Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S) has procured additional Carl-Gustaf M4 multi-role weapon systems to equip the British Army on operations.

A £4.6 million order has been placed with Saab, which includes a package of ammunition and training.

These weapons will replace the Anti-Structure Munitions the UK sent to support Ukraine against the Russian invasion last year.

The Carl-Gustaf recoilless rifle is a versatile system that enables dismounted soldiers to effectively address various challenges and targets on the modern battlefield, firing a range of 84mm calibre munitions for diverse operational objectives.

The Army first adopted the Carl-Gustaf in its M2 variant towards the end of the 1960s, known in the UK as “Mark 2,” as an infantry anti-tank capability. This procurement is the latest negotiated by DE&S for Swedish-developed military equipment.

In December, DE&S signed a contract with Saab to replenish the UK’s stock of NLAW anti-tank weapons, which have been invaluable to Ukraine in defending their nation from Russian aggression.

You can read more on this here.

Lisa West
Lisa West
Lisa has a degree in Media & Communication from Glasgow Caledonian University and works with industry news, sifting through press releases in addition to moderating website comments.

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115 COMMENTS

    • (a) Bakmut hasn’t fallen
      (b) There’s no abandoned NATO equipment lying on the ground there

      If you want this months pay check from the Kremlin you’ll need to try harder.

      • Firstly, what the hell are you accusing me of?
        It is becoming tiresome and completely inaccurate. I’m a British War Pensioner you buffoon. My loyalty to Q&C now K&C God rest Her soul, has been proven. Now that I am a PFC again, I can and will voice my opinion. It is my birth right. If you don’t like it. Go swivel.

        By the best available but not always believable reports. Bakhmut note the spelling Sean/Shaun, has fallen. 80% of it is allegedly in Russian or Donetsk’s hands. Not an outcome anyone wanted but given the size of the two sides involved, it was predictable. To assume no equipment has been smashed in the process and left behind is rather naive. Have you ever walked over a battlefield when the enemy have been pushed out or fled. It is horrendous and videos do not capture half of the true experience. The smell alone clings to clothes and equipment. It stays up the nose and never leaves the unconscious memory.

        SI VIS PACEM PAR A BELLVM not the peace dividend – Si vis bellum par a pacem
        We should be rearming and recruiting as a matter of urgency. The world has turned and it’s a far more dangerous place in 2023. Not because a small eastern european city has fallen. It is more dangerous because the geopolitical balance has shifted as a direct consequence of the 2014 Ukrainian coup and war.

        The rejuvenated Russian/ChiCom alliance is the worst possible outcome for NATO, GB and our global allies. It offsets inflicting harm on Putin’s Russia. It offsets depleting their stocks of old soviet weapons. They will replace them with CCP help and learn important lessons for next time. This war will also motivate ordinary grieving Russians to hate Western nations more than before. As for the CCP, they must think it’s Christmas and lady luck has smiled on them. This proxy war has weakened NATO mobilisation stocks and highlighted potential cracks in the alliance. Making plans to invade Taiwan more likely than ever to succeed. Probably bringing them forward a few years in the process.

        • For a supposed former member of our armed forces you show an amazing lack of strategic comprehension. I would expect better from a former serviceman, assuming you are being honest Georgina.

          At best you’re being one of Kremlin’s “useful idiots”, at worst you’re deliberately undermining efforts to contain the threat by Russia.

          As it is, the narrative you are spinning is unraveling. First you stated Bakhmut has “fallen”, now you say “80% allegedly taken”. Which is it? Cite your sources – RT is not acceptable.

          You seem to have a very simplistic attitude to war, that the largest side inevitably wins with the outcome not determined by any other factors. If there is one lesson from the Ukraine war is that pure size doesn’t guarantee success.

          And no evidence of NATO weapons being abandoned at Bakhmut. Can you supply any evidence of MLRS or HIMARS or AS90s or NLAWS or Javelins being abandoned there?
          Certainly in the aftermath of a battle, there will be the personnel weapons of those who have fallen: rifles, sidearms, grenades. But these are not the armaments that NATO has been supplying en masse to the Ukraine.

          There is no China/Russia alliance, undoubtedly much to Putin’s annoyance. Western intelligence has found no evidence of China supplying ANY weapons or munitions to Russia since the war began. If you claim that’s an alliance then it’s a worthless one.
          Yes obviously they both, along with North Korea, Iran, Cuba, etc have a beef with the West and the USA in particular. But these countries aren’t flooding Russia with weapons because they’ve seen the effect of Western sanctions, realise that they would be liable for war reparations, and can see that Russia is losing.
          Nobody backs a loser.

          Existing war stocks have been diminished in NATO. But the length and consumption of this conflict has caused NATO planners to reevaluate the size of war stocks needed and the manufacturing capacity needed. By the end of this war, weapon and especially munitions production will have greatly increased beyond pre-war levels, which strengthens NATO.

          • Sean, well said. Another point to add is that by the end of this conflict, Russia will be a much diminished state and will take a generation to recover. Yes the Chinese are watching and it has given them pause. Two things especially, the first parades and war games are not the same as battles. Chinese troops are untested and if you note Chinese blogs, the military is old fashioned corrupt and unpopular (ring a bell?). Secondly, an island is even harder to invade 3/1 becomes 20/1.

          • People said the same thing about the Chinese before they overran the Korean peninsula. Only one thing is certain about the Sun Tzu obsessed ChiComs and their intentions towards Taiwan. When the takeover happens, it will be in an unexpected manner and a forgone conclusion. Perhaps even without a shot being fired. Crimea 2014, all over again. “The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.”

          • The Chinese didn’t overrun the Korean Peninsula. The existence of South Korea proves that!! 😆

            Obviously any nation tries to achieve its ends by other means first, with war being the very last option due to the inherent risk of losing.
            Thanks for stating the obvious 🤦🏻‍♂️

          • Why resort to verbal abuse instead of challenging Sean’s knowledge and defending your own?

          • I’ve shown you to be a liar to everyone thats on this forum.
            I don’t think need to waste any more time on your delusions.

          • Precisely, Russia will likely taken a generation to recover – assuming it doesn’t fragment further.

            China will have been shocked by the unanimity shown by western governments of all political persuasions in sanctioning Russia and rallying to give military aid to Ukraine. China has a totalitarian view, and believes strength is achieved through uniformity. It sees diversity as weakness and a threat, hence its genocide against the Uighurs and Tibetans.
            Yet the west with all its diversity has shown solidarity against Russia.

            Its untested shiny new military must also be a concern, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they attempt to gain actual combat experience in some regional conflict.

            Russia has struggled with Ukraine, slashing back its war ambitions from taking the entire country to try to hold into 10%. With Taiwan it’s all or nothing, and it being an island makes it far far more difficult a proposition.

            The Chinese won’t move on Taiwan until they are certain they can take it, which means far bigger and powerfully armed forces than they have today. The risk of a humiliating defeat would be too great for the CCP.

          • That response simply proves you can’t refute any of the points I’ve made or the holes in your arguments I pointed out.

            QED

          • Spot on 👍Yet he can’t stop posting on our comments.

            I thought he said he was an Insurance broker?

            “My knowledge is limited” finally 😂

            SEAN

            “I look forward to the contributions of Airborne, Gunbuster, Danielle, Farouk, etc.

            My knowledge is limited to what I can read in the public domain, or from the small amount of specialist defence work my company does.

            These individual’s can all contribute first-hand knowledge and experience, which is why I come here.

            What I don’t come here for is Russian trolls like JohnInMK, the Kremlin’s “useful idiots” like George , or pompous asses like yourself that seek to hijack every article possible to vent your personal fetishes.” 

        • Ring any bells.

          “Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance.

          They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others.”

          Sense of self-importance.
          Arrogant.
          Interpersonally exploitative for their own gain.
          Preoccupation with power or success.
          Entitled.
          Lack empathy.

          • 👍 At least we understand the problem.

            Why do narcissists get angry so quickly?

            The narcissist’s false self is exposed, causing distress that leads to narcissistic rage. Narcissists are extremely sensitive individuals with very low self-esteem. When their shortcomings are pointed out, they become defensive and frustrated.

        • George much to discus with your post but one glaring inaccuracy needs addressing, as the Russian invasion of Ukraine has actually had a positive effect on NATO insofar that it has strengthened it physically with the inclusion of previous none aligned countries and has highlighted its previous neglect of war sticks, which is being addressed. And let’s not forget that NATO platforms are currently doing what they have been designed for, killing Russians and reducing Russian capabilities, but with a Ukrainian at the helm.

  2. ABC Rodney- we wont need many- I reckon about 36 guns should be enough- that is all the deployable available force the British Army now has left.
    £4.6 million should easily cover the requirement. Its very cheap equipping your armed forces if you have a minimal force level. Sunak and Hunt can sit in No 10+11 Downing Street patting themselves on the back for a job well done in bringing their own government induced budget deficit under control.

    • I see you woke up as cynical as me this morning! I had my sister and her husband up to see us in Norfolk last weekend, both of whom are RAF Officers. It was interesting to see their reticent admissions of how disappointed they were about the sad decline of our forces particularly with regard to station/barrack closures. I have my thoughts about it, my mum has her own back in Lincolnshire given the news Scampton is now going to be an immigrant detention place and not a £300m aviation heritage centre as agreed last year. Sadly not enough people get animated about defence, history or the result of neglecting the two.

      • And what will happen to the grave of Guy Gibson’s dog (can’t now be named for political correctness). Its outside No4 Hangar. I used to walk past it on my walk to work. It part of RAF history.

        • I wish I knew what the longer term plan was JJ, so do most of the community. I doffed my cap to his grave during the last Red Arrows family day I attended. And looked around Guys office which was sympathetically kept. I do hope none of that gets adjusted. Current plan is to house people on Portacabins on the runway which is telling of how much the accommodation blocks have deteriorated.

          • Ok, a shame distorting historical facts for the sake of keeping certain parts of society happy. When I was there in the 1990s, it was of course the original headstone.

          • It wasn’t the best name choice, even in the 40s it was a fairly nasty word

          • Not at all, it’s the name of a west African river! I used to know someone who named her dog Mersey. It’s only an insult in the minds of the easily offended. People like that need professional help, not an alteration of our language or history.
            I wonder how they react to the written works of Rudyard Kipling. The great man once correctly said. “Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind.”

            How right he was.

          • You really are rather ignorant, aren’t you? Attempting to justify the vile N word because you think there is a river in Africa with the same name.

            Your views are antediluvian closet racism.

        • Therein lies the problem JJ. A reluctance of the British to correct foolishness in the young, for fear of causing offence. “Oh it’s just a phase, they will realise how things are and grow out of it.”

      • Hi Andy. The word “woke” has recently acquired something of a notoriously negative connotation. It is the misguided attitude of today, which has us looking on our proud history as something to be ashamed of. The decline you describe is the direct result of the so-called peace dividend. Itself a manifestation of wokeness.

    • I wouldn’t mind betting that someone in Whitehall has said ‘well the Russian army is now much weaker than a year ago, so we can safely reduce our own force strength and save money’.

        • That has been the case for a while now. The regular army has been cut once or twice a decade since the end of the Korean War in 1953.

        • Pretty sure the British Army in the 18th Century didn’t have Apache helicopters, MLRS, or Challenger tanks…

          • We’re not fighting against muskets, swords & cannons now in case you haven’t noticed. In the late C18th we had a large global fleet.

          • In the late C18th we had a large global empire to finance it, in case you hadn’t noticed.

            You might also have failed to notice that unlike the C18th, we are members of the most powerful military alliance the planet has ever seen.

          • Says the bloke who actually said

            “Pretty sure the British Army in the 18th Century didn’t have Apache helicopters, MLRS, or Challenger tanks…”

            Stick to Call of Duty.

          • The point being made that in the 18th century there wasn’t really force multipliers like Apaches, MLRS, etc.
            But you obviously can only think in literal terms, and not conceptually.

            Stick to banging your head against the padded walls.

          • Bit whiney.

            My point (which has clearly gone straight over your sulky little head) is that while we did not have force multipliers such as AH, nor did the enemy.

            Peer on peer. Have a think.

            Now, hush.

          • We have Apache and Challengers.
            The enemy has Mil Mi-24 and T72s.

            You basic number counting equates these as being equivalent, which they clearly aren’t. Besides superior technology, we have better training for the crews, and better tactics for their use. All of which has been seen in Ukraine.

            No doubt in your simplistic comparison you’d equate 1 of our trained professional soldiers as being equivalent to 1 Russian convict-conscript.

            You’re not an accountant are you?

        • It has fallen below the minimum level to self sustain itself. Too few recruits coming through to pick good NCO’s and field officers to replace those leaving. If fully deployed in a peer on peer or near peer conflict, things become worse. There will be a serious lack of good instructors to train conscripts. The best would be fully stretched leading the rest in battle.

          Gone are the days when a few weeks square bashing and sessions on the range will suffice. Helicopters and advanced equipment laden armoured vehicles, do not operate themselves. Neither do they self repair. Its an over simplification but the modern integrated battlespace is IT intensive, requiring a level of understanding far in advance of previous generations. Which in turn makes training to proficiency a lengthy process.

          Even if the bean counters throw everything they have at the problem. It is going to take at least a decade to double the size of our army and maintain any level of effectiveness.

          • What nonsense, where is this mythical place in which the British army deploys alone? If contributors want to be taken seriously, they should give up this “it was better in the old days” nonsense. The past is history! We live in the age of NATO deployments.

          • The events between 2/4/82 and 14/6/82 would indicate otherwise. I don’t recall any mythical NATO forces involved in that conflict. FYI The 32 member NATO alliance has never been tested. You must have a powerful crystal ball to be so sure of the future.

            When it comes to national defence, deterrence works. Peace by superior firepower is a reality. Common-sense would suggest, it pays to hope for the best but always be well prepared for the worst. Even if that means being prepared to be let down by allies.
            SI VIS PACEM PAR A BELLVM

          • Agree in regard to much if your thought process George, not all by any means but an outlook which promotes a decent and capable defence with a worse case scenario situation. I personally think a little more positive in regards to our NATO allies as we all have pretty much the same vested interests which will ensure a more combined approach to future situations 👍

          • When talking about EU members of NATO, we are direct competitors and not simply allies. They seem intent on threatening our sovereignty and restarting the troubles in Northern Ireland. Rival economic interests is one of the common causes of war. Just saying.

            BTW, did you contribute to the fundraising initiative.
            That was why you asked for the details, wasn’t it?

          • Nope, I only contribute to the RBL and guide dogs for the blind! I was just intrigued as to your case to donate to that specific charity!

          • OK mate, it’s not something I would usually do either. But the chance came out of the blue, so I went along to meet the people and ended up playing chess! Always best to get the info straight from the horse’s mouth. Nice people and understandably very worried about what is going on in the Eastern Orthodox lands.

      • You joke but I’m certain they are saying that very thing. Making such big news of acquiring more of the venerable Charlie G, smacks of deflecting attention away from the important issues. It’s the things they do not mention in public we should be worried about. Our top brass should be up on their hind legs complaining bitterly about the state of the armed forces. About lack of numbers and the equipment deficits in particular. Never mind the impact of the woke mentality on martial prowess.

        • It’s the venerable Charlie G agreed, but totally different ammunition natures, and that alone makes it a different and so much more capable system. Sometimes the old and bold forget about the more modern capabilities of such systems as never having experienced or used/seen them in action.

          • It’s troop numbers and big items such as main battle tanks, tracked artillery pieces and new IFVs we are short of. Celebrating the purchase of a few shoulder launched section weapons, fools nobody. I’m waiting for the MOD to place a large order for mountain bikes with Shimano. To keep the troops fit while advancing to contact and reducing their carbon footprints!
            That announcement should be worth a press conference with fine wine and cheeses.

            This old and bold, recalls using the 22 cal training round for the Charlie G on indoor ranges. Good practice for loading drills and predicting lead on moving targets. Without the cost of live HESH rounds or the usual burst blood vessels in the firing teams noses. No “here we are Ivan” back blast.
            Do they still have the same .22 training round in service?

            I’m old enough to remember the L6 WOMBAT known affectionately as the VC gun. The medal usually being awarded posthumously. A reputation carried over to the Charlie G by the way. Remember, it was originally envisaged as an infantry anti armour weapon. To be used by your average Tom, facing off against massed attacks by the proper soviet tank armies. Not the shower we see today.

          • The Army is short of many things but let’s not forget that no matter what big ticket items is deemed necessary, it’s the lack of CS and CSS which makes the Army pretty much a one shot wonder! I remember both the Charlie and the Wombat! Also remember the drill round which was used as punishment drills at depot!!!!

  3. Just to clarify the above article, the Charlie G has been purchased to replace (yes replace) the Matador Anti-Structure Munition which we purchased to knock holes in Afghan compound walls allowing us to enter them from a direction the jundies weren’t expecting and thus bypass any booby traps or a welcoming camp followers. It also has a secondary capability of taking out lightly armed vehicles, but saying that there is a video of one taking out a Russian tank.

    • I’d imagine that’s one of the German RGW 90s in the video which are the original light anti-tank variants. Ukraine bought about 5K and received another 8K off the Germans in donations so they’ve been pretty common in the urban fighting against Russian armour.

        • I’m well aware. I was explaining to Farouk that the weapon being used in the video was almost certainly a German anti-tank MATADOR model, designated RGW 90, and not a British anti-structure MATADOR model, designated L2A1 ASM.

          • If you want video of L2A1 ASM in use you just need to look at the videos of their use in Mariupol very early on.

            All were marked L2A1 ASM….the UK managed to deliver them early on and the Ukrainian’s either got them there by road before it was surrendered or by one of the helo resupplies. Video exists of them killing BTR’s and BMP. It still has a tandem charge and will take out anything short of a MBT.

        • They would still have their uses!

          “Russian YouTuber struck down by NATO rocket launcher – because he held the weapon wrong

          A Russian YouTuber has been mocked on social media after sharing a video of himself attempting to fire a Swedish AT4 rocket launcher.

          In the clip, Alexey Smirnov appears to miss the handle, and ended up being struck down by the misfired blast. He then declared that the NATO weapon is a “piece of s***”.

          However, the clip has since been compared to videos of American troops firing the launcher correctly – by holding the front handle.”

          LINK

    • The QM kept getting a bit pissed when we were using Javelins to do the job. The frame charges were ok, but couldn’t be guaranteed, as it depended on the thickness of the wall. The Canadian Leos’ however, could always put a door in the wall.

      We did borrow a CG from the Canadians. Weighs a bloody ton after tabbing for 20k to an OP. However, it’s a really easy to use and did the job, when required. The concussion from firing though is something else.

      • Davey B:

        “”We did borrow a CG from the Canadians. Weighs a bloody ton after tabbing for 20k to an OP.””

        As the smallest bloke in our section (RE) I was the one tasked to carry the Charlie G. On ranges we used a sub calbre device which fired a .22 tracer round, and only fired the real thing at Lyde and Hythe (some back blast) standard SOP was for the nbr 2 to hug me whislt checking the rear for obstructions and idiots walking into the BB area.

        I’m glad to see that it has been updated (made a lot lighter) and that the range of rounds it now comes with (we only had HE) has increased. Most impressed with the 84 mm ADM 401 roundWhich combats enemy troops in the open and soft‑skinned vehicles by launching a cluster of flechettes.

        • Hi Mate, prior to Afghan I had never touched let alone fired a CG. Our training consisted of firing at some old vehicles on a range at Gracelands. The Canadians didn’t have any practice rounds, only HE, Illum and AP. So we were using AP on old Hiluxs and trucks. Let’s just say AP makes a total mess of a Hilux.

          This is where we quickly discovered the huge back blast. But more importantly the concussion affects felt on the body. I remember them mentioning that during training, you were only allowed to fire the CG a couple of times concurrently. Otherwise it could damage your body. Guess during operations that becomes a minor inconvenience!

          After camping out in the sticks for a couple of weeks, waiting for a HVT to turn up. I can attest to the CG being a bloody good door opener.

  4. In the same UK MoD press release

    “Yesterday, during a meeting between Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and his Sweden counterpart Pål Jonson in London, a letter of intent was signed relating to a new contract to deliver 14 Swedish-built Archer heavy artillery guns to the British Army.”

    • Amazing how such a small Country like Sweden can produce and provide a whole series of wide ranging and ongoing weaponry at many levels than a County supposedly 5/6th biggest economy in the World can’t sustain and yet not damage its standard of living in doing so. Geez what would we do if we couldn’t buy all this stuff from them, our under stocked Army would be firing peashooters… probably made in China at that. They seem capable of designing stuff that remains in production carefully updated for decades and find markers well beyond their own needs that are negligible compared to us in most regards. This gun goes back to the 60s, was pretty much replaced by most militaries at the turn of the Century for ‘superior weapons’ and after a year in Ukraine where a great video saw it wipe out a T-72 it’s now back into demand as an effective, relatively cheap alternative to other more sophisticated missile systems. I suspect part of the reasoning is that the belief that conflicts will be quickly won or lost in 21 C warfare isn’t quite the logic once applied and an near endless supply of increasingly obsolete equipment needs something a little less costly and difficult to produce to keep up the pressure on the battlefield. Glad that the naivety has diminished at least a little in such matters.

  5. Very off topic this question but when is the SA80 being replaced? It would be great to have a UK defence journal article on potential replacements. We don’t really focus too much on small arms in the UK and it would be good to have some articles in this area.

    • The Colt Canada C8 rifle was selected in 2021 for the new Army Special Operations Brigade. Wether that’s likely to become a future SA80 replacement for the infantry, who knows. I’d be surprised(but pleased, so long as we don’t cock it up & or result in lengthy delays to introduction) if we go for a new home designed & made individual weapon, probably source one from the abundance of existing ones elsewhere, but we’ll see. Hopefully the realities fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan & lessons from poor dear Ukraine will spur something sensible.

      • I agree we’ll source from overseas our small arms but would be useful to have some internal capacity but I guess our army is so shrunken these days its difficult to justify the expense of having some manufacturing capacity in the UK. It does make me wonder if we did have a major conflict in Europe and the Pacific simulateneously how would maintain a supply chain. I guess this goes for most equipment in the uK. However, additive manufacturing/3D printing might be the key longer term for small arms manufacture in the UK. However, it’s the bullets (along with shells and other munitions) that we really need to have a manufacturing capacity in the UK I think. That’s assuming that advances in compact power systems and electromagnetic acceleration technologies over the next thirty years don’t lead to rail type guns for side arms and rifles in the middle of this century…might be a fantasy but you never know and then the bullet would go the way of the Brown bess…then additive manufacture would come into its own then…

      • The C8 was not one of the weapons in the tender, the trials are still going on.
        The weapons tendered are the following, H&K 416, Daniels Defence,Knights Arms Corps & the Glock rifle all are AR 15 platforms.
        UKSF have also purchased the KAC SR 16 to replace the L119A2, the L400A1 and a new sight to replace ACOG.

          • With improved night vision.

            “Thales XTRAIM weapon sight mounted on a Sig Sauer MCX Virtus .300 BLK rifle.” 

            LINK

          • Also interesting to see Finland and Sweeden investing in new rifles.

            Finland and Sweden jointly procure rifles from Sako
            “Finland and Sweden are jointly procuring assault and sniper rifles from Finnish company Sako. The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) and the logistics department of the Finnish Defence Forces (FDF) signed a framework agreement on the joint procurement with Sako at its factory in Riihimäki on 27 March.”

            LINK

      • At the end of the day the C8 is just an AR platform with a slightly larger gas port. This means that after prolonged contacts, even though the port feeding the block starts gumming up. There’s still enough gas hitting it to cycle the weapon. It does generate a slightly heavier recoil than a US AR platform.

        Both Sig and HK have a platform that mimics the ergonomics of the AR. But uses a short push rod to cycle the weapon rather than direct gas impingement. This does make it slightly heavier. But does mean that as the gas port starts gumming up, you can alter the port diameter to let more gas through to keep the weapon operating. Therefore you can pump more rounds through a Sig/HK before you start running into stoppages due to not enough gas pushing the working parts back.

        With the HK and L85, you can do staged cleaning in the field. Such as removing the gas parts for a quick clean. Then do the rest when you have more time. If the cack hit the fan with these parts removed. You can still manually cycle the weapon.

        Having used the M4, L81A2 and HK416 among others operationally. I have a preference for the HK due to its ergonomics, ease of cleaning and reliability. However, the L81A2 is still in my experience still the most accurate, especially when using the fore-grip bipod and the later ACOG and ELCAN sights.

    • The ‘Ranger’ regiment will have an AR type rifle. Rumour has it that the winning bid may may pave the way to become the next standard issue to the rest.
      My wager would be Sig MCX-Spear LT. SAS been using it for a while I believe.

      • Correct, in two calibres 5.56 mm & 7.62 x 35 or 300” Blackout to our American friends, in a variety of barrel lengths from a tiny 6” to 14.4”.

    • I have seen articles talk about L85A3 (only issued from 2018) being in service ‘to 2025 or beyond; or ‘throughout the 2020s’.

      • The question will be does it still do the job as required? Is it knackered, bits breaking etc? Does a new rifle bring anything substantially better than the current one?
        Depending on the answers to the questions, should decide on if a new gun is needed soon.
        If the switch was made to the 6.8mm round by more countries perhaps we will see other guns chambered to that.

        • The Americans have paused the 6.8mm over reliability issues with the rifle. It was too powerful to replace 5.56, so they are now looking at a .264? that fits in a 5.56 size well. Going from memory, FN showed a prototype recently. Will see if I can find it.

          • .264 LICC (lightweight intermediate cartridge developed for the US IWTSD (irregular warfare directorate). FN showed off the rifle & cartridge at SHOT show 2023. Now that Manroy is owned by FN, it could be made in the UK by FN Manroy, if HMG wanted to.

        • A3s should not be unable to do the job – they are remanufactured from A2 and are straight off ‘the production line’. However, I am sure we will switch to a new 6.8mm weapon if that calibre is accepted as a NATO standard.

          • The U.K. pretty much tested loads of bullets after WW2 and the .280 was seen as the best fit at the time. Seems it’s still pretty spot on.
            A missed opportunity and once again it will be america that picks and nato follows. Hopefully they pick the best for the job.

        • I’ve read somewhere that the new weapon system (whatever platform is decided) will be delivered at a rate of 10k per year. So we’re easily looking at the mid to late 2030’s before we see the L85 withdrawn from service.

    • I hope we have or will buy a large stock of assault rifles in addition to whatever is in service to enable us to more rapidly arm new troops if ever needed. We need to be prepared to grow forces fast again. It’s only prudent in a dangerous & unstable world.

      • Totally agree Frank. We should also be equiping our soliders with the best equipment. The snatch land rover debacle must never happen again with our troops – so many unnessary deaths and injuries..All governments seem to commit our troops but never give them the proper equipment to do the job. Also not keen that we prosecuted lots of our troops from former conflicts (e.g., Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan). We need a much much higher bar of evidence. I was reading that some Afghans (not involved in the conflict) were trying to get them and their children shot by UK and US forces to claim compensation and I can well believe this to be true.We should designate theatres of war just as that and unless they demonstrate conclusively some kind of targetting of civilians then any claims are completely ignored. For example, a legitimate prosection would be for things akin to the Vietnam war Mỹ Lai massacre where villagers were targetted and soliders themselves came forward with evidence. I’ll be honest Alexander Blackman getting charged and convicted for putting a bullet in an insurgent terrorist most likely dead or dying was completely unncessary and unjustified. if they had to charge him to appease some folk in the UK then neglect of duty and misconduct with a temporary reduction in rank for 1 year should have been the maximum penalty…However, I digress again it just annoys me when politicians send soldiers to conflict zones don’t give them the necessary equipment and then blow the ground from under their feet with ambulance chasing lawyers..I also wonder why our troops often wear cameras…I don’t like this concept as I believe it encourages troops to take their own war footage and also gets people to rake over split moment decisions in the comfort of an arm chair..Those lawyers spring to mind when they look over footage and say why did you do x, y and z when the fact that bombs and bullets were flying around doesn’t enter these lawyers tiny minds.Also our newspapers spring to mind as well…especially that mirror article about the Iraq war that was utterly and completely debunked…never saw that slimy toad of an editor ever apologise for what he did to the good name of our troops…but then again why would he he is one of those arm chair generals in his leafy 6 bed mansion….and also someone that has an impecable life that never did any wrong….One would wish they dropped him in a conflict zone with little amunition with insurgents and terrorists all around.Rant over now…

        • Andrew, the Snatch LR was sourced to provide a better lightly armoured vehicle for NI. When the Afghan conflict happened (came out of nowhere, so no time to source new kit initially) Snatch was deployed as it was ‘all hands to the pumps’. I understand it performed OK (against Taliban SAA) until the Taliban switched tactics and then majored in exploding massive IEDs under passing British vehicles.
          Snatch replacement was a fast-tracked UOR which resulted in a suite of good PM vehicles. I was in the UOR vehicles team at Abbey Wood – some minor miracles were achieved in very rapidly fielding kit that was more suited to changing Theatre requirements.
          Every conflict we have ever been in has been the same.

          • Dear Graham,

            This was not a criticism of the MoD and their procurement experts. However, it would be interesting to know the equivalebt vehicle the US were using when they were deployed. We did have experience before of insugencies and terrorism from NI and it does make me wonder whether it wouldn’t have been a major leap in understanding to assume that road side bombs would be deployed and we need better equipment to protect our troops. We need to anticipate threats and theatres of war more often. If we keep on making very big mistakes like the snatch land rover then this indicates we aren’t doing enough war gaming to anticipate threats.

            I would like to say though that I have due admiration for all the staff at Bristol Abbeywood. They do sterling work under challenging conditions with the treasury not asisting very often. We do have a good defence minister at the moment though and he seems to be doing a great job.

            Lastly, I think our Navy and Airforce are doing reasonably well at the moment but the army needs some serious investment in simple things like soldiers liviing quarters. We also need to look carefully at the kit we order. I would like to see much better integration longer term with the US on their equipment purchases. The Royal Navy, with the submarine programme, seems to be leading the way in this regard…would be great to see our army do the same but they do need the investment and we have too few troops…need to get them back above 100,000 again. I would like to see some streamlining of the admin side of things in the MoD as well if possible. We need more technical specialists in the MoD and less paper pushers.

            Best wishes,

            Matt

          • Dear Matt, Thanks for the reply. Not sure how fair it is to compare our Defence equipment with that of the only superpower in the world, with an incredible budget!

            US had the original unarmoured M998 HMMWV and the M1114, an armoured HMMWV to withstand small arms fire (in production since 1996). The M1114 was roughly equivamlent to the UK Snatch in that it was armoured to withstand SAA (and hurled stones!) but not huge IEDs.
            So the US was in the same boat as us.

            Many US servicement died in Iraq in HMMWVs from IED strikes. From Wiki: “With the onset of the Iraq War, Humvees proved very vulnerable to IEDs; in the first four months of 2006, 67 U.S. troops died in Humvees. To increase protection, the U.S. military hastily added armor kits to the vehicles. Although this somewhat improved survivability, bolting on armor made the Humvee an “ungainly beast”, increasing weight and putting a strain on the chassis, which led to unreliability. Armored doors that weighed hundreds of pounds were difficult for troops to open, and the newly armored turret made Humvees top-heavy and increased the danger of rollovers. The U.S. Marine Corps decided to start replacing Humvees in combat with Mine-Resistant, Ambush-Protected (MRAP) vehicles in 2007′

            so the US went down a very similar road to the UK in initiating UOR programmes. MRAPs, such as Cougar and MaxxPro, were delivered to deployed US forces starting in Spring 2008.

            Much equipment is supplied through UORs as the threat changes in Theatre or the deployed equipment proves to be unsuited or not optimised to terrain or climate.

            It is not surprising to me that core equipment often needs modifying or replacing to meet the unique circumstances of a particular Theatre with a particular enemy and his ever-changing tactics and equipment. It is not practical or affordable for every soldier to have a very heavily armoured vehicle to rise in. [As a REME OC in Germany, if the Cold War had become a hot war, I would have been driving around the battlefield in an unarmoured LR alongside unarmoured trucks – not at all unusual].

            Some Single Soldiers Living acomodation (SSLA) has been upgraded to a very high standard but not all. Only 3 years ago I stayed in the very same barracks in Folkestone (Napier Bks) with ACF cadets (males and females aged 12-18) – that were later condemned by the Home Office and pressure groups as ‘primitive’ and ‘unfit for purpose’ for the asylum seekers who were put in there, only they were not paying rent and our soldiers were!

            Army AFV procurement has been a mess for a generation – no new tracked AFVs fielded in 20 years and precious few vehicles even seriously upgraded – disgrace. Too many tritely blame stupid, incompetent or lazy senior officers – it is far more complicated than that.

            The army needs to be at 120,000 regulars – that was the number set for the post-Cold War army following reasonable analysis, in Options for Change. Reductions since then have not been justified by reduced threats/missions/tasking etc.

            Best wishes
            Graham

          • Agreed mate the snatch was ideal for NI but a bad call for Herrick 4 onwards! But, as you say and many of us do understand, it was a best effort at short notice, with the limited suitable platforms available. But still rather a snatch than a fucking Vector……

      • AFAIK, we do not buy huge stocks of extra kit on the off-chance that the army might be rapidly expanded – or keep kit that has been declared obsolete and replaced with a successor equipment. There are no Bren guns in Donnington!

  7. Many sources name Charlie G as an anti-tank rifle or recoilless rifle – bit hard to get the butt into your shoulder though! …and how many rifles are 84mm calibre!
    We used to call these things bazookas, then rocket launchers.

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