In a deal worth an estimated $957m, the U.S. has approved the sale of 3,000 AGM-179A Joint Air-to-Ground Missiles to the UK for its Apache helicopter fleet.
In addition to JAGM, the Hellfire K1 and Hellfire Romeo missiles will also be fully qualified and integrated onto British Apache AH-64E aircraft.
According to the sales notice:
“The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of the United Kingdom of Joint Air-to-Ground Missiles (JAGM) for an estimated cost of $957.4 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.
The Government of the United Kingdom has requested to buy three thousand (3,000) Joint Air-to-Ground Missiles (JAGM), AGM-179A. Also included are dummy missiles; technical assistance; publications; integration support; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated program cost is $957.4 million.This proposed sale will support the foreign policy goals and national security objectives of the United States by improving the security of a NATO Ally that is a force for political stability and economic progress in Europe.
The proposed sale will improve the United Kingdom’s capability to meet current and future threats. The United Kingdom will use the enhanced capability to strengthen its homeland defense and deter regional threats. The United Kingdom will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment and services into its armed forces. The principal contractor will be the Lockheed Martin Corporation, Orlando, FL. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.”
it says- Also included are dummy missiles;
lets hope the MOD does not pay the same price as the real ones,
lol? . also it does not state when we will get these items, hopefully sooner, rather than later, just an after thought..
Lockheed are working on a longer range version and triple sensor instead of 2 sensors. Maybe we’re getting in before prices go up. I remember the apache being a tony Blair purchase like the qe carriers.
I lose track, at one point the triple sensor version wasn’t given the required funds, so it’s back on now I presume, or maybe it was just transferred over to the substantial update in progress you have referred to?
Apache was purchased by Major government, delivered under Blair
Correct
I remember, I think it was Portillo making the announcement to buy Apache in the Commons. There was a surprise, if memory serves me correctly, that all 67 originally order were going to be Longbow. By the sounds of it, they’d originally planned to slave some As with the D version Longbows but a last minute decision was made to buy all Ds, is that right?
jim thankyou for that correction. whilst accepting war is bloody i thought at the time that was brutal kit
Your welcome.
QE was really Brown not Blair.
Ironically Brown wouldn’t sign off on them in the Blair No 10 years.
Good to see UK industry being supported, again.
Real pitty we did not get brimstone on them, especially when we are paying $1 billion for missiles. I understand why they did not go it given the extreme cost of getting any US contractor to integrate anything.
There is a positive to this. I suspect part of the thinking behind common missiles across platforms is to save money by ordering less overall. Which is fine up until you hit a major war and need all your capabilities and they have to fight over limited stocks.
Agreed but if you are going to buy the unmodified MOTS US article then you need to accept buying the add ons that go with that?
Actually I’d go further and say this was clear thinking to get something into service at a reasonable pace.
1000 rounds is nothing to sniff at when combined with the various other systems UK are putting in play.
If we tried to get integration I’d be betting on 2030 IS dates.
We see this improvement while UK is retiring the last whisteling frog legs… Times are changing…
https://www.opex360.com/2023/10/25/la-british-army-retire-ses-derniers-helicopteres-gazelle-du-service/
Serious doubts on where we are going with the looming threat of Trump election and its consequences about Nato: either UK wil be a protectorate, either will be really indépendant, while all European security architecture is collapsing under our eyes.
https://meta-defense.fr/2023/10/25/donald-trump-retrait-otan-2024/
I think we’re at a point when we can either support British Industry, or get value for money out of a tight procurement budget – but not both. Using the defence budget as an alternative to having a proper industrial strategy is why the UK repeatedly ends up with unique snowflake kit that costs a fortune and is decades late.
More terrible procurement!
We’re integrating the superior and home-grown Brimstone / Spear 3 across Typhoon, F35, Protector with the British Army now also taking a keen interest. JAGM is the result of pressure and scare tactics from Boeing, nothing more!
To the people who say ‘just buy off the shelf from the US’ well i’m afraid the result is being at the mercy of both exchange rates and their big defence contractors making it as difficult as possible to use UK weapons.
I agree, the Army is terrible at securing its industrial base compared to navy and air force and its suffering for it now. Continuous manufacture or armoured vehicles should be a easy compared to warships or combat aircraft.
In the past there was too much emphasis on fanning about with RR engines to make a bespoke design, like RR needs help with engines instead of focusing on something like missiles that have major export potential.
Army leadership has always lacked foresight, now they wheel out the very same muppets responsible for FRES on sky news to tell us China is not the real threat and we need armoured divisions to guard poor Germany from the Russian bogeyman.
It’s crazy the one of the worlds largest producer of armoured vehicles is a British company and the army refuse to buy any from them. Only accept JV production from foreign firms with BAE.
The army isn’t known for its prowess in procuring anything. Look at the SA80 rifle. It’s dogsh*t, so of course the army will buy it in bulk!
To be fair the SA80 now is a decent weapon suitable for your average infantry soldier! Yes previously it was a pile of cheap aluminium and plastic pretending to be a weapon, but now it’s good enough! However give it 5 more years and it’s gone methinks!!!
Actually the SA80 since the A2 2001) has gained a reputation as a solid infantry weapon ., the A3 is even better, the problem it has, is the quality issues it suffered for the first 14 years of its service continue to to cloud it. Personally I have never had an issue with the weapon and I could hit a figure 12 target at 300 metres with iron sights no problem (But to be fair I have always been a good shoot and been in numerous shooting teams during my service.) don’t get me wrong it is showing its age(production stopped in 1994) and needs to be replaced with a newer generation weapon system with less maintenance and supply issues) but since it’s inception it has seen service in numerous conflicts and has done the job it was designed to do.
No other country has ever voluntarily adopted it. In some cases the MOD couldn’t even give it away. It’s universally known as awful.
Chris wrote:
That is true, but as i mentioned its initial teething problems (Mag, mag release, gas plug, retaining , stoppages and general build quality) coloured its image in the negative, and as I mentioned since the A2, those issues have been resolved and it now comes across as one of the most reliable weapons in its class. Also the weapons market is a lot more competitive than it used to be. Where up to the 60s and 70s the main suppliers were:
US
Soviet Union
UK
France
Today thanks to politics (Regard’s how Western nation became fussy whom they sold to) others decided to build their own arms industry so today we can add:
India
China
Israel
Turkey
Iran
Pakistan
Germany
Italy
Spain
To the mix, So why should somebody purchase a Bullpup weapon during the 90s which was receiving such a bad press when they could purchase weapons from others for not even half the price no questions asked. Its really easy to berate the Uk, but if we stand back we find a lot of other factors which contribute to the issue at hand. I mean this is an article about how the Uk has picked the JAGM missile over the Brimstone , with the latter not only been the superior weapon, but cheaper as well. But back to the SA80 of today and that is, it is not the weapon it was up to 2001
You could probably add a few central European countries to that new list as well- I understand that the new infantry rifles coming out of Czechia and Poland are pretty good too.
Not to mention Belgium, Australia, S Korea, Austria, Serbia, Japan etc
So Chris, is your only metric for success export? In that case, the F22 is the least successful fighter in history, small production run, no export, cancelled follow on order etc.
I’ve used the L85A2 on three combat tours, I fired 1000s of rounds and the only stoppages I had were for mag changes. I’ve seen it hit targets in combat at 500m and I’ve seen it in CWC – as a basic infantry weapon it’s genuinely excellent.
In Iraq I was working with the USMC and they genuinely thought it was better than the M4 they were using and I agreed with them. The M4, though light and ergonomic lacked range, lacked punch and was inaccurate – its barrel also degraded quickly with prolonged firing.
The biggest thing holding back the SA80 series is the single ejection port option meaning it can never be ambidextrous.
In fairnes with the modern sights on the L85 the single ejection port is not that big a deal. Using the Red Dot CGB sights you are high enough off the body that a slight tilt of the weapon system prevents the cocking handle giving you a bit of plastic surgery/dentistry. More important is the lack of manufacturing and small user base which means even the A3’s are a bit beat and will in the next decade need replacing due to their physical age.
As I recall they eventually gave it to HK to fix the jamming issue.
H&K at that time we’re bought by royal ordnance so the reason they did it is because it was still the people who made it when H&K was later sold they took control of the drawings for it so now when we order new receivers they come from H&K
No other country except Jamaica, Zimbabwe, Bolivia, and Mozambique actually.
Not exactly the A team of Countries Dern, unfortunately in its abysmal A1 configuration
(like the kid who was a dick head at school) the reputation is cast in stone for life.
Still, the A3 is a really solid rifle, it will do the job until someone eventually signs off on a replacement with a 80,000 order…
I was very impressed with the quality of the new A3 receivers.
Whether or not there the A-Team the point was “Zero exports” is simply not true.
Given as aid to try and gain export sales so does not really count !
Blair gave some to Jamaica and Zimbabwe loosely described as aid !
£900 for the A 3 paint job and new rail seems expensive when a colt M 4 is $1099 ?
They decided to pay a fortune for a pile of garbage because it was British.
Jack wrote:
The weapon of the moment is the HK416, derived the M4 , , but the problem with the M4 ,M16 and AR 15 was the stoner gas system which overheated in firefights. So HK looked at the problem and decided on putting a short stroke gas piston in it, they did and the weapon was that good it was picked up by US SF, then the Navy Seals used to take out Osma, selected by Germany as their new infantry weapon and then France. Not bad eh, oh and that short stroke gas piston its the one out of the SA 80,
Private Americans literally own all these weapons you speak of. The L85 is government mandated garbage. Everyone who knows it and picks up a soft shooting DI gun will tell you exactly that. The UK (royal marines) is moving away from it back to DI. Modern gas systems are unbeatable in weight and reliability. The AR platform is also offered in the piston variety, but it’s not popular for the same reasons.
Technically, the short stroke Gas system is the one out of the AR-18, and in turn the L85 is effectively an AR-18 that was made into a bullpup rifle. Here’s the bolt carrier assembly for an AR-18, look familiar?
Before anyone rubbishes the AR-18 I’ll add that the FN SCAR, F2000, G36 and HK416 (as you pointed out) are all modifications of the AR-18 design (although the 416 uses a AR-15 bolt carrier for reasons).
Really Russian ground forces are the real threat now ?..blimey The Ukraine war must be a massive Maskirovka to lul the west into thinking the Russia army cannot beat a nation a 10th of its size….clearly the massive build up of china’s navel forces is also a play to get the west to weaken its Eastern European Commitments….we will suddenly be faced with a newly regenerated 8th and 20th guards armies backed up by an all new 1st and 2nd,guards tank armies followed valiantly by the 3rd red banner army….all sweeping through Germany with 300,000 men and 20,000 MBTs…quick the army needs to regenerate the 50,000 strong BAOR…bugger the navy they just need to get back into doing ASW work in the GIUK gap..Knot was right flog the carriers and leave ‘em with a few frigates….
You watch sky news too 😀
Good laugh that lad . . Nice fairy tale
But you never know……….alright we do…Russian could not fight its way out of Finland if it made that mistake, let alone the rest of NATO….NATO has around 3.5million people under arms all professionals..around 2million soldiers of which are sitting around Europe ..Russia is probably lucky if it has 50,000professional solders left backed by 200,000 conscripts and draftees. The only viable threat Russia has to Europe is Nuclear or asymmetrical warfare..and possibly random attacks by it SSN fleet before they are hunted down…none of which requires the British army to deploy a couple of armour divisions into Europe….desperate for funding to get out of their really bad procurement decisions.
Yeah Russia had about 20% of the population of European NATO and 10% of the economy. Europe has the biggest industrial base outside of China and some of the best trained forces in the world and that’s jut Europe. The USA doubles all of that. Mexico would be a substantially larger conventional threat than Russia. In 50 years Russia will be tiny.
I read a piece about the impact the war will have on Russian population size. Thousands upon thousands of dead or crippled child producing men. Thousands upon thousands who have left the country taking their child bearing female with them (or to follow them at some point). In all several million of their next generation producers have gone.
They will have the additional strain of the resulting aging population supporting so many long term disabled.
Putin truly is a master strategist.
Yeah, guys a genius 😀
Can you see the concern on my face?
Great stuff, the demographic time bomb will do for Russia and probably China. We just need to hang in there until the 2050s and hope neither causes any further difficulties in the time between now and 2050. Putin and probably Xi will be long dead by then but their legacies of being ruthless dictators will live on long passed their moving to live with the devil in hell.
And Putin is doing his very best to accelerate the depopulation of Russia.
You’ve worked with Belgium soldiers… 😉
POETS day had a new meaning for them.
Interesting article on the subject.
October 24, 2023 at 3:41 PM
“BELFAST — A new report from the UK’s Defence Committee criticises Britain’s Indo-Pacific military presence, judging it “limited” and the UK’s strategy “unclear” in the face of a potential conflict with China over Taiwan.
The UK will be unable to play a major role in the region without a “major commitment” of new defence spending, equipment and personnel or “potentially rebalancing existing resources,” according to the report published on Monday.
“With the conflict over Taiwan potentially only years away, the Government and the UK Armed Forces must ensure that they have plans for the UK’s response, as currently, the UK’s regional military presence in the Indo-Pacific remains limited and the strategy to which it contributes is unclear,” the report stated.
The lawmakers suggested that in the near term, China “appears” to want to “confront Taiwan” through conventional military means or grey zone attacks. By way of response, they call on the government to develop a “cross-government” Indo-Pacific strategy that should include plans drawn up by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for a “comprehensive defence and diplomatic response” to deal with China’s growing military threat.”
LINK
Basically anyone with even a basic grasp of U.K. forces knew that trying to play battleships with the big boys in the pacific is a non starter.
U.K. at most could hold a couple of islands.
Without a permanent bases for thousands of army, equipment and – battle group of ships in range with air wing of fighters, AAR, intel etc the U.K. is weeks away from even showing up.
Then the lack of movers to actually get there is another problem. Then making to somewhere useful while allowing for loses of some movers.
Sure some can go by air but again it’s movers and lack of anything heavy, heavy supplies etc. again prepare for loses to get close to the action.
The U.K. can do something’s to help just not lots quickly or sustain it.
Agreed. And I somehow doubt that little will change after this repot to bolster our armed forces to the levels required.
Here is the report.
House of Commons Defence Committee UK Defence and the Indo-Pacific Eleventh Report of Session 2022–23 Report, together with formal minutes relating to the report Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 17 October 2023
There’s an article today in the Telegraph on UK Apache procurement – they point out that the decision to build a grand total of 59 special UK versions at Westland resulted in each aircraft costing ‘three to five times as much’ as an off the shelf AH-64D model, and while the order was placed in 1996, they didn’t reach service until 2005, with further availability problems caused by needing a unique spares infrastructure in place of the massive worldwide supply chain that was in place for US standard machines.
No amount of exchange rate fluctuations even scratch the surface of the insane costs of this hubris. Defence procurement is treated as a jobs scheme first, with national defence almost as an afterthought. Just look at the way the press releases are always worded – job numbers first, and capability vaguely described in the last paragraphs.
Ajax is arguable another example – An off the shelf product (ASCOD) then messed about with to make a UK-specific version that is much heavier and with all sorts of unique problems that don’t happen with the original product.
UK defence is suffering because of a political inability to accept that the UK is not a world-beating industrial power any more – we never win the serious export contracts that make these projects pay off (if it wasn’t for the Saudis buying our stuff, a lot of UK arms exports would have gone to the wall decades ago).
Interesting article, it’s why I think that when it comes to the procurement of the army medium helicopter, the best option is Blackhawk OTS rather than gold plating or re – engineering another design.
Yet another nonsensical army procurement. What is wrong with them?
So how much would it be to integrate and then buy Brimstone? Would it be twice of the cost of this decision by the Army to use a missile already integrated? We moaned about the decision to put RR engine in Phantoms and Mk1 Apaches etc making them much more expensive than they needed to be.Just perhaps this is a case of getting more bang for our bucks!
LMM was $75 million for wildcat but that was also to develop the missile.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lmm-precision-guided-missile/?cf-view
However this involves Boeing so integration cost is probably something on the region of 10 gizilion dollars 😀
Please se the reply to Robert.
The cost of buying Brimstone is around 1/3 the price of JAGM. Unless integration costs twice the cost of 1000 missiles, this is another terrible army procurement decision. Integration really shouldn’t be complicated given that Brimstone was designed from the outset to be easily integrated onto platforms already cleared for Hellfire and that MBDA has already done the preliminary work when it was viewed as obvious that the MoD would want to integrate Brimstone on Apache. Brimstone missile on Apache AH-64E – YouTube
That’s before you take into account the benefits from further export orders to Apache users.
👍
People moan when we buy off the shelf, and moan when we don’t.
Some people might and I would have thought by now you would know I only want the best kit. Brimstone, essentially the alternative, is already integrated into Typhoon and will soon be carried by the Protector. The army also has the capability to use it in the SSM role so it is part of the army mix. It has a longer range than the JAGM with similar speed. I don’t know this for fact but given most recent costs for Brimstone it may be cheaper. So why buy the JAGM.🙄
I agree, Brimstone is a superior weapon. But Boba below explains it better. 👍
Sometimes “the best is the enemy of good enough”. It all comes down to extremes and knowing when “good enough” is. So yes you can build a super duper weapon which will obliterate the enemy 10 to 1, but if they have can’t buy enough of them then …… simplicity bought in mass wins.
Just see WW2 German wonder weapons, AK47 and USN AGS for examples.
True pal
Geoff, I think you’re looking at this wrong. What was learned from AH1 … try and go bespoke and you end up with the same thing for more. The Army is actually making a sensible choice here:
They also learned from the CTA 40mm procurement (which btw was forced by the govt who wanted to give the French a win to show we were serious about integrating) – so we went from probably getting 30mm bushmaster, with 15 possible suppliers for the ammunition to CTA with just 2 – and the other one is in France so in an emergency really it’s only one supplier available.
By buying these missiles, we have a much more ready supply of cheaper ammunition in larger quantities – and if Ukraine has shown anything it’s the importance of mass.
You may be right. To me It maid sense to have the missile that already has three launch platforms but perhaps in the order of things it doesn’t matter for this sort of procurement. I’m just fed up with the delays and confusion that seems to be involved in almost everything we do.🙄
Do you actually mean that amazingly wonderful, incisive system known as the U.K Government. Surely not, wash your mouth out !
🥴
Soap and water my friend 😀
So. What your saying is future batches of JAGM will be much, much, much cheaper?
And available on mass when we really need smart munitions when SHTF?
If that’s the case brilliant, let’s get a follow on order for 3000 more missiles ordered for just £30 million now.
Problem is we would be reliant on a US company integrating UK weapons. They will take years (decades..) to achieve it and charge billions for the “service”.
We need to accept off the shelf means literally off the shelf, as seen.
Agree,
But Protector is happening anyway and Brimstone is already in service. Having said that I do take your point about our cousins and how many times we get caught.
As I understand it the Apaches are still being bought/upgraded to AH-64E standard, with them cleared for front line duty yesterday and the process will be completed by the end of next year.
Boeing slashed prices in the mid 2010s and the UK went for it: 50 Apaches @ $13m a pop. It looks like we might be buying missiles the same way, except we didn’t wait for the price drop and the missiles will cost more than the helicopters.
Just because we asked and the US said yes, doesn’t mean it’ll actually happen.
How do these differ from brimstone ? If they don’t why aren’t we configuring the platform for our superior home grown appetisers?
surely in combat you want the most effective weapons not the. Cheaper option which this undoubtedly will be ?
🏴🇬🇧
JAGM is more expensive and less effective than Brimstone.
Rip off
Tbf this new kit decades in front of Russian or Chinese junk .
Peter wrote:
Videos coming out of Ukraine show that the Russians have started using WW2 eras Gaz trucks
Yeah Russia is really down to the drags. They are holding some of their best kit back in case of another conflict but even so their reserve vehicle stores are emptying fast. Often the Russian vehicle reactivation centres are requiring 3-7 vehicles to be unassembled of all functioning parts in decent condition in order to reactivate 1 vehicle like a T55 (60+ years old) . This demonstrates storing vehicles out in the open in a temperate climate leads to rust, rust, rust.
The British army should store away as much hardware as possible rather then scrapping exquisitely expensive kit but the storage has to be under roof and somewhat climate controlled.
The covert cabal channel on YouTube has bought satellite footage of the vehicle storage areas in Russia and has tried to count each type of tank, IFV, artillery, APC. Interesting watch. There has been a lot pulled out but there was loads to start with.
Now how many of the vehicles left are fixable is a bit of an unknown. Obviously they would take the decent ones out first. Another unknown is what’s in covered storage that can’t be seen from satellites.
Russia don’t have any better kit ! The SU 57 not fit for purpose .T14 tank a cardboard cut out
Brimstone in the bin.
Sod European joint procurement, let’s spaff money on American arms and benefit their economy.
Now, the Poles are different… build it in Poland and spend it in Poland.
What a cunning plan!
That is the disappointing thing. This is £1b given away. There really needs to be a better compensation plan for purchasing U.K. made products. Even if it’s costs £1.5b for the same U.K. made missiles the treasury should make up the extra if that extra stays/reinvested in the U.K. economy. I have a feeling it’s much more, some people say that the money spent gets 80% at least back into the economy.
Now it’s not for the MOD to fund the U.K. economy which is why the dept of business/treasury have to be involved with funding.
I think it depends on what’s being made. For larger construction I’ve heard 50% returned, excluding potential exports: ships, tanks etc. So we could compare against double foreign; far above the 150% threshold you set.
Exports are the gravy. If we build in the UK, we have a product that others might want. That not only brings in cash it reduces the price to the Uk for future purchases. As I understand it, these arguments are not well received by HMT.
It’s a shame brimstone will not be used, a better missile all round. A rand of 25miles vs 5miles…..
Sounds like a dangerous decision if only 5 miles/8km, give or take, as isn’t that well with manpad range? What about Spike NLOS? Or even a mixture of ATM’s ? Hopefully there’s an ER version in the works. And if the Apache’s are going cheap why not get a few more, another 10? Hopefully they can integrate Brimstone at a later stage if required or at least put this onto some army vehicles. All the good UK industry innovations and energy needs to score more sales and applications. Hope Naval Brimstone gets up too.
🤔 aye this sounds suspiciously like what happened in Detroit when OCP went with the ED-209 programme with the quote “ Who cares if it works or not” by VP Dick Jones.
no sir the defence industry is as rotten as the pharmaceutical industry it seems…..
🏴🇬🇧
The endless arguments for brimstone are quite quite flawed. While it looks almost identical, its a totally different weapon. Its not meant for stationary or slow moving helos. Since when does a helo engage targets at 25km+ without massively exposing itself; attack helos are meant to hug the ground and pop up. JAGM will do fine on AH-64E; the only people who need to moan are those on the receiving end.
Granted that helo’s don’t always need to engage targets out to 25km, but certainly do require to be able to engage out past 5kms, if for no other reason than to stay out of range of Manpads/AAM’s.
To engage out past 5km we will need a different missile, believe the US are going for a Spike variant. So yet more costs I would imagine!
I would think that some form of Brimstone will win the army’s mounted overwatch (Swingfire replacement) requirement, as well as contributing towards the army Land precision strike requirement.
Boeing have basically over inflated Brimstone integration costs thus forcing us to buy JAGM, a inferior more costly missile. Who would have figured that……
US defence contractors standard play is to offer cheap up from acquisition cost then screw the customer on the back end. Atleast this time the army is not playing the game and off the shelf means off the shelf, nothing bespoke.
GlynH wrote:
“”Its not meant for stationary or slow moving helos.””
I was pretty sure I had read that Brimstone was fitted out to be carried by Helos and UAVs. A quick butchers on the MBDA brimstone website, shows them stating just that. A further butchers shows that MBDA started on the Helicopter version in 2015. I quote from Think Defence:
A further butcher reviews that MBDA did so (in conjunction with Boeing) on a British MOD study contract:
MBDA demonstrates Brimstone missile live firing from Apache helicopter
So taking the above into account, I feel that the US gov stymied the Brimstone iteration for the British AH64 (Like they tried to do with Meteor and the .280 British round (oh the irony with the new 6.8 round) because they see the Brimstone missile as a threat to their own, a missile which whilst very capable is simply not in the same league as Brimstone,(which explains why the US purchased the Spike for its AH64Es until JAGM is given that extra range, which is an area the B2 outranges JAGM by 3 times) and no doubt would have been offered to European users as a European solution regards helicopter borne ATGM, which is the direction Europe has been gravitating towards for a few years regards home grown weapons. (never mind other users) But a very interesting snippet I found when looking up all of this, is that per unit Brimstone costs £175K, JAGM comes in at £265K
In purchasing the JAGM, the British Gov (And MOD) have shown they have no notion of keeping British Defence industry alive, Unlike the US, France, Sweden, Norway, Spain and Italy and I for one would be looking at those in the decision process chain in which to see if there have been any backhanders in which to promote JAGM over Brimstone.
Nobody has bought anything yet. Why are people talking like it’s a done deal?
Jon wrote:
For the US State Department to approve one of its latest missiles in such quantities would entail a request from the Uk to sell them to them in the first place. Meaning the Uk had selected the weapon for its AH64Es and that can be proved by how in June 2021 Minister of State for Defence Procurement Jeremy Quin stated that the US-built JAGM had been selected along with the Hellfire to equip the British Army Air Corps’ (AAC’s) fleet of 50 AH-64Es.
I wasn’t aware of Quin’s announcement. Thanks for that.
I was thinking about JLTV, approved in 2017 and never bought, also about a forthcoming election. I’m not saying it won’t happen, just that this is not a sale.
Edited to Add: Hellfires? Doesn’t that strengthen the Pro-Brimstone argument?
I do wonder if one of the reasons for ordering this is build capacity. MBDA have vacancies coming out of their ears and you just need to look at their portfolio to realise why.
So maybe the MOD have made a sensible decision to prioritise what they need to be making.🤔
That can’t be true I vividly remember many US government officials lecturing NATO on joint acquisitions and not replicating capabilities. What your alleging is the US government says one thing and does another thing 😀
Next you be telling me that nuclear weapons test ban treaty and the law of the sea are not US law even though they wrote it 😀
I mean if the Ukranians can fire it from a stationary ice cream truck, I’m sure it can be fired from a slow moving helicopter.
It’s like I said the defence industry is rotten …..
Stevie V nailed it 35 yrs ago when he stated “Money Talks ,dirty cash “‘
🏴🇬🇧
Convenient political spin. I quote this site:-
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/watch-brimstone-missile-test-fired-apache/
The major issue soon is likely be America’s ability to supply its own national needs alongside the UK’s & other states. We’re already seeing US stresses building under the proxy war with Russia, now extending to the middle east. Then along comes China…. Add to that the old familiar issue of getting equipment across the Atlantic….
Good comments Glynn, Still like the JAGM to have a bit of extra range though.
Yes but in modern warfare the shooting platform does not need direct line of sight. Longer range Brimstone would bring advantage even to an attack helicopter. Getting to within 5 miles is increasingly dangerous.
Aircraft and their missiles are not my forte. But reading the sales release the customer is MOD not the Army and where does it actually mention it’s just for the Apache, that’s a lot of money for a helicopter which will only be useful if we get into a large land war.
Anyone know if this missile is integrated with the F35B?
If so it is if maybe also a stopgap capability due to the delays in integrating Meteor and Spear.
At present the F35B is heading towards us having 45 aircraft by 2025 and other than Paveway IV has zero attack capability till at least 2027.
If I am right that actually makes perfect sense, especially when the contractor is LM 🤔
Our F35B can carry the entire inventory it’s just paveway IV is uk only content. Paveway IV is probably the best attack weapon available on F35B though. I agree we need spear 3 soon though and meteor then our F35B are probably the most lethal platforms on the planet.
Mmm yes it “can” use the US missiles that have been integrated into the F35B but until this announcement we didn’t operate any nor arrange to buy any. And I can’t see us buying AGM-88 or AGM-158 any time soon (too expensive and why would we).
Paveway IV is the “best attack weapon available” solely because it’s the only one we have. When all is said and done it’s a guided bomb and we have no Air to surface missiles, whatsover).
Which leaves us with 45 very expensive, stealthy, multi role aircraft with very little Surface to Air ability and zero stand off.
The integration of developed Meteor for F35 is part of the MOD agreed programme of work and is ongoing not just for ourselves but for the Italian Government as well.
The programme has slipped to inservice in 2027 but that is related to the US Block 4 issues.
200 AMRAAM are the stop gap capability.
It’s a typo it should be Air to Surface and seeing as this post is about the JAGM even you must realise that.
At present the only Air to Ground weapon cleared for our F35s is Paveway IV which is a guided bomb, it’s not even a glide bomb so no stand off capability.
My conjecture is that the JAGM is cleared for the F35 and it would be sensible for them to be used as an interim (just like AMRAAM is) till Spear 3 and Meteor are ready.
To be perfectly honest it isn’t ideal with limited range but it’s a damn sight better than flying over or very close to the target.
If you actually source the original US notification of sale it doesn’t actually mention the system we will use it on.
Paveway 4 has considerable standing off capability. It provides all weather, day/night precision targeting against fixed and moving targets. It can be re-targeted in flight. It has multiple fuse and impact angle settings. The warhead can be dialed down so you can target an individual sniper for example without blowing up half the hospital he’s using. Also 6 weapons can be dropped on 6 different targets in one pass. In other words, Paveway 4 is an incredibly accurate and flexible weapon. And has been utilised far more than any other weapon in the RAF’s inventory since its introduction to service in 2007.
Indeed it has proved itself to be a brilliant weapon in Iraq, Syria and Libya. However it has certain fundamental limitations which in no way mean it isn’t an excellent weapon when used in certain environments but its limitations are still there.
Its stand off capability is completely dependant on gravity, height and speed. It’s no substitute for the capability of a Air to Stand off missile.
When all is said and done it is an unpowered, highly accurate, guided gravity bomb. Which is fine as long as you can operate at the optimum altitude and speed (as in the 3 scenarios above) required to achieve the stand off range.
Its never been used in an environment like Ukraine where the potential enemy has an effective SAM system and CAP.
As to why it is referred to as the most utilised system in the RAF inventory in recent conflicts, I think that’s a bit of a Marketing Red Herring.
It’s way cheaper (£70k) than Storm Shadow (£2 million) or Brimstone missile (£175k) and you will get the same end result (or even better if you want a big bang). So as the RAF is a girl on an a budget (treasury man says if use it, you lose it) and was operating in an environment with complete Air Superiority. So which would you use ? Yep the cheapest 😉
Interestingly the cost to integrate it on the F35B was reported to be £103 million. Gulp ! So God knows what it is for Meteor or Spear 3 (it was £170 million 3/4 years ago).
Love having chats with sensible, well informed grown ups 😉
All the above is true, and Paveway 4 is highly capable in airspace, where air superiority has been achieved. There are some other points to think about, though. The F35, with its all aspect stealth, is designed to pentrate airspace with highly capable air defence systems. Rules of engagement can also dictate that visual confirmation of the target has to be beyond doubt before weapons can engage. But. Standoff weapons are the future, and SPEAR3 with SPEAR EW will greatly enhance that capability. FC/ASW will be the next weapons that will add another big step in capability. Even with only gravity to bring the Paveway 4 to earth, it can still hit the target 20+ miles away from the launching aircraft. 👍
Nice summary, thx, I didn’t know Paveway 4 could be used against moving targets. So I presume this gives it an anti-ship capability?
Yes. And a surprisingly effective anti ship capability. Especially with the F35’s stealth. 👍
Last I heard, integrating JAGM inc 3 (the fixed-wing version) will also be held up waiting for Block 4.
I don’t even know if there’s a delivery date for increment 3 yet, the version with the new engine and the longer range. I think we are probably getting increment 1 which isn’t for F-35 (or F/A-18). According to a report to Congress, “There are no fixed wing requirements for JAGM Increment 1.”
I’m pretty sure we are buying for Apache.
OK ta for that info, every day is a school day (I did say this area wasn’t my forte). Mine is U.K. industrial, supply chain and things that make large wet machines move.😉
And that’s the current estimated timeline providing there are no further delays. As for FOC?
“But Block 4 has been delayed by trouble getting the TR-3 flight ready. In fact, delays and technical problems with the TR-3 account for a $330 million increase in the F-35’s development costs, according to a report from the Government Accountability Office. Development of Block 4 is now three years late and will continue until 2029, the GAO said.”
3,000 missiles is a huge quantity. It would allow each aircraft in inventory to shoot 60 missiles. Almost as if there is an alternative destination/use in mind.
Would not be the first time the MOD made it look like they were going to buy a lot of missiles then didn’t and just relied on US stores.
If America wants its poodle fighting let them supply the missiles 😀
Will be a lot of money for a missile that’s probably not needed and more to do with keeping the US sweet in light of ongoing and future US procurement! What’s happening to Brimstones for the Apaches? Cheaper and more effective?
Assume dead in the water.
It is like putting up a large sign ‘Don’t buy anything from us! We don’t!’
Just as an observation and OT, anyone noticed since JohninMK has disappeared and trolled away, so have a few other regular sad none-entity clown no mark trolls! Breath of fresh air…..aargh breathe in…..nice clean air, no sewage, just decent and debatable posts 👍
I blame you. I wouldn’t be surprised if JohninMagnetogorsk is now in a rehabilitation centre in the Urals listening to Mozart in a darkened room trying to forget being pummelled in so many very funny ripostes launched by your good self. Better than being sent to the front … Have you spotted the new replacement?
👍 😄
😂
Nah he has given his all for Mother Russia, someone had to provide a new heart for Mr “Superman” Putin.
Lets face it a marriage made in heaven as they both talk total “shite”.
You are to kind but it was a team effort, utilising all our various methods of communication and experience, to ensure sad trolls are give no space to operate 👍😂
Admit it , you miss the old fool!!😉
Like I miss living in a wet muddy 2 man fire trench slowly pooling up with water 😂😂😇
Probably suffered the common Russian fate of clumsiness and fallen out of a window.
Very clumsy nowadays these Russkies aren’t they 😂
Didn’t George say he overstepped the mark once too often a while back?
A few times. Same as two or three others, when continually challenged, they lose control and just become abusive and unable to compute 😂😂
Buy American get locked into the us ecosystem. This is nothing new has always happened really it’s the trade off for going for the “off the shelf” kit rather than bespoke, at least if you develop your own kit you know where the costs are going to be. Now we gotta buy an inferior system for nearly £1b instead of going all in on brimstone for less than half the price. Echoes of Chinook and F35 the MOD really need an independent auditor to oversee public funds.
Yeah but then we would have had to develop our own attack helicopter to fire our own missile and that ain’t cheap.
No it certainly isn’t but we’ve built Apaches before 🤔. All this was at the negotiating table the MOD went for the cheapest price at the time. We need to grow a spine and demand to Boeing using our political powers( the us is our no.1 ally) to have full ownership over our assets.
Boeings a private company that regularly tells the US government to go **** itself.
I don’t think they care we are the US number one allie
, they only care a about profit.
Same guys who knowingly put broken airplanes with missing software in the air then blamed the pilots for being African.
Like iPhone!
I think it’s to do with the usual short-termist thinking. We ask about buying the helicopters, not about buying maintaining, operating and disposing of a platform that has the sensors and weapon systems that we need. I think we are moving toward lifetime costing, but that still can exclude effectors and integration which we all too often buy as an afterthought to the platform.
To me the weirdest recent example was AAC’s Mk1 Wildcat. It’s multi-role and the first role mentioned is typically reconnaissance. How can you buy a recon platform in the 21st century without radar or a tactical data link then add them as an afterthought a decade later? You know you are behind the times when in the MOD’s description of the sensors “glass cockpit” comes second.
So what’s wrong with Brimstone 2?
It’s not already integrated on Apache and the cost to get Boeing to integrate anything is eye watering. Worth remembering we have purchased these Apache E models because it was cheaper than upgrading our D models.
Sticking a bespoke missile on would probably defeat the purpose and it’s all probably just a shot term interim solution as manned attack helicopters will probably look like horse cavalry soon.
Interesting take on horse cavalry :-). Brimstone with its longer reach is on the Protector drone and Typhoon. Maybe we will fit it to AW149 ?
Aren’t the Poles going to be doing exactly this? Even to have both?
Don’t know, but they seem to me to be completely different missiles. Wiki has Brimstone II with a range of 60km, from a fixed wing launch like Typhoon, which can carry lots of them. I think the idea was for neutralising Soviet armoured columns from a distance. I don’t have the knowledge to say but the shorter range JAGM on a helo looks like something which would be used more in a close air support role?
Absolutely nothing at all 🚀
$957m divided across 3000x missiles, at a exchange rate of 0.82 = £263,000 per missile. Brimstone last cost figure was ~£175,000 per missile. A quick bit of maths show that this is £264m more – would the integration of Brimstone really be more than this? And is that cost more than the benefit to British Industry/economy?
£264m difference ….hmmm….the UK could buy an additional T31 for that! Sure hope the UK is getting maximum effectiveness for all that quantity and money. Australia and Indonesia are also getting Apaches but I’m not sure what weapons they’re getting with it.
This seems a bit expensive to me, the whole purchase cost equates to circa £3 million per missile. I know that’s an all inclusive deal with spares, servicing, integration yabba yabba yabba but still chuffing expensive.
No it’s @ £260 k per missile. But that it is still dearer than Brimstone and much shorter range. Barmy decision, unless there are production constraints for Brimstone.
All political 🇺🇸 👍 🇬🇧 🙄
Pragmatic decision I expect. From the MOD’s perspective missile integration is one less project you don’t really control because you are competing with US priorities. Bit like UK missiles on F-35B and Mark54 vs Stingray torpedo on P8. A technically less capable choice but one whose delivery and cost are more certain.
Hopefully it’s the actual ER type! Or can be upgraded to ER?
It’s far more advanced than to Brimstone ..
While on the subject could anyone tell me if the Army are going to replace the Gazelles now there finish service or is going be unfulfilled ?
Doubt it. Some Hs125 were purchased but that it seems has been cancelled.
5 AAC who had a single Sqn operating the type will probably become a UAV Regiment according to reports. The Gazelle has no overseas expeditionary role and was for CT/HS in NI only.
There were a handful of others such as 9 Flight in BATUS and some operated by UKSF but I think they too have long gone.
Cheers DM 🍺
They couldn’t go wrong in purchasing 10 of the NH90s the Aussies or Norwegians are getting rid of. Only 10 years old and Airbus who are buying them back is going to break them down and use them all for spares.
Morning Farouk.
Isn’t that type quite a bit bigger than a Gazelle? I think they actually want to get shot of the whole NI CT security thing onto the police. 5 AAC will move to UAV I understand and if so no unit to fly NH90 and all the logistical support it would entail.
On NH90, I have read quite a few negative reports on the type? I remember when it was even being touted for the SF role in the papers but for whatever reason DSF did not like it.
Regardless of the merits of either Brimstone or JAGM, the fact is that Brimstone has already been tested on AH64E, the results were quite impressive, so if the situation dictates a solution is already there
Maybe the UK can get the US to co-produce Brimstone under licence? Aren’t they doing this with NSM, Iron Dome interceptors?
We sell the ya is our entire Harrier fleet of 70 airceaft for 150M UKP and they charge us a billion for 3000 missiles. Bloody hell we are stupid.
The UK did not sell a whole fleet of 70 functioning Harriers but sold 150M UKP worth of spare Harrier parts from retired aircraft. A fair price.
The person who owns this website advocated we should all move to Aegis in the telegraph….
….well this is what happens when you move to the US ecosystem: you end up buying US missiles which are inferior to British made equivalents….. a warning here…