British jets will form part of the largest air group of 5th generation fighters ever put to sea alongside jets from the U.S. Marine Corps as they embark on HMS Queen Elizabeth.

The ship and her aircraft will sail as part of the Carrier Strike Group 21 (CSG21) deployment, the maiden operational deployment of the aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth.

CSG 21 will see the aircraft carrier and her supporting ships travel over 26,000 nautical miles from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea, from the Gulf of Aden to the Arabian Sea, and from the Indian Ocean to the Philippine Sea.

You can read more about the deployment by visiting the link below.

Largest concentration of UK seapower in a generation to sail

The RAF say on their website that logistics planning for the deployment have been underway at RAF Marham for the past six months.

“The variety of equipment is vast, from a washer to an engine, and all have their own issues” said the Warrant Officer from the Logistics Support Squadron.

“For example, an F-35 engine requires a crane and the right team needs to ensure its prepped ready to be lifted. It’s also important to ensure equipment being delivered to us is checked for Dangerous Goods and the policy is being adhered to with its movement. The team ensure that everything has been delivered by checking it and the paperwork properly to avoid the kit being rejected and not making the flight, or in this case the ship.”

Officer Commanding 617 Squadron Mission Support Flight was quoted as saying:

“We have to ensure our pilots have everything they require to be ready to meet any mission they may be tasked with. Each and every deployed member, whether RAF, Royal Navy or civilian contractor, enables that mission to be successful. The atmosphere on the squadron is somewhat hectic but there is undoubtedly a very excited buzz.”

You can read more from the RAF on this here.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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72 COMMENTS

  1. Will the UK F35s be getting the 25mm cannons that I imagine the US F35s will have? Could be useful once all the missiles have been shot off and bombs dropped.

    • No. The USMC F35B has a separate pod that needs to be installed for the canon, which rather negates the stealth characteristics of the aircraft. It has been stated before that we do not intend on ordering the pod.

    • Also isn’t CAS the primary mission of the USMC aircraft? Surely much more need of a cannon as opposed to the Air to Air/Strike mission of the British jets.

    • In the end if there is a sudden emergency need for the cannon pod then it is a pretty short UOR away so I am not losing much sleep over it really.

        • The F35 is most capable of BVR engagements, due to its systems and missiles, and able to do VR also, very well, so no worries there.

      • It exceeeds the ability of the F16 and F18 in that arena, the former being the (subsonic) standard for Typhoon to exceed.

        So I think it’s ok.

    • Not worth compromising their stealth characteristics for per se, so I don’t think we need them for A-2-A activity in the early days of a peer conflict, but Sea Harriers armed with Aden cannons did significant damage to Argentine naval forces in 1982. The Narwal, Rio Igauzu and Bahía Buen Suceso were all put out of action by 30mm.

      All were lightly armed transport or intelligence gathering ships. China has a fleet of them disguised as trawlers/fishing vessels, Russia’s surface fleet is predominately littoral and small, and Iran has form for using fast boats to attack vessels outside of the transit time for heli-assets.

      So yes, some form of bolt-on cannon would be useful, but I can only see them being used for certain taskings where stealth wasn’t needed and therefore probably not high on the list of things that need developing for the F35!

    • As most below have said we’re not getting the gun pod at present. Though may change in the future.

      The gun pod is fully radar stealth compliant. It has been built to minimize any additional RCS. Lockheed Martin have done a lot of advertising and PR about a little the gun pod adds to the aircrafts RCS.

  2. Are the USMC weapons interchangeable with the UK and vice versa? Stealthy or not a cannon could still very useful but yes it is a bit clunky looking.

        • Either way, it must have been a brown trouser moment for the pilot!
          Fortunately, both the plane and the pilot returned safely. If the plane had crashed determining the problem would have been a nightmare.

    • Our Harrier GR9’s never had a cannon, but the Sea Harrier FA2 did. And it was a right pain in the arse to maintain, with weapons hangups (misfires or jams) pretty common when fired during training, which didn’t take place very often.

      • Robert. I know in the 60’s they thought we were in the missile age and got rid of guns only to realise later (Vietnam War) that they were needed but we have moved on. If an enemy aircraft gets close enough to an F35 to enter into a gun dog fight then all sorts of things have gone wrong. The F35 should see the enemy threat and shoot it down beyond visual range. Also, even for ground support, Paveway and Brimstone has got to be better than a low level strafing run.

        • Hi Rob. The Tornado GR4 used it’s cannon to great affect in Afghan if a show of force didn’t do the trick. but that’s about it. If a F35 or F22/Typhoon is resorting to guns in air to air, the pilot is having a very bad day. Aircrew don’t want to get into a visual turning fight, even if you have bags of performance. It’s very dangerous. You want to shoot the bad guy from 30+ miles away before he even knows he is being tracked, something the F35 will excel at. ASRAAM and a HMS also tips the odds in the F35 and Typhoons favour if things do get close. Any aircraft that carry’s ASRAAM is a feared apponent once you are with it’s 15m kill zone. If your AMRAAM shots have been defeated, ASRAAM automatically starts tracking the target from either radar info or it’s own seeker head, and provides the pilot with target symbols in his sight when still at BVR range. Once it’s in the air, it has a very high probability of kill ratio, and has some very nasty fuse settings, so it goes bag close to the cockpit to kill the pilot. It can lock on at very high offborsight angles even without a helmet mounted sight. And transformed the WVR capabilitys of not particularly agile aircraft like the Tornado F3. Deadly. 👍

          • So why compromise the stealth features by putting in a gun pod that if needed would be brown trousers time?

            Don’t need the gun pod.

          • For CAS they can still be very useful. And if you are shooting at bad guys in the desert, stealth probably isn’t the priority.

        • No, not all the time. As a JTAC, I was using an aircraft’s gun strafe as much as directed ordinance. A lot of the time when the Taliban saw the aircraft lining up for an attack, they would usually end the contact and bug out smartish. The majority quickly learned it was not a good idea to be on the receiving end of an A10’s gun run, even when hiding behind mud brick walls!

          From my experience a gun strafe can be just as effective as a Brimstone. It mostly depended on the circumstances that I needed to coordinate a target strike, i.e. wadi strike or compound.

  3. Can the we sacrifice premium stealth for cheaper maintenance on the F-35? Is there a coating or paint or something we could simply not apply and use a more rugged alternative lacking the superior stealth characteristics? Or do the operational costs lay some where else?

    • The stealth coating on the F35 is much easier to maintain compared to the F22. They can open any panel without comprising the RAM coatings.

    • I’m not sure if anything has changed since then?

      April 24, 2020

      “This issue was closed on December 17, 2019 with no further actions and concurrence from the U.S. services,” the F-35 JPO statement read. “The [deficiency report] was closed under the category of ‘no plan to correct,’ which is used by the F-35 team when the operator value provided by a complete fix does not justify the estimated cost of that fix.

      “In this case, the solution would require a lengthy development and flight testing of a material coating that can tolerate the flight environment for unlimited time while satisfying the weight and other requirements of a control surface. Instead, the issue is being addressed procedurally by imposing a time limit on high-speed flight.”

      The carrier-launched “C” variant and the short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing “B” version will both be able to carry out all their missions without correcting the deficiency, the JPO said.

      The potential damage from sustained high speeds would influence not only the F-35’s airframe and the low-observable coating that keeps it stealthy, but also the myriad antennas located on the back of the plane that are currently vulnerable to damage, according to documents exclusively obtained by Defense News.

      https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/04/24/the-pentagon-will-have-to-live-with-limits-on-f-35s-supersonic-flights/

      • Another point I should have mentioned is Digital Stealth. Radar 2, Thermal Targeting Pirate (IRST), will play a major role going forward.

        I’ve heard from a trusted source that by the mid-’20s the landscape will have changed somewhat in this area, so let’s wait and see.

        This article seems to support what he was indicating in terms of the timeframe!

        https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2020-09-14/britains-long-awaited-radar-two-program-breaks-cover

        • It’s funny that the two partners Nations within Eurofighter that operate F35s have chosen a more advanced radar. Whereas those who don’t have gone for a much lesser variant.

          • Project Bablefish if I remember correctly was the pairing of a F35 and Typhoon. Where the Typhoon could receive some information from the F35 via its link-16 data-link. Having a much smaller bandwidth than the F35’s MADL only compressed data could be sent.
            However, the pilots/engineers would have reported back what the APG-81 was doing as they were learning how to use it. I’m certain this has heavily influenced the decision to wait for Radar2 rather than going for the updated Captor-M with a new front end.

          • More than likely, I’m not sure if you’ve had time to read the article above, but it appears that an update for the EJ200 engine might also be on the cards?

            Also quoted in the article:

            “Flynn said there were more than 50 separate candidate technologies being considered by the evolution review. Some of those potential upgrades could also find themselves cross decking to the Tempest sixth-generation fighter now being proposed by the British.

            Clive Marrison, the industrial requirements director for Team Tempest, the industrial/government partnership leading the next-generation fighter work, said both jets could benefit from close development ties.

            “Typhoon could benefit from some of the technologies that Tempest is looking at and by the same token Tempest could benefit from some of the technologies that Typhoon is investing in,” said Marrison.”

          • I know the Praetorian DAS is getting updated and has been penciled in to be rolled out by 2035. I had heard rumours of PIRATE also being updated as well, but hadn’t heard if this had been paid for to be included in the next modification program. PIRATE is now quite old and infra-red optical technology has moved on. It’s a key sensor for Typhoon so must be high on the priority wish list?

            The EJ200 hasn’t really been touched since the proposal for the TAL project. Wiki has a paragraph on a stage 2 update. Where they are saying the engine will be have a 30% thrust improvement, so pumping up dry thrust to 78kN (17,000lbf) and in reheat to 120kn (27,000 lbf). They haven’t said how they will do this? But is likely through a new LP and HP turbine section and perhaps with a redesigned combustion chamber.

            The Germans are starting to call their new order of Typhoons Tranche 4. So I wonder what extras they will be including? As I know they were keen on the Airbus aerodynamic improvement package.

          • Very useful to know, thank you. We should be throwing some of our weight behind Typhoon and increasing our orders as well. A combination of this and Tempest will give the RAF some real teeth in the decades ahead.

            The RAF will have a very good idea of the added performance by adding LERX as they were included in the original flight tests back in 2015.

            This is not the sort of modification that would cost us an arm and a leg I would have thought against the benefits it has to offer us?

            “The addition of strakes and LERX gives the Typhoon a higher turn rate, a tighter turning radius and better control characteristics at lower speed, all significantly contributing to the fighter’s air-to-air combat capabilities.

            “Typhoon’s angle of attack (AoA) was 45% greater, with faster roll rates around 100% higher”

            Power seems to be heading in the right direction.

            The Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 engine delivers thrust in the 35,000 lbf (156 kN) class fitted to the F-22.

            I wonder what Reaction Engines will come up with in the near future and how we can integrate this technology into the Typhoon for added power?

    • Bugger stealth, just wrap it in a cam net, job done! Just make sure the tape is secure and its properly pegged to…er….just tape then!

  5. Maybe folk would prefer the QEC sits in Pompey until 2023 by which time she has her 2 squadrons of F35? Or until the future solid support ships are built? Or until Crowsnest is fully operational?

    This is great training for when the UK does have the initial 48 jets and more can deploy.

    I don’t care myself that there are “only” 8 UK F35, most of the group is British and very proud of it. Don’t give a monkeys there are USMC jets aboard either.

    So much negativity. Remember 2010 and how much has been achieved so far.

    • Yes and remember the US are our allies so having practised putting a USMC squadron onboard is not a bad thing even if we get to 24 jets regularly and 30+ surge of UK assets. Maybe the USMC pilots will go home and say we need carriers like these, designed for the F35B and with an inbuilt pub?

    • Good comment Daniele. Anyone holding senior rank in any navy WW knows conceptually what CSG21 signifies in terms of capability, even at this point. Especially China and Russia who will know first hand some, but probably not all, the challenges involved in such a sustained long term deployment that only come through relevant institutional experience.

      What seems to escape many is that its not about what stage it is at this year, or next, its what its already capable of and what its developing into, barely into its 50 year life. The ability to fully support the USMC throughout a deployment is unique, totally different to a temporary hosting, and would enable the number of F35s on board to be doubled or more at minimal notice in extremis. Its not a short term fix, its a long term strategic capability. We should expect the USMC to frequently be part of a deployment, even when we have our 48 aircraft or even the mooted 70-80.

      • As the USS Bonholme Richard is now being scrapped. I can see the USMC being embarked regularly for the foreseeable future, until they have a replacement LHD/LHA.

        • I suspect USMC deployments on QEC will continue even with LHD/LHA replacement along with the suggested potential reduction in F-35B buy by the USMC, as they pursue their changed role. After all the commitment was there before the USS Bonholme Richard fire. The value for the US in fully enabling the UK carriers is massive in providing flexibility for their own overworked CSG ops, frankly its a bargain for them.

    • Aye spot on 👍🏻 👏🏻 It’s a thankless task trying to highlight positivity in here but encouraging to see others point out what is excellent progress in a more eloquent manner than my usual blunt to the point tone👊🏼

      however one must take into account these wee doom n gloomy mince n tatie merchants weren’t exposed to “Swap Shop” on Saturday mornings during their formative years so alas it’s not any great shock at the negativity 🚽💩

      The U.K. is DOING what nearly everyone else can’t 👍🏻

      🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇬🇧

    • Couldn’t agree more Daniele,

      This deployment and the capability is much more than ships, aircraft and even the deploying crews. It is as much about the support teams right across the Services, MoD and the defence industrial complex. The recent article on here about the RAF logistic squadron prepping for the departure of the CSG highlighted use of the backroom effort that goes into this. Not to mention the FCDO and embasy staff across the globe working to set up port visiting etc..

      This deployment is a Joint and Combined effort. There are probably far more people across two continents working hard to make this a success than are actual deploying. That takes a huge amount of institutional knowledge and capability across our services to be able to pull this off.

      The CSG is jumping straight back into the frontline of what can be a tense geopolitical situation and is doing it with considerable and well earned confidence. I am hugely proud of this achievement and the fact that our allies think enough of us to put the effort into supporting our return to CSG operations.

      A service with 300 to 400 years of global deployment history is back in the task force business, well done to everyone involved and a big thank you to our friends in the US and French navies for supporting the RN to regenerate the capability.

      OK, that was a bit more gushy than I intended 🙂

      Cheers CR

  6. How well armed are the F-35’s out of interest? I know that all the drama over gun-pods etc is misplaced but what do they actually have available?

        • Hi. No to both. But StormShadows replacement might well be. Spear3 will be a beast of a weapon. It’s based on the Brimstone, but it’s more like a mini cruise missile with far longer range. It will also have a antiship capability, and a EW version. Typhoon can carry StormShadow.

        • Spears 3 and Meteor will be available when block 4 is finally sorted out. The current estimate for this is 2026/7 I believe, plus integration time of course.

          • Is block 4 a hardware and software upgrade or just software? Hopefully all or some of these capabilities can be brought forward a bit as don’t we need this all ability now?
            Is the F35 capable of carrying 6 or just 4 AMRAAMs internally. And with the ASRAAM, can 4-6 be carried on the wings?

    • All F35s have identical weapon handling software. So technically they all can use each other’s weapons. The issue is the pilots won’t be trained on them, so won’t be fully aware of the envelope restrictions on when they can guarantee a lock on and clean separation.

  9. News article from the American perspective about the QE deployment for any who are interested. 👍

    ps://news.usni.org/2021/04/29/blended-u-s-marine-u-k-royal-air-force-air-wing-aboard-hms-queen-elizabeth-will-be-largest-f-35-deployment-to-date

    • Thanks for the link Robert.

      Nice to read what our allies think and the differences in operation practices that it highlighted were interesting as well.

      Cheers CR

      • You’re welcome mate. The story from those involved in these deployments, is often very different from various defence news websites that concentrate on the negative. 👍

  11. For me I think our F 35s should have cannons it’s ok to say reley on stealth to keep them out of dog fight but what if the other side have stealth ,Who’s that on my 6 o’clock ?

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