A Royal Air Force C-17 Globemaster has transported vital humanitarian aid to Egypt for delivery to civilians in Gaza, say the Royal Air Force.
The heavy lift transport aircraft delivered 21 tonnes of lifesaving aid from the UK on behalf of the FCDO, including medical supplies and water filters.
“The flight departed RAF Brize Norton this morning and was the first delivery of humanitarian support from the UK for the Occupied Palestinian Territories. It included 76,800 wound care packs, 1350 water filters and 2560 solar lights and will be distributed by the Egyptian Red Crescent.”
āThe RAF has a long-standing commitment to providing vital aid, rapidly, wherever it is needed. I am proud that we have been able to deliver the UKās first humanitarian aid for those civilians in Gaza that need it most.ā
Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Knighton, Chief of the Air Staff, was quoted as saying:
“The RAF has a long-standing commitment to providing vital aid, rapidly, wherever it is needed. I am proud that we have been able to deliver the UKās first humanitarian aid for those civilians in Gaza that need it most.”
Grant Shapps, Defence Secretary, said:
“Today’s airlift is a clear demonstration of the UK’s commitment to helping those most in need – rapidly deploying the RAF to get life-saving aid into the region.”
Good work guys ( and gals) š C-17ā¦.great investment!
C-17 is certainly a notable (and somewhat rare) success story for defence procurement
How is the weather in Russia?
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Well it got the type into service with the RAF. Thatās the main thing. Iāve never seen a cost comparison of the lease compared to the costs if they had been purchased initially
Daily Telegraph, 1 Sept 2008, reported MoD figures that showed that buying outright the first 4 C-17 would have cost Ā£520m, but Gordon Brown insisted on a lease that cost Ā£769 million over 8 years, plus a further Ā£220 million to buy them at that point. A total of Ā£989 million, or Ā£469m more than buying them in the first place.
I think at the time he had a strategy of lease procurement across the public sector because it didn’t count against the public sector borrowing requirement, which was politically convenient. Then international governmental accounting rules changed and the whole lot was capitalised amounting to around an extra 4% against psbr. Spectacularly backfired because he could have borrowed for capital purchase at a much less cost of capital. That’s why PFI’S are so expensive amongst other reasons.
It is public knowledge that the RAF wanted 12 C-17. If Gordon had not insisted on the lease, we could have got at least 10 for the same money as 8.
Ah no, it most certainly wasn’t. The lease contract was highly restrictive, in terms of use and hours used. The RAF however, massively outflew the contracted flying hours. This was due to the 4 leased aircraft aircraft supporting operations in both Iraq and Afghanistan as well as other world wide commitments. Basically the aircraft flew something like 4 years of contracted flying hours in 9 months. The MoD had to pay huge penalties. It was getting out of hand. So the MoD bought the aircraft to stop the liquid damages. What is stated in Wiki about buying the aircraft at the end of the lease is not true.
The aircraft has proved to be an absolute workhorse. It is utilised far more excessively than originally planned. Not bad for a short term stop gap until the A400M was ready.
I do not understand why UKDJ has pulled my comment on the “Ā£469m wasted on leasing cargo planes”, as that is a direct quote from The Daily Telegraph, page 8, Monday, 1st Sept 2008.
I assume incorrectly but the warzone is reporting RAF c130s have been involved in addition to a400m. I thought the c130s were retired.
Now it just needs to get through the border and to where itās needed. That is probably much harder.
Itās a toxic situation over there just now and negotiations are going to have to take place at some point.
The hatred for Israel grows everyday the longer they take to do what they want to do. Hamas are putting the Gaza civilians through an absolute nightmare.
I get Israel wants to stop the attacks once and for all but thatās a really tall order.
They need to make the appeal to be violent and hate Israel less than the appeal to get along peacefully. Getting to that situation is a massive undertaking.
It is a very tough call as Hamas seem to be the ones preventing their own people leaving as they know as soon as the human shield(s) leaves the whole place is going to be flattened.
I donāt think a cease fire is the answer, that will allow Hamas time to steal more aid, the answer is to let the civilians exit.
Problem is that Hamas will just mingle with themā¦ā¦and do their thing in the refugee campsā¦ā¦
That said Isreal cannot be expect to sit and tolerate daily bombardment of cross border atrocities.
Hamas started this with their āspectacularāā¦ā¦
Egypt have closed the border not Hamas. There are strict border controls and lengthy checks for anyone who wants to leave. In 2008 Hamas blew holes in the wall Egypt built to allow thousands of Palestinians out and into the Sinai. This war has been going on since the creation of the Israeli state. In my opinion it won’t end until Israel signs up to the two state solution. Which judging by the way they are colonising the west bank they aren’t likely to do.
Israel signed up to the two state solution decades ago. They can’t afford to let Palestinians and the subsequent flood of Arabs claiming to be Palestinians anywhere near their democracy. All that remains is two state. The West Bank settlements are a red herring. There were many settlements in Gaza until the Israelis withdrew and took all the settlements with them.
It’s also not about the Rafah border, which is just as well, because the Egyptians will never let Gazans into their country en mass either. Hamas are a cancer nobody wants.
The Israelis have asked the Palestians to leave Gaza City and the North. That is where they want to fight with as few civilians getting in the way as possible. Once all the hidey holes are flattened, tunnels collapsed and Hamas fighters killed, there will be a different strategy for South Gaza, but it will lead to the same thing. Hamas infrastructure will be dismantled.
A shame that the rest of the political/national spectrum does not have the facts and the commonsense that you have shown in your comment.
Hamas does not give a fig for the Gazan Arabs as with Hezbollah and the rest of the Islamic world their aim is hegemony by any means including that which is proclaimed in the 137 Suras demanded within the Qoran, including to lie, to murder to proselytize…to them the ends justifies the means.
Isreal signed up to the two state solution in 1947 as it agreed with and was willing to sign the two state solution and Jerusalem becoming an international city for all faiths as per the UN partition of Palestine mandateā¦.unfortunately the Arab states refused to sign it and the moment the Uk pulled out from the mandate the Arab states invaded and tried to remove Israel from the mapā¦unfortunately that was the sad act that has created the ongoing conflictā¦if Jordan, Egypt and Syria had not invaded and tried to destroy Israel its very likely the two state solution would have had a chance..if Palestine and Israel had to just had to deal with the extremists on both sides in 1947 itās likely we would have a stable two state solutionā¦as it is Isreal has spent 75 Years of almost none stop fighting and suffering attacks from extremists and Arab states and the Palestinian arabs have suffered 75 years under a military that sees danger everywhere and has either occupied or fenced off Gaza and the West Bankā¦this means that now less than 40% of Israelās and less than 39% of Palestinian arabs want a two state solutionā¦the death and hatred is very deep and both populations live with that fact that elements of the other population want to utterly destroy themā¦.
The simple fact is Hamas will never allow Isreal to live in peace..when they say from the river to the sea they mean the total destruction of Israel and removal of the Jewish people from Israel. They will also accept nothing less than an Islamic state in the whole of Palestineā¦what does Isreal do..what would you do if you knew a government ( and Hamas is the government of Gaza) wanted nothing less than your total destruction. As for the other side the more radical Zionistās simply feel they have a right to claim any of Palestinian no matter who lives there and they will to pretty much do anything to take that landā¦they are just as wrong although not so directly barbaric as Hamas.
then you have to remember why the Palestinian Arabs were living there in the first place and that there were so few Jews left in the levant..that was because Jews had suffered constant waves of ethnic cleaning in the levant over 2000 yearsā¦the reason there were so many Jews in Europeā¦..they had been displaced by the classic empires ( Greek then roman) then captured and sold into slavery by Christian crusaders and then forced out by the Muslim kingdoms as they drove out the last of the crusaders kingdomsā¦
The levant has been a bloodbath of the three great religions of the book for a 1000 yearsā¦.best not just blame Israelā¦as itās been a blood bath that was firmly created by Christian and Muslim..with the Jew being the powerless victim for 1000 yearsā¦so Isreal is a late comer and only just started playing the same game as the Christianās and Muslimsā¦ infact Zionism was born of the fact the Christian Europe decided it was time to start considering what to do about the Jewish problem in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century and that solution was ā kill the Jews and drive them outā with 50 years of progroms of which the holocaust was simply the largestā¦there were still progroms going on in Europe in 1946..the Jews were driven from the holy land by Christianās and Muslims then the Christianās made a good effort at killing off the Jews in Europe the late 19c and early 20c..leading them to flee back to the holy land only to face the combined forces of all the Arab states trying to destroy them in 1947ā¦there is a very good reason the state of Israel is not particularly prone to being reasonable when attacked..is it proportional what itās doing now in Gaza..no itās horribleā¦.is what is happening in GAZA wrongā¦. yesā¦is it all on Israelā¦nope, not justā¦this particular round of barbarism and war was sparked by Hamas butchering Jews in a progromā¦
sorry to rant but the Christian west and Muslim east have literally spent most of their history including modern history trying to destroy the Jewish people for no other reason than they exist..and then blames them for suddenly giving back what they have receivedā¦..what do you think the UK would do to the republic of Ireland if it had a radical nationalist extremism catholic government that published a manifesto to destroy the UK and return the British isles to Catholicisā¦ then proceed to constantly launch rockets at the UK over a couple of decadesā¦as well as getting young men to walk onto busses and blow them up..killing UK civilians every year ( not once, but all the time)..then launch in one go launching 7000 rockets..breaching our borders with 1000 fighters and slaughtering raping, mutilate or kidnap every UK resident they could findā¦.all the while fortifying every town in Ireland and burying their armed forces under civilian structuresā¦what would the UK government do ? Would we be reasonable or would we perchance do what the US and UK did to iraq.
But this is horrible and needs to endā¦ but what is needed is not just on Isrealā¦itās a proper planā¦What is need is:
1)a pause in the fighting,
2)Egypt to open its boarders ( which they donāt want to do because Hamas want to help overthrow the Egyptian government In The Sinai )..allow the aid inā¦move all the civilians to safety in Egyptā¦
3)destroy Hamas rout and branch in Gaza
3) removed all the Jews settlers from the West Bank,
4) move fatah into Gaza..move the population back in and have an international focus on rebuilding gaza
5) have a UN cordon around Gaza to protect Israel from the extremists..who will continue to try and attack Israel as long as it exists.
6) have a un cordon around the West Bank to prevent the radical Zionistās from settling and prevent any radical Islamists from attacking Israel.
7) get the Arab world to deal with the Islamists criminal/terrorist gang running Lebanon and have a peacekeeping force on the boarder between Lebanon and Israel.
8) in the peace and time that all provides get Israel, the Arab states and the Palestinian authority ( fatah) to sign a two state charter in which they will all defend both states against any extremists ( Jews or Muslim ) who attack either states as well as any state actors ( Iran, Syria, Lebanon) who attack Israel or the the Palestinian state.
9) finally there needs to be massive investment in the Palestinian state to remove the poverty that breeds extremism.
Israel did sign uo for the 2 state solution when it left gaza ( full of functioning farms solar panels and housing) offered and gave desalination plants .training and vehicles for their internal security..They elected hamas . F. Them .sadly many civilians will die in the process. Just now on the way home through London the were screaming death to the Jews…river to the sea etc etc. Some women had baby dolls covered in red paint celebrating the slaughter of israeli baby’s… these are the sam guys that celebrated 9/11…… again f them
The religious war in the middle east is more than decades old try over 1000 years. And it us religious the obvious evidence is the complete lack of same treatment of the Kurds.
IT’S absolute nightmare what’s going on .š
In terms of the moral argument the Israelis are correct; the ordinary Palestinians of Gaza are too soft; they ought to kick out Hamas. That said, thatās easier said than done – bit like an ordinary person in NI telling the IRA or the UVF where to goā¦not a healthy lifestyle choice. IMO what Gaza needs is an armed independent police force to root out all the terrorist groups and protect peaceable Gaza citizens. Bit of a hero assignment – not easy to find volunteers prepared to act as peacekeepers who get the worst of it from both sides.
Agree about the West Bank settlements. They are inflammatory and judged by international community to be illegal. Exodus is a metaphor not a political manual!
Spot on
A few points worth making. The state of Israel was created by the United Nations, at the behest of the UK. World events often transpire to put British forces in hazardous peace keeping situations. Itās a job they do with great skill and integrity. When the āold orderā breaks down in a place there is a political vacuum which is fertile ground for competition and violence. The ending of violence takes a long time – decades or even longer; and requires the presence of a continuing force of mediation which facilitates reconciliation whenever there is a flair up. What we have in Israel – Palestine in a host of arsonists and a shortage of fire fighters.
Historical those lands have changed hands before the modern conflict. Its painted as Arab versus Jew but its Muslim versus Jew and also Jews being associated with capitalism it attracts the Marxists in the West support. Its very tribal so to speak and full of hate.
Spot on Jim, if they wanted to fix this the best time was 20 to 30 years back (those deemed extreme are very much the moderates now) sadly now itās getting more and more difficult with the extremists on both sides writing the rules. Fact is Isreal backed by the US seem to have been playing a game of divide and rule but all that has done is undermine the Palestinian Authority who are the only ones they can do business with. The Hamas attack shows the delusion of that approach and Israel is going to find it more and more difficult to hold back the extreme elements for its own survival and more and more on the US to do so which brings us all into the sights of those extremists. The two state solution is the only (if intervention) answer it would have minimised the power of the extremists and Iran and made the situation manageable for Israel and helped it grow ties with the Arab world who themselves for the most part are very much against the extremists and their Iranian backers. Instead of marginalising Iran itās empowering them and its power to cause harm is only growing. Itās why it empowered this situation it wants anti Israel sentiment to grow everywhere so itās power and influence is expanded and focused. Israel will regret its short sightedness but sadly since Yon Kippur its only had right wing and extreme right wing Govts who want a greater Israel at everyone elseās expense and everyone else are mere cannon fodder to that policy.
āFact is Israelā¦.divide and conquerā¦etc.ā. Spot on. IMO whenever I see a divide and conquer strategy being employed I suspect evil at work. Ironically Israel is technically a western style secular democracy. Many Arabs live there. The problem is that the right wing fundamentalist Jewish sects ( with US connections ) are calling the Israeli tune.
“maybe we could send the some VX their way to help them all out”
Of all the most stupid, ignorant, crass and unbelievable comments to make, even coming from you. Are you not aware that over 6 million people were gassed by the NAZIs 5 years ago?
Jim, you have crossed a red line this time. FUCK OFF
VX was developed after WWII so WTF are you on about.
I think whatās some are missing is the sarcasm in what Jim said. How I took it was Basically the mess would probably not exist still if the extreme views and actions held by some people on both sides were not present.
Time and again you ignore the facts, Jim, and you won’t learn. Now you’ve admitted that you haven’t got a clue and that gassing everybody is the best you have to offer, don’t you think the time has come for you to shut up on this subject?
Maybe a little less posting and a little more thought will allow for some clarity.
Israelis have their homeland now and they are not going to give it up to roam the world again. I’m a little surprised they are being quite so restrained.Flattening Gaza on day one must have been tempting. I suspect they plan to attempt to separate the civilians from Hamas (or potential Hamas fighters) and at that point the serious relief effort will start and they will attempt to root out the Hamas fighters. We will see how they treat the civilians once they are free of Hamas and perhaps we can judge them then. Israel will come out of this with much criticism the only question is how much?
When were Israelis roaming the world?
well they had suffered an ongoing genocide in the levant over 2000 yearsā¦that basically forced the Jewish people from its homeland ( with only a remnant remaining) ending in the Jewish people scattered across Europe..fleeing one progrom after another.
Thatās twice today Iāve seen the word progrom. Never seen it before. Every days a school day. Heading to Google to see what it is
Zionism was a reaction to the fact Europe had become unsafe for Jews in the late 19th and early 20 centuries..and the enlighten Christian Europeans started killing Jews all over againā¦ā¦.as for movement of people the Jewish population of the levant was a actually force out of the Levant and Palestine in particular by ethnic cleansing ā¦at the point the eastern Roman Empire lost Palestine to to the Muslim kingdoms in the 7 centuryās the majority population was Jewish.. ( around 400,000) . The Muslim kingdoms prohibited the building of synagogues, placed heavy taxās and banned worship basically did everything they could to make it impossible for Jews to own land in the holy landā¦reducing the population to about half that by the first crusadesā¦the Christian crusaders had an even more radical solution to removing Jews from the holylands when they arrivedā¦convert, be killed or be enslavedā¦.you then have the Mamelukes, crusaders and mongols fighting over the levant and pretty much depopulating it. By the 16 century there were only a few thousand of the original Jewish population let in Palestineā¦not because they decided to move but because of constant ethic cleansing. Finally from the 16c there was some stability and a return of Jewish populations returning to the levant under the Ottoman Empireā¦but the final return and Zionism came about because of the the 19th and 20th century European progromsā¦.that only finally ended with the in 1946 ( the Polish people were still killing Jews in 1946 under the communists)ā¦..after Christian Europeans had killed 6 million Jews the UN felt the only way to secure a future for the Jewish people was to return them their historic lands that has been stolen from themā¦yes they had been stolen long ago..but they were still stolenā¦.yes itās a problem that both Arabs and Jews see the same place as home..thatās why the only solution was a two state oneā¦ā¦
i quoting the published history and you my friend are still insisting on ignoring why millions of Jews left Europe from the late 19th century to the middle of the 20thā¦it was the same reason they were driven out of the levantā¦persecutionā¦.and ultimately genocideā¦itās nice to pretend that the Christian and Muslim world have not spent almost their entire histories not persecuting and trying to murder the Jewish peopleā¦but the history books are there and itās very clear for anyone to read. There are very few centuries and places that have been safe for the Jewish people.
zionism was a reaction to the utter fear in the Jewish population..Europe at that time was falling into a really nasty form of antisemitism that most Jews could see was going to end in a lot of dead Jewsā¦they fled..the whole point of Zionism was to escape to safetyā¦you still have not acknowledged the rampant antisemitism, progroms and in the end ethic cleansing of Jews from Europeā¦.what the hell do you think happened to the 3-4 millions Jewish people in Polandā¦they did not just evaporate they were killed or forced out.
Funnily enough I seem to remember reading a story about a Jewish guy with a lot of followers who wanted to convert to Christianity along with hundreds and later thousands of other Jews and I think the guy got crucified for it about 2000 years ago.
Clearly large numbers of the non Jewish people living in the area were originally of Jewish decent and converted to Islam and Christianity. Probably much the same as large parts of the population living in the area before Moses and his army showed up converted to The Jewish religion so they were not cleansed from the Holy land.
Actually the evidence is that there was very little conversionā¦manly displacement ( what we today call ethnic cleansing)..the group that were converted to either Christianity or the Muslim faith were the Samaritansā¦.and the conversions was not by choice..the Muslim kingdoms were a little bit more subtle by simply banning the building of religious buildings that were not mosques and putting up land taxes and barriers to none Muslims owning landā¦but the Christian invaders simple converted everyone with more shall we say kinetic means. Today the Samaritans are a few thousand left in the state of Israelā¦the Jewish people after the fall of their kingdoms learn the only option for survival was to runā¦.not as you so put it wanderā¦.
Some good and informed posts. And its not just Jews other religions like the zoroastrians, Hindu and Buddhist regions have also been cleansed over centuries.
yes .but none of theses had 6 million of them gassed and burnt in ovens.
Jim you really arenāt having a good day today are you ? If you read your bible then no where in it did Christ ever claim to being anything else other than a devout Jew and Rabbi.
He was killed by the Romans at the behest of the Jewish Pharisees as they denied that he was the Messiah and a threat to their authority, his surviving apostles were the 1st Christianās.
But DNA testing does suggest that Palestinians, Lebaneses and many Israelis have closely related Genomes.
If I recall I think He claimed to be the Son of God not just a devout Jew, teacher and prophet. His appearance marked a pivotal change in human history. By revealing God he enabled humanity to change its view of itself. Thatās why we count years as AD or BC.
So not Israelis then, Jews.
Many of the people in the area converted to Christianity and Islam over the years. Other Jewish decedents migrated all over the region and eventually the world in no small part because the area described as the holy land is some what a shit hole with limited resources to sustain human life.
The Angleās and Saxons were pushed out of ancestral lands in northern Germany and the Huguenots were pushed out of northern France for being Protestant. Are any of these groups described as being exiled today or roaming the world in search of a homeland?
Would any have a right to return and carve out their own government in the area?
Brilliant I love your word roaming the world in search of a homeland. It was more chased and killed from one place to the nextā¦. I do believe you will find there are many Protestants and Anglo Saxon nations on the earth today Ana alway have been they were taken and held with blood.
but there was no Jewish state because it had been wiped outā¦but and this is the important bit the levant which had been the home of the Jewish people ans the Jewish states had simply been swapped between whichever empire could hold it since the destruction of the two kingdoms of Israel swapping between Christian and Muslim empires depending on the rise and fall of Christian and Muslim empires..it just happens to have been that the last empires to rule the levant were Christian ones ( the British empire and French third republic ) and those empires and the later UN decided how it was going to split the levant up creating the present Arab states of Transjordan, Syria, iraq as well as the present state of Egypt and create a Jewish state to solve 1000:year European issue with the Jewsā¦as for state of Palestine the simple truth is the state of Palestine was never born not because of the Jewish people or Israel..but because the Arabs of the Levant wanted it all and would not allow a Jewish state to exist..so instead of creating a Palestinian state all their effort was put on destroying Israelā¦that simple act has created the ongoing conflict and it failed them catastrophically they bet on war to try and gain it all and lost it all insteadā¦..if the Arab states had accepted a partition then you would have seen a Jewish and Palestinian state exist side by sideā¦and the whole area would have been richer for it the Zionists signed up to thisā¦but they were the only side willing to compromise at that timeā¦
very good commentary Jonathan . I am enjoying reading your thread, thank you.
None of those people still exist as any form of cultural entity.
Agree, by that logic the celts can claim ownership of most if England. They have their own religion, language etc and were pushed off their lands by Angles and Saxons.
ummm maybe not England but Iām pretty sure the Irish q celts want all of their island back and then you have the Scottish independence movementā¦.I can go into a bit of Welsh history as well if you like.
and those bloody Nornams! Besides, what have the Romans ever done for us?ļ»æš ļ»æ
“When were Israelis roaming the world?”
Jesus Jim! No offence but reading history doesn’t seem to be your thing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews
You don’t seem to understand my post. That is not what I said.
Would you in the UK not do anything to ensure your own survival; your very existence? The wholesale nightly carpet bombings of German cities or the destruction of Tokyo, Hiroshima or Nagasaki for example. Two wars in Iraq and one in Afghanistan in which 100,000’s of civilians were killed, another example.
In the present, what is the purpose of your nuclear arsenal. Is it just willy waving or to be used to defend and ensure your very existence.
If Russia dropped a nuke on Birmingham or Manchester, do you think you Brits would refrain from retaliation in order to spare civilian lives?
Are you so hypocritical to believe there is one law for you and another for the Jews. Probably!
Bullcrap. Palestine was never a State or Nation until 1988. Isreal on the other hand was established on 15 May 1948 and admitted to the United Nations. Until 1967 both Gaza and the West Bank were administered by Egypt and Jordan. Palestine did not become a State until 1988. Its not even a member of the UN.
Even most Arab states can’t stand Palestinians. Egypt also blockades Gaza. Jordan had to fight a war with them in 1970. Kuwait would love to hang the lot of them. Many Arabs and Bedouin are in the IDF waiting to storm Gaza as the Allies stormed Nazi Germany.
BTW you answered my question. You are that hypocritical, not to mention arrogant.
Your running around in circles now contradicting yourself comrade. You’ve justified the existence of Isreal. Palestine was the Roman province consisting of Judea and Isreal and inhabited by the Jews. Haha. Not some bunch of Johnny Come Lately Arabs.
Kieven Rus, now modern day Ukraine, founded by a Viking dynasty, existed hundreds of years before the creation of Russia and even besieged Constantinople. It then fell to one empire after another, finally being conquered by the Russian Empire.
One of my go to heroes when it comes to history and economics is the Black American academic Thomas Sowell. Read several of his books and watched many of his interviews on YT. He is a very wise old man and I just remembered a very wise quote from him which I had forgotten.
“It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.”
Thomas Sowell
It very much applies to our comrade.
Search Thomas Sowell and Isreal on YT. Very enlightening.
According to your Russian propagandists.
You know that people who throw around the word zionism so liberally, such as yourself, are usually just trying to justify antisemitic fascism. It’s rascist code just like Westminster is used in Scotland instead of sounding Anglophobic.
Israelās existence is not being practically threatened anymore. In the UK we experienced a very similar situation in Northern Ireland. We did not solve the problem with air strike and bricking up a wall around the place. Had we then we would probably have ended up in a situation like Israel with paramilitary organisations launch ever more sophisticated attacks.
Jim if you are a reasonable and open minded person then can I suggest you sit down and Google a document. Then consider it and then come back and reply to me with what you think ?
Go read the 1988 Hammas Charter, itās their absolute and clearly stated sole statement of intent. It was toned down slightly in 2018 but not by much.
It makes the Wansee Conference look like a benign bit of town planning.
Israel isnāt threatened anymore ? Read it and see if you still stand by that one.
Routing out Hamas is near impossible. Itās a view point held in a lot of peopleās heads after years of hatred brewing.
Some figure heads yes will go but without putting a force in place that will stop attacks flying into Israel made up of the citizens of Gaza, substantial efforts to allow Gaza to create jobs, a nice place to live and a plan that things will get better if everyone gets along, that hatred will continue to brew.
Right now the hatred is boiling after the 6000+ strikes in Gaza.
Unfortunately the destruction of Hamas is necessaryā¦sometimes complete destruction can lead to peaceā¦Germany led on trying to destroy the Jewish people in Europe, Germany itself was destroyed and shattered by the allies, from that utter destruction something other than hatred developedā¦if you do it right it is possible to repair the damageā¦but generally humanity only seems able to do that after a lot of deathā¦.but your right the only way in the end it will work is if we have a stable two state solution..with two secular governments that can work togetherā¦but Hamas will never be part of that, they cannot and do not want to be part of that.
I think itās really important Israel works with the West Bank to make life better for them. Jobs and wealth creation, high speed internet, transport routes for export, airport etc. It may have risks but it hopefully would make things better for all sides.
Show Gaza what they could have.
Indeed I think the Isreal government was very foolish (criminally so actually) to not grab with two hands fatah renouncing violence and a two state solutionā¦they should have removed all the settlers and army from the West Bank and flooded it with resources..as they actually did almost do with Gazaā¦.I think the problem was when they retreaded from Gaza and removed the illegal settlementsā¦Hamas moved in and immediately attacked Israel and has not stoppedā¦.that gave the radical nationalists Zionist brigade what they needed to cause problems in the West Bankā¦.if only Fatah had not been driven out of Gazaā¦if the rockets had stopped the moderates in Israel would have won out and the walls would have slowly come down..instead they were raised higher and Gaza was isolated ( because of Hamas being such a threat)ā¦.and the radical zionists in the West Bank have had their wayā¦. There were two/three real opportunities to change trajectory in Palestine/Isreal.. one was in 1947 if the Arab states had a accepted the UN partition and not tried a bit of ethic cleansing and the UK had not left its mandateā¦and then in 2005 when Israel left Gazaā¦if only Fatah had won the 2006 elections in Gaza and not the extremists of Fatahā¦and or if Israel had fully disengaged with the West Bank and removed all the settlersā¦.but we are where we are and Hamas have secured another generation of war..which is exactly what they wanted ( you cannot removed the Jews from Israel if you have a peaceful two state solution).
A more modern example is the Tamil Tigers.
Jonathan, you are spot on. It’s the end for Hammas in it current from. The IDF will not permit to exist after the incursions into Israel. Most people on this forum have no idea of the IDF resolve. I had some informal dealings with them whilst in the SADF.
They will be singularly focused in achieving this objective. I’m convinced of this. Whilst I find it tragic to see the suffering of Palestinian children, it did not stop Bomber command from flattening German cities. The IDF will see collateral damage in much the the same way. I am saddened by it, but I understand the IDF motive and strategy.
Let us hope it ends soon.
I think you mean the Isreal army who are trying to defeat a terrorist run government thatās aim is the destruction of Israelā¦ā¦the comment about gas may have been a joke but its a bit out of the pale..I would suggest a retraction. Suggesting using gas on either the Jewish or Arab populations of the levant is profoundly unpleasant even in jest.
Once again I never suggested using gas on anyone.
Nerve Gas was in the comment Jim, I understand it was used in jest but still, Bit close to the bone mate.
I think they’ve pretty much guaranteed at least two generations of pure hatred for them now.
Only have to look at the damage done to Lebanon greatly exacerbated by Palestinian refugees and their extremist groups over the years to see why Arab States donāt want to take in large numbers. Egypt is already racked with extremist elements some with Palestinian links. Jordan is far more stable than it has a right to be but could certainly explode with discontent again mostly thanks to Palestinian elements and their supporters. So one can see why Arab States are reluctant to welcome them, for inevitably they would not only operate directly against Israel themselves but would seek to undermine them for not doing enough for the ācauseā and ultimately overturn those Countries generally dictatorial regimes and exploit them to mobilise against Israel as a unified force. It really was/is in Israelās interests to help create a Palestinian State but the extremists there think God is defending them and the quest for a greater Biblically inspired Israel and others buy into the message that such a Palestinian State would just be a more powerful foe. Can understand those fears but what they have done to prevent it is in my view a far greater unified enemy and thus a far greater risk in the future. Only the US can make them see sense but hey when Obama tried they simply humiliated them, and Israelās power base in the US supported by the Old Testament obsessed Republican Right is as usual too short sighted to see the future dangers.
What’s going on is terrible Hamas went into Israel did the Damage ,so Israel hitting back hard which is correct.But for me flattering the Gaza won’t do it everyone knows Hamas in no way going to do a face off with Israeli troops .For me there want these tunnels it’s going to be a lot harder to find them in rubble ,better chance of finding them has the city was.For me it would of been a case of ground forces go in destroy tunnels take out Hamas if any dare turn up then get the he’ll out.Yes this would take sometime but bombing the the place men women children who have nothing to do with it been kill it’s not the way .But that’s just me. š
What does Isreal do after flattening Gaza, they donāt know. Who wins most , Iran.
How would I know or anybody else for that matter, but no doubt Iran had something to do with it.But if Iran push it Isreal won’t think twice about striking Military installations šš š®š±.
Iām thinking Isreal has no plan except revenge, this has gone badly. A few discrete executions in Iran would not go amiss and pressure Gaza for return of hostages, power cuts maybe, but they need water.
Look mate I do feel for the people of Gaza strip ,but I think Isreal well do what they think best even if the USA disagree .
Whenever I see of read about a C-17 I always think about Colonel Russell Williams, formaly wing Commander at Trenton RCAF! How’s his life going š
So obscure, Trev, that you probably needed to tell us the bare bones of the story.
Hi mate, sorry was a bit cryptic š okay Google Colonel Russell Williams, former wing commander of Trenton air base in Canada.(also watch his interigation on YouTube, a behavioural science detective, called Jim Smith takes him to the cleaners in a couple of HOURS) He was responsible for the acquisition of the C-17 In Canada and was responsible for thousands at said base. Within a couple of years he was found out to be a rapist and a murderer! Yes I know it’s off topic, but it’s one of the most interesting investigations I’ve ever followed, and from a man with such responsibility!
A monster! Google him and see how he’s getting on! He’s as bad as Paul Bernado! And this Colonel was flying round the Queen, Phillip and other dignitaries! Scary!
An astonishing and horrific story. I wonder how his personality changed to become the monster that he became.
The problem that Israel has, is for years it has listened to the West in limiting causalities. Yes there will be some here who will claim otherwise but each and every bunfight Israel has had with the neighbours the casualties sustained have always been in the single figure thousands, now Iām not saying that is Ok, but if a truck bomb in Iraq, Afghan, Syria, Somalia can take out between 300 to 500 a shot , then Israel with one of the most modern and lethal militaries in the world must be doing something wrong when after a fortnight of conflict manages to kill a few thousand. Either they are been careful, regards collateral damage or they are shite.
2008-9 Gaza war: 1400 deaths
2012 Gaza clashes : 12 deaths
2012 Operation Pillar of Defence”-Gaza 177 deaths
2014 IsraelāGaza conflict: 2310 deaths
2021 2021 IsraelāPalestine crisis 275 deaths
After each and every bunfight, Hamas has signed a Hudna (a Islamic temp truce) which is there simply to give Hamas enough time to have a breather before coming back for more) during all this time they have consolidated their position, digging in (GAZA metro) received more modern weapons and waited for the whistle to blow for the next over the top moment. Well they struck gold on the 7th of Oct and they murdered 1400 people , kidnapped over 220 and lobbed over 3000 missiles into Israel in which to cover their retreat. Did they expect the Israelis to carry on as before with just a limited land incursion , before settling down to trade their hostages , in the knowledge that their puppet masters in Tehran had signed up Hezballah and a number of PMU groups (Pakistan and Afghan Shia groups) currently in Syria opposite the Golan heights would allow them to negotiate from a position of power. Well if they did they thought wrong and I donāt think Tehran expect the US (it is Biden ) to send in 2 carrier groups and airlift thousands of troops to the region
This time Israel has said bollocks to fighting with its hands behind its back as dictated to it by the West and has decided to rid itself of the Hamas issue once and for all and has set in motion a plan to destroy Hamasa ability to wage war from Gaza by destroying its dug in fortifications and in the process take out as many trained terrorists (for that is what they are) from what I can gather Hamas (like Hezbollah in 2006) didnāt expect this and from the sat pictures I have seen a lot of the northern part of Gaza has been turned into a parking lot. Also interesting is how instead of going in and going tow to toe with the 35K trained men Hamas says it has ready to meet the IDF, they have struck from afar, and made incursions and them when Hamas sends its troops in, they get blatted from above.
Regards civilians during WW2 it transpired that the Germans and Japanese had brainwashed their populations before war started. We see similar from Gaza where mass indoctrination starts from an early age where children are brainwash at school and on TV, that carrying out attacks on the Jews is a duty for all Muslims. This we see in the many school plays where children enact carrying out attacks on the jew (plenty of videos on the net) itās the same with childrenās Tv (I suppose no different than CBBC) where instead of teaching of white guilt, they are taught by the Hamas version of Micky Mouse that once Israel is gone they will target Spain to regain Al-Andalus. This brainwashing is there for everybody to see after events such as 9/11, any attack inside Israel (Such as the kidnapping and murder of 3 school boys) and of course on Sat the 7th of Oct 2023, where they take to the streets firing guns and handing out sweets and cakes in celebration of the mass murder of 1400 jews. Payback is a female dog and if they donāt like what has happened to them this time, them maybe , just maybe they should think about removing Hamas. And just for the record, I donāt like what I am seeing across Europe (including the UK) regards the intolerance expressed by Pro Palestine crowd, which shows that the deep hatred of the jew isnāt just a Palestinian thing.
So they listen to the west on not bombing civilians but ignore the west on illegal settlement building.
I would say Israel had a potential to change the narrative against Hamas here, make it clear they were the aggrieved party and build a consensus against Hamas that may finally have changed the dynamic on the ground. Instead they dropping 1,000 bombs a day on the most densely populated piece of land on the planet and their civilian protection is telling 1 million people to āmove southā with no food, shelter, transport etc.
How will any of that get rid of Hamas. Itās another recruitment advert for them. It will make another generation of Jihadis and continue the vicious cycle from 1948.
If this war has shown anything itās that the Israeli government is corrupt, inept and increasingly anti democratic. The Israeli military is increasingly resting on its laurels and nothing like the effective force it once was.
Hamas is increasingly desperate, barbaric and down right evil and this conflict will now go on for another generation atleast.
What about Berlin Jim, or Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Do you think the Allies shouldn’t have bombed them or are you being hypocritical?
If Russia dropped a nuke on Birmingham or Manchester, do you think you Brits would refrain from retaliation in order to spare civilian lives. Come on!
One law for you and another for the Jews; is that it?
Generally speaking it always has been. The UK, US and other states have done far worse when they are threatened.
As an example the post 9/11 US/western wars and military operations on terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, Pakistan, Somalia and other countries have estimated to have lead to the deaths of around 3,6million to 5+ million people globally. Itās actually been one of the most costly conflicts in historyā¦
Berlin Jim, or Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Exactly my view point- well said Mark. We would be hard pressed to find a Londoner post Blitz opposed to bombing German cities.
Hamas cannot be bargained with or reasoned with they will not stop until they have driven all Jewish people out of that part Middle East. They say as much in their charter, they are not interested in any negotiations or a 2 state solution.
Not quite right, they donāt want to drive the Jewish people out of the Middle East. Their stated aim (see part 13 of their charter) is to kill every single Jew as the day of judgement canāt happen till that has happened.
Well, that is worse. Charter for Genocide.
Yep until I actually sat down and read it I was of the opinion that there was a possible peaceful solution involving Hamas in Gaza. Afterwards I see that Israel has an absolute need to eliminate Hamas. And unfortunately that means innocent civilians will be killed.
Iām mindful of a paradox between how we rationalise the flattening of German Cities to kill Nazism and the bombing of Gaza. We need to remember that the German and Gazzan populations elected the Nazis and Hamas.
The Nazis cemented their power by eliminating the Communists, Hamas eliminated the PA and Fatah (they executed one Fatah man by stoning him in a very modern way, threw him off a 15 story building).
But I also deplore the way Israel is behaving in the West Bank. They should pull out, remove the settlements and stop their militants from just shooting folks when they feel like it.
Prove to the world that they can live in peace with some Palestinians and expose Hamas for what they are.
Itās tragic and so very sad, but unfortunately true, A lot of people profoundly miss understand what Hamas is, they are not an organisation that is trying to liberate Gaza and make a nation as part of a two state solution.
Their charter and purpose is clear..the destruction of Israel as well as the destruction of any Muslim state or organisation that does not support the destruction of Israel, itās why they are a prescribed terror organisation and why almost all Arab states refuse to deal with them and see them as a threatā¦
I will clearly state I am quoting from the Yale school of law record of and review of the charter, I am not quoting or promoting anything that Hamas say.
.article 32 of the Hamas charter explains why Egypt will be very hard to pursued to allow the opening of the boarder with GAZA for people to flee.
basically it calls out Egypt for high treason as well as any other Muslim nation, group or Individual that supports a two state solution.
As for any peace settlement: Hamas charter article 13 explains that it rejects any and all peace settlements or processes of negotiation.
Article 7 is the worst of all and a profoundly evil statement that has nothing to do with Palestine or itās peopleā¦itās simply a call for extermination of Jews anywhere by all Muslims.
Introduction to the charter sets out the fate of Israel:
āIsreal will exist and will continue to exist until islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others.ā
The Hamas and Hezbollah charters are pretty close..but basically follow a holly war against Jews and require the utter destruction of the Jewish peoples, as well the destruction of any Muslim who wishes to live in peace as part of a two state solution. Both charters reject any form of negotiation or settlement other than the complete destruction of Israel and the Jewish people.
They also mention the rest of the world is basically controlled by the Jewish people and there is an international conspiracy of the Jewish people to take over the worldā¦all the best āNaziā lines with added sprinkles of profound religious hatred and justification from god.
Its actually really scary stuff and I suspect if it was more widely know people would be a bit more worried about Hamas and Hezbollah.
I also completely agree with your comment on the West Bank , the hard core nationalist Zionists have far to much sway in the Israeli government at present, the moment fatah, which is secular liberation movement, renounced violent struggle the Israeli government should have started to disengaged in the West Bank and removed all the illegal settlementsā¦created a peace treaty recognised the fatah government of an independent Palestinian and pushed the UN to recognise it as a nation..then pushed the international community to develop funding for business and trade to make better livesā¦finally the international community could have supported fatah as the government of Palestine in dealing with Hamas in Gaza.
mistakes were made and now we have a tragedy unfolded.
Nobody should be hating someone because of some religion. Itās the actions people undertake that should be hated.
The nut jobs come out to protest about anything. With the current issue they are protesting in the wrong place. Head to Israel and Palestine to join in there. Make a difference.
Itās like the stop oil people, everything they do drives people away from the goal they have.
Sadly their bloody book, extolls exterminating the Jews in particular. Technically you could have it banned for inciting hate under the UK’s Hate Law. But there’s nobody in politics with the balls to do it! If France is on the receiving end of more large scale terrorist attacks. I can see them going down that route.
Too right, You cannot trust anyone whose religion and culture are based around apocalyptic end-of-days prophecies and martyrdom to come up with peaceful and sensible solutions.
No one mentions Iran.
This is a good action by the U.K. Low key and obviously humanitarian.
You are right Barry. Iran sponsors many terrorist groups – and Iran supplies weapons to Russia including missiles and drones for use in the Ukraine war.
I am surprised at the limited western and Israeli action against Iran in recent years.
Within our lifetime we will have a very large Muslim population. Currently it is 3.8 Million and growing. I predict a civil war in the UK eventually due to multiple different competing ethnic and religious groups (much like the breakup of Yugoslavia which is a very good analogy). EDI initiatives have pitted one ethnic group against another whilst demonising white men and British history and this is bound to lead to conflict eventually. The hard left have aligned themselves with Islamists (so called Islamo-leftism). This is the biggest threat to the UK over the next thirty or forty years rather than state-on-state conflict. The future of your grandchildren will depend upon it. Fundamentally we have a very large part of our population (the aligned far left communists with the Islamists as well as their liberal apologists) that is destined probably to create some weird hybrid communist/theocratic government in the UK probably by 2060. Fortunately I’ll be long gone by that time but your grandchildren are in for a horrendous time. We have Balkanised the UK with many different ethnicities and religions that fundamentally cannot live side-by-side and we all new this was the case as predicted by Enoch Powell. If I were a jew in Britain now I would flee to Israel because the UK has become a toilet of intolerance towards them (when we said never again after WW2). To say our police, government and even armed services are cowards is an understatement (they should have arrested people on Saturday and also looked at removal of British nationality and deportation of dual nationals, students and those on work visas). If these people cannot protest in peace then they have no place in British society. I’m utterly ashamed of the UK allowing proto-fasicsts in the form of islamists to protest intolerance even near sacred places like the Cenotaph where people like my great grandfather and grandfather laid down their lives in WW1 and WW2. Labour may have started this in their mass migration initiatives starting in 1997 but the Conservatives have put this on steroids. All parties have treated immigrants as economic units devoid of whether they will integrate or not and what they add to society as well as economically. This is the root cause of our problems and we should have given tax breaks to native British people to have more children rather than import the conflicts of the world on our streets (economically it would have been massively cheaper and led to a more harmonious and homogeneous society). Paraphrasing a line from the Bible: as you sow, so shall you reap…. We will reap a bitter harvest for allowing Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson and Sunak to bring the world’s problems to the shores of the UK. I feel it is too late to turn things around before the UK is engulfed in the ethnic and religious conflicts of the middle east and third world.
I am baffled by LGBTQIA+ groups marching in support of Palestine/Hamas. Do they not know how Hamas treats gay people? At the least they would be beaten up. Sadly, also a high chance they would be killed. Only in Jordan is it legal to be gay, & only then in private. Being gay is illegal in all other arab muslim nations.
Yet in Israel, you can have gay pride parades.
I know! It would be comical if it wasn’t so tragic.
As I said elsewhere on this discussion, it’s not just evil that cause Antisemitism and Genocide but also ignorance and stupidity. The Alphabet Crowd are very much guilty of the latter two.
I know some mainstream LGB that want to distance themselves from the TQIA+ nut jobs.
I also saw a headline from that Guardian tw@t Owen Jones blaming Isreal for Hamas’ homophobia. What kind of sick, twisted antisemitism is that?
No doubt he can provide the evidence for that theory.
I also saw a headline from that Guardian tw@t Owen Jones blaming Isreal for Hamasā homophobia. What kind of sick, twisted antisemitism is that?
geez Jon, you should have been in New Zealand on Saturday – marches in the major cities – no end to it Mate. In truth , I don’t cares if they wish to demonstrate their views, it’s the hypocrisy I can’t abide. Where were they when the 1,400 jews were murdered – not a peep. Who charged them to place greater value on Palestinians them over Jews?
Exactly mate.
ļ»æšļ»æ
I know that in a democracy people have the right to protest, but in a time of crisis, where lives are being lost, I think the Home Secretary should have the power to temporarily ban protests, that could be seen as hate crime. Six weeks would probably be enough.
That sounds like a wise policy John
Sadly, I agree with much of this.
Hi M8 I take it you have read the Hamas Charter (the original 1988 version). Its scarey loony tune monster stuff.
Hi mate. No, I haven’t.
I fear you are right Daniele. With so much going for us a species, how did it come to this? I reflect back to 1945, and we haven’t advanced at all. Homo Sapiens hmm !
Mate, I much prefer the animal world, I really do.
Well said my friend.
some intelligent intelligent commentary Andrew- well articulated. I think you have expressed vey well how many people feel.
You may want to read this report. It was an eye opener for me and told me the nature of the beast we are dealing with:
https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Islamism-and-the-Left.pdf
we are being outplayed by the Islamist and communists and they are using critical race theory and EDI as the means to outplay us. The tragedy is the Tories are playing along with this game as they are cowards.
Hi Andrew .Thanks for positing this-that’s a frightening read!
A further point I’d like to add Andrew
Wealthy Arab states should step up and take a sizable refugee quota. Theses nations have a poor track record exploiting cheap Indian Labour on infrastructure construction et al. (yes Saudi Arabia and UAE ā Iām looking at you).
They need to take Syrian/Gaza refuges and afford them these jobs as opposed to importing poorly treated Indian workers. This also applies to refugees from Africa. Why should Europe shoulder this burden? Many (if not most) are of Islam faith, Arab states to demonstrate their faithās values by looking after their āfolkā.
Is this single lift all that we do to aid Palestinian non-combatants? It looks like tokenism if it is.
Good to see the C17 being used, however maybe 2 or 3 others full of Aid would have been better. Do we own 2, 3 or 4… I dunno.
Anyhow there they were, flying essentials into that particularly troubled area of the world again.
So now Syria/Israel relations are strained, Lebanon under the control of Hezbollah are ‘firing’ something or other into Israel. Egypt are getting ‘peeved’ at the situation, and Iran, those little rascals, are agitating from a distance, and mobilizing an couple or Brigades or whatever, for 2 weeks of exercise’s.
In ‘recent years’, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and others, had started to reach ‘an accord’, on certain issues. Principally Iran, couldn’t stand the idea of this… fellow Arabs ‘cosying up’ to Israel, so they phoned a friend, or in this case Hamas, and told them to get ready to carry out atrocities against the ‘infidels’ of Israel.
Hamas being who they are, needed little excuse to ‘kick off’ events, knowing exactly… EXACTLY what Israel would do, and how Palestinian Arabs would suffer. They KNEW!
So then yesterday, in central London, Hamas supporters organised a protest march.
Among those protesters, Hamas started the chanting… Death to Israel… death to Israelis… free Palestine, and the majority of the ignorant crowd… went along with it.
The fact that 1400 innocent people of all ages were slaughtered by Hamas, seemed to be of little interest to most of those protestors on Saturday. Why?
8
One world..antisemitism, Iām afraid that although itās not as blatant in Europe ( including the UK) as it was in the 19th and early 20c itās still there..just bubbling away waiting for the right spark..Europe ( including the UK) has a history of antisemitism dating back almost 1000 yearsā¦the first British progrom was in 1189 in York and the last recorded UK progrom was in Manchester in 1947ā¦.almost a thousand years of active antisemitismā¦its why Jewish people get so worried when you see protests on the streets chanting from the river to the sea..itās only a small step back to the early 20c.
Because many of them are ignorant cretins?
šš»
The C17 is a fabulous workhorse. Worth their weight in gold. Fantastic platform.
Hi Robert, I totally agree. I was quietly hoping the RAF would acquire a couple more when the last “whitetail” C17s were on the market. Would have gone some way in closing the capability gap with the retirement of the C10Js.
It would mate. Another bargin that wasn’t taken up on. Of course you have more operating costs with 10 aircraft, and the need for more aircrew and engineers. But you can never have enough of these assets. I have every faith though that A400 will turn into an outstanding tactical/strategic airlift capability. Just another 6 or 8 would be very nice šš
you have my vote sir!ļ»æšļ»æ
šš
Now all we need is for everyone to support Egypt around opening the boarders and creating a secure safe area in Sinai, that will need international support to Egypt as its not a safe option for Egypt..Sinai province ( IS) are an active terror group and have been supported and strengthened by Hamasā¦Egypt will need a lot of security support and guarantees. Also once Isreal has destroyed the Hamas infrastructure, there will need to be international support to get Gaza rebuilt and safe from Hamas. All in all itās not simple…lBut this is horrible and needs to endā¦ but what is needed is not just on Isrealā¦itās a proper plan that all are signed up toā¦.
1)a pause in the fighting,
2)Egypt to open its boarders ( which they donāt want to do because Hamas want to help overthrow the Egyptian government In The Sinai )..allow the aid inā¦move all the civilians to safety in Egyptā¦
3)destroy Hamas rout and branch in Gaza
3) removed all the Jews settlers from the West Bank,
4) move fatah into Gaza..move the population back in and have an international focus on rebuilding gaza
5) have a UN cordon around Gaza to protect Israel from the extremists..who will continue to try and attack Israel as long as it exists.
6) have a un cordon around the West Bank to prevent the radical Zionistās from settling and attacking the Arab population and prevent any radical Islamists from attacking Israel.
7) get the Arab world to deal with the Islamists criminal/terrorist gang running Lebanon and have a peacekeeping force on the boarder between Lebanon and Israel.
8) in the peace and time that all provides get Israel, the Arab states and the Palestinian authority ( fatah) to sign a two state charter in which they will all defend both states against any extremists ( Jews or Muslim ) who attack either states as well as any state actors ( Iran, Syria, Lebanon) who attack Israel or the the Palestinian state.
9) finally there needs to be massive investment in the Palestinian state to remove the poverty that breeds extremism.
J for PM. I’d vote for you.
You missed one more point, regime change in Iran. One of the biggest sponsors of misery for people throughout the Middle East including its own people.
That is a very good point, Iran is a toxic player sowing discord and conflict.
Have you any idea how long it has taken for Egypt to clear the Jihadists out of Sinai ? They will not let them back in.
Hi ABC, I donāt believe they have managed it yet, Sinai province is still active..itās why Egypt will need international support and cover around its own security if itās to provide that humanitarian open border and take the population of Gaza while Hama is removed. It would be irrational to think that the Egyptian government will just open the boarder and allow Hamas to infiltrate in with the civilian population of Gaza as well as take the population long term..it would need to be very very controlled and Egypt would need a lot of money, resources, intel and security support if it was to open its boarderā¦there is a reason Egypt built as big a wall between it and Gaza as Israel did.
Not entirely and that has a lot to do with the Iranian backed smuggling up to and under the Egyptian / Gazza border. But itās a hell of a lot better than it was till a couple of years ago.
Egypt and specifically their Government see Hamas and their relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood as a direct threat to them. So no way they will allow the Palestinians to move into the Sinai.
Unfortunately you are correct..itās profoundly unlikely and the reason that Gaza humanitarian issue will probably not be solved..Hamas, Hezbollah and the Muslims Brotherhood are just to toxic, you cannot negotiate with them..they will even attack and try and overthrow Muslim states that are not in their eyes radical enough..they will also never ever accept the right of Israel to exist and will just keep attacking from Gaza come what may as they have no interest in the people of Gaza other than as a recruiting ground for their war and as a human shieldā¦they just want to keep prosecuting their holy war until they are all dead or the Israelis are destroyedā¦sickening really..itās why the protest for peace are so sadly off the markā¦and simply the puppets of radical Islamistsā¦Israel has no chance of having a peace and to ask them to unilaterally stop is to allow Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran free reign to destroy Israel.
Well put mate. Unfortunately, making it work is another story altogether š
Indeed, seeing the road is not travelling the road.
I wonder how Britain would have felt if a third country had tried to deliver humanitarian aid to the civilian population of Nazi Germany. The avowed aim of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran is to wipe Israel off the map and exterminate the Jewish population. Hamas, as the government of Gaza,chosen by its people in 2006, has launched a brutal attack on Israel. This entitled Israel to retaliate to destroy the threat of further attacks. Civilian casualties cannot be avoided if the Hamas threat is to be eliminated.
Gaza, part of Palestine under borders settled in 1906, passed to Egyptian control in 1948 when the Arab states had tried and failed to eliminate the UN approved new state of Israel. It remained under Egyptian control as a special military district with very limited rights for Gazans to leave. In 1955, it was described as a virtual prison for the then 300,000 population.
Israel gained control over the strip and west bank, annexed by Jordan in 1950, in 1967, after another defeat of 4 Arab countries
The growth of Palestinian populations( Gaza forecast to be 3m by 2030) and Israeli settlements in the west bank make any solution all but impossible. It was probably impossible even in 1948 ( Truman thought so). Even if an independent Palestinian state could be agreed for the west bank, Gaza would remain a problem.
Was there a functional government that represented its people at the in 1948?
Itās a long time ago now and whatās done canāt be changed. Israel is there and wonāt disappear.
So itās up to all of them to work together to make their lives better.
š
Colony is not the right word it was “annexed” by the British. If there remained a large population of white people with British heritage (e,g Australia, New Zealand) in the region,then it could have been called a Colony.
Ah no Bringer of facts, don’t use the “Colony” word! You’ll bring the enlightened left masses out of the woodwork!
I have it in on authority that I am to blame for all the previous wrong doings in my home country of South Africa. Now that I live in NZ, apparently I am also to blame for the injustices to the Maori. Geez, I must have been a bad boy in my pervious life’s! No doubt my ancestry can be traced back to the Normans ! ļ»æšļ»æ
Will you comment on Putin invading Ukraine?
Or the Chinese genocide of Uighurs or the Palestinian persecution and murder of LGB people. We know what he is.
I wonder if the giant spoon he stirs with, is standard Russian issue?
Mind the spoon! I don’t want you to trip over it, as you stir.
You’re sounding a little unbalanced there comrade. Have you forgotten to take you meds today? You’re hilarious š.
But the UN recognized Israel and proposed a two state solution in 1948. The Arab countries and Palestinians didn’t accept this and used force to try to prevent it. They have continued to use force, either conventional or irregular, and have failed each time. Each time Israel has further consolidated its position of dominance. The direction of travel is clear which is why I cannot see any negotiated settlement succeeding.
Whilst Ashkenazi Jews continue to dominate political life in Israel, a larger part of the population is now made up of Sephardi and Mizrahi who have migrated from North Africa and other Middle Eastern countries. This is no longer a European settler country. This re- concentration of the Jewish population means greater strength, military and economic. There is less chance of an Israeli military defeat than ever before. So the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah may cause suffering but they are ultimately pointless.
What Nazi card? Just a brief factual summary and a rather despondent conclusion
Cretin.
I still think religion is the worst man made invention by a long shot, the quicker we get rid of all of them the better.
Agree
Sun worship is far more intelligent, they knew mate š
Hahaha Yeah spot on Trev, I’d take sun worship anyday š
Exactly, they knew without the sun we wouldn’t exist! I’m an atheist and quite happy with that! So better than all these made up gods and nonsense š
Top man CJ
To be fair they served their purpose for a long time in creating social cohesionā¦.quite frankly Iām sure we would have found something else as an excuse to kill each other even if religion was off the tableā¦infact we haveā¦skin color..language, family name, power, wealth, food, water, pretty coloured rocks and metals, pretty women, slaves, landā¦..shellsā¦you name it humans have killed for it
Yeah totally agree but it would be nice to get rid of one of the big one’s for killing eachother š
Dam right. š
If the house of your Grandparents was taken by an external force, how would you feel?This problem will never be sorted until the Europeans go home! And they won’t! I Recognise Palestine!
Is that the Palestine of the jews, Samaritans or the Christians or the Muslimsā¦they have all lived in that land and all have a right to live in that land. Unless there is a safe two state solution with protections for all the ethnic groups in the Levant there will never be peace..letās be clear when you say Europeans go home what you mean is Jews leaveā¦.itās the same call that was heard in Europe from the end of the 19th and first half of the 20th centuryā¦
I agree with everything you said Jonathan sorry got a bit tipsy last night š regards and sorry if I offended anyone, I don’t know how to delete posts!
Ask the mods to delete it using “contact us”.
And there we go we now have our first progrom in Europe ( Dagestan airport in Russia ) since the polish 1968 progrom led to the expulsion of most of the last 15000 Jews living in Poland ( the remainders of a population of 3,3million people who were ethically cleansed)ā¦.I did say itās a fear that exists.in the Jewish community..after all the last UK progrom was only in 1948..living memoryā¦
Actually if you read my posts I do actually acknowledge the radical Zionist elementā¦and also if you read my posts I do say the illegal settlement on the West Bank should be removed and that the fact fatah in the West Bank disavowing violence and supporting a two state solution was a failed opportunity by the Israeli government..who should have used the opportunity to withdraw from The West Bank and dismantle the settlements as they did in Gaza in 2005ā¦..unfortunately when they did do that in Gaza Hamas was immediately voted inā¦.and there first job after eliminating any Arab Muslim or Christian who supported fatah was to immediately attack Israelā¦..there is actually a simple difference here..the avowed aim of Hamas is the total destruction of Israel and the the formation of an Islamic state across the levantā¦they will kill every Jew, Christian or Muslim that gets in the way of that as well as use and put in harms way anyone to further that goalā¦Israelās avowed aim is to defend the Israeli peopleā¦can I ask a question has the nation your from lived in perfect peace and not killed any civilians of another nation while protecting itself ? Have you protested against every war or attack..made by every nationā¦If not your being a hypocrite and implying only Jews are not allowed to defend themselvesā¦.if on the other hand you have protested every act of state violence from every nation I commend you.
Jonathan best just to ignore him.
Mate, I can assure you they would not be very welcome in Switzerland .In the dictionary under xenophbia ,it says refer to the Swiss.ļ»æšļ»æ
The state of Israel was always codified as a Jewish state it was defined in its Declaration of Independence as a Jewish state and that term was specifically used in the mandate and UN partition planā¦.I donāt like to say this and I try not to use the term but you are making a lot of comments that when brought together sound very much like a claim that isreal does not have a right to existā¦I would just point out that such a statement is defined as antisemitism as well as potentially in breach of UK lawsā¦it is fine to argue that the people of Gaza live in occupation and have a right to protest for their freedom..it is not legal to support the actions of Hamas or Hezbollah as well as in any way support a position that the Jewish state does not have a right to existā¦Iām happy to debate but I donāt want to end up with someone Iām debating with breaking laws or this website and itās organisers getting into trouble.
The reality is that the Israeli operation in Gaza to eliminate Hamas cannot suceed. Many of these terrorists will leave or already have left the territory to re-group elsewhere. The longer the IDF stays in the city, the more unavoidable civilian casualties will occur, and sympathy for Israel will continue to ebb away. I would always be on the side of Israel but they need to end the violence now and de-escalate. They can seek out the Head fanatics and destroy them later as did the Americans with Bin Laden
Hi Geoff- it will play out like a mini version of Stalingrad. Those Hammas scum bags are well intrenched in tunnels. They make the Viet Cong look like a kids birthday party. It’s going to be brutal
Howsit Klonkie. The world is becoming an increasingly dangerous place and ironically cities like Durbs and Auckland in the deep south might be the safest spotsļ»æšļ»æ The Boks damaged my BP but we won and it has given us something to celebrate. I thought the red card on the AB’s skipper was a little harsh but there you go..
Cheers my friend
Must admit I had my stomach in my throat watching the final. Couldn’t agree more with you re the red card incident. Naturally a lot of deserved criticism levelled at the TMO. The Kiwis have been gracious in their loss to the Boks though. All the best Geoff, stay well.
I am glad we are providing help but the whole situation is such a conundrum. I was hoping that Israel would use a more nuanced approach using its muti spectrum assets to degrade and destroy Hamas over time, but it seems they are just going in with a sledgehammer. Whatever the righteous anger they may feel (rightly) at what was done to their citizens, two wrongs do not a right make and will rapidly degrade support for their cause.
The profoundly sad thing is that these terror groups embed themselves purposefully in and control civilian populationsā¦as they want the populations to suffer as that is their recruiting groundsā¦as for nuanced approach using multi spectrum assets the US could not or would not do it after 9/11ā¦what most people forget is the post 9/11 war on terror has directly or indirectly caused the death of something like 3.7 to 5 million people. Hamas is the government of Gaza itās not a small set of terrorists cellsā¦it has 30,000+ fighters embedded in a fortified cityā¦.you cannot use a nuanced multi spectrum asset approach to a 30,000 strong entrenched armyā¦this is unfortunately a war that is being fought in an incredibly small and densely populated spaceā¦.the entire state of Israel is only 70 miles wide and at its narrowest 15 milesā¦Gaze is only at best 6 miles wideā¦.the simple truth is until a two state solution is agreed by everyone ( and at present only 39% of Arabs and 40% of Israeliās support a two state peace) the Levant will continue to be a blood bath..
for interest since 1920 the Arab Israeli Conflict has killed around 26500 Israelis and injured 36,000 with around 95000 thousand Arabs killed and 78,000 wounded..( most of these were from other Arab states during one of the many wars..not Palestinians..of the Arab casualties around 6000 dead and 14,000 injured were Palestinians.
Of these deaths just less than half of the Israelis dead were from terrorist attacks 10,000….the others were war related dead with the Arab states..with around another 1000 killed in the Arab riots between 1920-1947..With the Arab dead. 82 thousand of the Arab dead related to specific wars between Arab states and Israeli. 6000 killed in the two intifadas with around 2000killed in intrafada ( fighting between different Palestinian Arab groups..such as the Hamas fatah conflict)ā¦
so interestingly if you look at the dead as part of a Palestinian Israeli Conflictā¦.the deaths of Israelis and Palestinians is quite close..with slightly more Israelis killed via via terrorist acts than Palestiniansā¦itās all so very sad and it will continue until their is a two state solution with guaranteed security from the surrounding Arab states and removal of radical terror groups like Hamas from power.
The way they are operating at the moment is massively counterproductive, punishing the innocent, albeit likely Israeli hating inhabitants of the same since they know no better. Israel has Hamas contained in a ‘box’ they don’t need to devastate the area just selectively take out targets on the ground, kill the leadership and so on who have nowhere to run too. Every civilian dead is just a recruiting sgt for Hamas and they are walking seemingly eyes open into this trap. The kids whose parents die today are the radicalised of tomorrow. A two state solution is the only answer.
PGS, whilst I am of a similar view to you, I have a good (I think I do) understanding of why the Israelis are flattening Gaza. The best analogy I can find is Bomber command flattening German cities and the Americans fire bombing Tokyo et al. It’s not right, nor good, but they do it.
Someone said the first casualty in war is the truth. They were wrong, the first causality is people’s compassion.
Unfortunately PSG Isreal thought it Hamas in a box, it did not the containment strategy has failed catastrophically..as for a two state solution that is dead as long as Hamas exists as Hamas sole purpose is the destruction of the state of Israel..nothing else, itās not about liberating Gaza making Gaza a nation state..it is simply there to destroy Israel with any and all means..that includes murdering every single Jew and Israeli citizen they can as well as killing any Arab Palestinians in an organisation that voices the fact they may want a two state solution ( the population of Gaza donāt want a two state solution, they never have..a two state solution has a 39% rating amongst Palestinians)..Isreal was alway signed up to a two state solution until they Simply gave up on the idea due to the arab Palestinians refusing any two state solution. This was when the containment strategy was adopted, it was a failure.
As for selectively taking out targets on the ground sorry thatās never going to work Hamas is not a small terrorist organisation with a few leaders and some terrorists cells. Itās the government of Gaza that can raise an army of 50,000 fighters all of which are dedicated Islamists..it has spent 17 years turning Gaza into a fortress from which to strike Israel..they even have their own ballistic missilesā¦the Fateh 110 a 3500kg 300 mile range 500kg warhead ballistic missileā¦with an arsenal of shorter range rockets ranging in the 15,000 to 20,000 markā¦since the Israeli disengagement in Gaza in 2005 around 16,000 rocket attacks were fired out of Gaza..not including what has been fired since 0ct 7..on Oct 7 Hamas and affiliates fired 5000rockets at Israel..the attack on the 7oct was not a few terrorists running around..this was an assault on possibly the best defended frontier in the world with a force of 2500 heavily armed fighter using advanced tactics such as seaborne assault (Hamas actually has its own force of trained marines) ..they used drone assaults to destroy fixed defences and air and sea assaults to attack and knock out Israeli military bases..before going on a civilian killing rampage. Since the initial barrage on the 7oct Hamas has been firing on average around 3000-4000 rockets a week at Israel even as Israel does its best to destroy Hamas.
Hamas is by any means a well supplied and trained military specifically designed to us GAZA as a battle ground to suck in and kill the IDFā¦they have a fortress buried inside a civilian population, with up to 50,000 fighters who are fantics, thousands on thousands of missiles and rockets, as well as as an estimated 1000 anti tank missiles and 100-200 Anti air missiles .as the leader of the Hamas military stated āwe donāt fear a ground assaultā essentially Hamas want this fight and they want the IDF in GAZA ( they can kill more of them that way)..they donāt give a shit who diesā¦them the women and children of Gaza as long as they can kill Israelisā¦.Israel has one of the best militaries in the world why do you think they have taken so long to even start operations in Gaza.
As for strikes on leadersā¦does nothing.. Hamas and Israel have been playing that game of decadesā¦Hamas launches an attack..Israel assassinates their leaderā¦Hamas launches another attackā¦
The big problem for Israel is not just Hamas..you have Hezbollah to the north..another terrorist group that in infact a heavily armed nation state..again there pretty much sole objective is the destruction of Israelā¦Hezbollah has an army of around 30,000, with reserves it claims a total army of around 100,000 on full mobilisation its has and arsenals of around 150,000 rockets and missiles including up to 700 ballistic missiles with a 300 mile range and payload of 500kgs.they have a huge supply of antitank and even anti ship missilesā¦tanksā¦far more fires they are infact the most heavily armed none state actor in the worldā¦..
The problem Israel has now realised it faces is that Hamas are going to keep attacking ( they will not stop they want this war)ā¦so Isreal cannot just contain them..it would take most of the IDF to stop Hamas if it really wants to attack as we saw on the 7oct so to stop the attacks and defeat hamas in Gaza is going to take a huge chunk of the IDFā¦Hezbollah has started its probs in the northā¦even with no further state actors Israel is facing a war with two fanatic armies of possibility close to 150,000 heavily armed committed and military. Trained terroristsā¦and a bombardment from litterally almost 200,000 rockets and missile..including up to 700 ballistic missilesā¦
If the IDF got bogged down containing Hamas, Hezbollah can use the engagement of the IDF in Gaza to attack from Lebanon then Israel is in deep shit and fighting for its lifeā¦on two fronts if the other Arab nations then see an opportunity Israel will be in an impossible military situation and its population would be facing at worst complete destruction ( Hezbollah and Hamas would kill whoever they could find)
the final piece of the puzzle is Isreal is tinyā¦at some points itās only 9:miles wide, 70 miles at the most..if itās military get overwhelmed itās could overrun within a day or two with fanatical fighters who will kill everybody in their path..
the reality is Israel is terrified, itās facing an immediate existential threat..if the worst case plays out and it looked like the IDF was going to be overwhelmed, we would see Israelās go nuclear. This is not an incident, this is not the intifadaā¦or a limited terrorist group like the IRA, we are seeing three large militaries engaged in what looks like a it could be war of destruction in the levantā¦that may spill into the next full blown Arab Israeli warā¦.
So there is no chance Isreal is going to be surgicalā¦we would not if faced with the level of immediate threat and attack that Israel suffered the UK government would use almost every measure and means. The US war on terror killed or indirectly killed 3-5 million people..and the U.S. was never facing an existential threat to its existence.
I think a lot of people are really miss understanding what a Hamas/Hezbollah Israeli war actually is as they see Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorists groups like the IRA or something like the intafadaā¦this is a war between heavily equipped armies one of which is hiding behind its civilian population while still attacking ( on purpose mind as part of the strategy is to isolate Israel so itās easier to destroy).
Hi Jonathan
I look at the size of Israel in relation to the huge land mass of the Arab Islamic countries surrounding her and wonder why this tiny refuge for a people that suffered the worst case of industrial slaughter in the history of humanity, should be a target of such hatred for those hundreds of millions around her?
Basically because when empires finally pulled out of the levant, the Muslim Arabs wanted all the pieā¦.every partā¦.remembering the levant had been ruled by external empires for over 2000 years.
My over riding concern is that we are playing Putinās game by letting our attention and resources wander from the nasty European war on our doorsteps.
Politicians can only think of one thing at a timeā¦..so says Sir Humphreyā¦.in conversation with Sir Arnold.
āA Minister with two ideas?ā
āCanāt remember that last time we had one of them!ā
That is a good point..we are seeing lots and lots of points of geopolitical stressā¦.there are now two US carriers in the middle east to try and prevent a state on state regional war ( which is what Hamas wantā¦as well as Iran and russia..Iām sure china are quite happy in the background)ā¦
personally I think Iran are going to keep pushing their proxies buttons until they get a regional warā¦when the US and Europe get involvedā¦as we likely will I think it will be the time china may just thinkā¦.best possible time to try for Taiwan..at that point we have our own 21c world warā¦.which will go on for years and devastate the global economy and kill many 10s millions.
Agree SB. Ukraine has almost literally disappeared from the headlines even though it is a much bigger conflict than Israel and Hamas
Good point. I found a single small story on the Ukraine war tucked away on page 15 of the Telegraph recently.
Even on here focus has movedā¦..
Nice piece on the telegraph George š
I read a sitrep on WarZone that included the following
What does it say when 14,000 people are reportedly sheltering in a declared Israeli primary target? Are these “volunteer” human shields? Are these Hamas fighters? Are they figments of a propagandist’s imagination? If they exist, why doesn’t the Palestinian Red Crescent explain to them that it’s not safe?
Al-Quds is a private hospital, primarily catering to the wealthy (although also taking some government transfers), with a cinema, a beauty salon, and even a conference hall. Founded by Yassir Arafat’s brother, it’s run for profit by the Palestinian Red Crescent. I’m wondering if they might have a slight bias?
In 2009 the Israelis destroyed the hospital according to the Palestinian Red Crescent. “There was nothing left to salvage inside the blackened hulk.” The International Red Cross on the other hand reported that services at the supposedly destroyed hospital would be āback to normal in three to five daysā after the repair of damaged water pipes. Miraculously it was.
I wonder if there’s an alternative in these cases, such as an international body sorting things out.
Court a little on sky news this morning before I left for work two unidentified aircraft enter Isreal airspace .Can anyone put some light on this ? I guess it may of been drones ?
Nope ok good night š guys .š¬š§
What a waste of resources feeding Hamas and other mujahideen terrorists. Along with their financiers, supporters and facilitators. We should be ashamed of ourselves! GB should be supplying Israel with cluster bombs, air dispensable antipersonnel mines and napalm. To help a fellow democracy rid itself of mass murdering, genocidal terrorist threats. A scorched earth policy and return to Israeli rule, is the only cure for the Gazan open cancerous wound.
I understand Syria needs to repopulated following the ISIS killing spree. Hmmm perhaps there is a better solution than scorching the Gazan earth. Can the RAF help transport the survivors of the Israelis righteous purge, to Syria.
George, I’m sure Angela Merkel would love to take another million. And of courses without any consultation of the German population to have a say in her decision making.
Seriously though, wealthy Arab states should step up and take a sizable refugee quota. Theses nations have a poor track record exploiting cheap Indian Labour on infrastructure construction et al. (yes Saudi Arabia and UAE – I’m looking at you).
They need to take Syrian/Gaza refuges and afford them these jobs as opposed to importing poorly treated Indian workers. This also applies to refugees from Africa. Why should Europe shoulder this burden? Many (if not most) are of Islam faith, Arab states to demonstrate their faith’s values by looking after their “folk”.
Agreed. Their is an arabic word or phrase that translate to “movement or travel jihad.” Basically it means spreading the faith by immigration. If you want to know more about it, there is an academic online resource called: The Centre for the Study of Political Islam. No need to delay this reply by adding the link, it’s easy to find. It will help understand the following. It is eye opening to see things through a fundamentalist prism. Splitting islamic actions into the various faith driven components.
To understand why islamic states would rather have “the faithful” settle in “dar al-harb” rather than “dar al-sulh.” Requires a little background knowledge of fundamentalist islam. Everything including the purchase of forgiven assets ( including football clubs BTW) is viewed as peacefully spreading islamic influence into the land of the infidel. In preparation for conversion of those lands. It is why muslim countries of the middle east and Africa do not complain about loosing their young men of military age to “hijrah.” To you average street walking average raghead it’s obvious. But we just don’t get it without being (re)educated in the fundamentals of islam.
Since 1990 I’ve invested time studying islam and what makes it tick. Filed away under know your hosts, allies and enemies. Distinguishing between them is difficult. Thankfully there are plenty of good translations of the ideologies three main documented facets. The hadiths, surra and koran. Everything one needs to know about islam is there. A tale spun around allah and mohammed. Also of great interest and equal importance (my opinion only) are the numerous texts dedicated to the many possible interpretations of the above trilogy. . Some of them are quite modern and more important than others. Many are inherently peaceful but most are not!
To make your journey into darkness a little less tedious. The most important from our military perspective were the teachings of Sayyid Qutb. Look him up because he was a major influence of Bin Laden and many modern radical Sunnis of that evil ilk. He was a scholar of the Muslim Brotherhood and an ardent anti-western antagonist. He hated our western democratic Judaeo-Christian society and in his book “Mile Stones” he preached violent jihad of all kinds. Including by hijrah.
Vile creatures like to record their devilish ideas in books. Hitler, Marx and Mao Zedong etc. Being a former British soldier and life long champion/defender of our freedom loving society. I add the alleged prophet mohammed and Qutb to that long list, for obvious reasons.