More British weapons are to be sent to Ukraine it has been announced.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson said today that lethal defensive weapons and non-lethal aid would be sent to the country.
🚨 NEWS | British Prime Minister Boris Johnson: "In light of the increasingly threatening behaviour from Russia, the UK will shortly be providing a further package of military support to Ukraine. This will include lethal aid in the form of defensive weapons and non-lethal aid." pic.twitter.com/FbdzLSdvEE
— George Allison (@geoallison) February 23, 2022
The Prime Minister said:
“In light of the increasingly threatening behaviour from Russia, and in line with our previous support, the UK will shortly be providing a further package of military support to Ukraine. This will include lethal aid in the form of defensive weapons and non-lethal aid.”
The UK has already sent anti-tank weapons to the Ukrainian military to help counter Russian forces. Last month, the bulk of Britain’s C-17 transport aircraft fleet was involved in carrying thousands of NLAW anti-armour systems from Britain to Ukraine.
Here's a time-lapse of all of the United Kingdom to #Ukraine weapons airlift flights from the morning of the 17th of January to this very minute on the 19th of January 2022. The UK has no intention of letting Ukraine fall. pic.twitter.com/p4DcNv25mt
— George Allison (@geoallison) January 19, 2022
Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace said last month, “We have taken the decision to supply Ukraine with light, anti-armour defensive weapons systems. A small number of UK personnel will provide early-stage training for a short period of time within the framework of Operation Orbital before returning to the United Kingdom”.
No requirement to increase defence spending then!
“Ukraine crisis: Putin has gone ‘full tonto’ and UK military can ‘kick Russia’s backside’, defence sec says
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace tells military personnel that Vladimir Putin has gone “full tonto” over Ukraine and left himself with “no friends”. The British army “kicked the backside of Tsar Nicholas I in 1853 in Crimea”, he adds, and “can always do it again.”
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-vladimir-putin-highly-likely-to-move-on-kyiv-as-liz-truss-warns-nothing-off-the-table-for-more-sanctions-12549273
Not sure if your comment about the need to increase the defence budget is sarcastic… sorry 😂
I don’t think he dot the reaction he was hoping for, and rightly so.
I think it will come in the next spending review.
An emergency IR is justified in light of recent Ukraine events.
Would it really be necessary for emergency actions, though?
If they doubled the defence budget today it would still be a few years before we saw any significant increase in ships, tanks, additional Typhoons etc.
About the only thing we could expand on relatively quickly would be the infantry.
Even getting the Infantry numbers up would be at least a year to train a man! 6 months basic, then of to role specific, Machine guns, Mortars, snipers, patrols, comms, pioneers, MT driving etc etc all courses which ensure a soldier is a fully fledged Infanteer. And that’s all the required courses and skills for a Battalion to operate, and doesn’t include much time served to practice, train and her experience. Gone are the days of quick fixes mate, even in the Infantry.
Her? Bloody predictive txt, should say get!
Spot on.
Capita takes a year to recruit a soldier. Combat Infantrymans course at Catterick is 6 months with a 2 further weeks for Foot Guards and Paras.
The Rifles also do an extra 2 weeks, at the Rifles Training Team in Chepstow. It’s mostly extra marksmanship (obviously) and WHTs but also all of the MATTs to ensure they get to Bn fully deployable.
Thanks Bob, I would have thought a 6 month CIC would have covered WHTs and MATTs.
Matts level 2 on WHT on Rifle only (I may be out of date). So the new Rfn do WHT on rifle only. The Riflemen’s cadre gets them through WHT on all Pl Weapons and an enhanced range package with each weapon system (not NLAW or UGL though)
True, which is an argument for NOT cutting spending, since it takes so long to undo damage.
The action of an immediate increase in defense spending, sends a clear message of intent; and could be one of the many levers to pull to ramp up pressure and so resolve. Just my thoughts 🙂
Yes. This! 3% immediately.
Only 3%?
We were spending 5% at the height of the Cold War – and that didn’t even get hot.
If the Ukrainians really needed more weaponry and ammuntition, they could quietly send a purchasing team to Peshawar and buy some of the billions of pounds worth of advanced American weaponry abandoned in Afghan. Black Hawk helicopters, the latest MANPADS, tons of small arms, transport…..The Talibs are short of money and would probably sell them anything they wanted.
There were no MANPADS supplied to the Afghan’s…for rather obvious reasons. Same with modern ATGM…
Thanks, I stand corrected. Here is a list of what was abondoned tho 2,000 Armored Vehicles Including Humvees and MRAPs 75,989 Total Vehicles: FMTV, M35, Ford Rangers, Ford F350, Ford Vans, Toyota Pickups, Armored Security Vehicles etc. 45 UH-60 Blackhawk Helicopters 50 MD530G Scout Attack Helicopters ScanEagle Military Drones 30 Military Version Cessnas 4 C-130s 29 Brazilian made A-29 Super Tucano Ground Attack Aircraft Heavy Equipment, Including Bull Dozers, Backhoes, Dump Trucks, Excavators =208+ Aircraft Total At least 600,000+ Small arms M16, M249 SAWs, M24 Sniper Systems, 50 Calibers, 1,394 M203 Grenade Launchers, M134 Mini Gun, 20mm Gatling Guns and… Read more »
Is this not what has been supplied to the Afghan forces since 2001 rather than what was left behind by allied forces. How much of that is actually in a useful condition will be up for debate.
Ukraine mostly uses soviet ammo sizes. I imagine they will try to get whatever they need from various sources.
As for the U.K. deliveries they would be mad to say we don’t want free stuff delivered to us.
ammoland.com/2021/12/full-list-of-american-weapons-left-afghanistan/
This was what was abandoned. Over $83 billion worth. Lets hope the provos don’t get their hands on any of it….
I would go for the howitzers and shells, the 4 x C-130 and the blackhawks…
Thats a very anti democrat/joe Biden website. This is a list of all the weapons that had been supplied/sold to the Afghan government for use by the Afghan military services. This is not stuff that could of then been rounded back up and shipped out before the withdrawal. Remember the Afghan government was not meant to collapse and would of needed this to keep functioning. Also a lot of this kit was used for a long time and no doubt broke, destroyed etc etc. Your better to look for websites that appear impartial and just deal in facts. Then check… Read more »
Nonsense.
Are we supplying it for free, or selling it to them?
Sleepy Joe promised all that stuff to the Taliban.
Well Joe did not congratulate Putin like Trumpski just did on a radio interview , does that compute to you ? or just go straight over your head as I’m sure it did lol.
What nonsensical rhetoric … has HMS Diamond left Portsmouth yet?
Nope.
Well then I guess that ship at least might have a problem “kicking the backside of even Tsar Nicholas I” even if he was still alive.
Navylookout is keeping tabs on her .
At least BW is getting worked up a bit! Lol. And does HMS Diamond have its Harpoons fitted plus 1-2 Wildcats?!
Maybe so, but HMG/Treasury/MOD have practised “Full Tonto” slashing of our armed forces so Putin doesn’t feel sufficiently deterred from naked aggression. Far more effective than a pre-emptive strike getting us to cut our own throats.
It always comes back to bite you in the arse at some point with nothing set to change much before the end of this decade and in insufficient numbers no doubt.
Dude Britain isn’t going to do a thing to stop Putin besides putting some more meaningless sanctions that do NOTHING. With leftist Biden in charge this is the final days of Ukraine. What a freaking disaster.
I hope you’re seriously wrong Dan. Don’t right off Ukraine that easily even if their president is an ex-comedian! On the US side Tony Blinken looks like he could make a good President post Biden. I wonder if Trump will ring his mate Putin anytime? You got to feel for the everyday population. The bloody arrogance of Putin is staggering.
Hopefully, this will proceed very quickly now and we will our increase defence spending to match any potential threat from Russia.
“The US State Department has approved the possible Foreign Military Sale of M1A2 SEP main battle tanks (MBTs) and related equipment worth USD6 billion to Poland, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on its website on 17 February.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/land-forces/latest/us-approves-possible-m1a2-sep-sale-to-poland
The whole world is entering very uncertain times, Russia has to be punished in every way possible in the hope that the population who are not all mad putin fans can get him out. I doubt they can though.
I think putin is underestimating the Ukraine resolve to make this difficult and guerrilla warfare will make casualties as long a Russia stays.
It’s a very sad day for all.
The sight of helicopters flying in was not good. I had hoped Ukraine forces would of had manpads in every town and city.
I’m worried about all the likely nasties that Putin might bring out of his cupboard. I wish the West could shoot these forces down for them. Yes, we hope that the Ukrainian forces have still got some Stingers left and their own Shorad/SAM as well as plenty ATMs. A lot of SAM could have been knocked out already and so quickly. UK MOD take note – don’t be lax in our own SAM department. Naval/Air/Army bases/key infrastructure etc should always have ready and adequate protection. I hope the Russian people can truly see what a monster their leader is and… Read more »
I think the uk has the right idea. SAM has to be really mobile. Man portable is essential as well. A fixed or known Sam location is as good as dead In the Ukraine conflict. It’s very hard to hit every incoming weapon at a fixed location. Russia used guided weapons and anti radiation missiles
Just one little factoid .. Putin has invaded other countries under three different US Presidents now – on each occasion a few harsh words and nothing else resulted. The exception was Trump, Putin invaded no-body under his watch.
He directly contributed to this conflict by inflating a monster’s ego and then congratulated him on invading Ukraine. Trump is part of the problem mate and no certainly no friend to either the US military or NATO.
Personally, I’d like to see less politicking BTL here and more insight on the strategic and logistical way out of this mess.
Regardless of all the hot air and bluster, I believe Russia will eventually be allowed to swallow up much of Ukraine. Most European leaders probably don’t really want to get involved and there has been is much investment by the west in Russia in recent years, so the financial men in grey suits will have a say. Just look at Boris Johnson’s limp sanctions response. Ukraine could end up going the way Czechoslovakia did in 1938/39, bit by bit, until – hey it’s all gone, how did that happen? The alternative? War, is that really an option for most European… Read more »
What! Putin won’t stop at Ukraine, 2014 the Crimea remember. If the west does not stand up now it will be a whole lot worse.
Hi Mark, Unfortunately, the situation is more like 1938 (Czechoslovakia) than 1936 (Rhineland). In the latter the German Army was significantly expanded but in 1936 it was still around 100,000 mark so the UK and France could have stood up to Hilter then. We should have been more robust in 2014, now we are faced with a reasonably well equipped and large Russian force having failed to take note of the earlier warning. As Albion points out NATO is in effect too dependent on the US and as Bidden has pointed out US and Russian troops shooting at each other… Read more »
I’m in no way suggesting we start shooting at each other. We reinforce the Baltics NATO members and that has to be the line drawn. Cyber and centric warfare. Let’s not take our eye off China, Iran and North Korea.
Yes Mark F, if we put our own troops into the NATO countries that we can then it throws the ball back to Putin. Put simply, it shows that we care enough to put our own guys on the line (and Putin knows we value our people more than he values his) then we will HAVE to do something as at home it will matter if ‘our’ people get attacked. A British/French/German/Italian… and most importantly US presence in the Baltic states and Poland etc (assuming these countries are cool with it) needn’t be to large but it will say to… Read more »
I’m afraid that if Russia/China/Iran/N Korea act in concery the free world’s defences & military could be overwhelmed. The Asians woke up ages ago but here in the West we’re still partying like there’s no danger.
“Unfortunately, the situation is more like 1938” Exactly. Shortly before the Russian invasion began, Macron and Sholz were negotiating directly with Putin (having excluded the Ukraine President) and offered to sell out Donetsk and Luhansk provinces if the Russians would confirm that was their only territorial demand and withdraw the rest of their troops. With NATO allies like that, we cannot be sure that either of them would support us should it become necessary. Don’t forget the Germans have been restricting the availability of cricial spare parts for our Typhoons for years. We should reverse the latest defence cuts and… Read more »
Are there any similarities between what is going on now and what happened in Kosovo?
No as Kosovo wasn’t invaded by a megalomaniac bell end, backed up by bent criminals and supported by sad sheep!
Fair enough, not something I know about.
Excellent response Airborne…..
You really have gone low there Ivan , if you were from the UK you would remember of the hundreds of Kosovans ethically cleansed by that other poor excuse of a people the Serbs which was NATO’S finest moment stopping that and limiting Russia having any major influence which was a good thing because the Russian troops that were there were giving weapons to Serbs militia. I don’t mind your usual Russian nonsense its laughable but not this time its a bit desperate.
Well said
Mate his waffle over the last month seems to have gone pear shaped now that Putin has decided to go and murder thousands of Ukrainian people. Still no condemnation from this troll though is there?
He’s too busy writing a congratulatory letter to Macron……another pro-Putin clown.
👍 sad but true!
So John, any update on your condemnation of Putin now he is killing Ukrainian people en mass? Is he still your calendar boy? Your silence is deafening pal!
Hi CH. A good comparison you made with Europe late 30s. The key point of difference was Britain’s re armament programme was well underway before Sep ’39. I’m hoping the current spend uplift becomes entrenched as a standard annual upweight- preferably faster.
To quote Neville Chamberlain “have we missed the bus?”
Sunak it talking of tax cuts!!!!! Everything on it’s knees through a decade of harsh austerity & the urgent need to rebuild a credible military & all he can think of is how to avoid more tax.
“Everything on it’s knees through a decade of harsh austerity “
Liar.
Gov. expenses in UK don’t cease to grow,
taxes are up,
debt is up.
I agree
£14bn of the £16.5bn has gone on updating nuclear warheads and increasing submarine availability. Neither are discussed or have any measurable impact on capability. Shipbuilding, the government’s flagship issue has been cut, so you’d better believe the stuff it likes less than ships will be hurting even more.
Hi Jon,
Having the deterent paid for out of the general defence budget is wrong. It is a political weapon and should have a seperate funding mechanism as was the case about 30 years or so ago.
CR
Hi Albion,
The response from the UK is uneven to say the least. The supply of anti-armour weapons to the Ukraine is a clear act of support, but the sanctions are pathetic to say the least. It seems to me the Boris is more worried about supporting the City of London gray suites making money than he is in standing up to a dangerous dictator.
Cheers CR
I’m kind of hoping that there are cleverer people than me making the call on the sanctions…. I’d have started heavy and then reduce them if they were showing affect. As it stands, I think we’re giving Russian individuals and organisations a heads up. Like I say, I have to assume that those making the calls are well advised. 🙏
Start heavy and then let Putin pull back claiming it was all a drill after all and the UK just overreacted. Meaning he can climb down and still win the high ground. If we start low it’s harder. Boris can then claim the sanctions worked and gradually remove them again and so both sides can claim victory.
Slow also gives time for the money to be moved out of the country, which will result in the sanctions being meaniless.
Don’t think it’s about the city of London, it’s about the millions that has ended up in the conservative pockets and no doubt the cupboard full of skeletons that are linked to that money, that would no doubt be released to the press if Boris touched the money the Russians have in london.
Saying that his giving them plenty of time to move the money, so I expect improved sanctions in a week or two.
“Boris is more worried about supporting the City of London gray suites making money” is the Tory mantra. Not serving the best needs of the country & not being a sensible voice on the world stage, except to grandstand & distract from his many dreadful failings. Not fit for office, not up to the job. Heading for WW3 with a honey monster in charge!
I agree
Is this Alex Salmon? I thought so!
Alex salmon?
We beither face Putin & Xi down sooner & save millions of lives or procrastinate & stick our head in the sand until we either find we can’t avoid it or wake up with all our freedoms stripped away from us.
So at what point in time do you want a nuclear war, now or in a decade or so?
We avoid MAD by standing up with conventional forces now. If we allow a domino fall of European democracies we’ll either end up under Russian/PRC rule or nuke the world along the way. Putin thinks he can avoid anyone intervening by threatening nuclear strikes. If we comply we let him do whatever he pleases.
No. I don’t want to see any nukes used. But the deterrent is only of any value when the threat is used wisely & backed up with astute diplomacy & credible conventional forces used where necessary & prudent.
Could Russia sustain a war with NATO and the USA. No, definitely not.
BUT….are we really sure they will use them – or simply lay down arms and give them to the Russians????
They’ve been fighting the Russian’s for 8 years already…with thousands of dead.
And they’re fighting for their homes, families and lives…
That is true, and fair.
Whatever happens there, Ukraine will not got down without a fight. That could be putins downfall.
Ukraine had a referendum in 1991 to stay or become an independent country. It was over 90% for independence. I doubt they will give up that easily
What do you think will happen to all who’ve opposed Putin if Putin takes Ukraine? “Re-education” if they’re lucky, gulags or execution more likely. Look how the PRC are obliterating Uyghur culture. It could happen in Ukraine. I think we should be prepared to give real military support if called upon. Let Putin know we’re not going to stand by & let Ukraine be raped.
I completely agree and have been thinking about this all day. Clearly NATO Article 5 would not be triggered if Russia doesn’t harm a NATO country but…are we really going to sit by idle as a democratic European country is raped tortured and murdered??? Hate to be so pessimistic but I feel there is a big war coming. I served in 82 and saw Combat as many on this site served. Must say, the lead up to this conflict is very familiar. Too familiar. A lot of people ignorant, head in sand, as to consequences and thinking all will be… Read more »
Well said Rob, and thank you for service.
Article 4 has been triggered and NATO is responding all be it in a small way at the moment. Giving the generals operational control of some NATO units and allowing them to deploy those units as they see fit, within set guidelines, is a big step as the generals now have the ability to directly influence the political situation t some extent.
CR
Cheers CR
Hi Rob -your 40th anniversary coming up in a month or so. Thank you for your service. Your self claimed pessimism sounds more like wisdom based on years of experience. Sadly though, I feel your assessment is very accurate.
Cheers Klonkie. Yes 40 years and it’s completely mind boggling for me that is has been that long. Forty years! I was on broadsword and we have a lot planned, looking forward to seeing old oppos.
Let’s think of those poor people tonight in Ukraine. That could easily be us and we must help them anyway we can. Am very proud that UK is sticking its neck out and helping. Brits know all too well what it is like to be under bombs and missiles. Thanks 👍
HMS Broadsword – I wager you have some amazing stories to share from the Falklands experience. Enjoy those reunions, current events aside
Thanks – we will 😁😁
Wow Rob-respect! I followed every day of the Falklands campaign from here in Durban. Bought all the books and magazines and devoured everything on the TV and Newspapers.I think most down here supported the UK but there were a number of bitter colonials who hated everything British so I had some verbal punchups in the local press and elsewhere. Also they did a limited edition tune-up of the local Ford Cortina and called it the Xocet which pissed me off no end! Putin is an evil piece o sh*t-deranged and dangerous and I worry that he seems so ready to… Read more »
Thanks and thanks for doing your part Geoff!
In my simple ignorance, for a few years I’ve looked at the map and thought that Putin wants everything east of the river (Dnieper) that bisects the Ukraine and covers the industrial base, at least for now.
One can’t help but make comparisons with a previous dictator who liked to make hand gestures over maps.
It would make sense if the Ukrainian Army withdrew to the Dnieper rather than sit in eastern Ukraine waiting to be enveloped. The Dnieper is a very wide river and is far more defensible than their current deployment.
And lose half their country.
Better half than the whole thing. Poland faced the same dilemma in 1939. They could have withdrawn to the Vistula but instead decided to defend the entire border. The Germans just chopped them up into penny packets and then mopped up.
To be fair the Poles were faced with the dilemma of resisting the German invasion or resisting the Russian invasion, they decided to throw everything against the German one and the Russian units for the most part let the Polish troops withdraw unmolested.
Also with the help of Stalins Red army that took the East of Poland and then eliminated over 20,000 Polish officers during the Autumn of 39 at the katln forest then put the blame on the Germans Rob
Correct.
If you give an inch a tyrant will take a mile…and keep going. It has to hurt, there has to be consequences.
There are two Rob’s on this thread 😂
‘keep men and lose land, land can be retaken. Keep land and lose men both are lost.
– Mao (so I believe)
That may be the course Ukraine has to take, should the worst happen.
Not to mention that the other half is next door to Belarus….
Thank you that definitely adds to my armchair understanding.
As the Czech’s found out to their cost in 1938 if you surrender your best defensive positions and significant territory it’s as good as giving up all hope of survival.Best to stay where they are now,fight as best as they can,even if it won’t seriously affect the end result at least you exact a much higher price on your enemy.
Agree. Dying where you stand, on your own soil, next to your people, next to your your comrades is preferred. This way you exact a price on the enemy and you’ve lived and died on your soil fighting for your people. That’d be my (easy to say) choice anyway.
Rivers aren’t major barriers with paras & helibourne troops. Russia is very good indeed at crossing rivers.
Hi Aethelstan,
Your comments and Rob’s remind me of the posture taken by the Polish Army in 1939. I fear that any war in the Ukraine could be over just as quickly as I think the Russians appear have built up overwhelming power.
Cheers CR
That is a fantasy. He wants it all. How would you like to give up all territory south of the Watford gap to a foreign power? If Russians sense our fear, as they do today, of course they will keep going. Sanctions mean NOTHING. This is an ideological land grab. Putin will literally absorb a whole country and its military and its factories, its economy, raw materials, farms, its population and subjugate them to meet his needs. You are correct though, this is exactly like Adolf Hitler.
Any one got info on what is being supplied this time?
I know that they’re far from cutting edge, but do you think the Ukrainians would be able to make use of some of our old Rapier stocks which are presumably going to be disposed of now that Sky Sabre is coming online?
If there was more time, it would make sense. But as things stand they will require to much time for training before becoming competent to use the system. The Stingers and Groms are probably the best for now, as they require significantly less training.
I’d be surprised if Rapier was much use against reasonably modern jets. It never had the best reputation.
With a good operator and after the updates it had received it is a good system at what it does.
Ukraine has to try and hold out giving Russians air supremacy because once and side has that it becomes much harder to fight
Yes, it does very much depend on operator skills.
The man is very much in the middle.
It is far from an automated fire and forget system.
The other issue is simply knowing where to site it to avoid the various system limitations. As with T42 in ‘82 the limitations are not hard to guess and once you have these the system effectiveness can be ‘avoided’
That’s where I think we should help. Provide air cover.
That would then put the RAF directly at war with Russia would it not?
Yes. Putin is counting on the west doing anything except anything concrete, to avoid war. He will only be checked by actual force. I think we needed to call his bluff to put any real restraint upon his plans & even now it would have immensly more effect that all our outrage & sanctions.
Either we prove him wrong by reponding strongly or we let him get on with it & prove him correct in his assesment of us.
No easy options left now.
It was better than Bloodhound / RN Seaslug SB
Yes true.
Sea Slug was a very dangerous weapon: to the ship firing it.
Joking apart Rapier was a generation on and was a bit limited by computing power by comparison with Sea Wolf which would be a better comparator.
As you say in later iterations that was o second by the March of processor power and memory cheapness.
Fast jets and birds are not exactly fast to generate as effective forces.
In 82 our Cdr who was FAA wanted a Rapier battary placed on our flight deck he was quietly taken too one side whilst everyone got up of the deck from laughing bless his cotton flight socks
It wouldn’t have worked on a ship.
I’ve tested it and a modified version of it that was proposed as an ship carried AA quick fix post ‘82.
Sea Wolf on T22 was orders of magnitude better.
OK, it sort of worked OK if the ship wasn’t moving and was on a millpond. Even when it was fired from a noted target barge with a slight chop it was useless.
*moored target barge
That was pointed out to him after we checked our ribs for fractures from laughing he had also suggested the chippies make a structure that could house 20 SLRs and be operated by 1 man .We put this down too Oxygen starvation when he was a Phantom observer
What Ukraine needs is will to fight. For that needs RPG’s. A-tank missiles, etc.
The only thing that remains for Ukraine are guerrilla ops.
Mate, anything is better than Seaslug. The RN should have retired Seaslug from the County destroyers and replaced it with a 13th century trebuchet. Way cheaper, faster to operate and more accurate!
Had a great time working on them Klonkie when they were based in Portsmouth they all had to berth with their Slug launchers pointing away from Portsmouth if there had been a fire or explosion then the Slugs would be launched unfortunately they would of hit the town of Fareham which sits at the top of Portsmouth Harbour Shame 🤣🤣
They were not usually left on the rails in harbour or anywhere….
If you left them at a significant angle for any significant time the fuel leaked out the back due to the increased pressure. You then had a very toxic mess to clean up! Even in those days you would be wearing a full suit to do that.
The one thing that was good about the system was that you could understand how everything worked just by looking at it……
SB what I meant, was that the ships berthed all starboard side to FL Jetty Launchers were Clear If an emergency arose then Slugs could with Deflector plates still attached be fired off up the Trott towards Fareham
If they’d hit Lea Park it would have improved the place…
Tommo, Daniele, stop it both of you, if that had happened in the 80’s they may of got me in Wecock farm or Bridgemary. 😀.
Great story Tommo – happy times!
Oh Bollocks Klonkie it’s started and I haven’t got a Basement 🤢🤢🤢
what a mess -let’s hope cooler heads heads prevail! Europe looks like 1938/9 all over again.
Hi Klonkie once again we’re unprepared at this rate whilst the World is looking at Russia ,China will be looking at Taiwan now the winter Olympics have finished the world’s going to he’ll in a handcart mind you were we live we’re so far behind the times if it were too go nuke it wouldn’t affect us for 50yrs 😱😱
The last version Field Standard C was not that bad, as it was developed with lessons learned from the Falklands, plus it included a relatively new pulse Doppler radar and new optical camera and tracker. The main issue with it, is that by today’s standards it is rather dated. Some of the issues it has, is that it can only really engage one target at a time, although you can track another target through the optical tracker when the radar is guiding a missile, ready for the radar to take over when the target is hit. The other problem is… Read more »
An aircraft just need to go to 8km ceiling and Rappier can’t do anything.
I believe Ukraine has large numbers of various ex-soviet anti-aircraft missile systems including BUK and supplies of the missiles themselves. If a large portion are operational it give the Russians a big headache….
It seems to be forgotten on here that a lot of the high tech fabrication of these weapons was done in Ukraine for a very long time even after Perestroika.
There are some things that Russia is struggling to do because the actual fabrication know how was left behind in Ukraine.
Yes Ukraine was very much a main part of the Soviet Union. With the soviet missiles they have I presume that Russia will know exactly how to jam and neutralise them. Maybe in some way Ukraine has adapted/updated them so they are useful.
That may also work both ways as Ukraine may know the weaknesses of a lot of kit Russia has and will use.
The Russian forces won’t be doing any improvising as it is a rigid top down structure.
The Ukrainians will be improvising as their backs are against the wall. They might even get some helpful pointers……
Rapier would still do the job again helicopters. Would he pretty useless again russian jets but even so something is better than nothing.
True
Reading between the lines i wouldn’t be to surprised if the 2 x sky sabre units we sent to Poland are now in Unraine. Feel sorry for everyone caught up in this #fuckputin
I’m not sure that any amount of arms, short of giving them a large air force and plenty of modern artillery systems, are going to make a whole lot of difference now. Perhaps a wiser reinforcement would be a job lot of pressure plates, plastic explosives and other stores that the Ukrainians can stash away to fuel a post invasion resistance.
Yes, create a lasting insurgency. Albeit unlike tye Islamic insurgents who use suicide squads, it would probably be much smaller. There will be atrocities, probably a few executions. Giving them the satellite means ro broadcast thise to the world may assist. Thousands of sniper rifles stashed would fuel the Russian Body count. Hopefully Ukraine has already positioned a few operatives in Russia, near the crucial gas and oil infrastructure, pipelines etc to set off a few accidents. If civilians are killed in Kyiv , car bombs in Moscow might follow. Putin looks unhinged. Hopefully a general might plot to have… Read more »
I would not agree with the last part of your comment. Launching what would be terrorist attacks on Russian civilians many harden Russian resolve and actually provide more support for Putin.
I think Ukraine needs lots and lots of first rate mobile artillery and SAM in today’s climate. The air space will be uninhabitable over the Ukraine with Russian SS4 etc. UK needs to invest in those two items and fast. The battle will resemble the Western front to some extent.
Is anyone else providing stuff for Ukraine. I find most of the EU shockingly supine at best!
They need to hire some of the Taliban and others that fought in Afghanistan. They would teach Putin another painful lesson he seems to have forgotten.
Hi Rob, I have seen articals suggestions that the Ukraine should look at how the Finns resisted the Russians in ’39 / ’40 with hit and run attacks on Russian columns. Also, Churchill setup specialist Home Guard units that planned to let any German forces roll over them and then attack their supply lines. They even built bunkers hidden in woods in which supplies and arms Both tactics are options for the Ukrainians. I do not think the small Ukrainian Army has the fire power to stop the Russian’s so they problably need to adopt asymmetric tactics and pick their… Read more »
Hi CR,
Agree. If the Ukrainian Army just sits out on the Steppe they will get clobbered by mass armour encirclement. Their best bet is to fight in the built up areas and hope to Stalingrad the Russians. Also all that Russian armour needs a huge logistic tail open to attack; destroy the bridges and railways, blow up fuel dumps etc…
Hi CR
Unfortunately, the weather is likely to play into the Russian’s favour with Spring around the corner – unlike the Finnish conflict that began in mid winter.
I would hope that part of the training we’ve given them is on how to fight a guerrilla war. I would assume we and other allies will have gone over the strategy and tactics that will be used. There’s been months to prepare I hope the time has been used wisely.
Shame that we no longer pack AP Mines (toe poppers) as it would look like if Putin goes all out it would be more of an insurgency type bogdown his troops with anything we use Dets Det Cord P4 PPs Shrikes Cortex Rob
I really hope the penny has finally dropped in The West regarding Putin. It’s too late to do much about the separatist regions but Ukraine needs to be armed to the teeth to make any full-scale Russian invasion costly, with serious sanctions and a beefed up military presence in Poland and The Baltic’s to show NATO’s resolve to put a stop to this Russian aggression.
Agreed even if we don’t Putin will claim we are doing so anyway for internal and external useful idiot reception as a pretence to take the next step and eventually that next step will be the Baltic States and that does mean WW3 or certainly a grave ongoing engagement between Russia and NATO and probably Sweden too. Still don’t know if Putin will try to take the whole Country and hold it it would be impossible for them to station half the Russian army there and anything less would be ridiculously thin on the ground and I’m sure will suffer… Read more »
Just a thought – is the NLAW any good? Maybe enough to give the Russians a bloody nose if they roll further into Ukraine.
Yes, NLAW is very good, but at close ranges! It can either be programmed for a direct attack or a top attack. The top attack will defeat most if not all MBTs. The NLAW is really an ambush weapon, it is particularly suited for firing from upper story rooms, due to lack of back blast.
It has more than enough range for urban warfare.
Hi Jay, see the attached link below:
NLAW | Saab
It use predicted line of sight (PLOS). The operator tracks the target for 3 seconds and the electronic in the missile works out the target’s predicted track. The missile then flies towards the predict interception point. In over flight top attack mode, it uses a programmable proximity sensor, to detect the target below it, before firing a downwards facing shaped charge. It has been improved within the last two years, where it can now engage moving targets out to 800m. In direct mode it can be used against helicopters.
Predictive Line of Sight.
It’s only as good as the guy wielding it. Since it’s a close range weapon the shooter has to have balls of steel and be willing to die soon after it’s fired.
It’s good, it’s modern and very effective from defensive positions, and light enough to be carried about in decent number by blokes on the ground!
Could the recently retired Rapier missiles be sent to Ukraine? Hardly matters if post invasion Russia gets their hands on them and might take out a few aircraft or helicopters. I really hope the Ukranians in conjunction with the West are properly arming and planning a resistance movement. Small arms, snipers, fake Russian uniforms and explosives would be very useful.
You’d need months of training to become effective, on a weapon system that has comparatively short range and with munitions that will be end of lifed, if not now, in a short period of time.
Just wouldn’t be worth it.
I thought that as well Andrew, Training the Ukrainians in time may be difficult, but this could end up being a long campaign. Send them to West Ukraine or even Romania. Start the training, then deploy them to east Ukraine as the Ukrainians become proficient.
The Ukranians have said they think they have enough anti-tank weapons now but still need more anti-air and anti-ship weapons.
I thought they had their own home brew version of Harpoon?
Whilst taking those batteries out would be a first minute cruise missile attack they still pose a real problem for Russian vessels.
The Missile System is called Neptune i believe,it’s just entered service so not available in significant numbers yet.
The fact they have some is a threat and changes the operational risk calculus.
They’ve already invaded a sovereign country for like the 3rd time. Either give the Ukrainians the weapons they need to defend themselves to let Putin absorb them back into the U.S.S.R. Why are we so worried about Putin? He’s a bully that Sleepy Joe refuses to stand up too. And the people of Ukraine are once again paying the price. Just like his old boss Obama that did nothing.
Really Dan? Are you that naive? Which former American president just today described Putins actions in Ukraine as ‘Genius, wonderful and very savvy ‘?. Which former American president tried to force Ukraine into supplying false stories about Bidens son before he would consider aid ?
That’s right, the Russian agent and Republican former president Donald J. Trump .
Like him or not, his strategy has been very savvy. totally outfoxed the west on this one (and the two prior).
You are right. What is happening now is an indictment of blinkered Western thinking going back 20 years. There has been a naive belief that Russia had gone away. From at 2006 onwards, it was very obvious it hadn’t.
Well we have a lot of medium armour vehicles slated for the cut, why not donate them some warrior? Harpoon is on its way out, could they not be launched from the shore at russias flotilla? Rapier, snipers, land mines, let’s give them everything legacy we can, it will only be removed from service and scrapped anyway. I for one am distinctly uncomfortable at leaving Ukraine to fend for themselves. I don’t want war, but putin understands nothing but force. They currently have around 48 vessels in the black sea with only one exit point which could be blockaded. Perfect.… Read more »
Any closure of the Turkish straits would, under international law, be an act of war. The one message that most definitely would get Putin’s attention would be if NATO naval task groups started forming up in the Baltic, Atlantic and Med and the US Air Force started deploying from CONUS to Europe.
Stoltenberg stated there were more than 120 vessels at sea under NATO command this morning.
Yes, yes. We should also help Strengthen Ukraines neighbours. Romania and Bulgaria should be offered a lot of surplus UK kit at a discounted price. These nations should be fortified heavily. They may become the new barrier to Russia if Ukraine falls. I’m sure the people there are not feeling very secure.
Czechoslovakia all over again really. What do you reckon, a push into Ukrainian controlled areas of Donetsk and Lugansk before spring followed by a lot of rhetoric over the summer? Surely a push to the river will follow next winter in order to link up to Crimea? He’ll hopefully be done (literally and metaphorically) by then. Unfortunately, Ukraine will be devastated military and economically by then. Ukraine should let him have the entirety of the separatist regions (after a fighting withdrawal) and the rest of us should throw as much modern weaponry and training at Ukraine as we can over… Read more »
Probably about right, piece by piece he moves just like a chess board.
Not much else can be done other than arm up Ukraine as much as possible and hope he doesnt push the tanks straight to Kiev immediately.
I bet they wouldn’t mind having some ground launched Brimstone and Sea Venom. Sea Venom especially would make things uncomfortable for any amphibious forces around Crimea. I’m guessing there’s no way either of those are realistic options though.
What else is there that we can give them that would make a difference? Skysabre is the only one that could make a difference and is also pointless given that we barely have any and don’t have time to train their forces on the system.
And alongside the weapons let’s send over all the STWC politicians and pathetic hangers on who seem to think it’s NATOs and the West’s fault (well it’s there default position). Im sure they will be very useful in seeing reality and try their STWC shite on Putin and his head shed muppets! They do seem to love the good old USSR, let them do their bit for world peace!
Sky are running a story that Russian vehicles have started sprouting unit identification / objective / traffic management symbols (BTW well done Sky, their analysis has been very impressive). That means only one thing, invasion is now imminent. I expect the Russian forces will use the old Soviet military play book to conduct a concentric armoured blitzkrieg. It will look very much like the Soviet 1945 attack on Mongolia at the end of WW2. The Ukrainians would be stupid to go toe to toe with such an attack. The real issue will be when those forces start trying to clear… Read more »
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1496183250728935428/photo/1
Thanks Paul. Obvious axis of advance if correct. Ivan is going for an encirclement battle west of the Donbass.
Good spot.
Thank goodness the Brits are doing something to help the poor people of Ukraine. Right now I’m embarrassed to be an American with Sleepy Joe doing the absolute minimum to help Ukraine. Trump was right when he said Putin is walking all over Biden and his liberal gang. Ugh
You’re on a British site, please refrain from bastardising the English language with your total misuse of the word ‘liberal’. It doesn’t mean what you think it means. Secondly, the United States has given Ukraine a lot more arms than we have. None of us though have given enough.
We feel sorry for you Dan ,but Sleepy Joe wants your boys out of Vietnam first
Yeah, name one occasion when Trump stood up to Putin and Russia and didn’t fawn all over him . Just one.
When he pulled out of the arms agreement about medium range weapons… Or utterly destroyed the Russian Wagner group in Syria… There’s a reason no one messed with him.
” There’s a reason no one messed with him.” ?? Ha ha you must get all your news from Tucker Carlson. Pulling out of the arms agreement benefitted Russia, giving Putin more pretext.
Wagner were destroyed by US airstrikes and special forces already engaged. It wasn’t ordered by Trump. He doesn’t do, or ever did armed combat- heel spurs remember?
“Yeah, name one occasion when Trump stood up to Putin and Russia and didn’t fawn all over him . Just one.”
You are really ignorant.
The same Trump that said he admired what Putin was doing and wished he could annex Mexico in the same way?
It’s a gesture, but no more. As Lord Dannatt, the former head of the Army, pointed out in the Lords yesterday(?), a maximum effort by the British Army would involve the deployment of one combat brigade to the Ukraine, and 3000 to 5000 men just wouldn’t make any difference militarily. At least up to SDSR2015 the UK aimed to be able to deploy a full “war fighting” division – a BEF that would at least be able to inflict a bloody nose on the invading Russian’s. It’s become obvious that serious weakness of the 2021 Integrated Review was scaling down… Read more »
1500 Russian Tanks is quite a conservative number – ive read more like 2800,which may include those operated by the LNR/DNR Forces.
I hope the public now realise how little manpower the army can deploy even for the most serious situation. We all here have known this for years.
Negotiating a peace is always more beneficial when the aggrieved party has a really big stick. Unfortunately successive and progressive cuts have weakened our diplomatic standing. Many agree that we have a weak military; not enough warplanes,warships, tanks, soldiers etc. But the narrative is always constrained by the budget allocated to defence by the government of the day. It’s great to have the heart of a lion – but when it’s encased in the body of a Chihuahua; our ability to negotiate the peace suffers.
All bluster really – anti tank weapons? How many C17s have the US sent? If they were serious they would have sent a Patriot or some configuration of the Iron Dome. Mid altitude config would have been up by now, and would give the ground forces a fighting chance. Now the only way this ends ‘well’ is to put the Russian forces into the meat grinder – the Russian military doctrine has always been pile it high sell it cheap. (I am sure any one who has been in the services will remember the little green men in Crimea, and… Read more »
All strength to Ukraine 🇺🇦 and their people! As an expat Brit glad the ol’country is doing its bit. Thoughts, prayers and support from down here in 🇦🇺
And so it begins… prayers for the citizens of the Ukraine
Indeed Sean. A dark and dreadful day. Once again, the power of one little twisted man to threaten the wellbeing of the whole planet.
Yes sadly the result of years, decades, of appeasing Putin’s behaviour – from rigging elections to invading Georgia and Ukraine. He needs to be taken down.
As if the Ukrainians haven’t suffered enough, I wish them all the best. Putin has a lot to answer for.
Sean,
Ive been following what is happening from this geezer (he writes in English)
https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee?s=20&t=F3ZnJcUGScvpSJVwNHRKOA
Talk about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut
You can also garner an overall picture from Ukraine live maps:
The link
https://liveuamap.com
Thank you for the link farouk, disturbing, doesn’t look like it is a limited operation, but all out.
From what’s being seen and Putin’s speech it sounds like going all for all out regime change, destruction of Ukraine’s military, and reducing it to a vassal state where he can rig elections as easily as his own.
Hi Sean, let’s hope Ukraine can put up a good fight, with the west continuing to supply arms through the Ukrainian boarders with Poland and Romania. If Ukraine calls up all its reserves, the subjection of Ukraine would come at a huge cost to both Ukraine and Russia.
I think Russian is moving at full tilt to prevent the Ukraine from having the time and opportunity to fully mobilise its reserves. Putin wants it over as quickly as possible to avoid a drawn out campaign with mounting losses.
The question is whether the west can still supply arms over NATO borders and whether Putin will see this as provocative.
Yes just heard BBC report, it looks like a total invasion from the North and East and an amphibious invasion from two locations in the south, and a further land invasion from Crimea.
CNN seem to be as usual on the ball with reports – even had a live interview with a reporter in Kiev as first missiles hit nearby Ukrainian airbase.
Russian forces at Odessa, so either crossed from Transnistria or amphibious and paratrooper landings.
Clearly an attack from all sides to give the Ukrainians as little chance as possible to fall-back and form a defensive line.
Let’s hope Ukraines defense plans fall into place and they can give good account of themselves. But honestly I feel for them.
The west is clearly weak in the eyes of Putin, Jinping and co and this is the result.
Economic sanctions matter little, should have sent in rapid reaction forces at the first sign of trouble (in 2008 – Georgia) and said, “if you want a fight…”
Another foreign policy disaster brought to you by Biden/Harris. If the withdrawal from Afghanistan wasn’t bad enough. God help the poor people of the Ukraine because Biden won’t be helping you. And that means no one else will be either. A very sad day for America and the West. Shame on all of us for letting this disaster happen.
Nope, pretty sure it’s Putin not Biden/Harris that is inflicting suffering on the Ukraine. Keep your bad loser politics out of a serious situation.
Putin attacks because he saw weakness.
But you don’t even seem to understand that…
Funnily enough Trumps been on Fox News saying that Ukraines fate was sealed when Putin saw the weakness in the US making the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan.
He was keeping schtum that it was he who made that decision.
Mind you this is the same guy that yesterday was praising Putin as a genius and saying he wished he could declare bits of Mexico independent then send in troops to annex them.
Putin attacks because he’s a psycho you idiot.
Please keep your polarised, Trumpist rhetoric to yourself and desist from ranting on this British based site dedicated to informed defence news and opinions.
Putin and the Chicoms have the perfect person in the White House to make stuff like this a reality. Next comes Taiwan. Thanks American voters. Ugh
I’m sorry dan, this is not on America, Europe or the UK. None of these countries were ever going to war for Ukraine. This is ALL on Putin. He has planned this for sometime, and he alone his made the decision to attack a free and democratic country.
Yes it is. Putin only attacks because he sees weakness.
Come now AlexS, Putin is not a force of nature, Strength or Weakness, Putin has made a choice, he has decided to invade Ukraine no one else. Could the west of done more, maybe/probably, but how far do you go?
I don’t understand your reasoning “force of nature”. Do you know that no Western NATO country have more than 200 tanks and probably half of what they have not even in work conditions for combat? Do you know the neo-Marxist (stupidly called woke) self hate Western civilization in media, Hollywood, academia and publicity? No one wants to emulate a civilization that self hates. That is what the left – Democratic Party in USA, Labour UK and equivalents in other countries have been building. The attack on Ukraine is done in context of a Western Civilization that do no believe itself… Read more »
Hi AlexS, on military preparedness I would agree that the west has been under prepared. But this has been the case since the late 90’s both sides of the house have been guilty of reducing our armed forces. If I’m understanding you correctly (sorry if that is not the case). You are saying the left has weakened our western democracies to the point that Putin can now freely attack Ukraine. I’m not sure I agree there. Yes there are certainly people with views that you or I may not agree with. But there are also many people with opposing views.… Read more »
Have just read Putins veiled threat to launch Nukes if the West interferes. The man is clearly mad. If he says the West will face consequences “greater than you have faced in history” then he should know that Russia will receive the same. He needs to be reminded of this.forcefully and the West needs to make contact with any sane Russians in positions of influence to understand the reality of what this maniac is doing and saying
The west needs to fully sanction Russia. No flights, no shipping, no imports or exports, no financial transactions, to/from Russia or Belarus.
Completely cut them off.
The question is whether the west has the nerve for the pain it will have to endure for this action.
And invite Finland and Sweden to join NATO. Putin needs to understand the very thing he didn’t want being NATO expansion, is happen because of his actions.
Agreed, should be an immediate invitation made to Finland and Sweden.
They HAVE to find the nerve Sean. If Putin gets away with this kind of crude blackmail then he will continue unchecked. the alternative is for the west and indeed the civilised world to face greater pain later. Don’t underestimate a sick mind wanting to achieve a kind of twisted immortality by going down in history as the man who destroyed the world as we know it.
If we don’t, then he’ll continue unchecked.
Best hope is the Ukrainians give the Russians a mauling and the military leadership move against Putin. But I’m not holding my breath…
Hi Geoff -How are tricks mate?. Sanctions need to be total and brutal. This need to seriously adversely effect the average Russian citizen and quickly (short of life essential/humanitarian medical).
I draw the comparison of sanctions against RSA in the1980S. A massive economic impact that did more to force the government’s hand to change than any other factor.
The fly in the ointment is off course China. My personal view is that Putin has done a deal (oil for essentials) with Chairman Xi. A psychopath Putin is, but he is shrewd and calculating as well.
Howsit Klonkie! Battling along here and ironically(and sadly) thinking we are safer in the Southern hemisphere than our friends in Europe and North America! Putin is such a wild card that it is difficult to predict anything-Mutually Assured deterrent has worked for 70 years but we have not factored in the possibility of someone truly unhinged in charge of the Nuke keys!! I think Joe Biden and Boris have understood things well and have drawn the necessary lines and addressed the reality of Putin as best as they can so we just have to wait and hope. Off to the… Read more »
Enjoy the berg!
Hi Sean – do refer my comment re sanctions in my repel to Geoff. As an ex- South African in the1980s, economic sanctions were the principal factor for the end of Apartheid. It does need to be total and brutal to be effective however.
I think the fall of communism in Europe ultimately had a bigger impact. After the Wall came down the West no-longer needed SA as a bulwark against communism in Southern Africa.
Hi Sean. Sanctions as Klonkie said, were the main factor and the Minister of finance at the time confirmed this after 1994. The fall of Communism made De Klerks government and Saffers in general more comfortable with the idea of a deal with the ANC as it was then not seen to be an automatic handover to hardline Stalinists. Also we were dealing with educated realists such as Mandela and Mbeki so this eased the path to the transition
Mate we could use a Mandela right now – talk some sense into Putin.
We could Klonkie but I fear Putin is beyond sense!
Sean, you are right re the Communism point, but sanctions were the key driver, no doubt about it. I remember home mortgage rates hovering around the 20% point in the late 80’s.
Let’s hope the UK/USA weapons to Ukraine include Rapier/Stinger/Skystreak and are put to good use right now. Just seeing pictures on our tv news showing they’re under attack now. Hope Ukraine gives Russia a big bloody nose. All strength to them.
I believe out of the weapons you have listed, only stingers have been supplied. We do need Ukraine to give Russia a bloody nose as you say otherwise Putin will be further emboldened.
Good job we didn’t offload Blowpipe onto them. Moscow would never have known what had hit them
we would have been better off sending a stern letter. 😀
So Putin has crossed the Rubicon. History will put him in the same category as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam etc. The likely course of events is that the big casualties will start when the Russian forces start to occupy the built up areas. Once that happens we will see how much fight the Ukrainians have. When the body bags start flowing back to Russia we will see just how mad Putin now is; will he deploy CBRN attacks? We must impose every sanction that is in the book and then some more. That includes deporting Russian citizens and confiscating all wealth.… Read more »
Will the MOD now rethink about cutting our hardware. Keep the C130’s, Typhoons etc and add to their numbers. Keep our MCMV’s etc etc. We are weak and would not last long up against such numbers, 150 tanks against several thousand. We couldn’t undertake a Gulf Op again never mind a Falklands. Government Ministers like all their kind have no real idea. God help us now.
Angus, that’s a logical and easy thing to do – let’s hope so.