The contract intends to create 1,200 UK shipyard jobs, hundreds of graduate and apprentice opportunities, and an expected 800 further jobs across the UK supply chain.
British-led Team Resolute, comprising BMT, Harland & Wolff and Navantia UK, has been appointed as the preferred bidder to deliver three crucial support ships to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA).
The £1.6 billion contract (before inflation) to manufacture the vessels providing munitions, stores and provisions to the Royal Navy’s aircraft carriers, destroyers and frigates deployed at sea, is subject to HM Treasury and Ministerial approval.
- Navantia UK will act as the prime contractor of the consortium. Navantia is a world-leading shipbuilder and has established a permanent UK presence.
- Transfer of Navantia’s cutting edge digital shipyard knowledge to Harland & Wolff will support the modernisation and availability of the Belfast shipyard as a sovereign asset with a highly skilled workforce capable of competing and exporting globally.
- BMT will be responsible for the ship design ahead of manufacture and will deliver the integrated logistic support package.
- BMT is the only company to have been involved in the design of QEC and MARS Fleet Tanker Programme. This experience provides the best possible foundation for delivering an FSS design that will comply with the project requirements and embed world-class environmental standards.
- Final outfitting, integration of blocks, modules and sensitive systems, as well as all testing and commissioning, will take place at Harland & Wolff.
- Harland & Wolff has two of Europe’s largest drydocks in Belfast, has a rich heritage of shipbuilding experience, and provides the best opportunity from which to enhance UK shipbuilding across its various UK Delivery Centres.
https://twitter.com/geoallison/status/1592844922343682050
According to a statement:
“Pledging to invest £77 million in shipyard infrastructure to support the British shipbuilding sector, they aim to create one of the most advanced yards in the UK, significant for future export and domestic shipbuilding and offshore opportunities.
The proposal pledges that the entire final assembly for all three ships will be completed at Harland & Wolff’s shipyard in Belfast, with the three 216-metre-long vessels – each the length of two Premier League football pitches – to be built to Bath-based BMT’s entirely British design.
Under the contract, the majority of the blocks and modules for the ships would be constructed at Harland & Wolff’s facilities in Belfast and Appledore, with components to be manufactured in their other delivery centres in Methil and Arnish. This programme, which would also support a significant British-based supply chain, would be undertaken in collaboration with internationally renowned shipbuilder, Navantia.”
Batch 2 26’s ordered and now FSS this is brilliant news. No cut to numbers or delay in build. It’s going to be interesting to see how certain contributors to this site (who shall remain nameless) can spin this into bad news. Ok guys let’s here it.
Oh I’m sure that either the doomsayers and/or the Putin-lackeys will manage to come up with some negative-spin or a conspiracy around the timings 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Or perhaps it is a case of this already has budget lines agreed and that announcing it leads to planning and certainty?
Or that HMG realised that with a reasonable number of F35B available the only thing preventing sovereign use of the QEC’s was this?
Or HMG saw the benefits of the Babcock / BAE pencil sharpener?
Or HMG realised that given the drumbeat of ship replacements needed then another shipyard was needed.
Or maybe some combo of that lot?
Nah you’re not being creative enough on the conspiracy theories, for them to gain traction in social media they have to be really out beyond the realm of possibility and into fantasy; eg that this was announced only after Rishi’s wife took a secret majority stake in Navantia.
You are right of course.
Now the Donald is back in politics I need to include some post truth ‘facts’.
Hard checkable facts are so unfashionable….
I’m sure some of the Trumpians on here will be able to supply some post-truth facts for you.
I forgot to mention that there’ll also no doubt be some who complain that
• 3 FSS is insufficient and that we should be ordering 30 ships
• that the design is completely lacking in 15inch gun turrets
• that they are rubbish at sub-hunting
What what… only 3 FSS… FFS…
No 15in and no sub-hunting!!!
Well, at least they are getting VLS Tomahawk and 50mw Lasers blasters!!
What do you mean they are not ASW ships….what a wasted opportunity.
I think we are all a little miffed the FSSS has chosen to omit the 15 inch guns. Personally I would have like some for of death ray installed. 😀
Don’t forget the lack of torpedo tubes.
Photons or Quantium torpedoes?
Bravo! 👏🏻
Sean……?you missed Cats & Traps…..🤣🤣
For launching repurposed C130’s as saturation bombers presumably 😆
FFBNW. 🤣😂😁. Surely to be addressed at mid-life refit.
FFBNW only to be fitted at mid-life and then upgraded to actual FW at life-ex 😆
👍😁
Please, tripled mount 16inch.
Ah another fan of the Nelson’s…?
Perhaps the superstructure should be octagonal too? Bring back the Queen Anne’s Mansions!! 😉
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oR2ltH4aqAM obviously, being as thick as I am, I find it hard to keep up but, interesting vids on why the calibres were decided on – linky is to the channel not the specific broadcast.
Ah Drachinfel is excellent. I particularly enjoyed his episode about French pre-dreadnought battleships entitled “When Hotels Went to Sea”. 😂
Will watch when I have time, but if a gun is so powerful, like Rodney’s, to fire shells through Bismark and out the other side, I think that validates it’s sufficiently powerful 😆
Someone on some site somewhere mentioned these ships don’t have port holes but do have ensuites in the cabins…is this true or someone taking the p**s?
I thought portholes were done away with a long time ago – NBRC protection.
Is that what happened… so cunning…are we sure that there is not also a secret deal around the sovereignty of gib…..we give Spain some work and they shut up for at least a couple of years.
Oh I think that’s the best conspiracy so far!! 👏🏻
I thankyou….it’s because of the work I do, I’m a professional planner of “what is the worst possible thing that could happen” so my mind it’s a bit twisted by thinking up horrible things constantly 😂
Yes I can relate to that when I have my PM hat on 👍🏻😆
Did that already with Ajax?😆
Just asking quietly…. how is the Ajax saga going? Any updates? Lol.
🤔🤞
Uh, … hate to surface as the crackpot psycho conspiracy advocate, but is everyone quite certain re the role Navantia is slated to perform? Under normal circumstances, would not question a Spanish company’s motives, but there is this small matter of a diplomatic tiff over Gib… Not certain re company’s ultimate loyalties… May only be fevered imagination…🤔😳
Sorry, did not read far enough down the thread to observe my theory already covered; it is strangely comforting that no matter how I attempt to connect the dots, I usually have some company on this site. Remember all that even the paranoid can have enemies! 😉😁
I think we can certain in the knowledge that like every other company, it’s ultimate loyalty is to it bottom line 💵💶💷
Spain is a NATO ally and for many years a EEC/EU ally. Brits love Spain and many own property there. We trade well with each other.
I have never considered that our dispute over Gib has ever got in the way of cooperation in all the really important areas.
Understood, thanks (as mentioned above even the paranoid can have enemies). 🤔😉
Spain is ultimately an ally, and plenty of joint defence projects have happened between us and them. They want Gib back, but trying to hold 3 ships hostage in exchange for it isn’t something they’d be doing.
If you don’t mind I would like to add to your list. HMG (Ben Wallace) used some imaginative, fiscally brilliant joined up thinking to tick a lot of boxes at one go. a) Build the ships we need here in the U.K. b) Engage Navantia to help revitalise and modernise one of the UK’s greatest Strategic assets which is the H&W drydocks (which we paid for in the 60’s). They have the recent experience that we don’t so a logical move. c) Use the above to plug the massive single point of failure for our 2 new CV’s, which was… Read more »
That is an expansion of the BAE / Babcock pencil sharpener!
Although, how does that play with Babcock having the contract to dry dock the QEC’s?
How do you use a dry dock for a QEC when it is mid way through a build process?
I think Babcock actually considered floating half built FSS hulls of the dock to accommodate the carriers. I bet there was a contract clause that the MoD paid for unscheduled DD of a Carrier, like we have right now with the PoW. That’s synical of ne I know
Well I was actually thinking about their potential use post FSS work. But given the size of the H&W dry docks you could probably use the caisson to divide the dock into 2 separate areas. They are absolutely huge at 556m x 90m so there is room for a 250 assembly area for the FSS (216m) and for a QE to be docked at the same time. If these are block built then you assemble in the dock 1 hull at a time. As for the Babcock contract if I remember correctly it will be due renewal at about the… Read more »
Sorry that’s all too outlandish 🤷🏻♂️
Me or HMG ? 🫢
🤣
BW, a rare gift. Isn’t there a line from some play or musical about the Lord looking after ‘mad dogs and Englishmen who stay out in the noon day sun’? (You all would be in the ‘Englishmen’ category 😉.)
Rudyard Kipling originally used the expression when discussing Indian, but it was Noel Coward that popularised it with a song. Like most stereotyping, it has a grain of truth behind it 😏
Neither a play or musical, it is a song by Noel Coward called Mad Dogs and Englishmen.
Which let’s me off the hook as I am a sensible but dour Scot.
🙃
To your list I will add that it also meets the objective of reinforcing/supporting the UK union. Certain parties over here (NI) constantly whine about a lack of investment generally, & in the shipyards particularly. The UK is now doing something that an Irish government couldn’t replicate.
I take it you are from NI ? Lovely place and although from Galloway the nearest decent City to me is Belfast 😉
Now here is a thought to make you chuckle, most of the modern INS ships were built in Appledore.
So when they tender for new ones you could end up with some bits built in Belfast at H&W !
It always makes me reflect that in any ways the U.K. and Eire do a lot of neighbourly cooperation.
Yes I live just outside Belfast , although actually a ‘blow in’ from southern England. It’s a great city. I have seen those Appledore built OPV’s in Lough Swilly, over in Donegal, a few times. Nice looking ships.
HI SB, Given that this and I think the MROSS purchase of a couple of second vessels were annouced earlier than expected I am wondering if Ben Wallace has decided to commit as much of those budgetted lines to some level of publicised contract as possible to protect as much of the naval expansion as he can… The optimistic thought is that the government is still hoping to use ship building as part of the levelling up agenda which would fit well with this order giving Belfast and the South West of England a boost. If the upgrades of the… Read more »
It’s a plausible idea, though it only works if Ben can sign-off such expenditures himself without having to walk it by the Treasury first 🤔
Well if the budget line is approved then subject to the usual checks then he can.
I was thinking he already had sign off from the Treasury and is getting things in the public domain before they changed their minds and wound back on the funding. He just made it far harder for them to trash the RN’s recapitalisation programme. I think he’ll have pretty broad support in Parliament given the cross party Defence Committee’s “We are going to need a bigger Navy…” position. Reason for my thinking is that he appears to be hustling things through at the moment and a part from what is happening in Ukraine I can’t think of any other rationale… Read more »
It’s also possible the Treasury has told depts that anything previously signed-off needs to be completed contractually before the Autumn statement, otherwise it will be reevaluated with regard to the squeeze on government spending. But if that was the case, I would have expected major capital projects from other depts; eg roads, rail, new hospitals, and I don’t recall any…
Good Friday Agreement and getting the Unionists on board for Stormont? Just thinking aloud.
Anyone else but the Unionists then it might have had a chance to work. (And it’s the NI Protocol not the Good Friday Agreement that they’re antsy about.)
CR, here’s another thought. It is not beyond the wit of even this current bunch of Parliamentary muppets to get as many contracts out there before an election, so they can point to them and preen themselves in front of the electorate. I wonder if we may be gearing up for an allocation sooner than we all thought. We can but dream.
PS. Being ex Whale Island I certainly agree with the need for at least three twin 15” turrets!
For allocation read election!
Hi Nick,
An election… If only.
Any mention of 15″ guns and I always think of HMS Warspite… One of the longest first time hits ever achieved with heavy guns (the longest for the RN I believe). Ended the war as a 6 gun battleship. The Dreadnaught class SSBN to be named HMS Warspite will carry a quite a list of battle honours.
Cheers CR
CR. If ever there was a missed opportunity it was not keeping Warspite as a museum in 1945. More battle honours than any other battleship. But with a large concrete plug in her bottom and more damage than you can believe I suppose it was not surprising, given not only a socialist government but also a bankrupt country.
It wasn’t a party political issue, it was sheer necessity. We were beyond broke, debt ridden, no Marshal aid and still on rationing.
I think it was 1948 when Churchill made a speech regarding the return of Royal Sovereign from USSR. Basically it is ours we want it back and the scrap will be very handy.
Wonder why the UK was not included in the Marshall Plan? Surely everyone realized you could use the aid, post-war?
We were the biggest recipient of Marshall plan but wasted it. How is a whole other story.
Really? Huh, always thought that was the reason Germany and Japan ended up w/ the shiny new steel mills, while you had to labor on w/ antiquated pre-war mills. Obviously not paying close enough attention in history lectures.
If you want to know the gory details Corelli Barnett wrote a book called ‘Audit of war’ I haven’t read it in a long time it wasn’t good for my blood pressure. It pulls no punches about postwar Britain.
Thanks for the info. Will check to see if available.
That is false.
Vanguard, epitome of the Battleship.
I regret I must disagree. Beautiful ship, and my father served in her before I was born. But she never saw action, whereas Warspite did. As did Duke of York and KG V, both lovely ships.
You have provoked some idle speculation; w/ some intelligent joined-up thought, someone could probably design a modern heavy cruiser/pocket battleship that would be truly formidable. Hull shaping, DGs,GTs and machinery rafted, perhaps a sonar tail. ASW capability. Composite armour, of latest MBT variety. Guns using rocket and GPS enabled munitions. State of the art radar and other sensors. Every imaginable variety of missle, in abundance. Directed energy weapons, when they become feasible. Build enough of these, and you are the most bad-ass navy on the planet. 🤔. The per copy price might be sporting, but plan to build on a… Read more »
Er…Zumwalt?
Possibly, but in my imagination a steroid induced evolution from Zumwalts.
Hope there are some nice and strong names for the T83 class when it comes. Long way off but maybe a HMS Nelson, HMS Rodney could make a return or is that too last century?
The multiplier effect of investment in defense is often not as good as with other industries but ship building may be different due to it being heavy industry. From a point of rejuvinating areas with supply chains and good employment it would definatedly help in levelling up.
🤞🤞, of course, the non-optimistic converse may alternatively prove true, (announcing all the positive news before landing the negative news tomorrow.) Hope that tomorrow’s tidings prove to be reasonable. 🤞
I know many will be upset England’s not getting a yard capable of building surface ships but I think H&W is a great choice. Having Belfast going again and keeping appeldore is a bonus. I’m still secretly hoping for a second submarine production facility at Camal Laird.
I’m a man of simple pleasures so long as they’re built and UK PLC gains from it i’m happy. 😀
I’m not a person who promotes companies, but I want Cammell Laird to get something so it can help the local area thrive and train new apprentices. Slightly off-topic but still linked. Cammell Laird is going to have apprentices help restore a cold war minesweeper, HMS Bronington, commanded by King Charles which is currently submerged in a Wirral dock. A charity has been set up to refloat it.
Not 100% over the line just yet, the article states “is subject to HM Treasury and Ministerial approval”. You would assume they already have this or wouldn’t have announced it, but seems not officially.
You’re right but both Def Sec and CDS met Sunak and Hunt last week. It’s hard to believe both 26 and FSS weren’t discussed and approved. If they hadn’t we’d have had a different Def Sec by tea time today. It’s just pro forma.
Excellent news, the RN seem to be on a roll for good news this week.
Excellent news. Obviously delighted with the go ahead for the ships but I’m also pleased that Harland and Wolff got the contract for the sake of Belfast but also because of Appledore. Both areas need the work.
Would top the week off nicely if they announced a contract for NSM as the interim anti-ship missile.
that has cancelled and restarted so many times nothing would surprise me except maybe deciding to fit it to ajax
haha
too right- Interim anti ship missiles and an order for Mk41 vls for type 45s/ 32s and 31s and I’m going to be ridiculously happy.
Investment in other shipyards for a change
More good news, wonder what else will be confirmed for building!
😆
Modern Rail Networks for that part of the UK that isn’t London would be nice. I see HS2 is getting it in the neck from Ester McVey. WTF is it about blonde politicians the World over?
Excellent. Get the 3 built. On time and to budget.
Great news for Belfast and UK ship building.
Brilliant news for Belfast and good value for money it seems.
Really pleased for H and W, they had to restructure debt last week so this is a huge positive for them.
New ships, new skills, new jobs, new facilities….what’s not to like. Very welcome good news for NI and the Navy.
What a result. Could not approve more of the latest, wait-for-it, ‘Government / MoD joined up thinking’ (there said it; didn’t hurt as much as I thought).
Everyone is pleased, except Labour, apparently. They are starting to look like rabbits in headlights lately; desperate to find the negative in everything, with Navantia participation being the latest critique. Shame, I’ve always supported the fact that they are as committed to UK defence as any party. However, their current kneejerking is clearly degrading their credibility.
I see the Mirror has published an article stating the 1.6b order has gone to a Spanish yard and UK workers have been stabbed in the back.
Their attitude is reminiscent of the pile money into BL without ever spending it to rebuild its competitiveness for the future. This deal does the opposite it brings in world leading expertise that we can exploit in the future to compete once again for contracts which can vary from naval support to rigs and support ships. This is what we shouts always have been doing once we have lost the ability to compete with modern standards. Good to see what’s happening at Sheffield Forgemasters who are getting a brand new state of the art press for firings ( albeit from… Read more »
Would that be like the 800 Series Hitachi trains, that come IKEA style to England? You mean that kind of… expertise…?
Hmm, great deal, only at least double the price of the 390s that were built, in full, at Washford Heath. Yes, I see, great deal.
Labour has credibility in defence matters?? 😳
Well it was the Atlee Government that started the development of the U.K. independent nuclear deterrent post WW2. When Churchill returned to power in 1951 he got a rather nice surprise.
So yes not all negative.
Ernie Bevin deserves a lot of credit for that. He wasn’t a man you could easily say no too.
I think he said something like “If they have a bomb, I want a Bomb with a Great Big Union Jack on it”.
When I feel the need for a chuckle I try to imagine what todays foreign office would make of him as foreign secretary. 😯😯
I seem to remember a labour government ordering two super carriers then a Tory government trying to turn them in to razor blades only to find out a canny Scotsman had crafted a contract so fiendishly difficult to escape that they had to build them anyway then just a few years later that same Tory government built an entire defence strategy around those same super carriers. It was almost like scrapping the carriers to save a few quid was a bad idea .
I believe Mr Wilsons’ conversation went…. What about Cruisers, PM. Nope! What about Carriers, PM, Nope! What about thrudeck cruisers PM. What??? 😳😅
Yeah the party matters a lot less than the individuals in charge at MoD and numbers 10 and 11. Also sometimes good decisions flow from less good reasons. Gordon Brown MP for among other places Rosyth for example ! 😉😉
I’ve seen the Brown/Rosyth story aired before. But if memory serves, Brown was MP for Kirkcaldy/Mid Fife, Rosyth has for many years been in the West Fife constituency, so not actually Brown’s patch. A minor detail only!
Same Atlee that gave the jet engine to the Communists?
Labour also kicked off the QEC programme.
As much as any party on balance, and if you leave out the Curious Case of Magic , I’d say yes in all fairness, Daniele (see ABC has covered the Deterrrent angle).
😮…’Grandpa’ – just disappeared
Yes, we do. And we’ll keep our manifesto commitments on Defence as well, unlike the Cons.
Evening David. Given their record 97 to 2010 of abandoning defence review commitments that is very easy to say, and I will give you my judgement, and remind you of your words, after the next election. Would Labour’s manifesto involve removing expeditionary capabilities, closing overseas intelligence sites, hamstringing the UKSF groups overseas CT operations and nullifying GCHQ and MI5s abilities to do their jobs by any chance? You’d think so judging the comments and attitudes of some on the left of that party. There’s “defence” and there’s defence that leaves the UK military as an empty shell capability wise but… Read more »
He cones across as a thoughtful man with principles but not nearly good enough to run rings around the open goals that Wallace delivered; and Wallace was just a ticket tok.
You’re right, but, as another poster on here with myself, we’re speaking, it’s like a Royal Navy of 6th rates in Parliament at the moment – on all sides. Abysmal.
Auto correct… tick tock.
nice one DM!😆
They all head to the hills for some reason …🤔
I can’t help thinking these announcements are to cushion some bad news in the ‘budget’ tomorrow, or am I being overly pessimistic
I think not, although I suspect that the bad news will not be as bad as it could have been. A key point in the above statement is that there is an allowance for inflation payments in the future something that has not really been explicitly needed for quite a few years now.
We’ll see.
Cheers CR
I dont think much will change for defence except the budget will stay as outlined in the 2021 spending round. The commitment will stay to support Ukraine as best we can, but I think any increase to 2.5% or 3% will be very much at the back end of the decade and if the financial situation improves sufficiently. Will be interesting to see if anything changes with Ajax though.
Ajax might be the sacrificial lamb just to show defence as taking its share… but that won’t get mentioned tomorrow obviously.
Cheers CR
Not sure when this defence review update is due to be published.
Before the end of the year is last I heard.
Thanks David 👍
Hope your assessment is largely correct. American public does tend to wonder whether most NATO partners truly understand the gathering storm clouds in the east. Most realize UK strives to do more, but is constrained by finances.
Well, all European NATO allies truly value the security that USA support guarantees (‘comes with the territory’ if you’re the West’s superpower, of course).
But dare I say we do feel frustration that more of the economic benefits from attempts at joint projects can get stymied by US defence protectionism, Former. There are cases in point, of which this is one:-https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2022/11/advanced-short-range-air-to-air-missile-asraam/
Rgs
I’m not sure, several are just free loaders living of the backs of the American taxpayer.
For instance, how many capabilities have we gapped and then asked the US to fill?
The US always steps up but on the other hand always reaps the rewards from contracts delivered by NATO partners.
Difficult.
Multifaceted indeed. Don’t know why the link didn’t go active.
Counter argument: How many of those gaps are actually necessary for our national security, and how many of them are used for giving the US an extra arm of it’s security structure?
Well, in hindsight we didn’t need an MPA… Or did we? Hindsight is wonderful, we could have scrapped everything and stuck the money into the NHS, couldn’t we?
Not answering my question.
Most European defence expenditure is in furtherance of US defence policy, not European.
Ergo, the yanks can’t winge about footing the bill.
If they didn’t want to, they shouldn’t have eviscerated any form of European strategic autonomy after ww2.
Sorry Dern, I did read your question 3 times before attempting an answer.
I take your point, however, you’re opening up a PhD thesis paper, with that statement.
Or a realist 🤔
It’s going to be terrible budget- swinging cuts across the board, tax rises to pay for Tory incompetence and economic mismanagement. Just what the UK population needs- tax rises on top of an energy crises, a cost of living crises and rising inflation.
I wonder if the UK cartel overplayed their hand thinking they could win irrespective of price and rely on the politics.
Indeed they did.
They started playing the same game they did last time to derail the contract.
This time HMG were wise to this and time had been run out to get these ships into build before the last remaining solids ship that RN has falls apart from old age.
Reportedly this winning bid was amended during the bid process with the amount of work to be done in Spain reduced (originally would have had the 3 hulls completed in Spain then floated to H&W for fitout), though we still dont know the actual breakdown of workshare between UK and Spain.
If we get the promised technology transfer then I’ll to see Spain get something back.
With BAE, Babcock and now H&W busy the National Ship Building Strategy is really beginning to pay off. All we need is for Cammell Laird to get the MROSS…
Cheers CR
There’s a H&W animation of the assembly sequence that shows the bow section arriving in blocks on a barge from Appledore, the stern section floated in complete from Cadiz and the remaining center blocks built in Belfast and craned straight into the dock. All as to be expected given the capabilities and resources of the three yards.
Babcock opens up competition with type 31 which BAE does not like. Typical BAE tactic to then try to merge with competition. Fortunately the MOD had other options. Just have to hope that Navantia does not try a General Dynamics and magically forget it’s suppose to be building in the UK.
Possibly the best bit is that it will mean a complete modernisaition and refit of the Harland and wolf yard. Some £70 mill will be spent on this so I can not help but think theses yards will be hopeing for further work after completion of contract also adding in that military work is very different to civil work and the workforce will all be geared up to military so I presume the future will be the same perhaps not just UK ships but from else where. Has somebody actually done some sensible thinking here? well I hope so but… Read more »
Spot on. The biggest obstacle to a bigger navy has been the lack of domestic shipbuilding capacity. This is a big step towards solving that.
And high prices when you had just one builder.
True.
The biggest obstacle has been a lack of personnel.
Hi Richard,
Construction is due to start in 2025 and that’ll be here before you know it. It only seems like yesterday we were all watching HMSQE starting her sea trials – it was July 2017 (where did that time go.!?)
Cheers CR
Hi Richard, I live just outside Belfast and this is fantastic news. Regards your point about follow-on work – it’s essential or the current contract will be a bit of a waste. Those shipbuilding skills mostly disappeared from the city years ago, so we will need to import them whilst rebuilding the local skills base. Therefore it would be a crying shame if further work was not secured. As others have pointed out though, with those huge docks modernised Belfast would be the best location in the UK for drydocking the carrier’s.
Quite a few follow-on contracts to bid on. Six MRSS to replace amphibs and Argus, up to five Type 32 and six Type 83, one MROSS plus four + Point Class replacements – all this coming in the 2028-40 timeframe.
I’d rather it be 8-9 Type 83 destroyers.
12 would be even better, We’re a long long way from taking decisions about numbers of Type 83. One step at a time.
Yeah 12 would be ideal, and would take our surface fleet up to 29 frigates and destroyers – including the 5 planned Type 32s, whatever they end up being.
Though I’m not too optimistic about getting back up to 2001 numbers of ships, so even 8-9 destroyers would be welcome. Any increase, really.
If he announces MROSS 2 for Laird’s tomorrow, it’ll be a hat trick.
After the initial shock and getting up from the floor caused by HMG contracting 8 new ships in 3 days, I think there is another reason to be cheerful.
Is it only me that just can’t wait to hear the SNP reply to the Budget speech tomorrow ? Take it away Ian Blackford.
“How dare an English Prime Minister commit to building RFA ships outside Scotland in another part of the U.K ? We demand a referendum so we can be free from this etc, etc, etc.”
I should add I am Scottish 🏴
🤣
I’d just give him a deadpan look. Internally count to 10 then ask him how the ferries are doing. 😐🙂😊😂👍
I’d just say absolutely nothing and then let him self explode.
I would not like the job of cleaning that mess up. 😂
Ach away wi ye! Go H+W, Yeo. 😅🤣👌
I think there is zero chance of that, it would be nice to get through One thread without people banging on about the SNP.
Yet, I suppose a Scot is entitled. I should add that I’m not Scottish. We’re a mixed up Nation!
Serious question. Given that the role of these ships is to support the carriers and we only have two of those then what drives the need for 3 FSS?
They can and will supply other vessels as well. Remember the oceans are a very big place
These ships provide replenishment at sea for stores and ammunition therefore 3 are needed- 1 for carrier battlegroups. 1 for other task groups. 1 in reserve/ refit. When joined up with the Tide class we have the potential of maintaining a task group on station for weeks/ months rather than just days on station. Therefore RN reach and endurance is maintained. Crucial ships. Very much needed.
👍👍
I also see them supporting other ships that are forward deployed e.g. in the Far East and Middle East – check out the containers on the fore deck – I explain more below.
Cheers CR
If there is only two FSSS, and one is in long refit, there is only one FSSS in the CRG. Then, the FSSS becomes the primary target for your enemy. One kill, and CSG’s strike capability will be seriously degraded.
Mission done. You do not need to kill the well-protected CV.
The CRG is protected as a whole. The Type 45s provide area air-defence, not just for the carrier.
I agree Donald, you don’t ever need to kill the warships, the supply ships and tankers are normally top of the hit list. Sink those and the CSG goes home.
Which is why having more survivable supply ships is crucial
And perhaps a few bases
In various strategic places
I’d of thought you just targeted tugs!
Except the FSSS will be placed at the centre of the task force as a physical block to the carriers from whichever is deemed the biggest threat axis- a tide will be located on the other side. Common practice to place 2 large auxiliaries either side of a carrier to act as an anti ship missile shield. Just in case anything gets passed the multi layered defence of a CSG
Another step closer to delivering the full potential of carrier strike and the wider escort fleet. Great news 🇬🇧
More good news. These ships look really good. I notice they have room forward for 12 ISO containers, very relevant to supporting the RN’s future frigate force and their modular capabilities. Obviously, I am NOT suggesting they can be transfered at sea, but given the RN / UK as access to ports around the world I think it will offer an additional level of flexibility to RN operations. Especially given the plans to maintain OPV forward deployment and add in T31’s when they become available (recent article somehwere with RN slide showing both types deployed). Good news for H&W but… Read more »
That’s a very good point.
If these could transfer containers/ PODS / mission modules to the frigates then it would be possible to retask them without have to sale for a friendly port.
If only they could also devise a method of reloading VLS systems at sea too…
Hi Sean, I think they would have to sail for sheltered waters as I don’t think the crane shown would be capable of transfering a container in anything but a flat calm. That would mean planning for some kind of sheltered water or a bay at least. I wondered about how you might replenish VLS at sea after previous discussions. As I’m sure you are aware the USN planned for and tried to develop reloading at sea with the Mk41 VLS, but gave up as it proved to be dangerous for the crew in anything but a dead flat calm.… Read more »
The USN have started new trials for VLS reloading in sheltered waters:
https://maritime-executive.com/article/u-s-navy-tries-reloading-vls-missile-cells-with-a-commercial-osv
Thanks for the link, one to watch definitely.
Hi CR, yes I know the USN tried and failed to come up with a safe system for the MK41. Unfortunately I suspect you’re right, that due to their design it’s impossible to a reload system. With a blank sheet you could possibly have something similar to how MLRS is reloaded; horizontally as a batch with the launcher rotated to the launch position. That way the FSS would just transfer the munitions across and the frigate would reload tubes as required, but it would involve a huge amount of extra space being required aboard and you’re placing a lot more… Read more »
I think you are right that the reloads need to be put onto the deck horizontally in the container. The VLS lid is then removed exposing the hinge pin. The base of the container is then coupled to the VLS lid via the hinge pin. The container is then erected vertically. The round then lowered into the VLS cell. It is the only real way I can see of doing this? Two ships and a crane: there is just far too much relative movement even on a millpond. Thing is you need enough space to lay the container + round… Read more »
Yes and it’s the expertise of those like BMT that are the true prize here, we need businesses like them to grow and flourish just as we have in other design sectors.
Excellent news- 3 ships rather than the feared just 2. Blimey- I’m pinching myself- the RN looks like it is going to be thoroughly capable in the 2030s- which is just as well as that is the timeframe that PLAN are forecast to reach maximum power projection capability.
Good news for BMT- another British design coming from this naval architecture firm.
Indeed, very good point around PLAN as they will be our Major geopolitical threat especially in the 2030s as their navy transfers to a more blue water capability.
But, I’ve never seen the PLAN do a RAS! And you’d have thought with their aspirations, that would be a major achievement to publicise.
yes they are a long way from the RN as yet…but they have ambition.
Amen. 🙏
Well done Ben Wallace a really smooth move
Lots of contracts being signed off. This is good, we are seeing the promised recapitalisation of the fleet, which could have been at risk considering the level of inflation and government finances. It’s also good this money is coming back into the U.K. economy as well as getting a partner European shipbuilder ( you do need these partnerships to keep yourself fresh and competitive).
really good to see the three ships being built, as well as the full order for the type 26.
Gives our ship builders some certainty around workforce management during this difficult financial time.
If they get all the upgrade to technology and infrastructure, then it would seem like a good fit for the MRSS in the near future as BMT are bidding for that as well. So you end up with H&W/Appledore doing support ships, BAE Systems doing high end vessels (Clyde) and Rosyth doing GP vessels (Type 31/32). This will give capacity and capability at multiple locations and will help bring costs and delivery schedules down for future ships. Of course it will eventually be screwed up by one politician/Mandarin at some time but for now I will smile at the good… Read more »
So long as there is enough work to keep Belfast and the other yards running it’s a good news day. Would hate to see 3 support ships made and the workforce laid off afterwards.
After the three FSSS I could see BMT and H&W teaming up on MRSS as well giving H&W 9 large vessels to complete. If that could then role in to future tankers or large Ferry’s to replace the point class then you could see a 30 year build cycle keeping the yard going permanently.
Add future amphibious warfare ships and ideally a LPHD or 2 or escort carrier type vessels for drone/ UAV warfare and you’d be winning.
Point replacements will almost certainly be built abroad.
The Bay/Albion/Argus replacements will be UK built.
I’d get the 3 FSSS built at Belfast then move onto the MRSS contract and possibly future amphibious warfare ships (Bay class, Albion Class both forecast to run out of service in the 2030s)
The national shipbuilding programme has to continue a continuous beat of ship construction. If we can truly do that and win a few export orders we will be in a good place.
You forgot Barrow in Furness.
They have their hands full with Subs and potentially supporting Australia deal, but yes another yard 😀
Great stuff. Anything for Cammell Laird?
I recon MROSS if only because everyone else is busy..!
Cheers CR
I think they have already selected the ships and have started the refit. They are to be handed to the RFA in January. I was told by other people on here that the person who told me knew what they were on about, apparently.
Excellent news for UK manufacturing hope the Guinness is flowing in Belfast, British jobs supporting a expanding modern RN.
Gov close to placing order to replenish artillery shells donated to Ukraine.
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/998591/bae-systems-buoyed-by-new-artillery-shell-order-report-998591.html
I’d seen that last night. Will be kept secret just how many 155mm rounds and rocket assisted/ extended range rounds are being ordered. Ditto Rocket launchers rounds. Good to know replenishment of stockpiles is now being addressed. We are in for a long haul of warfare supporting Ukraine- I think Russia will eventually be ground down to come to the peace table. Likely it is going to take a few years and a change in President in Russia before the war in Ukraine finally ends.
With H&W working with Navantia opens up the possibility for a LHD or two based on the Canberra/Juan Carlos design. One can dream 😀
I’d prefer the Trieste class vessel of the ITNS- seems a better design Juan Carlos and Canberra type vessels are a bit pig ugly, have high sides and are reported to be a bit lively in high wind states- according to the RAN.
And Juan Carlos need to have propulsion changed because high vibrations with azipods damage several internal equipment. They also had to return to port due to issues.
Nah. Give us the Wasp Class 🙂 Then your littoral strike groups could… Strike.
An outstanding choice of yard. We must hope that the MoD stay well clear and let this team design and build them quickly. I was half expecting them to place the order with Sturgeon’s Ferguson Marine shipyard in Port Glasgow
Very encouraging news – we are not quite there yet. As important is the implicit thinking about the future of British naval ship building, recruitment and skills. However, caution should be our watch word; if any one can swing an axe it’s Britain.
Supporting Harland & Wolff has the added advantage of securing another dry dock capable of accepting the QEs.
Exactly. I have repeatedly supported H&W Belfast/Appledore on this forum. The proposed investment in Belfast and also Arnish will be most welcome. Good news for the RFA and for British shipbuilding
In keeping with the return of Naval vessels being built in Belfast RFA Titanic sounds catchy
Titanic, Britannic and Oceanic.👍
All in all good news for the RN, Batch II T26s, the FSS ship, T45 PIP starting to come out of the works and the planned upgrade to weapons and sensor fit to the T45s. All the RN now needs is an anti ship missile, the T32 and T83 to be commited to and the RN would be in a better place than it has been for 20+ years. If we could start building the T32 in 2027 and the T83 in 2035 then the yards have follow on work, no boom and bust cycle, and an increase in surface… Read more »
6 MRSS wouldn’t go to the RN anyway, at most three to replace the two albions.
Can someone in the RN please show the Army how to plan, prepare and deliver a modern and formidable capability, while maintaining and actually increasing recruitment and retention!!!!!!
Simples. Foxtrot Oscar the Black Mafia, goto an Army of educated infantrymen, skilled in diplomacy and gendarmerie, that’s the RMP, and have a Division of PARA, when it all goes tits up.
You know, you may have something there! 😂👍
Honestly, I really don’t understand the never ending bollocks that sees 4*250 PID Bns, grouped together and labelled as a Brigade, with the Braid to man it, delivering change… Is it just me that is fed up with delivering change, working at pace cobblers? Infantry fight, they kick in doors, shoot dead the opfor and go home for tea and medals. Infantry do not deliver change. Infantry are not special forces… except for the Royal Irish – they’re just mad and can berserker better than a PARA. As to Armour/ Strike / Ajax and their CS CSS, it has become… Read more »
I have never heard of Navantia. Who are they. Where are they based. Hope all goes well in Belfast.
50 years ago Harland & Wolff would have been considered a modern world leading ship builder that was more than able to transfer expertise to Spanish shipyards. But now we read in the MOD press release:
How times have changed and the mighty have fallen.
I had family working at Harland and Wolff. My Uncle took me to a dodgy pub at the dockside nearby, as a 25 year old and he made me walk in first. Like the oft repeated scene from the movies, there was a pause in the hub hub and all eyes turned on this youngster from South Africa in funny clothes. Then they saw my uncle and things changed instantly-“Ah howyra doin Rex” ” Who’s the wee lad?”
It was a moment.
The mighty have fallen indeed Richard.I also remember ICI Courtaulds and Shorts Brothers- other industrial giants in Northern Ireland at that time
Wow arent we all looking forward to RFA’s Titanic, Olympic and Massive?
haha
Good news! I think the challenge will be getting the workforce culturally onboard with modern design practices, etc. and I think that will require both carrot and stick. Doesn’t matter if you’ve worked int he yards for 20+ years, if you can’t conform to the new QAQC and HSE standards then you’re gone. Tough. I know that might sound like a whole bunch of wihy washy nonsense, but the UK oil and gas industry has been doing this since Piper Alpha, and there aren’t many low incident, safer places to work than the North Sea sector in what is globally… Read more »
At Last!!! Great they’re being UK built, especially for H&W NI. Anyone yet know delivery times?
Only that construction is set to start in 2025 with all 3 operational by 2032.
Cadiz?
Francis Drake will be turning in his grave.
Are there any beards to singe?
Its NOT an order, just the selection by the MOD of a preferred supplier. The signing of any contract next year is still subject to Ministerial/Cabinet and Treasury approval. There is a very serious risk that just 2 rather than 3 ships will be ordered given the announcement yesterday that rather than increasing substantially in real terms, the UK defence budget now won’t even match inflation. Hunt isn’t going to allow the MOD to reopen a large unfunded “Black Hole” in its equipment budget.
Any scratchings around for any English shipyards?