Belgium has chosen the F-35 over Typhoon to replace its F-16 jet, according to national news agency Belga, beating Typhoon.

This news makes Belgium the 12th country to buy the jet.

Earlier in the year, the UK submitted its final Typhoon offer to Belgium on behalf of itself and partner companies. The proposal included 34 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, underpinned by the offer of a “deep strategic, defence and industrial partnership” between the Governments of Belgium and the UK.

Previously, Sweden announced it would not be entering Saab’s Gripen E for Belgium’s fighter contest, the country’s defence ministry announced in July last year. Boeing also withdrew its Super Hornet deal.

In January this year the US preemptively approved a sale of 34 F-35 jets to Belgium.

The deal is worth  $6.53 billion and is also expected include electronic warfare system and the Autonomic Logistics Information System.

The proposed foreign military sale includes the aircraft, four spare engines and various communication and navigation systems “to provide Belgium with a credible defense capability to deter aggression in the region and ensure interoperability with U.S. forces,” according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency statement.

According to Lockheed:

“The F-35 offers unprecedented technology and supportability across the spectrum of military operations and ensures interoperability with key Belgian allies in a continued shared commitment to defense and peacekeeping activities. There are currently more than 200 F-35s flying across the world, and as the fleet continues to expand, the price will continue to decrease – the current life-cycle operating costs are already comparable to today’s 4th Generation fighters.”

The Belgian defence ministry has yet to officially confirm the news.

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Chris
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Chris

(Chris H) – Two main options for Belgium: Typhoon or F-35. Why would they buy Typhoon when the partnership building them has been fractured by the German Airbus going with the French Dassault?

from a Uk perspective given the FAL building Belgian Typhoons would likely not have been in the UK the value to the UK is less than it could have been. At least we know we will directly benefit from any F-35 orders and by how much. Even if they are built at Italy’s FAL.

Lee H
Guest
Lee H

Hi Chris
It’s a shame if this is true. The real product for sale wasn’t the aircraft but the intelligence sharing and capability we were offering – hopefully if F-35 is the chosen platform HMG and the Belgian government can come to some agreement with regards to the added bonus package that was on offer if Typhoon was chosen.

BB85
Guest
BB85

If Italy is trying to reduce its order of 90 F35 they should lose their FAL for Europe status. When the UK is negotiating it’s follow on order of 48+ plus F35b FAL should then be included in the negotiation.

Mark Latchford
Guest
Mark Latchford

The industrial benefit of of being in both the Typoon & F35 camps – we win either way!

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

Agree we win either way but was hoping for typhoon so that the consortium can keep developing the airframe.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

No real surprise to anyone albeit the French will be sore about it for a while.

Josh
Guest
Josh

The French shouldn’t have tried a run around on the competition by offering a completely separate tender.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

Indeed, not the first time the French have messed up a bid by trying to work around the system. They screwed up the chance to sell Rafale to Morroco for similar reasons.

John Fedup
Guest
John Fedup

The French tried the run a round on Canada’s CSC tender resulting in a similar outcome

BB85
Guest
BB85

It works successfully with governments who make decisions via brown envilopes.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

The Dutch are buying F35 so it’s no surprise the Belgians will do the same.

DaSaint
Guest

Excellent point.

Lusty
Guest
Lusty

Hope they don’t destroy any of them on the ground with Cannon fire…

Frank62
Guest
Frank62

Why’s that? What have I missed?

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

You have missed the story of the Belgian ground crew firing an F16 cannon by mistake and destroying another F16 in the process… Baffling but true.

Frank62
Guest
Frank62

Thanks, I’d not heard.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) – The Yanks did a better job in July ’67 on board the USS Forrestal when a Phantom misfired a rocket at a Skyhawk ….all hell broke loose and nearly sank the ship.

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

I would have thought Gripen E would have more than covered all their requirements ….. At s fraction of the F35 purchase price and vastly lower through life costs.

Still, who was it who said that fighters have four main characteristics:

Thrust
Lift
Drag
And Politics…..!

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Their military is practically merged with the Dutch now. With the latter buying F35 then can share costs and facilities etc.

There would have been time when it would have been nice for the Dutch to have gone F35b and joined us with our carrier venture. They seem more interested now in being with the Germans.

Frank62
Guest
Frank62

A question is are they serious about forming an EU army, which would distract from NATO IMO. In which case more commonality of kit would be important; not that it isn’t in NATO either.

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

The eventual creation of a unified European Armed forces has been in process for years.

It’s an absolutely inevitable conclusion of the European project.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

In terms of having a body to deal with industrial war then yes. I think national identity of the forces will be kept for a long time before gradually disappearing. It is a stage on from NATO really, or a stage on from where is now, in that during 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s most nations did a little of everything then in the 80’s and through the Post Cold War period this accelerated to nation’s dropping capabilities because others did them; that would be Europe as obviously America practically does everything with one or two odd exceptions. Even we do… Read more »

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

There are a few Federalists within the EU parliament who would like it but they are an extreme minority. There little wider support within the EU parliament and it would flounder as an exercise against the Council of Ministers. As it stands there is little chance of an EU army but that won’t stop I’ll informed kippers banging on about it.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

Phone auto correct sigh…ill informed before the pedants jump on it

dadsarmy
Guest
dadsarmy

You’re absolutely right about that Fedaykin.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) dadsarmy – Well he was dead right until he got to ” but that won’t stop I’ll informed kippers banging on about it” which was totally unnecessary and is there solely to goad others into an argument. Whether or not it happens will happily be none of my concern but you can see why people believe there will be an EU army / defence force / whatever. Its the only ‘trade block’ that feels the need to pass laws on everyone and have multiple Presidents, a Commission, a Parliament, a flag, an anthem, a currency and open borders.… Read more »

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

I felt it was necessary to point out Chris, you regularly tell us how it is important to express ones opinion…

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) fedaykin – You just cannot leave it alone can you? It was in no way ‘necessary’ at all. Your ‘Kipper’ comment was irrelevant to the discussion, the article we are discussing and your wider valid point about some alleged EU Army with which I actually agreed! But you failed to see that apparently. Instead you nitpick and raise a false argument to suit your confirmation bias

You threw it in for one reason only: To cause an irrelevant argument in which I will not engage as its a pointless pissing contest.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

Any you took the bite Chris…

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) So you now admit you are just baiting me on here? I hope the Moderators are taking note. Personal abuse and baiting is NOT what this forum is about Mr Fedaykin. Its about people who share an interest (and maybe a love) of matters military and our country and like to share opinions and ideas. You and a certain other feel the need to make it something entirely different with personal put downs, abuse and sarcasm because you think it makes you look clever. Well it doesn’t Old Son it makes you look quite the opposite. You will… Read more »

Geoff
Guest
Geoff

Sir Sydney Camm said that about the TSR2, but it only got the first three right…

Martin
Guest
Martin

We should really celebrate our participation in F35 program more than we do. With a 15% work share the UK benefits significantly from this order.

Having substantial work shares in three out of four western fighters was a smart way for BAE and the country to go. Meanwhile the French are scrapping around trying to sell just 36 planes to India.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

For a long while India was the only game in town when it came to trying to sell the Rafale, it was just too prestigious a contest with a massive potential pay off not to contest. Most of the current issues relate to the utter Kafkaesque nature of Indian defence procurement and inability to rationalise their combat fleet. Add to that the realisation that replacing large numbers of fairly crude Mig-21, Mig-23 and Mig-27 with a modern complex twin engine fighter might entail a significant increase in costs when it comes to their annual operating budget. This all while local… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Guest
Nigel Collins

I wonder if having a Tranche 4 demonstrator or two with thrust vectoring (which has been available since 2010) conformal fuel tanks and root extensions would help to boost future sales showing the customer its true capabilities?

Boeing is updating the F-15/18 which could make future sales even harder.

https://www.businessinsider.com/air-force-upgrading-the-f-15-to-keep-its-edge-on-chinese-fighter-jets-2017-9?IR=T

BB85
Guest
BB85

I don’t see thrust vectoring playing a major roll in its overall performance or export success. Captor-E should have been included as standard on the Tranche 3 run, we definitely lost exports due to its snail pace development (mainly because partner countries did not want to contribute towards it). A follow on order from the Saudi it now looking less likely which could suggest the UK/Germany will either order an additional tranche or the production line will shut once current orders are delivered.

expat
Guest
expat

I doubt the mods you describe would give the Eurofighter any edge in a competition with the F35. The F35 has won every competition its enter into, the cost is coming down to making it harder for the Typhoon to compete. The middle east and Asia there are still opportunities where the F35 will not be entered. Saudi is probably the next big sale which will keep production going, although recent events cast a shadow over a possible deal. I don’t think the Tranche 4 is the way to go, we need a Typhoon NG. Need to re-use as much… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) expat – I think I was replaying at the same time as you but I believe my comments below also answer your comments as well. I think Typhoon is now dead. Long live Tempest.

expat
Guest
expat

My thinking is more dual track and not instead of. Secure some sales of Typhoon NG (revenue for UK plc), RAF also have something more advance whilst Tempest ramps up, this would be a better option than ordering the now mature Typhoon. Also we’d never sell Tempest to some nations until its mature ie old tech so we could offer Typhoon NG. Keeps the prod lines open until Tempest goes into full production which as we’ve seen with F35 can take more time than anticipated. Worst still end up with costly life extensions of out dated airframes. A lot of… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Nigel – I think we have to understand that the Typhoon is now at the end of its development and no further orders will be coming through after those already in place (and the Saudi last 48 are now at risk) as the partner nations have divided off into two distinct and competing camps: Airbus / Dassault building the new ‘Eurofighter’ and BAE / Leonardo / RR / MBDA building Tempest. The RAF have what it needs to replace Tornado and can now integrate Typhoon with our F-35s. A lethal combination. No other country drove development on the… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) – D’UH! Placed the ‘5th Gen manufacturing knowledge’ in the wrong list – should have been with the LM connection. Apologies.

Nigel Collins
Guest
Nigel Collins

Time to increase spending on Tempest and get a demonstrator in the air as soon as possible, 2035 is a long way off with plenty of possible conflicts on the horizon.

Testing the airframe using currently available parts from Typhoon might be possible?

Nigel Collins
Guest
Nigel Collins

potential conflicts sorry!

BB85
Guest
BB85

I think i saw a timeline somewhere to deliver Tempest in 2035, its actually a lot shorter than you would think. The first technology demonstrators would need to be taking off within 7 years or something. The thing is does the UK have the budget to develop a UCAV like Taranis and Tempest or will it need to focus on one? I know they mentioned Tempest would have an unmanned capability which makes me think Taranis will be shelved long term as well.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

We really are the worst and most naughty of all European states aren’t we? 🙂

It just makes you wonder when you hear about all this guff that we are so dependent on the EU and we can’t do anything on our own how so many of us can be so deluded. It makes you wonder how much we have lost. Imagine if all those jobs had been here. It really upsets and angers me.

Yet the French always go their own way.

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

Well the French have lost out here… The UK is on the winners side. The French have no part in the F-35 the UK does.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Yes.

In a way I am envious of Rafale. Sometimes looking back one does wonder why after the Falklands why somebody here in the UK in the military or industry or the government thought, ‘Ooh we have winner in Harrier, let’s start to build the next one!’ The French would have done so. Still we have all our figures in all the right pies so we can’t complain. But it would be nice to have something seen as ours and not something shared. Good stuff. 🙂

Helions
Guest
Helions

I’m with Chris on this. All Gen 4 /4.5 fighters are The “Flying” Dead. They just don’t know it yet. With rapidly increasing world tensions, all the major tier one militaries are pushing to develop and field not just Gen 5 aircraft but pushing ahead much more quickly on the Gen 6. The U.S. certainly is. My position is, it may seem contrary to what I just posted above, the Gen 4.5 aircraft can still complement the Gen 5 and should be bought in greater numbers to save money and to fill capabilities not requiring the Gen 5’s. The buys… Read more »

Paul.P
Guest
Paul.P

The Italians are good partners.

pkcasimir
Guest
pkcasimir

Tempest is a pipe dream. The UK has neither the funds to finance it, the will, nor the home grown technology. Just because you build a mock-up with no engines, radar, electronics, weapons, etc. and issue a press release fantasizing about the directed energy and hypersonic weapons it will carry doesn’t mean a thing. That roll-out of the Tempest mock-up was worthy of Iran and its newest super weapon.

Daveyb
Guest
Daveyb

Mate, are you serious? The UK has been at the forefront of aeronautics and avionic systems development for years and you are doing this country and all those working in R&D a massive disservice. 1. Rolls Royce have developed the EJ2xx series engine were it will remain competitive for at least another 10 years. They have not only redesigned the 1st/2nd stage compressor but also the engine core. This gives the engine a variable bypass ratio, introducing cold air past the IP stage which all helps to raise the safe working temperature of the engine thus making more thrust. 2.… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Davey. If you read his comments over many, many months as I have you can see he has serious issues with the UK. Always putting down and highlighting deficiencies.

I don’t put Pkcasimir in the same park as other well known trolls on this site but he clearly has issues.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) pkcasimir – I never really bought into the idea that the Russians are trolling media in the UK. But I have to admit you just persuaded me they are …. We have every system and capability we need to fly, power, arm, operate and defend a Tempest right now. So our focus is on the airframe and as we have proven with Typhoon, MAGMA and Taranis we can push boundaries there as well as anyone and our history proves it. Indeed we always have led in aerospace we just didn’t have the internal market. And we have the… Read more »

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

Can’t disagree with those impressive developments. It’s more about overall costs. Britain and Italy, with a few middle Eastern customers, are not going to buy enough aircraft to make it viable to invest sufficient resource to make tempest credible. How do I know because typhoon shows what will happen. Except this time round it’ll be 300 rather than 600 as no German, Spanish or Austrian buy. Not enough investment to max the tech to make it compete with the us offer and certainly not at a comparable price.

BB85
Guest
BB85

Japan, Sweden and Turkey are large potential partners that BAe has built strong ties with. There are more countries to team up with in the world than France and Germany.

Paul.P
Guest
Paul.P

Indeed. In Europe the Italians, the Dutch and the Swedes for example. They have skills and unlike the French are more likely to accept the UK as technical leader or peer partner in hitech defence projects. The Italians are struggling to persuade the French to merge their warship shipbuilding for example. Opportunity for the UK?

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Anthony D – I would have a great deal of sympathy for your argument if the whole thing needed 600 unit sales. But it doesn’t. Tempest, unlike Typhoon and even Rafale, is not starting from a blank piece of paper with 4 different so called ‘partners’ pulling 5 different ways which a) increases costs and b) adds time which = more costs all of which has to be recouped in sales. With Tempest we have just us and the Italians The key differentiator is that we already have everything that goes into and on an airframe. So we… Read more »

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Sheez that is just wrong and shows a distinct lack of knowledge on the UK defence industry or technological prowess.
Tempest can and should be built in the UK. Easy for some of our aerospace engineers.
Just needs governmental backing and we could be onto a winner- like the type 26 design.

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

My last post was in reply to the individual who stated the UK has neither the know- how or funds to build tempest

MrSatyre
Guest
MrSatyre

“Belgium has chosen the F-35 stealth over Typhoon to replace its F-16 jet, according to national news agency Belga, beating Typhoon.”

Brought to you by the Dept. of Redundancy Dept.

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

Im really not sure the comments above are realistic. Typhoon took decades and cost billions. We had time and many partners to fund it. Neither of which is the case with regard to tempest. And this time we’re taking about sixth Gen technology integrated with drones, so even more complicated and expensive than last time! Not to mention even latest tranche typhoon havent maximised current known technological capability. So why not just run the production on with incremental upgrades, evolution target revolution. Most conflict is not high intensity peer on peer, so we’ll be developing something too expensive to use… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Anthony D – I have answered all these points above in response to your earlier similar comment above. However I should point out that it was because we had so called partners that delayed the project, played games with funding and then reduced their own orders that made the Typhoon so expensive which then required export orders to recoup those costs. Tempest is a different project completely. But i do agree it does in any case show off our credentials to the wider world. Not sure we want US Incorporated involved other than as contracted suppliers. If they… Read more »

JOHN
Guest
JOHN

Well there we have it, now offical, the end of european aircraft manufactoring. Sure France and Germany talk about next gen aircraft but they couldn’t agree before Typhoon was built, also us Brits never give our lads and lasses the best equipment so tempest is a none starter. Every government since 1945 has effectively destroyed British military production by continuing to by American, the europeans are now doing the same. Long live Lockhead and Boeing

Anthony D
Guest
Anthony D

World leading kit:
Astute
Type 26 frigates
Queen Elizabeth Class carriers
Typhoon
Merlin

Forces are better equipped today than they ever have been but at the cost of mass and resilience.

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

David, You are Talking out your Bottom here, Chris H Is Owning you on this. He was after all, a Legend In his Time.

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

David Anthony Simpson, (Anthony D ? ) are you Serious ? no seriously old man, Are you ? Have you no Idea nor recollection of our once mighty superior Royal Navy ? , Sorry old man but I’m properly disillusioned by your latest non factual and somewhat Wide of the mark Comments here. Christ Bud, You really do post some silly stuff on here and a few other places too , maybe you ought to step away from your Laptop and let Chris H get on with running this site Eh ?

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Agreed. I still think more balance is needed to create some mass.

J
Guest
J

3 astutes
No T26
1 QEC not combat ready
149 typhoon
30(?) Merlin
All great kit but either not enough or doesn’t exist yet. Sad that buying more of this excellent British equipment would actually benefit the UK economy yet the government would rather cut it’s losses and the military regardless of the investment already made. Need leadership in this country that actually cares about it for a change

BB5
Guest
BB5

Whats with the negativity, the remaining Trafalgar sub’s are still vastly more capable to anything deployed outside of the USA.
The upgrades to T23 frigates mean they are still up there with the most advanced ASW frigates anywhere.
HMS Queen Elizabeth is not that far from being ready for deployment.
I agree we seem to be short on helicopters, I was not a fan of the army being forced to select the wild cat but I’m guessing it was necessary to justify the cost of developing it if its is to have continued export success.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) J – I can see you are a glass half empty person. Anthony D was making the simple yet valid point to another negative post that we are CAPABLE of building all this new kit and indeed are doing so. I am never sure why some folks feel the need to run down everything we do and paint the negative over the positive. But to set some balance: Astute: 3 in service, 1 fitting out and 3 under construction. All funded Type 26: Brand new design sold to the RN, RAN and RCN with first under construction QEC:… Read more »

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

The only thing I can’t make my mind up about with Tempest, is should/could we build a ‘jump jet’ version. Compromises were made in the air frames for F35 a and c to accommodate b’s fan, could/should the same be done for Tempest? The Italians and Japanese both operate light flat tops now so it would feed into their needs.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) – purely my opinion of course but no I don’t think we will have a STOVL Tempest for the very reasons you stated about the F-35. We already have that capability and it will be good for 20+ years. Tempest is, to me anyway, what I was calling ‘Typhoon II’ before Tempest was announced – all the sensor, helmet, combat, defence, weapons and avionics systems from Typhoon consolidated into a new airframe. Nothing wrong with the latest Typhoon that a new airframe can’t improve.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

The carriers are supposedly going to have a 50 year service life so perhaps there might be a chance we could do another Harrier and sell a VSTOL Tempest to the US? But that’s so far in the future who knows where we will be? 🙂

Helions
Guest
Helions

The French apparently believe the Franco German fighter will be built…

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-military/france-begins-deliberations-on-new-aircraft-carrier-idUSKCN1MX1CV

Cheers.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Helions – If I could slightly misquote those immortal words of one Mandy Rice-Davies (Google the Profumo Affair) “Well they would say that, wouldn’t they?” I think all this confirms is that what ever is produced will have a naval version to repolace the Rafale M which is now rather long in the tooth although little used. It will be interesting to see if the new carrier will have EMALS / EMCATS though. The really daft thing is the French were ‘partners’ in the QE carrier project (and why we spent so much with French firms) but they,… Read more »

Rudeboy
Guest
Rudeboy

The French were never partners in the QE Programme. This keeps getting repeated but is wholly untrue. The French and British briefly investigated a joint carrier programme in the 90’s. Those discussions then came to naught. The UK then went on to launch CVF. Thales became the ‘Lead’ in the design, but this is Thales UK in Bristol and there are strict ‘Chinese Walls’ in place with all IP UK owned and controlled. The French later had a change of heart and paid the UK £100m, non-refundable, to study the design with the intention of building PA.2. The UK made… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Rudeboy – I guess you have a different definition of what a ‘partner’ is. I think when two countries work together to formulate a common carrier design (adaptable for CATOBAR or STOVL) over a 12 month period and both countries pay similar amounts to achieve that design then to me that is a partnership. “The United Kingdom and France have reached an agreement on cooperation concerning the future design of aircraft carriers.” “We have taken a very significant step forward on the future carrier project in agreeing how the UK will proceed on cooperation with France” “There are… Read more »

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Cheers Helions- interesting article.
What is the bet the French new carrier (2030+) will look very much like QE class, albeit with a bit of a refresh and upgrade?
France has a glorious history of stealing ideas from others, relabelling them as French then selling the on.
Rafale vs Eurofighter anyone?
They were already involved in the QE carrier design at the earliest stages before pulling out of the PA2 requirement a few years in having spent £300+ million on design already.

Helions
Guest
Helions

Chris, I’m familiar with the Profumo Affair and understand she died about a year ago. Rather shocking how she had aged… Had quite a run there for a while though! I think I posted a link a few days ago about the French working with the USN to acquire the EMALS – which we’ve also offered to the IN. I understand that the bugs (mostly related to software) are supposed to be fixed during the GRF’s current availability (hope so). Thales is the primary systems firm on this I see. As you stated, they should have gone with a concurrent… Read more »

Helions
Guest
Helions
Helions
Guest
Helions
Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Helions – an even stronger argument for us to keep away from future multi partner arrangements like Typhoon. Just takes one to be awkward and everyone suffers although of course in this case it is the Germans hurting the UK more than anyone else as they would have been built here. I am sure this has absolutely nothing to do with EU matters and the UK negotiations of course. Not debating the ins and outs of a murder here just an observation on the difficulties of partnerships. And multiply that by 10 when involved with the French…. Of… Read more »

BB85
Guest
BB85

Didn’t Germany just sell a load of Leopard 2 7A’s to Qatar. I can’t stand the hypocrisy of it all. You either deal with hard line dictators or you don’t. Pretending to be outraged or care about human rights just because the media runs a bad new story doesn’t full anyone.
At least Trump is honest and says they safe guard 500,000 American jobs so I’m not going to do anything.

expat
Guest
expat

Well Japan has a stated aim to develop an new fighter to replace the F2

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/23482/Japan_to_Replace_F_2_Fighter_Aircraft_with_Locally_made_Jet#.W9Ca3UxFw2w

There’s no issue with partnerships, all part could also be produced domestically

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) expat – I can’t agree on partnerships on a major military project. we in the Uk have seen too many delayed, become more than we wanted and cost far more than if we had done it ourselves. Now having said that I have no issue with the countries licence building kit we have developed and designed like the Aussies and Canadians are doing with Type 26. Even Kawasaki built their Merlins under licence. My main issue with Japan as a partner in Tempest is they are just an extension of the US military programme and are fundamentally dependent… Read more »

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

I’m with you again on this Sir, Britain Can do It all without Partners and more Importantly, without our Seriously short sighted current Government Incumbents. Roll on Brexit, Roll on our new World Market, Roll on The Next British Empire. ( sorry, I might have got a bit carried away there for a bit, but actually, Why the hell not ? ). oh and Chris sir, The French were only ever Interested In one new Carrier. making a total of 3 not 4. just wanted to Clarify that, please be gentle on me.

Steve
Guest
Steve

Considering the self built items are massively expensive and under specced, I don’t get the desire to prop up our defense industry. Combine that with the main export customers generally being questionable regimes, maybe it’s time to stop wasting UK tax money on propping up our industry with small orders. Add to that that the export orders always arrive after the initial British orders are complete and so the UK military gets no benefit outside a few top bass getting directorships. Finally add the tiny amount of money that flows back to the UK tax payer for these orders and… Read more »

Helions
Guest
Helions

Chris,

you might want to take a look at the actual size and capability of the JSDF. Just a rundown of the JMSDF ship roster is pretty impressive and they are slated to increase their fleet by 25% in the next decade. Their first CATOBAR carriers should be on the ways by the end of the of that period as well. They are far from dependent on the ships of the 7th Fleet. It actually kind of the other way around (I hate to say)…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Force_ships

Cheers!

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) helions – Historically and politically they are totally in step with the USA. Look at their purchase record of aircraft since WWII. And good as their Navy may be in 10 / 15 years time it will never then and cannot (like we cannot) compare now with the 7th Fleet let alone the implied might of the US Navy. The 7th is the representation of something far bigger. When Boeing went ‘global sourcing’ for the 787 and new 777 where did they go? To Japan and yet arguably the UK is the best producer of advanced material commercial… Read more »

Steve
Guest
Steve

Japan is currently going through what Europe did 50 years ago. Japan was the cutting edge technology and manufacturing country of the world, but as it’s middle class expended, it couldn’t keep up with prices from other less advanced countries on manufacturing prices, and whilst it was good with electronics, it wasn’t so good not so good with coding, and so lost out to China and the US. Japan has lost its cutting edge and it’s esomony is suffering for it. At the same time,.it sees China as this big threat and is effectively entering into a cold war with… Read more »

Helions
Guest
Helions

Good morning Chris, As usual you make good points here, Japan does tend to stay close to the U.S. in terms of policy, weapons, and technology buys. The JSDF purchases U.S. weaponry most the time when imported technology is needed. Especially in naval and air systems. As you pointed out, the JMSDF is closely integrated with the USN (not just with 7th Fleet) and their combat suite procurement in particular reflects that. To understand this, you have to take a look at the history of post-war Japan. Remember, the country was run by the U.S. Military until the early 50’s… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Fascinating post.

Thank you for that rather long piece! I’ve only read some of it so far!

Helions
Guest
Helions

You’re too polite Danielle, let’s face it, I was just plain LONG winded today 😀 It’s pouring rain here and I’ve nothing else to do so – HEY!

Cheers!

Helions
Guest
Helions

Terribly sorry misspelling your name Daniele. My auto suggest took over there…

Cheers

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Helions is right of course. The JMSDF is expanding and increasing in size and capability. although they really have to- they are on China’s doorstep and China is likely to have PLAN with a force of 400+ warships by 2035 – they are building frigates, destroyers and submarines flat out to contest the local regional territorial claims against any US and allied response. I think Japan, South Korea, US and Australia + New Zealand should be rather worried and therefore by default probably all of NATO and its allies. A PLAN with 400+ first rate warships with cheap weapons loads… Read more »

P tattersall
Guest
P tattersall

The F35 going to be huge sales . After all the trolls knocking the plane saying it will never be built or fly .. It makes me laugh how the tin pot trolls know more than world class aviation experts and proven plane builders they need to stop watching RT and spudnik fake news .

expat
Guest
expat

Slightly o/t

Just read that Hawk production will end next year. I find it astounding SAAB/Boeing we’re able to produce a new aircraft in a short space of time and win the TX. If you’d follow the TX progress there were several reports that Boeing relied heavily on SAAB design teams. Both companies developed the aircraft form there own pockets. Yet BAe which has sold over 1000 Hawks has ploughed nothing back into RnD of a new airframe and the UK next Jet trainer will be foreign. The T2 revamp was mostly paid for by the UK government.

CliveH
Guest
CliveH

Its official!

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-aerospace-belgium/belgium-picks-lockheeds-f-35-over-eurofighter-on-price-idUKKCN1MZ1QW?il=0

On price too! Cool. Agree with earlier posters that its good to have feet in both projects.

expat
Guest
expat

Janes put an article up on Tempest. I think most agree the Typhoon now has very limited sales opportunities. Belgium selected it on price which was always touted as negative for the f35. UKs biggest problem now is stretching fast jet production into the 2030’s when Tempest can be produced in meaningful numbers. There’s orders for 620 aircraft with over 500 delivered, but the UK doesn’t produce all of these and to keep lines open in the UK were going to need more than the 48 Saudi jets. I just can’t see where these orders will come from.

https://www.janes.com/article/84058/raf-looks-to-typhoon-lightning-tempest-force-in-2030s

Nigel Collins
Guest
Nigel Collins

The Tempest combat aircraft: there’s a storm coming.

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/tempest-combat-aircraft/