The government’s Defence Industrial Strategy, published earlier this month, promises to make defence an engine for growth. But it doesn’t address the real issues. Britain’s armed forces are perilously weak.
The Royal Navy has only a handful of frigates and destroyers, with submarines often tied up for lack of crew. The RAF has shrunk from nearly 850 combat aircraft in the late 1980s to just over 100 today. The Army can barely field 73,000 regulars, short of tanks, artillery and modern air defence.
This article is the opinion of the authors Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Lieutenant Colonel Stuart Crawford and not necessarily that of the UK Defence Journal. If you would like to submit your own article on this topic or any other, please see our submission guidelines.
Meanwhile, Russia is resurgent, America distracted, and Europe divided. In any future fight, our troops will go into battle with what’s on the shelves now, not what’s been promised years ahead. Lieutenant Colonel Stuart Crawford writes:
“Last week saw the Defence and Security Equipment International (DSEI) trade fair take place in London. It is one of the biggest arms industry exhibitions in the world, and there was as much hyperbole and wishful thinking on display as there was military hardware in the speeches and statements delivered by the many defence firms in attendance.
After all the glitzy announcements and self-congratulatory backslapping, however, the reality is that very little of real substance came out of it, at least as far as Britain is concerned.
The actualité is this; after decades of underfunding under the so-called “peace dividend” following the end of the Cold War, the UK’s services are woefully understrength and underequipped to face the realpolitik of the new international order. Russia is resurgent, NATO divided, and America increasingly focused on China.
Our Navy has too few ships, the RAF too few aircraft, and the Army too few soldiers and not enough armour, artillery, or ground based air defences. Frankly, the forces are not fit for purpose. So the armed forces are indeed in dire straits. But hand in hand with a rearming of the forces must come a rapid ramping up of the UK’s defence industrial base”
Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee continues in agreement,
“That is where the Defence Industrial Strategy (DIS) comes in. Published earlier this month, its ambition is to “make defence an engine for growth.” Recently the Trade Body ADS highlighted the contribution the sector already makes: £25.4 billion in exports, 330,000 jobs, and productivity growth of almost 30% over the last decade.
It is clear to all that strategy alone is not enough. The Ministry of Defence must reform its labyrinthine procurement system to give small and medium-sized enterprises the same chances as the big primes. SMEs are the workhorses of the supply chain, yet they too often find the barriers to entry insurmountable.
I know this first-hand as the Chair of a small but innovative Northern Ireland engineering company, Boyce Precision Engineering (BPE). Companies like BPE are part of the vital supply chain feeding into the larger defence primes. They see clearly the potential for growth and jobs if procurement is simplified and opportunities genuinely opened to SMEs. But they also know the risks of government failing to deliver on its commitments: missed opportunities and talented young people discouraged from staying in the sector.
Equally important is spreading the benefits of defence investment across all regions of the UK. Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the English regions all have capabilities to offer. Ministers should also act as global champions for our companies, promoting British defence as the gold standard and boosting exports.
Defence spending is not a luxury but the first duty of the government. Vague promises of higher budgets years from now are worthless when threats are already at the gate. We must invest now, both in our armed forces and in the industry that sustains them — or face humiliation later.”
Baroness Foster is a former First Minister of Northern Ireland and Chair of Intertrade UK. Lt Col Stuart Crawford is a defence analyst and former army officer.
In truth, we need to be on a war footing, and the British people need to be told in plain English of the dangers. Once the nation recognises the need for defence, the sooner we can get the effort started with urgency. Too many political issues are getting in the way of the need for action. The Army desperately needs modernisation, and current plans are too small in scope and too slow in terms of delivery.
People seem to be more interested in protest marching about a war in the Middle-East that has nothing to do with us.
Given the current obsession with beating ourselves up about our “Colonial” past and historic “Expeditionary” brutalities, the biggest battle ahead is reestablishing some patriotism/national pride in the general population.
It has everything to do with us when we are sending surveillance flights over, and also have defence contracts with Israel.
The reason people aren’t supportive of defence is because it is still stained from our past. What we need is an open and honest conversation regarding the defence failures of the past and the dangers we face. Otherwise people will not be on board to potentially be fooled by the government again.
Everything ????
All our fault Eh?
UK=bad, Global Ummah=good …is that where your loyalty really sits?
No, it has nothing to do with us, we are not belligerents in that conflict
UK exports represent less than 1% of Israel’s total defense imports
You’re strawmanning because your argument is based on false emotions. Your logic should then also be applied to Ukraine.
And your arguments are driven by a deeply indoctrinated and toxic belief system, which has a history of conflict with every other culture it comes into contact with.
Your fake “humanitarian concern” for Gazans is just a thinly veiled campaign to drive all Jewish people out of the Middle East. The two-state solution will never happen. Your religious hubris would never allow it.
Sounds like you’ve lost the plot a bit there
Really stained aren’t we🙄
Defending Europe in two world wars,maintaining a standing force in West Germany for god knows how many years for the purpose of defending said Europeans!
Please point out where exactly our forces are/were stained?
How about following America into the Middle East where 1 million Iraqis have been killed. How about Afghanistan where 600 troops were killed and the Taliban are in charge. How about Palestine, where Israel has shown for a fact it can prevent collateral like it did in Iran but still chooses to bomb civilians
Now then was that our forces stained or the politicians who sent them?
We have NO involvement in Palistine despite some claims from nob heads who probably have no clue where it is!
Didn’t say it was our forces. Read my comments properly before you call anyone a nob
Righto defence implies our armed forces🙄 I didn’t actually call you a nob,but if the cap fits👍
In which branch of the services did you serve in Uzair to gain this insight.
1) I never claimed to be a soldier
2) me being or not being doesn’t disprove my point
3) someone’s experience in the forces doesn’t automatically change the facts
So you pontificate on something you have no experience. Your so called facts are based on what?
Reading others depictions. If you have not got the moral fibre to wear a uniform please have the decency to respect those that have. Arm chair warriors like you are two a penny.
This site is open to everyone whether they have served or not, the owner and site creator is a Civvy. There is nothing wrong in voicing an opinion here, it’s what the site owners encourage.
None of the issues he brought up require much inside military insight. Matter of fact a civilian I’d more qualified to talk about how general public views the military. Not saying he is necessarily correct, but the idea that you need to have served to speak at all on defence is childish. Matter if fact your entire argument is emotionally charged and childish.
Uzair, and for the loyalty and serve to the US Empire, UK got only? 10% tariffs, while India ( trys very hard to be western) gets 50%. Sure is expensive to be friends with DJT. Let us not quibble, after all, the dough boys saved the English from Adolf…..at least for last century. Exactly who are our enemies?… The incompetent, unprepared Russian military or the untested, not scary PLA? The old Orange senior can not bully or intimidate Russia, China, India so, he fights with his friends and allies who are tied to American security and economy, so, the old demented king can not lose. Meanwhile UK and Europe pays a back breaking price – – – as S Korea now complains they will be broken with Trump’s demands.
The dough boys saved England from Adolf?
In what universe do you live in? US soldiers landed in North Africa *AFTER* Monty broke the back of the Africa Korps at El Alamein, and loooong after the RAF had ended any hope of Hitler invading the British Isles. And if you are talking about WW1, where the term Doughboy actually comes from, the Americans where given the secondary Argonne sector in 1918, when they finally arrived, while the British and French demolished the Germans to the North.
K Mc. Your comment that the dough boys (US Army, specifically Infantry) saved England is ridiculous. Did the dough boys arrive in England in September 1939 when war was declared after the invasion of Poland to commence training with the British Army? or later when Adolf was extending his invasion by seizing most of western and northern Europe? or did they come to the aid of our BEF in France when it was under immense pressure from the Germans in the 2 weeks from the start of the Battle of France 10th-25th May 1940? or during our time of our greatest (existential) threat through 10th July-31st Oct 1940 when the Battle of Britain raged and German invasion plans were well advanced (Fuhrer Directive No 16 released on 16th July 1940 for amphibious invasion of England triggered much preparatory activity by their navy and army).
Did the doughboys join the European war (to save England) when the USSR was invaded and so a second front was created from 22nd June 1941, making life harder for the Germans in the west?
No. Because the US had chosen not to declare war on Germany as a consequence of any of the above and so join the European war as a friend and ally.
So the USA declared war on Japan on 8 December 1941, the day after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Even then the US did not declare war on Japan’s allies, Germany & Italy, in order to join the European war, and send the doughboys (and the USN and USAAF) to ‘save England’. The US only joined the European war when Germany and Italy declared war on the USA on 11 December 1941. But nothing very substantive happened for some time. The dough boys did not start arriving in England straightaway).
The dough boys finally fought alongside our army on Operation Torch (8–16 November 1942) which sought to clear the German and Italian forces from Morocco and Algeria, thus helping the French whose colonies they were. You could say the dough boys saved French colonies, rather than England.
[The USAAF did not start arriving in England until Jan/Feb 1942, took many months to get set up and then conducted only small-scale raids from mid-42 and only commenced large scale raids in coordination with the RAF from March 1943. This strategic bombing could hardly be considered to be driven by a need to save England as the threat of invasion of England had long since passed, rather it was to inflict major damage on Nazi Germany’s industry, infrastructure, military sites and population centres].
We should be doing far more to help Israel than that.
They are fighting off genocidal hate largely built on the fact that they are an island of human civilization in the most barbarous and backward part of the planet, the heart of religion on earth.
I am ashamed we are so critical of them when compared to us fighting the Nazis from a far safer position the Israelis are fighting like saints.
“most barbarous part of the planet”, Europe drenched itself in poison gas in WW1, had industrial standard death camps and Total city destruction bombing in WW2.
We in Europe wrote the book.
Genocidal hate? The current members of Hamas are those that were children during the intifada. Israel’s actions now have set themselves up for an even worse response in 20 years time.
We should be critical.
Hind rajab. 300 bullets. 300. Justify that.
They used weaponry to target specific IRGC members in apartment buildings but will blow up buildings in Gaza. Justify that.
They bombed Qatar, justify that.
They enacted the Hannibal directive. Justify that.
They cut off water and electricity to 2 million civilians. Justify that.
They flattened entire neighbourhoods with no military targets. Justify that.
They’re hired a biker gang called infidels to hand out aid. Justify that.
They flattened entire neighbourhoods with no military targets. Justify that.
They bulldozed olive groves to starve families. Justify that.
They hold thousands without trial under administrative detention. Justify that.
Do you want me to carry on?
Re point one We murdered 3.5 mil German civilians in WW2. We do not get hate from Germans now because they are no longer Nazis. The Israelis may well get hate but that is not because they have done wrong but because the people will still be Muslims with their usual attitude to anyone standing up to their evil.
Re the other points: Read up on our blockade of Germany in WW1 and 2. Our bombing campaigns. We were far rougher even though we were never facing the genocide that the Israelis face if they lose once.
The Israelis are fighting like saints and the people of Gaza are Fascist pigs that make the German public in WW2 look good by comparison.
“..the people will still be Muslims with their usual attitude to anyone standing up to their evil”. “..the people of Gaza are Fascist pigs…”. Your contributions are abhorrent and bigoted. This site is not appropriate for such views. Nowhere is.
My views are those of anyone who supports human rights looking at Islam with open eyes.
You sound like a multiculturist, a racist, sexist and homophobic apologist for evil.
The people of Gaza elected Hamas when their pubic position was calling for the worldwide extermination of the Jewish people. They did so by a margin that at least equals the one the Nazis got when they were hiding their real intentions. The people of Gaza are many times more evil than those of Nazi Germany, and we killed millions of those from a safer position than Israel is in today.
Comparing WW2 total war to bombing Gaza is a false equivalence. Palestinians are a stateless, occupied people, not a Nazi regime. Also blaming Islam is just bigotry. This conflict is political about land, rights, and occupation. Religion is used as a scapegoat. And is just the Israeli narrative. The IDF doesn’t care if it’s a mosque or church. If there’s innocents in there they will blow it up. Israel has nukes, tanks, jets. Gaza has none. The existential threat runs the other way. Also calling people pigs is textbook dehumanising and is justifying civilian deaths. Seeing as you failed to acknowledge the points I made answer me this one question. Do you support Israel killing innocent civilian when they can be prevented. Yes or no.
Do you remember who started the conflict in gaza?why the hamas bxxxxxds, they are palestinian so dont start bleating like a sheep about injustice and murder like the rest of the dregs ,tell that to the innocent people’s families that were murdered on 7of October 2023,shout free the hostages then but the dregs won’t,
Palestine is a geographic region that was never a sovereign nation.
The fact that the ruined temple of the mount exists under the Al-Asqa mosque proves that Jewish people populated that region first.
“Justify Hind Rahab.” I can’t. If the reports are accurate, there is no justification.
“They used weaponry to target specific IRGC members in apartment buildings but will blow up buildings in Gaza. Justify that.” Much of the house demolition in Gaza is because the underground is littered with tunnels from which Hamas prosecute their war. If you collapse tunnels under a house, the house will be destroyed. Israel isn’t going to leave the tunnels intact to give Hamas a head start on the next war.
“They bombed Qatar, justify that.” I think Israel was in the wrong, and I don’t believe the Israeli justifications that it was a revenge attack following the Ramot bus shootings. Nevertheless the targets were clearly Hamas leadership, not just random bombing of Qatar. The Hamas leadership are propped up and paid for by money from Qatar. Qatar don’t get to play at being concilliators and negotiators at the same time as covertly funding one side of the war.
“Justify the Hannibal Directive.” That’s pretty easy. I’ll just state it first in case people don’t know it. If it’s necessary to retrieve hostages, shoot at the kidnappers, even at the danger of hurting one of the hostages. If kidnappers won’t stop a car, shoot at the abductors, again even if it might mean hurting a hostage. I think that’s a lot easier to justify than kidnapping people in the first place, holding them for years, and eventually returning a corpse, don’t you? If you need me to justify it, once the kidnappers get away with the hostages, the chances of the hostages dying is high. Better to chance hitting them accidentally when you can rush them to hospital.
“They cut off water and electricity to 2 million civilians. Justify that.” I can’t. I can think of several possible justifications, but I’ve no idea which if any are true. Hamas started a war. That might have something to do with the fact that Israel won’t provide fuel for the only Gazan power station. Why the Egyptians didn’t step up might have had something to do Hamas’s support for the Muslim brotherhood. It’s all moot now as most Gazan civilians have effectively become prisoners of war in their own country.
“They flattened entire neighbourhoods with no military targets. Justify that.” There are almost no neighbourhoods without the ubiquitous tunnels under them. The density of tunnels under Gaza is around the same as the road network in the UK. How many places in Gaza city do you think are without tunnels?
“They’re hired a biker gang called infidels to hand out aid. Justify that.” Does the handing out of aid need a justification?
“They bulldozed olive groves to starve families. Justify that.” This allegedly happened in the West Bank at the hands of Israeli settler civilians, not the government. There can be no justification and I believe those settlers are getting a free ride because of the nature of the Government. I hope they end up having to justify their actions in court, but I can’t see it with the current make up of the Israeli Parliament.
“They hold thousands without trial under administrative detention. Justify that.” There’s a war on, you numbskull! A war! Don’t you understand that shit happens in wars. That the normal rules of democratic government (which doesn’t describe Gaza even in peace time) are put in abeyance.
At the start of 1917 the population of Gaza City was 42,000 rivalling Jerusalem. Two years later it was 15,000; only up again to 17,000 in 1922. What happened? Was it those horrible Israelis? No, it was World War One. War is hell and things happen in war that nobody likes or wants to hold their hand up for. Hamas started this war and could stop it. They won’t because the point of their war isn’t to win, it’s to lose as bloodily and disgustingly as possible on intenational televisions. And they are happy with the way it’s going.
Your turn. Justify the attacks of October 7 two years ago. Justify the rapes and murders videoed and posted on the Internet. Justify the capturing of hostages and the refusal to return them or their corpses except in a choreographed fashion on televison. Justify rocket attacks on Israeli civilian populations. Justify the prosecution of war without distinguishing combatants from civilians, and the use of tunnels under civilian houses, schools and hospitals. Why should you? Why should I? We didn’t start this war.
Been going back and forth all day on this thread so excuse my short responses I appreciate the time you took. Although all wrong 😉
Hind Rajab – you recognise the evil well done. Now look at how deep the evil goes within the Israeli military structure.
Honest question do you believe every building that was destroyed had tunnels? If you recognise there is no excuse for Hind Rajab can you recognise that it is statistically unsound for all them to have tunnels and is instead just proof of Israeli crimes.
The US and Israel?(not 100% sure on Israel) had asked Qatar to host Hamas so that Qatar can be a place where US can engage in diplomacy with Hamas.
We disagree on Hannibal directive no need to go into this further
Well done on recognising the starvation.
Refer to previous point on tunnels.
The biker gang is in its name an anti Islamic organisation. Multiple reports of their atrocities have been shared. Why get an organisation that hates the populace to hand out aid? It’s like getting the nazis to deliver aid in camps.
All settlements are illegal under international law. Some even under Israeli law. But the govt allows this. They recently approved a settlement effectively cutting West Bank in 2. They don’t want peace.
Don’t appreciate the insult. But anyways… the prisoners I am talking about predate Oct 7. Mainly reside in West Bank.
Finally the war didn’t start on Oct 7. Israeli atrocities predate oct7 for decades.
Now onto your statements. I disagree with all. I don’t support hammas or its actions. I think the IDF and Hamas are both evil actors. But I believe seeing the equipment the IDF have available to them they are far worse.
But onto the crux. You recognise the crimes that Israel has committed, so how can we still maintain any form of friendly relationships? If we denounced Israel and stopped any intelligence sharing, I think the appetite for defence spending increases in the U.K. would be greater.
So much for short reponse
“Finally the war didn’t start on Oct 7. Israeli atrocities predate oct7 for decades.”
I’m well aware of how it started, when it started and broadly how it started. My maternal grandparents lived in the Ottoman Empire until the end of the nineteenth century. The fact that I can quote stats on the population of Gaza over 100 years ago to make a point should have clued you in that I have a level of awareness stretching back further than 2023.
You assume that this war is a reaction to Israeli “atrocities”. It isn’t. It’s a reaction to Israel making peace with Arab nations and was calculated to wreck the Saudi rapprochement. It’s a reaction to the fact that they had apparent peace for too long and were out of the world’s headlines. For all your brief acknowledgement you appear blind to the causative actions of the Palestinian Arabs, from the founding of the PLO to the present day. They have been very good at propaganda and disinformation for a long time. I remember doing a deconstruction of a Palestinian propaganda video on Deir Yassin in the mid 1970s. This isn’t my first rodeo.
I understand the Egyptian position of closing off the Gaza border, because the Palestinians have a track record of causing wars in any neighboring Arab country they approach, ever since the 1960s. A level of hatred was understandable, considering Jordan and Egypt were occupiers of the West Bank and Gaza for nearly 20 years and were, along with other Arab nations and Israel, directly responsible for the Nakba.
Nevertheless, that was two and three generations ago. It’s time the Palestinians stopped blaming everybody else for their problems and take responsibility. They have to stop calling themselves refugees from 1948 and settle down with their neighbours. The actions of their leadership continually blight the lives of Palestinian children and grandchildren.
You claim a position of a plague on both their houses, but the words you use and the way you twist my viewpoint suggests otherwise. You didn’t go through each point as I did. You couldn’t even say Hamas were wrong without lumping in Israel in the same paragraph, much less where you thought they were wrong. I am in favour of the Israeli position of declaring war on Hamas. I would hope Britain would do the same if a terrorist group attacked my family in the UK. I don’t “recognize” alleged Israeli crimes as a lump and nor should you. I believe Britain should support Israel a lot more in this war, because if Hamas keep getting handed diplomatic wins by other countries, I believe they will do the same thing again and again. The most constructive thing the international community can do is abolish UNRWA immediately, and hand post-war resettlement to UNHCR.
Hi mate
Keep explaining your views eloquently like you are.
Respect
Justification…….07th October 2023
Thats total rubbish, we supply no offensive weapons to Israel, why would we they have a better defence industry than ours. We aid them in gaza in no way.
Get off your soap box. Total “whataboutism”
And? By selling defensive weapons, If you want to call the f-35 that, to a genocidal country we are legitimatising its actions
If the Arabs overran Israel, would you call what would then happen “genocide”?
Yes any more strawman arguments?
We have what we have. We cannot undo what has been done.
If it was up to me I would just let them get on with it. Religion be damned.
What did the Muslim nations say they were going to do with Jews if they had won previous wars? I believe they were going drive them into the sea and wipe them out.
Now shoe is on the other foot. The west has woken to the woke rubbish.
The uk doesn’t sell f35 to anyone, Lockheed Martin does.
And let’s not forget the people of Gaza supporting Hamas. They celebrated in the streets after female soldiers were taken prisoner, raped and god knows what else.
It’s estimated Palestinian terror groups killed 18000 Jews in total in 2024.
You act like an animal, you support terror then forget religion you got it coming and Israel is gunna make it happen
And yes I would legitimise their actions if wiping out the people that celebrated the death of 1500 men women and children.
Infact I would send them more weapons
We don’t need people in the world that support people like hamas
Hind rajab 300 bullets. 5 year old girl. Justify that
And justify the women Hamas raped and the children they killed.
Bombing of school buses.
Burning of Jewish kebutz school rooms.
They brought this on themselves and now Israel will make sure they and those that support them are wiped out
I’m not advocating for Hamas. I’m advocating for Palestine. So I will happily denounce Hamas terror. Sad thing that you have to strawman instead of condemn
Don’t know what strawman even means.
Support terrorists to run your country and you get what u deserve.
Now Israel is giving them what they deserve for supporting Hamas for 10 years
The Hamas school text books are full of hate for Jew’s, this conflict will likely never end as next generation indoctrinated with hate at school.The shooting of civilians suggests plenty share this same view on both sides despite common ancestors.
F-35 is not a British export
Still stained with the past.. British interventions in other nations are no worse than others and a lot better than some. Looking at the past through modern moral lenses tends to create great hypocrisy.. guess what all our ancestors tended to have some dodgy moral standards.. they were all racist.. Gandy was racist, Churchill was racist, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was racist, infact the only great early 20c who was not racist was Mao.. but then he starved to death 20 million of his own people, hated religion or creative expression and killed anyone that did not agree with him ( in a completely none racist way) on the other hand the Russian Communists like Stalin were complete racists..and mass murdering b?stards.. even the Belgiums were a bunch of psychopath mass murdering racists.. and the French, Germans, Americans, Spanish, various African nations, Japanese.. even god love em the Australians ( total racists).
By all means you preach that to the British public. At end of day they do not want to fund defence as they think it will repeat the mistakes of the past.
My point is we should talk about those mistakes and talk about the threats we currently face
Just to comment on your Australian’s “total racist” comment. There’re some here for sure but on the whole we (I’m a dual citizen) are a pretty decent bunch. Its a very mixed and reasonably tolerant society here with a lot of people having a conscience of the past, present and future and a strong sense of fair play and standing up for the bullied. 🇦🇺 🇬🇧
I think he’s talking about the Australian expansion into the interior when it was still a British colony, where the colonisers didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory.
Hi Quentin, don’t worry the comments were about the historic behaviour of nations. Not individuals within those nations today..so this is about Australian government policy in the early 20c being totally racist..what I was trying to communicate to the “ Britain was evil” person is that historically all nations were essentially the same and had the same views or “other” and did shit things to “others”.
And where are you from buddy ? That’s a fine name you have there . Which shire does that originate from ?
Jason’s a Greek name. If you’re going to be racist at least be intelligent about it
It’s not stained by our past in my consideration – nor for many others. The fact it seems to be for you, should not deter you from wanting to ensure our capability to defend our country has the focus and financial backing it requires . Unfortunately there are many that like to conflate the two in order to justify their beliefs and their actions. Some perhaps from a genuine naivety , and some from a more subversive persuasion.
Agree the government are asleep at the wheel
At least Doris green light T26/31 so we have warships in build and to sell people.
That is a bit of something.
“ with submarines often tied up for lack of crew”
Not really – it is parts and dry dock time that are the issues.
I’m not sure how accurate the facts were in this. I remember the RAF having 500, maybe 600 combat aircraft in the late ‘80s but not 850. Perhaps the author included the Hawk T1s and Jet Provests in those numbers as I don’t see them standing up otherwise
I would be inclined to agree.
He states that RAF has only 100 fast jets. That is not true as there are ca 100 Typhoon, in service, and ~40 F35B in service with another 24 on order and seven or so more to deliver of the current order to bring to 47 [minus 3 for the orange wired] – allowing for the one that went swimming. That said it is far too few. But it will total ~170 front line frames. Really it needs to be well over 200 frames in the 225-250 range for the various taskings that are presented to RAF and FAA.
Yes I thought that too. A rounding error to some but 50% of the stated fast air number!
Correct. In the late 80s I recall Strike Command has about 850 aircraft of all types, in Nos 1, 11, 28,and 38 Group.
RAF Support Command had around 500, and then you had RAF Germany as well.
Fast air around 550 I think.
220 GR1 over long term.
165 F3 F3 ordered.
Jaguar fleet, 60 to 100.
Harrier GR1, GR3, less than 100.
Phantoms, Buccs, last of the Lighnings.
Ahh the old days. They will never come back. Britain is finished.
Hi DM- 31 fast jet combat sqns in the RAF circa late 80. – as I recall? Sad stat of affairs today.
Hi mate.
Too early for me to recall how many Sqns, but something in that region, as I counted around 23 before Labour started wrecking things in 97…
And of course, I meant 18 Group, not 28, blasted phone.
How we look back a Doris and think “Christ” was that idiot clown actually the best politician to come out of early 21st Britain… that is a scary as hell thing to even consider… I’m going to bed now 🤢
It is a bit unbelievable that Doris was actually the one to increase the defence spending trajectory and order the frigates which set up the present renaissance of UK naval shipbuilding. Much helped by BW and justified by the UKR situation.
It is a shame that a clearer trajectory on spending was not set then.
Defence spending as a proportion of national wealth is the most meaningful basis for comparison, because it’s the only measure that corrects for economic growth. Relative spend has declined from ca. 4% of GDP in 1990 to a little over 2% now. It is generally true that each generation of platforms costs roughly double the previous generation in real terms (i.e. after inflation is accounted for). Comparing how many ships or fighter jets we had in the 1980s with how many we have now does not serve as a legitimate illustration of the relative level of resource allocated then and now, and only serves to muddy the waters.
Although a recognised approach Ihink merely using GDP as a metric can in itself muddy the waters. For example what was our GDP in the 90’s and what is it now. How does that equate to what hardware and personnel that would purchase then and now , in order to ‘service’ our defence requirements. We seem to be awfully good at gold plating equipment requirements and promising better kit later (Ares ,F35A, Type 32 ) instead of deciding what we want to be able to do and what we them need for a credible defence force. (Bigger army ? More Challenger? more Typhoon? Extra/enhanced Type 31 G ?) think that’s how we should approach funding WHAT do we need for credible defence and then we fund it…There’s been too much can kicking for 20 plus years and it needs to stop.
That’s the point though- what you could buy in the 90’s for ‘X’ amount of money will not buy you the same now in cash terms. Nor will the manning costs be the same, even in inflation-corrected terms. Nor will the capabilities of a modern platform be that analogous to its older equivalent. But on the other hand we have much more cash after 40 years of growth. Actually working out how cost-inflation versus capability enhancement versus growth in per capita wealth affects overall outcomes is immensely complicated- especially since you have to apply comparable calculations to the capabilities of your adversaries. % spend of GDP is at least a straightforward indicator of how much the government is prioritising resources for national security (or not). Exactly how the money is spent is another debate entirely.
The unpalatable truth is that even if the UK had the money and political will, it is no longer possible to re-arm quickly. Build times for modern front line weapons-ships, jets, armoured vehicles etc. take for years! Even if one wanted to buy off the shelf from foreign sources, where to go? No Western nation has warehouses full of front line fighters or heavily armed escorts, so quickly nowadays means a couple of years not a couple of months or even from WW2, a couple of weeks!!
russia is not resurgent.
Their economy is showing huge cracks, taking unsustainable losses in Ukraine and morale amongst the invaders is low and deteriorating
I would not write them off yet!
Like a typical autocracy, they have a large military industry which is already up to speed for attritional warfare.
Don’t forget North Korea, China, and Iran have their back too
As of the beginning of September 2025 Russia still has:
Main Battle Tanks ~3,300
Armored Vehicles ~11,000
Towed Artillery ~2,000
Self-Propelled Artillery ~1,000–1,300
Rocket Artillery (MLRS) ~1,300
Combat Aircraft ~1,200
Attack Helicopters ~400
Submarines ~83
Surface warships ~40–50
B Of Facts, so what?? All that deadly weapons, yet they struggle mighty
Putin loves to pull off a stunt that makes the West look weak, but stops short of all out war. That is the risk.
The concern is that the Ukraine war will eventually end one way or another, and the Russians will then continue to throw resources at rebuilding their capabilities in order to pose a more overt threat to NATO. Politically- they can get away with spending say, 20% of GDP on the military for quite a few years, as they proved back in the 80s (albeit regime collapse did follow eventually).
From what I saw they’re spending about 40% of GDP on defence and security. They’ve lost about somewhere between 10-20% of oil production due to Ukrainian strikes. Their major offensive on Povkrosk has ben a disaster and they’re losing territory, plus Ukraine have been taking out alot of commanders in that region. Alot of their spending is going into replacing and replensihing troops just to control 20% of Ukraine.
Their government spending has reached a high deficit, their bank leaders aren’t optamistic about their economy and even predict a recession. The main reason why their economy grew, despite heavy sanctions, is heavy government spending on the defence industry. Its created highly skilled jobs yes, but alot of people have left other sectors to move to the industry creating a labor shortage. Inflation is high, people are queuing for fuel in different areas.
This war is unsustainable. However, I think putin knows if he pulls out of Ukraine he could be finished.
Elliot, expert researchers estimate that Russia will be 25% less population by 2050. This will be a disaster for Russia and a less threat for Europe.
How best to inform the public of this dire state of our armed forces? Perhaps publish two or three credible scenarios and detail what we could field and how long it would remain combat-effective given replacement equipment holdings, BCRs, ammunition stocks and supplies.
Sorry, to be a cynic but I don’t think that would really do much. The only people who would really pay attention are the people who already know and are interested in defence matters before hand. I suppose the media could help create a fleeting moment of “something needs to be done” which will last precisely as long as it takes Joe Bloggs to determine that something needs to be done providing that the expense is not a burden on people called Joe Bloggs.
Sky already tried to do that with the Wargame podcast, it barely had any effect!
They tried and it did make some impact in the Westminster Village.
Good to hear.
This is a potential existential crisis. Largely brought on by complacency and the oligarchs benefitting from the peace dividend. If an existential crisis occurs how do these oligarchs and their supine establishment think their lifestyles are going to continue? While fancy modern technical stuff is helpful we are becoming too dependent on it to save paying out on salaries. As we see in Ukraine the ability of one country to just operate ‘meat grinder’ tactics can easily overcome a more advanced defence. This worked for Russia in WW2 and is still working. It does of course mean that the overmatch in personnel can only really be concentrated on narrow fronts but to deter their piecemeal approach it needs manpower and aggressive defence across the whole of opur potential front. While UK may not be directly affected we are the ‘unsinkable aircraft carrier’ and we have to have the manufacturing and resupply capacity to support our allies who will be ones in the steamroller line. And that particularly means having a very strond defence of our critical infrastructure even if not on that front line. And with modern weapons that becomes increasingly blurred. It may be that large scale capital expenditure on a limited number but vulnerable to loss aircraft and especially complex naval ships is spending in the wrong direction. Ultimately it is always boots on the ground that are the deciding and holding factors, and that is sorely lacking. All it takes is our few airfields to be rendered unusable, a few ammunition stores knocked out and the handful of destroyers sunk are we are defenceless. We couldn’t even arm a Dad’s Army (despite some of us being capable). All we can ultimately hope for is that Russia (as the only real local enemy) would not try to cross the English Channel or North Sea and be content with overrunning mainland Europe, but what then?
The problem? Mealy mouthed politicians. Procurement practices and a societal wide negative attitude to overall defence matters.
Look at hoe the anti Semitic left has been given airtime, look at the enemy within. With political will things can get done, an economy on a war footing can soon produce.
“Quickly” ….
IMHO it’s going to take 10 years or more.
Bigger armed forces go hand in hand with faster procurement, industrial capacity expansion, Better recruitment processes, new infrastructure for maintenance …etc.
I see why Putin made his move on Ukraine when he did. he saw the bigger picture
How will that work when we are so reliant on America for capabilities ??
Ultimately it’s down to more money now.
One of the more interesting (to me) panels in DSEI was one looking at alternative sources of finance, with Gen. Patrick Sanders, who manage to attract a few watchers in uniform, but mostly this was a bankers, a fund controller and an MP with a banking background watched by people in suits. I understood about one sentence in two. The gist was that to bring in more private money the laws and government policy neesds to be changed. Bankers have to follow Treasury rules too and so lending is an issue. The rules for lending into dual use are different to those lending into military, so a dual use company might not be able to finance a military only product.
Even though it mostly went over my head (I understand network stacks not capital stacks), it’s clearly an important area where the Treasury needs to loosen the shackles. A plan to do this was floated by Alex Baker of the Defence Select Committee and Luke Charetrs of the Public Accounts Committe called Rewiring Britain’s Defence Finances. Available online and I’ve promised myself I will get around to reading it one day.
Ultimately, governments fund Defence, but if private capital can boost the UK Defence Industry (and dual use sector), it will be good for growth and innovation as well as maybe working its way through to the military’s front line.
For at least two decades, I have been rambling on, about the poor state of UK defence, but Rachel has trashed the economy, Rishi maxed out the UK credit card over Covid & energy rebates, so massive spending cuts are needed across the entire public sector. I wish it were not true, but sadly “we are where we are”.
Thing is that it is the slowness of even modest increases and forward contracts that allow for capacity to be built up.
I think Rachel is currently doing balance transfers to another credit card and putting the rest on Klarna and Clearpay, it will only last so long before we cant borrow anymore.
James, the Government borrowing (PSBR) for August hit a 5-year high – about £18bn. The economy is in its death throes. The budget will have to be horrendous as Rachel from Accounts does not have the grip to cut spending, and doesn’t realise that her policies have stymied growth, not boosted it.
Words, Arguments, Anger, Point scoring, Insults, Brand new accounts.
Love this site !
Full of bloody halfwits here
It’s become the Palestine thread. I’m staying out of that crap, this is a UK military and defence site.
Fancy a pint down the pub ? Or how about a Curry ?
Defo!
I’d be up for that but I’m back in Canada now, dang, I should of arranged to get together with you a couple of weeks ago!
You are always a voice of reason Halfwit, thank you!
A “Voice of reason” ha, thanks, I’ll add that to the many other “compliments” received on here !
Can yo get a decent Curry in Canadashire ?
Oh yes, there is some very good curry here. In Western Canada anyway (would that be a sub-shire?).
Try Kumis if you have in UK, alternative to a pint
Few different spelling but Kumis most common i think
Morning Ulya, it’s funny you should turn up, I was just reading the exchanges with the new “Member” Uzair and was thinking you “two” could almost be related.
Had no Idea what Kumis was so I looked it up, hmmm Horse milk made into an alcoholic drink, sounds delightful. Is there a Horse bi product equivelent of a decent Curry ?
Now I am Greek? If I want to use different name I would choose Juliana.
I agree with most of Uzair point of view, but replies are predictable and I would not waste my time with people here, it is a important topic. More fun to tease when its economic, sanctions etc and I do like the hero’s.
I have never seen horse curry and it does not sound nice. Yes I do eat horse, not much in Russia, more when I go to Kazakhstan
Greek ? I thought Uzair sounded more Arabic/Islamic.
Anyway, I had you down as an ethnic minority, perhaps Turkish Kurd ?
Purely out of Interest, what sort of stuff do you do when in Kazakhstan ? apart from hunt and eat horses.
Unfortunate but inevitable. When someone posts an opinion on non-defence politics it often becomes “well I either keep quiet or I might look like my silence signals agreement.” :/
Well said DM.
Halfwit, at least there is no or very little MAGA type hype and religiosity. They feverishly believe there will be a Rapture Sept 24 and will be taken up. The non believers will rot on earth. So, maybe I can move onto their nice mansions.
I often read articles on the Ukdefencejournal, but rarely comment as I don’t have that much detailed knowledge on most of the subjects, but it rarely fails to amaze me that after a few pertinent posts, someone posts an off topic subject, (like Israel or the Second World War) and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. This thread was supposed to be about the dire straits of the British Armed Forces – you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that as a country we don’t have enough of anything to allow the UK to defend against a serious hostile attack and unless and until the (any) Government accepts that and starts to do something about it, we will remain at risk.
Good first comment then! I agree.
I agree. I rarely post (and when I do I sometimes put my foot in my mouth, sorry ’bout that) and have a limited knowledge as well. It does seem like things go off topic quicker than they used to. I wish we had a similar site for Canada, we are in worse shape than the UK.
Good Evening,
Yes indeed we should be on a war footing! At latest since Putins Special Operation in the Ukraine. In fact probably since the Little Green men took over Crimea!
The UK has as ever it seems reacted far to slowly. Only time will tell if we have another Dunkirk on our hands or not!
Oh one reminder HMG! Putin dioes not respect any sporting rules, he will do anything to win! With or without the Geneva Convention!
GB politicians on the whole ( together?) do something before Its to late! Out forces Need immediate support !
That meins Billions and conscription if necessary! Its time to stand up and face Russias Putin without Delay!
Good Evening,
Yes indeed we should be on a war footing! At latest since Putins Special Operation in the Ukraine. In fact probably since the Little Green men took over Crimea!
The UK has as ever it seems reacted far too slowly. Only time will tell if we have another Dunkirk on our hands or not!
Oh one reminder HMG! Putin dioes not respect any sporting rules, he will do anything to win! With or without the Geneva Convention!
GB politicians on the whole ( together?) should do something before Its to late! Our forces Need immediate support !
That means Billions to be spornt and conscription if necessary! Its time to stand up and face Russias Putin without Delay!
This government have no interest in defence.
I hope all the people who were saying Labour will do what the Tories didn’t see it now, and we had some right old rows/debates here on the Tories bad Vs Labour the saviours rubbish.
I was sceptical before they came in and nothing I’ve seen has changed my mind.
It was exactly the same from 97 to 2010. Cuts.
The % increases are full of smoke and mirrors with as much shoved in as possible to boost the %
The Conservatives were also guilty of that.
Nothings changed.
I’m not sure I can agree Daniele, they have delivered some new Buzzwords, we’ve seen the rise of 3x lethality, 10x lethality, warfighting/warfighters, world beating, leading edge, at pace, uncrewed systems, plus some others I’ll remember at some point.
We’ve also seen plenty of new agreements, partnerships, studies and an SDR which has reformed the forces to the point the government clearly doesn’t need to order anything else apparently.
On a sensible note though, the Cavs announcement shows the level of government interest, announcing it with no details, plan or timeframe, just a ‘maybe it’ll come at some point’ shows it isn’t serious and just part of a scramble for an announcement at DSEI, another RCH 155 style announcement. Fortunately they can go to their local Patria dealership and buy off the lot and drive away the same day.
I think that after the SDR recomendations, the government took a step back, sighed deeply and said ” Fuck me, where do we start”.
I and most people would generally find that the ‘beginning’ is a good place to start! But, for HMG/treasury/MOD to come to that conclusion, they would probably first have to commission a study or three, then throw in a review or two before coming to the same conclusion.
Deep, We just need MoD to quickly come up with their Defence Command Paper/DWP.
Hi Graham, totally agree with you there fella. Unfortunately I can’t see it happening until after Rachel’s budget, which, is probably going to be pretty grim news too.
This government may have committed to increase defence expenditure but funding that is becoming ever more difficult. Just as in France, an inability to tackle unaffordable and rising welfare costs puts great pressure on other funding. Even if money were available, as Germany has found, it is hard to ramp up defence equipment production quickly. So what to do?
Concentrate on ensuring that the assets we have are actually available. The backlog of SSN maintenance has reduced our effective force to 1 or 2 boats. The T45 PIP upgrade is taking far too long, again reducing a barely adequate fleet of 6 to 1 or 2.
Look to speed up the delivery of already contracted equipment – frigates, MBTs, AFVs.
Stop wasting time and effort trying to specify new platforms that won’t be in service before 2040.
Acknowledge that the 2 carrier decision was an overreach and spend no more money on trying to increase their capabilities.
Speed up the development of long range missiles to give UK an effective counter to the kind of attacks Ukraine is suffering.
Expand GBAD- for the same reason.
Britain and all of Europe need to begin non-voluntary conscription. Where will these people come from? Britain has at least one million illegal immigranrs, all military aged males who need to defend their new home, its people and traditions.
See above people complaining about derailing a defence thread. First Gaza now we’ve got claptrap about every immigrant being a fighting aged male. Give it a rest.
Almost all of the illegal immigrants are fighting aged males. FACT.
To say otherwise is to lie and ignore the truth. Liberal white women are the enemy of anything and everything that’s good in this world. It’s always white liberal women hating their own country.
What else would you expect from a government actively promoting the end of our nation. It’s ‘change’.
Exactly.
So… Returning to the original suggestion ‘Britain needs to re-arm quickly’… Fair frank forthright question… why?
Tom, you are surely not an ostrich. Russia has been engaged in hybrid warfare against the UK for many years, including electoral interference, cyber hacking, assassinations and attempted assassinations, as well as arson attacks on defence industry sites and business premises owned by expat Ukrainians. Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Then Russia started the worst war in Europe since WW2 in Feb 2022. Russia has penetrated the airspace of three NATO countries using drones and fighter aircraft – Poland (several times, the first causing fatalites), Romania and now Estonia. Russia has damaged critical undersea infrastructure. Russia has issued many threats to western European nations, especially those who support Ukraine, including to use nuclear weapons.
Isn’t that enough evidence of Russia’s warlike actions and hostile intent in Europe?
We are a co-founder of NATO and are under remit to deter, defend and protect the Euro-Atlantic region with 31 allies.
No, I am not an ostrich. There will be no war between NATO and Russia. NATO does not have the stomach for a war.
Equally, there will be no war between China and Taiwan.
So, why are countries spending billions on weaponry, when there will be no major conflict between major adversaries?
Graham, too many alliances, too much desire for empire over Asia, Africa was the causes of WW1. Too much Nato expansion towards Russia was the cause of the Ukraine war. Thank goodness for old Trump who is friends with Pootie for godless reasons and forcing Europe to confront their fears all by themselves. France, Germany, UK can not afford an all out war, with anyone. Two world wars and a needless Falklands war had emptied out UK. There is no more East India company, no Hong Kong, no Canada to provide for the British Empire. Europe and UK really must stop squabbling and non productive behaviors and work together. But when the military is in charge, all problems will be solved with war. The M I Complex is very powerful.
K Mc, I had not heard that the cause of WW1 was scrabbling over colonies in Asia and Africa. An interesting theory, and possibly not one taught in schools.
I don’t really buy it that the single reason that Putin invaded Ukraine in Feb 2022 was that he was angered by NATO expansion towards Russia. Firstly timeline doesn’t fit – notable additions to NATO included Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic in 1999, followed by Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia in 2004. So three more countries joining NATO some 23 years before invasion and then 7 countries some 18 years before invasion. Too far back to be a factor, surely?
Secondly – how does Putin’s invasion of Ukraine assuage his annoyance at NATO expansion all those years before, or get one over NATO, or whatever? Surely he can’t really think that NATO, a defensive alliance, posed any real military threat to Mother Russia.
His reasons for invasion are multi-faceted. He has written on the subject.
The Falklands was not a needless war once Argentinian troops landed on those islands. I doubt the costs were eye-watering (given its short duration and the quite small numbers of RAF and Army involved) and must have been comfortably covered by the Treasury’s contingency reserve. The cost of dealing with the pandemic far more recently, really hit our finances.
Certainly I agree that the last thing the UK needs is all-out war together with NATO allies against Russia. Our forces are hollowed out for manpower, equipment, munitions and stores, so we would start from a very bad place. As you say the British economy is in dire straits too. But Putin and Trump are very unpredictable, and the former is militaristic and prepared to accept war with huge costs and penalties. Wars often start due to political machismo, miscalculation and error, rather than by design.
Is Europe and the UK squabbling? What examples do you have? Starmer and Macron have constructed a Coalition of the Willing of at least 26 European countries, and possibly as many as 35. We are getting along quite well.
To re arm, don’t you have order kit?, not some thing you can do by wish full thinking. It really has to be ordered and paid for. That is were i see a hole in the plan. We order nothing but spares and service contracts.
Best comment so far.
Martin, did you hear of any orders being placed at DSEI? I didn’t!
None that i know of, seems we can re arm with out re arming, As long we think positive and have lots of wish full thinking. And its cheaper. Sadly i think a lot of the new defence review and budget increase is spin, and the CDS is in on it.
Thank you
The classic line from the great gem of British movie making springs to mind.
When the residence in India is surrounded by hostile, the civilian turns to the Orovencial governor okayed by Sid James and says “ what will we do” Sid James replied” What will we do, we are British, we will do nothing until it is too late”
Words that I am afraid are too true to be funny.
The biggest problem is not money for weapons it’s people to use them. Britain and being British is a concept that is long gone in favour of mass uncontrolled immigration. No shared culture, no shared identity and nothing to fight for anymore. A flag that is viewed just like a Nazi swastika is viewed. The government has told you all very clearly…Multiculturalism is the priority.
Look. Once you scrap national patriotism and flood once peaceful towns with people who have traditions and customs right out of the 12th century, you’re finished. Nobody is going to leave their recently invaded town to go and fight some distant war. Not when the war is already in your homeland brought to you by your own government. Finished.