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales will deploy to the exercise, with frigate HMS Richmond, Type 45 destroyer HMS Defender, a Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker and a nuclear-powered attack submarine escorting her. UK Merlin and Wildcat helicopters will patrol the skies, supporting commando operations and hunting submarines alongside a wide range of aircraft from across NATO, including F-35 fighter jets and attack helicopters.”
Brigadier Rich Cantrill, in charge of the UK’s commando forces, was quoted as saying:
“The UK is making a strong contribution to one of the largest Cold Response exercises for years. NATO as an alliance needs to be ready for anything, ready for all environments. It’s essential for us to support Norwegian partners and that’s why we train in the Arctic so often.
Cold Response is an amazing opportunity for key NATO allies and partners to come together in the most challenging environment of the High North, prepare for any eventuality and learn to work together. What we’ll see is a strong maritime task force and then land exercises. We will see many nations come together from the UK to Norway, the USA, the Netherlands, France, Germany and Italy.”
The exercise will run from March 10 to April 10.
Do we know what other NATO escorts will be available ?
The one part of Mad Vlad’s conventional inventory that is worrying are his subs.
Given the situation a good turn out is assured.
It is essentially another high readiness force primed and ready to deploy.
His Sub force is certainly formidable even in just a conventional sense.
Has some worrying capabilities within the sub force everything from cutting cables to of course the non conventional side of things with the Poseidon which looks a horrific weapon.
Assuming Poseidon
a) exists; and
b) works.
Very true but id rather not push to find out!!!
So far most of the ‘wonder weapons’ look a bit similar to those that an Austrian Corporal with a comedy moustache had?
The ‘working’ part is often the issue with any gear the Russians use. The Mig-25 caused similar fears, but when we got a a close look, it was junk.
Agreed
Exactly. It does exist but working would be another subject. The only sub that can launch it is belgorod and that’s still under sea trials. There is one other test sub not sure what it was called again.
I don’t see it as anymore scary than ICBM’s.
It’s development was started along time ago when there was a worry about anti missile defence in the future being able to stop the missiles. (Star Wars system etc) this has not exactly happened yet so it’s a bit of a show off weapon. Also lots of false info about it like it’s super cavitation 250+ knots etc. It’s not.
Still it is a big nuclear weapon.
What a waste of money, they would be much better putting funds in to their SSN’s which are pretty decent than Poseidon, like the 6000 nukes they have at the moment are not enough. The west is so paranoid about nukes they would not attack a country with one.
P-8 overwatch.
The Voyagers need refueling booms, so badly.
Serious question WHY ? as they have proved to be more than capable and no other user of the Type has found a need to re-fuel. same with P8s and E7s. so little fuel burn from Mother dont need to constantly go backwards
I would tend to agree. We have US boom tankers stationed in the U.K and if refuelling was needed it would be provided. Perhaps apart from the most unusual distant situation.
Our pilots not trained for boom fuelling.
Yes they are certain crews on ea h Sqn are type rated to you boom. 51Sqn for example routinely practice e with US and French equipped tankers.
Pails in comparison to NATO these days both SSN and SSK, vessel like astute Virginia and 212/214 are way ahead technologically and in numbers, nato production of SSN’s is 5 a year Russia is 1 at best.
Martin, where do you get 5 a year from? I thought the US could just manage 2 Virginias, UK and France maybe one sub a year between them at best with current planned fleet strengths of 7 and 6…
Rather them than me gallivanting ’round the North Sea this time of year. Sick buckets on hand please
do we know if any of our F35b’s are being deployed to POW?
As the article just says F35s from across Nato will be involved its not exactly clear.
Surely we wouldnt send the carrier without some F35’s onboard with everything going on?
Apart from us and the USMC who else operates the
B?Italy have some and have done cross deck training, and Japan has ordered A&B though dont know if they have received an B’s yet.
It does say F35’s not a specific variant, could be ground based A’s involved also?
Don’t think they have the legs for a maritime ex.
Depends if there is AAR?
Probably Norwegian F35A’s. Denmark has also ordered F35 and Finland.
Italy, but there’s are stuck in reverse BOOM BOOM
Italians are getting some
As per Watchzero, but also South Korea has ordered the B as have Singapore.
No excuse not to. Even acting as Amphibous flagship it’s careless not carrying our own CAP in the current situation. Even just 8 UK F35s would do.
I think POW is in LPH format so no F35B but Apache maybe. Would be good to train with mixed aviation assets to really maximise CVF concept.
Any UK Lightnings or is that a silly question. Merlin and Wildcats from? Or are we once again providing a wonderful target for a Russian Corvette with a missile .
What huge difference would an F35 make to that scenario? They dont have air launched anti ship weapons.
It would very much increase the protection from anti-ship cruise missiles.
In what way exactly? Increased radar range if the F35s are in the air?
Hi James, organic air defence from a fifth generation fighter in the high North is huge. Look at the main threat to a carrier, it would be air launched heavy weight missiles, which the F35 would be perfect for countering, or long range ship and sub launched heavyweight anti ship missiles which again the F35 is happily capable of intercepting.
I would have put the possibility of being Torpedoed by a Submarine much higher up the list of threats than any Air Launched Weapons for an Aircraft Carrier, especially the POW in the High North.
Out of curiosity when has the F35 or any other plane ever intercepted and destroyed an incoming missile? At what range? Which AA missile accomplished this feat? Sorry but i have serious doubts. I never read anything that ever suggested this is currently an operational capability, certanly not in combat. Please enlighten me with a source.
FYI even surface based systems designed to intercept missiles are not 100% and they have much better radar systems and missiles than you could fit on a jet fighter.
Hi lord, there is plenty of open source information on how F35 is used as part of an integrated missile defence system. It’s part of the reason a true 5th generation fight at sea is so potent, because every fleet has an integrated air defence system.
I can’t do links as working. But there are plenty.
I can name quite a few. I think the most apt is where the US Navy’s carried out a trial, where the AEGIS ashore test “ship” was paired with a F35C. The F35 acted as the “ship’s” eyes for over the horizon targeting. The targets were the GQM-163 Coyote target missile. They were programmed to mimic cruise missies flying below 100ft. The F35 detected them and passed on the targeting information where the ship launched a SM2, then an ESSM to take out the targets.
The scenario was reversed. Where the ship detected the targets and passed on the targeting information to the F35. Which then used AMRAAMs to take out the targets. This type of scenario has also been done using E2C/D Hawkeye. But also with the USAF, where a F35A was teamed up with an F15E. The F35 detected the threats and passed on the data to the F15 to engage the targets. The F35 then provided target updates to the F15 for missile course correction. At no point did the F15 see the targets, as the engagement was conducted beyond visual range and the F15 being radar silent.
In the UK (though it was carried out in the States) we did a similar trial between a F35B and a Typhoon as part of the Project Bablefish program. Which was to test the F35s/Typhoons LInk-16 capability.
The occasions I have listed above, the aircraft missile used was the AMRAAM C and D. The US DoD did not publish interception ranges, as this could be used by opposing countries to give rough estimates of the missile’s capabilities, Though the engagements took place within visual range and beyond visual range. Meteor was not at FOC for the Bablefish program, so AMRAAM was used. Meteor has been used in other trials to take-out sea skimming and other aerial targets, predominately using Swedish Gripens. RAF Typhoons have done live fire exercises with Qinetiq drones and others.
RN did it in the first Gulf War, I know I was there. And our systems are much improved since then.
How?
Other than the radar it doesn’t add much to the party ATM.
When it does finally have an AShM then I agree it will create a sterile radius around a QEC.
This many ships needs fleet air defense. When a TU-95 or TU-22 rounds the corner at Murmansk, who will intercept it?
QRA. Norwegian, and RAF.
Norwegians have land based F35A that can do duty.
P8 overhead…..
I agree that ideally F35B should be onboard and may well be.
But we may well have another, shire based, plan given that POW is slated for close to shore work.
More is better and why not have organ air defence, especially if you want to manoeuvre away from shore based assets and you start to impact on time on patrol.
It also sends a message, a fifth generation fighter on a carrier in the high north is not a small thing.
Yes, but maybe this particular exercise doesn’t require F35B. When I went to sea on Invincible class carrier’s, we deployed many times without Harriers. Especially for exercises in the Artic Circle. The carrier will be tasked with generating helicopter cover to protect the Marines from Albion and act as the command and control platform. These exercises demonstrate the flexibility of the carrier’s. It’s not all TopGun with fast jets every time they depart Portsmouth.
That’s true, but it’s more the about instability at present. If it was an exercise in normal times I would agree it would be a waste potentially. But we now have to consider every deployment and movement of our armed forces as thought they and the U.K. are at existential risk. Who knows when it turns from an exercise to something else.
Its also about deterrent ( and carriers are a huge conventional deterrent) and Geopolitical optics at this time. The Russian government only really understands one thing and that’s brute force. Having 5th generation fighters operating in the high north, not only adds to the safety of a very big strategic asset but it sends a very big deterrent message. Putin thinks the western democracies are all bark we have to show the teeth or he’s going to cross a line ( he as clearly a psychopath of some description).
hi supportive Russia has a pretty good stock of air launched AshM, so having a CAP would help, after all one of the best way to kill a ship is via AirPower and having F35B removes that.
Another big threat is via ship and sub launched long range cruise missiles. Which again the F35B is not an insignificant anti cruise missile platform.
So in this case because of the threat ( big long range cruise missiles and air power) the F35B is a great defensive platform, even if it’s never used in its primary strike role.
I don’t understand how the F35B helps with sub launched cruise missiles?
That is the job of Ceptor / EW.
Hi supportive well, I read that Russia is moving to an approach of keeping its SSN and cruise missile boats at a longer range in safer waters targeting key assets at long ranges. So you can have the F35s out to a greater distance along likely threat axis. After all if the F35 can engage a threat out at 200 miles that’s safer that waiting for it to hit the range of your ship based systems. It just increases your defence in depth. Also if the Bear or other ISTAR asset has been keep at a distance by the Presence of an F35 CAP, they will never even get to launch a long range missile strike. So their SSNs would then be forced to play with an astute and T23 etc instead of staying safe and Russia no longer has the depth of nuclear boats to waste them trying to close with the type of ASW assets the RN has.
I agree in a full open water environment with you analysis.
It is about sanitising areas either with radar/sonar or reciprocal threat F35B/missiles ASTOR/helos missiles or torps.
And I agree about the Russians having limited numbers of SSN or even many decent ones.
In an ideal world we would load out with F35B to send a message.
Who knows there may be a UK/USMC component on board.
I have read a couple of articles on how they are working to lever the F35 to increase the effectiveness of integrated air defence system, like a fleets, I think they use it as a mobile sensor and data node. But beyond me but they are apparently even weaving it into ADM detection and intercept systems.
I’d be surprised if they were not.
Synthetic combination of sensors is the way to go: can’t fool all the sensors all the time.
Also you get a massive boost in range and sensitivity for a comparatively small spend.
The RN got it so very right, keeping after the prize of the carriers and F35. The RN may not have the depth of escorts it needs for all tasking all the time, but wherever it focuses its assets it is scary good.
I agree.
Just a shame the Mk41 VLS were not in the T45 to make it the super heavy hitter that it should always have been.
Yes, whats sad it’s most of the issues that the RN has are things that could have been managed with pretty small (considering national defence and government spend).
Mk41 on the T45 was a very cheap must: Finland had a costing for 4 Mk41 systems with spares and support contract for about £50 million, which is not even pocket change for HMG ( it’s behind the sofa on a Friday night sort of cash).
getting the final 2 T45s would have been about 2 billion, it’s nothing money for a capital asset that will last 30 years.
Then if they had started T26 at the right time we would now have hulls commissioned.
Ive never understood why HMG are so stingy around capital investment, when its not actually the great eater of money…after especially with the ships if they are built in the U.K. they get a huge slab of cash back in tax take…so it never actually costs the tax payer anywhere near what the in year spend says it does.
The problem was historically co tolling spend after green light.
If you look at County -> T42 -> T45 the blowout was always the spend on developing the new systems to go on the ship. The ships themselves less so.
Now there is a model where the ship is the ship and the systems are the systems it is easier to focus minds. If T31 delivers then more will be coming.
Hope RAF learn that with Tempest.
I think I see what you mean supportive, so it’s actually a complete shift then.
T42 and T45 were essentially system driven and hull was secondary…so all the cost was sunk into making the perfect AAW system and not how many a AAW hulls do we need.
T31 ( and T26 ?) was more about getting the hull Numbers we need with within the budge and picking systems off the Shelf as we can afford them.
Is that the way ? I had not really twigged it was that profound a change.
The previous thinking was all about the role of the ‘integrator’
The old CMS ADAWS etc were very specific in what they could talk to and massive. So the project integrator had the last laugh on cost and the headache of making it work!!
Newer systems are all Ethernet/fibre based so it is more flexible and about software modules.
T26 is really an old procurement model build.
T31 is the new procurement model taken to the nth degree. To prove a point.
That said the cost of R&D and getting #1 right is always far higher and there are always cost savings from those lessons. For instance POW was faster in build than QEC. So it would be right to say that hills 7&8 for T45 would have been way cheaper than hull 1. However for T45 RN was given £6Bn and as the ship and missile/radar got more complex so did the R&D and hull #1 costs. It would be fair to say that R&D ate about £1.5Bn of the T45 budget so actually they were not that expensive…..
Cheers supportive, interesting, the RD costs of T45 is pretty astonishing really.
The development of Sampson and its integration into the CMS was one part and also the ASTOR missile integration was another.
Sampson is unique in how light it is so it can go that high up. Also the resolution it can get to.
But it is an example of pursuing excellence maybe a notch further than needed. That said we now have the best of the best for AAW.
Yes it’s great, I just wish we made sure we had a 1 for 1 replacement for the T42.
once the RN up the number anti air missiles and add Mk41 they will be superb ASuW warships as well as AAW escorts.
let’s hope as we move to development and production of a type 83 we can look to up the hull numbers.
No not really… You have two white elephants with no air group. And two deployable submarines at anytime and one will always be tied to the white elephant. You have one world beating astute class to cover the rest of the globe.
How does the RN only have 2 deployable submarines exactly?
Last time I checked the UK was in possession of F35B’s which would constitute a fighter air wing plus a sizeable number of helicopters of varying types.
It does add the ability to shoot down the missiles. The Ukrainians have taken down a few missiles with the flankers and possibly mig 29s. Obviously there are probably more cases but only a few have been confirmed at this time.
I imagine the f-35 is capable of tracking and hitting the missiles.
Anyway we are not at war with russia and most of the Russian surface fleet is in the med and Black Sea region.
It’s not the scenario James. It’s the fact that we have a super carrier going into harms way without(?) any aircraft. As for your other point, they should have. Currently we are going to have to wait up to ten years for the ‘planes and the missiles. Not good enough.
I agree they definitely should have, so should the surface ships. If anything this situation should trigger additional spending on the terrible holes we have in capabilities.
Has anyone found out if it is sailing with any F35B’s on board?
Russian CV/CVN doctrine is to launch anti ship missiles from Tu-22 backfires. Usually 200+KM out. What will protect against that? F-35’s.
CAP wouldn’t be that far out given the loiter times without AAR.
What will protect against it is the T45’s which are designed specifically for that role or am I missing something here?
Think what James is suggesting is that Merlin AEW picks up approaching TU22s and F35s are despatched to intercept the launch platforms before the T45 has to deal with the 6 or 8 incoming AshW.
The great thing is she doesn’t need the searoom of Cats and Traps and can hug the coast or duck into fjords if required. Why expose her to unnecessary danger.
This is an artic exercise not a going to war fleet. If things were to change and we suddenly went in a war with Russia if the f35b were needed they would be flown out with voyager immediately to the carrier.
We do not know the training needs of the aircrews at this time and if being stuck on a carrier is actually a good use of their time. They could be doing training that’s far more useful to there roles.
If they are needed they will be carried. If they aren’t they won’t.
Any Russian heavy aircraft is known when it takes off and is picked up on radar etc a long way from any threat zone.
I would much prefer a bigger reinforcement of Poland etc with aircraft. I’m starting to think moving into the west of Ukraine as “peace keepers” should be done. Leaving a gap between where russians are and providing a safe zone. If Russia Then chooses to attack they are only speeding up their plans of attacking nato anyway.
Perhaps 50 miles as a start. Somewhere civilians can shelter
With some additional land-based protection, a very useful interim piece of kit for RAF Typhoons.
Range: Well beyond 100 km
“The firing also showed Marte ER’s turbojet engine behaviour was excellent for both “in-flight start time” and thrust level. This firing was the last one in the development path of Marte ER, which will enter into operation early next year.
MARTE ER represents the 3rd generation within the MARTE family of missile systems and is derived from MARTE MK2/S which is already in service with the Italian Navy on its NFH90 and AW101 helicopters.
MARTE ER missile is going to be integrated on Eurofighter TYPHOON and other fast jets.
Using its mission planning software, the missile carried out a long-range sea-skimming flight. It made three main turns and a pop-up/dive manoeuvre during the last turn. A straight segment then followed up to the RF seeker activation point.
Target identification, selection and tracking was extremely fast and proportional guidance started soon after. During its terminal phase, the missile successfully performed its anti-Close-in Weapon Systems manoeuvre, hitting the target just above the waterline at high transonic speed. This confirmed the outstanding effectiveness of Marte ER’s terminal guidance with its new solid-state RF Seeker.”
https://militaryleak.com/2021/12/15/mbdas-marte-er-anti-ship-missile-has-successful-final-test-firing-in-sardinia/
“MARTE ER missile is going to be integrated on Eurofighter TYPHOON and other fast jets.
MARTE ER’s design takes into account that MARTE MK2/S is already qualified and installed on these two platforms. This offers the following advantages:
Same mechanical, functional & electrical helicopter interfaces
No platform hardware changes are required to manage the MARTE ER missile, only software changes to the Store Management System (SMS) are required to manage longer range performance.
The helicopter, with the new version of SMS software, is able to operate both MARTE MK2/S and MARTE E”
https://militaryleak.com/2021/12/15/mbdas-marte-er-anti-ship-missile-has-successful-final-test-firing-in-sardinia/
We really do need some form of quick off the shelf air launches heavyweight anti ship missile. It’s a bit of a hole in capability at present.
We most certainly do.
“Carrier strike capability is on track to achieve FOC by December 2023. By the end of 2022, there will be sufficient UK F-35s and trained aircrew to support routine carrier deployments of up to 12 jets.
Maintenance and training demands mean this is cannot sustain back-to-back deployments and must be carefully paced. The Lightning Force is still regenerating after CSG21 and it will be instructive to see how many jets can be mustered for operations in response to events in Ukraine. FOC for F-35 is scheduled for 2025, at which point two squadrons of up to 24 jets will be available for planned carrier embarkations.
The planned entry into service date for the SPEAR-3 medium-range stand-off missile of 2025 is likely to slip to 2026 as there are limited resources available for the integration work. To a large extent, MBDA is dependent on Lockheed Martin’s software development prioritisation for integration projects, despite the UK being the sole Tier-1 partner in the F-35 programme. Until the F-35B can carry SPEAR-3, UK carrier strike is somewhat blunted and dependent on dropping laser-guided bombs, typically requiring aircraft to get within lethal range of surface-to-air missile systems.
In 2019 the MoD awarded a demonstration contract for an electronic warfare variant of the SPEAR-3 missile. There is no funded plan to procure SPEAR-EW, even though this is a stated requirement and a credible Suppression of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD) capability is needed if striking well-defended targets.
In the longer term, it is planned that FCASW could be carried (externally) by F-35B, providing a long-range standoff shipping/land-attack capability but this is will not be available before the early 2030s at least.
Integration of the Meteor BVR air-air missile with F-35 is not now anticipated to be completed until 2027 and there is a possibility that integration pressures in the programme may incur further delays because of challenges in the wider F-35 programme.
The F-35 can already carry up to 6 very effective AIM-120 AMRAAM but Meteor offers considerably superior range and performance.”
https://www.navylookout.com/delivery-of-many-critical-royal-navy-capabilities-still-years-away/
You bloody beauty!!! Wakey, wakey, MOD!
How about an Matre E-ER! 😁
No excuses and with a land-based option too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd_L1Xcr7zM
It’s useful to have forces covering the north of Norway, the Baltic & Eastern Europe while Russia attacks Ukraine. If only we had a cunning plan to intervene in Ukraine!
It could swing down into the Baltic on exercise on the proviso of deterring aggression against Estonia down to Poland.
Or just attack Belarus if they enter the fighting.
So I’m readingg the BBC News twitter site and the top article is about Wallace saying he rejects calls for NATO a no fly zone over the Ukraine.
this french man tweets shame at Boris and the Uk.
I reply stating that actually the Uk has done more for Ukraine than most others, which included sending 2000 MBTLAWs prior to hostilities began which was castigated by the likes of France and Germany as not helpfull.
He in turn replied that France had been sending kit and linked in an article from Al J (28/02/22) which stated france was sending kit Kyiv’s way.
I posted an actual news article from France 24 (26/02/22) which explained that France had started sending defensive equipment and was still debating to send offensive kit.
He blocked me.
France was a little late, clearly, but not useless.
-1.2B€ unlocked at first
-More than 80 tons of medical supplies.
-A batch of weapons but we dont know what (Probably stocks of Milan/Eryx)
-Another 300M€ unlocked
-Macron was also the phone secreatary of Zelensky at the begenning, even if completely useless:
Hermes,
Good evening, not the point i was addressing, he clearly thought that the UK was being shameful and when I pointed out that actually to much huffing and puffing from the political elites of both France and Germany the Uk had done the right thing in helping the Ukraine before the Balloon went up. I’ve worked alongside the FL so I know that France is a good partner to have on your side, and unlike others I don’t care much for slagging France off. But my post was directed at one individual and not the French Republic. Well ok, I may not have any time for the midget. But I do like France as a nation.
We do seem to have done more than most nations when it comes to helping the Ukraine.
I also keep seeing questions, especially from journalists, asking why aren’t we enforcing a no-fly zone. It seems like unless we want to start a wider war accross Europe, we can’t do that. Maybe, if Russia didn’t have nukes, we could think about it, but it would still escalate things a lot.
I was saying we should have had a no fly zone a week before Putin stuck is oar in. That was the lost opportunity sorry to say. Need to keep ahead of the bar steward.
Yes, a good point Jonno but might have been seen as NATO aggression on Russia’s doorstep and we’d be in the fight with them already so to speak.
Let’s hope nature turns the sprinklers on and this huge bloody convoy gets bogged down and well and truly picked off!
Sadly France has been less than stellar. As I’ve posted elsewhere a France24 article quoted a French general stating that ‘European armies are poor’ and intimated that France couldn’t send 2000 machine guns as that would be 2000 less for (the French army….) I mean WTF!
As for weapons pretty much everyone is declaring what they are sending but France oh no….i wonder why.
France has form for making others pay ….here I refer to the EU bailout of Frances banks in Greece and the Lebanon issue when th esilos blew up in port. Macron acts the statesman promising France is with them….but if you look at who footed the bill it was the international community. I strongly suspect this is more of the same.
And as for Putin/Macron meeting…..
Putin: (waves a hand)….’microphones off now’.
Macron: slumps in his chair (trying to relax from Puti’s death stare of last 6 hours)
Putin: “No. 3!’
Macron: sits bolt upright in chair! eyes wide. “Yes No. 1!”
Putin: ‘No. 3 ! you KNOW the price of failure! …..DO NOT fail me”
Macron: (starts hyperventilating) “YES No. 1 !”
Putin: Smiles and starts stroking the cat on his lap……
We have spend billions of € in Mali for nothing and for years while UK was cutting its military and stop its opex.
A lot of our AT4 stocks, and probably even Milan has been reduced with 20y of opex using them a lot.
I dont mention the MMP, noway he will go in Ukraine and in all cause, we dont have much for the moment.
Only Milan and Eryx can be sends in a good quantity, maybe some Mistral too.
Sending machinegun is a problem, not only for us, because if you send machinegunor assault rifle, you must send a LOT of ammunition, because Ukraine doesnt have much NATO rounds.
I dont think they really need much personnal weapons…
And if they need, we should go through another country to send russian stuff.
But its true, we have a lack of stocks of ammunitions, its a hard fact.
We have also a lack of fighters since we are selling our Rafale before the new ones are ready.
Since years we are ordering them with a JIT philosophy, to make “economies”.
Its a shame.
If post Ukraine there is substantially more funding for the French Armed Forces how would you see the French Fleet grow, if at all ?.
Right now the question is to reinforce our patrol boats and probably corvette (From the EPC), especially in Pacific against China illegal fishers.
We need more frigates (or DD), I can only hope for more FDI (+5) with at least 32 VLS.
2 SSN should be a priority too.
In a perfect world we should work on the FREMM replacement with a much more armed design, especially with the FC/ASW taking some VLS slots, and the laser defences systems.
I would be happy to see something like 64 VLS for 8-24 FC/ASW, 32-48 ASTER 15/30NT, 8-16 slots for Dual/Quad packed small range missile, as a base weapons collection.
But sadly, La Royale has never been really a priority in France.
So probably some corvette/patrol boat and not a single FREMM/FDI or SSN.
In fact I would be happy to scrap the PANG (CVN) and build 6-10 good DD and 2 SSN in place of him.
Interesting thanks,i know numbers aren’t always a good indication of Capability but regarding Escorts if the MN had built all of the original 17 FREMM,2 x Horizon,5 x FDI,5 X La Fayette,?? X EPC as well as the POM OPV Programme that would form quite a substantial Fleet.
Yes, it was a good fleet, but politicians destroyed her.
Like the PA2 based on the QE class.
I think that will have been heavily affected by the German announcement, with hints that the Germans are coming back full behind SCAF (ie Franco-German-Italian-Spanish version of FCAS), where France was getting twitchy.
Germany will be wanting imo to find a more prominent place in the European mainland MIC, and counterbalance France. DE are still mercantilists.
Listening to a German commentator, I had not realised that the German Parliament had to specifically approve any spending items above 25m Euro.
Link to commentary I found helpful by Military Aviation History Youtube channel. Christopher Berg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B4njJatAhA
25 minutes, and some things I did not know about how procurement works in Germany, and on the wrenching politics involved.
Hermes wrote:
”We have spend billions of € in Mali for nothing and for years while UK was cutting its military and stop its opex.”
Im sorry but how can you bring up the U.K. cutting its military as an excuse for the French slow start to supplying the Ukraine. France went into Mail in 2013, full time in 2014. Since 2014, the U.K. has deployed troops in
Mali
Syria
Iraq
Sudan
Somalia
Afghan
and on a lesser standing
Estonia
The U.K. still outspends each and every European country when it comes to defence. The U.K. has helped the French with air trooping, supply runs and refuelling regards it’s operation in Mali. It has been supporting France on the ground for the past year with actual troops
France gets a lot of things right regards defence spending Scorpion, Griffon, Jaguar , so excusing the slow start to support the Ukraine on the U.K.s defence cuts is a cheap shot. Oh and by the way, Ukraine uses 5.56mm and has done for a while for its Fort rifles.
By all means berate the U.K. when it gets things wrong, but not as an smoke screen in which to excuse Paris when it messes up.
Dont get me wrong, Im absolutely not trying to slap UK with this.
A lot of what I mean vanish with my translate 😮
What I tried to say, UK Military was for years in an economic state and reduced a lot of its activity, and by extent its spending and stocks consumption.
While France, even if the budget was not bigger, was engaged in Mali, and, even with the support of allies (And we had loved your Chinooks), this operation was pretty costly for its size (Very hard on mechanics and fuel consumption).
As for:
“The U.K. still outspends each and every European country when it comes to defence.”
Countries doesnt have the same calculation for its spending, from France calculation, we have the same level for UK/France/DE.
And with the latest announce, probably Germany will outspend both of us.
” Oh and by the way, Ukraine uses 5.56mm and has done for a while for its Fort rifles.”
Thanks for information.
But I dont think it can be a gift to send them our old FAMAS from the reserve’s stocks hum…
What’s the MMP, please?
The only thing I have is Mons. Macron President, and I don’t think you mean that.
(Aha: Missile Moyenne Portée – more like US Javelin on range and price than UK NLAWs.)
Looking at MGs, I see that Belgium (!) has sent 5000 (!!) according to the ukdef article. Unless they mean fully auto assault rifles or similar. That’s enough for a substantial chunk of Ukraine armed forces or defence perimeters.
But don’t these also use standard NATO ammunition, which can be bought off the shelf, surely?
Never mind.
The facts should never get in the way of a good story?
You challenged the accepted and settled French jingoist view that everyone looks up to her.
it’s not like any NATO nation has come out and challenged that there should be a no fly zone. It is as fare as I’m aware the policy of every NATO nation that they should in no way send their armed forces anywhere inside of Ukraine at all.
It’s been reported increase activity around Murmansk, and an increase of his SSBNs and SSNs being readied for sea.
Where did you see that report?
An intelligence assessment report. Don’t ask the detail is sensitive but the general assessment is not as generally a report goes out to shipping in the area, Faroe Icland gap.
Any references or links?
Media driven if they Start a Tractor in Russia its a state of the art Missile system. its why they are winning so easy with all there wonder missiles and weapons. if you feed on the shite they produce more
Interesting, though I heard yesterday that several SSBN’s had just returned to port after the naval excercises.
Maybe Going off to PLAY is not a good choice about now
Play no.
Form up and be ready to go, yes.
Why do you think Russia wanted Mistral x2 – it changes local balance of power.
So there was vote at the UN regards Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine. Interesting to see how so many of those who abstained receive lots of aid from the West. Maybe its time to cut these freeloaders free. (looks at Pakisitan the biggest recipient of UK aid followed by Bangladesh)
https://i.postimg.cc/wjcF9SDn/lp.jpg
Aside from current events, Pakistan is the biggest neon sign labelling our foreign aid as useless – aid is supposed to be ‘soft power’, but Pakistan is a nation that routinely persecutes people on the basis of religion, the death penalty for apostasy is still on the books, women’s rights are non existent, they harbour terrorists (in fact their secret service are essentially a terror organisation) – can anyone explain what our money has done there?
More currently let’s not forget Pakistan signed a new trade deal with Russia on the day of the invasion – so they ‘abstained’ at the UN, but are in actual fact an unequivocal supporter of the invasion.
Hopefully if our aid does stay at stupid levels it can be directed to Ukraine.
Pakistan was also having a leaders summit, visiting Russia as the invasion started and did nothing other than continue the summit for the next two days working on closer ties with Russia. The west really does need to focus its energy on potential strategic allies. The internal aid budget is tool for the British government, not charity and its uses should reflect our strategic aims and go towards nations that can be geopolitical partners,
What I found interesting was were the abstentions were. as a lot of the African nations that abstained don’t have significant ties with Russia. Russia is after all a Region power that has a large international footprint due to its size and does not have significant influence in Africa. But China has a lot of influence in Africa and you have to wonder if the abstentions where more about aligning with China, than an support by inaction for Russia ?
You actually hint at an interesting point about the aid budget being a tool for the British government – I would actually say the British political class:
My brother does the IT for an office building in Hertfordshire, a building shared by a corporate law firm, a commodities trading company and a charity (involved in consultancy for international aid) and the part of the car park reserved for the charity makes lawyers and coms traders look like paupers; and inside the office is like a luxury spa…of 5 directors of that ‘charity’, one is the wife of an MP and two are siblings of MPs. ‘Charity’ consultancy is the go to job for the families of politicians (I wonder why the 0.7% was enshrined in law?…I just can’t imagine the reason.)
There are reports that China knew about Ukraine in advance – in the long run though, I do think it is more likely that China will celebrate Russia’s demise, they’ll give them just enough help to walk off a cliff; but the point is China is now the real enemy and the west’s fondness for cheap plastic nonsense is essentially buying our own demise.
Hi David yes that’s a good point and what it hints at is that the British political class is not completely as one with the nation ( this was what happened at the time of revolutionary France, the ruling class had more in common with the wider European ruling class than they did there own people, hence the revolution). In the modern world I think Brexit had the same root cause ( people perceived our ruling class had more in common with European elites that the U.K. people and they were right).
I also completely agree in regards to China and I have on many occasions commented that I think Russia has made a great mistake in being to close to China ( they will probably end up as almost a chinese client state at some point). Trouble is I think they will have no choice now but to become the junior partner in a strategic alliance with China.
In regards to China they have been running a highly successful mercantile strategy against the west for years and the wealth and political classes accepted this as part of their Neoliberal view. This will need to change as western democracies will struggle against a powerful mercantile block with an unlimited cheap workforce and vast access to raw materials.
The aid budget needs to be used to combat Parts of this chinese Strategy and we need to secure the raw materials for western nations. Personally I think the west tighter needs a combination budget for this. As well as a shared plan to counter chinese production and Protect it’s own production and markets. It’s a backwards step, but unless we are as happy with chinese hedgmony as US hedgmony ( and I will go with US hedgmony or EU hedgmony all the time as the U.K. can live as a fee independent sovereign state in those worlds).
Hi Farouk, and South Africa, Vietnam too. In thought the former would be in for sure and the later here was tilting more to the West?
With Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, I’d imagine Britain would still want to have strong relations and some influence with all these otherwise it’s all left to others like China.
Vietnam is deeply disappointing. It shows too much Chinese influence there with the govt. The average Vietnamese have a deep historical antipathy to China and Russian tourists are regarded as miserable SOB’s by those Vietnamese who have to deal with them.
Interestingly US, UK and Aussies arewell regarded so I’m told by a Vietnamese bloke I’ve known for twenty years ( too young for Vietnam he did 5 years in army mostly fighting Khmer Rouge).
Agreed, was quite shocked to see Vietnam choose that route.
Are they having better relations with China of late as they certainly have had a lot of frictions with China in recent times?
They still get a lot of their weapons from Russia and still a Commi state. The people are great (as they are in Russia) but those at the top are not as we see.
Certainly agree the people are great, its a lovely place to visit too!
Pakistan are trying some half baked strategy of not aligning themselves with anyone and doing business with everyone. Great in theory but a Country without a concience is not going to do well. Might be better to spend a little effort sorting out their differences with India.
Reading some of the comments from Indians on twitter, India isn’t much better in regards to having a conscience, they expect the West to back them against China yet many alao seem to support Russia and have an anti-western bias. Not to mention, in recent years India has come across as increasingly jingoistic.
.
That just means they are both getting it wrong. This is a watershed moment. It is possible to do the right thing and vote in the UN against tyrants and appreciate that whilst you can do business with any country that business must stop, if only briefly, whilst that country mends it ways should it do things which go against the new world order. Putin is a bully and the world just stood up to him. OK there are a few on the sidelines looking puzzled but countries will catch on.
Trying to follow the Indian model in the world basically.
Maybe but I think that model is out of date. Russia now controls nothing. It cannot even bully one of it’s old former republics. Countries feel oddly free to speak out. Maybe they will nuke everyone but I doubt it. I suspect if a country wants to do business however big they are they will need to have regard for how the buyer regards them.
On the odds of nuclear sadly Putin probably stands the best chance, he has the biggest land mass to try avoid being blown to pieces!
Maybe but when he emerges from his bunker he will have nothing to rule over. His dream will have evaporated. He will have nothing and neither will those that supported him. All those down the chain of command will have lost their families and will possibly be dead themselves. Cannot see the motivation for using the strategic option or for obeying that order. That said it is always possible. As for best chance – well everyone loses don’t they?
He may have prepared for sanctions, But I dont think he expected how Russia in just a week has been cast out into the wilderness. I mean
Banking – Cut
TV- Cut
Airlines – Cut
Trade – Cut
Sport – Cut
Culture – Cut
He has turned Russia into a Pariah state and from what I have seen , a lot of Russians are not happy with him.
Yes. To be honest I was expecting a stronger contribution from the Russians who generally contribute on this site. That is interesting in itself.
The Russian people must realise that they choose their own leaders.You cannot withhold the truth from the public forever – it will slowly seep out. I wonder how Russians will react.
Even just goods people want, look how many companies are now refusing to supply Russia.
The population cant be shielded from whats going on when they can buy the stuff they want let alone even just spend money that is now virtually worthless.
So Macron has now come out and said European nations have to pay a price for freedom and that the french defence budget will be increased over planned increase ( and France has been putting in planned increases of around 4,5% year on year since 2020). He’s also called for European energy dependence.
Its a very significant statement from France not such a see change as Germany, but then France has always taken defence more seriously than most other Western European nations apart from the U.K. ( it’s interesting that Europe’s two biggest post imperial powers have similar views on defence spending and investment).
One interesting titbit is also around the BBCs role, it’s set up a short wave broadcasting service for Ukraine and parts of Russia to counter Russia. Disinformation. I know many have a bit of a hang up over the BBC ( if you’re conservative and on the right they are bias socialists and if your a socialist they are a centre right, government mouthpiece). One clear thing is an independent national broadcaster can be used as an independent information source that support our nation as a leading liberal democracy ( well done BBC in this case you have got it right).
What frequency please?
15735 kHz from 16.00-18.00 GMT and 5875 kHz from 22.00-00.00 GMT
Ta!
Macron is also asking for the European Army to be formed. Quell Surprise!
I know, who saw that bit coming. 😂😂😂
Quelle !
Bugger!
Now that the EU has actually spent its own money purchasing equipment the European Defence Force to hit the news was only a matter of time. Played perfectly into Macron’s agenda.
Absolutely spot on. This is entirely a war of information/disinformation.
i cannot avoid feeling sad when reading of an RN batttle group that only consists of two ships and probably one sub. Even in 1990 such a flotilla would consist of carrier, FRA multiple frigates and destroyers, and multiple subs and a RAF nimrod.
Look at how the yanks screeen their flat tops, then look at our efforts. heartbreaking.
A RN CVA group consists of 2 FFGs, 2DDGs, a SSNK, RFA plus allied contingents(2DDGs/FFGs last time). But we are far less capable to escort our own assets with just 17-19 escorts tops in the fleet, several of those in refit & thus unable to deploy many task groups or take losses. 30+ escorts would allow us to do what we need better, though we’re always vulnerable relying so much on maritime trade/supplies as an island nation. Merchant shipping needs protecing too, which makes the current escort numbers unacceptable.
I believe USN CBG have 3 to 4 escorts too.
Comparing to the USN is pointless. Compare to other nations BG. Which are where?
Yes, defence cuts have gone too far. It is what it is.
your both right of course Daniele and Frank, I just remember the 1990 defence review which reported the RN needs betyween 19 and 21 destroyers and frigates just to protect UK domestic waters alone, excluding overseas commitments
Yes, that was when the cuts should have stopped.
Media do not highlight enough so no public interest and the idiots responsible get away with the 95,97,2004,2009,2010,2015 cuts.
They’re more interested in parties. Or were.
It is pojntless to compare to other BG, that don’t tell us if it is enough. What matters is to compare to enemy forces that can threat the BG.
But will we not be on own, we will be part of a US led battle group,
Was anyone else’s first thought when they read the headline that they were starting the Christmas posts a bit early this year? 😅
So came across this just now:
https://i.postimg.cc/vBYjwMKq/scot.png
I know I shouldnt laugh but this was in the comments:
That women is as MAD as Vlad. Russian Navy use the St Andrews flag of course but in reverse to Scotland. Daft Scots Gov showing the wrong flag again. Send her over to the front, the Russian Army will soon go home
You and your comment pretty much sums up what happens on this site time after time, interesting debate and topic polluted by unrelated politically biased rubbish. MAD as Vlad on dear…how pathetic.
US Navy recovers crashed F35C from South China sea ocean floor https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/03/u-s-navy-recovers-f-35c-from-south-china-sea/