Challenger 2 tanks and armoured vehicles of the Royal Welsh battlegroup have arrived in Estonia, with further equipment and around 1000 troops arriving over the coming days, according to the Ministry of Defence.

This will lead to a doubling of the UK presence in Estonia, where the UK leads a NATO battlegroup as part of the Alliance’s enhanced Forward Presence.

Additionally, the Ministry of Defence say, RAF Typhoon fighter jets have already completed their first air policing missions across the region, with an additional four aircraft based at RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus.

“Typhoons flying from bases in Cyprus and the UK are now patrolling NATO airspace over Romania and Poland alongside NATO allies with Voyager air-to-air refuelling aircraft in support.”

Britain to increase fighter jet presence in Poland and Romania

Britain is moving army battlegroups, Apache attack helicopters, fighter jets and warships to Eastern Europe due to tensions with Russia. According to a statement:

  • The UK is doubling the number of personnel in Estonia and sending additional equipment, including tanks and armoured fighting vehicles. These troops and equipment will begin to move to Estonia today. 
  • The Royal Welsh battlegroup, which includes armoured vehicles and personnel, will leave Sennelager in Germany and bases in the UK and begin to arrive in Estonia during the coming week.
  • Apache helicopters will soon be making their way to conduct exercises with our Allies and partners in Eastern Europe.
  • Four additional UK Typhoon jets have also landed in Cyprus and will shortly begin to patrol the skies with NATO Allies in Eastern Europe.
  • HMS Trent – a UK Warship – has already begun conducting patrols in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea alongside NATO Allies from Canada, Italy, Spain and Turkey.
  • HMS Diamond is preparing to set sail in the coming days for the Eastern Mediterranean and will join up with NATO allies.

British military reinforcing Eastern Europe amid Russian tensions

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace MP said:

“Our armed forces are once again being called upon in the service of our Nation and I salute the bravery and sense of duty shared by all our personnel who have been deployed to support NATO. Alongside our NATO Allies, these deployments constitute a credible deterrent to stop Russian aggression threatening the territorial sovereignty of member states.”

At a meeting of NATO Heads of State and government yesterday (25 February), all 30 member nations agreed that:

“We will make all deployments necessary to ensure strong and credible deterrence and defence across the Alliance, now and in the future. Our measures are and remain preventive, proportionate and non-escalatory.”

George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. He also works for the NHS. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
1 month ago

The nerve of our politicians to knowingly underfund the army and sending our boys potentially to fight and die with sub-par equipment.

Last edited 1 month ago by Levi Goldsteinberg
ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago

Hi Levi, Yeh, really winds me up. I hope they are know realising that just how few troops and tanks, etc. we have. James Heappey was on BBC Point West last night and seemed to suggest that it would take 20 years to ‘win’ the military competition with Russia. I took that to mean that perhaps we are looking at rebuilding our military capability. Twenty years would be a reasonable time given the awful position we are in. We have neglected not only our miliatry, put our military industrial based as well. Seriously stupid on behalf of our pathetic leadership… Read more »

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

We need a crash 5 year & longer term 10 year plan. 20 years is as useful as the Nazi’s Z plan due to complete c1945/6+.

Last edited 1 month ago by Frank62
Dean
Dean
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Well said gents.
24 tanks out of just under 200! Tanks that are out dated. Equipment that we cant afford to use? But its called the peace dividend!!

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago

Are Challenger 2 tanks, Eurofighter Typhoons and Apache gunships sub par equipment?

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Spot on.

Lordtemplar
Lordtemplar
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Certainly not compared to Russian gear

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago
Reply to  Lordtemplar

Exactly.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Hi Robert,

Not those equipments so much, although Chally 2 is 25 years old. However, Warrior is in need of update and the Royal Welsh battlegroup is also using the Boxer which is an updated FV432 – nearly 60 years old, not to mention AS90..!

Typhoon and Apache will go some way to making up for some or our armoured vehicle short falls, but we need to address those short falls with some urgency – CV90 looks pretty good for a Warrior…

Cheers CR

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Bulldog mate! I know what you meant.

Andy reandy reeves evesandy262@gmail.com
Andy reandy reeves [email protected]
1 month ago

The mighty Trent will keep the Russian fleet out of the way

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago

DOH! That’ll teach me to try and watch the Rugby and post 🙂

Cheers CR

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Yes but the T72s T80s and T90s the challengers would potentially face are just as old. The problem is the relatively small number that we can field.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago

The Chally 2 can eat T72s, T80s and T90s for breakfast. Far superior weapon system.

chris
chris
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I think Saddam’s army in 1990 was more impressive and effective than what we’re seeing right now.

It was the 5th largest standing army at the time.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Exactly, the argument that challenger 2 is obsolete is bogus, and shame on the MOD for scrapping much this decent piece of kit.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago

Yes it is obsolescent. Now if Russian bring only 3rd rate stuff with 20 years old sights it is competitive.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

And T72/80/90 are not ? They are older designs than challenger 2.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

You know it’s not just us squaring off against the Russians? Like 30 countries including the USA.

peter Wait
peter Wait
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Updated 432 is the Bulldog, reliable Cummings engine and Allison gearbox !

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  peter Wait

Hi Peter,

Yeh, Daniele pointed that out me as well. Obviously, I can’t watch the rugby and post at the same time. 🙂

Cheers CR

Jay
Jay
1 month ago
Reply to  peter Wait

Still had an iffy transmission in Iraq, the throttle cable would also get stuck with sand and grease locking the engine into constant revs, I was in such a vehicle !

David
David
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Hi Robert.

I agree with what you are saying wholeheartedly – C2, Typhoon and Apache are excellent. The problem is paltry numbers we have to the point that what we have wouldn’t bother the Russians too much.

I read once before that the entire British Army would last less than a week against the Russians. Sobering….

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  David

From what we have seen from the Russians over the last few days, I think the British Army would wipe the floor with them. But i agree, our numbers have dropped to low.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

So far we have only seen the advance scouts in action, the main force doesn’t appear to have yet been deployed. There is a lot of talk of its first attack happening tonight, but we will see.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

Intelligence estimates are 30% of the Russian buildup was deployed in the first two days, and that has now passed 50% on the third day but its primarily combat units, a lot of their logistics remain undeployed which is causing them issues. I would argue that the roads have been a major limiting factor as expected and they have used helicopter borne troops and paratroopers for most of their rapid pushes. The snowfall in the east over the last few days has probably allowed the throttling up of troop movements, compared to Chernobyl area where it hasnt. That said where… Read more »

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Thank you for the update Watcherzero, do we know if Russia is pulling up more forces to the area? I’ve read there are 10,000 additional forces coming from Chechnya.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

10,000 Chechen National Guard allegedly included in the buildup, Chechens were in the (2nd, 3rd? wave to move on Kiev) suffered 70 casualties in a single bombing raid including their deputy commander then hightailed it out of Ukraine. Latest estimate is now 66% of pre-positioned troops have entered the country however 20% of the buildup is unusable due to not being in a running condition with the stuff that the Russians claimed were being pulled back after the exercise being those vehicles that were broken beyond field repair.

Last edited 1 month ago by Watcherzero
GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

That reads like relatively good news, if the Ukrainians can continue to hold out, Russian forces could be wearing down.

dave12
dave12
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

On twitter multiple video accounts of Russian tanks running out fuel and are stranded , that I cant get my head round.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  dave12

I saw that, initially I put it down to fake news, but there seems to be so many examples that I’m starting to believe it is true.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  dave12

It’s because they logistical tail is far behind the lead elements. Basics.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  dave12

Wars can be lost on poor/lack of logistics.

Pete
Pete
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

I suspect he is banking on inventory of Javelins and NLAW etc to be exhausted before committing his main forces.

Pete
Pete
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

The issue as others have stated is volume and will add, depth of inventory such as Brimstone etc that makes Typhoon so effective. Spread too thin over such a vast area.

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  David

But even in the Cold War, NATO units prepared logistics for a six plus two strategy in which there would be six days of fighting at full strength and two at a reduced strength.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  David

It was the British Army of the Rhine (BAOR) that was expected to have the life expectancy of a week. Their job was to hold up the Warpac mechanized assaults long enough for NATO’s reserves to get forward. The Army in the UK was seen as this reserve along with French and Spanish elements. These three combined would form the units to fill the gaps. Again it was hoped that they’d last long enough for the lead elements of US and Canadian troops to get across the Atlantic. The issue with the Chally is that it used to be much… Read more »

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Really interesting read. Thankyou. Even with the shorter APFSDS round I doubt a T-90 would be happy being hit by one. The French optics! What a surprise….sold China Crotale missiles too…….

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  OldSchool

The T-90M Proryv-3 (which means “breakthrough”) has had the Armata’s gun fitted in place of the normal 2A46. It was reported that the Russian Army wanted the Armata’s 2A82-1M fitted to rest of the fleet, as it has a much greater muzzle velocity than the 2A46. But I believe it needs a longer turret as used on the Proryv-3.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Yes and then let the Chinese (through hacking of Naval Group servers) get access to latest Suffren/ Barricuda class sub designs. You really couldnt make it up. Result. Warships IFR reported a new AIP compact sub that was seen by satellite after launch in one of Chinese river estuary. It looked exactly like a shrunken Barricuda and no doubt was built rapidly as a yechnology testing mule before China enters serial production on a full sized version. Thanks France youve just advanced Chinese submarine technology by 2 generations and endangered one of our few areas where the West was technologically… Read more »

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

The master speaks we learn

Tim
Tim
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

The updates you talk about on the t90 have only been done on very few tanks and I’m pretty sure none of them have been fitted with the t14 gun

Alex Omond
Alex Omond
1 month ago
Reply to  David

It was much the same in the Cold War days. BAOR and its reinforcements from the UK would have been lucky to last a week back then before having to revert to tactical nukes or full scale Armageddon.

Steve R
Steve R
1 month ago
Reply to  David

British Army might not but RAF and Royal Navy would beat the shit out of their Russian counterparts even with smaller numbers.

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve R

The British Army has FV432…what are you worrying about?!

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  David

Hi David your statement on survivability of the Army, When I started my time in the forces we were given a sobering lecture by people in the Know if the cold War had or could of gone Hot their hypothesis for the forces was The RAF 24/48hrs The NAVY 7 days The ARMY indefinitely if Resupply was possible made us sit up and listen but someone asked who would resupply the ARMY .Shoulders were shrugged make of that what you will But that’s what we were briefed on ,quite sobering that was the 70ts

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  David

Who is seriously thinking that the British Army alone could be ranged against the entire Russian Army? What are they smoking? Have they not heard of NATO.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Just do what I do whenever you start to read that nonsense scroll down. Nothing you say will get them to change subject.

Nigel cook
Nigel cook
1 month ago
Reply to  David

That’s what you read

Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

👍

I think the kit is better than anything the Russian Armed Forces can field. And in this case I would also point out that the British are known for being excessively well trained and ridiculously professional.

Just need more of everything.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Yes I agree, not sub par, just to few and I suspect more fires needed.

Last edited 1 month ago by Jonathan
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

No

Compare to Russian carp.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Apparently so, I’m sure challenger 3, boxer and Ajax are also sub par and totally incapable of taking on those supper hi tech T72 and BMP’s we keep seeing rolling in to Ukraine.

Andrew
Andrew
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Unfortunately, challenger 3 is a future upgrade…. The upgrade contract was only signed middle of last year, so unfortunately our boys and girls will be using equipment, that is arguably inferior in some respects to the latest Russian standard tanks….

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew

I’m reference to the Russian T14 tanks widely deployed in power point and YouTube maybe. However the vast hoard of T72 and T80 with deck chairs welded on their turrets currently on CNN crossing the Ukrainian broader is a different story. C2 has a better proven track record than any other tank against T72 as well as Russian shoulder launched ATGM.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago

At the moment the kit the lads have in Estonia is as good as most others. The Chally is still an impressive MBT, the Warrior, 30mm good enough (for now) and the AS90 adequate.The RE kit is on par with the rest of NATO, as is the AD (notice im ignoring the 432s). Biggest issue we have is as ever numbers and depth. We as ever will fight with out Allies next to us, and all nations will maximise their strengths and mitigate their weakeness through teamwork, training, TTPs and experience. Although we are lacking in certain areas, for any… Read more »

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Plus we need the Army chiefs to get their flipping act together. The biggest problem our Army faces is the people at the top.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Agreed mate.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

👍

John Williams
John Williams
1 month ago

All it would take is a military defeat and Boris Johnson is gone

peter fernch
peter fernch
1 month ago
Reply to  John Williams

A miltary defeat and were all gone. Seems that the only objective you have John is ti get rid of Johnson Strange

Patrick
Patrick
1 month ago

Have you seen the old Cold War crap the Russians are using. The kit is not sub par, there’s just far too little of it.

dan
dan
1 month ago

That’s what happens when people elect liberal candidates that put their liberal social agenda ahead of the national security of their country. Same thing is happening in America. People seem to want Britain and America to become more like France. Ugh

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  dan

Dan for FS we are all liberals..we live in western liberal democracies ( it’s in the bleeding title mate.

Liberal = denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.

Stop using the word liberal as a slur, it means your either a communist, facist, feudalist or support the idea of a theocracy…. which one is it ? you supporter of totalitarianism you.

Robert Billington
Robert Billington
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Exactly, we have been liberals since the English Civil War. The difference since the later Glorious Revolution has been liberal or more liberal.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yeah **** the NHS, let’s bring back the BAOR. Who needs pensions and roads or schools, **** liberals 😀

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

When we had BAOR, we also had pensions, roads and schools. Perhaps the benefits bill was a bit lower in those days.

peter fernch
peter fernch
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yes and its fashionable in America to accuse far left democrats as \liberals
Allways thought it a strange assertion however must add that the tag of being a LIberal has been highjacked by left leaning Politicians
Further, Liberals have adopted Green Policies and some other hobby Horses of the tree hgging variety

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  peter fernch

Yes agree those into identify politics on both side, have highjacked liberal for their own ends, the right as a slur and the left as their banner. When if you believe in democracy and the rule of law, personal freedom etc your liberal.

Patrick
Patrick
1 month ago
Reply to  dan

Yeah cause Mr Trumpski did a great job with the US military.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  Patrick

He did.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  dan

Fucking stuck record… 🤦🏻‍♂️

Something Different
Something Different
1 month ago

Could the British Army do with newer kit, the answer is yes. Has the RN and RAF in the last 20 years invested in lots of new peer comparable kit, also yes. Is Russia fielding some new kit but also substantial numbers of Cold War equipment, again yes. What we need is numbers and a proper increase in defence spending across NATO and unequivocal commitment to Article 5 and forward deployment of forces in eastern NATO countries.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago

The nerve of our politicians to knowingly underfund the army

I am sorry but the Army put themselves in this too. Where is FRES?

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

👍

peter Wait
peter Wait
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

FRES failed as French, German and American wheeled vehicles tested were not air portable, strangely we are now getting the German Boxer which did perform the best in Bovington trials lol

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

The politicians and the Treasury got scared at the size of the programme (which followed on from FLAV and FFLAV) and killed it off except for Ajax, thus releasing £5bn to go to CV(F). Lucky Navy!

julian1
julian1
1 month ago

I get the feeling now defence budget will increase. As well as of course Tory MPs, I have heard labour MPs and even Ian Blackford (SNP) stating that appropriate money needs to be spend to meet the threat. Who would have thought? May put a real dent in the SNP independence dream too….

Cripes
Cripes
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

The Labour Shadow Defence guy has already called for the latest cuts to the forces to be reversed. So has the Lib Democrats leader and the SNP’s Westminster leader. On the Tory side, Tobias Eĺlwood, Tom Tughendat and Ian Duncan-Smith have all said force levels are too low. Dannatt also, who has queried the tilt to Asia and the maritime strategy. Robert Buckley, until recently a Government Minister, asked if the IDR would now be revisited. There seems to be some recognition that the Global Britain strategy and the defence cuts are both erroneous. It was notable though that, in… Read more »

Julian1
Julian1
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

Bots himself said to the CSDC that the days of Russian tanks rolling over european plains are gone. Perhaps not Boris, perhaps not so much has changed at all. It must be reviewed.

bill masen
bill masen
1 month ago

Just like they did in Iraq and A/stan

Kevvo
Kevvo
1 month ago

Our failure to properly resource defence expenditure in both hardware and personnel over the last 30 years or so is now coming home to roost. Hopefully what we have won’t be needed.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Kevvo

I entirely sympathize with what you say Levi and Kevvo but at least we are making a real effort which is more than can be said of some.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Agreed

CR

Nathan
Nathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Yes and no. Germany is still in a post war mindset and struggles to imagine its self as a military power and leader. France and the UK so still have these aspirations, I don’t think Spain or Italy do. The problem is not our funding, it is that our funding doesn’t match out aspirations. We are all beating ourselves up because we know we are leaders and not supporters, our history shows that, but our funding has been insufficient to fulfil this role. Ukraine is not a strategic nation for the USA but it is Europe’s backyard. So we should… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Agreed Germany blocked Ukraine joining NATO years ago and refused to allow Latvia to donate old ex East German Howitzers to Ukraine when Russian build up begun. Disgraceful behaviour.

grizzler
grizzler
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Where is that information – I did ask about this a day or two ago – I would be interested to see the details you have identified- cheers

Robert Billington
Robert Billington
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I queried this on another thread and was called a moron lol

Alex Omond
Alex Omond
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Totally agree. 5000 helmets was what Germany offered up to today, little more than a bad joke. Now they are saying they will supply weapon systems to Ukraine 4 days into an unwinnable war. Just how and where are they going to supply these weapons. Russia has air superiority and have just about captured all the strategic targets. Just about 4weeks too late Germany.

Tim
Tim
1 month ago
Reply to  Alex Omond

Actually Russia doesn’t have air superiority the air space is contested due to manpads they lost another 2 cargo planes loaded with paras

peter Wait
peter Wait
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Can’t have Ukraine exploiting their gas and oil reserves and turning off the Russian pipeline, would cut off the donations and bribes !

John Williams
John Williams
1 month ago

Has the UK army started to remove tanks from storage?

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
1 month ago
Reply to  John Williams

No, in fact as plans stand at the moment, we’re putting close to half of our active tanks in storage

Steve
Steve
1 month ago

I can’t help thinking that decision will be reversed before it happens, or at least should be but with policticans you never know how they will act.

Max Jones
Max Jones
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

Seems likely. Germany just injected a hundred billion euros into its military which seems insane. For the UK there will surely be increases in defence spending after this.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Max Jones

That is one large injection, although it appears to include the existing budget, so not totally new money. Will be interesting to see what they spend it on.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

They spent $52b last year in dollars, the increase is $112b, so even if it included the existing money, that’s doubling the amount, if new its tripling, that’s major.

In comparison the UK is $59b, so they will significantly overtake our expenditure.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

Storage tanks, it has a level of irony considering the roots of the name.

peter Wait
peter Wait
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The joy of cramming things in a shed with a leaky asbestos roof and shower of seagull poo !

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  peter Wait

That sounds exactly like a ward I worked on many years ago….we actually had to go around and prod the ceiling tiles to make sure they were not so saturated in seagull poo water that they would collapse on the patients ( these were haematology patients with shot away immune systems).

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It wasn’t Stanley hospital by any chance johnathan in 83 back down there had too have an xray hospital roof covered in Gull poo went back down in 87 Hospital roof was a light blue colour apparently the gulls wouldn’t crap on it as they don’t seem to drop poo on the sea only land so the hospital installed a blue coloured roof Job done

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

Hi Tommo, I’m a bit of a young whipper snapper and only left school in 87. The poo sodden ceiling was in 97 at a hospital that will remain nameless in the south east of the country, by the sea. I know for a fact it still has the same seagull poo ridden roof that leaks as I have mates that still work there.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Oh well it was just a maybe but if the roof is still like that they should take a look at Stanley’s roof for ideas

David Steeper
1 month ago

The problem is the Army has cut the support for the Tanks we have to the bone never mind more but hey it’s kept the Infantry’s cap badges and the berths for all those Lieut Colonels.

grizzler
grizzler
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

and I assume their pensions.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  grizzler

😁😁How dare you suggest such a thing !

Armchair Admiral
Armchair Admiral
1 month ago

Would be nice to have some track mounted Brimstone launchers. A quick, easy and very punchy addition to go some way in making up for the lack of our tank numbers. For what its worth, I still think a Challenger 2 is a top notch bit of kit despite the lack of recent updates.
Have we seen evidence of the thousands of tanks the Russians have massed by the border being used yet?
AA

Coll
Coll
1 month ago

Check out this old concept from Germany, which is interesting.

Jagdleopard-elevating-platform-for-HOT-Anti-Tank-Missiles.jpg
Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago

The armor has been used, particularly in the Cherniv and Kharkiv fronts. A lot of armour has also been flowing in from Belarus through Chernobyl but road capacity has limited the speed of advance so they are only now reaching Kiev and too late to help the airborne forces who were pretty much wiped out and unable to secure the airfields enough for reinforcements to be landed for a lightning push before the armour turned up anyway.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Thanks, was my suspicion. Airborne troops sent in to secure the airfields to allow more troops, supplies and armour to be flown in. But failing to do so and the ground armour taking too long to reach them to relieve them.

The damage this campaign is doing to the Russian Army could take them decades to recover from.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago

No, not yet. Though on Belarus’s border with Poland, both the Russians and Belarus are building up a substantial number of forces. These seemed to have moved away from the Ukrainian border and are now facing West.

grizzler
grizzler
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

I hope the Poles have enough hardware – I think (hope) they will be itching for a fight….NATO or no NATO

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago

How long to upgrade the Challenger 2’s to 3?

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago

Videos on BBC News showing stranded Russian tanks that have run out of fuel. One civilian offers to tow them back to Russia 😄👍

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

Yeah that’s the video I saw on the BBC. Pretty embarrassing for the Russians.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

And the crazy thing is, there doesnt seem to be any hostility or malice between the civvy and the Russkie toms. Does show that maybe Putin has seriously underestimated the collective history and fellowship between the average Ukranian and Russkie.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Hard to know if it’s just propaganda or not, but there are plenty of reports of captured Russian soldiers being mystified by their own army’s actions. I guess most of them have absolutely no desire to be there or do any more violence than they’re ordered to

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago

Could be so mate, its a bit like the Turkish Coup attempt where it would seem the vast majority of those lower in the chain of command had no frigging clue what they were expected to be doing, like rabbits in headlights, no real mission or task, no plan, and indeed many were sacrificial lambs. And they were the ones to suffer afterwards. Alas that is another subject, I will stay on topics, cheers.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

I think he has made a huge mistake. He may well take Ukraine in the coming day’s and week’s, but he will be far weaker for it. And the Russian economy will be in a very bad way. And the Russian military is demonstrating its lack of organisation, experience, and the weakness of it’s technology. And they are fighting literally on their own door step. And it doesn’t look like the Chinese are coming over the hill to save Putins arse. All this talk about hypersonic this and that, and they can’t even set up a reliable logistics chain to… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Rob that just about sums it up. They may have a bit of new tech, but its back to to the way its always been played, fearfull commanders doing what they are told, not what they think, with SNCOs who are only SCNOS as they have stayed on for a few years after conscription, and toms who are still as shite as they have ever been. Yes they are moving towards, and have been for some time, a more professional “volunteer” military, but if this is the best they can do, then “Pukins” days surely have to be numbered?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Exactly mate. And it boils my piss when too many who use this site make them out to be some sort of golden bullet, and everything British must be shite. Despite being too low on numbers. The British Armed Force’s are extremely well trained, organised, and experienced. And in many areas, very well equipped, so we can plug and play with the Americans. And full of talented, educated people who want to be part of it. With real-world global experience. It’s worth its weight in gold.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Be far Robert some of the stuff we have made was a bit shite ( glued on bolt heads anyone) but then we also make some terrifying good stuff ( probably the best SSN in the world, which is the most advance type of conventional war fighting kit anywhere). So very good in some areas, pretty good all around with very occasional levels of amazing comedy level shiteness.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Agree with Astute. Nuclear subs technically, are the most advanced and complex machines ever made by mankind.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Total agreement from me mate.

Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

👍 Spot on x2 Robert! Ah the much vaunted Russian Army..! Its been completely reformed in the last 10 years don’t you know, they don’t use conscripts any more (only in the kitchen to peel spuds and clean the bogs), they are now a professional army with “contractors” (i.e conscripts who have signed on an extra year for better pay and rations). Seems to me to be much the same BS people used to say about the Red Army in the cold war. Fancy helmets and nice camouflage gear does not a professional army make. I think Gorbochev realised the… Read more »

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Richard Graham

Thanks for the reply, Richard. I certainly do hope they are pulling his plonker 😄👍

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

The British Armed Forces are no matter what, thoroughly professional in nature. A professionalism that’s been honed and refined over hundreds of years of practical experience.
There’s simply no comparison in quality. Though admittedly the Russians have the numbers advantage.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

A numbers advantage that seems to be decreasing with each passing day

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Well said Robert! With you on this. Up the Brits!! 🇬🇧🇭🇲🇳🇿

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

I think he has f**ked up big style. The World is seeing how poorly the famed Russian Army are performing against a significantly smaller force. There is no doubt that they will push to the Dneiper River and form the land corridor to the Crimea. They will probably take Kyiv, but likely to flatten it in doing so. But it’s not going to take 5 days as they predicted. Putin’s main backer is China, who have been ramping up their own military capability to be on par with the USA. I think they are probably ahead of Russia in terms… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

If the West is able to sit back and just inflict harm on Russia through economic sanctions and arming the Ukrainians so that they grind them to a standstill, it might actually make China think twice.
Do the Chinese really think they’d do any better, and with a massive amphibious and airborne assault required for Taiwan?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Totally agree with that.

This hasn’t gone brilliantly and the Taiwanese have modern western kit including a decent airforce.

Netking
Netking
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

The performance of the Russian military and the invasion plans have been puzzling, to say the least. It almost seems like they are trying a western military style, precision strike strategy in order not to alienate the local population. It doesn’t seem to be working as planned but I will caution that they have only committed a small portion of all the assets they have amassed and we’re still only a few days into this. I think its only a matter of time before they return to their favored, scorched earth way of combat.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

Yes you have to remember there are still a good number of ethnic Russians in the population and they are all Slavic people, so he’s looking to take down the government with minimal infrastructure damage he wants an intact county he came put a figure head in charge of, not a shattered remanent.

Netking
Netking
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Agreed. I really don’t think it’s going to plan and it’s only a matter of time before he grows impatient and flattens the whole place and somehow blames it on the west.

Right now, I imagine the border between UKR and Poland should be the busiest place on earth as NATO should be flooding it with every manpad and anti tank weapon they can get their hands on.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

Yes you would hope, they need to be setting up logistic lines from every European country. Ukraine wants to fight and live as a free nation we need to have a literal war level logging line into the county. If they can keep bogging down the Russian army, they will need everything logistic support as their war reserve will start to run down. We should also think about moving any hardware that is in eastern nato nations that the Ukraine armed forces are use to using, they all have old Soviet equipment they are use to using.

Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

Puzzling I agree but whoever’s doctrine you are trying to adopt the primary importance of logistics has been recognised to all military commanders since the dawn of time. I doubt they are holding supply assets in reserve, so reports of fuel and food shortages in the Russian invasion force strikes me as either gross incompetence or that the guys have been selling it off on the q.t. to make a few rubles (as they were reported to be doing by the locals in Belarus). Or perhaps they have adopted a JIT strategy and got that wrong too? “Forget logistics and… Read more »

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Richard Graham

That might be why they’re keeping so many of there troops {1/2} out of the fight. If they can’t supply what they’ve already committed what would be the point of committing more.

Netking
Netking
1 month ago
Reply to  Richard Graham

I have to be honest and say I’m at a complete loss as to why they would have a logistics issue in a country right next door. Something is going on that we’re not aware of as yet and I do fear that Putin, in a panic to maintain his strong man image might escalate this invasion to a truly frightening level. it also makes me think that the oligarchs are looking at their finances and thinking “we might need to do something about this guy”

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

The logistics are carp.

We’re they depending in filling up their T72’s at the motorway services?

It has a slightly jokerish feel about it.

The worrying thing is what does Vlad do in escalation when the war gets bogged down, next week, and he can’t use air power due to the Stingers?

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Agreed. But we need to get liars out of public office too or we’ll become nearly as bad.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I think/both China and Russia may have slapped down their hands too early and give the west the existential scare it needed to realise at a gut level that these nations are the enemy of the west and we need to start acting like it and not sit around the fire singing happy songs of world love and shared profit. I hope the west now really changes its attitude to China and our dependence on it as well as develop 5, 10 and 20 yr re-arming plans ( proper Cold War warrior RR style). It’s the only way we will… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I agree with the wider thrust of your point mate. What concerns me is that, from reports, they’ve not used much of their heavier fires yet. The Kyiv op is still Spetznatz and airborne I believe. That may well be Putin not wanting massive civilian casualties and flattening districts, seeming as he says they are all one people and this is against the “regime” Twitter post earlier showed Thermobaric launcher being brought up near Belgorod. Different kettle of fish then it could get very nasty. Let’s not underestimate them. I hope the Ukrainians have learned well from NATO and are… Read more »

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago

Balanced view as always pal. I think it’s a matter of when not if he takes the country. But I do believe he will be far weaker for it in the long run 👍

Sean
Sean
1 month ago

Putin will have major issues in both his army and at home if he starts inflicting large numbers of casualties in the Ukraine. Many Russians have a relative, or in-laws, ancestors or friends from the Ukraine. It would almost be as bad as him flattening a Russian city.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Well said

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I agree I think the Russian military is a basket case. Lets see. In theory they should surround Kiev by day 5 to 7 and start pressing in. Most forecast are that Ukraine’s military resistance will run out of steam around 1 week into high intensity combat. But lets see. They have no shortage of reserves and volunteers.
Attrition in manpower wont be a ukranian problem. Attrition in heavy weapons and armoured vehicles maybe. Lets hope they can continue to hold out and our rushed NALWs and Javelins can even up the fight.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

All they need are ambush style tactics and to keep picking off tanks and APC’s once you get over a certain % attrition none of the Russians will want to be in them.

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

China is waiting in the wind for the Russian economy to be hugely isolated then they will start buying resources such as oil and gas plus natural minerals etc at massively reduced prices in order to bump up the Russian economy.

Wouldnt even be surprised if they demand some territory to be handed over for ‘farming’ aswell.

John Clark
John Clark
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Unfortunately Airborne, that will change. When civilians start lobbing petrol bombs and sniping from bedroom windows, mutual hate will kick in and the tit for tad retaliation will spark an ingrained and brutal insurgency…..

Equipped from the west, it’s going to be a festering sore for Russia that simply cannot be stamped out.

I think Putin had made a monumental mistake that could end up bringing down his regime.

The spirit of the fearless Cossacks is still strong, they are certainly a very impressive people from what we have witnessed so far.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

As is always the way! Once it becomes an insurgency type operation it becomes really down and dirty! Sad times for all concerned mate!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I was going to post that! Beat me too it. Russians have logistic issues.

Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago

mmm so it seems. Pretty fundamental that. Perhaps these things are not on the curriculum at Russian Sandhurst?

“The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…” Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” Alexander

dave12
dave12
1 month ago

Ye I have comment on this thread already that looking on twitter there are many video accounts of Russian armor running out of fuel , also seen big logistic Columns wiped out.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  dave12

Why fight the tanks when you can let them barrel on past and take out the following logistic columns that they depend on.
Classic defence in depth.

Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

😂😂😂

As my old dad used to say – not so much Vladamir Putin’s Army more like Fred Karno’s Army!! 

Last edited 1 month ago by Richard Graham
Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Love to see all these stranded f*****g 🇷🇺 tanks knocked off one by one and their helicopters too. I hope the NLAWs have been dutributed strategically amongst the whole of Ukraine’s army population and sons Stingers too.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

*sons… some

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago

I have thought that the Ukrainian deployment into the East has effectively placed their regulars in a very dangerous position, not unlike the Allied advance into Belgium in May 1940. Looking at our deployment into Estonia it feels like another overly forward deployment if deterence fails. The gap between Russia and Kaliningrad is very narrow so could be used to cut off the Baltic States, something I am sure NATO commanders are well aware of, but I guess the political imperitive of showing solidarity with the Baltic States is more important when trying to deter an agressive potential enemy. Cheer… Read more »

Matt C
Matt C
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

My take is that it is more than political. Part of the problem with Ukraine is that there were no or very few NATO tripwire forces in the country. Russia was free to open fire without fear of hitting a NATO unit in a high-profile incident, and so they did.

Increasing presence in the (much more vulnerable) Baltics not only demonstrates commitment and prepositions assets, it could deter Russia from pulling another Ukraine and grabbing e.g. Estonia, for fear of NATO personnel getting caught up in the crossfire and creating a precedent.

Andy P
Andy P
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

How I see it too Matt C, if The West is serious about this then we need to put ‘our’ troops on the line. That is something that Putin will understand. In theory they needn’t even be that well armed etc in this instance (NOT THAT I’M SUGGESTING WE USE THEM AS SACRIFICIAL PAWNS). You would think it would reinforce things in Putin’s head if we are going in ‘heavy’ though and ready for the fight.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

Hi Matt, It is indeed political and it is a point that needs to be made. However, it does not change the miliatry situation. NATO forces in the Baltic States are vulnerable to being cut off from the rest of NATO. That risk is mitigated somewhat by the fact that the Russians have moved some naval units from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Also NATO air power should be able to deal with the Russian Air Force in time but whether they could do it in time to relieve the Baltic States is something I cannot judge. European NATO… Read more »

Matt C
Matt C
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

On the Estonian deployment, you are appreciating the matter from a solely tactical perspective. Before we even get there, we will first meet the issue of escalation – as far as I’m aware, never before since 1945 have NATO troops fired openly on Russian troops, and vice versa, discounting proxies and little green Russians dressed in ChiCom and Libyan uniforms. It would be a dangerous precedent to set, for all sides. Regarding capability; I’m sure everyone will take defence spending more seriously now, but my concern will be whether it will be a knee-jerk reaction – my favourite example, US… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

To be honest Matt , it’s not really relevant if other nato forces were there or not. If he moved into Estonia it’s war with every nato county, article 5 is not a “ only if they attacked our troops as well clause”. We are deploying the troops we have available to make sure he knows he will be met by force and that NATO will fight. So it’s more statements of intent that tripwire.

Matt C
Matt C
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It is relevant, and at the heart of the Nato EFP strategy since 2016. The reason is, to put it cold-bloodedly, if someone were to take a country quickly and then present NATO and the world with a fait accompli, there will be markedly less public support than if Joe Public could be presented with a row of flag-draped coffins. To you no doubt Article 5 is Article 5, but far too many need a bit of blood to jolt their hearts and minds into action. We have seen a measure of this just last week – before Putin actually… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

You may be right, it’s so sad that the wests resolve is so weak that that we need to put forward our armed forces to be sacrificed to ensure we all follow what is an absolute imperative for the future of our nations…not breaking article 5.

Nations that will not fight are doomed.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

We could threaten to remove the Kalingrad enclave(Russia has no right there on German/Lithuanian/Polish territory, just stole it after WW2) if Putin doesn’t withdraw from Ukraine. Then again Estonia is very close to St Petersburg.

But it’s at least something that we demonstrate nothing else will be as easy as it seems in Ukraine. Though I believe we could do so much more there.

Stc
Stc
1 month ago

The British army is in the wrong place ! The contributers underestimate the Quality of the troops. The Russian soldiers do not look up for it to me and I think there is emerging evidence that Russian logistics are built on sand. Its like asking an English army to start bombing the Welsh; there is a lot of Jones and Davis living in England. I think we with a few allies (Poland) , US intelligence, we could have given them dealt them a bit of a lesson. With an extra V sub deployed. Ukrainians seem to be well up for… Read more »

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
1 month ago
Reply to  Stc

Agreed. The Ukrainians are really holding on and have been smart to avoid engaging Russia on an open field. They were definitely underestimated, Russia’s first wave broke against Ukraine

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Stc

Yep, hope it works out but seems like we’re bungling this one badly. We help militarily non NATO nations when it suits us. We’re basically declaring to the world that out friends can’t rely on us. Left too many high & dry in recent years.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

To be fair I don’t think we’ve given any non NATO nation remotely the quantity and quality of kit we’ve given Ukraine.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

Better late than never!

Germany to send Ukraine surface-to-air missiles and anti-tank weapons
“Germany is to send 1,000 anti-tank weapons and 500 “Stinger” surface-to-air missiles to Ukraine, the government in Berlin confirms.
The move marks a major change from its long-standing policy of banning weapon exports to conflict zones.

“In this situation, it is our duty to support Ukraine to the best of our ability in its defence against Vladimir Putin’s invading army,” says Chancellor Olof Scholz.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60517447

Matt C
Matt C
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Shutting the barn door months after the horse has bolted. This should have been done at least a year ago, to enable Ukrainian units to properly integrate, train with and skilfully employ these weapons tactically.

Always a day late and a dollar short with the bloody peaceniks.

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

I believe Ukrainian soldiers have already been trained on the stinger by the US and if anti tank weapons are javelin or NLAW then they’ve been trained on them also.

Matt C
Matt C
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

Trained sufficiently? These weapons were sent round beginning when? How long does it take our own troops to work up? To know not just how to push buttons, but to do it quickly, efficiently, and effectively – sited properly, employed in concert with other weapons, in fire and manoeuvre? Take NLAW for example. It was announced that 2,000 units were handed over in January. Let us propose 2,000 gunners were familiarised with the weapon. Should they be gifted 20,000 units tomorrow, there will still only be 2,000 gunners and 18,000 rank amateurs even if they are all armed… minus casualties… Read more »

880px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1973-001-30,_Volkssturm,_Frau_mit_Panzerfaust.jpg
David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

I don’t remember anyone predicting 7 months ago that Russia would launch an all out assault on Ukraine with 3/4 of it’s frontline Battalion groups.

Matt C
Matt C
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

It was not 7 months, it was 7 years ago that Russia launched an all-out assault on Ukraine with elements of troops drawn from every major formation from Moscow to Vladivostok. Since then NATO has seen sufficient threat to justify manning the Enhanced Forward Presence, conduct Baltic Air Policing, Black Sea transit operations, and, crucially, to train Ukrainain troops under Op Orbital – these things were not done for lack of anything else to task the army with. During this period also shots were regularly exchanged with “separatists” and Ukraine was in a de facto state of war, if not… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

No, we cannot, I agree.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt C

The Russians didn’t throw 100 battalion groups at Ukraine in 2014. Maybe I haaven’t been reading the right reports but no-one i’ve read has ever suggested this was possible/likely until the last 3 or 4 months.

Matt C
Matt C
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

I fail to see the point you’re getting at. Regardless of the number of troops involved in 2014*, Russia did bite off large chunks of the country and used its military might to force the Ukrainians to a cease-fire, and since then has been supporting the resulting low-intensity conflict in the Donbas region. Low-intensity, but nonetheless still the hottest conflict involving Russia and a NATO ally for decades. Given this backdrop, you think that NATO and the UK’s support to Ukraine from 2015 to 2021 has been completely satisfactory? By 2020 nearly 90,000 troops including several armoured brigades, squadrons of… Read more »

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Russia started the buildup of forces around Ukraine last April so it’s basically 10 months.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

Yeah but see above. If I missed a prediction of Russia throwing this size of force in order to conquer the whole of Ukraine i’ll happily put my hand up.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago

To be honest, I do not understand why so many UK personnel are in Estonia, unless it’s for a large NATO exercise? Putin may well be a 24K turdslice, but he’s not completely mental.

Other than ‘gobbing off’, he wont do anything to any NATO alliance member. There are however, some within Whitehall, and the MOD, who would like nothing better than to take on the Russian ‘problem’ once and for all, however that would be unthinkable…

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

I’ve been wondering how long certain Nato member states will sit back if things go wrong and the civilian population’s death rate increases in Ukraine.

There will be an outcry from western nations for NATO to go in and help so having plenty of kit close at hand will serve to purposes.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

It’s too late for NATO to go in, that boat has sailed. If they had gone in last week they would have stopped the invasion before it had started. Now it would mean all out war with Russia and that isnt’ going to happen.

Give it a few weeks and you will see farage on TV demonising the Ukraining refuges, which there will be millions flooding into the EU/UK soon enough.

Last edited 1 month ago by Steve
barry white
barry white
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

Steve
That last paragraph is a load of codswallop re Farage
Have you noticed that in the pics of the people fleeing the fighting there are very very few if any men
Now look at the so-called refugees who come in by boat across the channel at its the opposite ie very few women and children and 90% men of fighting age who should have stayed and fought in there own countries like the Ukrainian men of fighting age
I for one would have no problem with them coming to the UK

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  barry white

We are 2 days into the conflict, wait until Russia takes Kiev, then we will see a large amount of people trying to escape the country, unforuntely. You have to remember it didn’t take Farage very long before he was complaining about the Afgan refuges that we saved. Its depressing but instead of helping (which i think at this point would be a bad move anyway) we will be fighting over refuges with other NATO members. That is assuming Russia actually wants to take the city and isn’t just using it as a distraction to land grab in the south… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Steve
Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

It already had access to the Med.
But taking the south east coast does turn Azov into a Russian only pond.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  barry white

Agreed mate 👍

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  barry white

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion that’s the lovely system we live in. Even if they are completely wrong in most peoples eyes. We also have the freedom to challenge anyone, anytime about what they say without fear.
On another topic I’ve not seen any Ukrainian singles adverts on the site the last few days. For the last few weeks it was all I was seeing

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

I have to agree with you on that one Steve. It is too late for NATO to get involved now. What NATO has done, by sitting and doing nothing, was a shocking call to make. Normally it would come back to haunt some of these politicians who made that call, but I think they are too inept to listen.

Horse, bolts barn door… or something like that.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Tom, NATO and the west and all the western governments have been passive for a very long time, it’s what’s driving this. I don’t think Putin will cross the NATO line yet…but i think there is no doubt his type alway do cross the line in the end, they have to to support the national dialogue they create. It’s the same with China. The more the west backs away from the unthinkable the more inevitable it becomes, the more the west pushes back the less likely the unthinkable will occur. Violence I am afraid has solved more geopolitical problems than… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Jonathan
Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Again to be honest, I believe China will ‘kick something off’ with Taiwan, within the next 12 months. If anything, it will stretch NATO to breaking point, as we rely on the US far more than we should do.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Yes I think Taiwan is next I’m just not sure when, some time between 1-10 years.

John
John
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

My bets on some point in the 2030s, but with lots of troubled times leading up to it.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  John

Yes I think it will depend, I don’t think China is yet ready to go head to head the the USN even in its own back yard. But I don’t thinks it’s far off. There will be a lot of testing by China and Russia to asses NATOs political and societal willingness to fight, as well as how well their Mercantile attack on the west continues to work. If we the west re-arm to the same extent as China Russia to keep up our advantage and meet them aggressively at every move, fight back on the mercantile front I think… Read more »

peter Wait
peter Wait
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

China envies Taiwan’s high tec silicon chip manufacturing !

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  peter Wait

It’s also a critical industrial node for the west, the loss of Taiwan would be crippling to western industries and will as the military complex.

grizzler
grizzler
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

The converse arguement is that Taiwan in nothing to do with NATO,

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago
Reply to  grizzler

No, nothing to do with NATO, but a Communist dictatorship. If Putin wins in Ukraine, China will ‘go for it’ within 12-18 months.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

That depends on wether Russia gets bogged down in Ukraine.

Ukraine has not got a major airforce: Taiwan has.

Taiwan has a lot of advanced western weapons.

If shoulder launched can basically stall Russia on the ground and in the air then what would LGB’s and specific munitions do to an armoured column?

We haven’t seen any real AAW in theatre – Ceptor etc would totally alter the balance.

We can see with Russian tactics and weapons that bases could be defended by CIWS type unstallations.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
1 month ago

Numbers. It’s all about numbers. NATO has 1, 2 or 3, thousand tanks in Europe. Russia has 13,000 Tanks… not armoured vehicles, Tanks, 13,000 of them.

All about numbers.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Is it?

Or is it about rates of attrition?

If the Russian troops see Russian tanks as coffins on tracks then their utility is much diminished.

The question is when you get to that point? The Ukrainians are doing a pretty good job on that front.

Andy P
Andy P
1 month ago

Good to see that we’re not being shy with forward deployments, the numbers involved are a bit depressing but you can only piss with the cock you’ve got.

Bloke down the pub
Bloke down the pub
1 month ago

When I was a youngster, I’d read about how NATO expected a period of tension to precede any conflict which would allow time to bring up reinforcements. At the time I thought this was unrealistically optimistic but having seen recent event, perhaps they were right afterall.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

More like we need it now(or a couple of years ago!) but can’t get it for 5-10 years. Some saw this kind of thing comming but HMG has been firmly entrenched in cuts & more cuts, capability gaps, FFBNW & leaving a dysfunctional procurement & development of replacement kit fester abysmally.
We got nowhere near the assumed “prolonged period of tension” they based that useless spin upon.

Last edited 1 month ago by Frank62
Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago

Germany now supplying Stingers! If quick, with a little training these little bad boys can seriously change the atmospherics of the situation. I believe that the Cloggies also supplied some Stingers?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

It all seems so late given the time needed to train, deploy them and use properly.

Though I recall some D or was it G Squadron had barely any training down south with them and downed a Pucara.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago

They may not get well trained in its use and parameters but get a few on the air at once and a percentage will hit something low and fast mate! Either way another dimension for your Frogfoot and Hind/Hip lads to consider. Yep your right as normal mate a Pucara was downed in 82 by the SF lads with bigger all training on the system.

Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

The mujahadeen were reported to have had a 20% success rate with their use of Stinger in Afgan, downing 270 Soviet aircraft. I’m assuming Frogfoot (Frogfeet?) and Hind/Hips were a big proportion. And in addition to the Dutch and Germans, didn’t the US ask Latvia and Lithuania to pass over their stocks of Stingers to Ukraine a couple of weeks ago? I’d be surprised if the US aren’t supplying them as part of their latest arms package. I guess if Ukraine are taking them down there are less targets for NATO to bother with in future. Ukraine is claiming 14… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Richard Graham
DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yep as did the Poles and locally manufactured Groms.

Rob
Rob
1 month ago

I’m sure some of the Russian Army are good but from what I’ve seen today many are just conscript cannon fodder. Twitter & Facebook have all kinds of interviews with captured Russians. Of course social media doesn’t always reflect the truth but it did seem real to me. Tanks out of fuel, no ammunition, no food & actually some of them didn’t even know where they were. On Youtube there is some footage of a classic L shaped ambush at a cross roads with many vehicles burning. Seems to me that the Russians aren’t as professional or skilled as many… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Rob
Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

Intersting Rob, I said as much on the use of conscripts last week but was rubbished here for not knowing what I was talking about. And whilst representing about 30% of the manpower (my research) they were only used for support roles not in combat. The Russians had now switched to volunteer “contractors”. Sounded impressive but on checking I found they were really conscripts who had signed on for longer to get better pay and rations. I’d be hardly surprised either if many Russian soldiers were kept in the dark about the nature of their mission. Many might even have… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Richard Graham
peter Wait
peter Wait
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

It was reported the coscripts are paid £18 a month , not much to risk your life for !

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

Good. But send forces to repulse the invasion of Ukraine while it can be saved.
Putin puts a gun to our head, so what do the free Europe do? “Don’t shoot, we’ll not intervene!” rather than “There’s a gun on you too if you shoot.” We can’t hide behind WW3/MAD when it IS WW3 & Putin knows any nuclear use is the end of all Russia. We know it’s a bluff. Sacrificing Ukraine should not be an option.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Yes I find it so very hard that Russia has effectively used nuclear blackmail to ensure the western democracies do not fight to prevent a European democracy from being swallowed by an authoritarian dictatorship. China is watching and assessing, it will make a difference on its timetable around Taiwan after Taiwan Putin will be looking at the Baltic states….but let’s be honest if I was him I would be thinking Finland…it’s not a nato member and we don’t defend democracies unless they have signed on the dotted line with nato. To be honest I bet they have another summit (… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The Nordics would go in on Finland and I think we would follow.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Joint Expeditionary Force. We’re ready for that.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

My worry is Finland is not in NATO and we have just seen exactly how far the NATO governments will go for a none NATO member. So If we would not support Ukraine for fear of WW3 Putin will be asking himself maybe Finland is next or Moldova, tiny nation already has some Russian troops in it..swallow that one, The other option is south, secure Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia then you have an unbreakable a strategic road and rail link to Iran, work up that strategic alliance the. He will have the Northern Middle East in his pocket and can… Read more »

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The J.E.F. is outside NATO but it functions as a collective defence organisation. If Finland felt threatened it could ask for assistance. It’s not the same as NATO membership but it does mean they wouldn’t be alone. For the others Azerbaijan is closely allied with Turkey but the rest would be in the same position as Ukraine.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

The problem is the same David as the key JEF members are NATO members it’s likely to become a geopolitical quagmire. If the JEF responds and is attacked, then it’s an attack on NATO member states. I’m not sure the west has really through and had a cogent geopolitical strategy that really works for some time.

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’m far from an expert but from my reading Article 5 can only be invoked if the territory of a member state is attacked. So an attack on Finland or more accurately Finnish territory would not qualify. The J.E.F. is an attempt to provide collective defence to those states who are not NATO members but want to be a part of a mutual security organisation. It’s not ideal but it’s viewed by all as better than nothing.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Hi David, Article 5 is about an attack on any NATO member within a defined geopolitical area with is essentially the northern hemisphere. So a Russian attack on a British or NATO member military asset Anywhere within the boundaries of the North Atlantic treaty ( North Atlantic, Europe, North America, med, Middle East ect). That’s why no NATO member has sent troops into Ukraine, because although it’s not in NATO it’s in the geographical area covered by article 5 so If Russia fired on NATO troops or military assets in Ukraine or Finland (or any neutral county in the geographical… Read more »

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

We’re getting into Lawyer land now which is not in my comfort zone ! So a NATO state unit sent to a non NATO state attacked by a third non NATO state would fall within the parameters of article 5 ? Yeah i’m gonna go lye down for a bit.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Yes but only if it is within the geographical area covered in article 5. Basically is was to prevent The USSR say blowing the RN out of the high seas without it formally falling under article 5.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Half the lads on board thought the Falklands were off Scotland johnathan

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

Let’s be honest I don’t actually Think anyone had a clue where the falklands were before 1982. My dad and all my mates dads were in the FAA and I remember everyone looking it up. I Alway got the impression it was a bit of a shock to all our dads and as far as I could tell the FAA was only really keen on warmer places at the time, infact my dad and his mates were dedicated developers of the med style tan before such things as Spanish holidays were a thing, and the whole idea of sailing off… Read more »

Steve
Steve
1 month ago

The published details of how many SA80s there were in stores a few weeks ago, is looking seriously insuffient. It wasn’t enough to fully arm the armed forces and for sure wasn’t enough to do what Ukraine is doing and handing out guys to anyone that wants to fight.

The UK itself hasn’t been under serious threat for a long time, but equally it means we lack supplies to give to allies.

Rob
Rob
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

I reckon we’ve got quite a few SLRs, Police HKs and other weapons stashed away as well as SA80s.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

I was curious about the latest interview with the defense sec, they are not going to say what arms they are going to send from now on, saying for obvious reasons. I can understand not wanting to say how or when they will send them, but keeping the what part secret makes me wonder if we have run out of stuff to send.

Rob
Rob
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

Hi Steve,

The Ukrainians are not short of small arms. They have more AKs than you can shake a stick at. They need more anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles. That means we could gift more javelins, NLAWs and probably some Blowpipe missiles. At the same time we need to buy more to replenish our own stocks (not Blowpipe mind you because they are rubbish).

GMD
GMD
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

Hi Rob, if we still had Blowpipe in storage, then we would have the following newer generations of MAPADs in storage as well, Javelin (British SAM version), Starburst, which would be better to send; though I doubt we have any of those older variants left in the UK. I’m sure other posters can confirm for us.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

Javelin is an AT weapon mate.
Starburst? You mean Starstreak HVM using LMM launcher.

The TA once had 3 regiments worth of LMM Starstreak, the regiments were long cut but I assume/hope the missiles and Launchers were kept.

The army has but a single battery of LMM Starstreak now, supporting 16 AA Bde.
The rest of 12 Reg RA is comprised of Stormer carrying Starstreak HVM.

Bare bones on the AD front, we did not need them facing ragheads in the deserts and mountains.
Stupid, stupid government cuts.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

And just to outline the sheer scale of the cuts since 2004 Future Army Structures. Then – 1 Regiment Towed Rapier. ( 16RA ) 1 Regiment Tracked Rapier.( 22RA ) 1 Regiment Stormer Starstreak HVM (12RA ) 1 Regiment Starstreak HVM using LM Launchers ) ( 47 RA ) Plus 3 TA Regiments. 7 Regiments Total. The Armed Forces of the UK 2006 then listed 135 Fire Units on Stormer and 145 on LML ( lightweight Mobile Launcher ) Today? 2 Regiments! Utterly SCANDALOUS. THAT is what Journalists should be ramming down HMGs throat at EVERY opportunity and those cretins… Read more »

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Scandalous and slightly scary; if defense is not one of the number one topics from now on and a policy that wins elections I will despair.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

Defence may not have got many votes in the past, but it is the last line of defence of our existence. People expected, presumed, the Tories would look after it. On here we’re all too aware of how horrifyingly wrong that assumption is, but as soon as SHTF HMG has to reverse the slide PDQ or face extinction at the polls.

Last edited 1 month ago by Frank62
Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Frank ,1983 Torie landslide over Kinnock and the Red wedge thanks too our little venture down south 2nd carrier rushed into service sept82 3rd carrier Ark Royal brought forward All surface Ships up armed with 20mm and twin30s ,phalanx super Rboc chaff Elsa 8mins breathing hood very awkward juggling act but boy did we feel better going to sea

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

That light AAA didn’t last though. Shipboard SAMs are better than then but the only Lt AAA spot on our scorts is taken by a bushmaster v slow firing gun suitable for shooting up skiffs but useless against air attack except v slow moving coppers that stray too close. The Tory “triumph” of the Falklands never needed to happen had they not planned such cuts that convinced the Argies that we were withdrawing interest & defence from the Falklands & the capability to challange a fait accomplis. A quick deployment of a small naval force could’ve nipped it in the… Read more »

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Thanks Frank, and thanks tò Galtiare if he hadn’t been so impatient and waited John knott would have swung the axe and Fearless and Intrepid would have been razorblades and we’d have had to go cap in hand to the yanks they offered us an iwo class the Chilean said we could use the Norfolk which we had just sold them when we went back down in 83 we had lost all the workboat skippersLaunch and our seaboat , gained 2 ribs 2x 20mm Gamb01s 2x20mm 7alphas and 2xtwin 30mm skipper wasn’t happy losing his huntress

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Hi Daniele, I believe we used the Javelin name before the AT weapon, the British Manpads where in this order:
From 1975 Blowpipe, from 1984 Javelin, from 1993 Starburst, from 1997 Starstreak. I totally agree we are woefully under resourced in air defense. Not in quality but in numbers. That surely has to change now?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

Well I never. Blow me down with a feather.
I looked both up and you’re right.
Was not in service long and also looks like it uses the LML too.

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Yes, and (warning rant approaching) likely all disposed of and not stored away for a raining day. A massive waste of what could have been ready to hand supplies for Ukraine, yes I know there would have been a cost of maintenance and storage, but still the waste (rant complete).

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

I assume though these things have a shelf life? Like other munitions. They are mid 90s!
Not like putting Tanks in CHE storage.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

And nothing wrong with a rant, some of mine from years back were ridiculous! I’ve “mellowed” with age…😏

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

😀

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Probably, but I would guess they would deteriorate over time, from say 98% to lower numbers. I can’t imagine they just stop working at the expiry date. Maybe some minor maintenance could keep their effectiveness rate up. I don’t know enough about it. Academic now, as they are all gone.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago

Just flicked through the posts I remember when we used too carry a platoon of 42 lads that they carried the Car Gostav 84mm

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

Blowpipe is total rubbish. You’d be better off giving 10% of the number of Stingers. Giving them a few hundred Stingers will change the balance of things as the Russians won’t be able to use a lot of air assets freely. They will be forced to go high level and given that lack of highly accurate tactics displayed would essential mean that air power was for show rather than precision take downs. Even just the Russians knowing Stingers are in theatre changes the calculus. In our usual negative way we haven’t said that UK had the correct weapon in quantity:… Read more »

GMD
GMD
1 month ago

Hi Supportive Bloke, what about the other pre Starstreak Manpads, where they any good?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  GMD

I don’t want to be too specific on here for obvious reasons.

They all had their uses let’s put it that way. They were all better than Blowpipe.

But if the Ukrainians have Javlin + NLAWS + Stinger in quantity: why complicate things?

The US is openings it’s stockpiles and they will have replenishment contracts in place.

I’m sure Sweden will be manufacturing NLAWS to replenish stocks.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

Unfortunately it would take time to make more and time is something Ukraine doesn’t have.

farouk
farouk
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

Evening Rob: The Dutch and Germans have revealed they are going to send arms and ammo to Ukraien. Dutch: 200 Stinger missiles and 50 Panzerfaust 3″ anti-tank weapons with 400 reloads Germans: 500 “Stinger” missiles and 1,000 anti-tank weapons which I would presume are Panzerfaust 3″ From what I can see the Ukrainians decided long ago that if push came to shove, they would leave teams behind the lines in which to strike rear echalons and supply lines. A lot of the videos of destroyed Russian convoys appear to substiate that point, https://twitter.com/akdenizpolitik/status/1497591920360673281?s=20&t=f1TeH71Bolqow5cgJzYs6g Its as if they are going withb… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by farouk
Rob
Rob
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Hi Farouk.

Yes that is Loggie column of fuel, bridges and recovery vehicles completely destroyed. More of the same would be great because once the thaw sets in the Russians are going to have this massive armoured force stuck in the mud and, if the Ukrainians can do there stuff properly, no resupply or engineering support. That could, hopefully, lead to large scale surrenders of their forward troops and end Putin’s war of choice in ignominy.

Richard Graham
Richard Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Ah Panzerfaust and Stinger, old friends of Russian Armies of the past. I remember the impact CIA supplied Stingers in the hands of Mujahadeen (they had a 20% success rate but downed nearly 270 Soviet aircraft apparently), can imagine what they could do to Russian aircraft if available to the Ukrainian lads in quantity. As for Panzerfaust…Hope its not the WWII version 😀

farouk
farouk
1 month ago
Reply to  Richard Graham

Richard wrote:

 I remember the impact CIA supplied Stingers in the hands of Mujahadeen (they had a 20% success rate but downed nearly 270 Soviet aircraft apparently), can imagine what they could do to Russian aircraft if available to the Ukrainian lads in quantity.

Heres a short vid of a Hind (Either a Mil 24 or Mil 35) getting on the wrong end of a MANPAD, yes the vid states Stinger, but lets not forget the Poles handed over quite a few Groms

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Ukrainians were very sensible to use their fives to do ambush tactics rather than pitched battles.

The Ukrainians confidence will have been boosted by the success of those tactics.

MLAWS seems to be working with some very very brave Ukrainians operating it.

Max Jones
Max Jones
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Stingers are great.

Panzerfausts are good too but based on my limited knowledge of them, are they that much of a game changer? They are essentially just RPGs right (which I would assume Ukraine has plenty of). Still helpful of course but it seems like a relatively minor thing.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

We haven’t run out. Ben Wallace chaired a virtual conference on Friday night about supplying weapons and munitions to the Ukraine, with the U.K. helping to organise it all.

Steve R
Steve R
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

Wasn’t the amount still more than our total military personnel, though? Meaning more than one SA80 for each serviceman/woman?

And it’s not like RAF ground crew or 90% of RN sailors would need one, really.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve R

I thought it was less than the total in the army, let alone all service men and reserves, but might be wrong.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve R

Morning Steve sorry for this late post I agree with your sentence on RAF and 90% of RN personnel their was an unfortunate incident on an A class on a visit to Southampton when the Casing Sentry went Tonto in the Control rm killing an officer and others injured Small arms and Matelots somewhat of a recipe for either Deliberate actions or NDs galore I’ve witnessed quite a few Different to the Army Marines, and RAFReg all have personal weapons , Matelots just grab and go

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

The Ukrainians really are defending their nation with their all. Just seen the video the the man trying to stop an armoured formation with just his body. So many brave people.

David Flandry
David Flandry
1 month ago

This is welcome. Problem is the UK Army has been cut so much there is not much left. You cannot base policy, and budgets, on wishful thinking. Reactivate
several thousand troops now.

John
John
1 month ago

I understand the rationale behind the Deployment, am interested in the actual numbers of gun wielding squaddies and tanks. At a guess I’d say 8 tanks, always struggle a bit with the troop numbers.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  John

What fires they have will be important as well. I get the feeling Russia takes a lot of notice of that element.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  John

There’s 2 BGs there I think? So maybe around 24 Tanks with 30 to 40 Warrior, up to 12 AS90 in 2 batteries, then add some dozens of CVRT and 432s, 6 Stormer, Titan and Trojan dets, CRRVs in the REME, and so on.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

My numbers may be out of date, but detailing my thinking on that a bit more and what a BG comprises – What is in a BG? Half an AI Bn ( That is 2 AI Coys +supports ) 1 Sqn RAC Challenger2. RA SPG Battery. RA AD Battery. RAC Recc Sqn. RE Armd Eng Sqn ( Titan/Trojan/Terrier/432 ) REME CS Coy. ( CRRV/ Warrior.432 ) RA GMLRS Battery ( 9 GMLRS? ) Each BG made up of 1 squadron of Ch2 ( 12 ) plus a few HQ element. 2 Companies of Warrior. I recall AI Bns had 9… Read more »

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
1 month ago

Hello Daniele, The Royal Welch were originally supposed to replace the Royal Tanks regiment who have been out in Estonia for about 3 to 4 months already. Which poses a number of questions, Who will replace the Royal Tank regiment, are these deployments going to be rotated every 6 months or is it stag-on stop-on. But most of all we only have about 4 deployable BG’s at the moment, so we have half of the British army already deployed and we are still only at the stage of trading insults, Just wondering what we have to up the anti when… Read more »

Louis
Louis
1 month ago

Given US army regular units are deployed for one year every three years on a preplanned deployment (Afghanistan/Iraq), I don’t see the problem as in future soldier structure there are five Boxer battalions and two CR3 regiments. All of these units have three sabre companies so a 1/3 deployment would have two tank squadrons of 18 CR3 and five infantry companies of 14 warriors and 2 battalion HQ’s
Currently in Estonia there are 2 battalion HQ’s, two tank squadrons and max 3 infantry companies so I don’t see the issue about not being able to sustain this.

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

It is true we will have more to deploy in the future, unfortunately we can only hope we can get to those “future” deployable situations in about 10 years but today we only have 4 deployable armoured brigades so with 2 already deployed it not looking good for the next few years.

Louis
Louis
1 month ago

Units split between both of the battle groups are: Ajax and dreadnought squadrons of the RTR. C company Royal Welsh Engineers from 26 regiment 28/143 battery RA These are not all units they are just the ones I am aware of. The stated strength of a RAC armoured squadron is 18 tanks split into four platoons of four. For an infantry company it is 14 warriors in three platoons of four warriors. There are only three infantry companies in 1 Royal Welsh so there is a maximum amount of three infantry companies deployed. On deployment RA batteries usually increase from… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Louis
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

Thanks Louis. Interesting, I had the Ch2 strength of the armoured regiment of 4×12 Tanks Sqns plus HQ Tanks.

Yes, for a moment I thought you meant only one of RW 3 infantry coys had deployed. Is the whole Bn deployed or just 2 of 3 coys as I thought plus elements of FS Coy/HQ Coy/Echelon?

Louis
Louis
1 month ago

They used to be 4×14 with 4 platoons of 3 but moving to 3 squadrons instead of 4 reduced administrative personnel whilst only reducing tanks per regiment by 2.
C company deployed with RTR in the initial deployment so the remaining two probably will have deployed now as part of 1 Royal Welsh but only one may have deployed ( leaving both battlegroups each with one armoured squadron and one armoured infantry company, plus supporting elements and allied formations- I know a Dutch company was integrated into RTR battlegroup)

Steve
Steve
1 month ago

It would be interesting to know exactly how many ch2 /warriors have been deployed. Guessing the government is keeping that quiet as they don’t want the number compared to russian tank numbers in the media.

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

10 of each. Plus a unit of Land Ceptor

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

That a depressingly low number. I realise there isn’t many left but surely we could send a lot more than that.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

It’s logistics not numbers, you can’t supply many tanks in Estonia. If you send a large part of the force their they will get cut off. That’s why we keep the tanks in Germany.

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Especially as we only have 80-90 tank transporters overall.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Fair point, but how many in Germany?

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

Probably only 20-30 max 40.

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 month ago

Just read on Politico Europe that the EU wants to coordinate aid to Ukraine. What a bunch of self promoting, cover their arse shysters!

I’d also put Macron and Germany in that category in this affair……

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Agree Macron has custard all over his face after his “Im the big statesman of Europe” trip to Moscow to meet mad arse Purin. Then coming back to europe saying hes acheived reassurances of no intention to invade Ukraine. “Peace in our time” my arse Macron youve were played and now look like a damn fool.
On that note what exactly are our friends and allies the French doing? Bugger all. Their commitment to Nato forward battle groups and reassurance missions / air policing is much less than UKs. Hell even Canada seem to be commiting more support.

farouk
farouk
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Mr Bell wrote:

Agree Macron has custard all over his face after his “Im the big statesman of Europe” trip to Moscow to meet mad arse Purin.

Due to numerious stories about how Macron leans more towards men than women , I don’t think that was Custard


Opera Snapshot_2022-02-27_090244_www.gaystarnews.com.png
James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Lol he definitely loves a baguette!

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Maybe that’s why Putin insisted on that extra long table !

Jack K
Jack K
1 month ago

If the worse case scenario happened, and we had to face off against Russia troops, how well would we do? I don’t have much knowledge in this area, but I get the impression we have some of the best trained troops and know-how in the world when it comes to warfighting, but unfortunately it seems as if a lot of our equipment is outdated, and we don’t have much in the way of numbers. I’m hoping the recent events will wake up our politicians, and lead to decisions to increase our defence spending. It looks to me as if a… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Jack K

We would do fine. Initially we would cause the Russians a real headache and disproportionate casualties until attrition and a lack of reserves came into play. Our armed forces are hollowed out by too many defence cuts. Too much FFBNW. Too many capability gaps. Quantity has a quality of its own and we lack quantity. We need to put defence budget up. Cut social care and state pensions if you have too. Scrap pensions escalator as its unjustified when everyone else is getting below inflation pay rises. We need 3.5-4% defence budget. Armed forces need to increase personnel numbers 20,000-30,000back… Read more »

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Outstanding! But Johnsonski will never allow it

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

“Cut social care and state pensions”??? You do realise the poorest(whom those cuts would hit hardest-few have any savings) have already been hit hardest paying for austerity caused by rich people’s wild speculation? Of course the nations forces have been run down criminally & needs a major uplift, but why is it never those at the top who bear the resonsability their huge wealth comes with. You may see social care & state pensions as annoying expenses but for millions they are absolute lifelines & for many the value of them has been steadily eroded over the years.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Yes but we desperately need 12 armoured divisions on the north Germany plane and another 12 in Dorset just in case so you need to tell your granny she can’t get her hip operation because people in Germany can’t be arsed to pay for their own defence.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

My grannies died in the 1970s. Appreciate the humour though.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

400 million people in Europe and until very recently the UK and Greece where the only ones spending the 2% of GDP on defence. Why should people in the UK have to give up social spending to protect countries in Europe that can’t be arsed to spend money. Our military is easily able to defend the UK and easily able to defend Europe or anywhere else on the planet with NATO and other allies.