HMS Queen Elizabeth will shortly arrive in Scotland to load up on ammunition ahead of a major NATO deployment.
The aircraft carrier is due to leave Portsmouth on Sunday night.
The 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier is returning to Glenmallan in Scotland for a routine logistics visit.
The vessel has visited the Northern Ammunition Jetty at Glen Mallan near Faslane multiple times since it was upgraded.
According to a news release on the upgrade work:
“We awarded a £67m contract to VolkerStevin in 2019. Alongside them, we worked with managing agent Jacobs, which provided engineering and professional services, as well as designer Arch Henderson. In completing this major project, £20m was spent with local suppliers and small and medium enterprises in Scotland. The jetty was last upgraded in the 1970s and had reached the end of its economic life. The upgrade work has not only extended the life of the jetty by an estimated fifty years, but has also made the site accessible for the Royal Navy’s aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales.
In fact, HMS Queen Elizabeth visited part way through the work, back in March 2021, in preparation for her first operational deployment. This was not originally planned but became necessary when the scale of the ship’s deployment increased, presenting the team with a challenge to make the jetty operational in time for her arrival. Everyone involved, from DIO, VolkerStevin, Jacobs and the various subcontractors worked closely together to enable HMS Queen Elizabeth to berth at the unfinished jetty, which she did successfully.”
Loading up for exercises and a bit extra just in case it goes down to the read sea? Still nothing on ds30 mounts? We need at least those or bofors 40mm plus 3p ammo on two and maybe 2x sea ceptor batteries on aft areas too for layers of defence for leakers / saturation attacks. Houthis are getting smarter all the time and need to be lucky all the time. The loss of a single f35 pays for all of that. If need be get weapons officers from elsewhere, we will not have the luxury of a as frigate screen… Read more »
^They need to be lucky once.
Absolutely. If nothing else. The Houthi thing is invaluable for training and experience in fighting off drone attacks…be they swarm, large, small or fast. Throw in a few proper ASHM and ballistic missiles, priceless. There’s one thing firing as target drones. And another targeting fighty drones actually coming at you. SEA viper may be expensive but actually firing it at a proper target is worth any number of drills. Bet the Chinese are very envious of all this operational experience, lacking, as they are virtually any proper operational training. I am not extolling the virtues of the whole situation…its dire,… Read more »
in regards to china…I’m going to take you up on lack of operational training..that’s not true..china undertakes very significant levels of operational training every year..just ask Taiwan…what it lacks is operational experience …the amount of exercises china undertakes in the south china seas is significant…the PLAN does not sit in port…there is a lot of underestimating the enemy that’s goes on, china is a serious power that can and will go toe to toe with the west we underestimated at our peril.
All the exercising and drills they do is only with themselves and in familiar waters. They have zero operational experience. Could they do even something like what the RAF has done with Typhoon strikes in Yemen? fly 3000 miles and hit targets with pin point accuracy in any weather, day or night. I’d probably say no. What is there standard of operational sea training like? We don’t know. How well do the Chinese crews work together, are they free thinkers and tacticians, or do they follow a unexperienced central command structure with orders directlyfrom the central committee. They have a… Read more »
Hello Robert, I keep seeing that you often repeat the saying “We don’t Know”… I can’t help myself thinking that it works both ways…. We Don’t know how effective they would, or may actually be but we should err on the side of caution and take it to be a serious potential threat and plan for the worst rather than dismiss it. As you know all too well, War is a fast learning curve and the Chinese have an awful lot in reserve.
We don’t know. But I’d bet serious money our intelligence services have a pretty good idea. We can be just as devious as they are. Threat evaluations are on-going constantly.
All very true mate…. It’s the Intelligence capability that makes all the difference…. In Peacetime at least….. My personal fear is that we have resorted to monitoring at the expense of preparing though.
I think the spectrum of capabilities to counter China go way beyond escort numbers, etc, and the conventional. Its political, cyber, industrial, international relationships,
the online battle, and influence. And a beefed up RN wouldn’t hurt, too. 👍
We don’t know. That could mean we potentially thrash them and are surprised at how ineffective they are. Or we find they have prepared well and combined with their numbers they royally shaft us.
To say we don’t know but then still dismiss them is arrogance of the highest order and the sort of complacency that leads to disaster.
And that’s the big question isn’t it…. The best thing the “West” could actually do, is to just stop buying Chinese stuff…. simple.
Yep, western greed has sleepwalked us into this position, sadly there is no indication the penny is going to drop anytime soon. If I can I avoid Chinese tat, won’t buy cheap crap off the likes of aliexpress. Its impossible to avoid it to any meaningful length though through lack of any other choice, the opportunities to do so are token gestures sadly. The one saving grace here, China know their economy would bomb in biblical style if it ever kicked off with the west. Hopefully that alone will keep their ambitions in check. The trouble is in a communist… Read more »
Supposedly China has been modifying its economy to not be so vulnerable to outsider influences. It’s been turning inwards and has accepted that it will lose growth but that’s what it needs to do.
How effective this has been is way over my head.
The U.K. would love the chance to have a few percentage points of growth to lose over some years to make its economy less vulnerable. Anything disrupting the U.K. economy puts it into shrinking mode unfortunately.
I really really hope any conflict can be avoided. It really would be bad for the whole world.
Time for a focus on sovereign capability and value. Traditionally done with Tarrifs to get the attention of short sighted people looking only at the transaction.
More subtle to go with Security Concerns like who-are-we (you are CCP) and other indirect action.
We need to be careful we don’t dismiss them as we did the Japanese in WW2 before they defeated our forces & ran wild a while before we got our act together. What we do know is the UK on most fronts has never been so unprepared for war for centuries, as we stand today. With UKR ongoing, Israel-Palestrine kicking off, Houthi’s strangling trade routes, potentially Iran too closing the Gulf oil trade if attacked for its role in recent attacks, potential for N Korea attacking S Korea… … all great distractions setting a very favourable climate for Xi to… Read more »
Defense News “WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force repelled a Chinese invasion of Taiwan during a massive war game last fall by relying on drones acting as a sensing grid, an advanced sixth-generation fighter jet able to penetrate the most contested environments, cargo planes dropping pallets of guided munitions and other novel technologies yet unseen on the modern battlefield. But the service’s success was ultimately pyrrhic. After much loss of life and equipment, the U.S. military was able to prevent a total takeover of Taiwan by confining Chinese forces to a single area. WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force repelled… Read more »
hi Robert in regards to tactical doctrine they tend to train their officers in the Maoist paradigm which is not the wests way but is very far from the soviet way…it’s based on mobile tactics and taking advantage which being inferior…as for not wanting war..no they don’t..but they want and need tiawan more than they want peace.
As Danielle said they other day. It would very much depend on the Wests response if they did try it. Let’s hope the see sense, and let diplomacy do the talking.
well said Mate- as the adage goes
“Better a lean peace then a fat victory”
I’ve heard despite what they look like, their ships are junk.
People who have been on board Chinese ships weren’t impressed with the workmanship. But even shoddily built ships can be dangerous when handled by people who know what they are doing. There is no room for complacency here.
I suspect you are on spot on there Jonno.
Yep never underestimate any potential Enemy regardless of size 🤔 👍
Exactly, That’s just how i see it too….Underestimating ability by not actually knowing is a recipe for Disaster as proven oh so many times throughout history…… and they have numbers, huge numbers with a prolific build program…. I would also add that their latest ships actually look good too, I know that sounds daft but when something looks good, it tends to be good…. Spitfire, Mosquito, Hunter, Vulcan, Concorde are just a few examples…. Their Type 55’s look really good and pack quite a punch (on paper) Stealthy by design, 120 plus VLS, 130mm gun, Torpedo’s and much other kit…..… Read more »
Their VLS numbers alone may be a decisive factor. They could launch them all from one ship and totally delplete the silos of TWO t45s. How efficient their missiles are is irrelevant, we couldn’t just assume they will miss and not intercept them. That’s Russian roulette with multi billion pounds of ships and hundreds of lives at stake.
That’s the RN then out of the fight as we retreat back to port to rearm.
Anyone saying numbers are beaten by quality is kidding themselves when the numbers are so vastly warped in one sides favour.
👌
I reckon that’s how it would go…several hundred missiles blasted off at any and all warships within range.
A T31 with many more camm than we are assuming (,a miserable 12 or 24 if we are lucky) suddenly looks good with its 3 long range and persistant CIWS as a carrier escort. AA
But that is not how naval warfare works. That just shows a total lack of understanding.
Shut up you clueless Walter Mitty. Got any examples of how 21st century works have you? No.
It’s not a game of battleships. Navy’s don’t standoff 50 miles apart and try and throw missiles at each other. To engage over the horizon you need a kill chain. This isn’t a PlayStation game. Warships don’t want to be found. You want to kill another warship. You use the best tool for the job. A nuclear powered hunter killer submarine. Or if in the littoral, a helicopter armed with anti ship missiles. Or a 5th gen F35 using stealth to find track and engage before the enemy even knows a weapon has been deployed. Over the horizon needs off… Read more »
Surely not?
The result of the investigation shows that Walter Mitty is an individual with narcissistic personality disorder since he shows nine diagnostic criteria suggested by the American Psychiatric Association in DSM-5, such as having a grandiose sense of self-importance; is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, …
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The DF-26 has a range of up to 2,500 miles and a 4,000-pound payload.
YJ-12 Eagle Strike 12′) is a Chinese supersonic anti-ship cruise missile.
YJ-18 The YJ–18’s ability to accelerate to supersonic speeds close to its target makes it difficult for ships to destroy the incoming missile
The YJ-21 is a Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile. The missile system is reportedly capable of engaging land targets and surface warships with a hypersonic, manoeuvrable, conventional warhead.
DF-21D The DF–21D is a conventionally armed DF-21 variant designed to attack ships at sea. Sometimes dubbed the “carrier-killer,” U.S. reports suggest
If only the PLAN copied our style! Why don’t they take a decade or more to get vital replacements for aging ships into service, gap basic capabilities, keep reducing numbers, overspecify so it costs loads more, cut numbers ordered, try to do more with less so they run crews into the ground, wear out what few ships we have operational & lose talented & experienced people, hand recruitment to useless private companies who are just in it to maximise profits at the nations expense etc? We have so much they could learn from us.😄
Fair enough. I did mean experience rather than training. The beauty of operating with allies is that everyone does things differently and learning about those differences could make er..the difference when it comes to the action. AA
Center For Strategic And International Studies The First Battle of the Next War: War gaming a Chinese Invasion of Taiwan “CSIS developed a war game for a Chinese amphibious invasion of Taiwan and ran it 24 times. In most scenarios, the United States/Taiwan/Japan defeated a conventional amphibious invasion by China and maintained an autonomous Taiwan. However, this defense came at a high cost. The United States and its allies lost dozens of ships, hundreds of aircraft, and tens of thousands of service members. Taiwan saw its economy devastated. Further, the high losses damaged the U.S. global position for many years.… Read more »
The bit that many think they got wrong is the concept that a single Taiwan based campaign is all that would happen….they miss the point that china is better at political warfare than the west and that an initial defeat will not destabilise the CCP…the CCP have invested as much on internal control as they have on anything else…it’s a who facet of the war they are preparing for…when the 10,000 to hundreds of thousand of dead come in china is pretty dam sure it’s not it that will be destabilised….it will be the US government…china knows it will possibly… Read more »
That’s all very interesting Jonathan, thank you for posting.
One critical issue for all carriers in the future is the ability to defend against drone swarms. As yet they don’t present a problem though developments in this technology are measured in weeks and not years. In the wrong hands, swarms could inflict accumulative damage through multiple attacks. The likelihood of current antiaircraft systems being able to cope could be questionable? The carrier is most vulnerable when laden with exposed aircraft on deck and close to land.
The use of Ukrainian Sea Drones is probably concentrating a few minds too…..
A rapid learning curve and sadly, it’s thanks to the Ukrainian war. I would wager that many of NATO’s land, sea and air systems are all subject to review?
One would certainly hope so…… The Russian Poseidon Torpedo (if it ever got built/existed or actually worked) might just be another subject under review…..
Poseidon is pretty irrelevant tbh.
If it was ever used we would be in all out nuclear war territory and no one is defending against multiple ICBM’s.
Anything Nuclear would also therefore be Irrelevant then …… Except that we have certain capabilities to intercept Ballistic threats but nothing at all to counter Poseidon…..
A strong net should do for Poseidon. The thing would be so noisy if it hits speeds that have thrown around. It’s only got 1 launch sub.
Launching a sub 1000s miles away and everything working all that time is risky aswell. Numerous problems
A timely post over on SKY NEWS
Sean Bell: West must adapt as drones become weapon of choice for military ‘underdogs’ and terror groups
“Drones have provided Ukraine with an asymmetric advantage against Russia, a conventionally superior force, and have been used by the Houthis to disrupt shipping in the Red Sea – and last week an armed drone killed three US service personnel and injured dozens more in Jordan.”
https://
news.sky.com/story/sean-bell-west-must-adapt-as-drones-become-weapon-of-choice-for-military-underdogs-and-terror-groups-13062331
When drone swarms can act in concert and attack en masse say 50 or more at a time from many directions, that’s when its maybe game over. They would certainly blind their target of its radar if they homed in on it.
The requirement is for counter drone drones with a long reach for layered defence.
Even with, lets assume, perfect SAMs & CIWS, how long would missiles & ammo last before enough drones or missiles get through & take out key escorts & carriers?
The QE’s are barely capable of any self defence apart from ageing, questionable, very close range-last ditch Phalanx CIWS when nearly all other navies having large carriers have 3 tier missile defences & often a far larger escort fleet per carrier too.
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I read yesterday, that when the Carrier goes on deployment for the NATO exercises.. A mix of around 20 aircraft – F35’s and Helicopters will be carried.
Involving a United States Destroyer plus a Royal Navy Frigate and two RFA ships escorting/supporting the Carrier. There will also be other Nations involved with escort duties.
Where did you read this?
There is an article on Navy Lookout about QE next deployment.
Deep,
Somewhat disturbing info update per NL– HMS QNLZ will not be participating in Steadfast Defender due to an issue w/ a coupler on the starboard propeller shaft. Admiralty has stated that rhis is not a repetition of previous HMS PWLS problem, however, reports are preliminary. HMS PWLS is being generated on an expedited basis to replace QNLZ. 🤔🤞
Cheers for the update, wasn’t on there earlier in the day, George has some good sources for his intel!
Just as well we have two carriers, but will take PWLS a week or so to be ready I imagine, as she was in maintenance at the time. Although I suspect the RN will move heaven and earth to get her out soonest.
Be really interesting to see what the issue is – design issue? Time will tell.
Sorry, should be NL has good intel sources.
Hi Redshift. As Deep32 says.. ‘Navy Lookout’
She would probably need a dedicated T45 escort to deploy with her to Red sea. Given the continued and disappointing reports of our readiness, I question how much F35 ordinance she is carrying right now.
T45 is already there as are many other ships including the Eisenhower… I wouldn’t think She is carrying any ordinance at the moment as she is still in Portsmouth but I’ll bet she will get a fair amount at Glen Mallan.
I meant one T45 tasked to protect civilian ships and one dedicated to shielding the carrier, as other peop!e here have pointed out she is a big target and the Houthis only have to get lucky once.
Usually there is a capable ship up-threat?
Or its radius of engagement is up-threat……
That said there needs to be a means of dealing with leakers or saturation attacks.
Where the DS30’s on the capable ship don’t have the range.
DS30/40’s and Phalanx on a carrier with EW will be pretty effective. But we won’t want to use full EW in this situation.
Iran and therefore China are sitting and monitoring.
Iran and therefore China are sitting and monitoring.
A key point and why F-35 sales to Turkie were not allowed while S-400 instructors were local, so able to log data.
If the strategic result is the enemy having data for our current weapons and sensors the houti will have done their sponsors proud.
Well….up to a point.
There are loads of modes on these systems. Some will very deliberately not be used.
Given the overwatch and picture from US drones it is very likely that there is warning and tracks of incoming.
This means that SAMPSON doesn’t work at highest power or most exotic modes.
Likewise with the missiles homing radar it is hardly worth using radar modes designed to defeat sophisticated countermeasures when there are none?
Thanks! Good to know.
Simple as possible is good for Engineering reasons too.
Hopefully the kinetic event of arrival on target means that no electronics remain after detonation for any reverse engineering too.
In Ukraine the capture and reverse engineering of new drone weapons is a major industry and part of the ongoing combat of technology warfare. So EW systems that can fry one and make it land intact are a key resource. However a more forensic reconstruction is also possible given the time..
Yes I’m with you on that “Layered Defence” is the key though…. In a Hot Zone I would hope for at least the two T45’s plus at least two T23’s…. one T45 can only be “In Range” in a small part of that area…. as proven in recent weeks…. Luckily there are a few other ships there as well. Will we go though ?
Hi mate, looks as though Big Liz has an issue and will be replaced but PWLS instead. Can’t see her going for a week or so.
Yes, I just read that….. The Lights are burning bright all night on POW….. I just checked in 4.30 am to see what’s happening but the cam has frozen !
That is not how aircraft carriers are operated. Have you heard of US Navy carriers in the Red Sea having to use close in weapon systems? No is the answer. A QE class would have just as much protection. They are not operated like big Destroyers with aircraft. Entirely different operating concept.
there should be some second hand ds30 mounts available soon off the type 23s , better then nothing.
The DS-30M Mk II cannons for the QEC were delivered years ago (2018/19?) by MSI but put straight in to storage. The problem was the discovery that the carriers were seriously under manned and their complement needed to be increased by nearly 100. Not fitting the cannons saved a few crew members. But it’s crazy when risks are being accepted to two £4 billion capital ships in order to free up a few posts, which were then effectively used to assign personnel to promoting gender diversity and inclusion (D&I) in the RN, and running training courses to prevent “unconscious bias”.
Well now that QE is US due to a shaft problem maybe they stick some of the crew over to POW and fit the damn guns.
That is bollox.
The cannons are not crewed during firing. They are remote operated. All you need is a loader to fill up the ammo bins and anyone can be a loader.
The D&I posts are shore drafts. So do your time at see and get a shore draft. They are not taking anyone from a sea going billet. These D&I posts have been in existence for years.
I’m not convinced. The ships still need a few personnel to do daily SOPs and operate the canons remotely when required. Not a big number, but also not zero. The fact that the guns were delivered by the manufacturer years ago but have not been installed is pretty damming.
Exactly this.
There is another reason for not fitting them. Not for now.
Concur. We need to be ahead of the game at every turn. The ship was a huge investment and I fail to understand the reluctance to put in place the tools to protect that investment; and more importantly protect the most valuable assets – the crew. I am led to believe that sailors are hard to come by at the moment.
Is there any truth in this???SKY NEWSMonday 29 January 2024 11:32, UKUK military’s readiness for ‘all-out war’ in doubt, say MPs – as HMS Queen Elizabeth set to miss NATO drills “A new report by the Defence Committee comes amid intensifying debate about whether we are on the cusp of another world war – and whether Britain would be ready to fight. The report also found the military has “key capability and stockpile shortages” that would hamper its ability to engage in “all-out, prolonged war”. It comes as the Royal Navy announced that its most powerful warship, HMS Queen Elizabeth,… Read more »
If true, I guess another trip to Rosyth’s dry dock might be required ? The clouds are gathering with all the makings of a Perfect Storm…. Astute’s sat around waiting for Infrastructure to be built before major maintenance/refit work can be done… a handful of T23’s and just a couple of T45’s, not enough F35’s for the designed carrier load, just 70 available Typhoons, not enough crews, Fort tied up going nowhere soon and no-one in Government seemingly giving a damn……
It’s never going to happen!
Well’ Scotland is safer that the Gulf I suppose and a NATO exercise to…South Atlantic or Norway? Somewhere away from nasty people with guns anyway.
“Well Scotland is safer than the Gulf”…….. Try waving an England Flag on a night out in the Gorbals mate….. 😂😎
If you go for a Night Out in the Gorbals then you are seriously lost ! Area between George Square and Sauchiehall Steet is rather interesting even for us more Mature Gents.
Don’t upset the Natives they are pretty friendly folks.
I used to visit some Suppliers up there and had a T Shirt printed.
Derby Accent
Scots born and Bred
🏴 Rugby Fan
Folks were quite understanding, I just explained that at 6 months Old my parents took me south as a Missionary. 😉
😂… Funnily enough when I last went to Scotland, I was heading for Stirling but ended up in Newton Mearns …. not far from my Auntie’s place…. Navigation was never my strongest !!!!
Officer material 🙃
😆
I was born in Wales. Reckon it would help?
My Sincerest condolences mate ……. It’s always painful to read such harrowing circumstances !!!! 😂😂😂…. just kidding mate !
👍🍺
Good luck to her. Practice makes perfect as they say.
This is hms hood waiting to happen when one of our carriers gets hitting the nation will be shocked . The fact is an arleigh burkje had to respond to phalanx says everything.
When HMS Hood sailed, she was escorted by HMS Prince of Wales, POW was very new and still had contractors and Issues but unlike the Mighty Hood, She survived the battle.
Unfortunately weak deck armour and a lucky shot on the magazine meant that my cousin and most hands were lost. At least it was quick.
Age shall not weary them nor the years condem,
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we will remember them…
Latest news is that her sailing has been scrubbed due to the discovery of issues with her Starboard Shaft, and that Prince of Wales is accelerating her readiness to replace her in the NATO Exercise.
OT but on topic QE has a prop shaft issue and will not sail, POW will rush its prep and go instead!!!!!!
Another Prop shaft issue?
It would seem so but no info on how bad, design issue or shite maint!
They seem to Prop up from time to time.
Navy Lookout have the details and there seems to be a couple of Posters actually with first hand Knowledge…. one seems to like the words “Grown-ups” and “Big Grown-ups”… he seems to be a bit irked !!!
The ME Dept will be massively risk adverse now following earlier issues. Any snag will end up as a ship stopper OPDEF.
This is why we have 2 carriers…
Used to have 3 and Ocean though…….. Not the same but Numbers do help in situations like this…. POW now has to go to a completely new level of operations on the largest exorcize for decades and so far she has yet to embark more than a couple of F35’s for trials… It will be interesting to see how she and her crew perform… two of my Lad’s mates were due to go, not sure if they will still go, time will tell.
Agreed mate
I think all you expert’s have to make yourselves feel better by your ingrained thinking that everything that comes out of China is crap I think if war break’s out with China there will be horrendous western casualties from like 20 missiles for every ship and our reaction of course will be nuclear.
Just my 10p worth.
Based upon recent events and projected trends, believe there should be a reasonably serious discussion and plan developed before dispatching HMS PWLS to ME. In addition to collecting one or perhaps three USMC F-35B squadrons, would recommend a few Arleigh Burkes. Preferably, all of them. Maybe an SSGN or two. Perhaps a squadron or two of BUFFs. Deployment to either Eastern Med or Red Sea could become a seriously sporting proposition. 🤔
POW has relatively little experience as a Ship operating large numbers of F35’s, she would need to gain this experience first….. Lot’s of work being carried out on her in Portsmouth.
I noticed that Bone did their mission direct from home base to Yemen with tanker support.
Can B-52 do that or does RAF Mildenhall provide a way point for rest and fuel?