HMS Spey, a River class offshore patrol vessel, has departed to Australia, taking on supplies and fuel for the next leg of her Pacific patrol.
The Royal Navy say here that the vessel used her time in Australia to work with the Royal Australian Navy and share training and experiences of being an overseas patrol vessel deployed from the UK for up to five years.
“Alongside her sister ship HMS Tamar, Spey is the Royal Navy’s permanent presence in the Indo-Pacific region and lessons learned from her maiden deployment were shared with the crews of HMAS Arafura and HMAS Wollongong. The Australian patrol ships carry out tasks similar to that of Spey and Arafura’s commanding officer and several Royal Australian Navy officers spent time on the British ship.”
Lieutenant Gareth Senior, Marine Engineer Officer on HMS Spey, was quoted as saying:
“It was good to have our Royal Australian Counterparts on board and give them the opportunity to explore our ship and department. It gave them an opportunity to see what their future offshore patrol vessels will be like and also share experiences of operating in the South Pacific region.”
Another lot of great work from the navy on the other side of the world. Hopefully the navy will get some more pictures of the rivers in the pacific soon. Maybe some nice island shots, big seas etc.
MS, Pure genius! The copy for the next RN recruiting campaign practically writes itself! Photos of Tamar and Spey docked in exotic South Sea and AUS/NZ ports of call (e.g. Tahiti, etc.), Trent in the Med (e.g. anywhere on the Riviera, Spanish coastline, etc.) and the OPV (name?) assigned to the Carribean (take your pick, like shooting fish in a barrel). Be certain to include significant footage of beach hardbodies and concern re recruiting quotas should be permanently in the rearview mirror! 😉 Actually, just realized any blue water navy has an inherent advantage over other services in terms of… Read more »
Yeah throw in some pics shooting some guns off and nice plate of food with a beer on a ship. Job done.
“A” beer? Your use of the definite article is concerning… I’m sure, the zero article is more appropriate…. and then there is shore leave from the jailed QEC sailor in Florida… Asking “Have you phoned the Queen?” Anyone know the reply?
“The” is a “definitive article” whilst “a” and “an” are indefinite articles. Did you mean “a beer” as a singular is far more accurately represented by “beers”
Or a nice comparison of how many of the crew of eagle ended up in local jails vs the crew of Elizabeth. it’s my understanding that the Eagles visit to Cape Town in May-June of 67 was more like an international incident that a port stop, and was an RN high point in getting pissed, breaking laws and general run ins with locals. A mix of a long cruise, sitting of Aden for ages, Witblits, Apartheid and an average sailors willingness to enter any shanti town for the potent whiff of strong alcohol or make sure the black crew members… Read more »
Curious about UK rules/regs re off-duty uniform wear and appearance. Realize RN have option to wear a beard, don’t recall ever meeting any RAF sporting one. RM, Army? USAF strictly regulated, at least in prior years.
RAF recently had a rule change allowing beards. Army is allowed on relgious, or medical grounds or for certain jobs.
Thanks for update. BTW, recommend RN participation in Fleet Week in NYC, if feasible. Once upon a time, epic nonstop debauchery, er…party. Uncertain re ROEs post COVID, Believe lads/lasses would have to be extremely obnoxious to even merit a sideways glance by authorities. New Orleans had/possibly has something similar, around Mardi Gras?
Sounds daft but that dazzle scheme makes the Rivers look a bit ‘meaner’.
Please don’t use the term “meaner” to trigger yourself about its lack of meanness (lack of lots of big guns and missiles).
Know what you mean. The paint job sends a message, ‘ in case you were wondering, I am a warship’. Love it.👍
Think they might be already meaner than the Aussies vessels they’re exercising with.
Yes, but not as heavily armed as their successors which will, it seems have a 40mm
https://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/ships-boats-craft/future/opv
Actually their successors are getting 25mm cannon as an interim, the 40mm having been cancelled.
Interesting. Thx. 80m, 2x50cal, crane, 25mm, 2 diesels, flight deck but no hangar.….River Batch 1.5?
They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 😉
An upgrade in sea keeping and able to give more humanitarian help, better endurance. Good move by the Australians.
The 25mm is interim, only temporary until another 40mm is selected.
Trying to remember where I read it, but I swear I saw somewhere that the Arafuras can’t actually take a full sized helicopter on their flight deck, just light UAV’s.
Not a guarantee of the truth but the wiki entry for Arafuras days UAV capability.
This article states that the deck can land a helo but that helicopter capability has not been specified.
https://sldinfo.com/2019/12/an-update-on-the-new-offshore-patrol-vessel/
From what I understand the 40mm originally selected wasn’t what it was advertised to be, so it was canned.
Hopefully it’s only the first few ships that end up with the 25mm from the retiring Armidale class PBs before they receive the permanent main gun.
I understand the original gun selected was a 40mm from Leonardo & turned out it did not actually exist in completed form. ie it was a work in progress.
Plenty of capacity on a B2 if/when needed, though. Plus 25 knots.
In the mean*time, more cost effective for UK as they are. Australia is on East frontline.
* use of today’s buzzword
Read once that the 25 knots is significant in that R2 can keep pace with a carrier task force.
In still waters, probably! Also as littoral escort, possibly. In any form of seaway, the carriers are going to leave most things standing, even though they’re not the fastest of their ilk.
Liked your erstwhile ‘yaak’ force, though more a Tibetan speciality. Certainly no problem keeping up with that. ☺
😊
Shhhhhhh FFS…!😆
😆 My bad Daniele.
We want CAMM and 57mm and a 40mm and at least 8 heavyweight anti ship missiles…. these things need to out fight a carrier battle group.
Sounds like you want a B2 -> T31 conversion kit? I could understand if post T31 RN standardised on 40mm that change makes sense and adding 6 Sea Ceptor makes sense for Gulf activities where ranges are short and the radar horizon is fine. Adding much more and it is a frigate lite…..which will only reduce the pressure to build T32 fast. What we need are more T31/32 with VLS to give the fleet mass and teeth. This is all very well for flag waving and anti drugs / piracy etc but is a pure place keeper in terms of… Read more »
To be honest, I would not even stick a 40mm on one of these. That starts to make it look I bit to warship like, then you get the RN asked to do just that little bit more with it ( it’s got a medium gun you knowI think some form of retractable/telescopic/temp hanger would be useful for If they are needed for the North Atlantic tasking ( a small ship flight is good for disaster support and chasing drug smugglers). Other than that that I can see them having use when more autonomous platforms come on line. As you… Read more »
It is more about defensive weapons than anything else.
Ceptor would more be for large drones which *could* carry missiles that out range the 40mm?
It is a very uncertain world we are in now and who knows which nut job government will take a pop, or sponsor someone to take a pop, at a vulnerable grey funnel line vessel? I’m more thinking Iran or South Korea than Russia or China.
I take it you ment North Korea. But yes, the 40mm has some AA ability & reasonable range otherwise, while still staying in the OPV bracket. If things go bad, you will basically have to fight with what you have or is easy to add. A 2,000t ship will be utilised, come what may. A 2,000t ship with just a 30mm is not the ship to be on if this happens. This is the danger of building light frigate sized warships but under arming them to the n’th degree. A ship that size will be a target. The argument that… Read more »
Sorry for my typo. Yes, I did mean NK. My apologies to our SK allies! In time of war, needs must etc and the very least you can do is to protect the vessel properly or make it a porcupine: not worth the risk? The B2’s are too close to a warship to not be pressed into service given tiny fleet numbers: although T31 is really the umbrella escort for RFA. However, B2 can only be defensive not offensive. If you are going to send a ship into harms way there is an obligation to do what can be done… Read more »
Heartily agree. The current B2 armament though, means it can’t actually defend itself, let alone anyone else. The B2 is simply too big to be ignored, because a ship that size can be turned into a problem (to the opposition) given time. So if things go bad, it will be on the ‘sink now if possible’ list. A 40mm & an add when needed containerised CAMM system gives you a basic low threat long range escort. Something useful if required without breaking the bank if it’s not. If the T31 is escorting the RFA, who is escorting the civilian tankers,… Read more »
Agree, especially if pressed into service for convoy duty of high value merchant vessels (e.g. LGN tankers, grain/foodstuff cargo ships, etc ). Always assumed Rivers would be recalled to UK shipyards for wartime mods, but there may be an (admittedly, non ideal) option to utilize forward bases (e g , Bahrain, DG, RAN or USN bases/shipyards, etc.) for mods to weapons, sensors and CMS. Gunbuster, NAB, possibly daveyb, are in better position to comment re feasibility.
…LNG…🙄
Wartime mods need to be really easy (eg adding a containerised system) or well planned (& unless you are looking at WW timeframes, that’s not going to happen). Changing main guns (if linked to the CMS as a 40mm usually would be) or radars etc (also linked to the CMS) takes time (if you can even get them – remember these tend to be build to order items & you are likely not the only customer at this stage & the building company (regardless of who owns it) is still subject to national priorities), is likely to be a one… Read more »
Yes that’s a good point. Possibly this is where a really good set of drones with weapons could come in handy.
Personally I think the world is starting to get a bit do destabilised and risky for these vessels to be transiting and working anywhere east of the med and North Sea.
And 32 hypersonic ballistic missiles, 4 laser guns, 6 F35b and full hanger, 24 naval strike missiles, a Sampson radar mast, towed array, 8 heavyweight torpedo launchers, 2 x 5 inch guns, 12 tomahawks and a fart gun
And a partridge in a pear tree…
Hey, you stole my first response to proposed (presumably in best) conversion kit! 😂😁
…jest…
You started it Andy, so I want at least four Trident D5 tubes and spud guns for all the crew…
Yes all that..apart from the fart gun, I think you will find those less than lethal weapons can be a legal nightmare.
Then again, I thought most RN threw not shells but, tatties… and at each other when passing.
QECs would could carnage on any other RN ships 🙂
I wonder how many spuds it would take to sink a rivers2
RN ratings throw potatoes at each other, or just MN or USN ratings when passing at sea? While docked in port? What about Mad Vlad”s Orcs and the ChiComs (really don’t believe either group has a sense of humor). This is hysterically funny info for an outsider to learn, if true!
BTW, what is RN policy re alcohol consumption onboard ship? Wasn’t rum ration discontinued decades ago?.
The rum ration was discontinued, now only given on special occasions.
However RN ships aren’t ‘dry’ and the boys and girls are allowed to drink at sea iaw RN regulations.
Hi Mr Spanner
Do the navy have access to army weapons…. Could an anti tank missile be launched from a B2…Javelin fired from the rear deck ….
Thanks Ian
Yes the navy (Royal Marines) can use some army kit. A lot of stuff is used by both services. The river class can carry 50 Royal Marines on board and their kit. I’m sure they will bring a nice selection of weapons with them.
I can remember hearing of marines on deck with guns, manpads etc during the falklands conflict. A case of if it goes bang point it at the incoming jets.
The new martlet missile has anti air and ability to hit ground targets. Also the sea ceptor missile can hit ground targets if needed.
Not just Royal Marines. Army units regularly embark on board River B2’s.
I didn’t actually know that. Very interesting. I just assumed it would be marines and the army stick to the amphibious ships
tbf the plural may be an exageration, but I know that Forth, and Clyde before her often embark an Army platoon from whomever is rotating through the Falklands.
Sea Ceptor is CAMM. River B2 currently don’t have CAMM. It’s not a Manpad type system, requires some form of VLS or containerised hydraulic type equivalent (its 3 meters long).
Just need bigger men for camm manpad version. Or 2 marines one standing on shoulders under a trench coat.
You forgot superfiring 16” triple gun turrets.
Personally I think the Japanese had the right idea and go with 18inch guns.
How true!
Hell, we have a couple of Iowa class BBs, which are either floating museums or rusting in storage…could make you a one time, good deal. 😁. Would be suitable for proposed conversion kit. Imagine the look on the next pirate”s face when facing nine 16 inch guns.
All 4 are very well maintained as museums, but could come out of retirement, hell Missouri took on Aliens lol..
😂😂
Nah, we fell for that before with lend/lease… you buggers still have Ascension and DG (sort of). 😉
Curses, foiled again! 🤣😂😁
I love when this comes ups. It gives me the chance to keep using this image.
Careful, the political class may attempt to place an order for a fleet of these! 😁
😆
HMAS Arafura and HMAS Wollongong?? Something is a bit off in this article.
Yes HMAS Wollongong, an Armidale class patrol boat, is in commission, but Arafura, lead ship of the Arafura class OPVs is still fitting out in Adelaide.
And as a yet to be commissioned RAN ship, her correct title is NUSHIP Arafura, she doesn’t gain the HMAS title until commissioned late this year.
https://www.navy.gov.au/nuship-arafura
There are three Armidale class PBs that start with ‘A’, a name mix up perhaps?
Perhaps these are sailors expected to crew the Arafura later this year.
Great that we are engaging with Australia however one has to wonder how much combined training three OPV’s can really do together. I can’t imagine a situation that would require or be optimal for three OPV’s. Hopefully the B2 deployments are paving the way for forward deployments of something a bit more capable like T32 or some future Black Swan drone carriers.
OPVs and PBs do have an important role.
In the Australian context, the RAN PB fleet (in the process of being replaced by larger OPVs), are the day to day front line when it comes to border patrol, a broad range of constabulary roles, illegal entry patrol, fisheries patrol, etc, etc.
You don’t need an expensive fleet of Destroyers and Frigates out there doing those day to day roles.
Exactly 👏I really don’t get the hate with the B2’s these are fantastic WARSHIPS, if the navy had more money and missile’s to spare then yes they might have a little more bite but as you correctly state they are not designed to fight other warships. What people also forget is these are designed to carry 50 royals and that on most days is enough to make most nations coastlines a target.
B2 “Warships”? In any war they’d be death traps.
Yes very much and it’s really important that it’s very clear they are constabulary vessels. Nothing should be added that could make a decision maker think they could be used as anything else.
You’d be a fool to put them up against an enemy combatant, these are useful additions to fleet using its small size to its advantage in the litterol environment. From Lilly padding helo’s ship to ship extending there range, marine insertion and when navy PODS comes online literally an unlimited amount of sensors to weapons could theoretically be bolted on.
They were designed from the outset to do the non fighting tasks but these are essential vessels for the navy in terms of hull numbers, training, port/diplomatic visits, constabulary duties, drug enforcement and extending the lives of other vessels.
Well said pal 👍
But need to be able to defend themselves in medium intensity non state actor situations?
I’m thinking crew safety here.
‘Death traps’ might be taking things a bit far. The RN specced quite a few enhancements to get from the Amazonas to the River 2.
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/06/thoughts-batch-2-river-class/
Any vessel with HMS on it has a radio call sign of WARSHIP.. (Insert Applicable name here). That goes for P2000 as well
A similar argument is going on here in Oz regarding the under construction Arafura class OPV. The planned armament is a 40mm main gun and a couple of .50 cal MGs, plus UAV and three RHIBs, all of which is more than sufficient for the constabulary role. Then there are those that want to see a 57mm or 76mm main gun, NSM anti ship missiles, etc. But this all comes at a large costs, both in dollars and manpower, what do you rob from the Defence budget to pay for it? Anyway, I’d rather see the Arafura OPV fleet armed… Read more »
There will always be the people that don’t understand how vessels work and how the different levels of warships work.
I go with the navy know what they are doing better than anyone so normally they are correct.
Navy aren’t the ones with the money. It’s the holders of the purse that make the final decision. They are forced to listen to the navies opinion, but that’s as far as it goes.
My problem is once you go to an OPV, you are moving into the small warship arena. Currently they only have a 25mm. Why hasn’t the BAE Bofors 40mm not already been ordered? There is only (realistically), Leonardo or BAE Bofors, unless you want a super 40 (why?). The Leonardo option has recently been cancelled. Get a move on. If a civilian company moved so slow, they would be broke already. Nothing moves slower than the military, unless the bullets are already buzzing around the ears. Then they can move surprisingly fast. RAN is getting 12 of these. If s**t… Read more »
I’m a hater of the B2 River’s so I’ll try and explain it. We do need patrol vessels for maritime interdiction, search and rescue, humanitarian relief and anti-piracy. They don’t need to be heavily armed for those missions but they absolutely do need a hangar to permanently embark a helicopter. Without an ability to see over the horizon with a helicopter, their usefulness in the very missions that they are supposed to undertake is seriously curtailed. For the £650m which we spent on them I’d rather we bought only four ships but put a hangar for a Wildcat on each… Read more »
Unfortunately the navy has to make do with what it’s got, and given by politics. We all know these were build for job creation and for votes. No these weren’t designed for warfighting just the 99 other tasks that need covering, The problem we have is head count and hull availability-why send a wave all the way to the Pacific for a mundane task that would be a wasted use of crew and resources. The rivers were designed from the outset to provide a small crew and low running costs for the navy at a time when we are struggling… Read more »
You don’t need a Wildcat and the 12 extra crew to service it just to see beyond the horizon. A drone such as a Firescout can do that far cheaper and at less risk.
And once we’ve spent yet more money on the River’s and given them that capability then my only criticism will be the limitations on humanitarian relief and the rescue element of the SAR mission coming from not having a helicopter. Unfortunately they’re not equipped with that capability and there are no plans to put it on them so my criticism stands: they are £650m of ships plus crews and operating costs that are next to useless in their primary role and offer dreadful value for money in terms of the capability provided given their construction cost.
The reason a B2 can’t embark a helicopter isn’t to do with the lack of a hangar, it’s to do with the lack of helicopters. If there were spare helicopters the Rivers could use them. In May, HMS Trent embarked a Wildcat for 2 weeks of extensive day and night flying operations in the Mediterranean and Atlantic. The objective was to find the Ship Helicopter Operating Limits. Until that was done, helicopters couldn’t be routinely employed on the Rivers anyway. Now there should be no issue using the Rivers for helicopter-embarked SAR. But that still leaves the question, where are you… Read more »
I’m not talking about a helicopter some of the time. I’m talking all of the time and that requires a hangar. As to where I’d get them, then cancel the National Ship. The £250m saved from that would get you about 10 light to medium helicopters with a surface search radar, data link and a couple of LMG mounts in the doors which is all that’s required for these missions. Or you cancel Ajax and have 64 helicopters from the £1.6bn remaining to spend on that programme. I’m only kidding on that one but it’s just the best illustration going… Read more »
The ongoing costs of a new-to-the-navy manned helicopter bought in such small numbers would be horrendous.
For £2m you can get two radar-carrying Camcopters/AWHeros, which will let you see over the horizon and even aim weapons at “bad guys”. BAE are currently working on integrating them into the CMS (for HMS Lancaster); they don’t need a hangar and can work out of a 20′ container. And they don’t preclude the occasional use of a full scale helicopter when need arises.
Plus River B2’s have space for TEU’s on either side of the superstructure, so you wouldn’t even need ab refit.
Good post. In a conflict situation the batch 2 Rivers can embark, refuel and rearm a Wildcat for significant periods. You don’t need a hangar and a maintenance crew on every ship. In a littoral support situation for example the River would be operating with a frigate and/or an LSD. That said most would agree that we need more helos. I am hoping what comes out of the medium helicopter procurement will fix that issue.
I don’t hold out much chance of that. I’m expecting far less to be ordered than the Puma, Bells, and Dauphin that are in service currently. Usual service.
But UK built so Yeovil workers and Somerset MPs are happy even if the military misses out on the numbers needed, as usual!
I hope I’m wrong.
Morning Daniele, I accept the argument that you can achieve equal or better availability with smaller numbers of newer, fewer types. Standardisation cuts costs. As you say the issue is that the MOD will focus just on costs rather than increasing geographic presence and capability. A helicopter can only be in one place at once. Putting aside the Black Hawk vs AW discussion for a moment I am interested to see our stealthy but increasing investment in Airbus H135 and H145. I wonder if the government are keen to give Airbus some business out of the medium procurement program. Sweetners… Read more »
“increasing geographic presence and capability. A helicopter can only be in one place at once.” Agreed. “I accept the argument that you can achieve equal or better availability with smaller numbers of newer, fewer types.” So do I. The problem with that is that HMG do not reduce commitments. In fact they increase them, while reducing numbers across the board. Playing the part of the major power and all that, alongside the US. And the asset can still only be be in one place, and nowhere once it is destroyed. A balance between quality vs quantity is needed. As of… Read more »
The idea to xfer Wildcat AH1 to the RN is appealing. The AH1 with Wescam and 50cal would be fine for constabulary work, no? And you could probably fit it with a laser guided missile to make a credible attack helicopter.
Doesn’t help with the dearth of Merlin’s though. Would the RN consider adding dipping sonar to some maritime Wildcats?
Another long suggested idea. I still think the non conversion of those 11 HM1s and reduction to 30 for the non CHF Merlin force is scandalous, given that they now also pick up the ASCS role as the Sea Kings were not replaced with new. There is also the planned UAV taking the “fix and find” role in support of Merlin,”Promethus” ? is it called, but given our reluctance to buy an UAV and use it and go from there it does not fill me with much confidence we see results any time soon before industry has taken another feed… Read more »
Hi DM, I’m liking the idea of transferring the Wildcat Lynx to the AAC (as Gazelle/Dauphin/Bell 212 replacement), with some retained for the Royal Marines.
Re instating all ASW Merlin “pingers” seemed sensible to me! But I guess that opportunity is gone as some will be converted to the AEW role?
Morning K. A few points if I may. There’s no need to “retain” them, as the AAC ones are actually the ones used by the Royal Marines anyway! As part of the 34 the army use in 1 AAC, Wildcat AH1, they are pooled for use by 2 AAC Sqns and the FAA Sqn, 847 NAS. Even though they are army aircraft. So transferring them all to the FAA makes no difference as the RM are a part of the naval service, and the rest of the CHF ( Commando Helicopter Force ) of which 847 is a part, are… Read more »
You are assuming the ship is operating somewhere where that is possible. If it’s a HADR event, it’s likely any frigate or LSD that turns up is not going to be RN unless it’s in Europe. The recent undersea volcano off Tonga in the pacific did not send out written invitations. Ships from Australia, New Zealand, US, China and others did eventually turn up. Helicopters were a premium & you had to bring them with you. You may be able to do a crash run with a frigate, but a ship like a LSD or LHD loaded with everything you… Read more »
Fair point. You can do some preparation ahead of time though, like we do for the hurricane season in the Caribbean. I accept though that Asia Pacific is different kettle of fish.
Paul Hurricane season in the Caribbean is reasonably predictable. However, the Pacific is massive. The Caribbean is enclosed on 3 sides & is reasonably compact. The Chilean Easter Island is almost 3,700km from the Chile mainland in South America. From Australia to Tonga is close to 3,600km. It is around 1,935 nm from the Australian naval base in Sydney. That’s 4 days at 20 knots for a RAN LHD just to get there (plus load out time from scratch). The nation of Kiribati is only 811 sq km but spread over 3.5 million sq km of ocean. If it is… Read more »
Indeed, I think I remember someone saying when you look at a map of the world from the US to Australia with Europe and Africa in the middle that the Pacific is the entire reverse side of the sheet.
So your criticism is that they’re not suitable for a role which the RN did not intend them to be used in? That’s like criticising the Astutes because they can’t accommodate and F35s 🤦🏻♂️
Fortunately the experienced and knowledgeable professionals of the RN disagree with you on just about every point; and I rather trust them than some armchair admiral.
BTW if you’d bother doing some background research you’d know why they are expensive. While they’re based on the Amazonas corvette, the RN required that their safety, redundancy, and survivability be en par with any other warship in the RN.
Thanks for the personal insults. They added a huge amount to the debate and almost swung me around to your point view.
The role of the River’s most certainly is humanitarian relief, anti-piracy and constabulary roles including interdiction. All roles that they can’t fulfill effectively without a helicopter.
As you don’t want to take my word for it perhaps the briefing in the House of Commons library might satisfy you?
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9089/
Or maybe the government’s own briefing on the role of the B2 River’s when it ordered them
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-offshore-patrol-vessels-for-royal-navy
That and they where deliberately built slowly to keep the workforce in the clyde employed until the t26 build was ready to start.
Also remember that the B1s *were* decommissioned, and then the Navy decided it needed them back in service, that’s not a light U-turn to make, and I’m sure studies into keeping the waves active instead where made first.
Pretty sure the Rivers weren’t deliberately built slowly, I think that applies only to the QE class and T26s. Though the build would have been faster if there hadn’t been quality control issues; eg the infamous glued-on bolt heads. But one of the justifications for building them was to keep the required skilled workforce in work. So without the Rivers the T26s would be even more expensive and even later. No only one of the B1s was actually decommissioned; Tyne though they originally planned to decommission them all. But after Brexit and the increased constabulary duties arising from taking control… Read more »
Nah the initial build schedule was deliberately inflated even before the quality control issues surfaced, that’s why they where so expensive.
Wrong 🤷🏻♂️
Correct, you are wrong.
Gosh, I thought I wouldn’t labour it as I’d expect most people could understand my simple one world reply, but not you it seems.
So to rephrase my previous post:-
“You are wrong”.
That you so badly misunderstood/ misinterpreted my previous post perhaps explains why you’ve managed to completely befuddle yourself on the topic of the River OPVs in the first place 🤔
Funny, but doesn’t change the fact that your condescending ass is still wrong.
Yes, Your correct on that one point, I am very funny. As they say, sarcasm is like punching someone in the face, but with words.
Leave my ass out of this, unlike your good self I’m not talking out of mine.
Once again, every word… wrong.
It’s amazing how you manage it.
Agreed.
Im guessing it would be the the running costs of Echo and the Waves versus the batch 2 Rivers?
I’m sure once the T31s come on line (which are at their heart global patrol frigates with plenty of space for future autonomous systems ) and the Rivers get old and are retired, they will be returned to to the fisheries and EEZ patrol function which is what they are designed for. At present they are filling a hole because HMG did not put any new escorts in the water for a decade. In reality the RN was going to need a new patrol hull by 2025-30 so these just got put in the water a bit early.
Indeed: a River 2 with minimum crew is a comforting presence.
A Rover 2 with a Martlet and Sea Venom armed Wildcat and 50 Royals with Javelins is a different proposition.
I agree they are vital, I just can’t imagine a tasking that would need three of them at the same time beyond search and rescue which would be better performed by a different platform with organic air capability. So in this instance the joint training they are doing is likely more PR/diplomatic than militarily useful.
This is mostly a PR thing and there’s nothing wrong with that.
And they might work together if there’s a natural disaster. Or even in a war, as they would be doing far rear guard duties and taking over previous frigate patrol duties.
I agree the PR is important and building diplomacy is vital in the region. But building up hard military skills like MCM and ASW will become increasingly important in the future in the way we train with NATO.
John N, I’d whisper that kind of talk round here mate, it’s all about the bangs sticks baby.
It is about being able to defend the ship against non state actors TBH.
The world has changed since B2 was launched.
Offensive weapons no, defensive/deterrent weapons yes.
SB, have you seen one of these 30mm’s let rip. The way people talk about them on here you would think they’re a GPMG. They can put a lot of big holes in something in quite a short space of time. You’re right that the world has changed and if we were launching them now then we might well have put a 40 or even 57mm on them (I doubt the latter but I’ll roll with it) but at the time we didn’t have anything between 30mm and 4.5″ so it would have meant introducing another weapon system for a… Read more »
I totally agree. I have been in a range with a 30mm system and I agree that it will easily punch holes, very precisely, in quite thick steel. So I have zero doubt that a 30mm would see if most threats in range. The *only* reason I mentioned 40mm is that the jungle sums are that RN may switch to 40mm with 3P on some vessels. 40mm is already advertised for T31 so it is hardly new news. This *might* be the reason for ‘delay’ in fitting 30mm to QEC. I would never advocate a 57mm for the B2 river.… Read more »
Yeah the good old Bofors is making a reappearance on the T31’s but as its not ‘in’ yet, its no surprise that (in this case) the Rivers don’t have it. Down the line it might but when these were commissioned it was basically a 30 mil stick on the pointy end. As for missiles, its not exactly my area of expertise (yet to be found… 😞) but you start needing more people doing more things and you start getting away from what the core roles of the Rivers is. My gut says people are fixated on the size and weight… Read more »
I agree with you.
The problem is that, post corporate analysis, anything and everything from The Grey Funnel Line was sent South. Often with close to comedy weapons fit.
So I’m afraid that if the smelly stuff hit the fan, then B2’s would go to places no sane person would send a B2 into.
Why was T21, a costal defensive frigate sent south? There wasn’t anything else.
So we can talk, all we like, about roles + intensities. But, at the same time we need to intellectually doff our caps to reality.
“But, at the same time we need to intellectually doff our caps to reality.” Your “reality” is going to be at the whim of those calling the shots, same as it ever was and will be. You go with what you’ve got. Its going to be an ever evolving situation you send people to fight in, whether its land, sea or air and at the risk of being flippant, its part of what you sign up for. Your country might (for example) have the best tank on the planet but that will come at the expense of something else. If… Read more »
I heard the reason the QE had not been fitted with 30mm was the fear by the RN that trigger-happy gunners on a QE carrier could do serious damage to the radars and superstructures of her surrounding escorts – the ships that are supposed to deal with inbound threats.
I don’t think that is the case.
You could use the exact same argument for Phalanx.
CIWS is controlled from the CMS – you cannot react that fast and Phalanx is usually in auto mode in a threat environment. IFF does allow for deconfliction.
Phalanx CIWS is is radar guided and automated, would be something seriously wrong if it started firing on escorts.
Whereas the 30mm can be operated in both automated and manual.
And the 30mm will do a lot more damage to an escort than the 20mm from a Phalanx.
https://www.navylookout.com/close-in-defence-for-the-royal-navys-aircraft-carriers/
I don’t know why people can’t read what I wrote. I never said OPV’s are not useful, they are vital. However training them in a fleet has little utility. They operate on their own by definition. So us sending out a B2 primarily to train with Allie’s lacks utility given the limited set of training missions it can conduct.
What is your problem?
This is your second reply to my original post, this time more aggressive too.
Again, what is your problem?
No need to act like an agro prick when others have a differing opinion, grow up.
No problem just read what I said before replying.
Ok if anyone asks you didn’t hear it from me. I’ve got exclusive details on Batch 3. I know many of you will be upset about number of VLS and size of guns. But here it is anyway.
Youtube
AI Colorized | Rodney Shells Alderney
This file will self destruct in 10 hours.
Great to see! Would have liked the French to have done something, but they are in the middle of getting new ships.
New Zealand very notably absent.
I do feel that the river class ships are an inherent statement of the decline of the RN. Sending a boy to do a mans job!
First time poster long time reader.
Just wondering, anybody else like the idea all of our ships getting a similar paint job as they come up for repainting or would that be way too much money compared to plain grey?
Good patrol boats the Armidale. Quickly built too ( think it was 14 built in 3-4 years.)
The 25mm is perfect for watch they do… no need for anything bigger.
Bit of TV useless info… it was the Armidale class that featured in the 2nd series onwards of Sea Patrol… replacing the Fremantle class of the first series
Their workload has gone through the roof & they physically can’t handle it. Hence being replaced by 80m OPV. The OPV sized ship though puts you on the ‘we should sink you’ list. 40mm gives some AA & anti-surface ability while still being an OPV gun at a cheap price. 57mm & 76mm comes at a steep price increase.
This OPV would be better off in the Channel sinking inflatables coming from France
So you’d have them committing murder? Thankfully our servicemen are a higher calibre than the rabble the Russians have and would refuse such an order.
Grow up Sean., Sinking inflatables to stop illegals invading the UK is a long reach from murder
You’re the childish one, advocating the murder of illegal immigrants. Yes they should be stopped, yes they should be returned from whence they came if they are not genuine asylum seekers. But you don’t murder them, that makes you no better than the Russian orcs in the Ukraine. The U.K. is better than that – well except for you and any other Neo-Nazis that agree with you.
Show me where and I mean EXACTLY where I say anything about killing migrants. I do not in any way or form, I say SINK the boats, nothing else, that would natually include taking the people off the boats and returning them IMMEDIATELY to France.
Oh so instead of killing them in the Channel you now what to create a diplomatic incident by invading French territorial waters. Excellent, you’ve gone from murder to provoking a war with a NATO ally… 🤦🏻♂️
Pretty sure you’d have very few if any RN personnel comply with any orders to shoot them
How would you go about sinking inflatables in the channel without harming those on board? We’re above that thankfully.
It is also not the RN’s job to police our borders. Have a go at the Home Office/Home Sec if you want to see more cutters in the channel.
We do it the way the RN has done it in the Gulf, Off Somalia, off Belize and Caribean. We stop the boats, board them, arrest those on board, then sink the boat.
Exactly, arrest them and take them to a UK jurisdiction port where they claim assylum…Oh hang on
Somewhere nice like the Falklands.
I believe Unst island in the Shetlands is lovely this time of the year!
Yes but too easy to get back to the mainland. Hate to pay for a civilian ticket from Stanley to London.
good one DJ!😚
😂
For all their faults – perceived or otherwise – there is no doubting they are a fine looking ship!
How usual is it for OPVs to globetrot? Is this just for PR or is there a valid operational reason to deploy that far from home waters, such as a shortage of DD/FF?
Hi Graham. They have taken over the flag showing and anti piracy, humanitarian etc. roles from the Frigates and Destroyers. The 5 are all based overseas-one each in the Caribbean, Gibraltar and Falklands, and two in the Far East
I would note that Chile sent one of its new 80m OPV (a Fassmer design) to the Somali coast (East Africa) on piracy duty a couple of years ago. These types of ships are designed to go long distances & stay there for extended times.
Why else would they be built with ranges >10,000km?
I just asked the question as I had not heard of OPVs doing such work. I was very familiar with the OPV (Dunbarton Castle for a long time) doing its stuff in FI (based out of Mare Harbour) and doing conventional OPV work. Had not heard of these new roles a long way from home port.
France and Australia are moving in that direction and the US Coastguard have cutters stationed around the world. However, I’m not sure anyone else is doing it quite the way we are for Tamar and Spey, with no fixed base at all.
The old Castles were built for the perceived task at the time Graham, these are larger vessels with good sea keeping ability. As has been pointed out plenty times on here, they have the displacement of an old WW2 destroyer. This gives them the space for a number of roles from anti piracy to humanitarian aid. They also have bit more ‘legs’ than the Castles (and assorted Minor War Vessels that have been pressed into service as patrol boats). Its been said the RN weren’t keen on them initially and they were a ‘stop gap’ to keep Scotstoun open but… Read more »
Thanks very much Andy for filling in my knowledge gap. I knew ‘Bouncy Castle’ during my 1999/2000 FI tour and had little knowledge of the rationale for the Castle-class replacements. My background is Army and I am very used to tiers of equipment, eg – Infantry (depending on role) may (currently) deploy in relatively expensive but best protected/best armed Warrior IFV, or a wheeled Protected Mobility vehicle (less well armed) or a soft-skinned vehicle (many of these, cheap but zero protection and zero to minimal armament. Traditionally only the top-flight vehicle (Warrior) could be called ‘gold-plated’, but some of those… Read more »
No worries Graham, a lot of the stuff on here is down to personal opinion and you know what they say about opinions. 😉 The navy has always had different vessels for different tasks, same as everywhere I guess but its definitely becoming more (engage cliche mode….) ‘nuanced’ as the price of stuff has gone up. I suspect that plays a part in pretty much every corner of procurement across all 3 services, there has to be a compromise and in this case the navy have made the most of this vessel that has been pushed on it. I’m with… Read more »
No that’s not a naive comparison, the RN is tiering it’s equipment with different classes of vessels at different capability/price points.
Even the huge and wealthy USN needs to do the same, it can’t assign an Arleigh Burke for every job and task.
I take issue with the old WW2 destroyer comment; and request we start pointing out that River B2s are the size of old Edwardian Cruisers thank you very much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl-class_cruiser
😂 Apologies Sir, I stand corrected and I salute your more historical stance.
😊 FWIW the idea was to replace the B1’s with 3x B2s and keep Clyde as the Falklands Island ship, at that point it was a jobs scheme. Then Tamar and Spey where ordered, Clyde was sold. and the RN realized they were useful globally, at which point the retired B1’s were brought back into service, and the B2’s fwd deployed. I’m not sure the navy didn’t want them completely, I think they just saw it as bringing the B1 replacement fwd a few years, but they definetly didn’t want them in this role. Ironcially of course because we now… Read more »
They are the eyes and ears of the British Government…. The two in the Far East will have important roles particularly with the increasing tensions with China….