In a coordinated effort this morning, UK Armed Forces joined forces with the United States, France, and other allies to carry out a critical military operation in Khartoum.
The mission aimed to evacuate British Embassy staff and their dependants amidst growing threats against diplomats in the region.
The large-scale operation involved mobilising over 1,200 personnel from various military branches, including the 16 Air Assault Brigade, the Royal Marines, and the Royal Air Force (RAF).
A British C-130J and A400M arriving in Cyprus from Africa, understood to be evacuating British personnel from Sudan. pic.twitter.com/xQ19ZlGVt4
— George Allison (@geoallison) April 23, 2023
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:
“This morning, UK Armed Forces undertook a military operation alongside the United States, France and other allies.
They have evacuated British Embassy staff and their dependants from Khartoum due to the escalating threats against diplomats. The operation involved more than 1,200 personnel from 16 Air Assault Brigade, the Royal Marines and the RAF. I am grateful to all our partners.”
The operation involved more than 1200 British personnel from 16 Air Assault Brigade,the Royal Marines and the RAF. I am grateful to all our partners including Cyprus. I want to pay tribute to the bravery and professionalism of our armed forces. @RoyalNavy @RoyalMarines…
— Rt. Hon Ben Wallace (@BenWallace70) April 23, 2023
Glad we’re getting people out, wouldn’t fancy being in the middle of that when it really kicks off.
Good to hear. What another pointless waste of life though. The Sudan again.
Interesting that a apparently redundant Herky Bird is going. Will we never learn?
While some Hercules are still in service they will still be used. If this happened sometime in the future 2 x A400’s would be deployed.
I think though that is generally accepted that our special forces do not want the C130’s to go.
They Don’t, but they also don’t want to pay for them. RAF don’t want the Herc as £per mile is more expensive than a A400.
You may well be right Jon but my old car doesn’t do what it did per mile but it still starts when I want it to.😉
I thought the airframes were past the end of their lives?
I don’t know is the truthful answer but not so long ago they were going to be kept, now they are just another cut.
As much as I love the Herc and experience that warm gooey feeling inside whenever I see one. (Professional help is being sought.) There is a good argument for replacing them. They are getting on a bit and air transportable vehicle requirements are bigger these days.
As for the SF needs. I’m sure they would be just as well served by a small number of highly specialised new C130 airframes or something even more versatile. Such as the very capable CASA C-235/295 derivatives or even better the Bell V-280 Valor. Now that would be a good idea. Unfortunately, they will be told just to get on with it. Share with everyone else and do more with even less!
I used to see the Herc thundering across the fields at a couple hundred feet quite regularly. Awesome sight. I think you’re right about the “make do” though sadly. Mind you the Valor would liven things up a bit for all services. It’s range and speed will make it a great surprise guest at an over the horizon incursion.🛬
I remember my last trip on a Herc. 1991 Coming back to Boscombe via Akrotiri. Disgorging two 101FC, loads of buckshee kit and plenty of sand.
I’ve been reading up on this story and it never fails to amaze me how the liberal (and often leftwing) main stream media whilst bigging up everybody else and totally leaving out how all the Western nations have liaised beforehand regards this evacuation, left out the British participation until they could no longer do so and as usual, they are now berating the Uk for taking out diplomats and their families first.
https://i.postimg.cc/BvzxHnFQ/Opera-Snapshot-2023-04-23-170305-www-theguardian-com.png
So regards the above Guardian article posted at half two this afternoon, mentioned the US, France, Holland, Greece, Holland, Italy and Saudi Arabia, but not the Uk which they report as(and I quote:
“”The UK foreign secretary, James Cleverly, cut short a tour of New Zealand and Samoa to return to the UK to focus on its response to the crisis in Sudan, as well as to launch high-level diplomacy in an attempt to move the two warring parties towards a ceasefire.””
FFS what is wrong with these people where they peddle negatively every chance they get, a later article from the Guardian whilst reporting that the Uk has evacuated Diplomatic staff are now peddling the entitled (Read that as white) people first. I quote from their article:
UK armed forces evacuate British diplomats from Sudan after threatsWith UK citizens still trapped by the fighting in Khartoum, the news that diplomats have been prioritised is likely to cause deep concern,
The so called Independent goes one better and has reports the UK evacution as:
Britons trapped in Sudan accuse government of abandoning them as diplomats evacuated
British citizens trapped in Sudan have accused the government of abandoning them in a country feared to be on the brink of a prolonged civil war, as diplomats were evacuated by the British military.
Sick to death of the wonk liberal media (and its sycophants) who promote division instead of unity on this country and its fine people.
What on earth do you expect from the Grauniad? As usual they will have omitted that the people first out will be the families and the dependents, I bet that there are some reasonably experienced diplomats still in post and doing their damndest to ensure that as many UK citizens as possible are kept safe and evacuated when possible. Together with chaps from 16 AAB and others who as usual will get zero recognition from the media.
Stand by for tomorrow’s headline which will no doubt be on the lines of “British diplomats run away”.
The UK media since Brexit and the US media since Trump have been on a mission to paint their respective countries in the worst possible light, unfortunately 90% of the planets media is in NY and London. Both city’s populations sharing a someone similar view of the world in which China, India and the Global South are some how bastions of peace that have a moral stance and neutrality while the evil warmongering Britain and America plot nothing more than a global takeover so they can perpetuate the patriarchy.
The same media figures also cried fowl when the US pulled out of Afghanistan and refused to bomb Syria. They wanted everyone locked up during COVID and the economy shut down and now they scream form the roof tops that there is a cost of living crisis caused not by switching everything off for two years but caused by greedy corporations.
It’s always been the same with media in this country. Sensationalist reporting, effectively click bait. Focus on doom and gloom and people will read the stories, focus on everything is not so bad and no one will. Factual fact checked reporting hasn’t been a thing for decades.
I stopped watching/reading “mainstream news” over 3 years ago. It’s all biased against anyone that doesn’t have liberal thoughts. Is funny because they all crucified Trump for everything he did but since Biden took off we now have a major war in Europe, soaring inflation, economies tanking, ect and the media still says Biden is doing a great job. Ugh.
Just how is what you’ve listed the fault of Biden?
Are you aware that causation and correlation are two completely different things?
No different to the US then who evaced 70 diplomats and embassy staff🙄 apparently there are still 1600 or so US citizens in country.
Some reports state 16,000. 😳
Yep wrong number of zero’s 🙄
We need more info, but it seems that the US moved first and then once they had their people out, they supported the other nations, which indicate that neither the UK or France was capable of getting their people out without waiting on the US. Something that we surely should have the capablility to do. As such I am curious what we capability we needed to borrow to acheive it and considering this is not the first of these in recent years what the plans are to fill that gap.
as reported on friday:
https://i.postimg.cc/65ZgmfGV/Opera-Snapshot-2023-04-23-193243-www-theguardian-com.png
US and British troops are being moved close to Sudan amid growing speculation they could be involved in some sort of evacuation or rescue of western nationals trapped in the country by the outbreak of fighting a week ago.
Lloyd Austin, the US defence secretary, said on Friday afternoon that the US had deployed military forces “in theatre” – meaning in countries relatively close to Sudan – to give the White House choices as to how to proceed, with 19,000 US citizens estimated as being stuck in the country.
“Our focus is to make sure that we continue to do planning, that we create and maintain as many options for our president as possible,” he said at a press conference in Ramstein, Germany.
British officials said the Ministry of Defence was also engaged in “prudent planning”, but would not otherwise comment what action the UK might be willing to take in a fluid and potentially dangerous situation.
French defence officials visiting Washington discussed Sudan evacuation contingencies with their Pentagon counterparts on Thursday: “It’s a very difficult situation, but of course we are monitoring the situation very closely and preparing together with our partners and allies in the region,” one French official said.
Other British military sources said some units were being readied in case they would be needed, but any action that would involve the UK and other countries would almost certainly take place in conjunction with the US.
However, a US source indicated that troops might only be deployed to facilitate the departure of US embassy personnel and cautioned that due to the uncertain security situation in Khartoum other Americans in the country should not expect a wider US government coordinated evacuation at this time.
The British embassy in Khartoum earlier on Friday said it had set up an emergency line for British citizens trapped by the fighting in Sudan and was trying to compile a list of those wanting to flee the country in an evacuation.
It is thought there are several hundred British citizens in Sudan, where fighting broke out last Saturday between the armed forces and a rival paramilitary group. There is no sign that foreign citizens have yet been systematically targeted or taken hostage in the violence, which has killed more than 400 people.
The Foreign Office said it was looking at all options to secure a rescue, and has asked British citizens in need of evacuation for their names and locations in Sudan, contact details and whether they want to leave or remain if the security situation allows departures by road or air.
And thanks to Robert below, it appears that the first British boots on the ground flew in on a US plane.
If I’m reading that right the expectation was to rely on the US to get our guys out, but the US only committed to get theirs out and so the day delay. Were lessons not learnt from afgan when US stuffed us over.
Although I can’t imagine France would rely on the US, so probably part of the story we are missing.
Sounds to me like 16AA was prepositioned at Akrotiri while UKSF tagged along with the Americans SOF units, UK has capability to do this alone if needed and thankfully it wasn’t
But why was 16AA that far away. Surely they should have been in the next friendly country with helicopters ready to go, so can lift straight off the embassy. I realise akrotriri is in air range but still adds hours. It not like this was a surprise, it has been in the news for a week or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Lemonnier
Probably becuase it is the closest secure UK base. We have some presence in Kenya, but that would require discussions & preperation with the Kenyan government which we may not have time to wait for. Sudan is a huge country & Cyprus isn’t much further away, especially if most evacuees are returning to the UK.
Ask the politicians. It is they who give political clearance to launch a NEO.
Not sure that UKSF are always needed for NEO. Maybe? We will never know.
Reading up about the US operation and it involved air-to-air refueling of the Chinooks due to the distances involved. That is a capability we don’t have, so might explain the difference in tactics.
I doubt we borrowed any capability to pull this off – why do you think that?
We seem to have to wait politically for the US to take the lead and act first, as they are the big cheese aka leader of the western world – not because we want to borrow some US kit to do a NEO.
Our SF guys borrowed a lift in via the US helicopters. Would guess they probably could have been para dropped in, but would have no way to get helicopters there at that range.
Really don’t get why we don’t have that capability when we have all the elements to achieve it. The c130 can do the job (guessing the a400m can also) and the Chinooks are designed to be refueled, not sure what is missing other than the training and maybe the boom.
Interesting. In my day SF info was very closely guarded so I am surprised that this info is ‘out there’ or is it speculation?
I think it is contractual and all tied up with the Voyager PFI arrangement with Airtanker. They are the Sole provider for the RAF so it is Voyager or nothing and that means no can do with owt else.
I think I read somewhere the PFI agreement was only for fixed wing, but might have read it wrong.
What is wrong with the reporting, your quotes seem factually correct? It states people in country feel abandoned. I assume they have sources to back that up and would imagine it would be true, if you were a British national in country and your embassy is air lifted out, but you are left behind wouldn’t you feel abandoned. It’s a difficult situation but that change the fact that there are real people in danger.
Agreed!
When the U.K. evacuated British citizens from Libya, Lebanon and Afghanistan, it soon became clear that the vast majority were people who had recently gained British citizenship and then found themselves back in their homeland. I’d hazard a guess that a large number claimed a new life by running away from the danger they faced there. If they could run away then why not now? there’s nothing stopping them from travelling outside of Khartoum (Where the fighting is) in search of safety, and contacting the U.K., I mean they have had no problem touching base with the media..
Finally if I was found myself in a third world country and an internecine bunfight kicked off, (As has been brewing inside the Sudan since 2019 when Bashir was removed from power.) Id be gone faster than you can say Jack Robinson.
Farouk are not dual passports part of the problem, it makes you a target. for turbulent countries maybe don’t allow it give them the UK passport if qualifying and they renounce their home passport
They are all waiting to trade in the tent for a nice Hotel room. read the news, happy to live there but cannot afford to leave unless its a free ride. what will these people offer the UK.
Spot on as per mate!
Bravo. You and me both mate.
Hey Daniele,
It’s that time when uniformed commentators on twitter start playing fantasy orbats, and everyone applauds them like they’re some kind of authority because they have a vague link to defence.
Case in point: Nicolas Drummond (chiefly known for being a Rheinmetall Employee and sales person these days) created his own fantasy orbat. What do you think?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fuf8528WYAMerUR?format=jpg&name=4096×4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FufmH2aXoAEIa7K?format=jpg&name=4096×4096
I know I’m kind of poising the well here, but I think that, yeah okay it’s in theory a good idea (minus 16AA in 6XX because, wtf are they doing there beyond some vague stuff about being “SOF enablers” that he mentions in his blurb), but how on earth is 4 Regiments of CR3’s, a new IFV, 4 extra battalions of infantry, and a whole extra set of enablers (and an extra set of reserve enablers!) affordable? I’m not really seeing significant cuts anywhere?
Hi Dern. Ha, the media and Twitter are full of it. I’ll have a study. Nic D is one I follow as it happens, he’s always pushing Boxer, as he would.
😳 After a quick scan, that is some ORBAT.
We’d love some of this if it ever came to fruition though I wonder what effect it would have on the RN and the RAF’s budgets.
Agree, cannot see any cuts, various groups streamlined.
2 extra SP gun Regs, which are doubled, so assume he is using the existing 4 RA LG Reg which supports 7 Bde.
2 extra HIMARS Regs on top, with the 2 MLRS Regs as well.
4 AI Bns on top of the MI Bns, which reduce by 1 back to 4.
Ajax all grouped with MI as they were in the Strike Bde days, leaving the AI Bdes bereft of supporting Armd Recc, unless they rely solely on the AI and A Reg recc Pltns/Troops.
Also the DSRB then has no integral Ajax, so reverts to a standard Art Bde yet still has the Deep Fires.
Interesting he’s using Brunei and Cyprus garrison Bns in his brigades as extra LI.
Still no integral CS Logs Reg in his DSRB.
Whole new set of Bde CS/CSS in 4x, moving the reserve CS/CSS into an un numbered L Mech Bde, but with regular Bns as 4 has currently, but Lt Mech, assume Foxhound or JLTV?
The RS Regs assigned to Bdes or Division seem to have largely vanished, assume they’re what he calls Info Spt.
What I assume is the HAC still with 77x.
No AAC? Assume as they’re JHC not listed.
One less UAV Reg? At the mo there are 2, one tactical with DH and the other with WK.
Cannot see his PD Bns anywhere, or the 2nd Cyprus LI Bn.
Ah, I also see your 2nd link shows his take on the current ORBAT for people to compare.
I’ve not read his Twitter blurb outlining all this yet.
And having read now read his blurb on Twitter, he at least admits that this is not affordable “yet.”
I see the SFAB also vanishes, but he does not state whether its Bns manpower return to that of the other regular Bns?
He also states 24 Land Sceptre as current, doubled to 46, which would be fantastic. But I have never actually seen that 24 number officially confirmed anywhere, have you?
Defo fantasy fleets until the funds and manpower are uplifted, substantially.
Yeah it’s very fantasy fleet, I think it irritated me because there where a load of people in the comments going “this is amazing” “it’s 100% affordable!” And I’m like: “How?”
In fairness he doesn’t seem to distinguish between light guns and SPG’s (let alone Archer and AS90) in his graphics, so lets be generous and imagine he’s just going “guns regiments”
So:
1 RHA-12 ABCT
19 RA-20 ABCT
7 Para – 16AA
4 RA- 7 LBCT
New RA- 4LBCT
103 RA (AR)- New Light Brigade
105 RA (AR)- New Light Brigade
104 RA (AR)- 1DSR
No matter how I count it, it’d need an entire new Guns Regiment.
The only way I can think of squaring rasing 4 new AI btns is that he looked at the SFA’s and said “Well we’ll just re-roll them to AI” but didn’t stop to think that an SFA is about 300 people and an AI Btn is about 700.
He also needs not only a completely new set of CSS for 4 LBCT but he also needs a completely new set of AR CSS for his 2nd Ununmbered Light Brigade.
You raise a point about his manuever brigades that didn’t click for me before: He does have Cyprus and Brunei in his brigades.
Why?
He’s gone through the effort of securing funding for an extra two sets of CSS enablers, still has 2 Reserve Brigades that are completely undeployable, and 2 Regular Brigades that will never deploy because they need Reserve CSS to be stood up… but the only formations that have Regular CSS have units that are deployed overseas and functionally not part of the unit, or light infantry….
PD’s wouldn’t show up on his chart, they come under Home Command not Field Army, and 1 AAC comes under JHC.
TD also posted a rather long thing about his view of the British Army Orbat in the futur, I kind of lost interest though when he suggested making all of the Para Regiment “SOF” (something Nicholas can’t help himself talking about either, 16AA being “SOF enablers” in 6XX which… sigh… why? [I know why because he wants the Para fans on side]), anyway yeah, at that point I kind of stopped reading because we’ve just put a few hundred million into the Rangers to make a SOF unit, but we’ll I don’t know disband that and turn the Paras into SOF, meaning we need to upgrade other light infantry into a high readyness unit… in a orbat that allededgly is ruthlessly “cost orientated”… yeah..
Yes, going round in circles re SOB.
Good point regards the PD Bns, I didn’t think of that.
And fair one on whether SP or LG, I just looked at the graphic which is the same for all, he could have created a LG one really.
It is fun for us to dismember this sort of thing, but the real interest will be when the new DCP arrives and we see what slight of hand ( or genuine improvements ) the army come up with…
Honestly hoping for no change. Major course corrections every five years is disruptive. Upping the schedule to every 2 and a half years would be… well we might as well not bother having a structure.
Regards major reorgs I agree. The army as we know has had so many reorgs going back to Future Army Structures ( from aroubd 2007 I recall? ) that no sooner has one restructure been implemented another arrives. And, as we both know, often the changes are not even complete before it is all ripped up again.
I’m happy with the ORBAT and also the 73K if it’s resourced correctly and the CS CSS is there for the brigades we have.
As it is, they’re not.
The RA, in the Gun, Deep Fires, MRAD, CAUS, and SHORAD areas all need uplifting too, and there are programmes in the pipeline.
Besides which, for ORBAT followers such as ourselves it’s hard to keep track! 😆
The Guardian and the Indy are the worst for this type of ‘reporting’ and like you it really irritates me.
This government could find a literal money tree and use it give £1m to every man, woman and child in the country and the G and Indy would find something negative to say because it’s not “their” government doing it.
The left thrive on misery and negativity and those two rags in particular will never fail to stoop to the lowest level possible to keep the outrage going.
I recall one article in the Guardian during the pandemic that was lamenting the fact that ‘ghost flights’ were flying from UK to European airports basically empty because of the travel restrictions and how disgusting it was that the UK government was allowing this to happen. Two minutes on Google revealed the actual truth which was these flights were going ahead because the UK and EU have “use it or lose it” rules on flight slots. The UK government suspended this requirement. The EU did not, so airlines had to keep flying to airports in EU member states or lose their slots. The reality was a far cry from what The Guardian was trying to paint.
Farouk, different but similar story, about blanking UK military efforts on the international stage. I heard every word of US Defense Secretary’s podium speech from his Ramstein conference about the West’s military aid effort to Ukraine. He referenced every piece of US military equipment you could think of that the US had supplied then made reference to some European nations sending Leo2s, but nothing about the UK’s military assistance, which I believe is far more than any other European country, and second only to the US.
“Sick to death of the wonk liberal media (and its sycophants) who promote division instead of unity on this country and its fine people.”
Speaking of, you never fail to capitalise on any situation to bang on about the wokes under the bed..
“If they could run away then why not now?”
Amazing that you’re turning on the evacuees for providing your political rivals with ammunition.
It may shock you but there are a few things more important to others than being a pawn in your left/right turf war, protecting their families being one.
T wrote:
I like reading France 24 for the news, as they report on the news without embellishing news reports with adjectives and personal biases. So they too have reported on how the British Media is reporting on the situation inside Sudan. Here is what they had to say about one British citizen who has been failed by the British government:
Get that, Not only did the old bloke travel to the Sudan during a time of active political turmoil , but he has refused 2 chances of getting out of the country. Now I don’t live in a third world country. yet upstairs I have packed in a Wisport Sparrow 20 II Rucksack a crash out pack, (it gets checked twice a year, where I ensure that stuff is exchanged or swapped about.) It is there just in case, we have to bug out abd contains just enough to get us by for a few days. That is me living in the Uk planing for the worse and yet here were are talking about so called British people working, living, visiting a part of the world which has been in turmoil for at least 4 years and not having made any contingency plans if the crap hits the fan. Thats not me turning on the so called evacuees for poitical reasons , its me calling them out for been so f-ing stupid in the first place, just as I do for idiots who travel abraod without travel insurance.
I have no problem with helping those in need, but when they lack basic commonsense in which not to help themselves first, then that takes the f-ing biscuit.
Further to my last the BBC has Amar on the line who whislt living in Scotland decided to visit his homeland in which to visit family (no doubt for ramadan) whislt the country has been on melt down for a while
https://i.postimg.cc/9FBDqZ0B/Opera-Snapshot-2023-04-24-203438-www-bbc-co-uk.png
Now as I stated above, I prefer France 24 because it doesn’t embellish its news reports with adjectives. Now look again at that BBC report. That is how the BBC operates, instead of been impartial it pushes the reader in the direction it wants them to go down, which of late has been to disparage the British, be it people, its institutions or as we have seen of late the Government. If I wasn’t paying £159 a year for that Luxury, I wouldn’t give a toss, but I do (renewed last month) and thus I am most concerned about how the so called public funded BBC isn’t as impartial as its mandate requires it to be.
Bravo.
AGREED, if your that stupid, your not worth saving, and
@ 80 what is he going to give the UK, as his son of a Doctor is on strike,
https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/us-france-evacuate-diplomats-sudan-battles-rage-2023-04-23/
Sky news have just released more information about the operation. Sounds like a very complex scenario. As always. Its been completed safely and with the upmost professionalism. 🇬🇧
What isn’t clear is why the US was able to get their guys out a day before using helicopters, whilst the UK was a day later and several hours by land. I would assume the embasseys would be close together, as that is normally the case in most countries. The situation has been getting worse for several weeks, so youu would assume troops and equipment would have been pre-deployed to neighgourng countries as a precaution. I guess we will have to wait to find out.
The embassy’s are not close together. The British embassy is much closer to worst of the fighting in the city, making the extraction much more dangerous.
Ah ok, I assumed they would be as most countries have all their embassy close together for ease of access and security.
Credit where it’s due they got everyone out, I am just curious as to why the approach Vs the US one.
Just very different scenarios.
What’s the difference?
Different embassy locations. Different number of pax to get out. Unsecure Airport. Plenty on the news about it now for you to read/watch.
US had the same issues around unsecure airport and their embassy wasn’t exactly in a safe location either. The number of people taken out was roughly the same in both cases. The US also announced that they assessed it wasn’t safe to get their people out by road and so went out by helicopter, instead we used the risker approach. I suspect it is the lack of air to air refueling of our Chinooks that led to the different approach.
I feel you are just looking to poke holes in the operation.
Of course and so should you and the media. If there are holes, they need to be addressed and lessons learnt, if there aren’t then great (that will never be the case as there is always learning opportunities from any event). From the reports we got lucky with a lull in the fighting occuring. Having to get the people out by force over land could have been a nightmare situation and why the US said they considered it too risky.
The issue with our armed forces seems to always have is the media only reports on problems when deaths occur, as we saw with the unarmoured vehicles in Iraq/afgan. The issues were know before but kept secret or just not reported. Our armed forces deserve better.
If lack of air-to-air refueling was the cause, it’s a fairly cheap thing to fix, but won’t happen unless pressure is put on the government to fix it.
This operation involved 1600 members of the UK Armed Force’s, planned and executed at very short notice. We don’t have every single capability and nor does any other nation. France doesn’t even own Chinook helicopters. This was a very successful operation. We don’t know all the details of how it was executed, or what capabilities where used. The airport is not secure so that makes it very difficult to extract British nationals working in the country. Operations like this is why we work with allies. All nations can bring different capabilities. Sudan is a land locked nation very far from friendly military stations. The British response has been very well-executed.
Yeah for sure, it’s just the UN mission got attacked only days before, and so a long road extraction is very high risk and could have gone badly wrong. No question the guys on the ground did an amazing job. I’m just asking why the approach and are there lessons to learn, as this type of operation has happened at least 3 times in the recent past.
Wasn’t it the EU Ambassador, not the UN mission that was attacked?
There is a french base to the west, N’Djamena at 1900km and one to the east, Djibouti at 1200km to the east
👍
Well said, as always.
👍
Ha. The BBC have just admitted in their news that a “handful” of personnel are in Khartoum. The support operation to put them there is ignored.
MANPAD’s & other AA defences in theatre make heli extract look very risky indeed. It’s quick and looks cool but comes with its own increased risks over ground insertion. Have you not seen Black Hawk Down?!
The importance of having the ability to quickly dismount when under fire cannot be overstated. You can’t do that from Heli.
Both options have their own merits and risks. Both options worked out fine. Difference in doctrine really. Equipment will factor in to that though… granted.
Agreed no risk free approach. I just got curious when the US publically stated they believed it was too risky to do it via land. I assume they have decent intel on the risks of each solution and I am guessing they considered the helicopter option resulted in less time on ground for things to go wrong but who knows.
I have served in many parts of the world. Never known ‘western’ embassies to be located very close together specifically for security.
Cyprus proving its worth again. It really is a important base.
Gonna hazard a professional opinion here on the concept of ops. Half Sqn, 22, insert with US SF, then make their way to Embassy compound/designated RV collection point (will need to be a secure area initially prior to moving off) and pick up the diplomatic package. Vehicles used will already have been allocated and secure (you don’t just turn up and hope for random transport for 30 plus civvies and 30 plus operators.
At the same time the C130 (designated pax only) and the Atlas (with 2 Jackals minimum from G Company SFSG) land and the Jackals (with a JTAC) move off to overwatch the route for the extraction group. Remaining pax from one of the strike Companies SFSG secure the LZ for the foreseeable (with more elements of G coy). Also possible other half Sqn 22 on the ground, quads and LSV (or other arranged vehicles already in situ ready as a QRF)
Fast air on standby (from Akrotiri) and 2 x Rifle Companies from 16 on standby, Atlas on the ground and ready to fly forward deployed (location unknown to me but be aware how close Egypt and in fact Kenya are) in case the SHTF.
Extraction group move (uneventfully) to the air head, load the civvies pax onto the C130, everyone folds back into the inner perimeter, C130 takes off, civvies and some SF, remaining load onto Atlas and extract. If necessary the Jackals are stripped and destroyed to ensure max payload of pax onto Atlas. Home for tea and medals.
Not sure about all this…….just a guess…….cheers.
Love it, and with your experience quite likely. Respect.
I was speculating myself who would be involved. Assume RWW ( now E ) also involved regards liaison with any “friends” from FCO at the embassy and securing, destroying assets.
Agreed mate, quite a few organisations would be moving and shaking prior to the op going live.
Thanks AB. Would the Jackals really be stripped and destroyed? Not brought back?
Prob not but as numbers to be extracted can always increase either on route or at the initial pick up, its always an option to leave wagons if necessary. However that planning consideration also includes the possibility of bad PR if the bad guys start to claim they destroyed the wagons. The considerations for these type of operations are large and varied, and a lot of mission command is given to the local commander on the ground.
Thanks, yes I was wondering about the PR aspect should some local militia commander decide to picture himself atop of a destroyed UKSF vehicle and claim credit for the ‘prize ‘.
Thanks.
The question now is what next, there appears to be thousands of western passport holders in the country, that are going to need support.
And most of their details and locations will be recorded and logged by the simple use of mobile phone mate! They will be told to make their way to location “A” with minimum luggage, and stand by for a contact to meet them (trusted local or diplomatic local employee or otherwise) they are told to hunker down, do not attract attention to themselves and to stand by! Plans will be in place mate! Lads will be in staging posts ready to deploy.
We will see. Normally this stuff is organised by the embassy staff, but when that has been taken out of the country, the ability to organise local resources becomes a lot harder (even basics of paying people, as normally the embassy has cash ready for such an event). It’s not practical to expect to get everyone out, especially as most people should have got themselves out a while ago, when it was clear things were going south, but something will need to be done for the ones that are in the most dangerous areas. What that will look like is another question.
Agreed. A lot of this responsibility is put onto the people wanting extraction. They are expected to make themselves known, comply with any instructions given and to keep a very low profile. Plans are always on the shelves for these situations, it just depends how often they are dusted off and table topped exercised. Cheers.
And when West has moved out we’ll see who moves in?
The UN probably. I suspect there will be an African led UN peace keeper mission deployed at the end of this.
Water Aid
Sudan has always been one of Africa’s many basket cases. Many of her peoples are caught in a social state somewhere between pre European colonisation and 21st Century society taking the worst from both. The results are corrupt, greedy, incompetent governments with no interest in the welfare of their ordinary citizens-in short a total **** up! This kind of military op started with decolonisation in the Congo 1960. I remember refugees pouring in through the then Northern Rhodesia south to safe havens. The rescuers then, apart from Belgian paras, included Saffer mercenaries led by Brit Colonel Mad Mike Hoare. I met his son in Durban. Some of Mike’s recruits played snooker and poker in the Empire billiard saloon where we schoolboys played “sticks” much in fear of being discovered by our parents! We lived opposite the Belgian Consul in Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia from where much of the refugee rescue was co-ordinated. The Consul had 3 daughters, one of whom was very pretty!!
Things stick in ones mind..
PS there were several interventions by mercenaries and the Belgians over a period of years from Independence in 1960. My late Brother-in-Law who worked on a Copper mine in Northern Rhodesia/Zambia went overland into the breakaway Province of Katanga, on a rescue mission. Also early on in this period, the UN head Dag Hammarskjold was killed on a mission when his plane was shot out of the sky by persons unknown
Believe he was enroute to sort out the clusterfcuk after the UN put the Irish army contingent in and failed to act on their action reports.
To be fair, that clusterfuck was fully aided and abetted by the Irish DOD screwing over the deployed troops. Poor grunts barely had WW2 surplus but fought well.
There is an absolutely brilliant film about that on Netflix, “The Siege of Jadotville”.
There is a scene when the Irish have just arrived and are trying to introduce themselves to the locals where the commander goes into a bar with his number 2. The French merc commander is in the bar some of his men. During an icy exchange the Frenchmen points out that he has never heard of any Irish Army achievements in combat. I always think of Waterloo as about 1/3 of Wellington’s Army was Irish and boy did the Irish stand up well against overwhelming odds at Jadotville.
As an aside the survivors of Jadotville were treated appallingly when they got home, accused of being cowardice by the Irish press…
Cheers CR
They were indeed, an argument that is still running today, mainly because the DOD and the Government of the day did not want to admit how badly the situation went so it was easier to blame the on the ground personnel.
As an aside, while Jadotville has rightly got more attention for what they did, that deployment had far more active combat for the Irish forces than just that. For example the airport was almost lost and even the USAF transport bringing in the Irish troops were hit while landing.
The Irish also fought as part of the French armies in the 18th & 19th centuries as well as excellent Irish in British service, so the French guy really was showing his ignorance.
Howsit CR!
“One third of Wellington’s army was Irish “…as was Wellington himself born in Dublin although of Anglo Irish stock. My Grandad(Presbyterian born in the Shankill!) who saw Irish Troops return to Belfast in 1902 after the Anglo-Boer War always said that Ireland won Britain’s Wars for her! An exaggeration no doubt but they were fine soldiers
I too thought the same.
The continuity folk in that filum should have picked up on that. As my family were all involved from the time of the war of 1812, Napoleaon, Crimea, Boers wars, ww1 and 2.
They did not lose a man in jadotville enand that engagement. is taught in military schools around the world for the importance of accurate controlled fire against a large formation.
Hi Davey and Mark. I should imagine it was very difficult to get any reliable intelligence out quickly in those days but I am sure the Irish Army did their very best despite equipment issues. Everything I have said is from memory. I cannot remember the actual sequence of events exactly. independence was 1960? I lived in the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland from Feb 1961 to December 1963 when we arrived in Durban. Congo events including the mutiny of the Congolese Army, the secession of Katanga under Patrick Lumumba and the terrible events that played out during that time saw operations continue well into the 60’s. I remember the movie with Richard Burton and others about the Mercenaries interventions and the mess that was the Congo after Belgium cut and run leaving the Congolese with no proper training and infrastructure. this retreat was repeated all over Africa with disastrous consequences. If only the colonisers had been able to stretch handovers over a longer period to properly prepare the people for self government! Ian Smith and Abel Muzorewa could have created a model for the rest of the continent had they been assisted to stay in power during a longer transition. Instead Zimbabwe got the twisted tyrant Mugabe who completely wrecked that beautiful country while he lived like a modern day King Louis with his people starving.
Anyway, what if’s are pointless
Geoff always great to hear your dits and memories! Cheers mate respect.
Hi Airborne. Nice to hear from you and thanks for your kind remarks.
Seconded.
Thanks for the experiences mate, as always.
Thanks Daniele🙂 I’m not always sure if some are repeat stories😉 Turning 74 next month😁
Kind Regards
You mean the c130 that the austerity government insist we don’t need? To be replaced by best wishes and fairy dust when needed in future.
We’ve hung people for treason who’ve done less damage to the country than these gimps.
Once again the invaluable Herc C130J proves its worth. The RAF and the MoD really should find the money to keep them flying, our SF trust them and they are more suited to their role than the A400M
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Absolutely. We’ve done that record to death and so so many here agree mate.
In my previous life I and Mrs GB where counted as Govt Staff if we needed to get out of countries we lived in…Naples in Italy if Vesuvius went up and a Middle East country that was a bit iffy at times.
The basic premise for evac was the same.
Sit tight until told otherwise.
When safe to do so you drive to a pre determined Evac Point where you get airlifted out or get on a Ship.
To get to the evac point you either make your own way in a convoy with other Govt Staff or some nice people from Hereford or Poole come along to help with the convoy if its a bit hairy.
Now that I’m a civvy expat its fend for yourself time. (Unlike before I cannot get tooled up!) Those expats who work in certain iffy countries know the risks and accept them along with the fat pay cheque you get for being there.
If you need to get out quick there are a few things you need to know and do.
Good to see you got your priorities sorted!
Exactly, mate. It’s easy for folks on the news saying British nationals are being forgotten about. But they have to take some self responsibility. They chose to live/work in Sudan and accepted the risks when signing on the dotted line.
Just watched the BBC news at 6pm.
Their “agenda” is so bloody obvious it’s shameful.
They followed that by emphasising how support for the monarchy is declining and amongst 18 to 24 year olds most don’t support it.
Yawn after yawn.
Yeah mate, saw it. I must admit I watch Sky News more these day’s. They are far from perfect, but they do broadcast better defence related news.
National survey of 4400 people ???? how is that a national survey, there are 26000 students in a single London university
Pitiful.
Strangely, a national market research survey needs only 1,100 to get an accurate national picture. The 1,100 quota is very precise, in setting the correct proportions of men/woman, old/young, employed/unemployed, socio-economic status (AB, C1/C2, DE)
etc., etc.
If you poll 5,000 rather than 1,100, the difference in results will be less than 1%. That is why the sample size for polls is around 1,100.
The Panorama piece was somewhat more balanced, the bit on the news thought with “we all are livening in poverty” was just daft. Clearly no idea what poverty is.
Thats because you are living in poverty if you meet this definition.
“You have 55% or less of median total available resources – in effect creating a poverty line relative to what the median family has available to spend”
Because its a % of a median for all of the UK you will always have people in poverty. You will never be able to end it…ever…because someone somewhere is always going to have 55% or less of a median. Its a fudge definition used by certain interested parties ( small p as it covers Westminster, charities and other social/class warriors) to hit people over the head with.
To be fair to the BBC they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They are criticised by those on the far right of the Tory party for impartiality (or the lack of it) yet their DG Richard Sharp is a political appointment, a man who has donated £400,000 to the Tories and who is being investigated for arranging a huge loan from one of his chums for Boris Johnson
The BBC do make excellent wildlife programes. Unfortuately their latest offering “Wild Isles” was spolt because the last in the series was not broadcast. Apparently it was about rewilding, sewage overflowing in our rivers, farmers grubbing up orchards post brexit etc and Sharp was persuaded that it was too impartial to be broadcast. By his chums on the Tory right of course.
Yes, I agree, and I watch and enjoy lots of them. My issue is always with the news department and what they do, and more importantly, do not, say. I recommend a book called “The impartial liar” by one of their retired news correspondents.
I think you mean “The Noble Liar” by Robin Aitken. I havent read the book, I prefer military history and UFO books. I don’t think this is the right forum to discuss politics, either left, right or centre – but in the main I think BBC News reports all sides fairly, with the occasional hiccup.
Notably, when Trump was President the Washington Post determined that he had told 30,573 outright lies and misleading claims in 4 years!
Not everybody is enamoured of the scandal-prone, unelected, landed German family (Saxe-Coburg-Battenburg aka Windsor) that we have as our royals and as such maybe the Beeb was being impartial to report so
You’re right, I got the name wrong.
No, not everyone is, but the majority are, and that was what was ignored in their agenda filled report.
Deep joy, once again we can agree to disagree, thank you Daniele!
Back on topic, it seems that following the latest COBRA meeting chaired by Rishi Sunak, in the last hour the Beeb are reporting that we have managed to evacuate British people from Sudan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65371585
I agree with you on the UFO books mate. Got plenty myself. Currently working through Richard Dolans massive 3 part historical record, from 40s to current.
The gradual release of information or “indoctrination” before full disclosure continues judging by some of the comments coming out of the Pentagon.
I think we all need to be selective about the sources because the has been – and probably still is – a lot of disinformation and debunking going on about UFO’s. But there are some good documentaries on YouTube, particularly on UFO’s and nuclear weapons bases. I’m sure the truth will come out eventually
Hmmm I’m not sure, not in my lifetime. The public wouldn’t accept it. Look at the panic in the pandemic with toilet rolls.🙄
Gun wrote:
Friend of mine was posted there, so I flew out for a fortnights holiday. Really enjoyed my time. I would drive in with her on a morning and then leave by the main gate cut through the short tunnel to the metro stop outside the camp and then travel into the city, fantastic time, also allowed me to travel all over the gaff. But then I love Italy and have spent a lot of time there (including climbing Monte Bianco aka Mont Blanc)
I got tear gassed at a football match in Naples. Crazy night 😆
Clears out the sinuses …Loved watching Napoli play. Went to a fair few matches with local mates whilst there. Stood on the Curva with the Ultras who despite the press are pretty friendly and look after you.
Napoli v Juve , 70k seat stadium and everyone inside had tickets all 120k of us according to the local plod. It was a little bit emotional!
Spot on mate! I know this may sound sad, but I travel a heck of a lot in my current job, UK only and I still have a fully packed grab grab in the boot of my car!!!!! Normal stuff you would expect for a 36 hour on foot extraction……lol
If the UK still had a helicopter carrier like HMS Ocean, then placing it in the Red Sea, just off the coast of Sudan, would let you be nimble in picking up groups of UK nationals when the brief chances came along.
If we happend to have an asset sat in the Red sea, then yes it would be an option. But if it had to deploy from the UK, by the time it arrived on station it would be to late. Airpower can response much quicker.
Yeah we just left it parked there. any of the landing support ships could do this role. Ocean would have broken down on the way
Khartoum is 500 miles from the Red Sea. It wouldn’t be possible, let alone less risky than using the airport.
Are all the British nationals in Khartoum? Some are doubtless elsewhere in the country.
RN are on the move mate.
Good, because this is unlikely to be a “one size fits all” operation. If the airport is secure & if British nationals can safely drive to it, then flying them out on fixed wing (C-130J, A400M) is for the best. However, some people may be elsewhere in Sudan. Even those in far parts of the capitol may not be able to safely pass the fighting to get to the airport. This is where ship borne helicopters can nip in & pick up nationals from safe spots away from the airport & any fighting. I think the Americans had a refuel on the way for their helicopters. If we find a quiet safe spot between the coast & the capitol to set up a temporary refuel point, that may fix the range issue.
Cough….
Cardigan Bay and Lancaster headed for Port Sudan
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/sudan-war-map-fighting-uk-today-b2325549.html
Well those British citizens that are saying they have been abandoned to the media should actually watch the news and see that they haven’t been abandoned at all!🙄 They probably expect a nice British sqaudie to knock on the door and escort them home!
The optics look poor because other countries are flying numerous short haul shuttles from Djibouti. Our policy is in line with the US; they have only committed to pulling out their diplomats.
Only people who chose not to live there out of choice. so if your working in that country you get pulled out, the rest leave well alone you made your bed
Sudan is on the FO don’t travel list and yet people still want the cavalry to come over the hill.
Fair point
Cheap flights from United Kingdom cities to Khartoum
Prices refer to lowest available return flight, and are per person for the dates shown. The flights are subject to seat availability as well as variations in the price and tariffs.
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wonder if uk govt would ever say that, we are not pulling out uk passport holders. poss 4000 ??? uk passport holders out there usa 16000 ???
No it won’t happen but these people knowingly went to live and work in a basket case of a country despite the warnings and now when the shit hits the fan they bleat they have been ‘abandoned’ by the govt to the press!
uk govt has just said they are prioritising people with children. quite amazed people were having their family holidays out there a country removed from the terror list in 2020. flights to Khartoum from many uk airports just had a google. if it turns nasty on the ground they may have a longer staycation than expected
In fairness a lot of them are aid workers, often medics, working for aid organisations part-funded by HMG. Others are visiting family for the reasons we all do – weddings, funerals,, religious holidays, family needs, etc.
If they are Brit citizens in danger, we generally man-up and go get them out, not blame them for being there.
Well, your passport doesn’t entitle you to a rescue package, so any initiative would be considered a humanitarian action. Many UK and US people work for aid agencies who expect to have to cope with violence as part of the work package; typically they would want to stay. If there are people who are visiting relatives then I guess the question would be did the foreign office issue advice not to go before they set off?
think we need to re think what the offer is for dual nationals who visit hotspots in future
It looks like all governments and the NGOs were blind sided by the speed of events. There are some voices saying ‘I told you so’ but these views don’t seem to have registered with the FO. I don’t think we should be offering limitless travel insurance with your passport. But that said if the situation becomes a humanitarian crisis then its all hands to the pumps which seems to be happening now.
good thoughts Paul, UK likely has dual nationals in any future hotspots who may have travelled there against FO travel advice. lets say the Philippians kicked off, we can’t guarantee extraction. i think my main objection is the purpose of the visit if it is a cheap holiday in a conflict zone its less impressive.
The British army will soon be packing up from the barracks!
Watched the News in various channels, read the comments and I just think WTF are we doing.
The BBC is UK bashing again, not one single word about why 4,000 UK citizens have been stupid enough to go there and expect to be rescued.
We have U.K Government employees who are sent abroad to look after our interests so we have an absolute imperative to ensure their safety and evacuate them.
But 4,000 folks decide to completely ignore the FO warning to not go there and do so anyway.
When will we ever learn ? Lessons to be learn’t.
test
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