The British government has pledged to step up defensive maritime patrols in and around the Strait of Hormuz in response to calls for increased coordination and interoperability of international maritime security.
This statement followed a pledge by the US National Security Council Spokesman, John Kirby, who asserted on 12 May that a boost to international maritime security was under consideration.
The Marquess of Lothian, a member of the Conservative Party, asked His Majesty’s Government about any actions being taken to fortify patrols around this strategically important waterway. The Marquess specifically enquired about the Government’s response to the United States’ commitment to bolstering co-ordination and interoperability in maritime security.
Responding on behalf of the Government, Baroness Goldie, Lord in Waiting and The Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, outlined the actions being taken to protect commercial shipping in the region.
She noted, “The UK currently commands the International Maritime Security Construct, which provides an immediate response to the threat in the Persian Gulf by providing reassurance to commercial shipping and maintaining the security of the maritime commons.”
Baroness Goldie highlighted the deployment of HMS LANCASTER, a Type 23 Frigate, which regularly patrols the Gulf of Oman and the Strait of Hormuz.
Moreover, she confirmed that the UK is working in partnership with the US to increase defensive maritime patrols in the Strait of Hormuz. “Alongside the US,” she said, “the UK is currently increasing defensive maritime patrols in the Strait of Hormuz to provide additional security for maritime commerce in the region.”
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The RN are doing bloody well at the moment, and have been for the last few years, in regard to their excellent planning, preparation and organisation of deployments, but surely to God the RN elastic band is stretched nearly to breaking point?
I could not agree more. We are now at the point where we are about to run out of frigates due to age and infirmity, just when we need more. Navy Lookout has a good article on the demise of Westminster, over thirty years old and completely run into the ground. It is all very well for stupid politicians to say we are going to do more, but what with?
There is much truth in what @Airborne and you have posted, but, there is another side to this equation. HMS Venturer is now scheduled to be launched and in the water earlier than first forecast. The crews for both T26 & T31 are coming from the T23’s, so if one ship gets launched earlier, then it also needs a crew earlier. Non of this is ideal, but unfortunately this is where we are at currently.
Agree mate and that comes back to my thoughts on how well the RN have done in preparation, in planning and more than likely in arguing for the uplift of money and capabilities over the last 10 years. They have took the pain early, for future “jam”! It seems to be working, with the newer platforms and capabilities being introduced. Good news about the T31s in regard to weapons fit and timescales! While the Army chopped and changed every 2-3 years in its needs, the RN just got on with it👍
And it’s not ended yet re the army. I expect another reshuffle shortly. MLRS to number 71 apparently, that will require moving posts if Battery numbers are increased. A superb expansion I must say, but at the expense of….yet to be determined.
The army desperately just needs to decide what it wants to be, and stick to it.
Instead, we might get a new “Future Force 2035” replacing A2020R.
Note how the promised land is always far away, cuts are immediate, and the plan is then changed a few years down the line as a new administration come in.
Rinse and repeat. As you say, at least the RN seems to have a plan. I did read many years ago a piece that predicted escort numbers dropping at one point to 14, before rising again.
Sound familiar?
How are they going to achieve that with MLRS, any indication.
I don’t know myself for sure, yet.
On posts, some shuffling about, winners and losers.
On launchers, I think I read something about buying up reserve US Army stocks, and any others spare they can get their hands on, before refurbing the lot, which includes a new cab and the smarter, longer ranged munitions.
I personally would like to see the RA transformed, along the lines A describes.
Expand the RA, long range fires, AD, offensive and recce drones, all feasible if the head sheds have the balls (god forbid) to maybe cut 2 or of the new 250 person “nonsense” Battalions! Gabby has stated he is aware the RA are looking at quite quick increases of battery numbers to 4 (per Regiment?) in those areas!!!!! The FF2035 I’m sure will look and sound good, but as ever what depth, real capabilities and what offensive output will it produce? Cuts followed by spin, followed by disinformation and organisation changes! Always sadly familiar mate eh!
We still need a further batch of 5 more type 31 frigates and likely the type 26 order put back up to 10-12 hulls to really be getting back into the realm of having adequate numbers of warships to sustain current increased tempo of operations during PEACETIME. God help us if there is a war because the cupboard is looking pretty threadbare.
Its not as simple as one day moving off of a T23 and suddenly being an up and running crew on a T26/31.
Everyone joining will have a PJT package to complete. WE and ME Techs and Engineers will have the biggest package of courses to complete especially with regards to T31 which is pretty much entirely new equipment for the RN.
As a Gunbuster my PJT packages where pretty restrained…maybe 2-3 months of courses in total spread out during my shore time in the year before joining. For some of the other maintainers it can be 8-9 months of courses at least. For the WOs and Officers it can be longer. System engineering, Staff Courses and all those wonderfull 2 day intros all add up. All these courses need to be done at shore establishments like Collingwood or Sultan with FF/DC courses at Whale Island/ Raleigh.
T31 is a new command system so the operators will need to know and learn it from scratch on the simulators . Again thats not a quick evolution.
Drafty is going to be sending people on courses now who are doing their shore time or standing by the vessels in build and. They will not be currently at sea on a working T23.
If a T23 goes out of service early then drafty has a number of crew members that no longer need to join a T23 so he can send them to a T26/31. However the above point regarding PJT packages remains extant…they still need to be trained.
Ships in refit have a minimal crew anyway. Mostly WE and ME engineers, some Loggies and maybe one or two operators. Most operators leave for other jobs and courses and only join in the latter stages when the ship and its systems start to be brought back to life.
Sorry Gunbuster, PJT?
Pre Joining Training. Any course you do before joining a ship. The minimum requirement is always Fire fighting,damage control and sea survival course. After that its dependent on your speciality and job description.
My last RN job as a Warrant required me to do 9 If i remember )
NBCDQ — Teach the trained on damage control, fire fighting, NBC Defence. 5- 6 weeks and an absolute cracking course.
LPD System Engineer– 7 Weeks
OOD refresh — 1 week
Bulk Ammunition Handling and Storage–1 week
LESMS and LERK– Lifting equipment Inspector and record keeper–4 weeks
UMMS Manager– RN Computer Based maintenance system ADMIN level Manager.
There where a few others as well and a fair few online courses to complete such as Diversity, Security, WOME (Weapons Ordnance Munitions Explosives) practitioner etc.
Thing is all these are done in your shore time when you should be spending harmony time with your family. As most are undertaken in Portsmouth you massively dip out as a Plymouth rate. Only home at weekends and having to do the wacky races to the West Country on a Friday afternoon.
The above are only for that one draft to a ship. Behind them are decades of courses and jobs covering Guns ( Small arms Armourer, 20, 30, 40mm, Oto Melara 76mm, 4.5 Inch), Air Weapons, Magazines, Explosives, Degaussing, SFCs, Hydraulics, Towed Array and Active Sonar, Decoys, Demolitions, Gunnery Control Sytems and Directors, MCM Sweeping, Boarding Team, Helo Services, T23 System Engineer, and back up maintainer jobs on Harpoon, Gyros, Phalanx, Goalkeeper, Exocet, Misc systems to many to mention. Plus indepth knowledge you pick up from being onboard and working with other maintainers such as Sea Wolf, Sea Dart, 996 Radar, 2050 Sonar, Command Systems, Satcomms, Radio. GRP Hulls,
Hi mate,
thanks for the post, yes, happens like that with us ‘sun dodgers’ too.
Entirely my fault for not putting enough content in my post(would have saved you writing urs!!).
Appreciate new crew doesn’t all arrive en mass on a given day either, but is staggered over a pre determined time.
The point I was making (clearly not detailed enough), was that there is probably more going on with the decision to curtail Westminsters refit then just money. Its not perhaps what we would like to see, but is unfortunately where we are at.
With the rate we are currently de-commissioning ships of various sizes, you would like to think that it helps drafty to a greater degree! With the new classes requiring less manpower (sorry peoples!!), hopefully shortages should start to ease, obviously it will take time.
Crew = Manpower
But female crew still want to be called seaman…
If Westminster is as shagged as we are led to believe then its a no brainer decision to take. Avoid the cost of a refit which will I guarantee it, increase exponentially in time and growth costs as things get uncovered the deeper you dive into it.
Not a palatable decision in the short term but one that needs to be taken with a view to the medium term benefits of money being spent elsewhere to the benefit of other units and the issues with crew numbers and training.
In the 2015 SDR, the MoD brought three extra sets of gear(GFE) for the first T-26’s, so they said that those first T-23’s(ASW)s can keep operating until the first T-26’s are in full service.
The plan is then to strip the decommissioned T-23’s for gear(GFE) for the remaining to be built T-26’s.
Yes, I’m sure that was probably the plan, indeed it might still be the plan, unfortunately that was eight years ago and things can change!
My personal opinion on HMS Westminster’s refit, is that its down to more than just money, although that will probably be the main issue in determining whether or not it goes ahead.
The defence review paper is due at the end of the month, if as expected we see some savings need to be made. Then something like this will kill two birds with one stone so to speak.
The usual grandstanding, the same or greater commitments, with less. Basing the 23 out there helps.
The 8 T26 and 5 T31 return numbers to the latest low, which then becomes the new benchmark.
Ideally, the RN should have around 20 Frigates, but with the daft cut of 3 T23 in 2004 and the 4 T22 in 2010, plus early retirements now, chickens home to roost.
Too true. The figure of 13 frigates is entirely artificial and has no basis in actual operational need, and you are also correct in the loss of 7 ships before they were in any way life expired. I fear that the forthcoming review will merely dress up this lack of resources with weasel words. And even if the government committed to an increase in hulls, where do the crews come from?
We all know what the review will say. We are a world player doing more with less, blah blah blah.
Then it will state that some projects have run over budget so other things have to be cut to pay for it but describe it as a good thing.
Or, when Labour get in they just enact the left’s dream of ending GBs world role and withdraw the fleet to European waters only. Less vessels. Less commitments. No problem?
Personally I think we should be doing a half way house. The fleet is spread way you wide and that means we have a single vessel acting alone which doesn’t deter anyone and doesn’t reassure anyone. We should consolidate and do les but do it properly. A full task force of multiple vessels operating together sets a way better imagine, especially if it’s centered around a carrier.
One frigate in the Strait of Hormuz isn’t going to put off Iran, as it’s a big ocean and a single vessel can only be at one place a time.
I beg to differ. The Iranian Navy is usually very proffesional and doesn’t play silly buggers. The IRG however do mess about with FF/DD. They come out and play in their small boats and do some “dangerous manoeuvres” but thats it. They know full well that they will get shredded if they go and push it to far. A USN PC last year opened fire with warning shots after they pushed to much. Since then they have been a little bit more careful.
The issues with illegal boardings isn’t going to be stopped by a squadron of FF/DD unless they reinstate the Armilla type convoys.
The USN had 10 Typhoon Class PCs last year. Now they have none. Sold on/gifted to other nations They are due to be replaced by LCS ( originally from 2017 and still nothing in sight!) The only US presence is 4 Avenger MCMs, 4 USCG Cutters and the occasional AB that pops into the Gulf area. The RN has Lancaster, Cardigan Bay ( A massively important asset for all Allied nations) and 3 x MCMs. Other nations are out and about. I have seen French, Japanese, Italian, Indian, GCC FF/DD and MCM units amongst others in the area and alongside over the past months.
Tell that to the number of container ships that have been illegally boarded over the last few years. Whenever there is a western navy ship in the area they have backed off, so the only solution is more ships, one vessel doesn’t cut it. If the navy is there is protect British interests then that is the only current place where it is needed
The whole global Britain, having ships all over the world, helping the economy has been proven to be a load of rubbish, all the trade deals we have got have been a carbon copy of the EU ones at best and a lot worse in the majority of cases, we don’t so far have a single one that is better based on the governments own data. Better to use the resource where it might do some good. The navy is there for the rainy day but in the meantime may as well get some benefit from it.
We could stick 30 ships in the Gulf Theater and they would still do boardings. Loads of pirate takes happened even with a massive number of European, US and others ships around Somalia. The takes stopped because of the massive number of Warships off the coast, economic and financial measures against the Gang Bosses and some visits ashore by certain people… it still took over 3 years to get it to stop.
That said, Lancaster and her helo this morning just deterred the IRG from Boarding a ship that they where playing silly buggers with in there small speed boats.
For sure can never have enough in the region but could at least do better, considering this is an actual threat to trade
Morning Gunbuster, remember when the Armilla patrol was a standing force of a three frigate/ destroyer mix and this was doubled to six in times of tension!!
Back when we had 40 frigates and destroyers and that was considered a bare minimum for tasking…..
You needed that many as there was no permanent ship basing in the area which helps now with vessel availability. The Ships also went out and about from the Gulf into the Indian Ocean on jollies a lot more. When doing the convoys everyone joined in as an escort ( USN, RN, French anyone else!) and you got hangers on joining onto the tail end hoping for free cover.
Oh happy days!
I partially agree with the logic, though I do believe in presence, even if it is but a single vessel. Which is why I support T31 and River B2 especially.
I’d like to see the T45s and T26 in groups like you describe
, centered on a carrier, but the RN is now too small for that.
Yeah but the small size of the navy is why I think it would be better to condense. When the US wants to send a message to another country, whether it’s don’t mess with us or we are there to support you, they have their carrier task force roll up and that sets a strong message. Sending a single vessel just doesn’t, it kinda sends the reverse which is we don’t have the assets to help /deter you, so here is a token message.
Yes, I get the logic. This is a longstanding commitment though, not a developing situation like Corporate where we could assemble a task force.
We cannot have a group there, and we cannot just leave the area either.
Assets need to be close by to respond, not taking weeks to arrive. One reason for the Commando forces new posture with the LRGs. They are present and can respond quickly.
If a bigger commitment is needed, then the LRG can be enlarged into a LSG, with a Carrier and all the other bits added.
The straights strategic importance will not go away, nor Iran, so assets need to be on station.
My thoughts on it anyway…
Only one USN AB in the Gulf area at present. Another AB is outside. No Carrier or even MAG anywhere near. They havent sent anyhing group sized this way for over 18 months.
Why should the British taxpayer be funding patrols in the Straits of Hormuz? Particularly as they don’t seem to have any clearly articulated objective that relates to the security of the UK.
Oil imports exports, transit access through the Suez, access to Diego Garcia. Russia meddling in Sudan, China in Djibouti too and getting friendly with Saudi Arabia, plus there’s the US, plus us. Big wrestling match going on. China, Russia in South Africa recently, probably trying to squeeze the West of influence on Africa and Middle East, it’s bases and fuel access. Got to remain strong, fair, strategic.
Because the UK is a maritime-dependent country that needs open sea lanes for our financial well being. Because more oil flows through the Straits of Hormuz than any other choke point on Earth. Because when the price of oil rises, the UK suffers and Russia benefits.
Because this nation depends in international trade.
Tell me. Once the UK or the west in general withdraw, who fills the vacuum?
Here, read all about it.
About Combined Maritime Forces (CMF) – Combined Maritime Forces (CMF)
LNG from Qatar. Page 9 of the doc.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147130/Supply_of_Liquefied_Natural_Gas_in_the_UK__2022.pdf
The Straits of Hormuz are absolutely vital to world trade, they are like the Malacca Straits, Panama and Suez canals…
World trade chock points, each one being disrupted sends a delayed economic shockwave accross the world’s economy.
Oh just stop it.
Should Labour state that, a big if, there is another way to look at it, they are being honest.
I’m fed up to the back teeth with Cons wrapping themselves up in the flag of the Union and spouting tripe about being the party of defence.
What we really need all need is honesty.
Shall we put a flotilla in the Gulf of T31s? Would it make a difference? Seriously, can you spreadsheet a cost/benefit analysis of the difference it would make?
Let’s get things right at home before we try to change the world.
There are some really deluded Tory boys on here who seem to have missed the fact that the tories are responsible for running this country into the ground. It gets worse by the year yet somehow that’s the fault of the “lefties”. Each and every one of them owns a piece of the turd this country has turned into.
I like Daniele, his heart is in the right place; however, as we get older, perhaps we fear change more than we should.
Britain does need change and change from the current ruling party albeit, the future one is not appearing strong on defence, that is true.
Meanwhile, I’ve done something about it with tentative first steps. Wish me luck!
I like you too, David!!
Feeling better now?
“Each and every one of them owns a piece of the turd this country has turned into.”
With respect, go forth and multiply, Marked. I’m not a Tory boy, I have voted for them once since 2010.
Deluded…missed…..I can list every military cut the Tories and Labour have made.
Do you want me to? Go on….ask me….it would make my day. For comparisons stakes.
Then I predict you’ll head for the hills and I won’t get a reply.
And if you’ve been awake, on countless occasions on this forum over the last several years I have stated “both parties are as bad as the other” and called for balance.
Do you want me to waste my time looking back through my comment history to provide some examples???
So take your Tory boy slurs elsewhere….
No, I will not stop it. It is a genuine concern that will remain with me until they prove otherwise when in government.
And I’m fed up to the back teeth with Labour supporters blind to their own party’s complicity in the state of our armed forces today due to their actions when in power from 97 to 2010. I’m not talking about the Tories actions since. Labours.
When I constantly have this debate with Labour supporters here they vanish without trace when I decide to list the cuts that happened then. They have no answer. And I can list them, and more, as you well know.
Ideology is no substitute for knowledge and historical fact, and they cannot dispute it, just vanish, until another occasion when we have the same old conversation again.
You know full bloody well I did not say the Tories are the party of defence, we know they are not. They fund their mates in big industry, and the nuclear deterrent, conventional forces are last. Trotting that old chestnut out “party of defence” to hide Labour’s own strategic blindness does not wash, David.
My fear is that Labour will be as bad if not worse, for their seeming total blindness to geopolitical realities. Again, read Healy’s speeches. I can find the relevant bits to quote if you wish.
Read your own Shadow DS speeches on army manpower, equipment, and assets beyond the NATO European area.
Lets be honest you say? As honest as Amnesty international, CND, Greenpeace, the Greens, Lib Dems, those ripping down statues, kneeling for BLM, the far left of the Labour party, and all the rest that oppose NATO and any western involvement in wider world affairs, and just how any of that is helping face down Russia and China.
I ask you the same question that I asked Magwitch, David. I did not expect a reply from him, there rarely is in these “drive by shooting posts”
Who steps in to the vaccum?
Who? The US? Doing it all while we sit down?
China? Russia? Anyone else?
The west should be engaged shaping the world to suit US, for OUR benefit. Not sitting on our hands.
And here you say –
“Shall we put a flotilla in the Gulf of T31s? Would it make a difference? Seriously, can you spreadsheet a cost/benefit analysis of the difference it would make?”
Do stop putting words in my mouth, David. Where did I ask for that? I want engagement, not withdrawl. We do not have a Flotilla to put there, and that number is totally unnecessary for that commitment.
Again read Healy’s speeches, he is openly questioning military involvement beyond NATO’s area, that is the ME and far east, which is where some of the biggest growth markets are as Europe declines.
He is linking this with criticism of cuts to army manpower. Total hogwash. The army’s biggest issue, as you know as I keep on about it, is how it is organised and sustained to generate usable brigades, not the headline figure of 72k or 75k or 80k.
Healy does this as it is an easy one for him to complain about while making no commitment whatsoever to provide what the forces actually need. Money, logistics, technology, and assets.
Back to the Gulf, The UK has 1 Frigate, 1 Bay, 3 MCMV, and the NSF there. That is sufficient bar any minor changes. We are not “changing the world” with that. We are however, contributing, with assets in the game.
On to the far east, another Healy target to get a bigger army headcount, as I explained above.
2 OPV, 1 Bn in Brunei, 1 heli flight, 1 School, 1 LSF in Singapore, plus elements in Nepal.
How is reducing or removing any of these long standing engagement roles going to make even so much as a slightest bit of difference to generate funds to fund more army posts? Utter pie in the sky Healy drivel. What it would do is instantly impact the UK’s engagement in that area of the world, just as China is rising.
“Let’s get things right at home before we try to change the world.”
Bingo, there it is. I ask again, who fills the vaccum that the west leaves when/if we withdraw, considering the realities of international trade, and the rise of China.
It is not about CHANGING the world. It is about SHAPING the world to the wests advantage.
Because if we don’t, our opponents will try to, for their own purposes, to the wests detriment.
When Labour are in power and the UKs strategic ability to react to world affairs is hamstrung by their actions I will be here to remind you.
When I am totally wrong I will be here to admit it. I am big enough, compared to some on this site.
Til then. No, I will not stop it, David.
And now I have calmed down….no issues with you from me, my friend.
👍
Hugs first.
I’ll read again.
Thank you Daniele.
David
No worries pal.
Well, that was one of the longest rants ever!! And I agree with pretty much all of it. Defence and Diplomacy should go hand in hand, but quite often don’t. And both parties who aspire to power have very little idea of how they actually would like to shape the world and our part in it. Sadly the Brexit debacle has reinforced the “Little Englander” attitude in Parliament, just to add to the sea blindness that was already there.
My apologies. I have gone off on longer ones than that before.
No offence taken, far from it, so no apology needed.
In 1996, the world was in a vastly different place.
All Western States were taking a peace dividend – so the spreadsheet works only so far in listing cuts.
The Economist was looking at China / Russia trade and Western values.
And things could only get better.
Labour squandered its electoral advantage in not bringing the railways back under Government: Bob Reid #2 had shown how it should be done and eventually that became a £40Bn sink hole on the national debt.
The country became riven by BAs and BScs- ask policing, care homes and teaching assistants.
We joyfully engaged in two wars when in fact, we should have opted out of both.
What Government was in power when we opted out of Vietnam?
However, the economic crisis in the late noughties took us down and budgets were necessary – we did what we could.
What is kicking us now, are high house prices – they fuel greed and avarice; £32k per year to work on the platform at Paddington is insane, £40k to conduct a Reading:Gatwick train?
And yet, it’s not a lot of money if you live in that area. I sold my house in Reading for 84K in 1996, today it is worth just shy of £.5m.
Incomes are out of sync.
House prices are out of sync
And China is rising – she is the true threat to our way of life and she has a vengeance lasting hundreds of years.
I was in Berkhamsted School with two Slovaks. The Chinese there said to me “we learn all you can teach us, then we go back to China to destroy you.”
We need our place in the world – Brexit has kneecapped our influence with a self inflicted bullet to the head, but, one frigate, OPV, whatever, is not going to change things.
A fundamental introspection of our values is the only way forward and it will be a brave PM that says wages must come down, the NHS debt must come down and that the Armed Forces must be fit for purpose.
(And the railway nationalised 😉 )
Considering I’m a “Tory Boy with turd on me” I actually agree with your points regards the ongoing privatisation of railways, water, power, and all the rest. I would see them nationally owned, rather than profits going overseas.
But the costs of bringing back to state ownership, I assume it is too far gone to ever change?
I’m also for full environmental protections and the best EU laws in that regard retained for natures benefit, even if that means no UK US trade deal. We are better than that and should not lower standards.
I’m also totally against fox hunting or any cruelty like that, another supposed Tory boy pleasure that is oft thrown at Tory boys like me smelling of shite…..
Wages? We have the RMT or Asef or whoever striking for yet more money for train drivers who are already on a fortune. The same RMT some of who’s flag wavers openly support Russia. A Union rep I know in my region was a foaming at the mouth Corbynite who refused to use the term “Great Britain” and would only say Britain.
Anyone else notice the hypocrisy in this stance with what is happening in the world with China and Russia?
What happens when inflation falls and all these occupations have their wage rises?
“it will be a brave PM that says wages must come down, the NHS debt must come down and that the Armed Forces must be fit for purpose.”
That is never going to happen, with Starmer, with the hard left of your party, or the Tories. The NHS is a hot potato no one will touch, it will just swallow up more and more money. When reform to reduce the waste is suggested, the unions scream.
And all of this discussion has not touched any of the points I made in my rant above, David, so lets get back to defence. Politics rears its head all the time on this forum and I’m amazed the mods put up with it.
My concern is strategic geopolitical realities and, the way I see it, what the opposition is saying is totally out of step to what is happening.
And they are coming in next.
The entire reason for my comment that set off this dialogue.
Daniele, I’ve never called you a Tory Boy, have I?
Not you mate. While reacting to your initial response to my post, I was also reading posts from Marked backslapping you and another sniping at me, which were at his usual standard quality on this site. Have a read of them. And that crap has been been thrown at me too many times on this forum.
I say again, I have both LEFT and RIGHT wing views.
No. I think we both want what is best for our country, I’d buy you a beer, coffee, tea, latte, vegan latte. Feck it, glass of water 🙂
If there is a God, he/she/it/them… 😉 will have a struggle knowing as well.
Hugs!
David
👌GB ❤
Bravo Daniele.
There’s something wrong when it comes to Defence sadly with Labour and conservative party .In fact it’s a mystery 🤔
There’s the problem.
Tony Blair was not wrong on Sierra Leone.
Sadly, he was wrong on many other things.
Gordon Brown was wrong on the QECs, IMHO, better to have had a 30+ ff/dd combo with 12 Astutes and maybe shoe horn in some America class.
Daniele will fill in the details wrt the Army.
Where we are now, who knows?
I’d take RMP to a deployable Div, capable of putting a Brigade into a hotspot, aka thinking soldiers – multilingual, multicultural.
Second Div able to put a Brigade Armoured Fist into a NATO Div.
3rd Div, aka ROYAL, to the northern flank.
4th Div generating reserves for the above.
How much will we save on pensions for the Braid?
Fantasy fleets. 12 Astutes, 30+ ff/dd
Robert Blay could scope out the RAF.
I seem to recall your beloved Tories slashing literally everything to the bone and running the country into the ground in the process…
Read my reply to your other post, I’m not repeating myself. And the post to David too. It describes posters like you who only have the same old Tory cuts line quite well….
Unless of course , Starmer gets a touch of the Blair’s and decides to despatch expeditionary Forces to the four corners of the globe again – “Gunboat Socialism (mkii)”
Well I agree with that posture with them being there to react to events. What I do not agree with is them invading nations, like Blair did.
There is a difference.
I supported the invasion of Iraq. I was wrong, it was built on fabrication and Blair should pay for that. Having said that, Iraq did have WMD programs previously, just not at the level that was spun.
I also 100% agreed with intervention in Afghanistan after 9/11 or anywhere else where terrorists take refuge,
Intervention, NOT occupation. Go in, and get out.
Which is what our SF and the FCF/ LRG/ SOps Bde are for and exactly what I fear Labour will be removing, with their enablers to react.
Making the UK forces a Europe only defence force removes those sort of strategic options and makes us only able to react to others, not control geopolitics to the wests, and our advantage.
Classic is the farce of overruns on the AJAX project…a TYPICAL MOD mess from start….to a ????Mythical FINISH ???? ..!! Billions wasted…wasted when alternatives are virtually everywhere !!
T26 and T31 have fewer crew I understand? And also MCMV posts as that role moves to autonomous with mother vessels?
26 escort type vessels are the minimum number needed for current peacetime commitments- add in some surge capacity, contingency capacity and a few attritional reserves and the real world number is actually around 30- so 10 type 31s, 10-12 type 26s, 6 type 45s and 5 type 32s and that is where we should be.
Does anyone know how the plans are going to up gun the river class OPV’s? It would be something if they were able to help plug some gaps in our frigate deployments.
Plus the RN probably needs shipborne drones, upgraded Wildcats and a few more P-8s for the RAF as soon as.
What plans?
Groan. Not aware of any beyond some suggestions on NL.
Beyond possibly an embarked drone and a SIGINT package, they’re fine for what they are committed for.
If they do start to “plug gaps” do you think a politician might start to see them as a frigate and use them for a role for which they were not intended?
There is an inherrently danger in making the River class “fighty” they have only rudimentary sensors and weapons and would need a significant reconditioning to make them corvette lights or more capable fighting vessels. they have the ability to take a 76mm gun, some deck mounted NSMs and possibly even cannister launched sea ceptor or drones with potentially a single CIWS/ 40mm bofors but then they really would be corvettes.
I’d prefer the funds were pumped into more typr 31s, 32s, 26s to take the escort fleet back up to 26 (minimum) 30 ideal surface escorts.
Britain to increase maritime patrols….with what? Working in partnership with the U.S. a sound bite that means the U.S. can do it for us and if no one notices there will be another sound bite in six months time….but no action.
Our forces are at breaking point.
Leaving aside my favourite complaint the navy have six destroyers at sea for only 20 per cent of their capable time; the number of frigates dwindling and no replacements imminent; a handful of patrol ships with pop guns and precious little else.
The RAF is being cut as we speak C130’s to go early and aah yes the new Atlas won’t be along for what… ten years. AEW, let’s just have three; let’s postpone the decision on the F35 until 2026 ( sorry I had to mention it) and while we’re at it lets keep the Puma and maybe we’ll replace.. but maybe not.
The army is easy. It’s confused, doesn’t know what it wants so just leave it be.
However, we do need to make sure that the forces are as diverse and inclusive as possible and ideally well versed in achieving net zero so we’ll need a good number of people of the right sort to complete the agenda.
If all else fails we wait until the election when labour will turn all the forces over to Europe .
As far as recruiting goes who wants to join?
Maybe time to also order a few more T31s?
Good Morning. The reality of the RN’s condition is depressing to say the least. Whilst we have some superb assets at the top end in the QE’s and Astutes for example, the escort bread-and butter fleet is at the lowest ebb in modern history. The quickest possible way to supplement this segment is to upgrade the batch 2 OPV’s to something approaching Corvette status per the well known article published some years back. This would be a quick and relatively inexpensive way to improve matters with the OPV’s allocated to a frigate or Destroyer in the Gulf for example. SA bought some 800 ton fast patrol vessels in the 60s/70s, relatively heavily armed with Scorpion missiles and 2x 76mm guns. A lot of punch for a little ship! Surely the RN’s 2000 ton OPVs could serve a similar role?
So OPV back to the UK for a 2 + year refit, Trials and testing of its new weapon , sensor and comms fit and its new ME outfit of kit needed to support the WE fits. Gensets, Firepumps, AC units, RO plants, STP to support the new crew numbers you would need to operate everything.
PC sized vessels are OK in waters close to bases where they can go in and out with ease every few days for logistics stops. However they cannot support long deployments or sorties. I knew the USN PC boats very well having run several maintenance packages such as year long refits on them ( 4), emergency dockings (3) and alongside maintenance packages ( dozens) . A week at sea is a long long time on one of those. I went out for 16 hours on one doing contractor sea trials and I wouldnt want to do anymore than that.
Good Morning GB. I absolutely respect your first hand knowledge but just asking questions from the point of view of the ignorance of an Armchair Admiral 😁– the Batch 2’s are more than twice the size of some WW2 destroyers so would they not have at least some reasonable seaworthiness in blue water? Also in the article I read in defence of the OPV’s the author stated that despite their lack of any serious firepower they were fitted out with some of the equipment and specs you mentioned? I hear what you say about refits and your comments are borne out by the very long time these seem to take-almost as much as the new build time(!) but if the need is urgent surely if there is a will this time could be cut? Also understand they can never do what Frigates and Destroyers can but in milder waters close to bases might they be of some value in accompanying the front line?
Just asking-genuinely interested and wonderful to have someone with your knowledge and background to educate me!
Cheers from Durban
Geoff
Of course the Black Swan in the room is why does it take that long?
I was trained on the 119 COVID line – the whole of 3 days; it could have been done in 4 hours.
Then the CO-OP trained me; I set the programme running and pressed accept at the end. A great spaffing waste of money – thankfully, I could just get on with my job.
Goto the northern facing bay platforms at Barrow in Furness and you might not notice that the tracks have been idle for 30 years since 08s, 25s, 40s and 47s were withdrawn and have not been fenced off.
How much money has been spaffed on H&S?
This country needs a serious head wobble moment and bring things back into perspective, does everyone need a degree to walk down the street? Do we need police, teachers, medics to wear LGBQTXYZ123 attire all the time?
So why does it take so long to up-arm a warship?
Rant over.
I agree with you!!!! 😀😍 Get the flags out.
Study the design. Top weight , stability and load calculations. If they cannot be deemed safe then it wont happen. Even if it is deemed a goer, you will need to revamp internal spaces to fit in extra magazines, compartments, accom, mechanical machinery, Pipe and electrical re runs, Switch board loadings. New steel work for weapon system foundations. Tilt Testing, System Integration. Tests and trials. 2 years would be optimistic to be fare.
Here is a personal example .
I proposed an A&A ( Alteration and Addition) for a mezz deck extension on an LPD so you could move equipment from the mezz deck using the OH crane on the stbd side all the way to the beach and directly into an LCU. The proposal was approved and taken forward. That took 12 months of discussions, drawing revisions, electrical re run proposals, Risk management cases, planning and approvals. Manufacture and fitting took another 3 months and that only happened because we where in a refit at the time so the magazines , who’s bulkheads were where the welding was needed, where empty. That was a straight forward steel deck extension with cantilever supports under it at the Fwd end of Bulwarks Vehicle deck extending the mezz deck all the way across the front of the vehicle deck to the Stbd side. It was on a 18000T vessel with loads of space and margin and it was still a pain getting it to happen.
On a small River Class? You would be lucky to get a new 40mm gun and fire control system.
(PS….Didnt even get a Herbet Lott or a book token!)
!
I’ll shut up.
So MCM force doing MSP as it usually does , FF doing MSP as it usually does and CB doing MSP as it does…Unless they bring a River over to help there is little else to be done.
One of the two allocated to the FE perhaps? I would not use any of the others.
That would work …You cannot have none stop jollies without some payback!
To be honest the biggest issue for sealane security at present is piracy in West Africa ( bay of Benin etc) followed by east Africa.
Hey Breaking News-HMS Trent just destroyed a Killer Tomato😃 How is that GB 😁
Just for interest. I have just acquired a “new” second hand book about the Royal Navy around 1980. I know they weren’t all active but strength given as…
4 SSBN
11SSN
17 SS
3 Carriers
14 Destroyers
44 Frigates
8 Amphibious warfare.
42 Mine warfare.
and..
63 fixed wing combat aircraft
96 Helicopters
RFA has 34 vessels listed.
😥
You’re going to hell in a handcart and more than several socks will be worn out after that list.
🙂
🤣
Now were did there go 😕🇬🇧
To the great scrapyard of political ineptitude.😠
96 Helis? I recall the RN bought 80 plus Lynx HAS3 alone? They won’t all have been built yet, sure, but then you had Wessex, Sea Kings, Scout in small ships flights.
More like 200 plus helicopters!
Don’t know. Just what it says in the book for FAA aircraft. 29 Sea King; 39 Wasp; 22 Wessex; 6 Lynx. Either way my friend, a lot more than we’ll ever see.🙄
Assume then that’s front line service.
It’s interesting to compare, but size comparisons are more relevant post Cold War and the further unjustified cuts after Options for Change. Can you imagine the costs of a force that size now?
I has a great big naval encylopedia of world navy’s from 1988. In 3 parts. The detail provided for each vessel was extraordinary. The RN was ranked 3rd of the world’s navies at that time size wise, and 2nd only to the USN for ASW.
My Modern RAF by Terry Gander stated that even with 850 aircraft in Strike Command alone, it said that the RAF was too small for the task it might have to carry out.
Times change.
Times have certainly changed and in our case at least not for the better. Costs are hellish these days but in the late eighties defence was at 4.6 per cent. Now it’s an arguable 2.0 per cent and even the figures we do have are out of sinc with what was included decades ago.
Looking at size alone the U.S. has not altered much and has increased in capability; China has risen dramatically; Japan too in hulls and capability; most European states are more or less where they were in 1980.
Two navies have dropped like a stone… USSR/Russia and the U.K. We know what happened to the first. The second can only be down to awful planning, incompetence by the MOD and the services themselves and last but not least forty years of politicians of all parties who do damn all.
When I started posting some years ago now the main source of concern here was about the demise of the Commando Force. Now there are problems in every service and I really cannot see how they are ever going to be solved . If anything I think it’s going to get worse.
At this point it maybe worth considering a report in Navy Lookout which summerised the status of the RN fleet. March 23.
It reported that the RN had 7 out of its total 18 frigates and destroyers available. ( soon to be 17).
I don’t know how real this is, but at Warships mag, there is a rumour that the RN will buy some/all of the 4 Irish Navy Samuel Beckett class opv, to fill the gap. The Irish do not have enough trained sailors, so these ships are laid up. A lot newer than T23 & built at Appledore.
I’d read that as well, I thought only 2 of the Samuel Beckett class were in reserve fleet/ not active- if we could purchase them and put them through a decent reconditioning we would end up with potentially quite a capable corvette sized warships. 76mm oto gun, NSM sets (8-12 missiles) sea ceptor silo (maybe 24) as well as 1-2 ciws (phalanx or/ bofors 40mms. They would make quite useful additional warships-especially for patrols around uk territorial waters and escorting pesky Ruskfascist interlopers.
Hopefully the MOD will offer say £100 million for the pair and then fit them out- £25-30 million each should do it- so for £160 million we would in theory get 2 decent corvette type warships.- ideal for gulf duties/ Falklands guardship duties and/or UK fleet ready escort duties.
In fact I’d go further and see if the Irish naval service will sell all 4 to us.
If we want them in service quickly, we will have to limit the changes we make. I suspect the budget would not allow that either.