HMS Queen Elizabeth will now complete a period of operational sea training.
The vessel departed Portsmouth yesterday in order to complete ‘Fleet Operational Sea Training’ or ‘FOST’.
HMS Queen Elizabeth is one of the most powerful vessels ever constructed for the Royal Navy and is capable of carrying up to 40 aircraft.
The Royal Navy say here that the ship’s two propellers weigh 33 tonnes each. The powerplant behind them generates enough power to run 1000 family cars.
What is FOST?
According to the Royal Navy here:
“From the Naval Bases at Portsmouth, Plymouth, the Clyde in Scotland and a small team at Northwood in Middlesex, Fleet Operational Sea Training (FOST) provides training for all surface ships, submarines, Royal Fleet Auxiliaries and Strike Groups of the Royal Navy by a dedicated team of experts, led by Commander Fleet Operational Sea Training (COM FOST).
Together with land and air units and with increasing numbers of NATO and foreign participants conducting training under its guidance, FOST has established and maintains a worldwide reputation for excellence.”
Most powerful vessel plus thirty plus F35 and associated support equals powerful warship, otherwise???
Don’t forget all the weetabix on board!
Hi Tim…this F35 story has been going on for so long they could turn into a cereal! 😂
🤓
Perhaps they mean the engines?
BRRRRRRMMM!😉
To be fair it is powerful because it is capable of carrying and delivering powerful weapons. That is the nature of a deterent. If you have to use it it is perhaps less powerful. 😀 It will be nice when we have more F35s & drones though.
And a full compliment of Asw Merlin’s on board as well.
Absolutely correct.
I think this gives us a good overview of the current problems facing the F-35 programme. Follow the links highlighted in blue for a more in-depth assessment.
https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2022/03/f-35-program-stagnated-in-2021-but-dod-testing-office-hiding-full-extent-of-problem/
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program appears to be in a state of suspended development, with little progress made in 2021 toward improving its lacklustre performance.
The latest report by the Pentagon’s Director, Operational Test & Evaluation (DOT&E) reveals stagnation and even backsliding in some fleet reliability measures. And that’s just the public DOT&E report.
In an unprecedented move, DOT&E is concealing many of the key details of the F-35’s poor performance. For the first time ever, the testing office created a non-public “controlled unclassified information” version of its report, and although there is much overlap between the two versions, the meaningful details about the ever-troubled program are only included in the non-public one.
FY2021 DOT&E Annual Report CUI Version
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21200548-fy2021-dote-annual-report-cui-version
Well, Nigel….what a read. There is an old saying…”lies, damn lies and statistics” or something close. These two reports have it all. What a mess. I’ve been pressing for us to get a move on with orders but if half of each of these reports is true (who knows where the truth lies) you have to wonder whether we should be looking at alternatives, at least for the RAF.
I’m a bit limited for time today but will have another read tomorrow. Thanks for the tip.
Your welcome! And as I mentioned in an earlier thread.
First flown on 11.06.2008
Clearly, they will have to take into account the Block 4 upgrade (2029) and the cost of upgrading the engine.
An odd way to describe the F-35B by Air Marshal Knighton. I’m beginning to understand why.
“If you want rough numbers, about 15 of them will be in maintenance, but as I said, that will evolve as we understand more about how we maintain this thing and how long it takes.”
F135 engine upgrade best choice for F-35, says Raytheon Technologies boss
“Everybody understands that you’re going to need more power and better fuel efficiency from that engine,” he says, adding: “that’s something that we’re working with the customer on.”
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/f135-engine-upgrade-best-choice-for-f-35-says-raytheon-technologies-boss/147268.article
“GE’s engine is uniquely designed to fit both the F-35A and F-35C without any structural modifications to either airframe, enabling improved aircraft range, acceleration and cooling power to accommodate next-generation mission systems (like laser weapons), while ensuring better durability and higher availability.
While General Electric states that its XA100 can be used on the F-35A and C, it does not discuss the B model, which should continue to rely on the current Pratt & Whitney F135s, which would call into question the future availability of the Bravo, vertical-landing version of the F-35.”
https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/03/ge-begins-testing-of-its-xa100-adaptive-cycle-engine-for-the-f-35/
And apart from f 35 and Merlin ASW, nothing to defend itself with (joke).
More Fost training? There must have been a huge change of crew I thought QE was combat ready or is the fact we have not embarked a Squadron of F35bs since CSG21 all is now a bit rusty?
Or maybe FOST is viewed as being very important and needed to test some changes made to the ship. Particularly given the heightened tensions?
Supportive bloke. The ships received upgraded software recently and much of this training are carried out on simulators.
Maybe Flag officer training is at a loose end.
When are we going to have a continuous at sea carrier with a wing of F35s ready to go at a moments notice? This is not a criticism by any means, the QEs we’re built as intended to project british air power around the globe.
I have said in previous posts months ago that we should be watching China, Iran and North Korea closely since the invasion of Ukraine and as part of our arsenal of deterence a fully spamed up carrier floating around the oggin would clearly show any state that seeks to take advantage of the current situation to think twice. We have to play our part with our partners and allies or are we going to wait for another invasion to happen before we do anything?
I was aware that there was due a network upgraded – this was announced a long while back. This will probably have meant replacing all of the network switches and some cabling to bring it up to 10Gb spine. So I can understand why that needs a shakeout.
I was aware the data networks,cabling and Giga data were already built in for upgrades.
This includes data traffic for the use and control of autonomous vehicles and real time istar.
When QEC was designed it wasn’t all 1Gb…..in fact I don’t think any of it was!
The links between the switches will have needed an upgrade too as they were probably CAT5e and would have needed to be CAT7e or full fibre.
Interesting, so POW will have to go through the same shakedown and she has only just returned from excersise in the Arctic.
MOD stopped giving that sort of detail out, in public view, a good few years back.
Given how much later POW was built it might well have been baked in from the start.
It was public that improvements were made from QEC to POW.
The navy bangs up its own costs with uncoordinated time in dock for all the fleet
NaB might have input but I think time in dock is now very, very carefully costed.
The old days of it being a bit random according to an Admiral’s whim and are long gone.
And quite rightly so.
Wednesday 4 May 2022 07:37, UK
“North Korea fires ballistic missile into sea off its east coast, says Japan and South Korea
Pyongyang has recently stepped up weapons tests, resuming long-range missile launches for first time since 2017 in March. Officials in Seoul and Washington say it may also be preparing for a new round of nuclear tests.”
https://news.sky.com/story/north-korea-fires-ballistic-missile-into-sea-off-its-east-coast-says-japan-and-south-korea-12605080
It’s a pity the RAF have lost its nuke sniffers. The last time NK let one off was in 2006 and I ended up in Kadena afb Okinawa.
Can the nuke sniffer parts not be fitted to any plane? I thought they were only installed on the vc10 when required.
North korea couldn’t give a flying fudge if the Royal Navy sail near by. They’re concern is South Korea, Japan, USA as it should be. Also keeping China and Russia as friends may be a concern.
At these times I’m much happier the Royal Navy being nearer to home able to deploy at short notice.
The U.K. forces just aren’t able to be world wide. Just don’t have the numbers. While they can deploy world wide they can’t have the ability to permanently have fleets in different areas.
Tell that to UK government, we are committed to our allies in the South China Sea and Pacific regions that is what csg 21 was all about. The kit cannot be fitted to any other aircraft as there was no plan to do so and its another capability lost.
I’m not sure what the nuke sniffer sensors are now. In the past I thought it was basically a particle collector you open when ur where u want to be. Let the air pass through it and look at what particles it’s collected when on the ground.
Ahh the VC10. Loved the look of those aircraft.
lol, The US Boeing WC-135 is very busy flying sorties out of Mildenhall I’ve been told.
Except all those admirals are now at desks in the admiralty
FOST training is one of the reason’s why the RN is so highly regarded around the world. The USN 7th fleet also is a pretty good deterrent in that part of the world.
Fost is extremely and high intensity to get any ship and crew deployed for combat and is highly regarded but that wasn’t the point I was making.
I don’t think it was ever envisaged that we would have one carrier continuously at sea with a full air wing. Has WW3 started? If that was the intention we should have bought 3 or 4 and provided the crews for all of them. I recall it being said that we should have 70% chance of one carrier being deployable with a 2 carrier purchase, overall, over the life of the carriers.
I’ve said before that I don’t think either of the carrier’s should ever put so sea without escorts and f 35b already loaded. Far too important for them to just bimble out of Pompey for operational needs empty, may as well paint the Gosport ferry grey and stick a cardboard aircraft on it QEAandPOW are not frigates who simply put to sea and embark their chopper from culdrose when in range this isn’t the way anyone else would do this an American carrier doesn’t sail without the rest of its escort group with it. We’re not China or India, we can’t lose our most valuable asset because some penpusher worrying about the fuel costs
Don’t know much about FOST training but in the army you were always training and much of that was observed by ‘higher formation’. In Cold War times NATO would periodically deploy an Operational Readiness Team to see how quickly and well your unit could crash out of barracks on Exercise Active Edge. In BATUS training, BG exercises were very closely observed and Reports written; more than one CO’S career was written off due to a bad BATUS report so I was told.
FOST was known as Flag Officer Sea Training based at Portland during my time in the RN in the 50/60s
I’ll never forget one FOST I went through especially when some wag thought it would be a laugh to tape a couple of tins together and paint the WORD BOMB on it and then when the ship was called. To emergency stations he had vanish! If you’re reading this Paul Simpsoni wouldn’t have told anyone that it was you..
With Monday looming I can see a number of so-called exercises being used to cover what can only be a build-up to war? The burning question is, are the QE Class safer at sea than in port if the balloon goes up? The prospect of a limited exchange can not be ruled out between Russia and NATO, plus the fact, the UK has been waving its flag viciously at Putin in recent weeks, which could result in a demonstration of power from him against just the UK? A bit like driving a brilliant yellow sports car too fast on a motorway….’Hello Mr. Policeman.’ I’m not suggesting the UK is wrong to poke and grind the Russians over its invasion, but from what I’ve seen on Russian TV, it looks like they are smoking something nasty? We await Putin and Monday’s day of remembrance with some trepidation!
Russian Forces are stretched trying to invade a smaller neighbour, with a Second rate (at best) armed forces. I somewhat doubt the Russians would attempt even a limited strike against NATO, and if they did they would regret it.
I’m not talking about a land action as you are correct about limited options there. No, it’s a sea-launched threat that may be the most likely scenario. Today Putin is suggesting a step up in attacks on Ukrainian supply lines to help slow down new weapons from the West.
Aye a second rate armed forces with massive support in intel and who knows what else from the US of A . The US are running the show in Ukraine not Ukraine it’s blatantly obvious for everyone to see.
and the killing death destruction and misery goes on all cheered for by the call of duty crowd in here it’s a sad sad state of affairs.
🏴🇬🇧
Have the US not been involved since 2014, possibly even earlier?
Aye the US have been involved heavily since then and since it was down to them the Democratically elected gov was ousted in 2013/14 in their regime change operation leading to all this shit.
Meanwhile the Western media look the other way as the nice Ukrainian regime sanction a campaign of kidnap torture and assassination of any Ukrainian official or lawmaker engaged in de-escalation talks with Russia ( aimed at sparing the local population from death and misery) who they accuse of collaborating with Russia.
Aye this war is being used as an excuse by the “good guys”to disappear, torture , kill a long list of journalists, human rights activists, opposition government officials, lefty organisations , free speech activists , and anyone else who is a critic of wee Volod.
Even before all this shit in 2016 a UN OHCR report found that arbitrary detention, forced disappearances, torture and ill treatment of detainees was common practice by the SBU. The Human rights watch accuse them of systematically torturing political opponents and dissidents with impunity.
I know I know Russia will control the UN OHCR and be running the human rights watch so has to be propaganda shit anything negative about Ukraine and how they conduct themselves is propaganda😂 aye………..
I support neither of the protagonist’s in this pointless war and advocate the money being pished down the drain by our inept politicians on it is redirected to our own armed forces.👍🏻🇬🇧
🏴🇬🇧
It’s payback for the polonium and Novochok poisonings, an act of war in all but name. Why keep the carriers in port? They were built for a reason, a carrier deployed east of Suez and let’s face it we have already built port facilities in Barhain, Oman and not forgetting the facility in Singapore for this very reason. Carriers are not going to be that useful in the Ukrainian confrontation it would be rather silly to put put a carrier in the Black Sea. The danger is this situation could expand further afield. Force protection and deterrence.
Murice I see no sign that we are mobilising for a potential war, which is something that is very difficult to hide.
Sadly our carriers are vulnerable wherever they are operating. US and French nuclear subs in Scotland could be construed as unusual? 8000 British troops and 72 CH2’s deployed on exercise in Europe, could be more than a preplanned operation?
I’m surprised by the apparent lack of urgency in terms of some sort of civil defence announcements. Apart from frightening the nation should the Government be making some plans public? In the 1950’s civil defence exercises were commonplace and you would see the Columns moving around the roads. I do know that much of that infrastructure has gone, but something should be better than nothing? After all, Russia has formally warned the West of the use of nuclear weapons and we either dismiss it as vacuous or a real possibility?
“Much of that infrastructure has gone”. No, it has all gone. At the current time there is not even a warning system: the sirens and the system that drove them have all gone and the mobile phone based replacement is held up thanks to a funding argument between the MoD and the HO……
True. All dismantled with unseemly haste in the early 90s to achieve a peace dividend. Infrastructure and organisations cannot be rebuilt quickly and would require billions of pounds.
It’s common curtsey and to avoid any misunderstanding that NATO informs the Russians that excersise and planned or are taking place. The Russians are fully aware that NATO is reinforcing It’s northern flank. If we were building up to war there would be a general mobilisation. That in a nutshell would be seen as a direct threat. As for the carriers as I have said we must be prepared for the possibility of the threats from China, Iran and North Korea.
Civil defence in the 50s and the attitude of the populous is very different to today’s. It was also well known that shelters from an all out nuclear war was next to pointless. Many of the now decommissioned bunkers, Rotor bunkers where built to keep local and national government going.
I know that we did not invest in mass public shelters as the Americans did but the below ground bunkers for seats of regional government etc surely offered very good protection. Not every site was likely to receive a massive nuclear attack. Some were actually secret.
Graham all the ROTOR Bunkers built in the 50ts and 60ts and other regional Bunkers were sold off one in Wiltshire was found to have been converted into a Cannibis factory if you go on you tube there’s a whole array of videos with urban explorers visiting around the UK now disused Bunkers alot had been RAF then handed to Regional government as provincial Hqs for the Cold War in Hindsight not a good idea as what is happening now has made us aware of how unstable situations thousands of miles away can have repercussions here
Hi Tommo,
When I lived in East Anglia, a popular tourist attraction was ‘the Secret Bunker’ at Kelvedon Hatch. Yes, certainly aware that everything has gone except the bunker for national government. All binned with indecent haste – and ROC and UKWMO disbanded too. I thought it was wildly optimistic at the time – NATO, bulwark against Soviet/Russian adventurism in Europe’ remained, sensibly.
It’s not so much that Graham, it’s not the initial blasts that will kill everyone. It will be the lack of food and starvation that will effectively kill everyone. There is no way around that, 100 nuclear weapons will effectively remove 10% of the worlds food supply for a decade, thousands of nuclear weapons mean we will not be growing any food crops for a decade. You may get a few hunter gatherer societies that hang on but that will be because they are aready able to live in that way. But in all probably the human race will go out along with most large land mammals and a lot of fish.
It’s the effects of black soot that will kill most/all people in a full nuclear exchange.
Nothing unusual about us/fr subs in faslane nor the exercises even if they seem larger than in the recent past, not surprising given what’s happening, but we used to be able commit a lot more. Also it’s not the 50s anymore and I doubt this generation would pay much attention
I don’t think civil defence for nuclear strikes is practiced as it was found to be pretty pointless when the hydrogen bomb arrived. I remember they did an exercise back in the 70/80s as to how effective civil defence would be. I think I got stopped early and the results hidden as it was terrible.
A lot depended on the yield of the weapon, whether it was ground burst or air burst and whether the thing actually landed near you. There was a strange fallacy that every inhabited area of the country would be hit by nuclear weapons and that most of the population would be killed. That was never the case. Many would have survived. The advice in ‘Protect and Survive’ was widely mocked but was useful and practical and may save your life in the event of a near miss. The ROF and UKWMO were efficient and well equipped and run and would have been very useful. I have seen a bunker for a seat of regional government and it would have been very effective and could have survived a near miss. Clearly populations who stayed put in target areas and who ignored Protect and Survive would have been instant casualties.
All carriers are vulnerable, indeed everything in wartime is vulnerable, that is the nature of war. But we aren’t at war and unless Putin really loses his marbles he won’t provoke a war with NATO. Instead like the bully he is, he’ll make threats to one and all but will only ever actually pick on guys smaller than him.
No British government would warn the population of impending war involving the homeland unless it was highly likely, much less attempt to recreate Civil Defence, a nigh impossible task to achieve quickly and effectively. CD is all gone and has been since the early 90s.
Agree NATO I’m sure are on their guard but they should probably ensure maximum deployed effort short of warfare before the Russians do something stupid to celebrate their 9th May victory day parade.
Its going to be a hollowed out victory day parade in Red square. Most of Russia’s best combat units and equipment are either engaged in the war in Ukraine or have been destroyed in that war. Chances of an unhinged Putin delivering something he can call a victory….minimum.
Let us hope so and I’m sure Putin will be behind bulletproof screens!
Maybe the viewing platform floor might conveniently collapse…
“ the UK has been waving its flag viciously at Putin”…
How does someone wave a flag “viciously”?… 🤷🏻♂️
If Putin does decide to ‘have a go’ it’ll be at something below what would trigger Article 5… though given Russia’s recent performance the U.K. might not need its NATI allies to defeat Russia! 😆
So something ‘non kinetic’ such as a cyber attack. Or maybe some FSB agents with some more polonium/Novichok? The danger to Putin is that anything like this is likely to result in even more weapons going from the U.K. to Ukraine.
A further political danger to Putin is Finland and Sweden joining NATO.
Underwater cables again, degrading the Internet? They’ve been practising that.
It’s my blasted spell checker, read vigorously.🙂
NATO will only go to war with Russia if Russia invades or attacks a NATO country. Surely that has been said many times?
Definately safer at sea under escort & harder to find, track or target. In port they’re safe from sub torpedo attacks but the Russians know exactly where they are; an easy target for missile strike.
Just putting a little note ,Remembering D80 Hms Sheffield 40yrs how time has slipped through my fingers like Sand I’m old now those lads are forever young your not forgotten
Never forgotten.
👍👍👍
Not forgotten. God bless them all.
👍👍👍
👍👍👍
✌God bless them all and many, many others.
And the same from us down here too. 🇦🇺 🇳🇿 🇬🇧
👍👍👍
Big respect to all. We shall remember them.
👍👍👍
👍👍👍thanks
It’s just routine after BOST , any vessels of the RN will go one to COST all implemented by FOST , COST ensures that what was learnt during BOST is keeped in practise and crews are all learning even new drafties COST irons out the creases
Very well put.
Cheers,SB I no longer have to don Anti flash when the doorbell rings
OK Tommo,
I’ve got to ask – COST means ??? Continuation Operational Sea Training ???
I found out what CORSAIR means in UK mil speak, Communter Output for REME Support of AIRcraft but COST wasn’t listed. Not the first time an acronym I needed wasn’t listed either 🤔
Cheers CR
PS That post looked like a round in Pointless 🙂
Welll it LOST me anyway…
Spot on Chariotrider, Basic operational Sea Training ,Continuationsl Operational Sea Training Pissed Off Sea Training when you’ve got too do it again 😀
Got to keep current. People come and go so got to keep training at maximum level. We are seeing what bad training brings with Russians just now.
Monkey spanker, FOST learnt alot after our 74 days down south ,too ensure that what had happened wouldn’t happen again , the Lads who had been through hell and had experience would often have right set too with the Portland Fost Staff but that’s how we grew you can’t be wrapped in cottonwool when your Home and your Oppos are burning around you , Fight or Flight , flight is not an option when at sea
Greetings All
Of topic but relevant, 40 years ago today HMS Sheffield was sunk by Exocet with a loss of 20 souls.
Greetings Klonkie, I think there’s a new T26 HMS Sheffield to carry on the name which will be a living reminder.
Saw a photo on twitter the other day showing the 20 CAMM, 2×6+2×4, configuration on your two Anzac frigates. Curious as to why NZ didn’t go for the quad CAMM, 6×4 as the Canadian’s have on their T26s? I’m sure it’s been brought up before but if someone can remind me, was it a cost, weight, ease of operation reason?
I wonder too with the Chinese encroachment into Solomons/Kirribati if your frigates/P-8s might get some NSM/JSMs as the RAN/RAAF are? I’d like to see the RAN get a couple more diesel subs in the interim too. Is NZ getting any air/sea drones of any sort? You have a lot of sea to look over around you!
A squadron of fighter jets wouldn’t go amiss for NZ either. They’ve nothing to intercept anything at the moment.
You have my vote Frank . Dumbest move by the Helen Clark government removing the RNZAF combat wing circa 2000. But, according to Helen (I’m paraphrasing) “We live in a benign environment in the South Pacific with no perceived threat” .
Oh God, give me strength!
Hi Quentin. Good valid points you raise. I think NZ’s informal defence policy is to lean our our big strong cousins across the ditch!
Seriously though, I do know there is interest in drone UAV tech in the RNZAF. l doubt it would be anything like the the Global Hawk RAAF is receiving though. On the plus side, our first P8 should be in service in 2024.
I’m keen to see the shape of RNZN future frigate(all two of them). I suspect it’s likely to be in a similar class of the Type 31, alas no Type 26 for us!. Hopefully properly up armed. CAMM is a good step forward, but sadly no anti ship missile capability .
👍👍👍 cheers Klonkie
Hi Tommo. So sorry Mate, I see you posted exactly the same thing before me so apologies for doubling up. I’ve been reflecting a lot on the Falkland’s campaign re the 40th anniversary.
I do think it was a shame the Simonstown accord had been dissolved . It would have been useful for the RN to access the modern and extended dockyard. I doubt if the UK asked or if the SA government offered. Anyhow, politics of the day I guess.
That’s alright Klonkie, at least you put a post up for those lads still on patrol , like I put I’m Old now they will be forever young One little dit about Simonstown or South Africa was the Task force got lost in a fog bank ,when it clear we could see Tabletop mountain Cape Town and HMS Invicible was already there as South African Gaurd Ship for the whole of the Conflict But at the time of OP Corporate Britian didn’t want too be seen as giving Apartheid government any Kudos i f they had offered their dockyard amenities too the Taskforce
It’s a good point Tommo. The SA government would have tried to milk it for all it’s worth. So politically theUK did the right thing .
👍,cheers Klonkie
At the risk of being pedantic- the ship is capable of carrying considerably more than 40 aircraft. The limit of ’40’ is set by the operating concept not the physical capacity.
Ssßh your have the Health and Safety executive snooping around Air Arm by law are only permitted too work 8 hrs a day thanks too health and safety
Sigh… Aircraft carriers have NO power of their own, it’s all in the air wing, which in this case is too small. No doubt the people will do their jobs well, but they need the tools. :wpds_smile:
“Up to 40 aircraft”. How many UK aircraft do we have on the two carriers? It’s ok saying they are the most powerful ships ever built for the RN but that is no use if we can’t do anything without the USA giving us permission to lend their men and equipment.
It’s the only time The USMC can get a drink at sea when embarked on the QE class
At a push we could probably force 15 F35’s onto a carrier currently, the remaining 25 ‘aircraft’ could easily be made up from Merlin, Wildcat and Apache then you have 40 aircraft not needing anyone’s permission to field the carrier.
2 carriers, we have 2 carriers not 1. What is the second going to use? That is not even counting a decent escort. Getting 2 of the type 45 destroyers working and manned at the same time as both carriers would need a miracle.
Its honestly getting tiring saying this, the reason we have 2 is that 1 is available at all times, it was not a case of build 2 so 2 are available at all times.
Well it was a miracle that 2 T45’s deployed for about 50% of the first world tour then. T23 are being upgraded massively with air defence assets plus T26 is getting close. If needed 2 T45s would be available quite easily,
To keep one active at all times under your scenario would mean no break at all for the airmen or aircraft. We need 2 sets of everything so they get a break too.