Irish media has reported that a Russian submarine, positioned near cables on the approaches to Cork Harbour, was “chased off” by a British helicopter and warship because Ireland doesn’t have the ability to do so itself.

Writing in the Irish Examiner, Sean O’Riordan reported that the submarine was “just outside the 12-mile limit, so it didn’t break any international laws, but military sources have indicated that such events around the Irish coast are becoming more common”.

Details of the Russian underwater operation and subsequent British intervention, which took place six months ago, have just emerged.

Sources are cited in the article as saying that as darkness approached, a British helicopter deployed sonar equipment into the water near an unidentified submarine. This action was followed by the arrival of a Royal Navy anti-submarine frigate to monitor the submarine, compensating for the Irish naval ships’ lack of underwater surveillance technology.

“Almost all of the Irish navy’s ships had sonar between the 1960s and 1980s and the former flagship vessel, LÉ Eithne, had it until the 1990s when it became defunct and deemed too expensive at the time by the Department of Defence to replace.”

The report also notes that Russian military activities have tested British air defences near Irish shores.

Do British fighter jets ‘protect’ Irish airspace?

Russia’s use of older Soviet-era Tu-95 ‘Bear Bombers’ has been largely unmonitored by Ireland due to the Air Corps’ lack of high-speed jets or aircraft with sufficient altitude capability. Ireland’s last fighter jets, the Vampire jets, were in service until the 1950s.

Read more here.

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George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772726)
6 months ago

Cat amongst the Pigeons article!

David Lloyd
David Lloyd (@guest_772730)
6 months ago

Does Schrapps read UKDJ? Maybe he should read good articles like this. Is he going to follow Wallace and get another £15bn for the underfunded equipment programs? Not unless it furthers his political career

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772755)
6 months ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

He’ll be gone soon. I’d worry about Healey more than shapps given the long lead nature of defence programs.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_772736)
6 months ago

true, but the republics refusal to defend itself is more than a bit controversial to be honest….I don’t have an issue with neutrality, but the republics government has been living in a fairy land of denial for a long time around defence…which is a bit paradoxical really when you consider that its very powerful neighbour has had historic tendencies to invade now and then and only ( reluctantly mind) admitted that the republic was a separate nation 100 years ago…most small nations sitting next to a large powerful nation tend to be a bit more cogent of defence..even if that… Read more »

Last edited 6 months ago by Jonathan
Mark
Mark (@guest_772747)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

There are historic and economic reasons as to why the DF never got funding, nowadays its mainly Finance and DPER just refusing to fund anything they can get away with.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_772801)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

indeed, I think there does need to be a bit a a rethink, the republic is not a poor county it’s GDP is 20% greater than Denmark but Denmark spends around 3 billion dollars a year on defence and Ireland only 1 billion. ( infact the republic dedicated more thought to defence when it was a really poor county).

Last edited 6 months ago by Jonathan
Mark
Mark (@guest_772803)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

There has been a rethink, the whether its actually funded is another question of course. But there’s more to it, I mean gdp is fairly pointless to use for Ireland, GNI is more accurate. Also we spent more as a percentage as I pointed out in the Troubles, in terms of actual money it was far less than even current spending.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772754)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I agree J. I think Ireland should invest more in defence, like we should. However, that is an issue for them to decide, and I respect that.
My interest in our peripheral involvement is due to our own needs re UKADR, access to airspace, cables, and so forth, for our own defence needs.
I just enjoy reading the daft anti Irish comments that some come out with in response to such articles, and Marks passionate defence of his country. And sure enough, he’s here.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772762)
6 months ago

Not sure its a defence really, I mean I’ve made it clear its not a state I’m happy with, but I just can’t help myself when articles pop up, though the daft comments don’t help.

The article has issues (kind of like any article on defence matters these days), but I wonder who leaked it and why? Coverage of defence issues has increased in Ireland over the last few years and the Examiner has been good for the Navy given its local nature but still wondering if there was an agenda?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772788)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Sorry, my wording was off. No worries.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772798)
6 months ago

Its grand, as you say no worries.

George Amery
George Amery (@guest_772785)
6 months ago

Fully agree Daniele, it’s not just about protecting Irish air space and territorial water. Given the close geographically alignment the UK has, we are also protecting our interests. The bigger picture here is to protect and secure infrastructure that connects Europe, UK and the US such as cabling and shipping routes open.
Cheers,
George

Nai
Nai (@guest_772802)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

As others have said Neutrality is fine, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to spend significantly to maintain a credible defence. Just look at Switzerland, neutral for centuries but knows that you still have to be able to defend your neutrality

Val
Val (@guest_772914)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

To be fair though. Wasn’t it The Scotti from Ireland who invaded the North of Britain and gave their name to us native Britons up there, creating division in Britain before from Britain invading Ireland? Along with the Romans. What I am saying is, as a massively invaded island, we need reparations from Ireland and modern Italy, Denmarck, Germany and France I guess are required. Ten trillion quid?

Jonno
Jonno (@guest_773351)
6 months ago
Reply to  Val

Don’t forget the slaves the Romans took away and the various invasions from the Germanic tribes, Norsemen and the Barbary pirates that set back our development by hundreds of years. I’d say you are talking hundreds of Quadrillions to keep these sunlit islands in the manner…..

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken (@guest_772938)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Aye the once proud Irish nation sold out long ago.its a lot bigger than just defence or their political class living in la la land they are completely dictated to by the EU ,told what to do in nearly every facet of life.

As Kool N the Gang put it the Irish people have been “Misled” ….. they need to invest in their sovereignty and their defence.

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇬🇧

Mark
Mark (@guest_773219)
6 months ago

That’s a strange fantasy but sure whatever floats your boat.

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken (@guest_773229)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

No fantasy Amigo don’t you watch the news? Look at the recent riots

The ROI does what the EU tells it regardless of what the people think. Perhaps if You did get Connor McGregor as President you would do alright.

As for defence spending I don’t need to say anything it’s unequivocal.

Aye the “truth” …Incontrovertible malice may attack it , ignorance May deride it but in the end there it is.

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇬🇧

Mark
Mark (@guest_773493)
6 months ago

The recent riot was mainly due to long standing problems will policing inner city Dublin, the same attack that sparked it happens virtually weekly and mainly from Irish people (for examples, see the attack on American tourists last year, and British ones, or students, all carried out by Irish teenager/20 year olds)

As to McGregor, showing a bit of lack of knowledge there aren’t you, the position of President is non political, they have no power in running the country, nor does he have any support to actually run.

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken (@guest_773782)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Sorry bro but that aside president ,PM whatever ,the lack of knowledge you claim the ROI does exactly what the EU dictates. I’m afraid is a smokescreen it is you who are are out of touch with what the average Joe Blow wants. I say this coming from a position of authority as the EU still is dictating what happens in the U.K. despite the Democratic will of it’s people having been made known, The ROI is forced to take so called economic migrants in unparalleled numbers regardless of the wishes of its citizens the same shite as is being… Read more »

Adrian
Adrian (@guest_772939)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think Ireland probably have the right idea though, they are clearly not going to invest in anti sub frigates so why not let the UK do it for them. On the bit about defending themselves against a powerful neighbour, it would probably be a waste of time and money as they’re not going to spend anywhere near enough to make a difference

Mark
Mark (@guest_772971)
6 months ago
Reply to  Adrian

Which powerful neighbour could we defend ourselves against short of a North Korea style full military program?

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_773126)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

To be honest here Mark..never ever say never, the sad truth is nations change, sometimes very quickly..we tend to think of our western democracies, with their enlightened self interest as immutable..but they are actually very young things with our less democratic past still something that is only just out of living memory. I am a patriot and proud of the UKs parliamentary democracy….but I know it could fall into something more sinister..if the right set events the right pressures occurred, Ireland could find itself next door to a rather nasty nation…do I think it would happen no..could it yes…..we were… Read more »

Mark
Mark (@guest_773130)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

But the calculation that Finance made in 1922 still holds in that case. There is no credible way a nation of 5 million can offer a defence against a hostile nuclear armed nation of 65+ million right next door. If the UK ever did become such a hostile force, what exactly force levels do you think could deter them?

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_773154)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

In reality deterrence needs to be less than one would imagine, unless something is totemic to a nation and then it’s very very difficult to deter ( infact possibly even close to impossible)..but small neurtal nations have survived next to unpleasant large neighbours for a long time by: 1) making sure the don’t create a totemic issue 2) being useful, The classic is the buffer type state or service provider state. 3) having just enough military power that the larger state is forced to deploy a lot of its armed forces to overwhelm….making it inconvenient enough that it’s not worth… Read more »

Rugger-13
Rugger-13 (@guest_773288)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Your example of Switzerland having fast jets is true but it was discovered when a passenger jet needed escorting due to an onboard hijack threat that the Swiss Air Force didn’t have air defence coverage outside office hours!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swiss-air-force-ethiopian-airlines-hijacking-office-hours

But yes considering Ireland has a healthy economy they should be able to afford a navy and air force that can maintain their “neutrality” and not need the UK to step in – this disproving defence neutrality.
Before you know it Putin Might decide to annexe Eire and like Ukraine, UK and NATO wouldn’t officially be able to help.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_773498)
6 months ago
Reply to  Rugger-13

That just reminded me of a great ( if slightly bonkers ) novel about the invasion of Ireland by Libya and the PLO…called dark rose if I remember rightly ( I read it about 25 years ago)..totally tonto story but fun read.

DH
DH (@guest_772774)
6 months ago

Very astute DM. 👌👍🕳️

Klonkie
Klonkie (@guest_772954)
6 months ago

Hey DM- How have you been coping?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772960)
6 months ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Better than I feared mate. D Day is tomorrow, 1245 Guildford Crematorium. 😞

Klonkie
Klonkie (@guest_772985)
6 months ago

Hope the ceremony goes well Mate. Things will get better with time

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772988)
6 months ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Thank you Chris.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_772727)
6 months ago

The Russians do seem to be snooping around Ireland a fair bit s since Ukraine war broke out .Can Ireland refit sonar back on their vessels maybe 🤔 has RN very stretch .Has for Vampire jets is not better than what their have now 🇮🇪 🤗

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_772741)
6 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

This is the irony isn’t it they were better equipped 40 years ago than they are now. Also proves if further proof were ever needed that being neutral is no safe option in the World of Russian Imperialism and indeed increasingly Chinese. If and it will depend on other factors, you basically fawn over Russia submissively you just may be left with a modicum of freedom as long as you don’t geographically matter but hey dare criticise or dare be anywhere that they covet and it really doesn’t matter how independent and neutral you are you will still be subject… Read more »

lee1
lee1 (@guest_772745)
6 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

I don’t think this has anything to do with an anti-British stance at all. It is purely down to the Irish Government being reluctant to spend on defence. It would rather (like most governments including the UK) spend money on things that make it look good rather than things it actually needs… Being Neutral is all good and well (apart from the fact that it prevents you from standing up to evil), But the need for defence is still there as evil dictators often do not care about whether you are neutral or not… Now you can save money as… Read more »

Mark
Mark (@guest_772749)
6 months ago
Reply to  lee1

It also has a large amount to do with the economic reality of the Irish state up until the 90s effectively, ie a tiny economy can’t fund much of anything. During the Troubles the budget was over 1.5% gdp for example but you were only talking about a few hundred million pounds.

Now its just inertia and historic ill will from Finance.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_772804)
6 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

I’m not sure it has anything to do with an anti British Anti NATO stance…the republic is a happy neutral..the issue is neutral nations still have to defend themselves or they will be pray to stronger nations..neutral does not mean you will be left alone.The republic has a toxic relationship with its armed forces that needs to change.

Last edited 6 months ago by Jonathan
Mark
Mark (@guest_772829)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It’s not “toxic” it’s indifference, toxic would require the average punter/politician to be even vaguely aware of the DF.

Yes
Yes (@guest_772886)
6 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Can I have some of yours.
Russia endangers, bwahahaha.

Jason
Jason (@guest_772904)
6 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Being neutral means that some other bu**er protects your territory whilst you make your country rich.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772748)
6 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

There is reportedly a plan to refit the P60’s with some sonar capability, but even then its going marginal at best. As for the Vampire’s, thats just the writer not having a clue, they were trainer variants themselves with little more capabilities than what we have now other than having a jet engine.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_772811)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I don’t really think the republic needs much capability to be honest..but it does need to be able to police and intercept air, surface and sub surface targets…something as minimal as a flight of second hand 16s would do…I’m sure if asked HMG would willingly hand over the keys to a fight of batch one typhoons.The world is full of degenerate nutters both state and none state actors. it would only take a UN peace keeping operation to get on wrong side of one of these groups of evil gits and you become a target.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772830)
6 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

That would be the suggested LoA3, at best something that would be the better part of two decades away even if their was political buy in for it, which there isn’t.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney (@guest_773354)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I thought the P60’d were laid up and only the 4 P70’s were active. I am originally from Galloway in SW Scotland and I can actually understand the reluctance of Irish Governments to fund armed Defence. We also have the same sectarian divides and there is just too much bad History ! But that doesn’t mean you can’t provide for your own situational awareness and feed that into your Friendly Neighbours. I do think there are a few small steps Eire could take to improve things. Buy a decent Air Warning Radar system and feed info onto the RAF and… Read more »

Mark
Mark (@guest_773397)
6 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Nah, the P70’s are the two second hand New Zealand boats. In terms of your suggestions, the radar procurement is now formally on the cards over the next 5 years but what it is, what coverage the system will have and whether or not it will connect to are all unknowns right now. Buying a couple of second hand Support Rigs straight up hits the manpower issue, any change in that will go towards the current hulls getting back to sea, not any new hulls. Long term, we are an “observer” in the EPC project, most likely in view of… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772757)
6 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

Given the routing of so many internet cables south of Ireland across the Atlantic, I’m not surprised.

Frank62
Frank62 (@guest_772874)
6 months ago

Thanks Daniel, I was wondering what Russia would be interested in to snoop so blatently of Eire.
Still a bit rich us criticising Eire when we are filing to invest in our own forces adequately. We only have 7 or8 ASW FFGs ourselves.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772879)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Meh, they’ve always done this back into the Cold War, just no internet for people to notice it.

Frank62
Frank62 (@guest_772899)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Looking into it I see Cork(Haulbowline Is) has a navy base. Eire has 2 MPA, 6 OPVs(4in reserve, 2 active) but no ASW capability.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772907)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

MSAs not MPAs, the 235s are sort of hybrids that CASA kludged together for us, they are currently being replaced with 2 295s but they aren’t fitted for ASW either currently.

As for the OPVs, DOD was brutal in setting the specs for them, there is plans for some sort of Sonar upgrade for them but I haven’t seen any details of that yet.

Frank62
Frank62 (@guest_773004)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I have no idea what fit out the Casa 295s have in irish service, so ta.

Last edited 6 months ago by Frank62
Mickey
Mickey (@guest_773116)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

This was disappointing when I found out that the 295s are essentially ‘sight hounds’.

Upgrading them to full ASW and torpedos is something that the Chief of defence could push for. He is an airman after all. 🙂

Mark
Mark (@guest_773129)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mickey

They do have the fittings for pylons, but I can’t see him pushing for it. Right now there’s still many bun fights over what changes might happen due to the Commissions report.

Mickey
Mickey (@guest_773137)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Seán‘s job is a tough one and very frustrating. Most chiefs from other countries have similar fights but Ireland is class all its own.

Mark
Mark (@guest_773217)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mickey

Indeed, the Army being the Army.

Pete ( the original from years ago)
Pete ( the original from years ago) (@guest_773000)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Indeed. Was contemplating issue of Lakenheath. US has combat capability there equal to half the RAF. Back in day it was +/- 400 miles from East Germany. Now it’s +/- 1000 miles from eastern Belarus. UK should be able to take care of its neck of the woods. Shouldn’t US Lakenheath capability not move further east to Denmark or western part of Germany. As for Irish, woulnt say 3 x Q400 / SAAB swordfish MPA aircraft combinations not provide effective economic zone MPA and anti sub capability in a single package.

Frank62
Frank62 (@guest_773005)
6 months ago

I used to wash USAF laundry from Lakenheath & Mildenhall, among others at a now defunct Initial plant in Lowestoft in the 90’s. USAF has other airbases in Germany & probably ready access to others close to the Russia/Belaurus borders. Plus in flight refueling gets them there if needed anyway. Defence in depth for Europe is not a bad thing. The Irish air force has just started replacing its 2 CASA 235 MPA aircraft with up to date 295’s but with no ASW capability. The solution could be to add ASW kit to them, but only IF & when they… Read more »

Pete ( the original from years ago)
Pete ( the original from years ago) (@guest_773010)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Cheers Frank. Appreciate comments.

Richard Newcombe
Richard Newcombe (@guest_772896)
6 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

The Russians aren’t interested in Ireland. They are using it as a safish place to hide.
They are interested only in the Faslane base.
We must keep their boats out of the Irish sea.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772908)
6 months ago

If they ant to get to Faslane, hiding off the South Coast of Ireland seems pretty far to go.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_772925)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Maybe there fancy a drink ,everyone one knows the Irish like a good knees up .🤗 🍺

RICHARD NEWCOMBE
RICHARD NEWCOMBE (@guest_772990)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

It depends on which way the Vanguards go when deploying. Could be more than one Russian boat.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772992)
6 months ago

Why risk the relatively confined waters of the Irish Sea and a Fishing incident when Faslane has better access above NI?

Deep32
Deep32 (@guest_773193)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

They would transit the Irish Sea on the surface before diving some where off the bottom of Ireland.

Mark
Mark (@guest_773218)
6 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Have they ever done that? Seems a very long time for the SSBNs to be surfaced?

Deep32
Deep32 (@guest_773231)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

It depends largely on the threat picture, but in short yes they have.
The idea is to get into the diving position before sunrise/after any satillites have passed. So as said sun comes up, said sea is empty!

Mark
Mark (@guest_773235)
6 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Cheers.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_773587)
6 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Fascinating mate. I’d heard of SSN in the Irish sea but unaware bombers had gone that way.

Deep32
Deep32 (@guest_773648)
6 months ago

It’s not the usual route granted, that’s hang a right at Arran, past the Kintyre peninsular and out through the N Channel. But, occasionally needs must, we had a developing intel situation with a OOA deployer coming south, not only did we need to get out, but the returning bomber had to get in. We went a day or so early trundled down the Irish sea and went on our merry way. Returning SSBN back alongside, job done.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_773666)
6 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Thanks for this.

Pete ( the original from years ago)
Pete ( the original from years ago) (@guest_773009)
6 months ago

Indeed. Not much to be gleaned about Irish military infrastructure NATO passage and sub sea comms infrastructure will be their focus….but Ireland has an obligation to do more. Within their EZ.

DaveyB
DaveyB (@guest_772737)
6 months ago

Unlike Switzerland and previously before applying to join NATO Sweden, Ireland does not take its neutrality seriously. I mean who would want to invade Ireland after all? However, that does not detract from the fact, that the Republic should be at least more proactive in monitoring not only its airspace and EEZ, but also the seas as well. It could quite easily afford to place a long range radar on its West coast. Which would at least find and track Russian Tu-95s etc flying at altitude who aren’t transmitting on IFF or ADS-B. The seas, will be a lot more… Read more »

DH
DH (@guest_772750)
6 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

I’ve often wondered DB, Hi there, why the EEZ Republic of Ireland cannot be protected and supported by the said EEZ partners 🇫🇷, Spain 🇪🇸 et al.? 🤔🕳️.

lee1
lee1 (@guest_772752)
6 months ago
Reply to  DH

It would be… But remember it is an economic club not a defence club as such. However there is little doubt that other EU countries would help defend it if needed. I mean even NATO would likely defend it due to the vulnerability of the UK and other members if it was to fall into enemy hands.

DH
DH (@guest_772760)
6 months ago
Reply to  lee1

Hi Lee1, not to start a heated argument but, the RoI can’t even service their imaginary and controversial sea border.. 🙃

Mark
Mark (@guest_772794)
6 months ago
Reply to  DH

Whats controversial about the sea border? Other than annoying NI fishermen and the boundary disputes of Rockall and Lough Foyle?

DH
DH (@guest_772806)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I don’t know, you inform me why it is, or isn’t controversial. Apart from the fact it wasn’t needed until now..🤔👍

Mark
Mark (@guest_772831)
6 months ago
Reply to  DH

Oh that, that’s an internal U.K. issue, not the Republics waters. As to why it’s needed, we aren’t in a common trade area anymore.

Tony
Tony (@guest_772771)
6 months ago
Reply to  lee1

You’d rely on the EU countries to defend anything…..because I wouldn’t.

There is only the French with any real capability or know-how.

The UK will do it due to it’s own self interest. We’ve been doing it for years.

lee1
lee1 (@guest_773144)
6 months ago
Reply to  Tony

Yes we will. Obviously that is always going to happen. My answer was to a hypothetical question. Plus There are a few EU countries with Naval capabilities. I mean Sweden has a reasonable Naval capability, Italy also does along with obviously France. Greece also has capability. But yes we are always likely to defend Ireland as it benefits us to do so.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772759)
6 months ago
Reply to  DH

There has been a Fisheries patrol ship on and off for a year or so, as for something more serious, I think there was discussions with the French in regards to Air Policing, they told the delegation to go talk to London reportedly.

DH
DH (@guest_772768)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Hey Mark, Gallic and Gaelic discussion! Sounds like the start of a boring 💤 tv soap. 😴🕳️.

grizzler
grizzler (@guest_772825)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Did they shrug their shoulders at the same time – uttering Mon Dieu.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772859)
6 months ago
Reply to  grizzler

Possibly, also maybe gave us the number of the French defence companies…

Mark
Mark (@guest_772751)
6 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

The Radar is supposedly on the procurement list (wait for it…) but anything more than that is unlikely.

I would point out however if it was outside the 12 mile limit, so technically had as much right as any of the Western warships that have operated within the EEZ

DaveyB
DaveyB (@guest_772783)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Fingers crossed then!

Deep32
Deep32 (@guest_772818)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Hi Mark, I think that Ireland is caught between a rock and a hard place wrt this article. Trying to provide such a capability even in basic terms is a very expensive undertaking especially given what you say about the state of affairs/economics in the country. I would think that the best potential solution should the powers to be see fit to progress, would be some form of alliance if you will, with either NATO or the EU. Dont believe not being a member would be to much of an issue given the countries location. Indeed if you look at… Read more »

TR
TR (@guest_772961)
6 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Ireland is now the 3rd richest country in the world by gdp per capita, they can afford it.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_772808)
6 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

True. And in the short term at least, it’s not going to get much better. Next year is an election year in Ireland and the parties will be falling over themselves promising tax cuts, more money for hospitals, schools, roads, housing etc. Defence will barely get a mention beyond increasing remuneration to serving personnel. It’s likely as well that the next government will be substantially made up of Sinn Fein, a party very much left of centre that has a long standing antipathy towards NATO, PESCO, and any force structure that isn’t UN mandated. There are plans somewhere for the… Read more »

Mark
Mark (@guest_772835)
6 months ago

The MRV has been in procurement hell for nearly two decades now, and DPER/Finance are strongly against it, whether or not it ever happens though, the intention was for out of EEZ operations, the design has no more ASW capabilities than anything else in the fleet at the moment, though would be able to sustain helicopter operations (though finance has said no to that as well).

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_772847)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Yeah. I did see a recent article somewhere about a European Multi Role Vessel project in which Ireland was an observer nation. Given recent developments I wouldn’t be surprised if some form of sonar/ sub surface capability has been added. But as you rightly allude to , finance, finance and finance.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772861)
6 months ago

Those are different projects just to be clear. We have taken up observer status on the new European Patrol Corvette project that’s part of PESCO, and maybe they will replace the P50’s (who even before the crew crisis they were aging quicker than expected). The MRV/EPV project dates back to the mid 00’s post our UN operations in East Timor, Liberia to be a support ship/medical support/transport for Irish UN missions. At the time we almost bought a Absalon class for the role but then the Crash happened and ever since the Navy have been told no. Thats why the… Read more »

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_772878)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Sound, thanks Mark.

Mickey
Mickey (@guest_773912)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

An MRV armed similar to the Absalon class and 3 or 4 of the European patrol corvettes with a balance of ASUW,AAW and ASW would be a ideal goal for the service Crew complements on all of these vessels are at 100 or lower. The AC could also get 4 or 5 ASW capable helos These are not impossible goals but I already would see the homeless and health lobby groups with their arguments saying that this defence funding would rob from them These groups have to realize that any government (Ireland especially) can walk and chew gum at the… Read more »

Mark
Mark (@guest_774126)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mickey

I’d agree with you that such a force structure wouldn’t be impossible, but you are likely looking at trebling the establishment of the Navy if not more, so all the usual actors would do anything to stop it. The Absalon seems to have fallen out of favour these days, I’ve heard talk either of the Vard 7 313 design, or one of the Damen Crossover design (realistically if we wanted the Crossover range could handle anything we want) In terms of the helicopters, getting the AC operating full time out of Baldonnel is a bit of a challenge itself, and… Read more »

Mickey
Mickey (@guest_774201)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Both the Vard and Damen options are impressive for a MRV. I am partial to the Damen. The Dutch are giving the HNLMS Karel Doorman a weapons upgrade of a 76 MM naval gun and 2x RAM launchers.
Tripling the naval service staff and doubling the AC is for sure to happen if all of this come about as well as other naval and air facilities. Dún Laoghaire and Galway for example for naval/air stations.

We shall see.

Nollaig Shona Mark

Malcolm Rich
Malcolm Rich (@guest_772765)
6 months ago

Lets face the facts, this is Irish politicians not wanting to pay for something that does not attract votes and nothing to do with affordability given their tax haven status for multinationals. The GDP per head number is about $145k compared to $56k in the UK plus they run a budget surplus (we wish) which was about $9billion in 2022.
They can afford it but choose not to! Not sure what else I could say as I have heard Irish politics is just as bad as UK politics!

Paul
Paul (@guest_772793)
6 months ago
Reply to  Malcolm Rich

Irish GDP is not a reliable measure, given how skewed it is towards multinationals. Thats why Ireland uses GNI, and if you look at other measures like consumer spending Ireland is actually lower than the UK. But back to the topic Ireland needs to invest in the basics (radar, interceptors, proper sea based patrol) or otherwise have a better offical agreement with the UK thats not so secretive.

Malcolm Rich
Malcolm Rich (@guest_772858)
6 months ago
Reply to  Paul

I love statistics either way if they want to protect their interests don’t rely on a neighbour especially as you would have no intention of reciprocating that if they were threatened. No article 5 protection just our goodwill and self preservation. As a minimal proper radar and a navy that can put to sea!

DaveyB
DaveyB (@guest_772780)
6 months ago

Th article from the Irish Examiner said the submarine was operating with another Russian Surface vessel, when it was found 12 miles directly from Cork harbour. So does that mean the submarine was surfaced when spotted, or someone spotted the sub’s periscope. aerials or snorkel? The article does say that the ship was acting as the sub’s surface surveillance, umm not sure about that. As the article does not clarify what type of ship it was, ie spy trawler, submarine tender or ocean going tug! So was this sub trying to recon the Western Approaches or thinking the bars in… Read more »

Mark
Mark (@guest_772792)
6 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Off the top of my head, there would have been some USN/RAF P8 operations off the West Coast in that period, I imagine that is most likely the souce of the detection of this Russian submarine and the response from the RN.

Colin
Colin (@guest_772790)
6 months ago

We can’t forget now how many Irish people still serve in the British Forces so we are defending our islands together even if the Irish government won’t open the money box.

Daz
Daz (@guest_772796)
6 months ago

Hi all,

Maybe there is an opportunity for the Irish navy to purchase the some of our old T23’s when they go out of service, got to be better than nothing? Or if that is deemed politically sensitive then something similar from another friendly navy. They could surely then train alongside whichever nation they were buying from. Seems a bit short sighted for them to have no real naval presence. But hey, whilst they are getting protection for Freeeeee………..

Mark
Mark (@guest_772799)
6 months ago
Reply to  Daz

Even if the 23’s were in a fit state for operations when they finally get replaced, there’s no chance of having Ireland use them. Even if the crew levels were at full establishment of 1K there wouldn’t be enough to sustain them.
As for shortsightedness, that and financing has always been the issue for defence.

DH
DH (@guest_772816)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

What chance the Irish navy,the RN find it difficult to keep the 23’s running,with deeper pockets.🙃

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts (@guest_772822)
6 months ago
Reply to  Daz

The type 23s will be totally worn out/rusted through by then, it’s taking a major effort right now to keep some of them sea-worthy.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_772832)
6 months ago
Reply to  Daz

Perhaps a couple of newer vessels with bow sonar and ship launched depth charges would be sufficient deterrent. Could these be fitted to the existing Irish OPVs? As regards an air force maybe its time for Ireland to buy a few M246 – just enough to give the Bears something to think about if they approach Irish air space. Perhaps they could pay for them by training RAF pilots 🙂

Mark
Mark (@guest_772862)
6 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

So LoA3, best case 2040s

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_772932)
6 months ago
Reply to  Daz

Fair point get rid of the two vessels in service at present ,and if can manage to get there navy trained up and crewed it would be useful .But can’t it happening .👍

Kevine
Kevine (@guest_772805)
6 months ago

Why spend money on defence when you can get the Brits to do it for free. The Irish aren’t stupid eh.

Roger
Roger (@guest_772807)
6 months ago

There is a lot of bold/naive talk here about how Ireland should spend more on defence and use a load of high tech like towed array sonar. Total hypothetical joke.To build a sustainable infrastructure of bases, trained & experienced personnel in Army/Navy/Airforce would take decades and billions. A critical mass that would make hostiles like the Russian Navy take them seriously will not be achieved. Ireland will be doing its bit by just keeping the runways accessible in the airports on Ireland’s west coast so NATO anti-submarine aircraft can have greater range over the Eastern Atlantic if ever it kicks… Read more »

Mark
Mark (@guest_772834)
6 months ago
Reply to  Roger

Apart from the fact that NATO has never used any of those airports of course, and has no access rights to them.

Roger
Roger (@guest_772848)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

..and yet – you can be sure it’s in NATO plans. The USA would quietly ask the Irish government to oblige NATO with the use of the bases, sorry Airports ie Knock, Galway, Shannon. The Irish government, in full brown-nose-the-Americans mode will say yes. The Irish would nominally still “run” the Airports, the military commander would be an American, not a Brit, due to sensitivities about past unpleasantness. Somewhere twiddling their thumbs would be an Irish senior officer, who would of course be fully consulted.

TR
TR (@guest_772962)
6 months ago
Reply to  Roger

Ireland isn’t doing it’s bit though, it isn’t a member of NATO and it doesn’t make the runways (or airspace) accessible. It just relies on NATO to defend it as a fait accomplished due to its geographical location.

David Barry
David Barry (@guest_773011)
6 months ago
Reply to  Roger

Oh, please ask Latvia about the cost. Population 1.4m

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_772836)
6 months ago

A bit O/T but new Poland prime minister Donald Tusk is calling for ‘full mobilisation’ of the West.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_772935)
6 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

The poles don’t hang about our government just don’t take things seriously 🙄

Mr Bell
Mr Bell (@guest_772942)
6 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

It’s a rude awakening when you have a belligerent country as a neighbour with a President/ dictator in power hell bent on empire building.
The Polish are of course right. We should be mobilising and preparing for a conflict Vs Russia, China, North Korea and Iran.
Meanwhile the UK government is too obsessed with internal politics and sound bites of “stop the boats”
We snooze we loose.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_772968)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Quite. Nero fiddles while Rome burns comes to mind. Tusk served president of the EU Council of Ministers so has credibility in the EU, but he has a lot of domestic Polish troubles to sort out. His appointment is a hopeful move. Im sure he will be keen to work with the UK regardless of who is in government. The Tory party is searching for its soul. It is struggling to accept that it does not have a divine right to rule. There is clearly a faction within the Tory party which is actively working to create a constitutional crisis… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_772857)
6 months ago

Living at UK expense.

Yes
Yes (@guest_772882)
6 months ago

Let’s reverse the narrative.
A us drone has been haphazardly attacked by a Russian warplane in international waters.
However a Russian sub has been chased away from international waters?

SailorBoy
SailorBoy (@guest_773156)
6 months ago
Reply to  Yes

Most times British ships get buzzed/ chased by Russian/Chinese aircraft or ships they are transiting a strait in international waters, these are called Freedom of Navigation exercises.
It sounds like the sub was loitering outside the harbour, so clearly not just exercising rights, they were trying to intimidate/ gain information, so not unreasonable for UK warship to move closer, which is what it amounts to. A lot of the Russian incidents have involved some frankly dangerous manoeuvres, with actual risk to life on both sides.

Frank
Frank (@guest_772884)
6 months ago

OK I’m confused….. Just what were the Russians actually looking for ? it’s not like they have anything remotely threatening is it ?

Mark
Mark (@guest_772890)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Could just be looking to see what the response of the UK/NATO would be.

Dave
Dave (@guest_772892)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Can they not just drop a trawling bet over the side from one of there fusing boats, give the sub captain to think about, when his rudder get in a bit of a tangle…

Mark
Mark (@guest_772900)
6 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I’m guessing doing that outside of one of the major ports isn’t ideal, besides which you are presuming Ireland knew anything about it before the RN rocked up?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_772911)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank

One can make a good guess.

David Barry
David Barry (@guest_773013)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Cables! Just south of Ireland sees a lot of international subsea cables come together.

What’s not being asked here is:
1. What type of sub was it?
2. What type of helo prosecuted? Capable Merlin or the less capable Wildcat?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster (@guest_773111)
6 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Son of SOSUS…

John
John (@guest_772895)
6 months ago

More Irish freeloading.

S.crossland
S.crossland (@guest_772897)
6 months ago

Having read many of the comments and not wishing to be rude but when did the Irish ever listen to the English ? So you tell them they must surrender to Putin immediately. I’d give it10 years and watch Ireland will be spending 6% of their GDP by then on defence. Seriously, the worrying thing is does the Kremlin see Ireland as a weak back door into the UK ? Make no mistake we are the star prize on Putin list.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_772936)
6 months ago
Reply to  S.crossland

Can’t put anything passed them 😈

Williams
Williams (@guest_772937)
6 months ago

I think The Republic of Ireland should be able to defend itself. I am Welsh, and would love to be free of England, but having said that, they consider our freedom in high regard. An attack on one is an attack on all. Imagine letting the English defend you whilst you blatantly dislike them? We cannot have it both ways. Many of our British troops are from Wales and Northern Ireland.

Steve
Steve (@guest_772957)
6 months ago

When I read the title I thought this was a serious story. 12 miles out is hardly in a harbour or being any threat. Its stupid Ireland doesn’t have assets to defend itself but click bait headline.

TR
TR (@guest_772963)
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve

12 miles is right on the edge of international waters, and well within missile/torpedo range.

Steve
Steve (@guest_772981)
6 months ago
Reply to  TR

It is, but its certainly not inside a harbour and as its in international waters I doubt the RN chased it away, more likely just tracked it.

Mark
Mark (@guest_772983)
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Most likely, if I remember right that period had USN and RAF P8s off the West Coast. As for the click bait headline, its a combination of factors, one, most Irish media stick defence in with Justice so the writers aren’t on top of things, and two, the Examiner (ie the Cork examiner) is the local paper, and 3 members of the Cabinet are from Cork.

A bit of “look at this” due to the state of the NS me thinks.

Steve
Steve (@guest_772989)
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I guess if you wanted to move a sub on without starting war, you could drop wide band sound emitters into the water around it and effectively deathen it, forcing it to give up whatever monitoring it was doing.

Mickey
Mickey (@guest_773124)
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Stories like this are having an affect on the Irish public. The embarrassment of having another state look after air/naval activities is talked about often and support for improvements on that are growing. Cable and gas infrastructure protection are critical. Even Sinn Fein has changed their stance on defence supporting improvement on many initiatives.

TR
TR (@guest_772959)
6 months ago

Ireland, 3rd richest country in the world (gdp per capita) loves to moan about the British at every opportunity.
Why did the RN not just let the sub sit there?

LongTime
LongTime (@guest_773121)
6 months ago
Reply to  TR

Most comms cables across the Atlantic go south of Ireland and deterrent may need to transit the southern route. Can’t just let it sit there with how important the Irish see is to our defence.

Tomartyr
Tomartyr (@guest_772972)
6 months ago

Being used as a buffer is just a reality of geography: we do the same, to a lesser degree, to the rest of the Europeans.

However if they acknowledged it rather than treating us as the eternal enemy it would take away some of the sting.
And it’s never wise to be one Daily Mail campaign away from having to completely rethink your defence strategy.

Last edited 6 months ago by Tomartyr
Gunbuster
Gunbuster (@guest_773110)
6 months ago

So the RN just happened to discover a sub at the 12 mile limit sat outside Cork harbour…That was lucky.

Or more likely that someone over in Dam Neck got a massive twitch on a sensor array off the UK and sent someone for a look.

geoff
geoff (@guest_773120)
6 months ago

Hey Mark-I could have sworn I posted a suggestion to the effect that the best way to solve this problem would be for the ROI to rejoin the UK, but either i forgot to press “SEND ” or George deleted me in order to avoid another bout of riots in Dublin 🙂
I hope you are well and wish you all the best for Christmas and 2024. My Daughter will be enjoying her first Irish Christmas in Cork

Mark
Mark (@guest_773234)
6 months ago
Reply to  geoff

There would be more than Dublin having issues in that, hell the U.K. itself wouldn’t want us anyway.😋
zCheers for the best wishes and same to all of your family, hope your daughter has a good time here in the Real Capital.

Rabthebruce
Rabthebruce (@guest_773145)
6 months ago

Put a stop to it, rather than just talking about it,

SailorBoy
SailorBoy (@guest_773157)
6 months ago
Reply to  Rabthebruce

That told us, let’s just use our senior political roles to change the entire Irish defence policy. Right away sir, let’s change this online newspaper into the new Defence Ministry.
A bit abrupt, but you take my point

Tom
Tom (@guest_773464)
6 months ago

The Irish not taking much notice of a ‘U’ boat lurking outside one of their harbours… The majority of Irish folk would probably say… so what? If they want to feck about taking snap shots, let them get on with it.

TonyB
TonyB (@guest_773649)
6 months ago

Linked to this, the item on the Speccie’s Coffee House website by Dean Godson is an interesting read. He argues that it is perhaps time for the RAF and the RN to up their presence in Northern Ireland, as once again, the Western Approaches is gaining in importance.