Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon stated that British dual nationals are permitted to serve in recognised foreign military forces like the Israel Defence Force, as the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 does not apply to the situation in Gaza.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office), stated:
“The UK recognises the right of British nationals with more than one nationality to serve in the legitimately recognised armed forces of their additional nationalities. This includes the Israel Defence Force.
With respect to the current conflict in Gaza, Section 4 of the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 makes it an offence for a British subject to enlist in the military of a foreign state at war with another foreign state with which the UK is at peace. That prohibition does not extend, however, to enlistment in a foreign government’s forces which are engaged in a civil war or combating terrorism or internal uprisings. The Occupied Palestinian Territories are not currently recognised as a state by the UK. The 1870 Act therefore does not apply in this instance.”
“Genocide”? You mean a nations right to defend itself against terrorists? Oct 7th 2023. Go wise up.
No-one would consider the killing of Hamas terrorists to be genocide.
The debate is about the killing of very large numbers of non-combatants.
The establishment of the Jewish state and the subsequent occupation of the neighbouring territories is nothing but lebensraum, but for the Jews.
I’d be totally supportive of them (wonderful people ofc) if Hezbollah attacked a synagogue in Rome, Moscow or new York.
Well saidJohn
Deluded fuck.History will show your racist attitude.Hey Goebbels was a decent fella in 1923.Dumbass
Israel is a racist apartheid terrorist state.Most of yhe genocidal cunts are Ashkenazi Jews who have no right to be there.Deluded fuckers.Amd I find it hilarious they fucked themselves over.Bunch of genocidal fucking cunts.
Genocide: a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.
Terrorist groups like Hamas don’t count as any of those categories.
No, Hamas Doesn’t, but the Palestinian people do. And Israel’s prosecution of the operation almost certainly breaks the requirements for proportionality laid down in the LOAC.
If we had operated like that in Helmand, I guarantee we’d have been in court and vilified across the world.
There is a strange double standard on the go in the West at the moment where we look at Kiev and Russian indiscriminate destruction and cry foul. And yet we say that Israel has every right… I know it isn’t as back and white as that, but it’s pretty stark.
I fully support the right to Self Defence, it’s sacred. But it doesn’t give you Carte Blanche to just do what you want.
The other issue for me, is that I fear that Israel is playing directly into the hands of Hamas. The only logical reason for the October attack was to spike an overreaction by Israel, that moves Arab states away from recognition of Israel and normalised political discourse and back into hostility.
We’ve already seen the likes of Ireland saying they’re ready to recognise Palestine (even a certain Lord Cameron said it is probably on the cards). That would not be the case if Israel had a proportionate response.
Rant over
“ The only logical reason for the October attack was to spike an overreaction by Israel”
Sadly, as much as I support Israel’s right to self defence, you are right. They predictably over react…….
When the initial atrocity was perpetrated nobody could be seen to criticise Isreal.
They have over reacted and played into Putin and Xi’s geopolitical hands. I hope that shell factory of ours is running 24/7/365 the sand is running through the hour glass.
Sadly and most worrying I think your last statement is the most pertinent…but you also needed to add Tehran to that mix as we have 3 major enemies and one big opportunist ( North Korea) and a number of satellite states ( Belarus, armenia, Kazakhstan, krgzstan, Tajikistan and Irans proxies) , if everything goes south in a worst case realistic war, the west will be fighting all four major powers and their allies at the same time….it’s not a pleasant thought and will stretch the west militarily, let alone politically, economically and industrially capacity wise……..
I think that’s the big problem…a lot of people in the west….calculate the wests ability to defeat china or Russia or Iran or North Korea…what no one is doing is considering how they can all be beaten at the same time…because history tells us that where there are intrenched geopolitical fault lines..major wars cause them to flare up ( everyone forgets WW2 was actually a load of different wars that all happened over the same timeframe…one tipped into the next or emboldened an invasion..etc etc).
And here in the posts of BoBA and Supportive Bloke we see their moral bankruptcy even if they -hopefully-not even realise.
Tell me if Israel did not have invested in Iron Dome and Israel had 20000 deaths where was that “proportionality”?
So for BoBA and Supportive Bloke to authorise Israel destroy Hamas, the Israel Government should let 20000 of their citizens die.
So Israel should adopt the Hamas tactics of wanting many their own civilians deaths to get political sympathy.
It is not enough that Hamas existence would keep killing Israelis as the opportunities or new technologies arises.
So was effectively a strategic mistake for Israel to have invested in Iron Dome. Since Iron Dome , timely warnings, prevents Israel from destroying Hamas.
All that investment should have been instead in offensive weapons.
This is the “civilization” of journalists and those that are unable to think about what behavior journalism rewards.
Alex, you misunderstand proportionality. It’s not a literal eye for an eye. The LOAC demands (and Israel is a signatory and given where the modern state of Israel comes from historically should understand more than most states) that all care should be taken to minimise civilian casualties. You only have to take one look at the neighbourhoods in Gaza to realise that it really hasn’t been doing that.
That is where their response hasn’t been proportional.
I know the reality of war, I’ve fought in two of them as an infantry officer. But it doesn’t have to include the complete destruction of entire neighbourhoods, particularly when there is literally nowhere for the civilian population to go.
Israel has some of the best special forces in the world, it has some of the best precision strike assets in the world. It has some of the best intelligence assets in the world.
What used to make Israel truly feared was the likes of Mossad knocking off opponents years after an event.
To my mind, they have gone too far and they are losing credibility, losing support and igniting enemies that surround them. As an isolated country utterly reliant on foreign support for survival, this is a massive strategic error.
To use a bar analogy. If someone throws a pint over you, the proportional response might be a give them a shove, maybe to punch them once and properly so everyone knows that’s enough.
Israel is doing the equivalent of trying to knock the living sh&t out of the guy who threw the pint, kicking them in the head whilst they’re on the floor and starting on their mates. Oh, and the bar itself is mostly friendly to the bloke who threw the pint.
Spot on!
Hiya Mate, how are tricks?
That’s a fascinating insightful post Bob, well written!
Mostly agree but Russia isn’t a fair analogy because it’s not defending itself
You would not believe the number of young people who make direct comparisons between Ukraine and Gaza. Somehow a terrorist group has the same rights and authority as an elected government.
The fall back is, as ever “But what about the Genocide” but what I see in Gaza isn’t the targeting of civilians, it’s just a lack of empathy. Israel just doesn’t particularly mind, short of the damage to reputation, about how many non-israelis die. (Palestinians aren’t being targeted, they’re just whoever happened to be in the way).
Now everything that goes wrong must be blamed on somebody somewhere who means evil and must be objectively wrong. Instead I just see a combination of incompetence, misguided fervour and callousness.
Even there I think you are being anti-Israeli.
Hamas are the democratically elected government of Gaza, indeed far more so than the Nazis ever were in Germany.
The Israelis would be morally justified in just bombing Gaza until all hostiges are released.
We have all signed up for ‘international laws’ that ban this. This is a mistake we should aknowledge and renounce. These ‘laws’ are only followed by the good and ignored by the evil. This situation will continue until there is a legitimate world government that can enforce them.
Until we reach that point all ‘international laws’ are just moral aspirations, enforced by the strong when it suits them.
Sadly I think you are right from what we can see it looks like Israeli has gone over the proportionality line…but on the balance side Hamas has done its level best to purposefully drive Israel over that line. Hate begets hate and in the end it’s usually the innocent that suffer most…Israel really needs to destroy Hamas..Hamas have buried themselves within a civilian population..
We also need to undertake some self reflection as well, would we as a nation react differently if faced with the same..the US and it’s allies after all unleashed the war on terror on the world after 9/11 and the deaths from that ( essentially a world war) are numbered in the millions.
In regards to recognition of Palestine, I actually think that is long overdue, the only way this will ever end is in a two state solution and the world really needs force that to happen. there have been two big problems that could have been sorted out a long time ago and prevented all this.
1) Israel controlling and removing illegal settlers from the west and putting its full support behind fatah ( a secular organisation that has renounced violence and the destruction of Israel as an aim).
2) the world getting behind Fatah in the West Bank and giving it full recognition as a nation and member of the UN.
3) the Arab world supporting Fatah to take control of Gaza and root and Branch destroy Hamas ( only fatah backed up by the Arab states can do this job, without creating greater hatred and a new generation of Hamas terrorists).
If that had been done then we would not be where we are now…but the present Isreali executive would not do that and played a game of using Hamas and fatah against each other and ensuring fatah were undermined so they could not form a functioning nation…it was a game of balancing enemies and in the end it backfired removing a chance for peace…but the population of Gaza also rejected fatah and supported Hamas..knowing what Hamas were..so there is falling and fault on both sides….and it’s not like Isreal has ever been safe from its neighbours who rejected a two state solution at the very beginning and attempted to destroy Israel from inception…..not really a place you can find the truly righteous side..just so many victims.
No rant, total agreement. As many have said from day one, Hamas knew the Israeli response would be excessive and prolonged, and they were were quite happy to use both Isreali and Palestinian people as useful collateral to further their oppressive thought process. They have certainly won the propaganda war with the Western nations for sure. No government can ignore the middle class white useful fools, and the Islamist vote, a few months shy of a possible election.
You are of course correct. But, the innocent women and children surely do.
The population of Gaza doubled in the 18 years after Israel surrendered the territory (and Egypt refused to assume control). That is the first increase of a population suffering genocide in recorded history.
Hamas is claiming civilian losses that defy expectations – apparently unaware that most authorities warned Israel of civilian deaths in six figures if a ground assault against Iran’s proxies in Gaza were to proceed. Text messaging, broadcasts and leaflet drops warned civilians of coming ground operations and this must be the reason the quoted numbers are so low. Food supplies going into Gaza via the Egyptian border crossing have been seized by Iranian Hamas – there is video evidence for this.
Since Sir Philip Sidney, the Elizabethan courtier, people have left these shores to go and fight in causes in which they believed. The numbers are never great. U.K. subjects who do should be advised they face possible sanction – if they survive and wish to return to the U.K. and that is all. The U.K. courts do not claim Universal Jurisdiction so prosecutions for activities elsewhere cannot be undertaken.
The only Genocide is what Palestinians want to do and say they want to do.
I don’t know why people would reply to a comment about the ICJ genocide case without knowing about it but apparently people will do that. 🤷♂️
The “motion” was brought by the ANC. Funny that they have a historical axe to grind with Israel eh? So they did it before they are booted out of government later this year. Study some history.
While I feel very sorry for the innocent civilians in Gaza, the Hamas regime carried out a calculated atrocity that’s hard to understand in its unfathomable depravity and brutality.
They created a situation of total war in effect, it should have been no suprise that Israel dropped the hammer….
Hamas need to surrender, if they gave the remotest shit about the Palestinians, they would.
They put their bunkers and facilities under schools and hospitals.
Hamas must take full responsibility, they lit the match and unleashed hell on their heads.
We all know Iran is the puppet master here, coordinating, training , funding and equipping as part of their never ending campaign to destroy Israel and destabilise the entire region.
Iran’s time of reckoning is coming, that vile regime needs to be decapitated, degrade it’s military capability sufficiently and the oppressed Iranian people will likely rise up to overthrow them..
If they are stupid enough to directly attack Israel, they can expect a full on Hebrew hammering.
excellent commentary John
Cheers mate, what a depressing time we live in….
Ah the oft overused term genocide, the same terminology my local socialist workers clowns were shouting about in Colchester today! Ah those 3 blokes were the most useful fools to Hamas, wonder if they will ever realise it!
I doubt it mate, the hatred of the Jews burns very deep within some of the socialists, Starmers mob are working overtime, desperately trying to keep a lid on them….
If the ICJ rules against Israel it will just mean they have redefined genocide even further to cover good, justifiable acts as well as evil. This is something that is already there in its current definitions.
I don’t think the UK should intervene between Iran and Israel. Israel has gone from to defender to aggressor they have broken international law and even after the west condemned some attacks they still continue with their all out tactics no matter how many civilians are killed. The UK are on the righteous side in Ukraine but I don’t think this is the case with Israel. If the west intervene in this way Israel thinks it has the wests approval. All arms trade with Israel should be suspended until Israel pulls back to a defensive stance then let the aid groups go in under the UN flag to assist and evacuate as many citizens that want to go and to restore some medical zones if need be protected by UN forces. I’ll wait for the negative comments to this with 🤔 wonder to what people think 🤔
truth
My take with Iran is, its a very aggressive colonolial empirical type state . If we get the map out we can see it has control or majority control of Iraq , Syria ,Lebanon , Yemen and Gaza . Its secret service are also aggressive abroad and definitely active in uk .
So when Hezbollah , Gaza or Syrian militia fire missiles into Israel like they have been doing before the Iran embassy in Syria incident , its all done by the order of Iran and its republican guard. So puts Israel in a difficult situation . Granted bombing the Iran embassy was a very dubious idea. But there is no doubt Iran needs to be stopped as they are not friends with the west . Yemen shipping a good example, which directly effects uk trade . And when Iran gets nuclear weapons this may well embolden them to be more aggressive in international politics. This russia china Iran axis is just one off constant harassment to exploit weaknesses in the west for their own empirical gains , all 3 nations are land grabbing and need to be stopped . Though yes uk has taken sides in effect with Israel and yet again our 2 percent budget is woefully inadequate for this escalation me thinks , considering last week we have seemingly entrenched ourselves further with ukraine defence . I cant see how the 2% and foreign policy can continue side by side 🤔
Iran leadership isn’t even a friend to its own people.
Was Isreal the aggressor reference Iran. Isreal has never threatened to wipe Iran from the map. So any act to prevent such an action could be said to be legitimate which includes targeting build up of weapons and command and control structures within Iran sphere of influence. Also Isreal never claim responsibility for the attack that Iran responded to, if Iran has evidence it should have gone to the UN with evidence and called for an international team to investigate the incident. But probably that team would have uncovered evidence of other unsavoury activities that Iran was doing at the site.
Gaza and Iran shouldn’t be linked but they are because of Iran. We have the current situation in Gaza because or Iran funding Hamas whilst leaving huge parts of its own population to struggle and should they complain or protest are crushed. So on the other side of the argument perhaps Iran should cease all proxy funding and focus on its own internal population and give them the freedoms and life they deserve instead of funding death and misery in the region.
That’s not how it works. Hamas launched an assault on Israel, the Israelis are retaliating. Unless Hamas surrenders and Israel doesn’t stop, they don’t get to claim Israel is the one attacking them.
As for the international law argument, terrorism is against international law. Cutting the heads off of innocent civilians is against international law. Using civilians as human shields is against international law (I think, I need to double check that one).
There is no “righteous” side when it comes to this kind of war. This isn’t a conflict between two civilised nations where there’s an agreed code of conduct (and even those tend to get unpalatable rather quickly); this is a war between a brutal group of fanatics supported by equally brutal local regimes, and a state that has spent its entire existence being threatened and attacked, and has concluded that violence is the only way to make peace last.
I certainly don’t approve of the way Israel is conducting this war, particularly the hateful actions being performed on a personal level by troops, but I’m also not going to pretend that Israel isn’t, relatively speaking, in the right.
Spoken like a true civvy nice and safe in your nice warm cosy home. Israel has crossed a line it doesn’t matter if Hamas was using a hospital or civilians as shields you don’t use indiscriminate bombing and then try and blame Hamas. I’ve seen friends killed because leaders are trying to prove a point. It takes a bigger person to say ok we’ve proved our point then they can take the moral high ground. If we get drawn into a conflict I hope to see you sign up and I’ll see you on the front line.
I’m sorry for your loss, but it’s a tad hypocritical to demand Israel stops when under the same circumstances we did the same.
During the Second World War, we burnt large parts of Germany to the ground, civilians and all, to defeat the Nazis and the the threat to our civilisation they represented. While we might express regret that such actions were taken, at no point does anyone look back and say “We should’ve stopped when we pushed them back to Germany and given them the chance to surrender”.
You don’t leave an existential threat to your people sat on the doorstep. Israel and the UN have spent 70+ years trying to find a peaceful solution to this mess, while their neighbours decided the solution was to repeatedly invade and attempt to exterminate the Jews; Hamas was elected on a platform of destroying Israel, for Christ’s sake.
A genuine question: do you believe that Israel ceasing fire and withdrawing is going to result in anything other than Hamas rebuilding it’s strength and resuming hostilities?
During WW2 Britain avoided bombing civilians until Germany started the Blitz and we responded in kind, I don’t agree with those tactics but that was a different time. Nowadays a soldiers main priority is to protect civilians at all costs it’s easy blowing up a building instead of clearing it British soldiers are experts in urban warfare we train to negate the loss of civilian lives. You need to weigh up the loss of civilians to the loss of combatants if civilian loss out weights of the combatants loss then that is crossing a line and you have to take the responsibility of your actions that is the difference between now and WW2. But Israel is using WW2 tactics the same as Russia in Ukraine. What I suggested is Israel goes on the defensive and allow aid organisation to go in under UN flag and establish safe zones for evacuation of civilians and for medical centres to be set up and if needed to be protected by UN forces which I would gladly serve with, which you would probably find most UK service personnel would do the same. Israel needs to stop indiscriminated bombing, and went to a defensive stance Hamas would have to stop using civilians as human shields they would have to go on the offensive if they wanted to continue.. Israel going on defensive is not a weakness but a strength they’ve proven their determination and resolve. Unless you advocate a complete destruction of Gaza to eradicate Hamas no matter the civilian cost or go one better and use a nuclear weapon they may have. At some point enough is enough. Remember Hamas may be a terrorist organisation recognised by the west but they are freedom fights by the Palestinians.
It was a different time for us; we’ve had nearly 8 decades without a major threat to the British Isles, and aside from terror attacks we’ve had over 3 decades without even an acknowledged enemy to focus our defence against. Even when we were at war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the country itself was fundamentally at peace. Morality flourishes when survival isn’t on the table.
The Israelis haven’t had that luxury. They founded a country in the aftermath of a world war that Jewish people suffered pretty badly in, only to spend most of the next century being told to die by their neighbours. Peaceful discussion has yielded no results. Restraint in the past has resulted in a continuous cycle of attacks and retaliation, with no end in site.
In the event of what you’re suggesting, where would you evacuate the civilians to? If Hamas attacks the UN troops, what would the response be? And to ask the same question I asked previously, do you believe that Israel ceasing fire and withdrawing is going to result in anything other than Hamas rebuilding it’s strength and resuming hostilities?
You can ask that question over and over no one knows till it happens it only takes one to show good faith. If I was on the ground and Hamas attack a safe zone we would respond. But why would Hamas attack a Palestinian safe zone it would be counter productive since in their mind they are fighting for the freedom of Palestine. I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye because we have got different perspectives of war.
Have 29 comments been deleted? What happened?
The British people serving are Jews by religion, if they step into Israel they get called up for national service if they are settled there ,I’m