Four RAF Typhoon jets have been deployed to Poland, to conduct exercises with aircraft from Spain, Poland, and Italy.
The deployment will provide an opportunity for RAF pilots to practice dogfighting against different types of aircraft, and develop tactics to exploit their weaknesses.
The Typhoons, which deployed to Poland today, will remain in Poland for two weeks and practice engaging targets beyond visual range, simulating various possible combat scenarios.
The Ministry of Defence said:
“The activity comes ahead of UK Ministers attending the Warsaw Security Forum this week. Defence Minister James Heappey and FCDO ministers Anne-Marie Trevelyan and Lord Ahmad will all use the forum to stress the need to maintain support for Ukraine and keep up the pressure on Russia.
Earlier this year, the UK and Polish foreign secretaries and defence ministers signed a strategic partnership on foreign policy, security and defence – emphasising both countries’ commitment to European security and collective defence through NATO. On Wednesday, James Heappey will visit RAF personnel deployed with the Typhoons, as well as troops deployed in eastern Poland who operate the Sky Sabre surface-to-air missile system, bolstering Poland’s air defences close to the border with Ukraine.”
The Warsaw Security Forum is focused on transatlantic cooperation in response to common challenges, first organised in 2014, bringing together ministers and senior officials from across defence to provide a forum to discuss challenges facing Central and Eastern Europe, and the wider international community.
I take it, thats the last four operational Typhoons we have left 😎
No. I work around approximately 50 of them every day.
I believe Poland are on the lookout for a new air superiority fighter and have shown a bit of interest in the Typhoon.
Slightly mad to be considering another high-end jet given how many they already have or have ordered but hey……business is business!
Well that would keep the Europeans happy too.
Germany couldn’t be seen to block that….the Italians and Spanish would be jumping all over them.
Keep the line running.
I suspect they have been given a peek at T4 with RADAR2 etc….which is more advanced than F35 in many respects without the LM software lock-in.
It would still be pretty amazing given LM’s aggressive marketing and F35’s triumph’s over Typhoon to date.
But who know’s!
I don’t know – that is for sure!
Poland has been integrating stuff together in all their recent purchases. Not being able to do that is end game for them: I’m sure of that.
LM can’t stick to timelines on anything F35 related ATM. B4 software anyone?
I don’t think it is a slam dunk. The way UK has been tested, even as a Tier 1, has not been great PR. Tempest tells a story.
First I have heard but does make some sense perhaps. F-35 for Air Defence is not really using it to its major strengths especially when airframes are few, which is in the offensive realm and if they could get Typhoons at an acceptable cost (big if) they would be a far better bet to take on that specific role, leaving the F-35s to concentrate on what they excel at and give that 4th/5th Gen mix that most major players are sensibly going for. Relying on F-35 to do everything is going to be a tough and expensive and very long… Read more »
I agree.
A mix is very much needed.
They have gifted their MiG antique collection.
F35 is an amazing leap forwards but I think Typhoon T4 leapfrogs that.
So, already, F35 looks, in some respects, a bit dated: mainly due to its crazy long gestation period.
The key with keeping anything military current is to move like lightening from concept to production.
Hopefully Tempest will show the way on this.
“But who know’s!” Indeed! “Leonardo is in the final stages of developing a revolutionary new radar for the Eurofighter Typhoon. Known as ‘Radar Two’, or more formally as ECRS Mk 2 (where ECRS is an abbreviation of European Common Radar System), it embodies advanced electronic attack (EA) and electronic warfare (EW) capabilities, and Leonardo has described it as the world’s most advanced fighter radar. It promises to enable the Typhoon to operate in even the most challenging contested environments, on its own and autonomously. This kind of environment would once have been thought the exclusive domain of stealthy, fifth-generation aircraft. With… Read more »
Still, it must be at least somewhat galling to senior RAF leadership to observe Poles (and others) simply open the checkbook and potentially order latest variant, while RAF is forced to hunt for loose change to fund critical projects. 🤔😳
RAF gave their budget and make their choices – OK which are bent out of shape by some crazy accounting rules that don’t make sense for military projects.
Not exactly. RAF Typhoons with the P4E upgrade. ECRS MK2 Radar, Striker 2 Digital Helmet Mounted Display plus many other enhancements will be the most capable Typhoons in service of any customer nation. £2.35bn’s worth. Serious cash. And F35 capability.
While fun to say, don’t kid yourself. A typhoon wouldn’t live long enough to see an F-35 in real life. Ask the RAF pilots who fly it and exist largely as target practice for the F-35’s in training. Luckily the Russians and Chinese don’t field the same capability.
To be fair, hes not kidding himself at all, Robert knows the F35s capability, he’s highlighted it many times.
Cheers pal 👍
I think what Robert was saying was the synergy between F35 and Typhoon they cover each others weakness. F35 has the low observability and can act as a sensor hub..typhoon has the ability to carrier a large load our has the sensor fusion and EW kit to allow it to hang back being a brutal BVR platform, stay out of trouble and kill what the F35 sees…a pair of Typhoons can carry 28 meteors where as a pair of F35 can only carry four ASRAAMs internally (it would not want external load out if it’s playing hide away)….that means a… Read more »
Beautifully reasoned, the bigger picture is always worth developing and it’s why at least theoretically a Typhoon against most, if not all when it’s upgraded will be as, or more effective as he argues because stealth won’t arguably be so crucial and other aspects as you say come into play with great effect and Meteor esp in large load out and combined with a top notch sensor/radar fit will on many occasions be a better fit for the job than stealth with yes equally good sensors and radar but otherwise some significant less capability.
Another way to think about it is a F35 is like a sniper. They roam about unseen, scouting out their quarry and taking out their targets from distance like a thief in the night. Whilst Typhoon is like a Challenger tank or Chally 3 when both have been upgraded. In that yes it can take targets out at distance, but they can both mix it up in close combat when needed.
The let down of the F-35 being like a sniper, is the range of AMRAAM!
Currently the F35 is cleared for the 120C-7 and is currently in the process of clearing the 120D.
Yes it’s not a bad missile, but it’s not meteor.
AMRAAM is still one of the most capable A2A weapons. Only bettered by Meteor.
Well put mate 👍
That’s it, mate. F35 can pass targting information to other 4th or 5th gen assets while remaining un seen. The bad guys might know one is in the area but could not track or engage one. 4 x AMRAAM can be carried internally or 2 x AMRAAM and 2 x Paveway 4. 8 SPEAR 3’s will be to be carried internally once that weapon enters service. 👍
Agreed.
They are complimentary.
Also the range of the NATO A2A weapons is very substantial.
I think the quality of Radar2 is being underestimated here. It is much more advanced than F35’s radar – it is two generations newer.
Yes I think what most people tend to forget is that for all intents and purposes apart from stealth typhoon is a fifth generation fighter…it’s sensor synergy, how it feed the pilot informations, sensors, EW are all fifth generation, it’s just the low observability it does not have. Now people forget that there needs to be a platform radiating to find at BVR ranges….that means low observability is only at its best when your not radiating….so essentially attacking and penetrating already active integrated air defence systems….if your trying to attack other aircraft your going to be radiating so stealth becomes… Read more »
Typhoon is lower observability than you might think just by looking at it.
It is one of the reasons that Tranche 1 isn’t really upgradable to Tranche 4 specs. Some interesting new materials emerged. It isn’t just coatings.
RCS reduction work was done by Malvern, RAE etc right from WW2. It was/is a dynamic process of mitigation.
I believe it was football sized low observation over the baseball Size of the f35.
A football made of what vs a baseball made of what – makes a difference?
As you say it is pretty stealthy IRL.
Compared to the Russian stuff that has managed, in some aspects, to have a greater RCS than the size of the plane.
Leather I suppose….after all if a balls not made of leather it’s not going to make the goalie work for the saves.But that would be very stealthy indeed so maybe they we’re comparing aluminium balls….that would hurt to kick.
I was being tongue in cheek.
The RCS chamber calibrations used to be done with a set of metal balls on a pole.
Yes but what you make a football out of is really important….not so much a baseball…as that’s not really a proper game…rounders with uniforms.
With a leather football you would probably just see the valve at most frequencies!
Now that would be a claim…..has the radar cross section of a valve in a leather-football or can detect the valve in a leather football from 200miles.
Typhoon has a pretty low frontal RCS. Mainly due to the S curve designed air intake hiding the turbine blades. Along with Radar absorbant materials and paint.
Um, not quite. The F35 still leads the way with its passive sensors. Though with the Praetorian and IRST upgrade Typhoon will get much closer. It just won’t have that all round passive visibility, that the F35’s EOTS provides. When there are two F35s flying as a paired formation. By using their covert multi-function advanced data-link (MADL), along with the EOTS and using their navigation system. They can work out a target’s range. Something that either had to be laser ranged or illuminated by radar. The IR based EOTS can be used for BVR combat. Again, this is something that… Read more »
Isn’t the Radar2 just a prototype and mostly still a concept at this stage and isn’t expected to be operational until 2030? Not sure how we can say which will be better at this point considering that the F-35 is also getting a new radar (AN/APG-85) that is at a similar stage of development. The latest reporting seem to indicate that the new AN/APG-85 was developed in complete secrecy and is actually much further along in it’s development that initially realized. I personally suspect that since this radar was developed by Northrop, it’s most likely a scaled down version of… Read more »
I think we can say that Radar2 is better than what is in F35 now.
We can also say that it is UK IP.
Further, there is a development pathway for Tempest. Which involves putting the transmit / receiver electronics on the back of the array.
Agreed. It’s endlessly frustrating knowing that the UK has the IP to have completed Radar2 years ago but somehow lack the political will to get projects like these done.
I wouldn’t say it’s two generations ahead of APG-81. But it will probably be on par with APG-85. APG-81 is an outstanding radar. The electronic attack capability of ECRS MK2 will be a real game changer for Typhoon.
There have been two massive changes in processing alone since APG-81’s conception.
Processor -> GPU(gen1) -> GPU(gen2)
That us why there is so much fuss about the tech from NVIDIA, ARM, Imagination leaking as it is all very, very dual use. The ARM and Imagination is very useful for denser packing as the phone flavours are very optimised.
Then the surface fabrication of the array itself is also moving very fast cutting out a lot of bits so a powerful array us no longer massive or heavy!
Taken together the differences are huge.
Cracking tech info mate. Thanks for that.👍 ERCS Mk2 ‘s array is on a gimble I believe for very wide scan angles.
Not quite sure if you are being tongue in cheek?
It was just meant to be a slightly vague and generalised comment as to the very high level drivers of the direction development.
The UK centric nature of 2/3 of the companies mentioned is, perhaps, significant.
No mate, wasn’t being tongue in cheek. I didn’t know about the different processors 👍
The F-35B(UK only) carry their ASRAAMs externally near the wing tip. I think you have mixed them up with AMRAAM Jonathan, which is a U.S. missile which is presently used by all F-35 that is mainly carried internally. ASRAAM is a European IR missile. Yes F-35 can carry 4 AMRAAM internally. It would be good if a splitter pylon could be developed for the bomb pylon, to give an extra AMRAAM or an ASRAAM.
The U.S version of the ASRAAM is the Sidewinder, I am not sure if U.S. F-35’s carry Sidewinders?
Yes it was a typo..my mind was typing AMRAAM…my fingers type ASRAAM.
Jon, ASRAAM is only cleared on the outer wing pylons of the F35. They are not cleared for internal carriage, as the door and bomb bay does not use the rail system for launching, which ASRAAM uses. This is why AMRAAM is fitted internally (2 per bay) as that can be fitted with launch rail hangers or ejector lugs. In regards to the increased RCS, both the pylon, launcher and missile are angled to minimise any 90 degree reflective surfaces. The pylons are supposed to be coated in radar absorbent material. Having the missile, launcher and pylon fitted under the… Read more »
Yes it was a typo…what’s an S and M amounts friends,
No worries bud. A while back, there was a rumor that the USAF wanted to try ASRAAM on the F22. But this got stopped by a number of Senators who happened to have large numbers of Raytheon donors in their constituency. They couldn’t stop it on the F35, as that was a UK requirement. The F22 and ASRAAM would have been an awesome combination.
Yes that’s very sad as the AIM-9 is a noticeably inferior weapon to the ASRAAM.
And that’s the point its capability against Russian opposition will in reality be not dissimilar to an F-35s at least in the air defence role. Stealth characteristics as things stand are far more useful in the interdiction role not that anyone is going to prefer a non stealth design all things being equal agreed. He was equally stating the case for the P4E upgrade and no Typhoon or F-35 pilot has operated in a real time scenario where that is operational nor taking into consideration whether the F-35 by that time that it is, has a fuller missile fit or… Read more »
You are correct in saying F35, especially as a BVR platform has a considerable advantage over any Typhoon. But the pair working together brings huge fire power and situational awareness to dominate any battle space.
That’s true Robert but we are still only getting 40 aircraft upgraded with new AESA radar, new cockpit, etc.,. – not the entire Typhoon fleet of 107. Phenomenal aircraft upgrade but still only 40….
It is a small number, and hopefully, in time, the Tranche 2 aircraft will receive some or all of the main upgrade package. But 30 or 40 deployable Typhoons along with 24 or more F35’s is a force that only the US could match. And those are the realistic deployable numbers. Back in the Tornado GR4 days, 30/40 was the max number from a much larger force. I believe about 32 deployable for op Telic in 2003. Numbers are smaller, but the capability and availability of today’s fleet far surpasses the force structure of 20 odd years ago.
Thought that was the RAF wish list, but not necessarily funded. Apologies to all.
Hi mate. Typhoon upgrades are fully funded. And a MOD funding line is open and funded for more tranche 2 F35B’s. Negotiations with LM are ongoing for that order. 👍
The trouble is Radar 2 has moved at such grindingly glacial pace, the fast pace of technology is rapidly eclipsing it. LM is already testing AGP85 ( bench and possibly flying testbed), a Radar a generation on from Radar 2. I’m sure Radar 2 is fantastic, but the MOD are so keen to shovel cash into so many holes in the ground, that they didn’t properly invest and roll Radar 2 out with any sense of urgency. They spent years drip feeding finance and slowing progress. At this rate, with the proposed speed of development of GCAP and it’s systems,… Read more »
Maybe…..a project like Radar2 can swallow as much cash as you throw at it….the issues, as always, is having the fully mature software to sit behind it.
If you were ever around in the ‘80s and saw the amounts spent on incrementing legacy systems you would know why I say this.
I agree, though, that fastest from idea to bench to battlefield is essential to keep the tech edge.
Totally agree SB, but I would say that drip feeding funding has seriously damaged Radar 2’s prospects on this occasion though. When it was announced recently that the system would finally get into service by 2030 and only on 34 aircraft, I was really taken back, it’s a great example of the UK’s insane procument system in all its glory, fantastic potential just watered down to a negligible effect. The reality is by 2030, it will have been technologically eclipsed by the next generation, the 15 years of grindingly slow development and fielding, just leaving it behind. It makes me… Read more »
There was me thinking 40 aircraft.
Problem with budgetary thinking, same as T45, spend the budget on R&D and reduce the front line numbers.
The lions share of the money will have been spent perfecting it and the software to drive it.
Similar money to SAMPSON I would guess.
Is it 40 SB, I stand corrected, but 6 more is in reality neither here, or there my friend….
Absolutely bloody obviously, all tranche 2 and 3 should be fully upgraded with the new radar, systems, wide angle display ete, etc and at least 30 ordered to replace tranche 1 …
A single capable fleet, all to the same standard, to fly the flag until Tempest starts to be delivered in 2035.
But no, it’s fleets within fleets again…. We can only hope the Tempest / loyal wingman pairing ends this once and for all.
In reply to John Clark. But isn’t that possibly the better thing with all developments going into Tempest? After all, it will be the platform the UK will be purchasing once it’s flying in the projected timeframe? The MOD is still claiming the demo will be flying in 2026, whether we believe that or not. Buying more F35s or Typoons wouldn’t be the best option, or would it?
It is perfectly possible for the *demonstrator* or **maybe* prototype – can’t be bothered to rerun the EAP argument of last month to be flying in three years or TBH less.
I think it is the T23 argument of degradation, fade and worn out that bother me.
Got to give it to the polish there go for top kit 👍 🇵🇱
I wonder what they intend to spend the money on.
“WASHINGTON — The Biden administration has issued a $2 billion loan to Poland to help cover costs from Warsaw’s spending spree on new weapons, the State Department announced Monday.
The money is allocated through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program, which stipulates the money has to be spent on US-made weapons. But unlike traditional FMF dollars that work as grants handed to nations to fund the purchases, this loan does come with interest that will have to be paid back to the US government.”
The mighty Typhoon, arguably the best 4th/4.5 generation jet of its type in existence.
🖕
It’s arguably the best 4.5 generation fighter of any type full stop…
I’m liking the calls for 3% on defence. Shapps was another one over the weekend. With such meagre stocks in our warehouses, surely 3% should be made law??
Hi Robert,
I did see Shapps call for 3% but wasn’t aware of anyone else – do you know who else is pushing?
It will fall on deaf ears unfortunately as Sunak has no interest in defence.
Of course he has an interested in defence. He’s the Prime Minister, he needs options. But Chancellor has to look at the whole government spending requirements. And lots of departments want more cash. Some just affect our daily lives more than others. 2.5% should be the shorter term aim. Which is sensible when set against the wider issue’s facing a struggling economy with high inflation and interest rates. 3% would be very nice in the longer term.
Very true Sunak keeps going back to when he was chancellor and smiling saying he put a lot more money in Defence the biggest since the cold war days.However one it wasn’t enough and two it was Boris doing really as he was PM.
At least Johnson sought and desired that we be the largest navy in Europe.
No Arguments there 🍺
The aim should be for the most capable and deadly Navy in Europe. That doesn’t always mean the most hulls in the water.
Hi David, so there are Truss, Hunt, Shapps off the top of my head. I think Johnson was opposed to it, but who cares what he thinks lol
Not going to happen. On Twitter/X yesterday you should have seen how angry people were about the £4bn SSN-AUKUS funding announcement. The average Joe wants to see every last penny of government spending go to the NHS, education and social etc. Those of us here who want to see a defence spending uplift are in a very small minority with most probably being over 50 too. The average 18-40 year old Briton lives in a safety bubble with no concept of the external threats we face.
Only one answer to the living in a make believe bubble NATIONAL SERVICE.
Can you imagine that!
🤗 now that would be something
They need to get the chequebook out and that latest committee report that was published on here is damning for procurement so a bit of both sides in truth. The youth have their say, yes, but older chaps have seen some life.
3% is a necessity!
Spot on 😏
Order of the Ditch: You are right. IPSOS Poll on UK public spending priorities, Defence lay at 7%, at 11th in the top 20 of priorities.
I remember when it constantly lay in the top 3. Perhaps that’s because the country still had many people who directly remembered WWII and other defence emergencies.
IT’S a very good point 👍
Why do we focus on the pilot’s who although vital in the chain are not the entirety of it. There are MT drivers, engineers, support functions which, without this vital function, the jets and therefore pilot’s would not be able to operate. Perhaps focusing on the supporting functions would hold more benefit to morale rather than focusing on a pilot who hold a small but integral part of a functional military machine.