Britain steps up support to Ukraine with a complete package of £325 million for cutting-edge drones to help fight Putin’s illegal invasion.
The investment, which will deliver more than 10,000 drones for the Ukrainian Armed Forces will harness the UK’s world-leading defence industries to deliver advanced new drone capabilities to Ukraine throughout 2024.
The announcement was made by the Defence Secretary during a visit to Ukraine, his third visit to the country. Accompanied by the Chief of the Defence Staff, he met President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Defence Minister Rustem Umerov, where they reiterated their commitment to Ukraine.
In a significant boost to the £200m drone package announced by the Prime Minister in January, the now £325m overall funding commitment will deliver over 10,000 uncrewed platforms – the majority of which are first-person view (FPV) drones,1000 one-way attack drones which have been researched and developed in the UK, as well as surveillance and maritime drones.
Defence Secretary Grant Shapps said:
“I am ramping up our commitment to arm Ukraine with cutting-edge new drones coming directly from the UK’s world-leading defence industries – straight from the factory floor to the frontline. I encourage international partners to join the UK in this effort.
Ukraine’s Armed Forces are using UK donated weapons to unprecedented effect, to help lay waste to nearly 30% of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet.
On my third visit to this great country, I was pleased to be able to offer my firm reassurance to President Zelenskyy on the UK’s unwavering commitment to the brave people and military forces of Ukraine.”
According to a press release:
“These drones have proven highly effective on the battlefield since Russia’s full-scale invasion, providing situational awareness to target enemy positions and armoured vehicles. Ukrainian forces have also used these drones effectively to strike at the heart of Russia’s Navy. With more than a £100M of this package being spent on maritime capabilities, Ukraine will continue to turn the tide in the Black Sea.
Following a meeting of the US-led Ukraine Defence Contact Group last month, which convenes more than 50 countries in providing military support to Ukraine, the Defence Secretary announced that the UK would co-lead an international capability coalition with Latvia to bolster Ukraine’s drone capabilities.”
A bit O/T due to the shortage of Storm Shadow/Scalp and the Germans being awkward over Taurus what is the possibility of the Ukrainians being able to reverse engineer said missiles?
The question is…how effective are larger one way drones (as a cost comparison) to a stormshadow?
The weakness, as i see it, of the big drones is that they are very slow and vulnerable because of it. Something like a Banshee would be much better with a speed of 350+ mph.
Other than that, reverse engineering or even just tooling up to make something as sophisticated as Stormshadow would in itself be very expensive.
Making 400mph jet powered cruise missiles ( as thats what I think of big drones as) would be relatively quick and dare I say it, easy. No idea of cost but betting 5 plus Banshees to one Stormshado easy?
However if Stormshadow is 5 times more effective…
AA
Certainly a question that needs discussion. I tend to think 5 cheaper but long range drones as things stand are a better bet. To be honest both will only be effective if you plan and considerably ‘spoof’ the defences. I read about the latest sinking of the a Russian Corvette. There were three stages to this it seems. Day 1 a big attack on Crimean airfields including SS it seems that had little direct impact as the Russians had moved air defence after the last strikes, then Day 2 a big drone attack through the East side of Crimea from which those air defence systems were taken with around 50 drones which distracted defences and had impact and drove ships out of port. And immediately after this early on Day 3 the sea drone attack hit and sank the Corvette that had taken to sea. It’s a very complex business to gain success and I do think you do need some sophisticated drones to mix in with the bulk less sophisticated and cheaper but still highly effective ones.
Interesting that this article suggests cooperation on maritime drones. Out of interest as I read yesterday, the latest maritime drones Ukraine have developed are seriously effective, very fast manoeuvrable, stealthy and with up to a ton of explosive. The Russians are struggling to deal with them having neglected close in defensive armament. These drones have Starlink (thanks to US enforced contract with a reluctant two timing Musk who stopped earlier ones from working properly) and a secondary back up guidance satellite panel. However what’s coming are undersea drones which will be even more effective no doubt. Would be interesting to know what influence/impact, if any we are having on all these developments. This has been the most effective front in the war for Ukraine which 18mths ago looked like being their Achilles heel.
It appeared a few weeks ago a Banshee like drone was forced down and had been made into a missile. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13100249/Russia-parades-British-Banshee-kamikaze-jet-drone-claiming-intercepted-landed-UAV-stolen-secrets.html
Daily Mail. ROFTL Russian fake news
“Ukraine’s Armed Forces are using UK donated weapons to unprecedented effect, to help lay waste to nearly 30% of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet”
Eh? We didn’t donate the sea-going drones did we?
Storm shadow has taken out a number of vessels in ports
It is more than likely we have had influence the design of and help pay for the development of the SeaBaby drones.
Exactly… It’s a bit Vague …. Most attacks seem to be the Magura V5 and Sea Baby… Not a clue if these had any British design input though….
£325m/10,000 = £32,000 per drone.
If say 9000 are cheap FPV drones. Surely the 1000 are Jackdaw level, the 400kts cutdown version of Banshee. Leaving a few bigger drones.
Jackdaws are pretty impressive.
For all the “aircraft carriers/subs/tanks etc are irrelevant because of drones, Britain shouldn’t waste money on them” crowd: Britain appears deeply embedded in Ukraine’s drone warfare program and we’re hopefully learning a ton from Ukrainian experimentation and their expertise.
For functional defense, we’ll need both big ticket kit (tanks/ships) AND low cost drones AND know how they interact on the battlefield.
I hope we’re learning fast enough from the Ukrainians.
Sorry 216 Squadron you’ll have too wait for yours
Let’s hope the Russian’s don’t capture any of these drones then get their Iranian, Nth Korean and Chinese friends to make them in the 10s of 10000s and use them back against the West!
Too much talk talk going on again imho. Stupid broadcasting of what we’re doing. No need to tell it at all. Surely to say less and do more is a bit more savvy? Don’t need to know the factory names and addresses either. And make sure the UK forces have enough drones for their own use too.
I would like to think that we are actually “doing more whilst saying less” with our own defence procurements…. sort of like telling the World we are not spending more but actually doing so on the quiet……
Yes, that’s probably a better way to look at it. Let’s absolutely hope so Frank. This war is dragging on and Ukraine needs to be able shove the Russian forces back over the fence from whence they came.
I’d like free beer but just like increased Defence Expenditure it’s just a dream.
We both share the same dreams then. 🍺…😄
Doesn’t matter if we say nothing to try and maintain security but the German High command will leak it next time they are on their works outing.
So when is the British Army going to stand up a FPV Drone Regiment, even staffed by reservists.
Personally, I see these as a part of the armament of the normal infantry- attached to the weapons platoon or something. Seeing just how widespread their use is in Ukraine, if you assign them any higher up the chain then they’re going to lose effectiveness.
Hi Joe. Hmmm, maybe. Need an Army bod. Don’t know if FSC have the personnel to use them along side the existing GPMG, Javelin, Mortar Platoons?
Why couldn’t a supposed reserve regiment deploy individuals to deployed battalions? I suggested reservist to tap into the PS2 generation, though I have seen the Army FPV Championships on YouTube so there are people doing it already as a hobby.
To be honest mate, it’s just a gut feel from myself too. But they just seem to be so widely used, by all the units fighting on the front lines, and in such large numbers, that it makes sense for them to be an organic part of every regular infantry formation at a fairly low level- if you see what I mean?
To me they sit somewhere in the middle of a Venn diagram between a mortar and Javelin, although not delivering all the capabilities of either. Still pretty vital though.
I like the idea of a reservist regiment with them, certainly for growing the capability from where it currently sits (nothing). And it would be a very easy way of slotting individual people into regular units without too much disruption I would imagine.
As I said, I’m no expert by any means. But I agree your idea has merit too mate. May be one if our army lads like DB or Dern will comment on the ins and outs.
I don’t think so because FPV drones need specific training, certainly can be a company in a battalion for example, or a platoon.
Btw due to Ukranian EW, Russians are now also using wire guided FPV’s
Just design the controller like an Xbox and the Army Cadets can do it 🤣
forget the controller make it work on there phones lol
Huh ? we have an Army ? 😂
That’s a very interesting claim- that we’re the ones who’ve provided / played a major role in developing those USVs. I thought it was a Ukrainian company called Magura?
Wonder how many of them can fit in a T31 mission bay…?
Are we giving tomuch credit to drones and the reality is drones are successful in Ukraine because the Russians are just really rubbish.
An example are the ukranian sea drones. A jet ski engine jammed into a speed boat with a satalite dish on top. Surely a jet ski engine can be picked up by sona from the other side of the black sea? And picked off by helicopter 100 miles out! As these boats approach they should be vulnerable to every deck weapon on the ship. The western equivalent is a torpedo.
Fpv drones taking out tanks. Again a simple jamming system should totally disable all the off the shelf first person guided drones. Only AI enabled drones that can detect and target tanks using an on board computer would be able to work. These I’m yet to see. Again the western equivalent is a brimstone missile.
Iranian shithead style drones. None stealth, loud, predictable course, lack of maneuverability, slow and a very large target. Easy to detect. CAP loaded up with sidewinder missiles could pick off an entire squadron with just 1 wing load of missiles. Most helicopter could intercept with a little notice and virtually all the ww2 aircraft in Duxford could be used to shoot them down. Most manpads have the capability which almost all units in a wester front line unit would be armed with. The wester equivalent is a tomahawk cruise missile with stealth characteristics traveling near to the speed of sound.
I personally am not convinced that drones are battle winning technology. At least not drones in the Ukraine conflict!
Just to recap first person controlled drones can not work against an enemy who jams the signal. Same goes for artillery spotting and reconnaissance with a civilian drone! If the signal is jammed the drone is useless!
I can agree with most of that.
We need Spear3. It’s cheap as far as these things go, has good speed and range, can kill or disable most things.
The big Sh##head drones to me are neither one thing or another for the reasons stated. If you want that sort of thing there must be a way to stealthify it a bit with an appropriately shaped easily moulded body and make it faster…or are we reinventing the wheel and just need Spear3?
Hand held type drones for instant reconnaissance I get. Zoom up, spot, zoom down…or even walk over to pick it up if jammed to uselessness…would a battlefield be jammed 24/7?
AA
Drones came to stay.
Try to jam a directional signal…if you aren’t on FOV there is no way.
Russians are already using wire guided FPV drones.
Your sidewinder take is delusional, unless you have permanent CAP which is impossible over all battlefield. All drones are inherently stealth because they are made of plastics and only the engine, camera have metal elements.
Sorry I have to disagree. A shithead style drone driven by a prop traveling 500 miles to its target at say 110mph should be easily picked up over ukranian or Russian terrain during a full scale war. You only get 5 hours to prepare your defence. Standing up a squadron of helicopters/jets to intercept should be child’s play with hours of warning. It only gets difficult when you don’t have awacs or a credible battle of Britain air defence system. You also need the ability to operate your own jets randomly over your own territory without shooting your own jets down.
Hitler had the v1 in the 1940s and Dowding the home chain air defence system 80 years ago. Some how Russia has neither!
Wire guided will only be any use over a very short range and specific terrain. I don’t see a small drone carrying 5 km of wire over a forested hill! I also don’t see a truck mounted generator powering a truck mounted aerial being unable to drown out a off the shelf drone weighing a few pounds.
I think their is a reason the west use
Cruise missile not drone.
Torpedoes not jets ski powered drone boats.
Brimstone/hellfire not fpv drones.
Reaper drones not chines civilian drones.
Since when you will detect a drone of that size 500 miles from target?
Tow missile with 4km range or Hot missile 5km were wire guided.
Drone is much cheaper than a cruise missile
Torpedoes need generally a submarine, submarines are gigantically expensive compared to a drone which is only the evolution of a MTM boat of HMS York fame.
Brimstone and hellfire need expensive fire assets. External designation etc.
Reaper drones are big stuff. Easy to destroy by SAM’s.
FPV drones are distributed power so do not follow the fetish that the West have for the knight archer.
We are on 2 different planets.
Let’s have a war. My sea wolf submarines will detect your jet ski powered bomb boats about 200 miles away and report it to the nearest Arleigh Burke destroyer which will despatch a helicopter to destroy them hundreds of miles away. Thats why we use torpedos because they have stealth. Jets ski have zero stealth. They only work against Russians. Every other military in the world could detect them from hundreds of miles away and destroy them. Only Russians can’t detect jet ski engines! For all other wars you need torpedoes or anti ship missiles. Jet ski only work against Russians or USA destroyers in peace time not expecting to be attacked. Won’t work against the USA in open water in the middle of a war.
Shithead drone can not fly any where near an awacs without being spotted. They can fly around in Russia without being spotted. They can’t fly around American held airspace in a war!at some point they will have to cover open ground and then there low speed leaves any military with a sophisticated airforce plenty of time to intercept. Russians can’t fly jets randomly in Russia for fear of shooting their own jets down.
Brimstone missiles or a wire guided drone. I’ll say it again the wire won’t work over a heavily forested hill! Not to mention your drone is no longer small with a cable drum. Brimstone could be used against an American tank. Fpv drone against an American operated tank won’t work. Americans were jamming radio waves in Afghanistan to stop road side bombs. Jamming is not new.
And all this is ignoring the fact USA would have Aerial Supremacy. Russia is unable to suppress ground launched air defenses. Russia backed the wrong horse with going for a ground based air defense system. It can not survive against modern aerial technology. It can’t even be switched on and expect to survive.
Omg 1 finger typing on a phone. Now I have ptsd in my index finger!
Yes we are different planets, you have no clue even of what is what.
Really, you think a TOW missile is something big? fiberoptics are even lighter than old wire.
I’m sorry. I now realized I have been really stupid. Thank you so much for educating me. I can never repay you but please believe me I will forever be in your debt! Xxx
Except you wouldn’t do that. You’d send them in more as a decoy. They take out the defensive missiles while your better ones fly in slightly afterwards… or even mix them in with the rubbish. As they approach enemy lines they they shoot off to do their thing leaving the enemy to wonder what just happened… deception comes in many forms, sensible use would try not to be predictable!
Agreed sending hundreds of drones in a wave would be a good idea. The problem is you might be able to do it Pearl harbour style at an unsuspecting enemy but in the middle of a war I suspect massing drones won’t be that easy and my argument is a drone operating country facing a tomahawk missile country is at a disadvantage!
Oh I totally agree with that.
It all depends on the layering of your defences. For example, if you have air supremacy over your terrain with a combined fighter CAP and AWACS. Then you stand a better chance of intercepting the drones at distance. But if you only have a ground based radar system and fighters that react to what the ground based radar sees. You will be constantly fire fighting the threat. Which means more threats have a chance of getting through.
AEW is the key. It gives you time to plan and move your assets around to meet the threat. Be that air, land or sea based. However, if you try to overreach the AEW’s capabilities, by moving it closer to the threat. Then it becomes easier to target, as per the two Russian A50 Mainstays that were shot down by a SAM trap.
There is however an issue of dealing with massed drone attacks, using you fighters. In that these fighters normally only carry 6 to 8 air to air missiles apiece for your Mig-29 and Su-27 respectively. Which means that your stocks of missiles will soon run dry. As you can’t afford not to use the missiles against cheap drones. As the drone still represents a major threat to life and infrastructure. There is a definitive cost bias in favour of the drone.
So what is the solution?
I have an out of the box solution. A twin engined “optionally” manned aircraft. That mounts a single 57mm autocannon, with a dual ammunition feed. The ammunition types would be a mix of guided rounds and multipurpose HE. The aircraft is fitted with a fairly simple AESA based radar, that can search for targets and illuminate them for tracking. Depending on the speed/range of the drone. The pilot can elect to fire a guided round or a proximity fuzed HE round.
Now for the aircraft, it needs decent speed, range and endurance. Plus it needs to be capable of mounting a 57mm autocannon. I wonder if it has been done before? Even have a name picked for it – MOSQUITO!
And yet that exact scenario killed 3 US soldiers last month.
As for jamming, sticking a constantly emmitting reasonably powerful antenna on your tank has just made it infinitely easier for my ISR assets to find, and to use to either guide some shiny new home-on-jam weapons on to it or get a targetable grid for a salvo of Brimstone.
It’s easy to say “just do x”, but there’s usually a reason why they haven’t already “just done x”
Hack the drones and program return to sender. I’m unsure how easy jamming or anything else is for these drones.