The Royal Navy is escorting Russian cruiser Marshal Ustinov, destroyer Vice-Admiral Kulakov and tanker Vyazma through the English Channel.
Earlier in the week, frigate HMS Lancaster was shadowing the Russian vessels in an area of international waters that are part of Ireland’s Exclusive Economic Zone.
Defence analyst @air_intel is following the vessels, I recommend you follow him for more.
Ht to the lookout for the identifies of the Russian vessels https://t.co/RhmIV8dDKG
— Air & Sea Intel (@air_intel) September 4, 2022
Local media in Ireland had reported that the Irish Air Corps dispatched a surveillance aircraft to monitor the movements of the ships while the Irish Naval Service were working to dispatch a ship to observe. The Irish Defence Forces said they “aware of this activity and are monitoring the situation. However, Óglaigh na hÉireann does not comment on specific operational deployments.”
According to USNI News here, Marshal Ustinov, sister ship to the former RTS Moskva (121), passed through the Strait of Gibraltar last Thursday after operating in the Mediterranean Sea since early February, according to ship spotters.
“Shortly after it passed into the Atlantic two U.S. guided-missile destroyers assigned to the Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group, USS Cole (DDG-67) and USS Bainbridge (DDG-96), followed the Russian cruiser two hours after it passed the Rock of Gibraltar, according to photos published by ship spotters. The cruiser was one of Russia’s primary naval assets in the region and reduces Moscow’s presence closer to Ukraine.”
In a state of heightened tensions RN shows it’s weakness by sending a frigate stripped on any ASuW capabilities. Better off sending an OPV.
At least the RN will be spared the embarrassment of the Russian group sailing past the stalled Prince of Wales.
Why exactly is it a problem,, this is a standard babysitting A strait transit.
As soon as I saw the headline of the article on the home page I eagerly clicked to this thread to see the expected moans. And here we are.
Not even an accurate moan either. Lancaster is carrying Harpoon, which is still more than enough to deal with the Ruskies.
Well it’s got its main gun and sea ceptor would make a mess if it come to it, and maybe a helicopter on board so it still has ASuW capabilities
This is escort duties. It’s not combat. It’s useful to guide some ships through certain areas due to issues they could have. Anyway how do you know the frigate escorting doesn’t have anti ship missiles on board? The ships are still carrying them when needed. HMS Lancaster has them on board earlier this week. Also there is a chopper on the back with sea venom anti ship missiles, martlet anti ship missiles, stingray torpedoes depth charges and a machine gun. The type 23 also have the ship launched torpedoes, 4.5 inch gun, 30mm guns and sea ceptor missiles which can… Read more »
But it would be a helluva opportunity to organize an impromptu SINKEX! 😁 On second thought, belay that, RN would be filling environmental impact reports for the foreseeable future! 🤔😳☹️
…filing…🙄
There is two ways to look at this, either peace time exercise and who cares what is sent to escort or flip side is this is the best ship we have to send and on paper its badly out matched. Its not like we have better equipped ships that could have been sent but were otherwise engaged.
We don’t really know what happened to the mosova but we assume it’s defenses failed and it wasn’t human error. If it was just human error then we would be badly outmatched
Of course you would like to think there was also an astute silently tracking them, which should have no issues taking them on.
Under these circumstances, waste of time bothering with a sub. But take a look at my post somewhere below on the reputed Yasen, Steve. As reported, looks it may have not even required a sub of ours. 🤔
Its just a good training op, as it involved both a crusier and destroyer. Way better to practice directly against a potential enemy vessel than again NATO ally ones that you will never have to deal with in practice.
In reality if the Russian ship decided to start a war by attacking its channel escort. It would not matter what ship was sent. By the nature of this activity the ships would be close together and simple use of a medium naval gun would mission kill the escorting vessel before it could react. Surprise would be devastating. But actually it’s likely CAMM makes RN vessels particularly deadly within the radar horizon, a 100kg Mach 2-3 missile could mission kill most ships, large numbers are pretty likely to be more than any warship could handle ( each would actually hit… Read more »
Yes, HMS Lancaster fully equipped as heading to join Montrose for forward based Gulf duties. At these ranges, and even further, I be confidant that Sea Ceptor could look after itself and mess with the Ruskies. But as you say, it’s escort duties do no big deal.
Based on their performance in the black sea, the RN could have sent a RHIB and felt pretty confident of our gunning the Russian crusier.
Quote frankly a RFA would have sufficed.
Only a totally suicidal Russian captain would make a hostile act in the Channel or North Sea. These are ‘NATO ponds’ with NATO countries on all sides and dozens of naval vessels and hundreds of warplanes within range.
Exactly, quick call would be strike aircraft on the scene within minutes.
Precisely.
The depth and quality of the response that would be triggered would be immense.
But it’s a Slava……..🤣
No, all that’s required is some form of somewhat visually impressive escort is sent.
If the Russians decided to attack, the escort would almost certainly be sunk, no matter what it was. But very quickly so would the entire Russian convoy. So no one’s going to be firing on anyone.
Isn’t HMNLS Rotterdam an LPD? If so, unusual choice for an escort.
It sounds as if HMNLS Rotterdam was due to leave soon anyway. It’s only escort role anyway.
In honour of the exceptional taste of our Editor, and the hopefully tea drinking Monkey Spanker.
https://youtu.be/pKNfyugr6Ps?t=32
PG tips for me. As for George I’m yet to get an invite to the dark side of Scotland 😂😂
No FFBNW in Russia. Why oh why can’t our ships look like that. Every nook and cranny however small filled with huge, long, long guns and enormous missiles. Can you imagine trying to fit them all in. Enough to take your breath away isn’t it. 😐😐
The reason our ships don’t look like this is because of what happened to the Moskva, one hit and the entire ship starts to go up in flames. Think how much firepower a Ticonderoga carries in two VLS farms all of which is better protected and armoured. The tech in these Russian cruisers in thoroughly 1960’s.
They are still using anti submarine rockets. Imagine trying to fight and Astute or a Virginia like that in the North Atlantic. It’s almost laughable.
Ok untill I find a sarcasm emoji to put at the end of a comment i’m done with it. 😗😗
I do hope this is tongue firmly in cheek.
I think so.
He is usually pretty level headed on that issue……!!
👍
This is the sister ship to the Moscow, squeezing weapons into every nook and cranny didn’t help it when it was attacked. So much for the premier air-defence vessel of the Black Sea Fleet. In fact there’s speculation that it was the Ukrainian missiles setting off the Moscow’s munitions that doomed it.
Russia has a thing call FWBNOOW- Fitted With But Not Operational Or Working. When I visited russian warships (in my previous life) the systems where no tied into an integrated command system. It was individual operators passing info over a comms net to a plot board. That was an Udaloy and Sov class destroyers. Most of the gear was doubled or trebled up for redundancy as reliability and spare parts where a massive issue and a lot of kit simply didn’t work. From leaked Black Sea Fleet reports regarding Moskva nothing has changed in the decades since with kit still… Read more »
Interesting GB and quite the insight as usual mate…
If the Russian fleet is still in such a poor state then those ships’ companies in the Channel will be very well aware of their situation. I would suggest to everyone on here that those crews are going to be very well behaved indeed, unless they have a death wish.
I think I would rather be on the Lancaster even if it came down to using the CAMM in anti-ship mode or the 4.5″ – at least I’d have confidence that they’d work!
Cheers CR
Totally agree.
Sometimes the systems were not even notionally operational…….
Until they get hit by something and it all goes off. Or an Orc has a fag too close.
That would actually be my bigger concern: being anywhere near the floating scrap heap just in case anything did go wrong.
As it stands, the ship is more of a threat to her crew or any harbour, unfortunate enough to allow her to dock, than to any foreign navy.
I do make that last point seriously and it is something that the countries that have allowed refuelling in the past may well have to think about before allowing more refuelling stops?
For all, its full on fit-out, Ukraine took out the Moskva with 2 missiles that were very much like harpoon in capability and warhead size. You would think such a large ship with 3 layers of AA would have easily swattted off the attack.
Well it didn’t: that is proven fact!
You can have as many layers of AA as you like but if they are not coordinated and don’t work then they won’t protect anything from anything.
There is a lot of detail to effective AA learned the hard way in ‘82.
Agree the falklands war led to ciws being purchased plus vls sea wolf and then sea ceptor and camm, aster 30/15, type 45s are a direct result of those learnt lessons. We also learnt about importance of generating an adequate carrier air wing. Which is something we need to rectify via additional f35b purchases to ensure British cartier strike can mount effective CAP and prosecution of enemy targets onshore and within the maritime domain. The recent confirmation of 26/27 more F35Bs is good news but is pretty much the minimum needed to ensure a soverign single QE class can deploy… Read more »
There is confirmation of about 70 F35B now according to Radakind and Wallace.
As Truss is saying budget increase I think that is reasonably secure.
Compared to anyone other than USA 70 F35B is the strongest air force known to man in its own right.
Ssssssh
Saying we don’t need 500 F35B won’t be popular on here!!
The top trumps numbers game against Russian kit is totally over so it is a stand alone calculation if a coherent force in view of likely taskings.
As a few of us keep bleating that we won’t be fighting X, Y or Z on our own. NATO is a thing. AUKUS is a thing.
It’s actually a 1000, you forgot the Chinese.
Silly me.
The Moskva’s sinking was really interesting. CIWS tied too central radar suite. No independent stand alone ciws like phalanx or goalkeeper. Thus when the threat axis radar was lulled away by a Ukranian drone. Working off a 150-180 degree arc of perceived threat axis the ship didnt see the closing Neptunes. Moskva was also located within a group of Rusdian merchant shipping. No doubt trying to use these ships as a blocking screen. This probably didnt help the Moskvas knackered 1980s unmodernised air defence radar operators trying to distinquish incoming threats from background clutter. Once hit. The plethora of weapons… Read more »
Thus when the threat axis radar was lulled away by a Ukranian drone. Working off a 150-180 degree arc of perceived threat axis the ship didnt see the closing Neptunes. That don’t make any sense. There are 2 big anti aircraft search radars , 1 tracking radar each side for each double CIWS, another tracking radar for the main gun another for the SA-N-6 complex and another 1 tracking radars each side for each SA-N-4 complex. Most likely the 2 big search radars failed. It is 80’s tech but in 2GHz frequency so not ideal for small objects and if… Read more »
Russian Central Radar Suite isn’t what anyone on a NATO ship would understand by that!! If you mean a compartment in this ship with a myriad of consoles and people communicating verbally you would be nearer the mark. UK ships certainly do all that interfacing digitally by the CMS. Even if Phalanx also has a stand alone radar etc. Deconfliction and task assignment is pretty important in dealing with swarms. You don’t want your phalanx shooting down your 40mm shells or the Sea Ceptor launched by the nearby ship!!! It is easy enough to say don’t shoot anything showing Doppler… Read more »
The Marshal Ustinov should not be really judged as being the same standard as the Moskva. It was overhauled in the late 90s and then, unlike the Moskva, had major upgrades over 4 years starting in 2012, including digital command systems. In many respects it is a relatively up to date ship and the RuN don’t seem to show reluctance in sending it on long journeys, without a tug. The other Slava, the Varyag, gets even longer trips.
While it might be in better conditions than Moskva, it is far from good. It has no modern radar, radars are modernized you say, but enough to detect and with reaction times in Fire Control fast enough to detect and fire at a sea skimmer?
No active radar SAM’s, the CIWS are still 80’s not the more modern combo Kasthan missile+CIWS that Russians have in other ships.
Of course we do recall HMS Gloucester downing that Silkworm during GW1, mind – i.e. when Missouri’s CIWS of the time tried to ‘take out’ its own chaff cloud.
South Atlantic had taught us the painful lessons that only war can. GW1 (and Missouri) the immediate beneficiaries. ‘Luckily’, perhaps, Russia’s exposure is reminding us all over again of those lessons. This time without the UK personal pain level, if our latest Downing Street crowd Walk as well as Talk.
To be continued…….
Just why are these allowed through our waters they would have sunk ours
Like they sank our T45? This is allowed and they are in transit.
We should have at least harrassed them. Like they do to any ship closing on their shoreline. A few F35Bs directly overflying whilst not being detected would have been fun to see but knowing the crap training and frankly rubbish professional standards within the Rusdisn armed forces the tisk of a miscalculation from Russia’s side is high. Therefore unless we are actively at war let the rust bucket death trap sail on by.
You don’t want to fly your F35B in full stealth mode near an S300 radar. Would give them an ECM field day
Disagree. Should not be necessary for professional Navies. One could better argue that Russia’s ‘tendencies’ towards unprovoked aggression serve her no benefit. I’d go so far as to iterate that the West is currently gaining valuable political, military and economic foresight at Putin’s, and his benighted country’s, expense. Ukraine pays the real cost here. But she will come out of this with a very clear national identity, at least. And many new friends. Difficult to think of ANY aspect of ”Putin”s Aims’ that accrue from this, quite the opposite. More so again in relation to Russian diminution. Unless hankering for… Read more »
Surely the Russki ships are in international waters!
So a British ship that’s not going to do anything hostile escorted a Russian ship that’s not going to do anything hostile. Got it.
Golly you mean we weren’t ever going to have a shoot out in the channel?
More like England isn’t going to risk turning into a ash pile and pissing off all their friends by sinking a Russian ship and starting WWIII. And the Russian ship wasn’t going to risk pissing off the US military and becoming a ash pile starting WWIII by sinking the British ship.
England does not have any nuclear weapons.
You what?
Legally they are the UK’s not England’s.
Not really anyway but it seems like Silver is suggesting that Britain is incapable of defending itself since it would fear being turned to ash? And then, Jim claims that England doesn’t have nuclear weapons.
England does not have any nuclear weapons just like Texas does not have any nuclear weapons. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has nuclear weapons and they are all stored in Scotland so England definitely does not have nuclear weapons. Technically England does not even have a government either so I’m not sure if England actually has the ability to own anything much less nuclear weapons.
The UK warheads are maintained in Berkshire. There is some storage there too.
Apart from those at Burghfeld or in transit and stored at 2 other locations in England.
This is the UK Defence Journal, not the English Defence Journal….
Who’s going to turn into an ash pile??
Separately, I note that NATO is claiming it has tracked the, likely, Severdonesk from Portugal to the eastern Med / Tartus for the first time by combining both surface and air assets. Yasen Class among Putin’s most advanced subs, of course.
Even the Yasen class is actual a USSR designed boat, design was from the late seventies and early eights, with construction of the class started in the early 1990s. So actually more likely a contemporary of a trafalgar than an Astute.
Certainly likeliest equivalent, Jonathan, though not in service until mid 2010s. But I gather that’s about as good as it gets for Russian subs, ’til the Laikas at least By the way, sorry, should have said name is Severodvinsk, not as above.
But many seem to give the impression we’re doomed because we haven’t sent the vessel they would. Beforehand, it would have been an OPV, as like as not. Still no issue even then, though.
Mhm, not quite sure the Russians would yet call a boat the Severodonetsk 😂 Might do it anyway soon to try and get their point across that “it’s theirs”.
Yes, somewhat unfortunate slip on my part. In touch with my Freudian Russian? On balance, I’m sure Putin would like to name everything ‘Sever’ something-or-other. ☺
There is a limit to reheating old stuff.
There will be fundamentally limiting technology built into and designed into it. Computer modelling didn’t exist then as we know it.
You also have the very poor training and maintenance. And, as well all know, subs require excellent maintenance with well matched parts to spec to be quiet.
Training and maintenance is their biggest issue I think. Like the US is still using stuff from the 60s and 80s and the stuff is still effective. But the US service personnel maintain and train with their stuff.
More like early LA class or Swiftsure class.
She will be being trailed by a virginia or sea wolf or perhaps the new french Suffren. I dont think the Yassen class is all that quiet.
You would be wrong in your assessment of how quiet the Yassen class actually are Mr Bell! Ever since the mid to late 90’s, the Russians have markedly closed the ‘acoustic advantage’ that the West used to enjoy. You can thank a certain Mr Walker for that. Really from the late V3’s onwards through the A/S/O classes in the SSN/GN world they are considerably closer in terms of acoustic quietness to our own SMs. The fact that we can trail them over distances is down to NATO’s considerable ASW assets, trg and C+C organisation. It costs lots of money, but… Read more »
Sorry. Mid to late 80’s, Not 90’s.
Looking at the state of all the tech the Orcs can produce I doubt it. I’m sure western navies let them think they can’t be heard. Orcs flying around using car sat nav to drop bombs don’t strike me as being able to build super quiet nuclear reactors.
You are of course free to doubt whatever you wish Jim and rightly so, however. I will say that my experiences with regard to how quiet they are might well be different from yours.
As a general point, just as stealth aircraft are often flown with radar reflectors to mask their true stealth, is it logical to think that submarines would do the same when traversing areas where they know there is a high chance they will be detected?
Not really.
It would then be very easy to trail them and figure out the real acoustic signature.
As a general reply, Submariners hate making noise of any sort for any reason!
Whilst what you allude to is entirely possible, that’s not the general experience of playing with Russian SM’s, whatever type.
Hi, John good to see you back, we were all worried that you had been sent to the front in the special military operation. I have never heard this before but it makes sense to me now. This is why all Russian and Chinese aircraft that claim to be stealthy have massive RCS and why all their submarines are so loud. They are tricking us in peace time and as soon as the war happens their submarines will instantly become quiet and their aircraft will disappear from radar. Thank you for clearing this up. I thought that all their technology… Read more »
Where’s a like button when you want it?
Ha ha ha!!!
Sub brief on you tube said that The sub was very quiet when launched but the get louder over time due to less maintenance compared to western subs. I will bow to your experience deep. Closest I’ve been to an operational sub is watching red October.
There may well be some truth in that.
Quiet subs require well matched (mechanically, acoustically and EM matched) and finely machined components.
A lot of the parts will have come from Ukraine……that was where heavy and high tech industry was!
Hi MS, what you have said is very true, as is the fact that this is true of any SM over time. Then it comes down to maintenance as you say. We spend lots and lots of money in this area to keep noise levels as low as possible, regularly visiting the noise ranges to check our signature. We also when possible, play against each other, with the exercises reconstructed shore side, which includes the acoustic signatures and detection/tracking sources. Sometimes these signatures are artificially enhanced to aid training, sometimes not. Whilst the Russians may well struggle with maintenance/spares across… Read more »
Sub brief is the best navy porn on YT.
An integrated acoustic/sonar picture is going to be more effective than solo assets.
Absolutely, but sometimes all you have is a solo asset in contact, whether airborne, ship or SM. Getting them all to the party can be challenging!
Deep, the launch videos/pics of the Yasen showed that it still uses a propeller compared to a pumpjet. What are your thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of still running a fixed pitch propeller on a sub?
Hi mate, its really a case of ‘horses for courses’ and how big your pockets are. Generally speaking a pumpjet arrangement is more complex to install, significantly heavier than a propeller and more expensive to fit. Although the blades are better protected by the shroud that surrounds it. Due to the weight issue, they aren’t really suitable for small SMs such as SSKs etc or even smallish SSNs – eg Rubis size. Although I think that the Russians do have a pumpjet fitted to a Kilo SSK as an experiment! What pumpjets give you, is the ability to go fast… Read more »
Cheers Deep. I guess where the Yasen has been operating in the Black Sea being relatively shallow, a pump jet would be more of a hindrance than a benefit. Does make you think about what type of sub we need for the North Sea and around the coastline. Something that the Astutes aren’t really suited for.
I take it we don’t use variable pitch props due to their complexity?
Hi Davey, I’m afraid I’ve not really been following the Yasen story, just what I’ve seen posted on this thread. I don’t think she will have been in the Black Sea, not seen anything about her transitting the Turkish Straits. Don’t think that she would have risked a dived entrance/exit of the Dardenalles, far to shallow and twisty. More likely be operating in the Eastern Med if she’s been to Tartus. The North sea is relatively shallow as seas go, only really deep around the Norwegian coast, if we were to put SMs there or indeed our coast, we would… Read more »
No worries mate. I may have been mistaken regarding a Yasen in the Black Sea. There was definitely one in the Med though. Looking at the Black Sea Fleets order of battle they only use the improved Kilos. Which I guess is due to their smaller size. I have wondered why we don’t use variable pitch props on ships. My mate bought a second hand sunseeker when he got out of the Navy. Sailed it from Plymouth to Falmouth. It had a pair of monster Volvos powering a pair of VPP. This thing bloody flew. I wasn’t much help, as… Read more »
The 80’s were a very long time ago and while the US and the UK have moved on substantially in 40 years the Russians have achieved very little in acoustic reduction since then. They are still having issues on basic noise reduction tech like pump jets that have become NATO standard. They barley have AIP. In terms of SONAR, 2076 is so far ahead of anything they can dream of its practically like magic to them. The computing power required for very advanced sonar is now so far out of their reach it’s like watching monkeys trying to find subs… Read more »
I think you may well find that the Russians have also moved on fairly substantially wrt signature reduction over the last 40 odd years, aided in no small part by a Mr Walker – cut some 15 years of development time in one go! You may not like the fact, or wish to believe it, but the Yasens are quiet units, perhaps not up to current US/UK standards, but quiet nevertheless. Despite what some have posted, no SM Capt knowingly sails with a vessel any noisier than it needs to be. Artificially enhanced signature or not. Your new big mate… Read more »
Again, Walker spy ring was a very long time ago 1985, the current generation of SSN’s were designed decades later. Also I take the point that AIP is not everything especially if your Japanese and can make really good LI batteries however no serious country producing SSK’s does not use AIP. I’m not buying the Orcs having super submarine tech but are hitting at the same level as North Korea with lead acid batteries. Platforms like Kilo are old and outdated. Their reputation is based largely on daily mail headlines and admiral west’s recollections which are increasingly dated. The US,… Read more »
I think Russian subs is the one area they have kept in an ok state. Maybe after Kursk they gave it high priority.
The pump jet kilo I think has been recommissioned and is part of the Black Sea fleet now.
Yes, their SM service and Strategic rocket forces have always been high on their priority list, and have always drawn favourable funding when compared to the rest of their armed forces.
Believe you are correct WRT the whereabouts of the pumpjet fitted Kilo.
Funny we thought much the same 6 months ago about many of their capabilities and now we find out they have to get microprocessors from used dishwashers. Russias military budget is tiny compared to the level of forces they claim to have. It’s much more likely that their submarine force is just as useless now as the rest of the crap they have and even their strategic rocket forces are highly suspect. Nuclear weapons and missiles are incredible expensive and difficult to maintain, especially if you have not conducted tests for decades. Look at the massive cost the US DOE… Read more »
Hi Jim, I do get where you are coming from fella, and some of what you say I agree with. However, some I don’t, largely due to different experiences shall we say! Like lots on here, much is supposition, guess work with a mild sprinkling of wishful thinking. Not altogether bad or perhaps too far wrong, but not always correct either. You have been vary dismissive of the Russian SM fleet in general and both the Yasan and Kilo class in particular. Whilst both are older designs, the Kilo the oldest of the two, both are still effective units. Granted… Read more »
Yes unfortunately USN didn’t have an opportunity to “liquidate* Walker. With compressed air. From a torpedo tube. At maximum firing depth.
Yes, know what you mean, we’ve had more than our fair share of undesirable turncoats too. The majority of which didn’t receive what one might term their just reward!
All depends if the Russian sub was trying to stay hidden or not. It would be quiet easy to track even the most advanced US subs if they spend a lot of time on the surface.
True, but SSNs as a rule don’t generally spend a lot of time on the surface. They can transit much faster when dived, when deploying the more time in transit equates to less time on station doing whatever you are tasked to do.
Do we know yet what Lancaster will be testing at REP(MUS)?
Didn’t realise we still had an FCS 1 or is a case of whatever RN vessel is available for Channel shadowing
What is FCS1 Tommo?
Do you mean the FRE Fleet Ready Escort?
I understand that, or any vessel nearby can be tasked.
Thanks Daniele for your reply going back a bit during the Cold war A Frigate was always on stand by in Portsmouth ready for any Soviet_ Eastern block Naval vessels that ve ntured into the Channel with the prefix FCS 1 and FCS 2 so there would always be a Frigate on stand by too shadow round the clock the Lads whilst under either FCS 1 or 2 could not travel further than 25 miles from Pompey so as the Ships were at 2hr notice too sail round the clock
Hi mate. Yes, I gathered that is what the FCS1/2 was for.
I was wondering what the “FCS” actually stood for?
Interesting detail about 25 miles. 😀That is quite far.
I thin FCS stool for Fleet Contingency Ship and could be Destroyer or Frigate. At one time I was on a TA frigate and we were combined FCS1/Duty TAPS – another result of Fleet Downsizing because as we were told modern frigates were 5 times more capable than 1960s frigates.
Ah, ok Andy. That fits.
We still have both the FRE and the TAPS for Faslane/Bomber coverage.
Too be honest Daniele all I can recollect was that being on either Hunts or Drstroyers the task never fell on us always a Frigate down by railway Jetty at the entrance to the Dockyard never did enquire what FCS stood for so I won’t speculate on its official title sorry
That’s ok Tommo. I was interested in your Channel East bound westbound comments below, I didn’t know that.
Be nice to have a couple of land based batteries just in case.
You’d need them on all coasts then. I dont think it is necessary. If ww3 kicked off the Russians vessels won’t be sat in the channel, and they’d be negated in hours by air power on all sides.
After that, their ships are constrained by geography in the Baltic, Black Sea, Barents Sea, and the Sea of Japan, while they use submarines and long range missiles.
Do I think we need ASM? Yes, on fast jets.
A containerised system would be useful and could potentially be unmanned like the US are trialling and the Israeli iron Dome. Doesn’t have to be bought up in large numbers but could be forward deployed to hot zones say Falklands if the government down there starts getting more aggressive.
Would be nice for the RAF and navy for that matter too, maybe there is potential for a colab in the future like the CAMM systems? Design a ASM for all three services to share, keep costs down and made in the UK?
I was informed here we had Exocet on Gib once.
Falklands I suppose is a possibility.
Completely agree. Heavyweight ASMs on our escorts is a nice to have, but actually ships don’t generally shoot heavyweight ASMs at each other. The really big capability gap is the air launched ASM, not having that capability for our typhoons is foolish, considering the cost. To be honest any escort based ASM should actually in the first instance be a land attack missile and ASM as an extra. I would also like to see spear 3 on our escorts, as this would be a very good option for both land attack and swarm attack against warships (which will be a… Read more »
Agreed. People don’t seem to realise we put our own vessels in danger positioning them to have an ASM slug fest with the enemy forces ships, say in a possible Russia – NATO war. Never mind the difficulties with targeting OTH. I do not believe that is how the RN operates. What we do need is air launched ASM as you say, I’d rather risk a plane than a ship. Land Attack, yes. I used to be of the camp who believed that role should be the preserve of the SSNs as now, for one reason to save money, but… Read more »
Yes the land attack missiles on escorts is very interesting. I read a really good piece on the fact that US escorts ( the Burke’s) has actually turned into a conventional strategic/geopolitical assets compared to other western nations escorts which are simple navel assets. Its all in the mix of the mark 41 silos containing and unknown threat and tomahawk missiles ability to threaten a nations strategic assets. Simple but no nation can disregard the threat of even a single Burke as it could potentially have a large number of tomahawks and strike and destroy any key asset in that… Read more »
I can shed a little light on that.
After the joys of the Horizon program RN didn’t like the taste of anything Garlic flavoured……
Horizon cost RN dear with running on T42 5-7 years past sell by. This was expensive in itself and stretched other budgets as T42 was crew and fuel hungry.
Also RN had to stretch the £6Bn budget to solo develop Sampson as well as solo develop T45.
You could say that Horizon shaped the surface fleet more than QECs with some validity.
I’m not surprised!
Yup but a multi role land attack AShM ticks both boxes. Personally I do think the lack of land attack missiles is a big gap in RN capability. The issue with AShM is that it is a deterrent for idiots like Iran that might be tempted. I suspect this is why the upgrade to Ceptor was so clear announced. Places like Iran are also likely to use a shore battery so land attack matter. Mad Vlad has shown that semi rational people do go off the rails and make grand miscalculations. So having full spectrum capabilities is an insurance policy… Read more »
We always had the option of fitting a relatively long range ASM to ship, be they T23 or T45 which wasn’t Tomahawk. This was the derivative of Storm Shadow/Scalp-EG the Naval Cruise Missile (NdCM). It is predominantly vertically launched, but can also be submarine launched. However, it can also be cannister launched. On the T23, there would have been the small problem of where to fit the cannisters. On the T45 it would have meant fitting the V70 Sylver strike length launchers instead of the Mk41. I guess having the SSNs to the long-range strike using Tomahawk, stop this option… Read more »
A truck mounted system would only need to be deployed when a ship is nearby. Two trucks and a series of parking spaces around the coast would do. Better still, put them on the QRA Typhoons.
Here’s a question for you Poms.
I assume the border between Britain and France runs approx down the middle of the English Channel (or La Manche, as I understand the Froggies call it), correct?
My question is, when foreign warships transit the channel, do ‘both’ the RN and French Navy monitor/escort ships through the channel?
Do transiting ships stick to the middle? Is there a designated path that ships have to follow?
I would imagine it’s not only the RN that monitors the passage of warships.
Let me know.
Thanks,
Cheers John, Ships passing through the Straits of Dover must follow a defined passage just like that of a Roads marking eastbound ships travel on the northern route west bound ships pass on the southern route , the RN always shadows whilst the French get their Flag ready just incase
Does their flag colour match The White Cliffs of Dover?
I didn’t wish too offend our Garlic friends but Qui ,the French flag is of one colour John
Thanks Tommo,
And yes I understand what you are saying about the Froggies flag too.
As an Aussie it’s always funny to watch the way you Poms and the Froggies throw crap at each other (and let’s not forget Spain too).
Cheers John , I believe that it’s our deep seated hatred of Snails and Frog legs that are the reason for centuries of good old fistie cuffs between Us and them 😀
Mate,
Yes I do understand the very long standing historical issues, but it is funny to watch (by the way, the Frogs hate us now after cancelling the Attack class, shit happens!).
It is next level compared to the crap that we Aussies throw at you Poms, or our Kiwi mates (and other Commonwealth members too).
Of course we are like siblings that beat the crap out of each other at every opportunity, but if someone else ‘outside the family’ picks on us, we band together against the outsider!
Cheers,
Cheers John , for your comment on both how the French now have the Quasimodo (Hump) with our Aussie cousins over their extremely overpriced Subs cancellation and yet they seem to forget that the Flanders countryside is full of ANZAC hero’s it’s a shame as us Anglo speakers our an extended family that are just like that Froggie Novel whose catchphrase was “All for One and One for All “
Hi John, Following up on what Tommo has said and based on various reports I have read my understanding is that any Russian warship in NATO waters of interest (basically anywhere close enough to threaten) is always shadowed by a NATO warship. So if a Russian ship sailed from the Baltic to the Med then the Polish navy would probably pick them up first and hand them over to either the German or Danish navy, who hand them over to the Dutch, who hand them off to the RN, etc, etc… Here in the UK we hear mostly about the… Read more »
Hi CR, thanks mate.
And yes I do understand that various NATO nations track Russian ships as they transit through their areas of interest and responsibilities.
We of course get the occasional PLAN ship sniffing around off our Australian coast.
But what I’m particularly interested in is how the UK and France divide up tracking of Russian ships that transit between their ‘adjoining’ areas of interest.
Is it UK one direction, France the other, month on, month off, or both tracking at the same time?
Cheers,
Hi John, I think the RN tends to cover the English Channel and the French pick up further west and through the Bay of Biscay. This makes sense as the main French base is at Brest whereas the RN has two major bases in the English Channel, plus the French have a larger presence in the Med than the RN does. The latter point has roots in history as the British and French focused their fleets in the North Sea / Western Approaches (RN) and the Med (French Navy) in the run up to WW1 (and I think WW2 as… Read more »
Hi CR,
Thanks for the more detailed answer, yes that makes sense to divide up areas of responsibility for the UK and France, you guys more at one end, the Frogs at the other end.
Thanks again mate!
Cheers,
Bearing in mind the restrictions under which we all operate … you are not wrong.
The Danish navy escorts all warships which travel between the Baltic and the North Sea. The Oresund is a nice narrow channel and they also have available some very interesting kit to help them in their task; many years ago, special deals were done which allowed this kit to be supplied and used outside the US/UK. The very detailed knowledge we have of naval movements in and out of Kaliningrad and St Petersburg appears to be a source of major frustration to the Russians.
Thank you Cedric,
That is very interesting and enlightening. Anything that reminds the Russian Navy that they are operating in a NATO pond is to be welcomed…
Cheers CR
Mind you according to Sky News:-
“Royal Navy cruiser shadows Russian warships through Channel”
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-latest-updates-putin-ally-says-west-is-playing-chess-game-with-death-as-eu-says-gas-deliveries-used-as-a-weapon-12541713
I hadn’t realised that HMS Belfast had been reactivated……
And why not 🤗
Along with Warrior and Victory 😀
https://www.thenational.scot/news/20908851.douglas-ross-clashes-snps-ivan-mckee-uk-defence-journals-george-allison-abuse/ .May not be the best place to ask, but are you OK George?
Just a quick scan of it. What an absolute bell end of a person.
You have my backing George. Your journalism has always been spot on, uses sources etc.
If someone doesn’t like your content they could always just not read it🙈 instead of starting some Twitter spat.
Keyboard warriors really are the worst.
👍 Agree with you there MS They are not only worse they’re also wasting their Mothers electricity if you get my drift
So if you write the truth and it doesn’t suit this is what you get!!
Really pathetic and dangerous.
That’s terrible, hope you are ok George.
George keep up the good work.
Keep posting hard facts like which yard has the contract to build which ship.
Crazy to think people are trying to intimidate you because you are upsetting their bogus/false narrative.
When a comment is listed as accepted, but disappears from a thread, does this implicitly denote loss of favor at court? 😳. Forty lashes at the yardarm or drawn and quartered? Curious…
Happens all the time, I don’t think it’s a moderator thing seems to be an internet thing. Your contributions are very welcome.
Thanks for vote of acceptance! 😊. Ya know, could just be Mad Vlad’s slobbering Orcs screwing around w/ the transatlantic underseas comm cables. 😁
It would not be the first time, the Orcs have been trying to take down UK defence sites since the early 2000’s.
Trolls flagging the comment as “offensive” and it is then taken down. Many of mine have gone and eventually magically reappeared!
So THEY LOST.
Thanks DM, didn’t realize there are multiple plausible explanations.
Whats up with posts disappearing?
Depends what you put in it. There are some that get pulled I think automatically for human review. There are comment moderation policy. I replied to someone few days ago and his original and the reply vanished. They will get checked and I think put back if ok.
Nothing special, we were discussing at air defence capabilities of this ship. Supportive Bloke was part of discussion.
Orcs stealing comments 😀
This appears to be a responsible site. Anything that is flagged is removed and checked by a moderator; it is then removed permanently or re-instated. Flagging a post for no good reason is one way of messing with a discussion, and there exist people who are happy to do this for their own ideological purposes.