BAE Systems has signed a five-year contract to support its ARTISAN Radar on the Brazilian Navy’s flagship, the NAM Atlântico and former HMS Ocean.

The firm say that the new contract will provide through-life support for both the BAE Systems ARTISAN Radar and associated DNA2 Combat Management System (CMS) fitted to the NAM Atlântico, delivering class-leading operational availability to the flagship.

“The ARTISAN Radar aspect of the contract will deliver corrective and preventative maintenance including the provision of spare parts, which will be manufactured by BAE Systems in the UK and held in Brazil. It will also provide a help-desk facility, which will be operated remotely from the UK to assist the team in Brazil. A skills and knowledge transfer agreement will see the BAE Systems radar team provide hands-on training to the Brazilian Navy as part of regular, planned engineering visits to the Arsenal de Marinha do Rio de Janeiro in Guanabara Bay, near Rio de Janeiro.”

Admiral Cunha, Marinha do Brasil said in a news release:

“The signing of this contract represents a relevant step towards ensuring full availability of the combat system and ARTISAN radar on board NAM Atlântico. It is an important commitment assumed by BAE Systems with the Brazilian Navy not only in the maintenance of the operational capability of our flagship, but also in the transfer of knowledge to our personnel.”

Laurie Ellis, Head of Radar, BAE Systems Maritime Services, said:

“We’re delighted to have signed this support service contract with the Brazilian Navy. Our teams of engineers are looking forward to working with and providing support for the ARTISAN Radar and DNA2 Combat Management System to enable NAM Atlântico to continue its vital role as flagship.”

Brazil became an operator of the radar with the purchase of LPH HMS Ocean from the United Kingdom in 2018. BAE add that the DNA2 element of the contract will also deliver a planned modernisation package of the ship’s CMS in order to address obsolescence.

George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. He also works for the NHS. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Paul42
Paul42
15 days ago

Ocean is still going strong in her new role, just like all the other warships we’ve sold abroad because they were ‘too old’ for the RN! Meantime we have to make do with RFA Argus to act in the role of an LPH as such – you really couldn’t make it up…..

Last edited 15 days ago by Paul42
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
15 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

I cannot make sense of the Argus decision.

Sounds like a floating nightmare to me.

AlexS
AlexS
15 days ago

We don’t have all information to judge.

There are some old ships that are quite useful for their polyvalence that we sometimes see long lives in the navies.
Argus is not some weird steam propulsion ship, it has diesels and a simplified hull.

My explanation is that Ocean could not give same polyvalence and was probably more expensive.

Last edited 15 days ago by AlexS
Deep32
Deep32
15 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

See @DMJ post below ref crew size.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

I agree. Ocean went as a sop to ‘Cuts’ Cameron to bring PoW into service. That was the choice. PoW is massively more useful as a modern sister to QEC than a singleton Ocean would have been. Argus was a political hot potatoe as it is the closest thing the Uk has to a Hospital ship and with Cameron’s aid commitments cutting that wasn’t an acceptable look. Everything else came in useful numbers such as Albions and Bays. It is a real shame, as the ex 1SL remarked, that the aircraft carrier alliance didn’t go on to build two Ocean… Read more »

Martin
Martin
14 days ago

It was the right call on the RN part to keep POW, much more useful than Ocean. With the new MRSS the helicopter facilities will be spread over the entire amphibious fleet rather than gathered in one ship. I see this as a better solution especially if one for the CVF can provide more in-depth maintenance facilities for an embarked task force. Better to have 6 MRSS than 1 LPH 2 LPD 3 LSD + Argus.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
14 days ago

Would HMS Ocean ordinarily have been in a carrier group? Did that happen often? Surely she would have led her own ‘carrier group’?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

One thing Ocean was, was slow!

If you are putting together a task force speed is determined by the slowest element?

Ocean would have needed F35 protection for a vaguely contested landing with an Albion and a couple of Bays.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
14 days ago

HMS Ocean was 18kts – surely RFAs were that sort of speed?
Could not Apache provide the protection you describe as required?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

18kts was pushing it for Ocean. I recall she was single screw.

I think 15kts was more like it. I’m sure some who served on her will put us straight!

Apache can provide some cover: for sure. But in an ideal world top cover from F35B and ground sanitisation from Apache would clear out Orcs rather well. Helicopters are vulnerable without top cover and the ISTAR functionality of F35B would keep people safer on the ground.

Propellerman
Propellerman
14 days ago

16 knots downhill and with the wipers on flat out – made it feel a bit faster

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  Propellerman

Now I see the problem: the go-faster stripes were missing 🙂

AlexS
AlexS
14 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Would HMS Ocean ordinarily have been in a carrier group? Did that happen often? Surely she would have led her own ‘carrier group’?

No. HMS Ocean only has 18kt speed, same as RFA Argus…

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
14 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

That 18kt speed of HMS Ocean would not have been a problem if RFA Argus or similar slow vessel was also in its group, or MCMVs (they are slow?).

AlexS
AlexS
14 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yes MCM are slow.
Regardless you make another task force for 18Kt ships you do not make them part of carrier force except temporarely for some specific reason.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
11 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

My point was that a LPH (at 18kts or hopefully better) could command an amphibious task force/group. It would not be a part of a carrier force – that would operate seperately.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
14 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

The RN had an Amphibious Group, names changed several times over the years. ARG, RFTG, and so on.

Steve
Steve
14 days ago

I would guess it’s economics. The government announced a capability without giving appropriate funds for it, so the navy looked at their options and argus was the cheapest one.

We have no other operational platforms that have a hanger, that could be converted and ocean was sold off well before the announcement of the new capability

Martin
Martin
14 days ago
Reply to  Steve

Ocean was RN and Argus RFA. RFA vessels cost much less to operate and they needed to kill an RN vessel to free up RN crew for POW. In the end POW is an amazing LPH. She can carry almost the half the fleet of British army helicopters at a push in one go.

John N
John N
15 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

Don’t forget the ship that was ‘too young’, she was only in commission for less than five years.

RFA Largs Bay (HMAS Choules), was a bit of a bargain for us Aussies, only £65m (A$100m).

Thanks Pommies!

Cheers,

David Steeper
David Steeper
15 days ago
Reply to  John N

Thanks for fielding your womens team against us in the rugby.
Cheers

John N
John N
14 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

No problem David.

By the way, I can’t stand Rugby Union, it’s not the game it was (I last played it 40+ years ago).

Much prefer watching Rugby League!

Cheers,

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
14 days ago
Reply to  John N

Rugby League –Played that in school many years ago ( No RU up north!) and followed and supported the Wires throughout the late 70s and 80s.
Best description I heard about RL— Formation Mugging!

Ian
Ian
14 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

I doubt that those old ships would be ‘going strong’ for long if they actually went into combat.

JohnM
JohnM
15 days ago

Nice pic. Glad the Brazilian Navy is making good use of Ocean.

Paul42
Paul42
15 days ago
Reply to  JohnM

Yes they are, just as we should have been….

Lee H
Lee H
15 days ago

Short term operational decisions now showing the UK MoD in a poor light.
HMS Ocean wasn’t perfect but compared to RFA Argus (providing sterling service) she was, and continues to be, great value for money and is delivering for the Brazilian Navy something the RN can only dream of.

DMJ
DMJ
15 days ago
Reply to  Lee H

Ocean needed a crew of nearly 300 RN plus air group. The man power was needed for the carriers.

Last edited 15 days ago by DMJ
Andrew Munro
Andrew Munro
14 days ago
Reply to  DMJ

Hasn’t anyone heard of press gang????

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
15 days ago
Reply to  Lee H

We should just order a direct replacement. I reckon £250 million would do. Get it built on a revised Tide class hullform and running gear. Would top out at around 25000 tons and be a bargain.

John N
John N
15 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Or a Canberra class LHD @ 27,500t.

Sean
Sean
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

£250 million gets you a T31 without any weapons. So you’re not going to get another HMS Ocean for that. If built to the same commercial standards as Ocean was, with a 20 year planned service it’s going to cost at least £350 million (Oceans cost adjusted for inflation to todays value), and if built to RN standards I doubt much change out of £450 million.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
14 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Nobody considers that the RN spent millions on AMP/FTSP on Ocean to get her up to spec. Welding watertight/gas tight doors into passageways to replace the wooden swing doors as used on commercial ships.
Her command and control set up was a joke. LAN and power cables run in the false deck head and dropped through the roof tiles to the biggest table onboard that could take laptops and chairs.
Her vehicle capacity was woeful
Mechanically she was a one off licence to print money for the engine manufacturers Wartsila and anyone else who fitted bespoke kit onboard.

Stu
Stu
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

If we were to replace it, and we’re spending £450m plus the extras you mention, are we talking 600? 700?
Starts getting to a number where we might as well partner with Fincantieri, spend a cool £1b & build a Trieste.

Sean
Sean
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Sounds like the entire ‘commercial build’ concept of Ocean proved to be ‘penny-wise, pound foolish’. And a potential death-trap had she ever gone into combat and sustained damage.
Hopefully that bright idea won’t be repeated ever again.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Wonderful in sight as usual gunbuster. So interesting hearing from someone that actually has knowledge and knows how stuff actually works.
With regards to the Argus mods I think that will have to make do.
Main concentration for navy for a while seems to be getting type31, dreadnoughts and solid stores. Then type 32 etc. Type 26 is going to be ongoing for ages. Maybe it is best just to make do with the amphibious fleet and prepare for Albion, bays replacements in the future

Steve M
Steve M
14 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

It is always just the time it takles to get anything designed, approved and actually built is the issue, we spending millions keeping old a/c/ships/vehicles going due to the lack of direction and purpose. Personally i think we need 2 highend LPD’s (with hangers) backed up with 4-6 MRSS have same hull forms but possibly fit one/two out with L3 medical facilites this would provide the LRGs with organic air and allow QE’s to stay offshore

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Quite

The lessons were learned hence the Albions and Bays were built to a much, much better standard from the off.

And Ocean #2 was never ordered. I wonder why?

Ocean was also a design of the pre internet era and so LAN was never a part of the core design thinking.

DaveyB
DaveyB
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

I was on Ocean a few times as part of the Air Group. One thing I remember was how crap it was riding the waves, compared to the Invincible class.

Steve
Steve
14 days ago
Reply to  Lee H

One thing to consider is Brazil will use their vessels way less than the RN, so can launch of photo ops and then send back to port to fix. It’s entirely possible that ocean is close to useless for Brazil but looks good for photo ops showing Brazil military capability

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  Steve

It is hard to know what real use it is to them anyway: when did they last do expeditionary warfare?

Steve
Steve
14 days ago

A lot of global military expenditure, including the UK’s, is all about keeping up with the Jones and very little to do with actual military capability or need.

Paul T
Paul T
14 days ago
Reply to  Steve

Id disagree,to me the UK Defence Budget is all about creating,supporting and sustaining High Tech ( but niche ) UK Industry – not so much about equipping our Armed Forces with the best Gear at the best price.

Steve
Steve
14 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

That’s one of the issues to why good value is rarely obtained, everyone views the issues from a different view point.

To me the defense budget is about getting the best kit for our troops, so they can defend themselves when they are sent into harm’s way.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
14 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

Spot on. How much of the previous uplift went straight into fat cats pockets? 9 billion over a decade on Tempest. And if it is cancelled? Will the military get that 9 billion back to spend on equipment? Fat chance.

The armed forces come third in the defence budget. Deterrent and industry ahead.

AlexS
AlexS
14 days ago

when did they last do expeditionary warfare?

WW2 in Italy.
Last “war” was the Lobster War with the French.

Admiral Paulo Moreira da Silva, Brazil’s Navy expert in the field of oceanography who had been sent to assist the diplomatic committee during the general discussions,[14] argued that for Brazil to accept the French scientific thesis that a lobster would be considered a fish when it “leaps” on the seafloor, it would be required in the same way to accept the Brazilian premise that when a kangaroo “hops,” it would be considered a bird

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
15 days ago

If we had kept HMS Ocean would both QEC be fully crewed with the manpower shortages the RN had at the time?

People would then be complaining we have 2/3 billion pound carrier in port withg no crew!

It is what it is. I believe other navies operate ships in a state the RN would not. That is not me saying necessarily that Ocean is in shit state, just that we have higher standards.

Look at the Forts in Egypt for example.

Numbers on paper do not show capability or reliability.

Simon
Simon
14 days ago

Be interesting to see what Gunbuster, has to say. I expect she isn’t going to sea that much and are there safety standards that Brazil is dodging for example

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
14 days ago
Reply to  Simon

See various comments above. I worked on her in Guz as a matelot and also as the civvy PM when she was out this way. She was a state both times!
Capts cabin was nice though for Coffee and Chocolate Hobnobs!

Frank62
Frank62
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

ffbnw Custard cream?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
13 days ago
Reply to  Frank62

Bourbons where on offer. Custard creams …No …as you say FFBNW

Simon
Simon
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Thanks Gunbuster, confirmed what I thought you had said before.

Martin
Martin
14 days ago

Exactly, that’s why so many 1942 light fleet carriers stayed in service decades after we used them. If you just want to sit in port all the time in the tropics looking good then it’s easy. If you want high readiness in the North Atlantic your going to find 60 year old ships won’t cut it.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
14 days ago
Reply to  Martin

 “sit in port all the time in the tropics looking good then it’s easy.”

I suspect that is the way for many an armed forces, especially in the Middle East and Asia. Look good on paper numbers wise but actually carry out a complex military operation, no so much.

HM forces can and do conduct those operations, and deploy, regularly.

Lets see Brazil operate a carrier group for months on the other side of the world.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
14 days ago

Quite a few seem to play the numbers game but it’s not the size of it that matters it’s what you do with it that counts. 😂😂
Having kit is the east bit. Using it to its full potential and staying at that level is the hard bit.

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
15 days ago

We have multi-billion pound carriers alongside – with no aircraft. Billions spent on Ajax – and no vehicles for the Army.. The MoD blew billions on 175 Typhoon fighters – and only 60 are airworthy – and those are without the latest radar

The incoming PM is going to have to make some hard decisions shortly

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
15 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Not that hard. Scrap Ajax. Get refund. Order Boxer or CV90 instead. Saving around 1.5-2 billion. Accelerate type 26 build rate and order a 3rd batch of 4 ships. Tell BAE to get it done for £700 million each as unit price must have come down with Aussie and Canadians ordering them. Put an order in for latest Tranche 4 typhoons 36 aircraft to see us through to Tempest and to allow the scrapping of tranche 1 without critically reducing our fast jet numbers too low at a critical time in history. More P8 poseidons- another 4-5 Order LRASM for… Read more »

Mark
Mark
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Given the Australian and Canadian frigates are being built in their nations, not sure how that would significantly affect the unit price for U.K. built hulls.
Nor do I see how the next gen SSNs could accelerated to the level you are suggesting given that the SSBNs are going to be taking up most of the U.K. sub capacity for that period.

eclipse
eclipse
14 days ago
Reply to  Mark

Biggest cost for most shipbuilding programmes is the R&D. Zumwalts cost 4.24bn each to build but their price range was over 7bn each due to the massive R&D cost. Same goes for the Type 26s, though perhaps not that high. The more are built, the more spread out the massive R&D cost is.

Martin
Martin
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

If you vote for Liz Truss you will get all that plus income tax cut to zero 😀

Frank62
Frank62
14 days ago
Reply to  Martin

Liz Truss, or Boris light! Out of the frying pan…. Shame Penny got knocked out of the race.

Peregrine16
Peregrine16
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

That was going well until you mentioned balance of trade which will continue to decline along with so many other things in the wreckage of Brexit. As the post-brexit economy shrinks the % spent on defence will have to keep increasing just to stand still in terms of actual cash money.

eclipse
eclipse
14 days ago
Reply to  Peregrine16

Not a single analyst, remainer or leaver, and certainly no investment banker, financial adviser or economist believes the U.K. economy will shrink. It will not. A lot of my friends work in financial analytics and in management and neither their projections say that, nor does the atmosphere surrounding the U.K. economy seem at all negative. Considering the pound will grow, economic growth relative to the rest of the world, and purchasing power, will actually grow even faster than nominal growth. The balance of trade, if you look, has only increased after Brexit, with the U.K. going from a net importer… Read more »

Sean
Sean
14 days ago
Reply to  Peregrine16

It’s says a a lot about a person’s character when they wish harm to their country just to prove their political dogma. Fortunately you’re wish won’t be coming true, nobody is predict the economy to shrink.

It’s been 6 years since you lost the referendum, stop sulking, accept the result, move on with your life. Nobody likes a bad loser.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
14 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Bravo.

Paul.P
Paul.P
14 days ago
Reply to  Sean

I didn’t read his comment as wishing harm to his country, just stating a fact, our economy took a hit because of Brexit. We voted for it so we have to suck it up. My understanding is that it will take a few years to catch up. In any event the Brexit effect is being dwarfed by covid and Ukraine. The next and bigger challenge is probably managing climate change, flooding, drought, food and energy security and the survival of our culture. FFS why are there 30 Confucius Institutes in the UK? We need to worry less about the Taiwan… Read more »

Sean
Sean
14 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Well I read it that way, he’s just waiting to gloat and say “I told you so”… he’ll be a long time waiting. The economy isn’t going to shrink, and the big hits to the economy have been due to Corvid and the Ukraine invasion. The trade deficit with the EU has actually improved since leaving – it’s hilarious how many EU based companies have said we don’t export to the U.K. now because it’s ‘too difficult’ whereas U.K. companies have just shrugged their shoulders and said ‘it’s just like exporting the rest of the world’. So imports to the… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
14 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Brexit had to happen in order for the UK to regenerate, to remember our heritage and culture we need to come together in response to adversity. That’s how nations are formed and what must happen every time they forget how they were brought into being. The Lionesess won last night. England is being reborn. At its heart England is Plantagenet.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
14 days ago
Reply to  Sean

I don’t think that’s right. I’ve seen quite a few saying a recession may be on the cards. Economy shrinking is really bad. Anything under a 1-2% growth is still not great. Obviously lots of other things have to be taken into account to say how bad those numbers are. But climbing interest rates, high inflation and already spending more than comes in for previous years is not a great position for any leader to walk into. The thing with the brexit referendum is that it was a close vote so nearly half of people didn’t want to go the… Read more »

Sean
Sean
14 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

I’ve seen quite a few say the earth is flat and the moon landings staged, doesn’t mean it’s true . 🤷🏻‍♂️ Yeah lots of people with political motivations will mouth-off about a “recession”. Plenty predicted it during the pandemic – didn’t happen. Even the gloomy prediction from the IMF yesterday only put the chances of recession among the G7 at 15% – or rather 85% chance there wouldn’t be one. At the moment we have the highest employment ever in the U.K., and it’s a jobseekers market. Anecdotally, the tech/engineering sector I work in is booming – record contract wins… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by Sean
AlexS
AlexS
14 days ago
Reply to  Peregrine16

I see a lot of South Korean products everywhere, do they belong to EU?

Martin
Martin
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Our balance of trade with Europe is improving as we pump tonnes of gas over the channel inter-connector however our balance of trade with every where we import the gas into Milford heaven from is f**ked which is why the Pound is now known as the North Atlantic Peso. 😀

David Steeper
David Steeper
14 days ago
Reply to  Martin

You are aware since you obviously think deeply and dispassionately about these things that the pound is at a 5 year high against the euro ?

Last edited 14 days ago by David Steeper
eclipse
eclipse
14 days ago
Reply to  Martin

Please read my above response to peregrine re balance of trade.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Mr Bell, I actually enjoyed reading your shopping list here!! I’d only say Boxer “and” CV90/Redback/Lynx whatever is tops and where needed! Good luck to all present and future 🇬🇧 purchases!

Paul.P
Paul.P
14 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63
Stu
Stu
14 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

100%. It was pretty much the only change I would’ve asked for.

Jon
Jon
14 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Of those, I’d say Boxer. Tracked Boxer needs investigating, and another cost-cutting partnership with Italy could be on the cards, as soon as the plug is pulled on Ajax life-support. Sell the hulls to the Yanks for spares and call it a day.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
14 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Why? Only here to the next election. Hardly time to redecorate.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
14 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Squadrons and singleton flights disembark when ships are alongside unless the vessel is on immediate notice to sail.
RAF/ WAFUs do there maintenance at the squadron airfield where all their kit and spares are kept.
Ajax= Cluster
Typhoon is being upgraded.
Its not a pot noodle upgrade. You cannot add water , leave for 5 mins and stir and suddenly thats it done.
Air frames need taking out of service in manageable numbers to ensure coverage remains.
Techy and fitter numbers need to be available to do the work.
The new kit needs building by the supplier.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Pot noodle upgrade😂😂😂😂

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

I love pot noodle upgrades….:)

I do wish people would realise what is involved in some of these upgrades in terms of planning & sequence of works etc.

Nothing takes 5 mins and rushed upgrades often have unforeseen and sometimes tragically fatal consequences….

Jonathan
Jonathan
14 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

”only 60 are air worthy” that’s why we have a large fleet of airframes, you will have cycles of refit and improvement, deep maintenance ect….we have around 100+ airframes left after a lot of active service and improvements. Having 60 operational of the 100 is about what you should and would expect. There is a reason the government are still not say no to the 135 F35s in total and that is during the lifetime of a fleet you need a lot of airframes to ensure you can keep your deployable airframes at the correct numbers. we have an airwing… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
15 days ago

Werent we told HMS Ocean was in a poor material state and couldnt be refitted or serve any longer?
Seems we were all told a fib.
She’s still going and could have been retained and served as a useful 3rd carrier/ ASW asset.
We all know why she was didposed of. Crew and manpower shortages. Her crew were immediately transfered over to HMS QE.
Sad state of affairs.

DMJ
DMJ
15 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

It depends on the standards of each navy as to what constitutes a poor material state Brazil operated the batch 1 Type 22’s for many years after we sold them, they did the same with the French carrier ex Foch. A new coat of paint can hide a lot!

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
14 days ago
Reply to  DMJ

Foche is the real clue.

If you think that was in any way useful by the time she was scrapped you need a reality check.

Steve R
Steve R
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Kuznetsov was still operational until a crane broke it. Doesn’t mean I’d want our sailors in a ship the same state as it.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

She was a Sh*t state. New command system required. New mechanical systems required.
The MOD could have done it for a massive cost but had other priorities. UKPLC makes more money off of supporting equipment than it does selling it. Thats why you sell low so you reap in the spares and support contracts later on.

Paul T
Paul T
14 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I thought Ocean’s crew formed the basis of POW not QE ? .

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
15 days ago

The “old girl” still looks pretty damn good to me.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
14 days ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Probably not underneath and doesn’t go to sea as much as a Royal Navy ship. She was designed to commercial standards with a set design life. The Royal Navy I think used up all her designed lifetime. It’s the running cost aswell. If ocean had been retained for the last 4 years fully crewed with choppers, marines etc that adds to a lot of cash that would of had to come out of other navy programs. Perhaps no type 45 improvements would cover the cost of her. It’s a balancing act and without a bigger navy budget and more trained… Read more »

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
14 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

No argument M.S. Merely saying she look good. I’m not sure we’ll see another like her. Aircraft, crew etc, where are they coming from? You know my thoughts on the F35. QE and POW as a “hybrid” Carrier/LPH might be a sensible way forward.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
14 days ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

It is a nice ship. I had hoped for a modernised version after the first ocean came along or a new design with similar looks but nothing so far.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
14 days ago

Italy has massively increased the funds its allocated to Tempest development.
Was to spend €20m in 2022 and €20m in 2023 and estimated it would spend €2bn by 2035. In the new defence budget its allocated €220m in 2022, €345m in 2023 and now forecasts a total outlay of €3.8bn by 2036.

Last edited 14 days ago by Watcherzero
Watcherzero
Watcherzero
14 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

That rate of spend is significant prototyping. Either they are building some significant components for testing, or Italy is building a 2nd demonstrator.

Jon
Jon
14 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Defence News has Italy’s military procurement spend at €7.85 bn for this year. Ours is planned to be £9.7 bn in 2021/22. So their overall procurement budget is about two thirds of ours. That’s pretty significant, especially when you consider nearly a quarter of ours goes on nuclear. Even if Sweden doesn’t commit, the three budgets of UK, Italy and Japan should be enough to push Tempest over the line.

Paul.P
Paul.P
14 days ago
Reply to  Jon

The Italians are smart and are good partners. They bought Tornado ADV.

Deep32
Deep32
14 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Not entirely correct Paul, the Italians leased a number of F3 ADV (20-28?) from the RAF for some 10 years I believe.
This was to fill a requirement between the F104 going out of service and the introduction of the Typhoon which was delayed.

Paul.P
Paul.P
14 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

Well, ok. Sort of a Tory ‘help to buy’ scam.😊

Paul T
Paul T
13 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

Correct Deep – but when the F3’s were handed back Typhoon was still not ready so they leased some F16’s off Uncle Sam.

AlexS
AlexS
14 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I don’t understand the marginal reference to Tornado ADV , since Italy was with Germany and UK part of Team Tornado from start. They build their wings and several other pieces of it and bought 100 Tornado IDS.

Last edited 14 days ago by AlexS
Paul.P
Paul.P
14 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Just paying a complement to the Italians for their flexibility.

AlexS
AlexS
12 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Ok.

Expat
Expat
14 days ago

Generally systems support not well understood but this highlights that bolting systems onto a ship adds to its day to day running costs, the suppliers need to be paid softwaresubscriptions and servicecontracts need to be in place.

The RN get this and hence the T31, because they don’t need to be paying service costs for systems that aren’t needed for aid delivery or constabulary roles. Let the bun fight begin 😀

Jon
Jon
14 days ago
Reply to  Expat

If T31 were to be solely a constabulary vessel, you’d be right, but then, why build it at all when the Rivers are already doing that job for half the price and with higher availability? Maybe one or two for hot-spots like the Gulf, but why 5 and then up to 5 more T32s? Their existence is predicated on them being more than that. The size screams future expansion. The only questions are what expansions and when. If there’s a war, what could you upgrade the T31s with in time to make a difference? I would argue, not enough. We… Read more »

Stu
Stu
14 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Yes and no. T31 are what they are & built to a price. Let build complete for that price and THEN add some extra stuff including Mk41 silo’s so they don’t bump up the cost or delay them.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
14 days ago
Reply to  Stu

The 5 type 31 are to take on the role that is currently undertaken by the 4-5 type 23s that do not carry the towed sonar array. The type 26 takes over from the 7-8 type 23 that have the towed array fitted.
I totally agree with let’s just get them built. If there is spare budget that can be spent on the type 31 that’s fine. So your top tier frigates are the type 23/26 and the type 31 fits nicely underneath them.

Stu
Stu
14 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Agreed. Think what Jon was saying has merit too though – should the brown stuff hit the fan, how quickly could they be up armed? Just throwing ideas around but, if we can scrape together the cash & get them Mk41 silos as soon as budget allows after they comission (albeit the silo’s will be empty by default), up-arming could be done in an afternoon. We’re talking £15-20m per ship here for 24 cells. To fit the Mk41, we’re talking small refit BUT we might not have time for it in time of war. I just think it’s not a… Read more »

Jon
Jon
14 days ago
Reply to  Stu

It’s only a small refit if you have Mk 41s waiting in a warehouse somewhere, otherwise you have all the tiresome business of ordering them at exactly the time everyone else will want things built.

Expat
Expat
14 days ago
Reply to  Jon

I’m hoping the T32 are the answer. They have a base configuration but as mother ships you onboard what you need for the role.

Jon
Jon
14 days ago
Reply to  Expat

There are two issues. First there’s currently only one Type 32 planned, with an unfunded aspiration to build five, and even that first one won’t turn up until 2030 at the earliest. We’ll have to wait a long time to see if your hopes pan out. Next, the Type 31s and Type 26s have module mission bays, but have any modules been ordered? Have any even been designed yet? And more importantly, has any budget been put aside for them to be designed and built? Having a stockpile of swapable modules sounds great, but it’s more expensive than simply equipping… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by Jon
Expat
Expat
14 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Good points, but if you take a flight deck that allows for flexible modules to be on board ie helicopters. If deployed to the Gulf then a Wildcat is deployed to go after small atrack craft, if its the North Atlantic then a Merlin for hunting subs. I don’t buy 1 platform, they are share and deployed for a role.. I don’t cart around a Merlin and a wild cat at the same time. Here’s another example, the USMC embarked on the amphibious assault ship Boxer, parked a LMADIS jammer on the Boxer’s flight deck. Now whilst anti drone system… Read more »

Jon
Jon
13 days ago
Reply to  Expat

True, and they keep swapping limited numbers of Phalanx around. I’ll keep faith.

Jonno
Jonno
14 days ago

Brazil has gone bit off side on Ukraine is this a worry?

RobW
RobW
14 days ago
Reply to  Jonno

Not really. They are trying to be neutral, as are Argentina, but ultimately both approved UN resolutions calling for an end to the war and withdrawal of Russian troops. Brazil has a far right unpredictable president but even he couldn’t vote against the majority in the UN and the will of the US.

Ianbuk
Ianbuk
13 days ago

This will be the former HMS Ocean, a ship that was “old, past it’s use, close to the scrap heap, worn out?”

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
13 days ago
Reply to  Ianbuk

Probably still is, a nice paint job on the deck won’t hide that when it keeps breaking down or costs a fortune to maintain or the spares are unavailable or the BDC and C3 substandard.

But many an armed forces in S America Asia and Africa won’t be so concerned about this. It floats and it looks good!

Animal
Animal
9 days ago

amazing

David Flandry
David Flandry
7 days ago

This ship was perfectly capable of serving as a British commando carrier, but bean-counters sold it for beans to another country.