The Defence Select Committee recently heard evidence on the operational readiness and challenges of the British Armed Forces.
The session featured discussions with Admiral Sir Ben Key, First Sea Lord, and Rear Admiral Steve Moorhouse, Director Force Generation of the Royal Navy, highlighting the strengths and areas for concern within the Royal Navy.
A significant issue addressed was the decline in readiness levels across the Armed Forces. Committee member Gavin Robinson MP expressed dissatisfaction with the provided data on readiness, stating, “the aggregate data doesn’t give you any sense when it gets down to individual ships, or effective readiness.”
Admiral Sir Ben Key elaborated on the concept of ‘sustainment’ in the context of naval operations. He defined it as “an ability to remain deployed and effective,” which involves considerations like “the onboard holdings that you have; the holdings that you have available in the locality or task group; what your supply chain looks like and whether it can ensure that you remain deployed and readily capable.”
Speaking about the Royal Navy’s current sustainment capabilities, Admiral Key pointed out the advancements with newer ships: “With the new ships—the Type 45s coming through PIP and all the rest of it—we are moving into an increasingly better position.”
He acknowledged the difficulties in maintaining older vessels, praising the naval engineers for their resilience and skill, but also noting that “The old 23s are very demanding ships to maintain, and their supply chains are under a huge amount of pressure.”
Rear Admiral Moorhouse highlighted the Navy’s unique global deployment capabilities, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic, stating, “We are also one of the very few nations in the world that could deploy a carrier task group to the other side of the world in the middle of covid with very little host nation support anywhere, and sustain that for seven months.”
The session also addressed the challenge of a national shortage of engineers, which impacts the Navy’s operational capabilities. Admiral Key remarked, “I think it is down to the fact that the nation is short of engineers.”
thats one carrier only, not enough escorts or planes for the other
That was always the intention. We have two carriers so that one can be deployed whilst the other is in maintenance/training. Deploying two carrier strike groups at the same time has never been the goal.
Indeed. Similar logic applies to the US- 12 carriers implies 4 on operations, 4 in refit and 4 in the training cycle getting ready to relieve the first 4. At the moment they’re down to 11. 5 of these are based on the Pacific coast, one in Japan and the rest in Virginia. They’re too big to go through the Panama Canal, so surging capacity between oceans is not straightforward. This puts a significant strain on the availability of carriers to meet the USN’s existing commitments, which is probably why they were so keen to help the RN regenerate its… Read more »
Exactly – Two-is-one and one-is-none. Something the French have to contend with regularly when CdG is in dock.
As I’m sure you know, the idea of having 2 is that 1 is available all the time. The intention was never for both to be always on tasking. We’ll have enough F35Bs and drones by the end of 2025 to make a very credible CSG. Beyond that, if a second CSG is needed for operations then we have allies. Other European NATO partners have escorts too. The USMC has plenty of F35Bs. Looking further ahead, a second batch of F35Bs will improve matters further, meaning we could put 2 CSGs at sea if needed. All reasons to be positive,… Read more »
and in war one sits about unused? , why can you not admit our navy is too small, RNFA is too small. Spinning it out does not hide that. You do not keep have your assets just in case. There are also not enough RFA ships to support 2. There are not enough ships, personnel or planes.
And likely not that much ammo either. We are a hollowed out nation. Big expensive toys but not the means fully equip them.
I made no mention of the size of our navy. It is too small, SSNs, escorts, and support ships especially. We should be getting more F35B. It seems the lack of SSNs is hitting home, we may see more than 7 when Astute’s successor is built. In the meantime they seem to be investing in research for unmanned assets. FSS is finally happening. The RN could be in better shape, there is a lot of promise but it’s all in the future. Still don’t think it’s as bad as all that now. See recent investments in NSM for example. I’m… Read more »
I am sure we assign both carriers to NATO.
Have you not heard of maintenance and refits?
which are refitting then, seems half the fleet is for ever broken, and not all type 23’s are being upgraded, no LHA are working why the MOD thinks about what to do with them. Its not talking down the Navy its worrying about how run down it is. Just like the Army, yes new kit on order but over due, while the antics road show hobbles on with 40 year old kit. Most of which is short of spares, we want all the great toys but seem to have rob Peter to pay Paul. And order it as slowly as… Read more »
Not broken, you do not seem to understand the system by which most navies maintain their ships (With the possible exception of the PLAN). They check the ship from time to time in order to prevent breaks, which is much cheaper than waiting for the ship to actually break. This takes time and is the reason for most ships becoming unavailable. The rest is actual fixing and upgrades, like the T45 PIP
T23 are knackered! How can you defend the indefensible of 13 years of under-investment in Defence?
More than 13, I’d say all 32 years since the end of the Cold War have seen cuts in defence.
Longer, just consider the size of the fleet before the Falklands. It was the cuts to defence at that time that encouraged the Argentine Junta to believe that the UK wouldn’t be able to defend the islands and if they had been able to wait even another 12 months they could well have been correct.
Politicians on all sides only care about one thing. How do I get elected and then re-elected. None of them care what actually happens to the defence of the realm.
True words 👍
Current bunch don’t even seem to be trying to get re-elected.
I suspect a more accurate assessment would be that they are trying, they are just really bad at it.
Exactly.
That is why T23s are being refitted/replaced.
It is completely blinkered to blame it all on the current useless govt as historically they have all been as bad as each other for decades. If you think for a moment it will get better under the next likely govt you are lining yourself up for a massive disappointment.
This was not about war this was about global deployment….you can never deploy all your ships…as ships aways spend a part of their time in bits in a port. If their is a war then you would see a max effort and if it was not in to many bits they would Try to delay the second carrier….as for to few escorts etc..generally agree.
In war especially a long one then your lucky if one sits in port being unused. In WW2 we could barley maintain a single carrier in the eastern med much less two until 1943. The US had loads more than 3 carriers when it fought at midway. Ships break and need to be fixed. A ship sitting in port is still useful and I might add for much of this year we have had two carriers running around the North Atlantic at the same time. QE class was always designed to be a flexible FOB not a one trick pony… Read more »
We could never deploy two if we wanted to, but yes we have two working at the moment though their air arm is a bare minumine
Yes, it’s the bare minimum to keep the ground crew practised and qualified. The pilot training is largely incidental and for qualifications. I’d argue that for training deployments such as this, the deployed force is a side issue (see the huge range of aircraft that the US have flown from PoW this autumn)
Martin, I am sure you know that the Air Wing for the deployed carrier is growing as LM build more UK F-35Bs.
I’m not sure about the examples you give. The Eastern Med was not a pivotal point in the war, whereas Midway arguably decided the course of WW2. But definitely agree with you, this year has shown where the QEs are at in terms of maintenance and it’s looking hopeful.
The Eastern Med kept Britain in the War. When Italy declared war in June 1940, Britain’s oil supplies were seriously under threat, because they had to come from the ME through a corridor between Libya and Italy OR round Africa. Arguably, without a British Naval victory to keep the SLOCs to the ME open, Britain couldn’t have kept fighting through to 1942 and the US entry to the war. No Britain, no second front against Axis in Europe, no US involvement in Europe, and a very different outcome. Arguably, India would have fallen to the Japanese – and then who… Read more »
It will just get US oil.
We had 85 carriers of all types during WW2.
😳 Never knew that.
It’s amazing to think by the end of WW2 the RN had 75 carriers, which included 10 losses. Granted not all of these were Fleet or even Escort carriers. But it does show what was achieved.
The UK and Canada built around 260 Flower class corvettes between them just before and during the war.
We even transfered a few to the USN in 1942 under Lend Lease. Not to mention the Spitfires, Beaufighters and, if I remember rightly, some tanks… Of course, the vast majority of Lend Lease stuff went the other way.
Cheers CR
One carrier may be undergoing routine maintenance or a full refit. That is why we have two.
Yes one sits unused- or more accurately, it spends its time getting ready to relieve the other one. Whether there’s a war or not a ship can’t just deploy indefinitely.
No point in your argument Martin. I’ve been trying for years saying the same thing but complacency wins every time. The navy is under equipped; we have the smallest air force for decades, way behind most other western nations and the least said about the army the better.
Oh dear, where do I start ! ….. Why is it that (nearly) everyone here seems to offer excuses and talk down to others when the basic fact is that we have so far only managed to embark 8 F35’s…. We are talking about a 25 year project, 6 years in service so far, a glacial F35 purchasing program, Chaotic Pilot training program, a paltry 48 confirmed orders of aircraft (138 initially), Harriers and Carrier capability gap of at least a decade, Tornado all retired, just about 100 Typhoons, Frigates down to 10,maybe 5 available, Destroyers maybe 3 at most,… Read more »
You seem to have made a lot of assumptions about my opinion on all things defence. I’m not talking down to anyone (you just did that), nor am I saying everything is rosy. It isn’t. We do however have many good things going on.
I made no assumptions at all, it’s not all about you.
I think everyone would like to see more frigates, f35s etc. but we are where we are and at least the contracts are signed to get 8 and 5 frigates. If there was a war you would be surprised how many type 23s become available and both aircraft carriers would suddenly have all the f35s available on them which would be nearly the entire fleet. War time focuses the mind and what seems impossible suddenly becomes possible. The Royal Navy has it’s problems and is depleted but can still pack a punch and as discovered recently, on paper a lot… Read more »
Exactly – you can fix the unfixable quite fast when the rule book is thrown out of the window and the cheque book is fully opened.
Nah mate….. long gone are those days.
You are Joking right ? We are currently down to just Ten T23’s with another 4 in no fit state and are you seriously suggesting sending brave souls to sea in decrepit ships ? Deary me mate.
Rubbish .
137 Typhoons and 32 F35Bs now.
3 Tides out of 4 are available so that’s not most.
7 T23s and 3 T45s are available, with a further T23 and T45 bearing completion of refits.
2 SSNs are at sea, with 2 more alongside which are theoretically available.
Fort Vic is available for an unplanned CSG deployment (although will be in a poor state after CSG 25).
Very good availability rates that the RN is achieving, of course everyone wants the RN to be larger.
137 Typhoons in total maybe but the T 1’s are being phased out and a fair chunk of the rest are subject to upgrades and maintenance. 32 F35’s now and it’s taken how many years so far ? Tides, last I heard only one was ready and active, 7 t23’s at a real push. not sure how many T45’s thought it was only two and reports a while back mentioned not one SSN at sea, I know at least one is. Add it all up and you will see just how bad things are. or maybe not.
Just been reading today that the ‘strike’ capability of the F35, Spear 3 missiles, may now only be getting a 6 kg, maybe 10 kg max, warhead. Originally was touted as <100 kg class missile with a 30kg warhead. Now looks like brimstone III with slightly longer legs.
I don’t think the design has changed. There is a possible unpowered glide bomb variant that loses fuel and range in exchange for a larger 30 kg warhead. The powered version was always intended to have a smaller <10 kg warhead.
Cpn, we know how small we’ve become. I still cling to the positives that came make a difference mate. As the size isn’t changing anytime soon.
T1s are leaving service in 2025. 3 Tides are available, 1 was with the CSG, another on FOST and a third was up at Loch Striven not so long ago. The fourth is in refit at CL. Dauntless is in the US, Dragon in the med, Diamond back from CSG 6 days agoDaring is also very near to the end of PIP. Portland, Northumberland, Lancaster and Somerset are at sea. Kent came back from CSG 5 days ago, St Albans has finished LIFEX and is now being crewed, Richmond came back from Norway 3 days ago, Iron Duke arrived back… Read more »
Mark One,
All eye’s should be on our back door, we dont want anyone walking through it telling us ! we would like to review and maybe change your language and culture !
Those Bears that test our responce times kinda make me nervous !
Gov needs to shake a leg and crack on repairing the damage they have done, stop spending on things we dont need eg HS2 and so on.
Think i should have learned Russian and Madarin😉🤣
Ok lets by 75 F35 B at what would be the equivalent of Mk 1 Cortina Mod state. Or buy a few, learn to drive , relearn the basic operating principles with them and then get more at the Sierra Cosworth level.
T31 and T26 production pace and T23/T45 refit/maintenance pace has been improved at the request of MOD (Not widely known or reported).
Allies its all about working with allies.
Not arguing the capability of the aircraft or the operational status of the ships, more the current numbers, Order and planning process, Allies ? it’s all about having to work with them…. Good job the US has a decent number of “Cortina’s” to lend us.
Having just 2 carriers does not guarantee that 1 will always be available, especially as the carriers become older. I think the Navy once stated that we have a 67% chance of 1 carrier being available.
We needed a minimum of three.
Think Albions.
Yes, point proven. Only 2 ships in the Albion class – not enough.
Good luck with that one 😏
Good evening Graham, I’m not sure if this post will be allowed, but I thought you would be interested in reading it along with one or two others on here! “The challenges for the Navy to dispose of the former USS Enterprise have driven the service to stand up a new office to deal both with “The Big E” and the pipeline of Nimitz-class carriers to come. To lead that charge, Breaking Defense has learned the Navy has set up a new office just to focus on the inactivation and disposal of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers. While a spokesman declined to… Read more »
Very interesting. Just one of the many reasons why we were right to opt out of nuclear power for our carriers.
Look at how fast and simply the Invincible class carriers were dismantled.
Agreed.
Agree.. Well said.
So one carrier with two squadrons of 5th Gen aircraft onboard sent to the other side of the world with two AAW destroyers and 3 Frigates and an SSN is not enough for you?
Who else can do that?
i never said not enough its all in one basket
If you’re comparing us to the USN, they have similar numbers of eggs in each basket, they just have more eggs so it doesn’t matter as much of they lose one basket.
thats my point, its all or near nothing
8 UK F35’s, 12 US F35’s, I T45 (Diamond) missed most of the trip.
You are correct Martin as I believe others are! Not ONLY do we not have enough escort ships but you also need a sufficient number that you are prepared to sacrifice, otherwise the whole fleet will be held out of the conflict zone by 300 miles, thus severely limiting all their strategic, tactical and operational ability. Even when (if) we get both Carriers in operation, we will require American Escort Ships so we will be at the behest of them (again).
More escort are needed simply because some will be lost, sunk, damaged etc, the Navy’s just enough policy a bad idea. We have just enough if every ship works which no navy ever has. Same policy has set in for the RAF and Army.
What good is it to be able to send a carrier around the world if you can’t support it? The UK doesn’t have the carrier support group infrastructure the US enjoys.
Well it has access to it, being the USN facilities if needed. Granted, FSS ships are more than a concern at present. The first isn’t expected in service until 2031. Eight years of relying on allies is a long time, but can be done.
Fort Vic’s fate seems uncertain. News is hard to come by, but she is officially available for a CSG if required.
thats us, no AWACS, not enough ships, etc etc, always relying on others because we want nice toys but on the cheap. We want to look good rather than be useful
It’s the biggest navy in Europe fact . And how many others navy’s have nuke subs . Attack subs . Aircraft carriers . Destroyers . And much more . That’s without the Royal Marines . The Royal navy in a very good position compared to Russia who don’t have a blue water fleet . Japan got more surface shops ok but no carriers or nuke subs . Take a totally untested China out of the equation and Mighty US fleet no other navies could give the Royal navy or French navy a fight .
I think you are talking it up a bit, its looks great on paper but its not as it really is, its undermanned. Escorts are along side waiting to be modernized or scrapped. All the 5 working attack subs were in port. Not all the type 45’s work. I carrier group is every thing we have. Then it has no AEW aircraft just a cheap mod on helicopter, There are not enough ciws to equip all the ships at once. Same with Harpoon launchers
No am talking facts not rubbish like you .
deluded, all those points are facts. get over it. And check your facts. Tell me what facts are wrong? and counter with real facts. If you can not counter with real facts then kindly be quite and take your meds.
Do you get sponsored and paid a small sum by the owner of the word “fact”? 😂
I think you get a fee for talking sh..
I think you may be too serious and have limited banter, may I assist? Also are you concerned for Martins feelings as I replied to him!
“There are not enough ciws to equip all the ships at once.”
There are 43 modernised Phalanx units and a large number of 30mm with 40 & 57mm on order for T31
“Same with Harpoon launchers”
Harpoon is being replaced with NSM in the short term 11 sets are on order.
Add to that the Mk41 VKS for T32 and T26…..
A30 system for T45
and Sea Ceptor for all fighting ships.
CIWS 2 per ship, 3 pre carrier and the RFA’s whats on order is no help its not here yet. Are all Type 23’s Sea Ceptor equipt? no they are not.
Err… Yes they are
They replaced Sea Wolf with CAMM
Correct – every single T23 has Sea Ceptor – T45 is getting Sea Ceptor and both T26 and T31 will be fitted with Sea Ceptor.
Sea Ceptor may also be part of the PODS program.
Sea Ceptor is a massive upgrade from Sea Wolf.
Yes with anti ship capability also, so now every vesell can have a point/small area defence capability which can double as a medium anti ship missile as well.
It’s the best weapon we have produced since the 17pounder 😀
Surely you meant the L7 105mm?
As far as I am aware, Phalanx is moved between ships, so ships in long term maintenance or not expected to require them, have their Phalanx removed for those that do need them. Which T23s don’t have Sea Ceptor that you would want to have? The T23 were all fitted with Sea Ceptor with the exception of the three sold to Chile and HMS Monmouth, which was decommissioned early. Of course they don’t all have missiles in place at any one time. If Westminster is out for a number of years and very possibly never coming back into service, would… Read more »
Don’t you know that every other navy packs every VLS full of weapons even when the ships sitting in port or on trading exercises in the attic getting bashed about by waves. 6 million Anti air missile just love this environment and navy’s love throwing them away 😀
Worth noting that CAMM is small enough to be flown to a ship by helicopter and reloaded by hand. Not many VLS weapons can do this.
Good luck with reloading CAAM/Sea Ceptor by Hand – https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1719374079550013640
Correction. Even the Chilean T23s upgraded to Sea Ceptor.
Yes the t23 are sea ceptor equipped and yes there are 43 ciws enough for every destroyer carrier and rfa ship
All the type 23’s ?
Why do you think there aren’t enough ciws?
43 for every ship in not enough if every ship was working, but with what can be depolyed is does for now
All the type 23 have been fitted with sea ceptor for a while.
Also 43 is enough for carriers rfa and t45, the t23 I believe don’t use them so 43 is plenty I think
Learn what Operational Capability is and how Fleet HQ tailor ships and deployments using OC to achieve tasking.
You dont need HMS MASSIVE to do an up-channel escort of one of ivans corvettes
What nice PR reply. How many ships are on duty in UK waters? And mean ships not River class or RFAs. We would struggle to have two war ships in UK waters.
We have a global bluewater navy. Why should major ships be stooging about in UK waters? What for?
On most occasions, several I’d think? The FRE, those working up, port visits, FOST, Thursday war, and so on.
Russia’s surface fleet isn’t going to mass in UK waters. In war they’d barely leave their bastions north of the Kola.
Agreed but i do feel the navy are trying to hide the real in service working amount of ships and yes no navy ever has 100%, but running costs, slow re fit, lack of full crews and delay replacements have hollowed the navy and. A lot on order but not here yet.
Yep. The military is utterly hollowed out.
Yet we still have a good, capable military few can match.
agreed
No, just a tug!
Yes, I agree.
Interestingly Japanese media is bemoaning the lack of surface combatants in their navy and the fact they have to send OPV’s to monitor Chinese fleet exercises.
Same shit everywhere except apparently Russia, Iran, China and North Korea where everything is fine strangely enough.
😀
Japan has 2 or 3 carriers, just calls them destroyers & is in fact converting them to full F35 capable, just smaller than our QE’s. They have an escort fleet we can only dream of. Far east navies can’t afford our dismal complacency, when a rapidly growing PLAN is on their doorstep.
Behave pal and give it a wobble .
behave? wobble? try looking at the Armed forces with out the rose tinted glasses.
“We want to look good rather than be useful”-Must be HMG’s unofficial motto.
agree
Fort Vic is available for an unplanned CSG deployment. Ship specific crew is a bit of an issue but there are plenty of RFA crew that could be pulled off the Bays or Tides.
It’s better this way round than deploying her and having periods when she cannot be deployed at all. Post 2025 after the CSG 25 deployment, the RN will have a serious issue as Fort Vic will be knackered after the deployment.
That’s a little concerning. Six years from 2025 to 2031, when the first new FSS ship comes into service.
Presumably they will try to get her into a state like she’s in now, with 1 more major deployment before decommissioning. Whether that will be possible or not I don’t know, but I don’t hold too much hope.
Hopefully the FSSS build is on time. At least a ship in RN trials but not yet commissioned can be quickly accelerated into service.
I think they are planning to lease a vessel from the USN to cover.
Agree. It is the glacial pace that concerns me.
Cameron needs shooting for cutting Ft George In 2010.
He’s back now so more easily in the firing line!
Did you not read the article?
An 100% sure the first sea Lord knows a bit more than you pal . I watched the report it’s total rubbish what you are saying .
Yet as the article says CSG 21 as able to operate around the world in a pandemic with little friendly port support.
The estimable Forces News YouTube channel has posted a very interesting vid of Ajax being tested last month on Salisbury Plain by the Household Cavalry Regiment
Some very positive comments from officers and men of the Blues and Royals about reliability, capability etc with no injuries being reported. Its well worth a look but due to links being moderated, i’m going to post the link underneath this post
Youtube – Forces News – Rare access to British Army’s monster new battlefield vehicle
Here’s the youtube link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d4CaCfyqio
As I suspected, the youtube link has indeed been moderated, but anybody interested should be able to find it using the info in the first post
Just watched it. All very positive I’d say. Despite all the problems and delays, the army seems to be getting a good piece of kit.
Get it in service and ensure all the issues have indeed been fixed. If so, we could do worse than using the platform as a base for tracked IFV. Commonality of parts etc.
I’d also like to see it have Starstreak/Martlet, Brimstone, and Trophy. At least the recon Ajax versions.
Changing the design halfway through the build as well as moving the assembly from Spain to Wales caused most of the issues with Ajax. Apparently the 40mm cannon tracks and fires ok. Maybe Starstreak etc later, once they get to understand how it works? There’s a lot of optics etc on top of the hull and turret
Hi David, the 40mm CT cannon is fully stabilised for fire on the move. The optics are the same as CR3 will be getting, again, fully stabilised, used in the hunter-killer role. The optics on the hull, front and rear give local awareness all round.
Glad you saw this thread! Calm at last?
Calmish😀
I was a really good video for cementing the Ajax position. Especially (for me) the statement about all four test vehicles returning with no issues.
Hi Jon, yes, some good news for Joe public to enjoy. The soldiers opinions, although a bit stilted, seemed genuine enough.
https://youtu.be/2IRkvtf5h3c?si=AUqaEGOKTTUNsB4C
Video of the build
I know all that tell me something new!
Like what David?
Indeed. See Ian’s comment below, it seems it is already capable of receiving a Kongsberg 153 self defence weapon. Let’s hope that is explored further.
There’s talk of marrying up the RWS with a number of sensors. To give the vehicle some defence from small grenade/mortar/RPG carrying drones.
👍🏻 good to hear
Interesting, unaware of that proposal.
The assembly did not move from Spain to Wales.
Assembly is done in Wales by the Prime Contractor, GDUK. The hulls are built by subcontractors/partners in Spain (ie GD Spain).
[In July 2001 GD bought Santa Bárbara Sistemas, one of the oldest weapons manufacturers in the world. They began making cannons for the Spanish Armada in 1540].
The hulls are built in Trubia by GDELS.
Thanks for the extra details.
Always a pleasure, never a chore.👍
Brimstone ARES has been demo’d as has a Bridge layer.
Interesting. Still think Ajax needs Starstreak if its going to operate alone in the recon role.
I agree totally, even if it’s only shoulder launched. The Primary sight (on top) can be replaced with a Self Defence weapon (Kongsberg 153) which can be made to carry 2 missiles I believe.
That’s something. Although replacing the primary sight isn’t ideal. I’m looking forward to see it in service now.
How much more kit does everyone want to bolt onto Ajax! So far we have from RobW – Starstreak/Martlet, Brimstone, and Trophy. Now Starstreak as well!
Its a recce vehicle. It should move covertly and stealthily – and hopefully not (often) be seen!
It won’t have much time to do recce if it is killing drones, helicopters, fast jets and tanks.
It won’t have any time to do recce if it gets taken out by a drone that it has no defence against. If it gets seen it will most likely be by a drone.
It’s not a tank, but sending it in with no defence seems bonkers. Perhaps it doesn’t need APS, maybe not an ATW, but it does need something to counter the drones that will be seeking it out.
Can the RWS deal with Drones?
I know Davey suggested the cannon might be useful too.
That would depend on MOD buying the Anti-Aerial-Airburst round from CTAi. The RWS with a stabilised 7.62mm and good optics may do the job.
Right.
Yes, well sort of! The MoD has a number of projects on the go for anti-drone protection. It comes under the Land-Ground Based Air Defence (GBAD) counter-small unmanned aircraft system (C-sUAS). But also is part of the Future Armoured Vehicle Survivability (FAVS) program. The first part is giving the infantry soldier some means of protection. This comes in two parts which is a backpack carried active jammer and secondly the SMASH sighting system for individual and section weapons. The second part is for vehicles. From an DE&S statement: “development of a hard-kill capability based on the Protector remote weapon system and a… Read more »
Everyone is super-worried about drones. Should all our vehicles down to the humble land rover have an anti-drone capability then? …or just high value assets? Is Ajax defenceless against drones? Surely a 40mm cannon and a L94A1 7.62mm chain gun (RWS) will do some damage to a slowish flying drone? A drone is an aircraft – very few (almost none) of our vehicles have ever had a purpose-built anti-aircraft capability. Defence against aircraft has been by point and area defence systems operated by the RA. Additionally, vehicle crews take anti-air measures as best they can – cam when static, moving… Read more »
As part of the 6 AD programs ongoing for the Britsh army, a new launch vehicle for HVM is one.
True, but does that mean Ajax shouldn’t have its own defence against drones?
I agree with Graham’s point on recc vehicles.
I also see how easily vehicles are now negated by drones in Ukraine.
So, yes, it should have, in my totally ignorant view, a means to defend itself.
Maybe Starstreak is over the top and best kept for helis?
Recce vehicles do operate alone in British doctrine – they always have done. Our recce vehicles have never before had a dedicated anti-air system. What’s changed? The advent of drones? Then do you advocate all armoured vehs or even all vehicles (including soft-skinned) should have anti-air systems?
Do you think Ajax should have an anti-tank capability as well?
Then we should add APS as well, according to many others.
Where will this all end? Vehicles that are multi-role with over-worked crews – and being unaffordable.
Recce vehicles are meant to see and not to be seen.
Overlearning the lessons from Ukraine is a risk, but it has shown that all vehicles are susceptible to drones. Those that operate alone at the front more so. I also think Ajax should have some ability to prosecute targets if the situation requires. DaveyB has alluded to some kind of APS sensors possible being fitted, although perhaps not a full APS suite. I would assume that the SHORAD programme will provide cover for everything else as and when needed. It will be interesting to see how the vehicle develops in future. Your last point, is that possible in the modern… Read more »
Drones are not new. The British Army fielded its first drone, the Radioplane BTT SD-1 Observor in c.1955, then fielded its replacement, the Canadair CL-89 Midge in 1970, and then Phoenix et al. What has changed is their number and capability. When I served in the army 1975-2009, both on exercise and on operations we were always aware of the air threat (from drones, helos or fast jets) and operated to minimise exposure; recce guys were especially good at this – it was their bread and butter. I would guess that most of the time recce vehicles were stationary, observing… Read more »
Rob, I am sure you know that MoD has decided that the AI is not going to get a tracked IFV (ie WCSP) – Boxer is now having to cover that remit!
I cannot see that recce Ajax should be engaging tanks with ATGW. That is a job for a Tank Destroyer ie successor to CVR(T) STRIKER – it can of course be an Ajax variant, just not the recce wagon. Recce is recce.
Yes, the whole point of Ajax Recc variant is to reccon for the DRSB so Deep Fires can do their thing.
Maybe the armoured cavalry need that Brimstone variant embedded like they had with the Striker Troop.
An Ajax Recce Tp also recces for the armoured regt in the ABCTs as we know.
We need a STRIKER replacement – maybe on ARES. Brimstone is good.
Yes, certainly.
Assume the Recc Pltn in Boxer Bns will only have Boxer going forward? Warrior AI Bns I think had Scimitar.
Certainly the Recce Pl of the Warrior AI Bns had Scimitar as that was the army’s armoured recce vehicle, as did the Recce Tp of the armd regts.
Not sure what the Recce Platoon of a Boxer Bn will have – I had not heard that we had ordered the Boxer CRV recce variant. Has someone in the procurement world blundered? Surely not!
Hi Graham, as you well know, CVR(T) is used for recce. But it is also used for a number of other roles, including force protection etc. Ajax will be no different.
Yes. An additional role for armoured cav is often flank protection.
Does not mean that every recce Ajax needs to have a dedicated anti-tank weapon system though. In my view we need a CVR(T) Striker replacement – could be Brimstone on an ARES platform.
An Ares version fitted with a battery of Brimstone, for me is a no-brainer. Where it can provide both overwatch and an anti-tank role for a heavy brigade (as per Striker), I would also like to see a Boxer version, for the same reasons, but for a manoeuvre group (can’t say Strike Brigade!). Would I like to see a ATGW mounted on the Ajax’s turret, Yes! I think the lessons learned from Ukraine, is that if a target of opportunity presents itself, either offensively or defensively, your vehicle should have the means to attack it. Ukraine has been using their… Read more »
ATGW on Ajax. Certainly the US M3 Bradley CFV operated by Cav carries TOW with an impressive 12 rds (2 of which are in the launcher). Really need to be clear as to whether this is to use the veh as a Tank Destroyer or to provide self-defence against tanks. I favour a seperate veh as a TD (replacement for Striker ie the Ares/Brimstone) so the recce veh concentrates on recce, a task requiring to be stealthy, to see and not be seen. Wanging off missiles rather gives your position away. If ATGW is carried as self-defence, it is worth… Read more »
For the heavy brigade, there must now be a solid case for an Ares carrying Brimstone. If Poland can have it, why can’t we? Again, Boxer would also be another obvious choice, as it could carry more reloads compared to a Supacat. Don’t get me wrong, Ajax should remain as a recce vehicle, though at 40t, can it really be sneaky? In some respects Ares with its dismounts can be sneakier. But I do believe it should have a pair of ATGWs mounted to the turret. Primarily for self-defence. However, it all depends on how the Army see it being… Read more »
We have two heavy brigades in FS, or ‘armoured brigade combat teams’ to use the US-inspired verbiage that the MoD seems to like. There has always been a case for a Tank Destroyer based on a tracked chassis and with 10 or more LR ATGW – which was why we had CVR(T) Striker. Supacat is not the right base vehicle for a TD for an armoured brigade. It needs to be ARES for the armoured bde, not Boxer as that belongs to 1 DSRBCT. Certainly a Boxer TD would work in 1 DSRBCT. I am glad that you agree that… Read more »
I think that’s it, I have always struggled to see that Ajax will be just used for recce given the planned make up of the army. 148 CR3, 600 odd Boxer with little in the way of kinetic effect based on ordered variants. Even now 198 of the 245 Ajax vehicles are described as “recce and strike”. Maybe I’m getting mixed up in terminology.
Rob, I do not follow. AJAX replaces CVR(T) SCIMITAR as the army’s new (armoured) recce vehicle. Other variants in the Ajax family loosely do what the other CVR(T) variants did. The other variants are not providing kinetic effect as that is not their job – eg. ARES is a carrier for specialist small teams as SPARTAN did, ATHENA does C2 as SULTAN did, ATLAS does recovery as SAMSON did. During the development of Ajax, Strike came along as a concept, now largely discredited. In over-simple terms, Strike was combat by a Strike bde using medium weight vehicles. In the two… Read more »
Well shot video.
Now I’m waiting for Peter Wait’s comments about all of the things it can’t do.
😀
Only a matter of time😉
Well, the video did not show it reversing and depite briefly interviewing a gunner next to one, we were not treated to seeing Ajax fire the 40mm gun repeatedly on the move
It wasn’t a live fire exercise. As for reversing, the platform goes backwards at speed! Live fire trials have repeatedly demonstrated the fire on the move capabilities of the AJAX turret systems; M v M, M v S, S v S.
Don’t say anything positive and upset the trolls
Well it seems to work and the chaps interviewed said they liked it lol
There is a good site on YouTube ‘War Machine TV’ worth a visit for British armour on Salisbury plain including Ajax on Exercise
Thank goodness, if they can start the deployment of Ajax sooner that’s at least one army modernisation programme working, with the new fires coming along, there seems to be some traction at last.
Sorry but I have to smile at the fact that you used Ajax and working program in the same sentence.
Lets not stretch it too much just yet shall we..In fact we should never say its working as that just ignores its many failings.
It has been and will forever be a shining example of how not to run a project.
No matter what the end result is.
It’s working, just not well
What bit of Ajax is not working well?
I’d like to know which bits aren’t working well Toby. The troops in the video said that no mechanical faults occurred in the two weeks they were on SPTA.
Sorry I meant the programme, not the vehicle
I’d replied to a comment saying ‘dont use Ajax and working programme in same sentence’
No worries👍
Its reasonable to be cautious – RGT have not finished.
Yes, likely the biggest takeaway if we’re witnessing a coordinated approach to the design & introduction of new equipment. Get one, very challenging, programme working and others SHOULD follow in sequence. Hopefully an example of “lessons will be learnt” finally having a meaning beyond what we’ve come to expect to date.
OT but interesting. A pity that Tpr Smith called it a tank!!
6 Bn REME (my old unit) also gaining experience with the REME variants.
Yes, I noted that. Please.
Maybe he got indoctrinated with the strike bde doctrine when 2 Regiments worth were to be medium armour.
Ajax etc is a very good bit of kit, Challenger 3 will be great, Boxer will be great all when they get here. Not sure no tracked mcv/ifv is a good idea though. And possibly no tracked tube Artillery either. If the Boxer variant idea is chosen to replace AS90.
I watched the committee meeting and, not to make UKDJ a little envious, but Mr. Francios mentioned ‘Navy Lookout’ at least twice 😉
A Great site but only normally one article at a time and a few funny regulars with attitude. 😎
Including a certain Mr Francois it seems! I’m going through the comments section to see which user he is most likely to be! The grumpiest I’d bet.
Also probably not the best informed and unable to listen to or accept reasoned logical arguments !
I’ve figured out who a few of the regulars on here are.
It is also quite amusing that there are two handles that post pro UK/MOD/RN but from the spelling (distinctive) and grammar variations it us very clear there is more than one person involved.
Who, who? Pray tell…
I’ll leave you to work it out!
One article every few days, instead of the 2-4 a day that George is pumping out (Great work, by the way). Articles are longer and more cohesive, but most of the comments are ranters, much lower quality than UKDJ
I can be found on both
More’s the pity
I’ve looked at it, but not regularly, and I don’t comment there.
Other News – NATO have signed a deal to replace their fleet of 14 E3 Sentries with the E7 Wedgetail. Just been announced by Reuters. Seems they are getting 6 and wanting them in service by 2031. Wait and see if that’s the final numbers ordered.
Six to replace 14?
That par for the course. Like 148 CR3 tanks to replace the 386 CR2s that we bought.
Thanks for the update, wondered if/when that decision would occur. Six a/c is a reasonable initial order, hopefully increased in due course. 😊👍
There’s a good in-depth look at the E-3 replacement with the E-7 on The War Zone. It also has a brief look at the Saab contender.
Agreed its dificult to see 6 aircraft as their final buy given the current use of AWACS around NATO countries. One concern will be Boeing’s ability to set up and man a production line able to deliver the USAF and NATO orders for c 20 aircraft which will be further complicated as these will be based on new build airframes.
Hi Davey, question, if NATO can get six why is there a hold up with the three for the UK? Was Boeing waiting for more orders to get things rolling again, maybe?
I believe from what I’ve read is that there is a number of issues. One problem is between Boeing as the design authority for the aircraft, the sub-contractor doing the modifications to the airframe and the MoD’s Military Airworthiness Authority (MAA). Who require evidence of paperwork needed to certify the flight safety risk. All aircraft have a log book, this is where the aircraft’s flight history, servicing history, fault history and modification history is held. From my understanding that one or two of the airframes has either missing history or the sub-contractor has found modifications that have not been recorded… Read more »
Ajax would have been plenty good enough for properly all the world’s armed forces before any improvements it’s always got to be a drama the trolls loved the delays . It’s not long ago trolls out in force claiming no T26 / 31 will ever be built. Same trolls the Navy will never see Astute. The F35 will never fly. The Navy won’t have a anti shop missile until 2028. It’s endless all the trolls fake news and lies and that is fact . Everything Russian a wonder weapon rubbish .
Well, we won’t have a genuine heavyweight anti ship missile until 2030, but NSM will do until then. Astute is the navy’s quietest success story, being pumped out regularly by BAE and replaced with Dreadnought in the programme and, eventually, SSN-AUKUS. Talk about a drumbeat!
Heavyweight Missile ? It’s all about targeting the soft spots . I think a lot on this site think we are going to be one day fighting a supper power with wonder weapons can anybody name that enemy ? It’s certainly not Russia and I would have a good guess China are no better . Only super power USA and we won’t be fighting them . .
NSM is a 350kg missile that travels at 320ms it’s got a titanium penetrator and 120kg blast fragmentation warhead…with a waterline attack profile..it’s not quite as clever as spear 3 is going to be,,,but any warship hit by 19000000 J of kinetic energy followed by a 125kg warhead causing blast fragmentation damage…as well as burning fuel and waterline flooding is going to be a mission kill almost undoubtedly a mobility and probably not going to be saved…if it is it’s out of any war…and that’s just one missile. Even a couple of very small missiles..hitting the right place say a… Read more »
But FC/ASW looks bigger, in line with other countries. NSM is an anti-ship missile, but not heavyweight.
The Anti-Ship variant of FC/ASW still has to conform to the size of the VLS it is launched from ,MK41 and SYLVER A70,so compared to NSM it might not appear much bigger,it will be Supersonic though.
A Spear 3 swarm especially if flying in consort with spear EW would probably be very difficult for any ship to defend against and one small hit on the radar and any escort is mission killed and probably in port for 6 months. A hit on any large Russian ship and it’s probably fires breaking out all over the place.
Indeed, if you think about what a small clever swarming missile means it’s probably more effective in a lot of situations, after all you fire 4 to 8 large missiles against a task group with modern integrated air defences your like not going to succeed..after all the whole point of a ship like a T45 is that it can manage large numbers of targets ( where as a pair of T42s would not have been able to)….so you need to a large saturation attack, that’s what spear offers..and the swarm targeting id individual systems means it’s small bang can easily… Read more »
Spear-3 could quite easily mission kill a carrier like the Ford or Nimitz Class. Like you said it could target specific points on a ship. For example if the missiles targeted the 3 or 4 EMALS rails. How easy are they to repair?
Does that mean the ship can no longer launch aircraft? Could a F18 do a conventional take-off using the full length of the flight deck? If so, what about an armed one?
I’m not sure the navy has an anti shop missile…although I suppose you could get a NSM to take out an Asda or two…and harpoon was known for blowing up the occasional Nordic holiday camp..which is close 😂🤣😂
🙃
Hi Peter, I don’t believe the naysaying is completely wasted. In 2021, during a Defence Committee hearing. The Committee stated: “When ships do get to sea they act like porcupines – well-defended herbivores with limited offensive capabilities”. What offensive capabilities these ships do have will be reduced even further in three years’ time when the Government retires the Harpoon anti-ship missile without a planned replacement.” This statement was brought about because the Navy were planning a gap (capability holiday) between the retirement of Harpoon and its replacement. With the aim of saving some cash. This decision was ripped to bits,… Read more »
The nation is not short of engineers, it is short of groups willing to employ engineers to do engineering. Of my graduating class, ten years on only four of us are actually in engineering roles. Continue to abuse your remaining staff at your peril because they can and ‘will’ leave for greener pastures. The desire to be something more than just a contribution to some hedge fund line does not carry as far as it used to. A few months ago I talked a friend out of leaving the service. Having seen how they have been treated since I should… Read more »
I read earlier today that… First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Ben Key, has admitted that all six British submarines designed to hunt Russian subs were docked simultaneously in September.
That about says it all.
Says it all? It doesn’t begin to cover the 1SL’s point: there were no required operational taskings for submarines that day, so why should it matter that they were not at sea? When told you can’t hunt Russian submarines in the North Atlantic when alongside, Sir Ben asked, if there were no Russian submarines in the North Atlantic, why would we have submarines hunting them? I paraphrase that answer from memory, but to me it was rather telling. It implies a healthy level of confidence in us knowing when Russian subs are in the Atlantic and when they aren’t. Might… Read more »
Lack of engineers… Same thing in France. Lack of technicians as well most likely. These shortages when we have too many useless people like layers, bankers, psychologistes and so on, all owners of bullshit jobs… that’s… a major educational failure. Look at how many engineers you have to invite from other countries…
As someone with one of those bullshit jobs, I have to
objectagree.Sorry, that’s a judgment of the training orientation that the educational system is promoting, not the worthyness of people.
I feel engineers are very important for the common good.
And no discussion was had on RFA availability.
‘I meet the taskings I am asked to provide’ paraphrase.
So a top end AAW Destroyer is appropriate for HIDR, the Russians are screwing our underseas cables – Astutes were alongside, but, we weren’t tasked… ask local towns how things are with no neighbourhood police because the police are intelligence led… how are our interconnectors?
He’s a good pollie in the making.
Time for adding a small diesel sub fleet for the local undersea patrols in the North Sea, Atlantic, European neighbourhood? Plus the UUVs in the works.
‘addressing the challenge of a national shortage of engineers, Admiral Key remarked, “I think it is down to the fact that the nation is short of engineers.” ‘
Amazing insight there.. that the shortage is down to a shortage.. You just made me less intelligent.
Going off the Topic guys seen David Cameron on sky news this morning in Kiev, having a meeting on more Arms AD etc hope he doesn’t get carry away and give them our few Sky Sabre Batteries.Army top brass will be worried knowing is record 😕
Does Cameron have a record of giving away brand-new army kit to another country?
So we can deploy a carrier task group to the other side of the world. Essentially we have spent vast sums to build a capability we hardly need rather than maintain/ replace the assets that we do. Only the injection of the extra £16b by Boris has prevented the situation from being even more dire. And that won’t have full effect for years until the T26/31s are in service.
The royal navy is now a forth rate navy even Italy is now a more of a seapower then Britain is .
Only two navies on the sea with proven worldwide carrier power USA Royal navy