British fighter jets deploy to Poland

First I have heard but does make some sense perhaps. F-35 for Air Defence is not really using it to its major strengths especially when airframes are few, which is in the offensive realm and if they could get Typhoons at an acceptable cost (big if) they would be a far better bet to take on that specific role, leaving the F-35s to concentrate on what they excel at and give that 4th/5th Gen mix that most major players are sensibly going for. Relying on F-35 to do everything is going to be a tough and expensive and very long winded process to develop. Wonder if supplying our early spec Typhoons to them while new ones are built is an option, they can still be very effective interceptors and would be a great initiator in preparing for the latest version when it arrives speeding up the support process at every level. Equally of course, it might be an attractive way in to a Tempest involvement at some level too down the line. It would certainly bring their air force in to line with the strengths being built for their army and navy both shorter and long term. Not sure however if the South Korean aircraft purchase offers enough of a similar balance and effectiveness at far less cost and likely even quicker to preclude a Typhoon purchase.

I agree.

A mix is very much needed.

They have gifted their MiG antique collection.

F35 is an amazing leap forwards but I think Typhoon T4 leapfrogs that.

So, already, F35 looks, in some respects, a bit dated: mainly due to its crazy long gestation period.

The key with keeping anything military current is to move like lightening from concept to production.

Hopefully Tempest will show the way on this.

While fun to say, don’t kid yourself. A typhoon wouldn’t live long enough to see an F-35 in real life. Ask the RAF pilots who fly it and exist largely as target practice for the F-35’s in training. Luckily the Russians and Chinese don’t field the same capability.

To be fair, hes not kidding himself at all, Robert knows the F35s capability, he’s highlighted it many times.

Cheers pal 👍

I think what Robert was saying was the synergy between F35 and Typhoon they cover each others weakness. F35 has the low observability and can act as a sensor hub..typhoon has the ability to carrier a large load our has the sensor fusion and EW kit to allow it to hang back being a brutal BVR platform, stay out of trouble and kill what the F35 sees…a pair of Typhoons can carry 28 meteors where as a pair of F35 can only carry four ASRAAMs internally (it would not want external load out if it’s playing hide away)….that means a pair of f35 working with a pair of Typhoons are far more lethal than 4 F35….simply because 28 meteors could gut most airforces.

Beautifully reasoned, the bigger picture is always worth developing and it’s why at least theoretically a Typhoon against most, if not all when it’s upgraded will be as, or more effective as he argues because stealth won’t arguably be so crucial and other aspects as you say come into play with great effect and Meteor esp in large load out and combined with a top notch sensor/radar fit will on many occasions be a better fit for the job than stealth with yes equally good sensors and radar but otherwise some significant less capability.

Another way to think about it is a F35 is like a sniper. They roam about unseen, scouting out their quarry and taking out their targets from distance like a thief in the night. Whilst Typhoon is like a Challenger tank or Chally 3 when both have been upgraded. In that yes it can take targets out at distance, but they can both mix it up in close combat when needed.

The let down of the F-35 being like a sniper, is the range of AMRAAM!

Currently the F35 is cleared for the 120C-7 and is currently in the process of clearing the 120D.

Yes it’s not a bad missile, but it’s not meteor.

AMRAAM is still one of the most capable A2A weapons. Only bettered by Meteor.

Well put mate 👍

That’s it, mate. F35 can pass targting information to other 4th or 5th gen assets while remaining un seen. The bad guys might know one is in the area but could not track or engage one. 4 x AMRAAM can be carried internally or 2 x AMRAAM and 2 x Paveway 4. 8 SPEAR 3’s will be to be carried internally once that weapon enters service. 👍

Agreed.

They are complimentary.

Also the range of the NATO A2A weapons is very substantial.

I think the quality of Radar2 is being underestimated here. It is much more advanced than F35’s radar – it is two generations newer.

Yes I think what most people tend to forget is that for all intents and purposes apart from stealth typhoon is a fifth generation fighter…it’s sensor synergy, how it feed the pilot informations, sensors, EW are all fifth generation, it’s just the low observability it does not have. Now people forget that there needs to be a platform radiating to find at BVR ranges….that means low observability is only at its best when your not radiating….so essentially attacking and penetrating already active integrated air defence systems….if your trying to attack other aircraft your going to be radiating so stealth becomes lesser to EW, sensor fusion and the ability of the pilot sensor interface to take in all the threats understand where it’s coming from and attack it.

Typhoon is lower observability than you might think just by looking at it.

It is one of the reasons that Tranche 1 isn’t really upgradable to Tranche 4 specs. Some interesting new materials emerged. It isn’t just coatings.

RCS reduction work was done by Malvern, RAE etc right from WW2. It was/is a dynamic process of mitigation.

I believe it was football sized low observation over the baseball Size of the f35.

A football made of what vs a baseball made of what – makes a difference?

As you say it is pretty stealthy IRL.

Compared to the Russian stuff that has managed, in some aspects, to have a greater RCS than the size of the plane.

Leather I suppose….after all if a balls not made of leather it’s not going to make the goalie work for the saves.But that would be very stealthy indeed so maybe they we’re comparing aluminium balls….that would hurt to kick.

I was being tongue in cheek.

The RCS chamber calibrations used to be done with a set of metal balls on a pole.

Yes but what you make a football out of is really important….not so much a baseball…as that’s not really a proper game…rounders with uniforms.

With a leather football you would probably just see the valve at most frequencies!

Now that would be a claim…..has the radar cross section of a valve in a leather-football or can detect the valve in a leather football from 200miles.

Typhoon has a pretty low frontal RCS. Mainly due to the S curve designed air intake hiding the turbine blades. Along with Radar absorbant materials and paint.

Um, not quite. The F35 still leads the way with its passive sensors. Though with the Praetorian and IRST upgrade Typhoon will get much closer. It just won’t have that all round passive visibility, that the F35’s EOTS provides.

When there are two F35s flying as a paired formation. By using their covert multi-function advanced data-link (MADL), along with the EOTS and using their navigation system. They can work out a target’s range. Something that either had to be laser ranged or illuminated by radar. The IR based EOTS can be used for BVR combat.

Again, this is something that Typhoon could do in the future, if it gets a covert data-link. If its stuck with Link-16, it won’t work, as Link-16 is an omni-directional broadcast.

Isn’t the Radar2 just a prototype and mostly still a concept at this stage and isn’t expected to be operational until 2030? Not sure how we can say which will be better at this point considering that the F-35 is also getting a new radar (AN/APG-85) that is at a similar stage of development.

The latest reporting seem to indicate that the new AN/APG-85 was developed in complete secrecy and is actually much further along in it’s development that initially realized. I personally suspect that since this radar was developed by Northrop, it’s most likely a scaled down version of whatever radar will be used by the B-21 which incidentally was also developed by Northrop.

I think we can say that Radar2 is better than what is in F35 now.

We can also say that it is UK IP.

Further, there is a development pathway for Tempest. Which involves putting the transmit / receiver electronics on the back of the array.

Agreed. It’s endlessly frustrating knowing that the UK has the IP to have completed Radar2 years ago but somehow lack the political will to get projects like these done.

I wouldn’t say it’s two generations ahead of APG-81. But it will probably be on par with APG-85. APG-81 is an outstanding radar. The electronic attack capability of ECRS MK2 will be a real game changer for Typhoon.

There have been two massive changes in processing alone since APG-81’s conception.

Processor -> GPU(gen1) -> GPU(gen2)

That us why there is so much fuss about the tech from NVIDIA, ARM, Imagination leaking as it is all very, very dual use. The ARM and Imagination is very useful for denser packing as the phone flavours are very optimised.

Then the surface fabrication of the array itself is also moving very fast cutting out a lot of bits so a powerful array us no longer massive or heavy!

Taken together the differences are huge.

Cracking tech info mate. Thanks for that.👍 ERCS Mk2 ‘s array is on a gimble I believe for very wide scan angles.

Not quite sure if you are being tongue in cheek?

It was just meant to be a slightly vague and generalised comment as to the very high level drivers of the direction development.

The UK centric nature of 2/3 of the companies mentioned is, perhaps, significant.

No mate, wasn’t being tongue in cheek. I didn’t know about the different processors 👍

The F-35B(UK only) carry their ASRAAMs externally near the wing tip. I think you have mixed them up with AMRAAM Jonathan, which is a U.S. missile which is presently used by all F-35 that is mainly carried internally. ASRAAM is a European IR missile. Yes F-35 can carry 4 AMRAAM internally. It would be good if a splitter pylon could be developed for the bomb pylon, to give an extra AMRAAM or an ASRAAM.
The U.S version of the ASRAAM is the Sidewinder, I am not sure if U.S. F-35’s carry Sidewinders?

Yes it was a typo..my mind was typing AMRAAM…my fingers type ASRAAM.

Jon, ASRAAM is only cleared on the outer wing pylons of the F35. They are not cleared for internal carriage, as the door and bomb bay does not use the rail system for launching, which ASRAAM uses. This is why AMRAAM is fitted internally (2 per bay) as that can be fitted with launch rail hangers or ejector lugs.

In regards to the increased RCS, both the pylon, launcher and missile are angled to minimise any 90 degree reflective surfaces. The pylons are supposed to be coated in radar absorbent material. Having the missile, launcher and pylon fitted under the wing will raise the aircraft’s RCS, but not significantly from a frontal aspect. From the side there are other factors in play, such as the missile’s tubular body and tail fins, which will be good radar reflectors. Though the Sidewinder is worse in this respect, due to its additional forwards fins.

Yes it was a typo…what’s an S and M amounts friends,

No worries bud. A while back, there was a rumor that the USAF wanted to try ASRAAM on the F22. But this got stopped by a number of Senators who happened to have large numbers of Raytheon donors in their constituency. They couldn’t stop it on the F35, as that was a UK requirement. The F22 and ASRAAM would have been an awesome combination.

Yes that’s very sad as the AIM-9 is a noticeably inferior weapon to the ASRAAM.

And that’s the point its capability against Russian opposition will in reality be not dissimilar to an F-35s at least in the air defence role. Stealth characteristics as things stand are far more useful in the interdiction role not that anyone is going to prefer a non stealth design all things being equal agreed. He was equally stating the case for the P4E upgrade and no Typhoon or F-35 pilot has operated in a real time scenario where that is operational nor taking into consideration whether the F-35 by that time that it is, has a fuller missile fit or not to add to its capabilities. Time will tell.

You are correct in saying F35, especially as a BVR platform has a considerable advantage over any Typhoon. But the pair working together brings huge fire power and situational awareness to dominate any battle space.

That’s true Robert but we are still only getting 40 aircraft upgraded with new AESA radar, new cockpit, etc.,. – not the entire Typhoon fleet of 107. Phenomenal aircraft upgrade but still only 40….

It is a small number, and hopefully, in time, the Tranche 2 aircraft will receive some or all of the main upgrade package. But 30 or 40 deployable Typhoons along with 24 or more F35’s is a force that only the US could match. And those are the realistic deployable numbers. Back in the Tornado GR4 days, 30/40 was the max number from a much larger force. I believe about 32 deployable for op Telic in 2003. Numbers are smaller, but the capability and availability of today’s fleet far surpasses the force structure of 20 odd years ago.

Thought that was the RAF wish list, but not necessarily funded. Apologies to all.

Hi mate. Typhoon upgrades are fully funded. And a MOD funding line is open and funded for more tranche 2 F35B’s. Negotiations with LM are ongoing for that order. 👍

Totally agree SB, but I would say that drip feeding funding has seriously damaged Radar 2’s prospects on this occasion though.

When it was announced recently that the system would finally get into service by 2030 and only on 34 aircraft, I was really taken back, it’s a great example of the UK’s insane procument system in all its glory, fantastic potential just watered down to a negligible effect.

The reality is by 2030, it will have been technologically eclipsed by the next generation, the 15 years of grindingly slow development and fielding, just leaving it behind.

It makes me so angry that what appears to be a very capable radar indeed, is being procured in pathetically small numbers and ‘years’ late…

I fear the Japanese will take the lead on GCAP Radar ( they are apparently really pushing the technological boundaries with RI by all accounts) and the UK will loose it’s fighter radar abilities forever.

All for lack of domestic funding and governmental indifference to Thypoon development potential.

It’s such a great aircraft that will never now reach its development potential, it’s partners are going different ways and Tempest is likely to sprint off the starting line and strangle off any further Thypoon spending.

There was me thinking 40 aircraft.

Problem with budgetary thinking, same as T45, spend the budget on R&D and reduce the front line numbers.

The lions share of the money will have been spent perfecting it and the software to drive it.

Similar money to SAMPSON I would guess.

Is it 40 SB, I stand corrected, but 6 more is in reality neither here, or there my friend….

Absolutely bloody obviously, all tranche 2 and 3 should be fully upgraded with the new radar, systems, wide angle display ete, etc and at least 30 ordered to replace tranche 1 …

A single capable fleet, all to the same standard, to fly the flag until Tempest starts to be delivered in 2035.

But no, it’s fleets within fleets again…. We can only hope the Tempest / loyal wingman pairing ends this once and for all.

In reply to John Clark. But isn’t that possibly the better thing with all developments going into Tempest? After all, it will be the platform the UK will be purchasing once it’s flying in the projected timeframe? The MOD is still claiming the demo will be flying in 2026, whether we believe that or not. Buying more F35s or Typoons wouldn’t be the best option, or would it?

It is perfectly possible for the *demonstrator* or **maybe* prototype – can’t be bothered to rerun the EAP argument of last month to be flying in three years or TBH less.

I think it is the T23 argument of degradation, fade and worn out that bother me.

No Arguments there 🍺

The aim should be for the most capable and deadly Navy in Europe. That doesn’t always mean the most hulls in the water.

IT’S a very good point 👍