It has been reported that while assault ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark have been saved, at least two Type 23 frigates will have to be axed.

The Sunday Times has reported that at least two Type 23 frigates will have to be axed. Luke Pollard, Labour MP for Sutton and Devonport, was quoted as saying:

“We need to be aware there are capability gaps in our armed forces. We can cope if there is a plan to cover those. We are still in the same place we were months ago on cuts to the Royal Marines and the amphibious ships.

This is yet more speculation about the cuts. Because the government can’t agree on how much to spend on defence, it has pushed these decisions into the long grass, and that continues to erode confidence.We need a fully funded and capable military. That means no more cuts and proper decisions about base-porting.”

An MoD spokesperson said in a statement:

“The Prime Minister, Chancellor and Defence Secretary will continue to work closely throughout the next phase of the Modernising Defence Programme and will keep the House updated as decisions are made. We will be in a position to share more detailed conclusions over the Autumn.”

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Paul H
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Paul H

But a Defence minister has previously stated that there would be no drop below 19 escorts. Oh…

andy reeves
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andy reeves

and so it goes on cut…….cut…. cut if the R.N was a tree it would have fell over long ago

Aethelstan the Curious.
Guest
Aethelstan the Curious.

I think most cuts to the Armed Forces in recent times have occurred under Tory Governments!
I also recall them castigating Gordon Brown when he finally started to equip the Army in Afghanistan with sufficient armoured vehicles.
Let’s hope Sec of State for defence is successful. Would not like to see the likes of the F35A or B farce repeated again as cover for other cuts or inaction.

jon agar
Guest
jon agar

yep we now have a Army that equipped to deal with a small hard to find enemy in a desert environment. the army no longer has a pool of vehicles it owns but draws them from the lease pool. now only buys specialist equipment direct. all goes back to corrupt companies ripping off the UKgov By bidding low and then charging for changes. off the shelf purchases of existing equipment stop this just some high wanker will allways want Blue rather than green……

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

pity the public can’t take an axe to the amount of ‘taxpayer money’ dependent politicians there are and do away with some constituencies.

Trevor G
Guest
Trevor G

No problem. They will just start counting the Rivers as frigates, just repaint the pennant numbers.

Simples..

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

should have done it years ago. as a platform, a river could, if armed fully be classed as a corvette/light frigate its interesting to see the sigma corvette of the moroccan navy specs; just 10 meters longer 6 knots faster, 20 more crew, yet comes with two, triple torpedo tubes, two quad missile launchers, a 76mm main gun. if the u.k did this with the rivers redesignate them as corvettes of if configured as light asw frigates, which most countries would. , the fleet could, in say 7 or 8 months be 9 ships better off would be nice to… Read more »

Matt Bowyer
Guest
Matt Bowyer

A River class with a few extra weapons would be a River class with a few extra weapons, not a frigate.

Ross
Guest
Ross

Strap in lads, it can (and probably will) get much worse…

Scenario 1: a messy EU withdrawal tilts the UK economy into recession. The Tories, reluctant to increase borrowing to any significant degree, decide to tighten expenditures to match dwindling revenues. Guess what’ll be prioritised for the chopping block?

Scenario 2: the same messy withdrawal happens, but the Tories are so unpopular that Corbyn etc get into Downing St. They may be willing to borrow more, but would anyone truly expect them not to slash defence at the first opportunity?

Dark days ahead

expat
Guest
expat

Because its 2% of GDP any drop in GDP reduces the budget. Both parties can still claim they meet their manifesto pledges of 2%, after all politicians never lie.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Ross – I am sure it was just forgetfulness but you left out Scenario 3: TM come back with a Trade Deal and the UK prospers as never before. Snap election and she wins hands down And actually Scenario 2 will never happen after today’s Labour Conference was told that Labour will ignore the wishes of millions of Labour Leave voters across the country and support another Referendum. TM only lost her majority in 2017 because of barely 1,750 votes spread over a dozen constituencies. Both parties had Brexit in their Manifestos so that was a neutral but… Read more »

Ross
Guest
Ross

Chris, I appreciate the reply. I take the odd point you make, but with all respect, I just can’t be bothered checking numbers etc. Just off the top of my head however, your “Jewish vote”/labour MP numbers, and I’ll take as kind a reading of that as possible here, don’t make sense. My view of Brexit, as of the morning after the vote, has been something along the lines of “fair enough, let’s get on with it and do the best we can as a country”. Just one point though…you do not leave trade deals of this magnitude and become… Read more »

Darren
Guest
Darren

Dear Ross. With all due respect, this eu is not a trade deal, but a despotic empire that has become more controlling and us more subservient over the years since 1973 or 1975 and especially in the 2000s, it uses this market to promote its real agenda which is political dominance and control over us. The direct cost of eu is not this contribution in which we get money back to further eu promotion, but around 60-70 billions pounds year. Direct and indirect costs are said to be around 10% of our GNP/GDP (cap, cfp, regs curruption etc.. Milne cost… Read more »

Darren
Guest
Darren

Remainers in Cabinet will try everything to keep Chequers because it is the vehicle for their defence giveaway.
Losing defence to the EU gives Remainers a “U-bend route for the UK to come back fully under EU authority in future,” as Lieutenant-General Riley observed.

Darren
Guest
Darren

Also, do not forget. In the past, when asked if Britain left this muck (eu), eec ec commissioners in the past said Britain would leave with a free trade deal and no problem. How all that has changed and how this is being ignored because of the doctrine and, mentality of old-fashioned empire thought and of new age imperialists who love this eu.

Darren
Guest
Darren

The cost of this eu directly and indirectly in terms of Queen Elizabeth carriers priced correctly (i.e. 2.5 billion pounds now) is around 22 Queen Elizabeths. Hows that! Plus, in the worst case senario, business still continues. Does anybody think we lose 8% of our economy? Would this eu despotic empire want that too?

John
Guest
John

Another leaver descending into ranting about an “evil empire” and ignoring the reality of the damage leaving the EU will do to us. How can we be the EU biggest market export when we are part of the EU? someone didnt think this through, maybe if the Leavers in Govt actually stood up for once and didnt run and hide becuase they know what a mess they have made, arguging over Chequers is irrelevant as its all down to the EU to decide to agree with whatever the UK puts forward. And as for ” Scenario 3: TM come back… Read more »

andy reeves
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andy reeves

sorry chum, but i can’t agree with much of that.labour/ tory? same animals.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

can we bin politics now please? i think we’ve all had enough by now.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

comrade corbyn and his commie gang are the most dangerous people in britain it’ll be goodbye f 35, goodbye,prince of wales, type 31, won’t happen. type 26 will be at least 8 years late. so sad.

Ross
Guest
Ross

Agreed

andy reeves
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andy reeves

slashing defence is the only thing they’re consistently good at lets face it they’ve had plenty of practice

barry white
Guest
barry white

Aircraft carrier with no escorts Wow thats a first for any nation And dont say we will be defended by the US when we go to sea thats not the point I myself would rather have escorts and anfibs ships anytime as the yanks have all the carriers and firepower Be honest with yourselves we will never go into a battle by ourselves will we I was in the last battle we had by ourselves and to be honest we were lucky then and our navy was a lot bigger then and it wasnt a first rate nation we fought… Read more »

Callum
Guest
Callum

It’s not the carriers that will be without escorts, it’s British deployments abroad that will suffer. We’ve lost a lot of relevance abroad due to the constant withdrawal back to home waters. Started with the disbandment of the Eastern Fleet and the withdrawal from East of Suez, continued with the end of British anti-piracy ops in the around Africa, and if we lose any more escorts then our role in standing NATO deployments will be degraded as well. Reading into what that headline is saying though, it makes no mention of changes to ship acquisitions, just current ships that in… Read more »

Ross Hobson
Guest
Ross Hobson

that last paragraph is something i have been reading for two decades of cuts.

we have not seen one increase in numbers during that time. not one. It has just been a constant loss of capability in the promise of things being turned around somewhere down the line. And then we have an election and all of that slate is wiped clean by the new government and we are back to square one; taking away the bones from the skeleton crew we currently call our Armed Forces.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

may as well sell prince of wales, no aircraft, no point building it.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Yes there is Andy!

Because when the QE is in refit we still have carrier capability.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

and the planes and escorts?

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

if you won’t operate two why build two? the ocean gap would still need to be filled

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

you forgot to say, no planes the u.s has 8 ships in reserve on hold for donation elsewhere, why not ask our biggest ally if we could have them? google the naval inactive ships register, THAT’S where we should be shopping also google AMARG inventory (the aircraft maintenance and regeneration group facility, and see where our air shopping could be done 24 nations still effectively operate the f 16, well there are over —-450 f-16’s and f 15’s in storage for future regeneration also two b1 lancers that could give the R.A.F a bomber command again.8 jinxed astutes costing 112… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

a lot of the trouble comes from poor decision making, i’d say one of the worst, apart from the f 35, the u.s has 5 ships on hold in reserve at the naval inactive ships facility(google it) we should be making moves for them, at least they are already built.the u.s is retiring a ticondaroga air defence cruiser per year, there’s 5 in reserve. astutes at 1.4 billion each the average conventional like say, the gotland class come in at 100 million 1 astute or 14 gotlands(the swedish submarine that eluded an entire u.s carrier screen getting into a position… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

one area i respect the ruskies about is that wherever there is a space, a weapon is fitted, a defensive missile system in the albions, a gun and harpoon, fitted to the bays,plus asw torpedoes these are BIG SHIPS the’fitted for’ but not with is a disgrace and a con. put the 20mm cannon onto the archers which they wee designed to carry give the two scimitars of the gibraltar squadron a long and well deserved retirement and replace it with a 8 ship archer squadron

Rob
Guest
Rob

I don’t understand this. We are apparently getting 8 T26s and at least 5 T31s. Unless we are now saying that this will not happen what is the point of cutting the T23s? I might be clutching at straws but perhaps it is to do with the transfer of kit from them to the T26s. Bet it’s not mind.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Cuts now carrot later.

A few years down the line the carrot is psr5 bitten off.

Regular as clockwork for HMG.

Julian
Guest
Julian

Exactly Daniele. The age old strategy. Government thinking goes as follows… We announced T31 a while ago with the promise that it could increase escort numbers. Hmmm. We now want to cut defence spending even further so it’s going to be tricky increasing numbers from the current 19. What to do? I know, let’s cut the current escort numbers to 17, wait a few years until everyone who doesn’t pay close attention (i.e. most of the public) forget that we had 19 only a few years earlier, and then in a blaze of totally artificial glory announce that with 5… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

and those like us who do care.

4thwatch
Guest
4thwatch

This problem lies at the feet (of clay) of the PM Teresa May. Already the defence budget is by the standards of many years less than 2%. It seems these politicians must be held to account legally for any future Naval or military losses that may result from their underfunding the RN and defence in general.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

cancel the 26’6s commit to 10 type 31’s. buy 2nd hand, everyone else does the u.s is putting the rim 116 combined anti air/ ciws @ 800,000 each onto their new carriers same size as a phalanx and no doubt more expensive sea ceptor (cost unknown or disclosed).

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

i have my doubts that the t 31 will ever happen

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the u.s routinely operate ships for far longer than the u.k the type 42 could have given 5 more years per ship. i know, because i was on one

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the chileans have done life extension work to their type 23’s and are saying that they will operate them until 2028, so should we. the americans routinely operate their ships well beyond the projected service lives. imagine if we’d made the same commitment to the type 42’s, those given life extensions, refitted with say, sea ceptor, artisan radar and a better sonar suite, the R.N could look very respectable and be impressive sizewise. the rate of production of ships from the clyde yards doesn’t inspire the full 8 ship type 26 order will take forever. as for the type 31,… Read more »

Robert Wagstaff
Guest
Robert Wagstaff

5 x Type 31
5 x River batch 2’s
3 x Type 26
=
13

What is the current amount of Type 23’s? Oh, 13 . . .

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

My prediction.

6 T26
6 T45
8 T31

T23 cut in short term due to manpower constraints.

Julian
Guest
Julian

Very likely. Quite clever actually (careful, you could be in danger of landing a job in politics). It gives a headline figure of 20 escorts hence delivering on the tease delivered at the T31 announcement of a potential increase in escort numbers but getting there by trading 2 T26 for 3 T31. If T31 really does come in at £250m a pop then a definite cost reduction, crew-requirement-wise maybe not so much though. How bad that outcome would be will all hinge on exactly what the RN-spec T31 ends up looking like. If cost really is capped at £250m each… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I still hope just 12 high end escorts can do the job as long as they are not frittered away in singleton roles and concentrated with the CBG or an amphibious group. 3 groups of 4. 1 ready. 1 training. 1 refit or other tasks. Is this even possible???

All other roles a mix of T31 River2 and RFA motherships.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

mine? no type 31’sits all a political gamble and won’t happe ,just like 12 type 45’s 13 type 26’6,2 carriers operational. not until the planes arrive i’d like to see the u.k cancel the number of 138 to say 90 and let the yanks know that the u.k is not a mug, and that unless the us plane builders pull their fingers out, the u.s can count the loss in custom

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Agree on F35 reduction to 90 or so.

Seems an easy cut to make as they do not even exist yet.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

why are the carrier and albions not included in the numbers? if the bulwark and albion had the weaponry they have more than enough room for.and should have.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the issue of manpower is overblown, short term 12 month contracts and a signing on payment to get former sailors to come back, would be a worthwhile experiment.even work experience with a signing on option at the end of it could well improve the pool of bodies available.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

most of them are in refit or maintenance including lancaster which was left to rot in pompey harbour for 12 months, and only now has been pulled in for refit alongside poor dauntless

Levi Goldsteinberg
Guest
Levi Goldsteinberg

Not much substantive here. Expecting and hoping this to be tabloid baiting

Mark Latchford
Guest
Mark Latchford

Yep, I’ve had a look online to try and find anything to back this story up – couldn’t find a thing.

Captain P Wash
Guest
Captain P Wash

That’s It, I’m moving to China.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

can i order a takeaway?

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

five destroyers, boiled ric,e please.

julian1
Guest
julian1

If this happens then I assume that these are ships otherwise laid up in port due to lack of crews. If so, they are unusable anyway so why let them decay and earn a bit of money to boot? However if this Brexit mis-adventure does go through then RN must expand to support our dreams. Of course, lack of growth due to Brexit-thingy puts budgets under strain which is why we don’t crew properly anyway. Save ourselves a whole load of grief by keeping the economy strong and staying in EU. Might have more money to better fund HM forces… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Oh god Julian1 don’t open that can of worms here again.

We had a vote.
Biggest vote in this nations history apparently.
That vote was fully endorsed by parliament itself.
The result of that vote was leave.
By a majority.
That is democracy.
If we can just end up ignoring democracy like that I fully expect:

Civil War.
Parliament burned to the ground.
Anarchy.
All future general elections ignored.

Because what is the bloody point if elected politicians fail to carry out the wishes of the electorate who put them there!!!!!?

This country is supposed to have the mother of all parliaments not acting like a banana republic!

Rant over.
Calm restored.

julian1
Guest
julian1

maybe, that was the decision from 2 years ago but that doesn’t make it sane or right
government has wasted 2 years in negotiations and to achieve what? just think the good things that could have been done in this time and the extra growth we could get in coming years.
instead the outlook is bleak yet people still want to go ahead. I will never, ever understand why.

mark my words it will be reversed at some point as all countries will need to belong to a bloc

hf
Guest
hf

If Putin & Trump are in favour, as they were, it’s clearly a bad idea.

John
Guest

You either accept democracy or you don’t. Country voted to leave the EU, ergo we are leaving the EU. The government can either sieze the opportunity and make the best they can of it or just drag their feet and make a fudge of it. Most of the country would rather that the government made brexit a success. No point hoping we are going to stay in, the debate has moved on. Will be interesting to see its impact on our armed forces. Interesting times ahead.

sjb1968
Guest
sjb1968

Julian your are right about politicians not getting on with it and that has been the overriding comments from ordinary people for the last 18 months or so. However, you miss the fundamental point about BREXIT that goes to very core of what democracy is all about – The recognition that the will of the majority prevails. Everything else you have written is just your opinion on what might have been just like everyone else’s. I suspect you thought we should have joined the euro, you would have been in good company with many senior business leaders, trade unionists, economists… Read more »

Marc
Guest
Marc

So a cabinet and Civil Service full to the rafters with remainers is “negotiating”our withdrawal from the EU as if that was ever going to work in the UKs favour.

4thwatch
Guest
4thwatch

The EU has proved a disaster. It has removed responsibility and accountability further from the people/voters than at any time since 1642 and the Civil War. There is a large body of political thought in the EU that is an existential and destructive threat to the UK. For this take the Irish boarder and Gibraltar as the red flags. In the 1960’s with the rundown of the Empire the political establisment who had suffered two world wars in their lifetime and been humiliated by Suez in 1956 looked at Europe and envied their strong recovery from WW2 and saw what… Read more »

4thwatch
Guest
4thwatch

Correction-Irish Border.

barry white
Guest
barry white

Daniele Mandelli Its not a rant its the truth
And that stupid guy Starmer say remain should be on the ballot paper if there’s another referendum on give Brussels the ammunition it needs to not give us a deal knowing that there will be another vote with that option
Starmer the ex DPP No wonder crime is so bad if this is like al the judgements he made as DPP in the past

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

Yeah because the Brexit negotiations have gone great so far if not for those pesky Remainers…face palm!

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Well. There is an unelected civil servant in the Cabinet Office Europe unit running our brexit strategy on behalf of the PM. An unelected europhile bypassing the Sec of State for Brexit. Not good.

In fact. This whole affair, voted for in a democratic vote, is being conducted by two groups of unelected officials in the EU and in London. Think about that.

So yes face palm all you like it’s being sabotaged on a daily basis.

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

Danielle. That’s not how the civil service works. Civil servants offer impartial advice, then provided it’s lawful, executes the minister’s decision. Any fifth column conspiracy theory is nonsense I’m afraid.

Captain P Wash
Guest
Captain P Wash

Don’t you just love the Re Moaners. You Lost now Get Over It and start to Back Your Country or Hop on the Ferry and Let the Majority Of us Get On with It.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

Don’t you just love the Quitlings. You Won now Stop Moaning about it and start to Back Your Country by supporting a Peoples Vote to stop this utter disaster!

Marc
Guest
Marc

“Peoples vote” pure sentimentalist lefty B/S you and your ilk couldn’t give a rats tit about the “people” why don’t you call it by it’s proper name,the Losers vote.

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

We had a vote on a bunch of warnings and promises, why not have another on the actual negotiated deal or the status quo. We live in a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy.

Captain P Wash
Guest
Captain P Wash

Yes, Why Not . Camoron Misjudged Us and Failed Spectacularly with His Stern Warnings and Cocky Upper Class Arrogance . I hope he Enjoys his Pension and Dinner Speech Royalties. I love the whole Re Moaner Responses, “We Demand another Vote”. Lol. Then We can have another vote, And Another. Heck let’s just Ignore the whole Democratic process and just keep Having Votes until we all get bored. Works for me and the Majority of Voters a Couple of years back but not for you Losers. FFS. Change the Record Mate.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

The key thing about democracy is there is no limit on it, we PATRIOTS (Remoaner is an inaccurate non-term) have every right in a Democracy to call for another Referendum! Especially when the Leave campaign has been shown to be based upon a bunch of lies!

GET USED TO IT!

If we leave the EU on the 29th of March next year, the 30th of March will be DAY ONE of the campaign to Rejoin. You can’t shame or silence us…

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I agree Fedaykin. Once the UK has left. Then it’s only right that the option to rejoin is there.

If the leave vote is not honoured that is wrong.

It can be reversed once we have left and people see actually the roof had not caved in.

Otherwise. Any new vote must also be ignored by leave voters and another held. And another.

And so on.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) – Before DJ removes this Brexit Thread like they did the other one all I will add is that all I ever hear is total negativity and slagging off from Remainers. It gets very personal but thats politics. But we never EVER here of ONE reason why we should have voted to remain in the EU. Even a £9 Mn leaflet from HMG only offered threats, scaremongering and opinions. When HMG tells each of us we will be £4,300 worse off by voting Leave it shows the depths of stupidity offered by the side that thinks this EU… Read more »

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

“DJ removes this Brexit Thread like they did the other one all I will add is that all I ever hear is total negativity and slagging off from Leavers. It gets very personal but that’s politics.” Just corrected your mistake there Chris, as for the rest there was plenty of positive reasons for Remaining in the EU during the referendum campaign unfortunately Leave supporters would invariably say “Why are you talking down the UK, stop with your project fear”. Brexit removes our EU citizenship, reduces our influence, makes us all poorer and turns us into a vassal state begging deals… Read more »

Marc
Guest
Marc

Well said !remainers hate the truth.

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

In terms of sovereignty, we have complete control of defence, foreign policy and monetary policy while being in. Trade wise, it gives us frictionless access to 500m of the world’s wealthiest consumers, with onward trade deals with 60 other countries. It’s also easier to get a good deal working as a market of 500m and 28 states. The commission is appointed by the member states, it answers to the parliament of directly elected representatives and the council of ministers from the member states. Any further integration is agreed by the European council (the head of government of the member states).… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Or you could say we had a vote based on 40 years of experience with the EU, seeing terrorists remain here under ECHR rules, our own elected representatives marginalised, David Cameron ignored, and millions of low skilled economic migrants moving to the UK over decades undercutting wages, putting pressure on public services, along with an ageing population, and in some areas not integrating at all causing social tensions. THAT is what people voted on. That is what I voted on. Mine and others minds were made up long ago Anthony! But we all have our opinions and my respects to… Read more »

barry white
Guest
barry white

Fedaykin
You called yourself a patriot
How can that be when you are willing to be taken over and absorbed by others
Did you hear Trumps speech about being a patriot at the UN today
America first
Thats what being a patriot is dont let others tell you what to do

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Agree Barry. Trump was right.

Captain P Wash
Guest
Captain P Wash

Fedaykin says “We Patriots”. I had to go check the meaning as You confused me for a bit there.

Julian1
Guest
Julian1

Disagree totally with Trump’s view of being a patriot. I live in Trumpland and believe me, it’s vile. The way HE and his base demonstrate their patriotism is ugly, ignorant and intolerant. I hope the UK never goes that way, we moved beyond that 150 yrs ago

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

Was David Cameron’s name mentioned? That triggered my Cameron-Osborne Reaction(the two who started the current cuts in the military services). Osborne, the de facto minister of defense, had a simple program: multiply budget and personnel by 0.8, while Cameron told the service chiefs to shut up and do their jobs.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

excellent k.eep them coming

Alan Reid
Guest
Alan Reid

Hi Barry, The United Kingdom is based on the concept of shared sovereignty – we’ve been doing it successfully for 300 years. I’m surprised so many people on this forum struggle with the concept. It’s been a tenant of British foreign policy to shape Europe in our interests – and we’ve gone to war on many occasions in the past to do so. Fortunately, today, no blood is spilled – and instead we simply engage in tedious argument in the debating chambers of Brussels. Much more preferable! Europe has always been a factor in British politics – and the “European… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Alan when has the European Parliament ever found in favour of a British objection?

We have no influence there apart from money.

Alan Reid
Guest
Alan Reid

Daniele, I know we have an appropriate number of MEPs in the Euro parliament (like Germany & France) – although, as you know, political power is really said to reside in the Council of Ministers. In general terms, I would argue Britain has been successful in pursuing its strategic interests … Single Market, Expansion of EU, UK opt-outs. Plus British business & the education sector have been very adept at exploiting commercial opportunities. For reasons I appreciate, mass migration has caused a lot of concern – and addressing those concerns is unfinished business. But I’m not convinced Brexit is the… Read more »

Alan Reid
Guest
Alan Reid

I should have added the ECHR is not part of the EU – although it is often conflated so in the tabloid press.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

BREXIT? I’M JUST SICK OF THE WORD, I WANT A WORLD WITHOUT THE WORD.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

google naval inactive ships facility, there are so many ships there that we could buy and get good service from the 5 ticondaroga cruisers and a few of the hazard perry frigates would be very welcome. plus they are already built. not eventually will be from the slow moving clyde yards who’s production of ships is slower than the yanks production of f 35’s.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

take it from the £13.1 billion we give away in foreign aid, for no return.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

LOOK WHERE THE AID GOES TO £200 MILLION TO PAKISTAN, A NATION THAT HARBORS TERRORISTS, AND ALLOWS ITS SOIL TO BE USED TO TRAIN THEM. THE SAME AMOUNT TO INDIA, A NATION WITH THE REGIONS MOST BOOMING ECONOMY, WE EVEN GIVE MILLIONS TO NIGERIA, A COUNTRY UNABLE TO TACKLE ITS OWN TERRORISM, JORDAN?SYRIA AND AFGHANISTAN, IS THAT A SORRY WE BOMBED THE CRAP OUT OF YOU PAYMENT??!!! THERE IS MONEY IN THE POT ITS JUST NOT GOING TO THE RIGHT PLACES

fred bloggs
Guest
fred bloggs

This is pure speculation by a so called “quality” newspaper……I believe that at one time this rag believed the Hitler Diaries were genuine……

David Steeper
Guest

The thing we need to fix is the never ending cost overruns. For the last god knows how many years the forces set their budgets on the basis that equipment programmes will come in on budget but they rarely even come close. How can you plan ahead on the assumption that you’ll be spending say £20bn on equipment procurement when you end up actually needing £25 or £30bn. Some make the argument we should be spending more on manpower or something else but until we can have some certainty about what equipment is actually going to cost we’re going to… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

it wouldn’t be so high if the government took off the BAE blinkers

Sol
Guest
Sol

I totally agree. Cancel Brexit, let the economy grow and we’ll finally see the end of austerity.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

and pigs will grow wings……. not.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

I know many will be howls with derision but there is some merit to the idea! Lets be honest the T23 fleet has struggled with manning in recent years and we have more than one harbour queen due to this. As Humphrey sagely pointed out in a Tweet today the issue is “Manning rather than hulls sic…” Whilst recruitment taps have been turned back on it will take time to work through and working up CVF is going to be a heavy draw on people resources for the next few years. HMS Argyll and HMS Lancaster are both relatively close… Read more »

John
Guest

I agree with your thoughts Fedaykin. My concern is that they don’t stick to the minimum agreed t26 and t31 ships in the future. I think if there was some sort of cast iron commitment (which I very much doubt happening) to building the 8 T26’s and 5 (I’m hoping 6) T31’s, then it seems like a relatively painless solution if they retire 2 T23’s early. We got away with it for the old carriers, chances are we’ll get away with it again, although I’d rather we didn’t keep gambling in this manner as our luck is bound to run… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

i’m not convinced the t31 will ever happen the whole process has been a clusterf**k

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I would not mind them flogging of a couple of hulls, if they have a clear plan on bringing manning back up to levels that will support in a sustainable way 8 T26s and 5 T31s. Concern would be they use it as a justification to perminatly reduce escort numbers.

A few 10s of million for clapped out hulls and the saves on not refitting them would be useful.

Carlos Paez S
Guest
Carlos Paez S

sell hms argyll and hms lancaster to us (chile) will be the best posible deal (i hope at least another too, we need 3 frigates), we can upgrade them to our new standar t23 equipment (cms330 trs 4d radar, camm, tass 2087), that money go to RN in hulls and refits, and put that ships in the hands of a historical allied navy operating T23 already (and protecting an important part of the world for RN and NATO). chilean navy is the most powerfull navy in south america and the only one operating full compatibily NATO equipment), we are also… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

retire a t23 as another ship enters service should be the target;further reductions in numbers is too poor to even think about.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

i’ve never understood why training establishments don’t all pass out on the same day, a particular ship, most in need should be identified in advance
and then it can receive a mass draft of crew from all the training establishments
then it could become operational sooner, rather than wait again for crews

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

born in carlisle, made in the royal navy, if that’s the best recruitment effort we can make forget getting more sailors.

Kartikeya Semwal
Guest

Instead of axing them, the British govt. should offer them to some Asian Countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Myanmar, even India.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

or more so commonwealth nations like canada or new zealand. but ‘d certainly go with ore sailors from abroad like we do with the gurkhas

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

i’d offer them to australia and new zealand.look after our own.

dave12
Guest
dave12

If the two type 23s are axed I can guarantee the Prince of wales carrier will be sold on.Its just crazy!!!

sjb1968
Guest
sjb1968

Dave selling off POW is not an easy option for politicians. Lots of taxpayers money spent and wasted. Scrap T23s and use crew saved to ensure carriers (which need a bigger crew) are both manned and possibly both LPDs. Forget any military logic this is all do with keeping the political wheels on.

dave12
Guest
dave12

My point being if this cut happens we are going to have not enough escorts for two carriers .

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the navy is like the prison service, not enough boots too much hassle.

Ross
Guest
Ross

Yeah I’m starting to think the same. There really is only one direction the defence budget is heading in without us going to war. I remember Francis Tusa saying a while back about how overstretched the equipment budget is. I wonder how far selling PoW and making a much reduced F35 buy FAA only would go to covering the shortfall. I know the RAF would be pi**ed, but hey ho. There is absolutely zero chance that the treasury are going to bridge the gap to the extent required. Read a few people on here before saying there would be a… Read more »

fearlesstunafish
Guest
fearlesstunafish

unfortunately i share your final statement :/ especially the way everyone acts live giving the people the vote in a referendum is the answer… correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t that why we vote for a government in the first place?? to make decisions over affairs that affect our country in ways that, lets be honest here, most people have no idea about…. these days it all seems about either party, or personal political career….. wasn’t being a politician supposed to be a public service for the good of the whole country?!? wtf happened to that?!? and then they… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

too many politicians, shut some constituencies, we’d see a change, when the m.p gravy train, comes off the rails.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

we’ve always had that. it would just be same as now, but with different faces to take the blame for it

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the french need to replace the de gaulle, so selling p.o.w makes sense

Captain P Wash
Guest
Captain P Wash

only for @ £10 Billion though. Otherwise we May as well keep her for 50 Years and Sell her to Brazil after a £2 Billion Refit.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

and use the money for a couple more t45’s

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

especially with a mistral to fill the hole left by ocean.

expat
Guest
expat

The obvious answer would be to co fund assets from the foreign aid. Seem the government want the MoD to be efficient but not willing to look a bigger efficiencies across departments. Look at the requirements for any new ship for the RN , must be able to stow x or support x number of crew for humanitarian duties. So the requirements are there so why not the funding.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

for the gov to slash foreign aid, would give comrade corbyn another chance to reinforce his left wing loonie politics. just put right what we have, swallow our pride and buy the odd second hand ship like EVERYONE ELSE DOES. maybe the type 22’s still use by brazil x2 romania x2 chile x2 the pakistan navy are retiring the last type 21’s i the u.k got them dry docked inspected, and maybe get 5 valuable years from some of them.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

sell it to the french for money, and a mistral in exchange, giving us money and a ready replacement for ocean.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the ocean issue won’t go away, i suggested a return to the old methoud of building carriers from adapted merchant ships, maybe removing the superstructure from a bay class and fitting a deck could cover its loss.

Lee H
Guest
Lee H

Afternoon all So it begins, the first “leaks” from those within the service(s) with regards to what MDP really means to the front line equipments that are utilised by the men and women we send to fight. I don’t think it was ever a secret that the RN couldn’t man all 19 escorts so this news, whilst disappointing will. It be unexpected. 2xGD T23’s will be removed from the fleet but actual deployable assets, those declared as operational to the fleet will not change. What it does do however is release manpower to the fleet allowing potentially more crews to… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

born in carlisle, made in the royal navy, if thats the best insentive there is to join, then it shows why we’ve no sailors

GWM
Guest
GWM

As there are 2 ships laid up due to manning short falls it makes no real difference to the current status,no doubt Chili will buy them to go with the 3 they have all ready as they are due to scrap 2 old Dutch ships.Better than getting rid of a whole capability with the LPD’s,where are all the defence supporting torie MP’s supposedly threatening a rebellion?

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

as for the type 31 why not a batch 2 strengthened type 21? small, upgradeable, flexible, lean crewing, popular. and bloody good ships, which could be built far faster than the t 26.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

It is still all speculation.

However. If it does happen it is better than cutting one of the 4 main pillars of the RN.
Which in my opinion are:

Carriers and aviation.
SSN.
Amphibious ships and RM.
The RFA.

With these we have global reach. The attendant escorts and MCMV are the dressing!

Ross
Guest
Ross

Interesting…I think I’d put Trident on its own at the top of any list, but after that, the whole of the RN really is just essential. In many cases, different assets are not just complementary, but fully dependent on the others (e.g. various layers of ASW or the multitude of components that together form carrier strike). If the equipment budget is as over-stretched as is suggested, we are getting towards a stage not just where the force is going to get *even thinner* re. numbers, but where we’re going have to start cutting capabilities outright, as is (was?) the case… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Ross of course other parts are vital. I’m not making a case for not having them just key capabilities which IMO enable the UK to power project.

Trident I did not list. That is a political decision which should not be a weight around the Mods neck. I support Trident by the way.

Lee H
Guest
Lee H

Evening Danielle

I suspect the wheels are already in motion, this is just another opportunity for Luke Pollard to sound off again without quite understanding what is going on.

The drip feeding is beginning though, this is just the start.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Evening Lee. Hope you’re well.

Let’s see. The defence Secretary I have supported so far. I hope he keeps the pressure on.

I wonder when the RAF and Army leaks will appear.

The Army already has the carrot ready in a Boxer order pending.

Lee H
Guest
Lee H

Hi Daniele Doing good thanks, hope you are well also. They will start come through over the next couple of weeks. Can the Army sustain 227 CR2 when most of them are “stored”? Can the Army sustain the Bulldog fleet when it is no longer used? Is AS90 still relevant against an adversary that can outgun and outmanoeuvre it? Can the Army recover its headcount after the Capita disaster? The RAF are already going about rationalising their fleets. Tornado is on its way out. Sentinel hasn’t got long left. E-3 needs replacing. Merlin has gone to the RN A cut… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

With just 2 regiments of Tanks left 227 CH2 is an easy cut to make. Bulldog is still used by the Armoured Medical Regiments and a few assorted others. Will be replaced by Boxer I guess. The HPM Battalions now use Mastiff. AS90 is all we have in the Armoured brigades. Better than nothing. Once 6 regiments down to 2. Scandalous. Cut in every review in recent times. I’d be speechless if they cut it again. Chinook always escaped cuts. It’s so useful and in demand. A cut here would be hard to take considering we lost the Harrier fleet… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

£1.4 billion for 1 astute, when the best conventional submarine the gotland class google small swedish submarine sinks u.s carrier costs just 100 million, one astute or 14 conventionals to join our paltry submarine fleet

Captain P Wash
Guest
Captain P Wash

I just googled that and It appears that the USN still have all their Carriers .

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

But can the Gotland class self deploy aroubd the world for months on end and carry our sea denial in the oceans leaving opposing navies at risk?

SSNs are strategic and used by major powers.

We’d need an uplift in personnel for starters.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

ssn’s are dead money, 1.4 billion each when, for the same money you could buy/build 14 conventional gotland typessk boats quantity or quality? we can’t have both can we?

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the old chestnut of merging the fleet air arm with the R.A.F AND THE MARINES WITH THE PARAS the traditionalists would go ballistic but the air arm and raf makes sense. it might stop much of the squabbling between them for resources that aren’t there anyway its not well known buuth raf had a big role in the ocean fiasco, they complained that too many of their aircrew were needed elsewhere and not on a ship.

David
Guest
David

If true – and aside from legitimate concern at home – what message is this sending to Uncle Sam? In future conflicts, why should the US Tax Payer help when we CHOOSE to cut our Armed Forces still further – AGAINST the request of Uncle Sam???

Then we may find ourselves on our own with not a whole lot…..

Scary times ahead…..

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

stuff uncle sam, all he wants is money from us.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Does he?

Last time I looked POTUS wants to do a free trade deal with the UK. Something our beloved European allies in the EU strangely don’t seem so keen on.

Also if we stuff uncle Sam there goes 5 Eyes so it’s really not a good idea!

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

yes the u.s have a lot staked on the numbers of f 35’s the u.k actually buys. boeing are up against it they’ve already admitted that a shortfall of 40 odd f 35 produced is shattering their share prices.

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

Not so. The US military respect the UK military and it expertise, and want them as allies. Agree with Daniele.

Lee H
Guest
Lee H

Good evening the Kremlin
This is London calling
Good to see the humour is still there TH

I am sure you will have much to comment on in the next few weeks – we look forward to your balanced arguments and occasional temper

?

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) – I doubt Sturgeon could afford an extra OPV judging by how she runs Scotland now and that is with overly generous deficit cover and Barnett Formula.

But I am sure TH has all the answers for us ..

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

rebuild hadrians wall, close rosyth.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Lol! Andy is in fine form. ?

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Fine the Antonine wall will do….

sjb1968
Guest
sjb1968

Get Donald into build the wall.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

“rebuild hadrians wall, close rosyth”

We thank you for your gift of large parts of Northern England, and I’m sure Babcock will be delighted if their land and facilities are nationalised and gifted to the Scottish Government as a national waterpark.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Sturgeon isn’t a multimillionaire so I doubt if she’d be able personally to buy an OPV, but Scotland is fabulously wealthy specially with new gas finds and the oil price over 80 dollars, and could afford at least 2/3rd Denmark’s current fleet, Denmark having 5.7 million population compared to Scotland at 5.4 million, but roughly a 25% higher GDP, but also a defence spending of considerably less as a percentage of GDP – 1.2%, compared to the likely 1.6% to 1.8% for Scotland as a front-line GIS gap, Arctic and Baltic Sea State. That makes 4 frigates somewhere between a… Read more »

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Oh, plus if whatever Independent Scotland’s future Government is politically made up of decided to make it 2% of GDP to be ready for NATO’s 2024 deadline, 4 AIPs over an 8 to 10 year period at roughly £200 to £250 million each from a company in England who’d probably be delighted to get such an order. Built on the Clyde or Rosyth of course.

Branaboy
Guest
Branaboy

Hbeaere is an idea to solve the manning problems of the British Armed Forces. With the UK leaving the EU and looking to reset ties with the old Commonwealth states that includes the old colonies in Africa, Americas and Asia, I suggest the UK look to recruit personnel in these Commonwealth member countries. Note that there is a major unemployment problem in many of these countries with millions of University Graduates unable to find work, thus the mass illegal migrations into Europe. Now the UK already recruits soldiers from Nepal, I suggest that the other branches especially the Royal Navy… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

The UK, a country that gives billions in aid, supports televised charities with millions more, and is tolerant to the point people have become so fed up with mass migration and want a reduction and sensible controls. Xenophobic and insular? Nope. It’s like having a lodger in your spare room. It’s no problem. Then the lodger invites his mates. And their mates. And your home is full. Nothing xenophobic about it just common sense and millions have had enough of the EU and free movement. As for your other points yes why not? British Army have plenty of Commonwealth soldiers… Read more »

julian1
Guest
julian1

better still….lets start ‘selective’ conscription again. we have the manpower…not all working. quality? probably not that great in the most part but likely to be some gems in there. I’m guessing we’re probably about 5-10k down with current planned manning levels so we could still be quite selective. why the hell not?

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I have often wondered about some form of national service again.

I wouldn’t want the quality of the regulars eroded.

How would we “select” though? A d from what pool? Would certain be exempt?

Julian1
Guest
Julian1

I would somehow tie it into DWP/job centre activity. I really mean “strong encouragement” rather than try conscription.

Alternatively wait outside football grounds on a weekend and bundle fans into vans!

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

good idea, be careful who you tell though

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

The RN actively recruits from the commonwealth. There was a promo vid from QE recently showing the commonwealth RN personal on board.
However, and there always is a however, the jobs they can do are limited to stokers and Loggies and a few other sub branches.
They cannot do Weapons engineering or ops room due to the UK eyes only classifications or 5 eyes classifications.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

New Zealanders and Aussies would be 5 eyes cleared I presume being members. I suppose they take more of our people than we take theirs.

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

From the amount of Facebook messages I get from former shipmates who are now living in Aus your not wrong! However a number a data feed are UK/US Eyes only ( Gold feed detailing world wide vessel location ) so that is also an issue. When this issue came to light I was serving with a CPO Sonar (Passive ) who had security clearance up the ying/yang…however he was born in the Republic of Ireland and held a Eire passport even though he had lived in the uk since 6 months old . He was granted UK nationality in a… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

good idea. have you written the defence secretary via your local m.p. with this idea?i write regularly the M.O.D and i do get replies……. eventually

antidote
Guest
antidote

How the hell have we got to this point?

It’ll be a sad sad day if this goes ahead.

It makes me ashamed for those in power. What planet are they living on?

Spyinthesky
Guest
Spyinthesky

Perhaps they can get Warrior back into the water to provide escort duties for the Russian warships transiting the Channel. That should put the fear of God into them.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Maybe we should scrap our armed forces and just insist that NATO and the rest of Europe keeps us safe……seems to work for some others.

Steve
Guest
Steve

I don’t get the link to Brexit. The defence cuts were on the cards even before the vote and certainly before the negotiations got anywhere. This is all linked to the mistake of ordering the carrier’s, they are expensive glamour items we just can’t afford, in cost or man power and so cuts had to follow. The whole OPV mess didn’t help, as they have tied up even more sailors, on ships that arent war fighters. Please mothball the 2 frigates and don’t sell them off for peanuts. At least mothballed ships can be reactivated if the need calls.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I think it’s more to do with the deterrent bought into core budget not the Carriers myself.

Steve
Guest
Steve

It’s a combination of many things. The deterenece is clearly a defence cost and should be in the budget, but equally pensions shouldnt be. Then there is the stupid inflated prices for everything, due to dithering over decisions causing delays and of course the top heavy structure of the services and constant decisions to join questionable wars. Brexit itself I suspect will have a minor impact but probably be used as an excuse by many.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Yes I would go along with most of that Steve.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

while we wait for the t26 buy back the three t23’s chile had? they’ve all had life extension refits and might be of some use

T.S
Guest

Fuck, I was so optimistic that things were changing for the better, but it now is apparent Williamson has lost. Cuts cuts and more cuts to come. 2nd tier military status coming. The gradual decline of our nation and its standing in the world is reaching the point of no return. If it weren’t for all this Brexit shit we might have stood a chance. We voted to leave whilst EU are in the doldrums, since then EU growth is healthy, us stagnant. The upcoming reality will be: Carrier strike with few f35s and severe lack of protection. Scrapping of… Read more »

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

Jesus, what more will they cut? This is depressing. Cut the damn overseas aid budget. And reduce Parliament to 400 MPs, cut their staff by 50%.

T.S
Guest

Let’s just fuck everything off. Just keep the reserve army, light armour only, opvs and a few frigates In uk waters only, one squadron of typhoon to defend northern airspace.
Sell all amphib, blue water, etc. Fuck it all off and go cap In handle to the French when some one starts on us.
If you do something you do it properly or not at all. Save the money. Let’s make the Irish armed forces look big. Spend the cash on bumping up the foreign aid budget and give it to Pakistan.

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

I am going to go counter intuitive on this everyone. I dont believe Gavin Williamson has “lost” as this is not a game. Defence is about strategy and as long as we end up where we need to be – so be it. Everyone is right – governments have a terrible record of sticking to their defence commitments. But… A huotfeldt class T31 is a very capable vessel even with FFBNW and from a defence point of view this may be acceptable. But… During th Falklands – MT had to sweet talk RR into supplying us with munitions otherwise we… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Guest
Nigel Collins

Do we really need to be concerned about the threats posed by Russia or China when we have the Conservative and Labour parties doing far more damage to our military’s capabilities? Why not increase the foreign aid budget and give some to them as well, I’m sure JC would be very happy to do so.

Chris ex- SAAF
Guest
Chris ex- SAAF

Gents and Ladies l reside in the “colonies” & am not offay with the UK defensive budget process. Why is the foreign aid budget within the defence budget? I don’t understand the correlation or association? Is there an appetite for scrapping the Nuclear SSBN capability? The capex saving on replacement SSBN boats must be substantial. This would afford an expansion of RN escort hulls (type 31 anyone?) Closing Faslane may also save a few bob. On the second carrier (PoW), would there be value in an a refit to a commando carrier (like HMS Hermes in the Falklands). The yank… Read more »

Col watts
Guest
Col watts

Come over to Australia. At least they are building a bigger and better navy. Don’t panic I’m sure the Australian navy can help out when you need it

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

It’s right to keep up pressure on defence budgets not being cut, but at the same time the important game in town apart from the amphibs and their replacements, is the two carriers and their escorts, which is from a compact but adequate pool of 8 Type 26, corresponding to 8 Type 23. So in theory 5 T23s are redundant in the short term, as long as they’re replaced by suitably kitted but relatively way cheaper, Type 31s in short order – for no nett loss of overall numbers. Add to that all 7 Astutes, which are not just submarines,… Read more »

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

Add to that an INCREASED budget including base / port infrastructure, to speed up maintenance, resupplying, repair, refit and upgrade, and training and working up, and increase spares stocks. The RN really needs to move away from its incredibly old school and out of date, rule of 3 to get 1. In fact it needs to be way less than 2 to 1, and actually achieve more coverage, not less, with less hulls in total.

In manufacturing it’s called “lean”.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Agree dad’s. This is all still speculation.

We can only man 17 Escorts at present.

The danger is after when HMG pretend 17 is now the target number.

They’ve pulled that trick before.

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

Remote basing with rotating crews in BHR will do something to help this . Although my understanding was that one of the T23 named was the one coming to the Mid East.

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

It was you posting about Bahrain was a big factor in me thinking that through. £40 million for the base, not even half the cost of an OPV, yet properly done, able to keep frigates, destroyers at sea having worked up with maybe a relatively minor problem without them having to limp back to the UK.

Seems to me the MOD / RN do have a grip of economic strategy.

T.S
Guest

Christ what was I writing last night!? Sorry, one to many ales. Talk about over reacting

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

🙂

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Thank God for that!

You clearly get as depressed as me but you’d really lost it. I didn’t agree with most if your list.

Rob
Guest
Rob

If there was a ‘like’ feature on this site your posts from last night would have broken it 🙂

Ron
Guest
Ron

As much as I would like to throttle someone in the Treasury I wonder if something else is going on. The Type 31 if everything is to be believed should have the first vessel operational by 2023, which means launched in 2021, equipped and tested by 2022. As I also understand it much of the combat outfit is to be supplied by HM Government. So I wonder if with the issues of manning and some budgetary constraints that the MOD have decided to take two of what I hope are the GP T23s out of service to strip them down… Read more »

rec
Guest
rec

Personally I think Trident should be cut and that gives the freedom to:
Increase in the number of Astutes to 10 and buikd 7SSKs.
Increase the number of T26s to 10 and T31 to 8.
Order 30 new Merlin HM2 and 30 Ospreys for the RN.( tanker and commando use(
Reduce F35B to 70 RN only.

70 F35A for RAF these woukd carry the mininsl nuclear deterrent.
48 additional Typhhons for RAF reopen Leeming for RAF and leuchars for RN
5 additional P8
Have a ballustic missile defence ststem for the UK.
Replace CH2s with leopards.
Trident is political but so is everything in defence.

T.S
Guest

You know what, I’m starting to think down this line too. Haven’t completely made my mind up but the extra money could totally transform our conventional military.
I don’t agree with replacing C2’s with leopards though. Just deactivate what we have in storage and upgrade. Spend the money on more boxers and Ajax but give them some real hitting power that is sorely needed.
Invest in a small long range nuclear capable bomber force and really invest in Tempest.

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

Rec, TS…agree about trident. It’s a risk going from a platinum deterrent to a silver or bronze but the conventional force structure is so threadbare I think the balance of risk is shifting. A deterrent doesn’t have to be overwhelming to deter, it just needs to be credible. Scrap dreadnought, buy another five astute, put a b61 warhead on a cruise missile. Stick email on all our escorts and let the carrier routinely carry b61 for f35. I don’t know if technically possible but in terms of strategy, I’d prefer credible conventional forces with some nuclear strike capability, in the… Read more »

Ron
Guest
Ron

@rec, this is something that I have been arguing for for some time. Either place the SSBN budget back into the treasury/state budget to scrap the SSBN force all together. Yes its nice to have but with our conventional forces so thin on the ground can we really afford it? I do agree with you mix of conventional forces but I would have one addition, three HMAS Canberra type assault ships each with an reinforced armoured battle-group as replacements for HMS Albion and Bulwark. The F35Bs would have to be increased to 90-100 as the two carriers and servicing requirements… Read more »

Paul T
Guest
Paul T

rec- another vote for not replacing Vanguard with Dreadnought from me too,but obviously the Elephant in the Room is would our Government of any colour spend the money saved on more conventional forces – think everyone on here knows the answer to that question.Ive always thought that Trident is a Weapons System that we cannot afford to have,but as a Political weapon its one that we cannot afford to be without.As a sidenote I would probably go for replacing C2 with M1 or go Japanese Type 10 rather than go L2.

antidote
Guest
antidote

Err, NO!

Our nuclear deterrent is our greatest strength. If anything it needs expanding to become a traid. And the budget for it should be placed back where it used to be and not eating up resources for our conventional forces.

antidote
Guest
antidote

triad

Ron
Guest
Ron

@antidote, I agree if the defence budget can be 2.5% GDP and the nuclear deterrent cost placed back in the budget of the treasury then go for it. I also agree that the SSBN fleet is the most potential weapon that the UK government has. The question is can we afford it or possibly can we not afford it? If we look at the needs of the British armed forces then we all agree that they are completely undermanned and under-equipped for the tasks that that governments get them involved in. With a high operational rota people want to leave… Read more »

antidote
Guest
antidote

Thanks for the indepth reply. With my limited knowledge, I would have to agree with much of what you say. If a much cheaper nuclear deterrent could be developed then great. But it doesn’t seem anyone in the UK is seriously considering it. Maybe 3 instead of 4 Dreadnought subs? Or would that be unworkable? I presume it is. Perceptions in warfare and defence count, and willfully downsizing our nuclear deterrent would be viewed as great weakness and stupidity by our foes. To keep the deterrent as it is, we need to produce many more small, but well armed craft,… Read more »

Ron
Guest
Ron

@antidote, no problems ; the idea of three instead of four subs again could work but it would probably just increase the cost and possibly mean that for a period of time no SSBN is at sea. As for down sizing the nuclear deterrent, yes a cruise missile is smaller than an ICBM but it is more flexible.By the way the bomb on Hiroshima was approx 16kt a w80 as I mentioned can be 150 kt, it is still a big ouch. I also agree that perceptions count in peace time however in times of war what counts is the… Read more »

Matt H
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Matt H

The root cause for this possible cut – and actual previous ones over many years – has been the Tory party’s fixation on spending cuts. Time and time again, the Tory party has slashed spending on defense while claiming to be the party that can be relied upon for a strong defense.
The British people do not vote for defense spending, it’s really that simple. They care more for NHS services, education and services that impact their daily lives.

Captain P Wash
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Captain P Wash

What a Brilliant Site This Is, Rant’s and all !!!!

The Snowman
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The Snowman

I wonder if HMS Tyne (Batch 1 River) will remain in service when HMS Forth (Batch 2 River) is back fixed by BAE? Use the River1 for UK waters, and send the R2 out to cover one of the patrol stations vacated by a GP T23? Would save 133 crew according to wikipaedia (58 vs 185).

Paul.P
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Paul.P

Way to go I would say.

PaulSergeant
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PaulSergeant

The RN, from what I read here and elsewhere, does not have the crews to operate all ships. Decommissioning 2 frigates will not save much. Announcing that a frigate has been saved (1 gone) will get good press for MoD. Even better, another T 31e to replace the retired frigate will get plaudits. What will not be said is 1 more T 31e means 1 less T 26 – that is the saving.

Wads
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Wads

We always have to bear in mind that the MoD will benchmark the RN against the French. They have one CVF, 3 LHD, 4 SSBN, 6 SSN, 4 AAW Destroyer/Frigates, 6 ASW Frigates, 5 planned FTI light Frigates replacing 5 La Fayettes and so on. Look familiar?

Anthony D
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Anthony D

Not really wads…

Benchmark against the french, don’t me laugh.

PaulSergeant
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PaulSergeant

Looks a bit short compared to RN.

Wads
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Wads

That’s the point…it’s where we are headed. The Sir Humphreys will say the French only need 6 ASW why do you need 8? Not that I agree with it.

Victor
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Victor

Chile requires at least two frigates to replace its Jacob van Heemskerck Class. It seems to be the most obvious destination.

Meirion X
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Meirion X

Cancel Dreadnought, priced at £8 billion per sub. and replace with new build ‘stretched Astute’ with missile compartment, equipped with new missile, maybe C4. Should be less then £2 billion per sub. Only USA needs trident because of Far East as well as Atlantic.

Julian
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Julian

Such a vessel could also form the basis of the next-generation SSN fleet with the Common Missile Compartment used in TLAM mode to host at least 24 TLAM per CMC cell, and in fact I think that might be 7 per tube so actually 28 per cell without using any storage in the torpedo room. That seems such an attractive solution that I wonder why it’s not been done. There are lots of smart people with access to costings on every nut and bolt and what is proposed here would actually save money and reduce risk plus Dreadnought has been… Read more »

Steve M
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Steve M

How much of this have we already spent though? It may well be too late anyway.

Julian
Guest
Julian

Definitely too late. My comment was more retrospective musing on “why didn’t we?” rather than a “why don’t we?” suggestion. For next-gen SSN though I do hope they will use a CMC module to give dedicated TLAM facilities. There was also mention in the design phase of CMC to include the possibility of a tube hosting special forces equipment (e.g. minisubs) which would give even more flexibility. Perhaps the practical option to hope for is, a decade or three down the line, the reverse of what Merion X suggested. Rather than Dreadnought becoming a stretched Astute, perhaps the next class… Read more »

Steve M
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Steve M

Ahh fair one. It’s all definitely extremely interesting to read, I have learnt a lot on this site.

Frank62
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Frank62

The UK cannot afford any further reductions in the escort fleet- Indeed the RN is already dangerously(I would say recklessly) overstreched & under resourced. For a change would it not be better to do something constructive about the RNs manpower problems, like recruiting more engineers & paying staff better to retain those we have? I wonder how many long suffering RN chaps will be pushed over the edge & leave the service at this latest madness. Let’s hope it never comes to that.

Peter french
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Peter french

What happened to our”growing Navy” , the usual hogwash, As to the statement that the three ministers work together is the usual FlimFlam which says nothing other than the report is true

Gunbuster
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Gunbuster

It is growing…a T26 will be nearly twice the tonnage of a T23…

Its all in the statistics and how the politicians decide to spin them

Bill
Guest
Bill

Let’s face it, the RN will continue to diminish in size and stature whilst maintaining 2 ridiculous aircraft carriers to the detriement of the fleet as a whole. The politicians don’t give a toss starting back with Cameron and Osborne.
We’re done here and brexit will no doubt seal our relagation to League 1. RN RIP.

Darren
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Darren

You have been manipulated

Mr Bell
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Mr Bell

Bill the QE carriers are not ridiculous. They are superb ships. The ridiculous issue is the absolute stupidity and sheer folly of our leadership. We will be reducing our desperately needed warship numbers further at a time when all our potential peer, near peer and enemies are proliferating their warships and submarine construction. I would not mind type 23s being scrapped if they were going to be imminently replaced, but they are not. 5+, years until their replacement. If this goes ahead we really are buggered as a nation and can forget all pretence of being a decent major power… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Let’s not forget the headline only states at least two Type 23s could be cut from the RN – what cuts are also planned for the RAF & Army? The sum of all three is the REAL worry!

May’s recent request for Williamson to provide a definition of a ‘Tier 1’ military, shows she is utterly clueless and as for Corbyn??…… he’d make May look like a Saint!

I suppose we will have wait a few months but on the face of it, I agree with the sentiment here that the worst is still to come….

Depressing….

Anthony D
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Anthony D

This tier business is nonsense. We aren’t anywhere near the yanks, so if we’re talking tiers then we haven’t been tier one since the second world war. Could we win a land, sea or air war with China….nope… we’d be severly out numbered in all three domains. So we can’t be tier two either. Tiers are far too simplistic and take no account of coalitions, geography or economic power.

Lee H
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Lee H

Morning all 165 comments about the potential cut of 2 legacy frigates we can neither fully maintain or man. Let’s see what happens next week at conference. For the first time in an age the Labour Party are selling a utopian vision (fictional and unworkable) that is now setting the agenda putting the government on the back foot. Bold ideas, that don’t have the word Brexit in it will have to come to the fore or else the party is dead. Fraser Nelson has written a good article in the telegraph this morning. Let’s see if the SecDef can pull… Read more »

jon agar
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jon agar

You are all missing the point No one is joining the RN so there is a Manpower shortage no point in building 20 ships if we cannot man half of them. its why they are building automated ships. so you have to solve the manpower before buying them.

Anthony D
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Anthony D

Lee it’s got nothing to do with belief, what we’re asking for is not possible. It would mean the if the EU. Why can’t you see why EU members won’t give that?

It’s not a conspiracy, we can’t leave and have the benefits of staying. At least the moggites see that. The only compromise available that doesn’t undermine the good Friday agreement is the Norway option but that undermines the referendum result. Catch 22.