Irish media has reported that a Russian submarine, positioned near cables on the approaches to Cork Harbour, was “chased off” by a British helicopter and warship because Ireland doesn’t have the ability to do so itself.
Writing in the Irish Examiner, Sean O’Riordan reported that the submarine was “just outside the 12-mile limit, so it didn’t break any international laws, but military sources have indicated that such events around the Irish coast are becoming more common”.
Details of the Russian underwater operation and subsequent British intervention, which took place six months ago, have just emerged.
Sources are cited in the article as saying that as darkness approached, a British helicopter deployed sonar equipment into the water near an unidentified submarine. This action was followed by the arrival of a Royal Navy anti-submarine frigate to monitor the submarine, compensating for the Irish naval ships’ lack of underwater surveillance technology.
“Almost all of the Irish navy’s ships had sonar between the 1960s and 1980s and the former flagship vessel, LÉ Eithne, had it until the 1990s when it became defunct and deemed too expensive at the time by the Department of Defence to replace.”
The report also notes that Russian military activities have tested British air defences near Irish shores.
Russia’s use of older Soviet-era Tu-95 ‘Bear Bombers’ has been largely unmonitored by Ireland due to the Air Corps’ lack of high-speed jets or aircraft with sufficient altitude capability. Ireland’s last fighter jets, the Vampire jets, were in service until the 1950s.
Cat amongst the Pigeons article!
Does Schrapps read UKDJ? Maybe he should read good articles like this. Is he going to follow Wallace and get another £15bn for the underfunded equipment programs? Not unless it furthers his political career
He’ll be gone soon. I’d worry about Healey more than shapps given the long lead nature of defence programs.
true, but the republics refusal to defend itself is more than a bit controversial to be honest….I don’t have an issue with neutrality, but the republics government has been living in a fairy land of denial for a long time around defence…which is a bit paradoxical really when you consider that its very powerful neighbour has had historic tendencies to invade now and then and only ( reluctantly mind) admitted that the republic was a separate nation 100 years ago…most small nations sitting next to a large powerful nation tend to be a bit more cogent of defence..even if that nation is now a friend…even Switzerland has an armed forces of around 120,000 on active service and around 80-90 fast jest…and you cannot even get to Switzerland without passing through friendly countries…
There are historic and economic reasons as to why the DF never got funding, nowadays its mainly Finance and DPER just refusing to fund anything they can get away with.
indeed, I think there does need to be a bit a a rethink, the republic is not a poor county it’s GDP is 20% greater than Denmark but Denmark spends around 3 billion dollars a year on defence and Ireland only 1 billion. ( infact the republic dedicated more thought to defence when it was a really poor county).
There has been a rethink, the whether its actually funded is another question of course. But there’s more to it, I mean gdp is fairly pointless to use for Ireland, GNI is more accurate. Also we spent more as a percentage as I pointed out in the Troubles, in terms of actual money it was far less than even current spending.
I agree J. I think Ireland should invest more in defence, like we should. However, that is an issue for them to decide, and I respect that.
My interest in our peripheral involvement is due to our own needs re UKADR, access to airspace, cables, and so forth, for our own defence needs.
I just enjoy reading the daft anti Irish comments that some come out with in response to such articles, and Marks passionate defence of his country. And sure enough, he’s here.
Not sure its a defence really, I mean I’ve made it clear its not a state I’m happy with, but I just can’t help myself when articles pop up, though the daft comments don’t help.
The article has issues (kind of like any article on defence matters these days), but I wonder who leaked it and why? Coverage of defence issues has increased in Ireland over the last few years and the Examiner has been good for the Navy given its local nature but still wondering if there was an agenda?
Sorry, my wording was off. No worries.
Its grand, as you say no worries.
Fully agree Daniele, it’s not just about protecting Irish air space and territorial water. Given the close geographically alignment the UK has, we are also protecting our interests. The bigger picture here is to protect and secure infrastructure that connects Europe, UK and the US such as cabling and shipping routes open.
Cheers,
George
As others have said Neutrality is fine, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to spend significantly to maintain a credible defence. Just look at Switzerland, neutral for centuries but knows that you still have to be able to defend your neutrality
To be fair though. Wasn’t it The Scotti from Ireland who invaded the North of Britain and gave their name to us native Britons up there, creating division in Britain before from Britain invading Ireland? Along with the Romans. What I am saying is, as a massively invaded island, we need reparations from Ireland and modern Italy, Denmarck, Germany and France I guess are required. Ten trillion quid?
Don’t forget the slaves the Romans took away and the various invasions from the Germanic tribes, Norsemen and the Barbary pirates that set back our development by hundreds of years. I’d say you are talking hundreds of Quadrillions to keep these sunlit islands in the manner…..
Aye the once proud Irish nation sold out long ago.its a lot bigger than just defence or their political class living in la la land they are completely dictated to by the EU ,told what to do in nearly every facet of life.
As Kool N the Gang put it the Irish people have been “Misled” ….. they need to invest in their sovereignty and their defence.
🏴🇬🇧
That’s a strange fantasy but sure whatever floats your boat.
No fantasy Amigo don’t you watch the news? Look at the recent riots
The ROI does what the EU tells it regardless of what the people think. Perhaps if You did get Connor McGregor as President you would do alright.
As for defence spending I don’t need to say anything it’s unequivocal.
Aye the “truth” …Incontrovertible malice may attack it , ignorance May deride it but in the end there it is.
🏴🇬🇧
The recent riot was mainly due to long standing problems will policing inner city Dublin, the same attack that sparked it happens virtually weekly and mainly from Irish people (for examples, see the attack on American tourists last year, and British ones, or students, all carried out by Irish teenager/20 year olds)
As to McGregor, showing a bit of lack of knowledge there aren’t you, the position of President is non political, they have no power in running the country, nor does he have any support to actually run.
Sorry bro but that aside president ,PM whatever ,the lack of knowledge you claim the ROI does exactly what the EU dictates. I’m afraid is a smokescreen it is you who are are out of touch with what the average Joe Blow wants. I say this coming from a position of authority as the EU still is dictating what happens in the U.K. despite the Democratic will of it’s people having been made known,
The ROI is forced to take so called economic migrants in unparalleled numbers regardless of the wishes of its citizens the same shite as is being perpetrated upon the British people in the name of nothing to do with us gov we can’t do anything about it .
🏴🇬🇧
I think Ireland probably have the right idea though, they are clearly not going to invest in anti sub frigates so why not let the UK do it for them. On the bit about defending themselves against a powerful neighbour, it would probably be a waste of time and money as they’re not going to spend anywhere near enough to make a difference
Which powerful neighbour could we defend ourselves against short of a North Korea style full military program?
To be honest here Mark..never ever say never, the sad truth is nations change, sometimes very quickly..we tend to think of our western democracies, with their enlightened self interest as immutable..but they are actually very young things with our less democratic past still something that is only just out of living memory. I am a patriot and proud of the UKs parliamentary democracy….but I know it could fall into something more sinister..if the right set events the right pressures occurred, Ireland could find itself next door to a rather nasty nation…do I think it would happen no..could it yes…..we were best friends with Germany..then had two world wars fighting Germany..now we are friends again…things change in geopolitics and if you cannot put up a credible defence you are simply a victim of geopolitics be that good or bad not masters of of your own destiny….
But the calculation that Finance made in 1922 still holds in that case. There is no credible way a nation of 5 million can offer a defence against a hostile nuclear armed nation of 65+ million right next door. If the UK ever did become such a hostile force, what exactly force levels do you think could deter them?
In reality deterrence needs to be less than one would imagine, unless something is totemic to a nation and then it’s very very difficult to deter ( infact possibly even close to impossible)..but small neurtal nations have survived next to unpleasant large neighbours for a long time by:
1) making sure the don’t create a totemic issue
2) being useful, The classic is the buffer type state or service provider state.
3) having just enough military power that the larger state is forced to deploy a lot of its armed forces to overwhelm….making it inconvenient enough that it’s not worth bothering about unless it’s a major issue.
4) the final bit is having friendly relations with other nations that make it inconvenient from a diplomatic point of view.
but it generally all depends on at least having some from of credible military force…as the other small neutral nations alway did….Finland managed to stay neutral using all of the above methods …and not be invaded buy the Soviet Union ( that had the conventional military power to eat the whole of Europe alive for a good portion of the 20c).
Your example of Switzerland having fast jets is true but it was discovered when a passenger jet needed escorting due to an onboard hijack threat that the Swiss Air Force didn’t have air defence coverage outside office hours!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swiss-air-force-ethiopian-airlines-hijacking-office-hours
But yes considering Ireland has a healthy economy they should be able to afford a navy and air force that can maintain their “neutrality” and not need the UK to step in – this disproving defence neutrality.
Before you know it Putin Might decide to annexe Eire and like Ukraine, UK and NATO wouldn’t officially be able to help.
That just reminded me of a great ( if slightly bonkers ) novel about the invasion of Ireland by Libya and the PLO…called dark rose if I remember rightly ( I read it about 25 years ago)..totally tonto story but fun read.
Very astute DM. 👌👍🕳️
Hey DM- How have you been coping?
Better than I feared mate. D Day is tomorrow, 1245 Guildford Crematorium. 😞
Hope the ceremony goes well Mate. Things will get better with time
Thank you Chris.
The Russians do seem to be snooping around Ireland a fair bit s since Ukraine war broke out .Can Ireland refit sonar back on their vessels maybe 🤔 has RN very stretch .Has for Vampire jets is not better than what their have now 🇮🇪 🤗
This is the irony isn’t it they were better equipped 40 years ago than they are now. Also proves if further proof were ever needed that being neutral is no safe option in the World of Russian Imperialism and indeed increasingly Chinese. If and it will depend on other factors, you basically fawn over Russia submissively you just may be left with a modicum of freedom as long as you don’t geographically matter but hey dare criticise or dare be anywhere that they covet and it really doesn’t matter how independent and neutral you are you will still be subject to Russias ambitions I’m afraid. And that’s only going to get worse as it becomes al are you for us or against us. In reality here this is all about pushing the Irish into being more anti British by the thinking that Britains anti Russian stance endangers Ireland so that Ireland blames Britain not poor old misunderstood Russia. Sadly with some this tactic works. All a bit like Anglo Spanish relations at the times of the Armada.
I don’t think this has anything to do with an anti-British stance at all. It is purely down to the Irish Government being reluctant to spend on defence. It would rather (like most governments including the UK) spend money on things that make it look good rather than things it actually needs…
Being Neutral is all good and well (apart from the fact that it prevents you from standing up to evil), But the need for defence is still there as evil dictators often do not care about whether you are neutral or not… Now you can save money as you do not need an offensive capability as such, but you certainly still need a defensive one.
It also has a large amount to do with the economic reality of the Irish state up until the 90s effectively, ie a tiny economy can’t fund much of anything. During the Troubles the budget was over 1.5% gdp for example but you were only talking about a few hundred million pounds.
Now its just inertia and historic ill will from Finance.
I’m not sure it has anything to do with an anti British Anti NATO stance…the republic is a happy neutral..the issue is neutral nations still have to defend themselves or they will be pray to stronger nations..neutral does not mean you will be left alone.The republic has a toxic relationship with its armed forces that needs to change.
It’s not “toxic” it’s indifference, toxic would require the average punter/politician to be even vaguely aware of the DF.
Can I have some of yours.
Russia endangers, bwahahaha.
Being neutral means that some other bu**er protects your territory whilst you make your country rich.
There is reportedly a plan to refit the P60’s with some sonar capability, but even then its going marginal at best. As for the Vampire’s, thats just the writer not having a clue, they were trainer variants themselves with little more capabilities than what we have now other than having a jet engine.
I don’t really think the republic needs much capability to be honest..but it does need to be able to police and intercept air, surface and sub surface targets…something as minimal as a flight of second hand 16s would do…I’m sure if asked HMG would willingly hand over the keys to a fight of batch one typhoons.The world is full of degenerate nutters both state and none state actors. it would only take a UN peace keeping operation to get on wrong side of one of these groups of evil gits and you become a target.
That would be the suggested LoA3, at best something that would be the better part of two decades away even if their was political buy in for it, which there isn’t.
I thought the P60’d were laid up and only the 4 P70’s were active.
I am originally from Galloway in SW Scotland and I can actually understand the reluctance of Irish Governments to fund armed Defence. We also have the same sectarian divides and there is just too much bad History !
But that doesn’t mean you can’t provide for your own situational awareness and feed that into your Friendly Neighbours.
I do think there are a few small steps Eire could take to improve things.
If you want something a bit more offensive try buying half a dozen AW101, they are perfectly capable of scaring the …….. out of a Submarine.
Nah, the P70’s are the two second hand New Zealand boats.
In terms of your suggestions, the radar procurement is now formally on the cards over the next 5 years but what it is, what coverage the system will have and whether or not it will connect to are all unknowns right now.
Buying a couple of second hand Support Rigs straight up hits the manpower issue, any change in that will go towards the current hulls getting back to sea, not any new hulls.
Long term, we are an “observer” in the EPC project, most likely in view of the relatively short life left in the P50s, but whether or not the Government/departments would be willing to go for a “full fat” ASW capable variant is a whole other question.
Given the routing of so many internet cables south of Ireland across the Atlantic, I’m not surprised.
Thanks Daniel, I was wondering what Russia would be interested in to snoop so blatently of Eire.
Still a bit rich us criticising Eire when we are filing to invest in our own forces adequately. We only have 7 or8 ASW FFGs ourselves.
Meh, they’ve always done this back into the Cold War, just no internet for people to notice it.
Looking into it I see Cork(Haulbowline Is) has a navy base. Eire has 2 MPA, 6 OPVs(4in reserve, 2 active) but no ASW capability.
MSAs not MPAs, the 235s are sort of hybrids that CASA kludged together for us, they are currently being replaced with 2 295s but they aren’t fitted for ASW either currently.
As for the OPVs, DOD was brutal in setting the specs for them, there is plans for some sort of Sonar upgrade for them but I haven’t seen any details of that yet.
I have no idea what fit out the Casa 295s have in irish service, so ta.
This was disappointing when I found out that the 295s are essentially ‘sight hounds’.
Upgrading them to full ASW and torpedos is something that the Chief of defence could push for. He is an airman after all. 🙂
They do have the fittings for pylons, but I can’t see him pushing for it. Right now there’s still many bun fights over what changes might happen due to the Commissions report.
Seán‘s job is a tough one and very frustrating. Most chiefs from other countries have similar fights but Ireland is class all its own.
Indeed, the Army being the Army.
Indeed. Was contemplating issue of Lakenheath. US has combat capability there equal to half the RAF. Back in day it was +/- 400 miles from East Germany. Now it’s +/- 1000 miles from eastern Belarus. UK should be able to take care of its neck of the woods. Shouldn’t US Lakenheath capability not move further east to Denmark or western part of Germany. As for Irish, woulnt say 3 x Q400 / SAAB swordfish MPA aircraft combinations not provide effective economic zone MPA and anti sub capability in a single package.
I used to wash USAF laundry from Lakenheath & Mildenhall, among others at a now defunct Initial plant in Lowestoft in the 90’s. USAF has other airbases in Germany & probably ready access to others close to the Russia/Belaurus borders. Plus in flight refueling gets them there if needed anyway. Defence in depth for Europe is not a bad thing.
The Irish air force has just started replacing its 2 CASA 235 MPA aircraft with up to date 295’s but with no ASW capability. The solution could be to add ASW kit to them, but only IF & when they decide they want/have to. Same goes for ASW capability for their OPVs. It remains to be seen if there is any sobering up of their attitude to their defence with Russian subs lurking near their harbours. Maybe it alarms us far more than it does them.
Cheers Frank. Appreciate comments.
The Russians aren’t interested in Ireland. They are using it as a safish place to hide.
They are interested only in the Faslane base.
We must keep their boats out of the Irish sea.
If they ant to get to Faslane, hiding off the South Coast of Ireland seems pretty far to go.
Maybe there fancy a drink ,everyone one knows the Irish like a good knees up .🤗 🍺
It depends on which way the Vanguards go when deploying. Could be more than one Russian boat.
Why risk the relatively confined waters of the Irish Sea and a Fishing incident when Faslane has better access above NI?
They would transit the Irish Sea on the surface before diving some where off the bottom of Ireland.
Have they ever done that? Seems a very long time for the SSBNs to be surfaced?
It depends largely on the threat picture, but in short yes they have.
The idea is to get into the diving position before sunrise/after any satillites have passed. So as said sun comes up, said sea is empty!
Cheers.
Fascinating mate. I’d heard of SSN in the Irish sea but unaware bombers had gone that way.
It’s not the usual route granted, that’s hang a right at Arran, past the Kintyre peninsular and out through the N Channel. But, occasionally needs must, we had a developing intel situation with a OOA deployer coming south, not only did we need to get out, but the returning bomber had to get in. We went a day or so early trundled down the Irish sea and went on our merry way. Returning SSBN back alongside, job done.
Thanks for this.
Indeed. Not much to be gleaned about Irish military infrastructure NATO passage and sub sea comms infrastructure will be their focus….but Ireland has an obligation to do more. Within their EZ.
Unlike Switzerland and previously before applying to join NATO Sweden, Ireland does not take its neutrality seriously. I mean who would want to invade Ireland after all? However, that does not detract from the fact, that the Republic should be at least more proactive in monitoring not only its airspace and EEZ, but also the seas as well.
It could quite easily afford to place a long range radar on its West coast. Which would at least find and track Russian Tu-95s etc flying at altitude who aren’t transmitting on IFF or ADS-B.
The seas, will be a lot more expensive to monitor, especially sub-surface. As that means not only do you need more than one ship, with the right equipment to patrol the EEZ. But also trained anti-submarine warfare personnel. Failing that you could sow the seabed with fixed sonar arrays. But again, you will need trained personnel to be listening to what the arrays detect.
Until, the Republic decide to put more resources into its military. It will always be beholden to the UK to provide the means to police its EEZ.
I’ve often wondered DB, Hi there, why the EEZ Republic of Ireland cannot be protected and supported by the said EEZ partners 🇫🇷, Spain 🇪🇸 et al.? 🤔🕳️.
It would be… But remember it is an economic club not a defence club as such. However there is little doubt that other EU countries would help defend it if needed. I mean even NATO would likely defend it due to the vulnerability of the UK and other members if it was to fall into enemy hands.
Hi Lee1, not to start a heated argument but, the RoI can’t even service their imaginary and controversial sea border.. 🙃
Whats controversial about the sea border? Other than annoying NI fishermen and the boundary disputes of Rockall and Lough Foyle?
I don’t know, you inform me why it is, or isn’t controversial. Apart from the fact it wasn’t needed until now..🤔👍
Oh that, that’s an internal U.K. issue, not the Republics waters. As to why it’s needed, we aren’t in a common trade area anymore.
You’d rely on the EU countries to defend anything…..because I wouldn’t.
There is only the French with any real capability or know-how.
The UK will do it due to it’s own self interest. We’ve been doing it for years.
Yes we will. Obviously that is always going to happen. My answer was to a hypothetical question. Plus There are a few EU countries with Naval capabilities. I mean Sweden has a reasonable Naval capability, Italy also does along with obviously France. Greece also has capability. But yes we are always likely to defend Ireland as it benefits us to do so.
There has been a Fisheries patrol ship on and off for a year or so, as for something more serious, I think there was discussions with the French in regards to Air Policing, they told the delegation to go talk to London reportedly.
Hey Mark, Gallic and Gaelic discussion! Sounds like the start of a boring 💤 tv soap. 😴🕳️.
Did they shrug their shoulders at the same time – uttering Mon Dieu.
Possibly, also maybe gave us the number of the French defence companies…
The Radar is supposedly on the procurement list (wait for it…) but anything more than that is unlikely.
I would point out however if it was outside the 12 mile limit, so technically had as much right as any of the Western warships that have operated within the EEZ
Fingers crossed then!
Hi Mark, I think that Ireland is caught between a rock and a hard place wrt this article. Trying to provide such a capability even in basic terms is a very expensive undertaking especially given what you say about the state of affairs/economics in the country.
I would think that the best potential solution should the powers to be see fit to progress, would be some form of alliance if you will, with either NATO or the EU. Dont believe not being a member would be to much of an issue given the countries location. Indeed if you look at the JEF membership the only countries missing for whatever the reason are Poland, Germany and yourselves.
Clearly Ireland has issues around all of this, but, at some point they are going to have to take a leap into the unknown and join the rest of us for better or worse.I just cant see everyone else letting Ireland sit on the side lines without some form of contribution to the safety and maintenance of all the underwater infrastructure that passes through your TW/EEZ, if things worsen.
Ireland is now the 3rd richest country in the world by gdp per capita, they can afford it.
True. And in the short term at least, it’s not going to get much better. Next year is an election year in Ireland and the parties will be falling over themselves promising tax cuts, more money for hospitals, schools, roads, housing etc. Defence will barely get a mention beyond increasing remuneration to serving personnel. It’s likely as well that the next government will be substantially made up of Sinn Fein, a party very much left of centre that has a long standing antipathy towards NATO, PESCO, and any force structure that isn’t UN mandated. There are plans somewhere for the Naval Service to acquire a new multi role vessel (s), but at the moment, they are just plans. Fast air is at least 10 years away even with the best will. As Mark has said earlier, the Department of Finance is not receptive to Defence matters, it’s an institutional thing going back many years.
The MRV has been in procurement hell for nearly two decades now, and DPER/Finance are strongly against it, whether or not it ever happens though, the intention was for out of EEZ operations, the design has no more ASW capabilities than anything else in the fleet at the moment, though would be able to sustain helicopter operations (though finance has said no to that as well).
Yeah. I did see a recent article somewhere about a European Multi Role Vessel project in which Ireland was an observer nation. Given recent developments I wouldn’t be surprised if some form of sonar/ sub surface capability has been added. But as you rightly allude to , finance, finance and finance.
Those are different projects just to be clear. We have taken up observer status on the new European Patrol Corvette project that’s part of PESCO, and maybe they will replace the P50’s (who even before the crew crisis they were aging quicker than expected).
The MRV/EPV project dates back to the mid 00’s post our UN operations in East Timor, Liberia to be a support ship/medical support/transport for Irish UN missions. At the time we almost bought a Absalon class for the role but then the Crash happened and ever since the Navy have been told no. Thats why the dutch have had their Amphibs over on sales trips the last couple of years.
Sound, thanks Mark.
An MRV armed similar to the Absalon class and 3 or 4 of the European patrol corvettes with a balance of ASUW,AAW and ASW would be a ideal goal for the service
Crew complements on all of these vessels are at 100 or lower.
The AC could also get 4 or 5 ASW capable helos
These are not impossible goals but I already would see the homeless and health lobby groups with their arguments saying that this defence funding would rob from them
These groups have to realize that any government (Ireland especially) can walk and chew gum at the same time for funding all sorts of commitments towards social, economic, judicial and defence spending without a serious impact to one another.
I’d agree with you that such a force structure wouldn’t be impossible, but you are likely looking at trebling the establishment of the Navy if not more, so all the usual actors would do anything to stop it. The Absalon seems to have fallen out of favour these days, I’ve heard talk either of the Vard 7 313 design, or one of the Damen Crossover design (realistically if we wanted the Crossover range could handle anything we want)
In terms of the helicopters, getting the AC operating full time out of Baldonnel is a bit of a challenge itself, and there’s the legacy of the failure of the last attempt with Eithne, but maybe if the split of the Wing goes ahead they might force some changes in that regard?
As to the usual resistance from all the lobby groups as you mentioned, they never stop. Sure more than a few of the Hard Left TDs screamed when the P60s were ordered, demanding to know why not keep using 40 year old ships rather than spending some €250 million over 5 years.
Both the Vard and Damen options are impressive for a MRV. I am partial to the Damen. The Dutch are giving the HNLMS Karel Doorman a weapons upgrade of a 76 MM naval gun and 2x RAM launchers.
Tripling the naval service staff and doubling the AC is for sure to happen if all of this come about as well as other naval and air facilities. Dún Laoghaire and Galway for example for naval/air stations.
We shall see.
Nollaig Shona Mark
Lets face the facts, this is Irish politicians not wanting to pay for something that does not attract votes and nothing to do with affordability given their tax haven status for multinationals. The GDP per head number is about $145k compared to $56k in the UK plus they run a budget surplus (we wish) which was about $9billion in 2022.
They can afford it but choose not to! Not sure what else I could say as I have heard Irish politics is just as bad as UK politics!
Irish GDP is not a reliable measure, given how skewed it is towards multinationals. Thats why Ireland uses GNI, and if you look at other measures like consumer spending Ireland is actually lower than the UK. But back to the topic Ireland needs to invest in the basics (radar, interceptors, proper sea based patrol) or otherwise have a better offical agreement with the UK thats not so secretive.
I love statistics either way if they want to protect their interests don’t rely on a neighbour especially as you would have no intention of reciprocating that if they were threatened. No article 5 protection just our goodwill and self preservation. As a minimal proper radar and a navy that can put to sea!
Th article from the Irish Examiner said the submarine was operating with another Russian Surface vessel, when it was found 12 miles directly from Cork harbour. So does that mean the submarine was surfaced when spotted, or someone spotted the sub’s periscope. aerials or snorkel? The article does say that the ship was acting as the sub’s surface surveillance, umm not sure about that. As the article does not clarify what type of ship it was, ie spy trawler, submarine tender or ocean going tug!
So was this sub trying to recon the Western Approaches or thinking the bars in Cork looked nice?
Off the top of my head, there would have been some USN/RAF P8 operations off the West Coast in that period, I imagine that is most likely the souce of the detection of this Russian submarine and the response from the RN.
We can’t forget now how many Irish people still serve in the British Forces so we are defending our islands together even if the Irish government won’t open the money box.
Hi all,
Maybe there is an opportunity for the Irish navy to purchase the some of our old T23’s when they go out of service, got to be better than nothing? Or if that is deemed politically sensitive then something similar from another friendly navy. They could surely then train alongside whichever nation they were buying from. Seems a bit short sighted for them to have no real naval presence. But hey, whilst they are getting protection for Freeeeee………..
Even if the 23’s were in a fit state for operations when they finally get replaced, there’s no chance of having Ireland use them. Even if the crew levels were at full establishment of 1K there wouldn’t be enough to sustain them.
As for shortsightedness, that and financing has always been the issue for defence.
What chance the Irish navy,the RN find it difficult to keep the 23’s running,with deeper pockets.🙃
The type 23s will be totally worn out/rusted through by then, it’s taking a major effort right now to keep some of them sea-worthy.
Perhaps a couple of newer vessels with bow sonar and ship launched depth charges would be sufficient deterrent. Could these be fitted to the existing Irish OPVs? As regards an air force maybe its time for Ireland to buy a few M246 – just enough to give the Bears something to think about if they approach Irish air space. Perhaps they could pay for them by training RAF pilots 🙂
So LoA3, best case 2040s
Fair point get rid of the two vessels in service at present ,and if can manage to get there navy trained up and crewed it would be useful .But can’t it happening .👍
Why spend money on defence when you can get the Brits to do it for free. The Irish aren’t stupid eh.
There is a lot of bold/naive talk here about how Ireland should spend more on defence and use a load of high tech like towed array sonar. Total hypothetical joke.To build a sustainable infrastructure of bases, trained & experienced personnel in Army/Navy/Airforce would take decades and billions. A critical mass that would make hostiles like the Russian Navy take them seriously will not be achieved. Ireland will be doing its bit by just keeping the runways accessible in the airports on Ireland’s west coast so NATO anti-submarine aircraft can have greater range over the Eastern Atlantic if ever it kicks off out there.
Apart from the fact that NATO has never used any of those airports of course, and has no access rights to them.
..and yet – you can be sure it’s in NATO plans. The USA would quietly ask the Irish government to oblige NATO with the use of the bases, sorry Airports ie Knock, Galway, Shannon. The Irish government, in full brown-nose-the-Americans mode will say yes. The Irish would nominally still “run” the Airports, the military commander would be an American, not a Brit, due to sensitivities about past unpleasantness. Somewhere twiddling their thumbs would be an Irish senior officer, who would of course be fully consulted.
Ireland isn’t doing it’s bit though, it isn’t a member of NATO and it doesn’t make the runways (or airspace) accessible. It just relies on NATO to defend it as a fait accomplished due to its geographical location.
Oh, please ask Latvia about the cost. Population 1.4m
A bit O/T but new Poland prime minister Donald Tusk is calling for ‘full mobilisation’ of the West.
The poles don’t hang about our government just don’t take things seriously 🙄
It’s a rude awakening when you have a belligerent country as a neighbour with a President/ dictator in power hell bent on empire building.
The Polish are of course right. We should be mobilising and preparing for a conflict Vs Russia, China, North Korea and Iran.
Meanwhile the UK government is too obsessed with internal politics and sound bites of “stop the boats”
We snooze we loose.
Quite. Nero fiddles while Rome burns comes to mind.
Tusk served president of the EU Council of Ministers so has credibility in the EU, but he has a lot of domestic Polish troubles to sort out. His appointment is a hopeful move. Im sure he will be keen to work with the UK regardless of who is in government.
The Tory party is searching for its soul. It is struggling to accept that it does not have a divine right to rule. There is clearly a faction within the Tory party which is actively working to create a constitutional crisis by drafting parliamentary legislation which forbids the courts from holding the government to account. Having failed with Brexit they are now trying again with Rwanda. If you want to allow government ministers acting alone to derogate from the ECHR and the international treaties which govern the treatment of refugees you are a path to authoritarianism; fundamentally changing the relationship between the individual and the state. That means you need a modern Bill of Rights. But we don’t have the time for constitutional reform just now; we need to prioritise urgent defence and security issues. The convoluted and impractical Rwanda ‘solution’ to the problem of illegal immigration was chosen specifically to provoke a constitutional crisis which would lead to a weaker democracy and strengthen the hand of the far right. Think on this….Putin is grinning all over his face at the prospect of populist Trump coming to power in the US and populist Farage joining a right wing Tory party. As they say, it takes one to know one….egomaniac that is.
On a positive note I see we are donating around 20 Viking amphibious vehicles and a couple of dozen commando Rigid raiders to Ukraine. Looks like they may be making progress across the Dnipro near Kherson.
Living at UK expense.
Let’s reverse the narrative.
A us drone has been haphazardly attacked by a Russian warplane in international waters.
However a Russian sub has been chased away from international waters?
Most times British ships get buzzed/ chased by Russian/Chinese aircraft or ships they are transiting a strait in international waters, these are called Freedom of Navigation exercises.
It sounds like the sub was loitering outside the harbour, so clearly not just exercising rights, they were trying to intimidate/ gain information, so not unreasonable for UK warship to move closer, which is what it amounts to. A lot of the Russian incidents have involved some frankly dangerous manoeuvres, with actual risk to life on both sides.
OK I’m confused….. Just what were the Russians actually looking for ? it’s not like they have anything remotely threatening is it ?
Could just be looking to see what the response of the UK/NATO would be.
Can they not just drop a trawling bet over the side from one of there fusing boats, give the sub captain to think about, when his rudder get in a bit of a tangle…
I’m guessing doing that outside of one of the major ports isn’t ideal, besides which you are presuming Ireland knew anything about it before the RN rocked up?
One can make a good guess.
Cables! Just south of Ireland sees a lot of international subsea cables come together.
What’s not being asked here is:
1. What type of sub was it?
2. What type of helo prosecuted? Capable Merlin or the less capable Wildcat?
Son of SOSUS…
More Irish freeloading.
Having read many of the comments and not wishing to be rude but when did the Irish ever listen to the English ? So you tell them they must surrender to Putin immediately. I’d give it10 years and watch Ireland will be spending 6% of their GDP by then on defence. Seriously, the worrying thing is does the Kremlin see Ireland as a weak back door into the UK ? Make no mistake we are the star prize on Putin list.
Can’t put anything passed them 😈
I think The Republic of Ireland should be able to defend itself. I am Welsh, and would love to be free of England, but having said that, they consider our freedom in high regard. An attack on one is an attack on all. Imagine letting the English defend you whilst you blatantly dislike them? We cannot have it both ways. Many of our British troops are from Wales and Northern Ireland.
When I read the title I thought this was a serious story. 12 miles out is hardly in a harbour or being any threat. Its stupid Ireland doesn’t have assets to defend itself but click bait headline.
12 miles is right on the edge of international waters, and well within missile/torpedo range.
It is, but its certainly not inside a harbour and as its in international waters I doubt the RN chased it away, more likely just tracked it.
Most likely, if I remember right that period had USN and RAF P8s off the West Coast. As for the click bait headline, its a combination of factors, one, most Irish media stick defence in with Justice so the writers aren’t on top of things, and two, the Examiner (ie the Cork examiner) is the local paper, and 3 members of the Cabinet are from Cork.
A bit of “look at this” due to the state of the NS me thinks.
I guess if you wanted to move a sub on without starting war, you could drop wide band sound emitters into the water around it and effectively deathen it, forcing it to give up whatever monitoring it was doing.
Stories like this are having an affect on the Irish public. The embarrassment of having another state look after air/naval activities is talked about often and support for improvements on that are growing. Cable and gas infrastructure protection are critical. Even Sinn Fein has changed their stance on defence supporting improvement on many initiatives.
Ireland, 3rd richest country in the world (gdp per capita) loves to moan about the British at every opportunity.
Why did the RN not just let the sub sit there?
Most comms cables across the Atlantic go south of Ireland and deterrent may need to transit the southern route. Can’t just let it sit there with how important the Irish see is to our defence.
Being used as a buffer is just a reality of geography: we do the same, to a lesser degree, to the rest of the Europeans.
However if they acknowledged it rather than treating us as the eternal enemy it would take away some of the sting.
And it’s never wise to be one Daily Mail campaign away from having to completely rethink your defence strategy.
So the RN just happened to discover a sub at the 12 mile limit sat outside Cork harbour…That was lucky.
Or more likely that someone over in Dam Neck got a massive twitch on a sensor array off the UK and sent someone for a look.
Hey Mark-I could have sworn I posted a suggestion to the effect that the best way to solve this problem would be for the ROI to rejoin the UK, but either i forgot to press “SEND ” or George deleted me in order to avoid another bout of riots in Dublin 🙂
I hope you are well and wish you all the best for Christmas and 2024. My Daughter will be enjoying her first Irish Christmas in Cork
There would be more than Dublin having issues in that, hell the U.K. itself wouldn’t want us anyway.😋
zCheers for the best wishes and same to all of your family, hope your daughter has a good time here in the Real Capital.
Put a stop to it, rather than just talking about it,
That told us, let’s just use our senior political roles to change the entire Irish defence policy. Right away sir, let’s change this online newspaper into the new Defence Ministry.
A bit abrupt, but you take my point
The Irish not taking much notice of a ‘U’ boat lurking outside one of their harbours… The majority of Irish folk would probably say… so what? If they want to feck about taking snap shots, let them get on with it.
Linked to this, the item on the Speccie’s Coffee House website by Dean Godson is an interesting read. He argues that it is perhaps time for the RAF and the RN to up their presence in Northern Ireland, as once again, the Western Approaches is gaining in importance.