Brimstone 2 is being supplied to Ukraine by Britain.

Video of Brimstone 2 missiles being delivered by the Royal Air Force to assist Ukraine in repelling Russian soldiers has surfaced.

Typically, the missiles are launched from the air. However, to use as mobile launch platforms for long-range missile attacks against Russian tanks and other vehicles, the Ukrainian military has adapted trucks.

About six months ago, Britain first provided Ukraine with Brimstone missiles. But a video made public by the British Forces Broadcasting Service last month showed the more sophisticated model being readied for shipment at RAF Brize Norton.

The missiles can select their own target from a pre-programmed list using an extremely high-frequency millimetric wave radar, or they can track a laser fired by soldiers, aircraft, or vehicles to hit their target. Each missile costs roughly £175,000. Brimstone can be used with extreme precision in densely populated regions when guided by a laser fired by friendly soldiers, reducing the possibility of collateral damage among civilians.

British weapon supply flights, the first taking off before the invasion started, continue day and night to supply Ukraine with weapons with which to defend itself against invading Russian forces.

The supply flights started before the invasion and have not stopped since. However, they now land in Poland near the Ukrainian border.

The UK recently announced that it would supply “scores of artillery guns, hundreds of drones” plus 50,000 rounds and more anti-tank weapons to Ukraine in the coming weeks.

“The delivery of the new equipment will significantly step up the UK’s support as the country fights to repel Russia’s brutal and unjustified invasion.”

More than 20 M109 155mm self-propelled guns and 36 L119 105mm artillery guns will soon arrive from the UK, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace announced in an update to Parliament today. Counter-battery radar systems and more than 50,000 rounds of ammunition for Ukraine’s existing Soviet-era artillery will also follow, he added.

 

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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144 COMMENTS

  1. We will be getting so much data from this and all the other kit we have sent. We really should thank Russia for providing live targets for it all. We’ll be seeing the results in future systems and programs for decades to come. Mr Putin thank you.

    • Good point- haven’t seen a great deal about how successful they are, but I presume the MOD is getting more info than we are! I can only think of one video of what is supposed to be a pair of Brimstone hitting separate targets, and maybe a couple of launches- that’s it. Maybe the ground-launched Brimstone doesn’t quite have the range to be helpful, hence Brimstone 2 with double the range?

      • Yep you could be right. All I know is what’s publicly available. Others on site might have more inside info. It’ll be interesting to see what future programs are given the green light and what are shut down or adjusted. That might be the best source for what systems have worked as advertised and what hasn’t. Either way the info we’re getting is priceless.

      • They’ll be trying to but there tech industry is minimal and out of date. eg They’ve known about and had copies of Stinger since the mid eighties and still have no coutermeasures. Of course it’s software has been upgraded but the basic design hasn’t changed.

      • And like every other weapon that the West has sent the Russians will capture one or more and reverse engineer them and use them against us in the future. Russia has also sold captured weapons like the Javelin, NLOS, ect to the Chicoms.

    • It’s not £175k per missile.

      Thats only if you include all the development costs from the 1990’s and early 2000’s that have long since been amortised.

      Latest missile cost that has been published was in a Defence Select Committee response in 2018. Cost listed per missile then was £80,000.

      • Simply repeating cost data listed in article, which should probably be amended to reflect the additional breakdown of costs.

  3. “More than 20 M109 155mm self-propelled guns and 36 L119 105mm artillery guns will soon arrive from the UK, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace announced in an update to Parliament today. Counter-battery radar systems and more than 50,000 rounds of ammunition for Ukraine’s existing Soviet-era artillery will also follow, he added.”

    This is the interesting bit…

    Looks like those M109 that we purchased from the Belgian’s an age ago have taken a long time to be ready…be interesting to know what the hold up was as the Norwegians were able to deliver theirs from stock and get them operational very quickly…I can only think that the Belgian’s have been dicking us around, wholly new crews needed training or they were in a worse state than they should have been…which would be odd as they were stored indoors and had only been upgraded by the Belgians a couple of years before retirement.

    A lot of people have thought these were an additional batch of guns, but I think these are the ones mentioned months and months ago…can’t imagine we’d be able to pick up 20 M109 elsewhere easily. My money is on the Belgian’s dicking around…

    • I have to wonder how effective the 105mm artillery will be given the range issues. Anyone have any opinion on it and if we should just have something like the M777 which was originally a British weapon and make all our artillery 155mm.

      • 105mm, superb weapon system, light, mobile and moveable, range of 17.5 km with charge super, APS system utilising GPS, 10m CEP and able to be used where collateral damage needs to be considered. Fuze options PD, delay, Prox low/normal/high and easy to maintain. Worked with the RHA lads many times (my bro is RHA, was GCC and now LE Officer) as part of the FST and this bit of kit is ideal for the Ukrainians ongoing forward movement to remove the rapist nonce orcs from their land permanently. Cheers.

        • A question arises, prompted by this discussion: Presume UKR is able to conduct field level maintenance of most new systems; however, provisions for depot level activity? UKR? Poland? Some/all system donors? NATO certainly realizes logistics/maintenance are crucial in attrition warfare. 🤔

          • Poland. Its inside NATO territory and means nice and safe. Unless Russia really has a death wish they wont go there.

          • Must be mate! Possibly even private contractors techs (ex mil) being paid good money to do the second echelon repair work in Western Ukraine? But must be a logistic and repair chain going back and forth over the border, question is which one and where. I know the Ukrainians were having difficulty with the German 155mms availability due to lacking spares. Cheers.

          • Poland also a likely depot candidate.

            Once the real and complete story emerges, does anyone wish to wager that very select, currently serving, NATO military were not embedded w/ UKR as advisors? The advisors would have to have sufficient language skills to be able to pass as UKR. Potentially sporting proposition, if captured.

          • As soon as it gets over the border into Poland it could be back in the UK by truck within 24hrs. No real need to duplicate facilities in Poland. For US kit its a little different however…

        • Yep the Ukrainians ( and I know there is always some spin involved) have said a while back the weapon is ideal for their use being accurate, highly mobile and easily concealed. There are an awful lot of targets within its range whereby simply having to outrange the larger calibre isn’t the major consideration. I suspect it’s pretty damn useful on the West Bank of the Dnipro at the moment while hit and run in the Donbas in not especially easy conditions at this time of year probably gives them an advantage if used properly. The M777 being lightweight would certainly overall be a great alternative and the better on paper all round but I understand that it’s not the most robust of weapons due to that light weight so I suspect t there is still a place for a more rugged 105 mm if you can afford both. If I remember right the US is planning to use both calibers. .

          • And like you said mate it’s a rugged weapon system which is easily repaired, a factor which must be high on the Ukraine list!

      • Different range weapons will be used in different ways. If it was useless I doubt anyone would use it. Especially the British. First sniff of not needing something and it’s out to pasture.

        • Thanks, appreciate the link. Estimate of 2,650 before replacement of M777 barrel? Thought that number was between 5-7.5K.
          Damn, there must be a steady stream in transit between UJR and Poland.

      • Jim i think the 105mm light guns might be ok. They can be quickly deployed by relatively light truck and tracked vehicles or medium weight helos. Fire rounds off then bug out before counter battery fire.
        Time to get into and out of action seems to be quite quick.

    • Probably have to look at who else has sent M109’s as Ukraine have been using them to see if the are extra or the same ones. It could take a while to get crews ready, get some kind of standard to what can be used easier etc.
      What seems to more concerning is getting the kit that’s broken fixed and back into service. Some have said 30 percent of kit is in need of repair. Now that’s a very general number and goodness knows what’s getting counted in the figure, Vehicles? Tracked? Wheeled? Small arms, drones I just don’t know.

      • Norway looks to be clearing out everything they have M-109 related. They are about to ship another M-109 and 20,000 M-109 spare parts along with 10s of thousands of items of winter clothing, medical kits and field radios.

        As to your comment on what needs repairing it seems to be mainly artillery systems. Re the Pzh2000 this is one comment “artillery systems supplied by Germany are in need of repair due to intensive use on the front in eastern Ukraine. According to German army sources, the Ukrainians are currently firing around 300 shells a day, which is severely wearing down the weapon systems. (Der Spiegel 47/2022). If Russian artillery is forcing the UA to use their longer range then that will be imposing maximum strain/wear on barrels/chassis.

        It is possible that items needing repair will have to be shipped back to properly equipped repair facilities in NATO, an increasingly difficult problem as evidenced by “The railway in Krivoy Rog will not work for a long time, – head of the Krivoy Rog military administration Yevgeny Sitnichenko.” ttps://t.me/Slavyangrad/22563 This outage is critical as Kivroy Rog is the rail hub in Central Ukraine for east bound traffic to both Zaproizhe and Diepr, from which cargoes go to and from the front.

      • Norway definitely has.
        The Italians apparently will be sending some M109L in due course (these are M109 fitted with the gun from FH-70) and Austrians a small number (which will be ex-British Army guns)
        But so far in Ukraine only the Norwegian guns have been seen and they got into action really quick.

        I think the MoD has announced the M109 a few times yet but there has definitely been a hold up, the guns were advertised as ready to go…

    • There’s been reports in the UK news about the Belgian Green Party causing problems, refusing to ok the sale of equipment used in nuclear reprocessing and the UK threatening to respond by halting a large purchase of Belgian weapons.

    • The Ukrainians need more 155mm guns because they are wearing out the barrels so fast. I read that some M777s are already out of action and on their way to Poland where they will receive new barrels.

      • Can a seaking lift a M777? I think I’ve seen it lifting a M109 in the past. Could be a faster way to get the guns to Poland border and back to near the front.

        • No real point. You could load it on a truck and have it in Poland within 24 hrs. Same with any guns that cross into Poland. They could be back in the UK within 24hrs just by using a truck. For the US, obviously, it makes sense to have a repair site there but not for the UK.

    • The 17 pounder probably the best anti tank gun of the war despite all the hype over the 88s. The few that were available in North Africa when used as such guns were supposed to be used decimated Axis tanks especially at the first battle of Alamein but they get little fanfare despite German Panzers never being able to dominate in numbers or invulnerability again thereafter.

        • The standard APCR was very accurate. However, the APDS that could smash through the frontal armour of the Panther, was not! This was probably down to the interaction between the sabot and muzzle brake. gun was still rifled not a smoothbore. So, the spinning sabot round would wobble if it glanced off the muzzle brake, thereby affecting its accuracy. Don’t forget that up to 500 yards, it was accurate enough, over that it started drifting off quite a bit. Towards the end of the war Canada had developed a new APDS round for the 17 pounder, which solved a lot of the accuracy issues and was good to 1000 yards. Then along came the WOMBAT recoilless rifle. That was supposedly just as effective when firing HEAR shells, but could be moved about and fired by a three-man team.

      • Huh…interesting info that only appears to surface eighty years after the fact. Always believed it was B. L. Montgomery’s tank corps that won the day. 🤔😳

  5. Brimstone, CAMM, Meteor, Marlet, NLAW (under licence)….Britain is pretty good at complex munitions and it seems to be a growing area of sucessful exports.

    It’s extemely valuable for NATO to be able to collect data on a plethora of systmes and munitions in action again a (apparently!) top tier threat!

    • Top tier threat. Maybe up to 1991. We see the completely different way nato and Russian forces work. Nato values the personnel very highly, Russia doesn’t.
      When we look at most countries that have run their militaries under a Soviet/Russian style they have given up and turned to a nato/western system. I can’t think of a single country that has changed the other way.

      • Probaby not a peer advserary in terms of quality since the late 70’s.

        Still very useful for NATO to see it’s capabilities demonstrated in a large-scale and high intensity conflict instead of the counter-insurgency and other limtied operations we’ve seen in the last 20 years.

        • The question is whether there is such thing as a peer opponent to the west/nato. After all most of Chinese gear has been taken and modified from Russia, with parts stolen from the west. They also have also very minimal combat experience, which means their training isn’t based on actual experience from senior soldiers downwards. Tactics will be all acedemic and not based on experiences. A good army relies heavily on having combat experience within its nco’s, to avoid panic from fog of war.

      • Next year will be interesting with the conflict. Russia is rebuilding it’s equipment and there is talk/pictures of modifications to tanks etc to improve them. I also watched a YouTube vid talking about the possibility that Russia could be holding back units to focus on training, so to fix that problem.

        The question is whether any of that is true and Russia might learn lessons and turn things around in the spring (they have a history of doing that) or if the spring will just bring more losses for Russia. I’m guessing the later, it doesn’t look like there is a way that Ukraine doesn’t ultimately win this war, thanks to endless supplies from the west, at this point but go back a couple of months ago and Russia was on the big advances, so who knows.

        • It says it all when those ‘modifications’ to tanks are 800 T62s over a three year period! Until the Orcs can move away from railways they are always going to be on the back foot logistics wise.

          • Too much fake news/information warfare going on by both sides (notice the lack of drone footage recently by Ukraine, rumours are the Russian forces have sorted their air defences, but again who knows) to really know the truth, but there are videos of t72s being rebuilt, who knows if that was staged or not or how many they are working on though.

          • I just watched drone footage today. Some from bachmut and other places. Brining death from above. Quite horrific.

          • The 800 T-62’s was misreported.

            It’s doubtful that they have 800 T-62 left (they’ve used some in Kherson but also been sending them to Syria to replace SAA losses for years now).

            The actual announcement was 800 ‘tanks’ but when the Russian Duma representative said it he was in front of a T-62 at a tank repair plant so some people assumed he meant T-62, but was in fact referring to tanks generally, including T-72 and T-80.

          • I suspect there is a bit of wishful thinking on numbers, but a lot depends on what they meant by what the upgrades consist of….if its a basic upgrade of armour, and a general refurb they could probably manage it. They have more tank repair facilities than most people know. Only 1 big tank manufacturing site now though..

          • Iran drones have huge amount of western chips and they have been under sanction for decades. Russia won’t have problem getting hold of what they need.

      • Yes very true I hadn’t realised India had completely moved away from Russian military methods since the 90s adopting NATOesque tactical doctrines despite almost exclusively buying their weapons.

        • India seem to have little to no reliability as a partner. They swing between being supportive of the West to being completely in the pocket of Russia and China. Wouldnt trust India.

          • I would not trust them either nor do I think they have anything useful to add. Their forces are very outdated and they have never conducted a major operation outside of their territory. They have always been non aligned in international policy. It’s pretty clear they hate the uk though so we should limit our interactions with them. With modi at the helm they may become some Hindu “super state” off to genocide Muslims.

            We need to avoid all the issues we have had with china. It’s bad enough having one super power on the planet. We don’t need more. We should start limiting tech exports and student transfers now.

  7. Don’t want spoil the party but why are we broadcasting “shopping lists” of all our deliveries Ukraine? Especially with offensive type weapons. Seriously, not really smart IMHO. Let the Russian’s find out on the battlefronts! Ukraine 🇺🇦 needs all advantages it can get to push the Ruskies back into the Asov sea. Brimstone 2 range is a bit on the short side. If it’s really Brimstone 3 in disguise well we can use “misinformation” too. 😏

    • The government needs a smoke screen/distraction for everything that is going wrong right now. Boris did the same, talk about collapsing NHS/cost of living crisis/recession/empty supermarkets/etc and he would reply talking about Ukraine, sunak seems to be doing the same, it’s the government’s safe place. Which is great news for Ukraine.

      • This info came out in mid-October in a BFBS creative video on YT that got few views.

        The only reason the MoD s highlighting it now is because some big Twitter accounts noticed a month later and broadcast it. It was picked up on specialist forums like Secret Projects in October…

    • All the countries supplying Ukraine are publicising most of what they are supplying, some not in much detail like Belgium “10 underwater drones” or Germany “10 anti drone sensors”. This must be PR to show how they are supporting Ukraine.

      • Ah John… the Russian advance from Kherson to Odesa that you were so triumphantly predicting, how’s that going?

        While I have your attention, do you have any condemnation yet for Russia’s unprovoked attack on a neighbour and all the war-crimes committed by its undisciplined rabble army?

        • In that last respect there was some embarrassing debating on Russian tv about the hypocrisy involved in their invasion of Ukraine based on their previous arguments re NATO which left a few of their ‘experts’ unusually lost for words to defend.

        • Now now don’t be nasty after all in one of his previous posts he claimed the Orcs could reach the Polish border whenever they wanted too😄but to prevent losses they were biding their time!
          that’s working out well isn’t it Johnski?

          • His claims vary; the Polish border one compares favourably with his confident assertion that the Moskva was safely tied up in Sevastopol when in fact she was at the bottom of the Black Sea.

          • It’s always good to cut and paste his absolute nonsense posts, his U turns, and total ignorance of his previous assertion and claims, hoping we never noticed! Well we did, and now and for quite some time, he has been the site tame mouthpiece of the Nazis, which rather than horror, we now look on with a bored, sad amusement!

    • Not published but I believe range from ground is up to high twenties km certainly not to be sniffed at considering it’s sophisticated targeting and mobility. Brimstone 3 adds a bit more range (again not stated) but I believe it’s advancements lie mostly elsewhere and to a degree in standardising various ongoing improvements made with 2 over the last decade and certainly increasing its safety in use. Certainly less of an advancement than that of version 2 over the original. I suspect this missile will be a terror to the Russians now that the Ukrainians will have become experts in its use.

      • Given presumed frontline introduction of Brimstone 3, does this make existing stocks of Brimstone 2 surplus, and thus eligible for donation/transfer? Could envision Ukrainians lobbying for Vanguard class, once Dreadnought class obtains FOC. 🤔😁

        • Brimstone 1 have around 5-10 years left in stockpile and RAF would be happy to replace with Brimstone 3B if given the choice given the extra range and dual mode nature of the new variant.

          There should be a fair few hundred Brimstone 1 left in stockpile.

          Brimstone 2 entered production in 2016 and is very much the main version in service…..most in stockpile will have 20 years left of shelf life so I expect the RAF won’t want too many to go…that is unless the Treasury guarantees replacement of all of them.

          • If there are indeed hundreds of Brimstone 1 residing in storage, why wouldn’t RAF prioritize their donation? UKR becoming too discriminating in terms of acceptance of munitions? 🤔

  8. Personally l wish Ukraine would make cheap iranian style drones and use them to attack the Russisn electricity grid, refineries and so forth This view wont be popular on here but the war needs to be brought home to Russia more and at moment using expensive western missiles go counter cheap russian junk is just uneconomical long term.

    • It’s on the way!

      October 17, 2022

      Ukraine is Developing a Long-Range Kamikaze Drone, the Work is Almost Complete
      “The range is 1000 km. Warhead weight is 75 kg

      https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/ukraine_is_developing_a_long_range_kamikaze_drone_the_work_is_almost_complete-4564.html

      17 OCTOBER 2022
      Ukraine conflict: Kyiv teases new long-range response to Russian ‘suicide drone’ attacks
      https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/ukraine-conflict-kyiv-teases-new-long-range-response-to-russian-suicide-drone-attacks

        • I think it will be a game-changer over the winter months to hit supply lines fuel depots etc and maybe one or two ships if they get lucky.

          Fingers crossed eh!

          • Just came across this.

            US considers sending 100-mile strike weapon to Ukraine

            “The Pentagon is considering a proposal from Boeing on supplying Ukraine with cheap, small precision bombs fitted onto abundantly available rockets.

            This will allow Kyiv to strike far behind Russian lines as the West struggles to meet the demand for more arms.
            Ukraine is in desperate need of more sophisticated weapons as the war drags on and US and allied military inventories are shrinking.

            Boeing’s proposed system, Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb (GLSDB), is one of about a half-dozen plans for getting new munitions into production for Ukraine and America’s Eastern European allies, according to industry sources.

            GLSDB could be delivered as early as spring 2023, according to a document reviewed by the Reuters news agency and three people familiar with the plan. It combines the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) with the M26 rocket motor, both of which are common in US inventories.”

          • Wow, I don’t not know about this. An awesome new capability. I was really hoping for something similar with SPEAR. Can really open up the potential for SEAD missions using ground forces.

          • I’m hoping we will invest in some of these in the near future for the Army on a platform like this.

            The Ground Launched Small Diameter Bomb combines GMLRS and the Boeing SDB.

            90km range of the GMLRS is then extended by the SDB’s 60km range.

            With SPEAR 3, range is greater, so that would be 90km plus at least, another 100km. SPEAR Cap 3 is described as a 100km weapon but indications are that 140km is achievable

            https://thinkdefence.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/ground-and-sea-launched-spear-3/.

          • I’ve seen reports that Ukraine might be about to get the GLSDB in time for deployment in the spring… appears it can be launched from the HIMARS and ML270 which they have, and there is a shipping containerised launch system option too.

          • And some poster on this site stated that American military-industrial complex couldn’t compete w/ slimeball ChiComs! Just wave some cash in front of our contractors, then stand back. 🤣😂😁

    • I think it’s being brought home to the Russian population by a combination of the phone calls home from Russian conscripts and the increasing numbers of mothers whose sons are now KIA.
      Attacking Russia would simply allow the Kremlin to dial up the rhetoric to the Russian public about the threat Ukraine poses.
      Quite frankly I’m surprised Putin hasn’t ordered some false flag attacks to drum up domestic fear/support. When he was Prime Minister, Putin had the FSB stage the apartment building bombings to justify the second Chechen War to the public. It was also his springboard to the presidency.

      • We know Russia is the aggressor here and they’re getting their just desserts for their disgusting aggression but I think you’ve also got to feel a bit for all the everyday ordinary Russian families that have had to follow their government’s orders and have lost a lot of their men. The Russian leadership has no morals here and have lots of blood from both sides on their hands and minds. None of them seem to have ever lead from the front, in a tank, plane, ship of sub. They’re all keeping cosy in their back offices somewhere. Hope Ukraine can push these evil buggers out of their territory sooner than later.

      • I understand your view. But Russia may just soak up the losses. Its not a democracy after all. Whose to say that Putin will fall. We hope he does but hope is not always enough. Even if Russian lost all its occupied territory in Ukraine it might not end the war if Russia persists then what??

        No. Attacking Russia directly is whats needed. Increased pain for Russia means a chance of negotiations.

        • Sort of akin to the Black Knight scene in ‘Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail,’ you know, after he loses both arms and both legs? 🤣😂😁

          • Thanks, was hoping someone picked up on comment, thought surely someone would mention development of the ‘Holy Hand Grenade.’ The only movie I ever attended wherein I literally rolled out of my seat while laughing–my date was embarrassed. Quintessential British humor; my vote for greatest comedy of all time!

          • That’s what we need to start issuing to Ukrainian infantry, the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch! 😆

            I must admit I find most comedy movies these days are aimed at the lowest common denominator 🤦🏻‍♂️ But the Monty’s have certainly stood up to the test of time, which shows how the humour was both very simple and yet very clever both at the same time.

          • Life of Brian Former, you have to watch it (I’m sure you already have) hilarious and totally “stoopid” 😂

          • Just may have to do some binge watching soon, only recall portions of these flicks (haven’t seen them since theatrical release). World may be going to hell, but there is always time for a beer and a good laugh! 🍺😂

          • You don’t get that humour and level of belly laughing comedy any more!!! Also, the greatest crazy film ever made, Life of Brian, bigus dickus 😂👍

          • Apologies to those keeping score, actual title is “Monty Python and the Holy Grail.” Memory fails…🙄

        • It’s a tough call. Attacking Russia would make full mobilisation more acceptable to the Russian population. Most times attacking civilian infrastructure only strengthens the population determination to fight.
          I see it if Russia keeps losing lots of life in Ukraine the population of Russia will be feeling what’s the point. Why are my family members dying. We can’t win this war. Although Russia is run by a strong man he has always had support of the majority of Russians. Now would the russian government go full on crackdown on the majority of the population. Would the police obey shoot to kill at massive protests? I’m hopeful most Russians have been finding out how much nonsense the government has fed them for years and has had enough.

        • I think Tsar Nicholas II thought the same…

          There’s been very few attacks by Ukraine in Russia proper (I’m not counting Crimea, that’s Ukrainian). It’s clearly a deliberate strategic policy set by Kyiv not to strike Russia even though they could. It’s possible NATO has advised strongly against it, as Putin may view it as an escalation – especially if NATO supplied weapons were used. Strikes by Ukraine on logistics hubs across the border in Russia might see Russia retaliate by targeting the logistics hubs in Poland that are supplying Ukraine…

          Ukraine has plenty of high-value targets in occupied territory to flatten first.

      • Why order attacks when you can just make it up in the news and the Orcs lap it up. They are havelardy gone through all the chemical and nuclear lands they “found” in Ukraine.

    • I tend to agree. Although I think NATO is pulling the strings. Promising Ukraine supplies in vast quantities on the agreement that Ukraine doesnt widden the war or give Putin any excuse to carry out a WMD attack.
      Could the Ukranian military attack targets inside Russia? Obviously easily yes. Would it benefit their stated war aims of liberating their sovereign territory? Probably not, although it is justified.

  9. Is this a sign that we’ve cleared our very oldest stocks and are now moving onto the next, while we upgrade to Brimstone 3? Or am I being too hopeful?

    • Its doubtful we’ve used all the Brimstone 1. There were around 1,00 0 in stock at the start of the war.

      Suspect Brimstone 2 has been sent as a need has been identified for laser guidance/man in the loop. There are none of the original Dual Mode Brimstone left (these were the conversion of c1,000 Brimstone 1 to DMB standard) as they’ve all been expended in ops and testing.

  10. The UK really has gone all in to support Ukraine. Maybe we have finally learnt the lesson of history not to allow an aggressor to build up a head of steam via succesful invasions and labd grabs until we are eventually pulled into conflict.
    The UKs support is morally, ethically, politically and tactically correct. However I am worried our stocks of war fighting materials are being significantly downgraded in the process. Brimstone is not a 2nd tier or reserve weapon. It is a cutting edge first tier system and its deployment like that of tracked MLRS represents a change in the level of support.
    Would be good to hear from HMG that all donated systems are being replaced and funded. Possibly from budget for international aid?

    • I share your concerns Mr Bell.

      I happened to look at the UK military equipment stocks list on .gov.uk website a few weeks ago. Many of the weapon systems for the army have been static for a good few years until this year. A notable example was that the MLRS numbers were down by 3, the number we sent to Ukraine.

      I fully support what we are doing to help Ukraine but I am concerned the HMG is being a bit slow to replace kit sent to Ukraine. OK MLRS may need to be replaced with HIMARS as I think the US has stopped production of MLRS in favour of HIMARS. So we have probably supplied such a small number of systems as that was all we could spare without compromising our own standing forces capabilities.

      If we wanted to supply more then we would need to a) cut our own capability, b) introduce HIMARS and have a mixed vehicle capability (the rockets are common to both as we upgraded our MLRS, I believe), or c) switch entirely to HIMARS.

      Given our financial situation my guess is none of the above so no more MLRS from the UK stock.

      If I remember rightly stocks of other things were down as well. NLAW and I think Brimstone. In the case of NLAW it was reported by other posters on here that the factory in Belfast where the weapon is built was recruiting additional staff. However, it will take time to train people to work safely on the production line in an armaments factory so I don’t expect to see our stocks recover for sometime as much of the new production might well be just enough to allow us to continue to supply the Ukrainians as I bet they have been using them as fast as we can supply them!

      Also, I remember seeing an off the record quote from a Rheinmetall executive early in the conflict that the West (especially Europe) did not have the capacity to resupply Ukraine with new build equipment and ammunition let alone NATO forces in an all out conflict with Russia… Me thinks a lot of people are rushing around with their hair on fire trying to patch things up in our overly lean supply chain, not helped by the current economic situation.

      The Ukraine War has highlighted weaknesses in the Russian military and its supply chain, but whilst it has highlighted the West’s technological advantage over Russia it appears to have also indicated weaknesses in the supply chain – lean supply chains are not robust if they cannot a) rapidly respond to a sudden and dramatic increase in demand (they can’t by definition, there is no spare capacity that’s what lean really means), b) maintain or recover production in the face of hostile action e.g. someone blowing stuff up (killing and injuring the few well trained engineering staff we do have). Again lean means no spare capacity, especially in trained people. Remember all that off shoring..!

      Happy thoughts.

      Cheers CR

      • Actually, if politicians are intelligent enough to recognize the issue and not venal enough to ignore it, this proxy war may prove to have a silver lining. Perhaps NATO and armaments manufacturers have been given a grace period to rearm. Imagine the SitRep if Mad Vlad had attacked UKR and slimeball ChiComs had attacked Taiwan simultaneously? 🤔😳😱

        • That scenario highlights a real issue in todays world.

          European NATO is obviously focussed on the threat from Mad Vlad, especially former Warsaw Pact countries and who can blame them. However, the US understandably has to consider the threats in the east. With the ChiComs and of course the lunatic in North Korea.

          If it came to it with Mad Vlad I think European NATO could handle the situation without a huge additional deployment from the US given the poor showing of the Russian Army in UKR, at least in the short term. The one surprise the Russians might be able to pull in such a scenario is the off-shore and underwater infrastructure that Europe, including the UK, have been building since the early 1970’s if you include the oil and gas installations that are still in the North Sea.

          The Far Eastern scenario is entirely more difficult to form a view. The Chinese have been modernising their armed forces considerably and the effort they have put into their navy, for example, is impressive especially given the timescales.

          However, big ships with lots of VLS etc might look impressive but it is clearly not the whole story when it comes to understanding capability. Firstly, much of the equipment for all three services is based on Russian technology enhanced with tech swiped from Western sources. So just how good is it?

          Another consideration is that China hasn’t really had any major combat experience since it invaded Vietnam in 1979 and that was primarily fought by ground forces (the Air Force and Navy stayed out of it apparenly to keep the Soviets from getting involved…).

          So I would hope that the West takes the threat seriously and starts to rearm because the Russians will most likely try to learn the hard lessons they are on the recieving end of at the moment and do something about it. China will also be taking note without a doubt.

          Here in the UK Rishi Sunak has pegged defence spending to 2% of GDP until the economic crisis is sorted – so no time soon will we be expanding our capabilities beyond what is already planned. I recon that is in part because the Russians have performed so poorly.

          So in summary I think the jury is out on the politicians. For them it is all about who backs them in the elections so after a lifetime of watching our lot I have very little faith in any of them. I only vote because my Granddad fought on the Somme in 1916. I knew him as a young child and he was a grumpy old sod. Found out years later he had a metal plate in his head… So I vote not in any hope of real change but out of respect for alll those nameless people who fought at home and abroad so that we could vote. Don’t say much for the politicians does it.!?

          Never mind soon be Christmas 🙂

          Cheers CR

          • Believe your characterization is essentially correct. Several methods of learning, including by observation and example, and trial and error. Unfortunately, if the West opts for trial and error learning, there will be a very significant cost extracted in blood and treasure. Virtually inevitable, die already cast. 🤔😳☹️😱

    • My take on this is that in reality, we only purchased this equipment to defeat one enemy and it’s being used precisely to do just that. We’ve just outsourced the trigger pullers.

  12. I saw it reported a while ago that the L119 105mm guns donated by the UK to Ukraine were originally ex Australian Army guns.

    Australia retired and mothballed them back in 2014, then 92 were sold back to BAE in 2018.

    • That is correct. British designed guns, licence built in Australia, retired by the Australian Army, bought by a British Defence Company, sold on to the British Government for onward supply to Ukraine, with dial sights provided by New Zealand, gunners trained by the UK and NZ…firing ammo provided by the US…

      The UK did operate L119 as well for training purposes, purely until we exhausted our stockpile of US 105mm ammo. These were all withdrawn in 2015 and replaced old 25pdr as saluting guns at Edinburgh Castle, Gibraltar, Cardiff Castle etc. The guns firing the salutes for QEII around the UK were the old L119 firing blanks. UK Military is now pure L118 Light Gun.

  13. News today of the relaunch of a 2015 project, a potential new 150km missile for MLRS systems. Very flexible especially if the SDB II is used,

    “”WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Pentagon is considering a Boeing proposal to supply Ukraine with cheap, small precision bombs fitted onto abundantly available rockets, allowing Kyiv to strike far behind Russian lines as the West struggles to meet demand for more arms.
    U.S. and allied military inventories are shrinking, and Ukraine faces an increasing need for more sophisticated weapons as the war drags on. Boeing’s proposed system, dubbed Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb (GLSDB), is one of about a half-dozen plans for getting new munitions into production for Ukraine and America’s Eastern European allies, industry sources said.
    GLSDB could be delivered as early as spring 2023, according to a document reviewed by Reuters and three people familiar with the plan. It combines the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) with the M26 rocket motor, both of which are common in U.S. inventories.”

    From Wiki “The original SDB is equipped with a GPS-aided inertial navigation system to attack fixed/stationary targets such as fuel depots, bunkers, etc. The second variant (Raytheon’s GBU-53/B SDB II) will include a thermal seeker and radar with automatic target recognition features for striking mobile targets such as tanks, vehicles, and mobile command posts”

  14. For me, the elephant in the room is what happens when the Ukrainians take back the Crimea and liberate all their territory.
    Does the fighting stop? Will the Russians say “ok geezer, fair cop”, we will leave you alone now? At the moment it is all one way, Russians destroying infrastructure and so on.
    The biggy would be kicking out the Russians and then immediately joining NATO…as soon as…or the Russians might just simply destroy more infrastructure using long range weaponry and try again. How could you stop the Ruskies trying again otherwise?
    AA

      • This is exactly what I mentioned earlier. And why at least some targetted attacks on Russian infrasfructure wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. If Putin is still in power (if – but historically despots tend to survive in Russia ) then how ti bting Russia to heel is a good question.

        • As distasteful as it may be, the slaughter of Russian troops over the winter using Ukrainian troops adequately equipped with arctic warfare gear and well supplied may be the thing. Ramping up the body count means ramping up the political pressure domestically from the oppressed population.
          Along with all this slaughter goes the capture of vast amounts of gear, irreplaceable for years. Could it be that an onslaught in the dead of winter might collapse Russian front?
          THEN join NATO!
          AA

          • You might be right, but you also have ask what will Mad Vlad do to survive?

            If Russia looks like it is going to suffer a humiliation and its troops are poorly equipped, trained and supported on the battlefield then you have to consider the spectre of 1917, with the added complexity of nuclear weapons some of them (in)conviently mounted on b****y big trucks!

            I bet that is keeping some senior analysists in the west awake at nights!

            Cheers CR

  15. This is amazing. It takes gazzillions of $ and aeons of time to fit these on our F35Bs; Yet the the ingeneous Ukrainians can fit them on trucks! We are being taken for fools let’s face it. Maybe the RAF should buy some trucks!

  16. luckily you are here to help. our state is ridiculous in words all good but they made 5 expeditions ridiculous apart from the last one with 39 tanks

  17. Jane’s defence website is reporting that the treasury has stated the additional A300M order for 8 aircraft worth £768 million is now not going ahead and will be cancelled. Citing unaffordability. Where does that leave UK strategic airlift? I’d hazard a guess that the 22 A300M ordered/ delivered so far are going to be very heavily used.
    MOD response is they are looking into alternatives. Maybe new order of Hercules aircraft or more C17’s?

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