British aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales and her jets have been operating in Vest Fjorden in the Arctic Circle.
The image above shows F-35 Lightning jets of 617 Squadron landing back on the carrier at sunset, after a day of sorties, participating in Exercise JOINT WARRIOR.
According to the Ministry of Defence:
“Exercise JOINT WARRIOR is a UK led exercise, which is part of the wider NATO Exercise STEADFAST DEFENDER. Exercise STEADFAST DEFENDER 2024 is the largest NATO exercise in decades. NATO forces will be exercising across multiple regions and in multiple domains (maritime, land, air, space, and cyber).
The vast scale of this exercise will occur over several months and over thousands of kilometres and will involve tens-of-thousands of Allied troops, all showcasing NATO capabilities to deter adversaries and defend allied territory. The fifth-generation F-35B stealth aircraft flew from their home base of RAF Marham, Norfolk, to the North Sea on Monday 19th February 2024.”
The aircraft, capable of fulfilling air-to-air and air-to-ground roles as well as intelligence gathering and electronic warfare, are now under the command of the UK Carrier Strike Group who are also afloat on HMS Prince of Wales.
Good to see but where are the rest? We have thirty available aircraft but only one squadron of eight to be shared between two carriers and the RAF. In war we would be done in a week. Two delivered last year and deliveries overall delayed again so the 2025 target now in doubt..again. Talk now is about havig two squadrons available by 2028 ‘ish. So 16 aircraft in 14 years. No further orders placed so 2035 if they arrive at all? Anybody who is thinking of telling me that there is plenty of time please look around the world first.
Oh no…. You just had to mention that….😂
It’s fine, there is no threat and 8 F35’s are worth thousands of Rusky Migs…. and it was never envisaged having both carriers fully loaded, they just built the two so that one can be used as spares…. It’s true, I read it all on here. 😏
Hi mate. As far as I’m concerned,, they were never going to, beyond an Admirals fantasies and enthusiasts wet dreams, given how HMG treats the military.
I recall the initial speculation, plans called for 4 F35 Sqns.
Where was the airgroup coming from in 2007 when these started build when we had 2 Sea Harrier Sqns being cut, and 3 Harrier GR9 Sqns about to go the same way being removed by the Brown and Cameron governments? Who forms the airgroup in the interim until F35 existed?
It was as unrealistic as 250 Eurofighters for the RAF. I see zero point buying now at high prices to get numbers to the level they should be only to have to spend extra, a lot extra up the road to modify them.
If you were in charge of a finite budget for this capability, what would you do with that reality? And the way they’ve also screwed up the pilot training pipeline with their ridiculous privatisation of everything that moves?
The Labour government funded the carriers, including adding a billion to their cost by slowing down the build ( see DS Hutton ) but did they fund an airgroup too to just sit there? Nope, neither did the Tories.
So where they worth it? Absolutely, given that navies across the world want carriers for what they give you.
Absolutely Daniele. I’m so fed up with this pretence of a government whether Labour or Conservative that we are safe in their hands. They rely on the good will and professionalism of a magnificent military. If recent events over the last couple of years hasn’t shifted this lackadaisical attitude towards the military, what would? All of them except for a few defend UK military.
Cheers
George
Mate, you know we have had this conversation many times over the years…It’s pretty much the only subject that we disagree about.
I’m only being Sarky about it nowadays though as i’m resigned to the fact we will never get to see a full load…. It’s just that whilst I agree with you and understand the historical facts, I can’t help questioning just why they were ever built so big with such a capacity and Two of them ………. It’s a bit like a Buying a Double Decker Bus just to drive to work..
As for Typhoon (and Tornado before it), numbers….We are now down to effectively just 70 ish Flyable at present, Is it actually enough ? Who knows…. let’s just see what Tempest numbers turn out like…. There is a certain point at which such lack of numbers can no longer be excused or justified…. even in peacetime surely ?
Cut’s Cut’s and more Cut’s is all I see…. We all know that Cut’s in Numbers of Aircraft and Ships leads to more cuts in Personnel and so on it goes in a downwards spiral…… Maybe i should quit this site and go visit another place…. The Namibia Water Hole Live Cam site on Youtube is rather nice … You get to see lots of Porcupines and Jackals and Giraffes…. I’m there most days now as the HMS Warrior Cam has thrown a bearing !!!
Anyway…. you need to get out more !!!!😆😎😁
Do we disagree though?
I’m against cuts as is the next person. I try to see the positives and other factors as to why this particular situation with F35 rate is happening.
No, I don’t think 70 Typhoon is enough, for a P5 G7 power like the UK. But clearly neither is the Russian bear enough vs Ukraine, given the planes they’re losing and the lack of professionalism and know how they’re displaying, so.
You missed my question on what would you do. Me, I’d do exactly as HMG are doing regards build rate until costs reduce and block 4 is available. Given that the budget has to pay for Successor at the same time.
Any spare money for me goes to getting FSSS in the water, more P8, and more Merlin, as the Russian threat is in submarines and missiles.
I didn’t miss it, I just sort of side stepped it and maybe we don’t disagree but we do come from different angles….. I deffo agree we need to focus more on actual potential threats though… as you know, I’m a huge Merlin Fan and i was agog at the axing of Nimrod and the ten year gap…. Bigger concerns are Fleet numbers even given the current build programme…. Merlin will need replacing too at some point, I just fear that the next bunch of Clowns will just be as bad as all the previous ones.
I’m going to say something and I’m probably going to get hammered left and right over this, but here goes.
We built 2 very capable and comparatively cheap Carriers, they are big, adaptable and have 35/40 years left in them.
But at present we are struggling to field any worthwhile CAG due to the continuing LM shenanigans over the pond with the F35 and in our case the F35B.
IMHO opinion someone should identify which feather headed idiot decided not to just build CATOBAR from the start and behead him/her/they.
There is no planned replacement for this in any project so it is a dead duck.
The only reason we ever went for VTOL was because we wanted carriers on the cheap, and it’s a completely false economy. You get an inferior Aircraft at an exorbitant price which can deliver an inferior payload at less range.
Its simple Physics your Aircraft has to carry the weight of the ability to get from ground to Airborne without Runway. ie lift.
so VTOL is an engineering stupid idea.
So perhaps the time has come to have a step back and rethink.
Go back to plan A and once QE is refitted put her in to maintained reserve. Keep POW online and outfit her with her full complement of CIWS, 30mm and as many F35B as we can muster for a CAG. That releases crews for a Bulwark to reenter service and combined with other units gives the UK a pretty powerful Task Force.
Meanwhile complete the outstanding deliveries of F35B and sniff the wind.
Long term there is no replacement VTOL after F35B so the future is either CATOBAR or STOBAR so start to plan out
how to adapt our carriers accordingly.
IMHO the Ideal solution would be a series of incremental refits and upgrades to a desired level.
Firstly would be to adopt an angled flight deck, that doesn’t affect our existing STOVL capability, but it does make deck handling a damn sight easier.
Secondly would be to fit AAG, that again doesn’t affect our STOVL capability but enables STOBAR.
Thirdly would be dependant on the F35B, if it works out then we are fine, we can expand our numbers but also operate US and French Aircraft in STOBAR mode.
If not we fit enhance the generating capacity of the QE (fit a 3rd MT30 and 2 extra MTU DG sets and add EMAL and go full CATOBAR.£££
This may all sound far fetched but due to the size of the QE and the way they are designed it can be done.
Simple fact is we built a damn great big box of a carrier and need to figure out what to do with it. I look at that design and am gob smacked at just how clever it is, it’s a 100% Electrically driven ship via a distributed set of Generators, GT are fitted above above water in the sponsons under both Bridges, DG are buried right down in the bottom of the hull but still separated.
And before anyone says “Well under the Cameron Govt they tried this and it was unaffordable” I’d say yep ! But that was under a Carrier Alliance which had a short life span and it wasn’t in their interest to do better nor in Thales either.
Oh and Merlin is IMHO the crown jewel of shipborne ASW assets and we need to build on that. As for Nimrod please don’t get me started ! A project managers nightmare, take x number of hand built individual aircraft and try to rebuild them to an enhanced but common advanced standard.
Some bean counter thought it would be cheaper than just building a brand new airframe.
Stupid thing is if they had we would have had an Aircraft way better than the P8.
Good morning Frank,
Damen’s MPSS 7000 design and the larger MPSS 9000 look very interesting, particularly for the launch of drones.
It said in a press release that it has specifically developed the 107 m MPSS for the Portuguese Navy’s requirement for a “truly multi-purpose vessel” designed for oceanic research, search-and-rescue, emergency relief, and naval support operations.
Most notably, it is specifically designed to operate unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) as well as a helicopter from a 91×11 m flight deck, with two lifts to the UAV hangar deck located at the front of its superstructure and the helicopter hangar at the rear.
It will also be able to launch and recover manned, unmanned, and underwater vessels using davits on its stern and on both sides. The company’s larger MPSS 9000 design has a well dock that can accommodate a landing craft.”
Courtesy of Janes Defence
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/naval-weapons/latest/dimdex-2024-portugal-orders-damens-new-drone-carrier
Portuguese Navy signs contract with Damen Shipyards for innovative Multi-Purpose Vessel
Courtesy Of EDR On-Line
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/portuguese-navy-signs-contract-with-damen-shipyards-for-innovative-multi-purpose-vessel
Our other six carriers are stealth carriers, so don’t show up in open sources or photos!
Likewise our main strike wing of 72 F35x are cloaked.😃
The treasury can’t cut them if they can’t find them-cunning plan Baldrick.
The other side to that argument is the more we buy of the current tranche means more planes to spend millions upgrading later to decent spec to use British weapons and have more capabilities
Exactly that. The delay is frustrating, but would be worse in the long run if we had to bring active squadron jets offline for upgrades later on.
It’s a balancing act though – I’d rather have jets which need a software patch than no jets at all. One goes to war with what one has at the time.
True. I guess HMG are privy to a lot more than we are as to whether war really is imminent or many years away, if at all.
They then, on military advice, make that call, while prioritising the NHS, education, benefits, and tax cuts!! 😆
You guess wrong , have you ever met MPs ..I have as part of a previous job . Thick as a brick and clueless the vast majority are ..HMG are not privy to much ..
I don’t guess wrong at all Jason.
We are part of the UKUSA agreement and our intelligence community, SS, SIS, GCHQ, DI, co operate hand in glove with the US Intelligence community and also with AUS, CAN, NZ. The product of that goes to the armed forces and to government via the JIC and other channels.
Whether MPs are thick or not, ( Diane Abbott ) they are briefed, so can make decisions. So they are privy to information. I’m talking about ministers not just MPs. What they do with that, or not, is for them.
Considering the PM is briefed by C every Thursday and I’d read by the DGSS every Wednesday, I’m inclined to disagree with you!
Go have a look what is at RAF Wyton and come back and tell me HMG are not privy to classified information. Ourselves and the US were warning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine before any one else.
👍
That I certainly agree with.
That said, it’s not simply a software patch- it’s quite a significant amount of hardware too- central processor, the DAS system, a bunch of the wiring (I think), and potentially more. We’d have to ship them back to the States for heavy re-work, and would likely take months.
As Daniele says below, the MOD will have a better grasp on this, but I don’t see war as imminent; I see our need to prepare for a war as critical, because of the lag between getting industry etc. rolling and it being ready is 2-3 years on a good day. If we have to wait to get our F-35s until the second half of the decade, but have them ready to go, then I’m OK with that.
What we should be doing is making sure the Typhoon fleet is able to carry the slack in the meantime, which is a different question.
Agreed..lead times do not allow for enemies and nutters.. Putin..to allow us politely to rearm!…cut the NHS budget which is nearly as high as the Chinese defence budget!..no point in having Education/Health..if you are blown to bits!!!
Absolutely back in the day we use to wait till new platforms were available before retiring the old . Do we have to get Harriers back of the US Marine corps or out of museums to make numbers up 🤗 but really no laughing matter 😞 I don’t know how we’ve got so bad on Defence decisions over the year’s 🙄
Good morning Andrew D, I posted this recently, you might find it interesting.
Congressional Budget Office
Phillip L. Swagel
Director
February 2023
At a Glance
In April 2022, the Congressional Budget Office published Availability and Use of F-35 Fighter Aircraft. That report used data through September 2021, the last month of fiscal year 2021. This update incorporates data for fiscal year 2022 and employs CBO’s recently developed approach for measuring the effects of ageing on aircraft.
Availability and Use in Fiscal Year 2022.
In 2022, F-35Cs’ availability and flying hours per aircraft exceeded those of F-35As and F-35Bs. F-35Cs’ availability increased in 2022; F-35As’ and F-35Bs’ availability decreased. Flying hours per aircraft increased slightly for all three fleets.
Full Mission Availability Rates
.
F-35As have had greater full-mission availability rates than F-35Bs and F-35Cs. Full mission availability rates reflect aircraft’s ability to perform all—not just one or more—of their designated missions.
Effects of Aging.
All three F-35 variants have experienced generally declining availability and use with age. However, all three fleets are composed of mostly new aircraft, so estimates of the effects of aging on F-35s are tentative and are subject to change as those aircraft mature.
CBO calculates aircraft availability rates by dividing the number of hours that aircraft are both mission-capable and in the possession of operational squadrons by the total number of aircraft hours for the entire fleet, including aircraft undergoing depot-level maintenance.
(An aircraft is considered mission-capable if it can accomplish at least one of its designated missions.)
Between 2021 and 2022, F-35As’ availability fell by 11 percentage points. F-35Bs’ availability also fell, by 7 percentage points, and F-35Cs’ availability rose by 5 percentage points. In 2022, availability rates ranged from 54 percent for the F-35A and F-35B to 58 percent for the F-35C.
Since 2019, F-35Cs have flown more hours, on average, than F-35As or F-35Bs. For all three variants, flying hours per aircraft increased slightly between 2021 and 2022.
Since 2016, full mission availability rates have been considerably greater for F-35As than for F-35Bs or F-35Cs. It has been common for F-35Bs and F-35Cs to be capable of performing one or more, but not all, of their tasked missions.
Effects of Ageing
In a recent report, CBO analyzed how the availability and use of other DoD aircraft have evolved as those aircraft have aged. Compared with those aircraft, DoD’s F-35 fleet is very new: 87 of the aircraft began operation during fiscal year 2022, and as of September 2022, more than half of the 532 F-35s in DoD’s possession had operated for less than four full years. Only 44 aircraft were in their 10th or later year of operation.
As in its earlier analysis, for each F-35 variant, CBO estimated the relationships between aircraft’s age (measured in months since the aircraft commenced operation) and their availability and use.
The resulting best-fit curves, below, show smoothed portrayals of the observed relationships. CBO used a flexible functional form (including squared and cubed terms) that allowed estimated rates to increase or decrease with the aircraft’s age.
In its earlier analysis, to reduce the potential for unrepresentative results and other problems associated with small sample sizes, CBO generally analyzed aircraft only at ages (in years) at which at least 70 percent of the fleet had been observed.
However, the youth of the F-35 fleet precluded the use of such a stringent standard. Instead, for F-35s, CBO constrained its analysis to ages at which at least 30 percent of the fleet had been observed. Using that relaxed constraint, CBO was able to estimate five-year aging curves for F-35As and six-year aging curves for F-35Bs and F-35Cs
Use has also trended downward as F-35s have aged, with some upturn for F-35Cs toward age 6.
To date, F-35Bs have had availability rates that are roughly comparable to those of Harriers later in their life, but the F-35Bs’ rates appear to be falling more quickly.
So far, the usage rates of F-35Bs have been below those of Harriers later in their life.
The F-22, like the F-35A, is a stealthy fighter aircraft; the F-15E is not. Stealthy aircraft can be more challenging to maintain. For example, some types of maintenance require the removal of stealthy material to undertake repairs, followed by the stealthy material’s re-installation once repairs are complete. Such additional tasks may lengthen periods in maintenance, adversely affecting an aircraft’s availability.”
Courtesy of the Congressional Budget Office
It’s worth reading in full.
cbo.gov/publication/58942
Pissing on the F-35 again comrade
Looks to me like Phillip L Swagell Director of the Congressional Budget Office is tbh.
Thanks mate real interesting post 👍 🍺
7 delivered last year. The 2nd frontline sqn has formed and is now working up. There are plans to deploy 24 jets in 2025. Over 500 F35s will be in service across EU air arms by 2030. Not including US aircraft. That is a huge deterrent against Russia or any other threat. We wouldn’t be finished in a week. I don’t know how you think conflicts work. You and many others just focus on the simple numbers in front of you. And forget about NATO or how any other conflicts have been operated over the last 30 years. Its not 8 jets against the rest of the world. Its an exercise. Its not worth stretching the rest of the fleet for an exercise off Norway. 32 are now operating out of RAF Marham. They are all conducting training and exercises. This is just one of them.
Good morning Geoff, do we have thirty available UK F-35Bs? It would be very interesting to know what the actual figure is.
Feb 2024
“For the 12-month period ending in September 2023, the F-35 fleet managed to achieve only a 51% average monthly availability rate: Only half of the 628 F-35s delivered to the Department of Defense were ready to perform at any given time during fiscal year 2023.27″
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24409147-fy2023-dote-f-35-annual-report#document/p6/a2429919
Morning Geoffrey.
Where are the rest?
31 aircraft.
8 deployed.
3 in the OEU in the US.
Assume up to 12 in the OCU. might be less.
So 8 left, in maintenance, spare, and so on. 809 NAS has just stood up.
When any military has x number of asset not all are deployed, that’s not how any military works save war. If QEC sailed to war tomorrow, and not am exercise she would have more and the usual procedure goes to the wall. Examples, Invincible carriers got more Harriers in 82 rather than 6, or 8.
As for the slow order, delivery rate, and lack of UK specific weaponry, it’s been explained so many times now here I’m not going to even try beyond the immortal words “Block 4”
Enquiries to Lockheed Martin.
I’m more concerned with less wary stuff like the number of Merlins and the FSSS myself, as they are the real pinch points which cannot be easily mitigated.
Nicely put Daniele.
Hi DM
I do think the sharp end of the RAF has become way to soft though. The retirement of the Typhoon Tranche 1 leaves me uneasy. I believe they airframes haven’t reached 50% of their hours, seems an awful waste of taxpayers cash.
Still I know I’m preaching to the congregation on this ! 😉
I get that they are too expensive to update and it’s uneconomical.
But for God’s sake order another batch to replace them.
Amen to that!
We have 50 Apache and nearly 60 chinooks to operate off the deck not to mention MH2 and mk4, does the lack of Apaches and other helos not come up. It’s not a strike carrier is a floating FOB, it carries the air group it needs for the mission.
USN ARG are still operating harrier, most CVN’s can’t operate F35C yet.
Why is it just the UK that’s has to magically operate dozens of 5th Gen aircraft on day one to be a “proper” navy. Go count the number rafales on CDG on the occasions she is at see.
We already have enough aircraft to surge 24 F35B onboard, if we are in a major operation one carrier will be packed with Chinooks and Apache with no room for F35B. 8 is absolutely fine for NATO training missions.
Spot on mate 👍
Agree.
“Day one” was 7 years ago…. Here we are some 2555 days later and we have 8…… I got to admire your lack of thinking at times. 🙄
nicely put Jim!
We might have to wait a while Geoff.
International F-35 Customers, Your Airplanes Will Be Delayed
“Without the additional test assets and with slips in the delivery schedule for Block 4/TR-3 capabilities, Lockheed Martin’s aircraft delivery schedule appears to be impacted. While that has implications for the U.S. military, it remains logically at the head of the line. Lockheed’s latest foreign customers may not be.
How much of a delay particular customers may face is unknown, probably by Lockheed itself, but the company did not argue the point that F-35s will not be delivered on time in some cases.
I specifically asked Lockheed F-35 program representatives what it is telling its international customers with fast-approaching delivery dates (Canada, Czech Republic, Switzerland, etc.) about their production allotments and delivery schedules.
In a separate emailed response, a Lockheed spokesperson relayed its statement that “Impacts will be informed based on the remaining TR-3 test schedule, and customers impacted in 2024 are aware of the delivery delays.”
While Lockheed did not specifically say so, it’s reasonable to assume that customers with delivery dates in 2025 through 2030 and possibly beyond may need to be aware of delivery delays, TR-3 and Block 4 upgrade completion notwithstanding.”
There are some useful links in the article worth reading too.
Courtesy Of Forbes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2023/12/19/international-f-35-customers-your-airplanes-will-be-delayed/
I share your concerns of course but delays and problems with the F35 is a very dangerous thing to say here.😉. Given the problems we are having now and the likelihood that there will be no more money forthcoming we desperately need some joine up thinking. Call me a heretic but I’ve always believed that defence policy should follow foreign policy. In other words we decide what we want to do and then buy the equipment to get the job done. We haven’t done this for decades, but we are going to have to do it very soon.
Agreed!
Chris H would have been all over this….. Wonder where he went ? 🤔
Shows you’re an old timer mate with that name from the past.
Lol…. He was as prolific as Jim !!!! 😄
There is a huge unknown over F35 delivery this year. Lockheed revealed much in their corporate statement. For me left a whole lot out. Ambiguous to so the least. In third quarter they expect to resume delivering. By then they say there could be as many 120 parked up at Fort Worth.Again though they are not saying where the are keeping them. The 21 outstanding from last year will be in that number. They figure at the moment is around high sixties awaiting the upgrade. Lockhead chairman also stated a maximum of 110 will be delivered in 2024. We have no indication of the split by type.As a nation we are only intrested in the B.
Will Lockhead do the honourable thing and be even handed with delivering. Are we withholding payments like the DOD for late delivery.
What will the knock be for Tranche 4. So your numbers and dates are speculation and I would not disagree with them. I would place a caveat to that however, ” subject to change” and possibly a negative one.
7 delivered to the UK last year. As planned.
I think something like 94 delivered world wide in 2023. 7 as you say to UK
Two questions how many are we supposed to get this year.
How many will we get. For my money the answer to the last question is none.
Only five of the seven delivered last year due to the delay of the TR3 upgrade not sorted out on the block 15 onwards. Four more due this year so hopefully it means it will be six to get back on track and then the last seven next year. That will make it to the 48 of the first trench -1 that was lost off QE
I don’t think we will get any this year . No delivery to anybody until Q3 this year. So possibly July onwards. By Lockheeds own forecast. DOD hitting them with 7 million dollar per plane for late delivery. Which explains the 400 million provision in their earnings forecast. Which is why I say we have to hope Lockheed do the decent thing and do delivery fairly. Money and DOD pressure may see US designated air frames prioritised. Our two are part of the 21 at Fort Worth held back from last year. A chance we might see them before Christmas. My money is in none this year.
I’m in a tendency to agree with you. Let’s hope LM get a grip and get things sorted and we might be very lucky and get at least the the over due and maybe by a miracle a second two, after all we are teir 1 partners so should be fist in the quew behind the USMC 🤞
You would like to hope. I guess it’s a case of who sets the priorities. Only two possible inputs from what I can see. LM and DOD. Not sure we will be consulted.
I think you’ll find that there were only five (ZM165 – ZM169) block 13’s & 14’s. The other two block 15’s have the TR3 upgrade and they are still unavailable to anyone until at least May/June
They will be worth the wait. 👍
Devils advocate here ( again ) I went on Northern Merger a few times. Dispersed Harriers all over the shop. Now is there a lesson to be learned? I openly admit these carriers, to me and others, are an expensive hobby. And, unreliable so far. Surely for our theatre of operations, with the kit we have ( not dream about ) dispersal of these, erm, “advanced” jets is just as effective as having a fat target at sea in what are really Nato waters. I think it rolls into the arguments raging about being realistic about our role in the world. Lockheed have proved unreliable. The “A” model would arguably suit RAF needs better. And, as all things Americans supply, there are caveats and severe limitations on what they will allow on their provided kit. Lit a blue touch paper I know, but frankly I see the UK as a European power within Nato, acting with Nato and within a specified geographical area. Doris Johnson and dreams of the Pacrim were, after all, just dreams.
Lot of truth in there John, even if I don’t agree with all of it. They were built as power projection assets for expeditionary ops beyond Europe that we so often get involved with which other European nations rarely do. The Pacific thing is primarily about trade, AUKUS, GCAP, and so on. There is no “tilt” as BJ said militarily as beyond 2 more OPV we have the same assets out there as we have had for decades.
Other European powers within NATO have carriers too. France, Italy for example. It is not the carrier at fault but how you wish to use air power.
I think you’re right concerning “our role in the world” as these are strategic assets. Thatvis for HMG to decide and a lot changes over the time it takes to rebuild this capability. You might not need them for Norway, that does not mean they’re not relevant elsewhere.
Appreciate your views Daniele, you always make me think. I see the point in Spain and Italy going for a smaller vessel. It suits their needs. Maybe that is what is behind my thinking, something Invincible size would seem to suit us better now imo. I am not a fan of Doris or any politician to be honest. They have screwed around with our capabilities for decades and left some appalling capability gaps. One sad but beneficial result of Ukraine is that it has focussed European thinking again. In reality The Bear never went away, it was in slumber. At least now with Finland and Sweden on board, Poland focussed, Nato has some very credible assets. I just hope a future UK government does not sit on its hands because of this. Best wishes.
Neither am I! From 97 to now our forces have been decimated. No question that we lack capability, a logistic tail, professionalism, or ability. We lack mass, and as you say some gapped capabilities.
Until the general public take defence more seriously, which I doubt they will, or the military get defeated somewhere, then the politicians won’t change.
And look at the populace. Those who lived through wars are passing on. My generation who lived through the Cold War are aware. Younger generations who did not see these things I doubt have such awareness. And why should they if the teaching system does not install that regard or respect for the forces in them? Then you have mass migration. How many of these economic migrants coming to Europe and to our country rate the military as a concern? I’d bet close to zero. So there is no interest and until a war breaks out and the recriminations start it’s not changing.
Shame.
Truth in every word there. I fear also for the strong probability of serious civil unrest here. The population is becoming polarised more every year. As for the “imports”? It is happening Europe wide and Putin will facilitate that and weaponize it. NI showed us that when brought in as a policing method, troops soon become a symbol of hate for the very people they were brought in to protect. I would hate to see British soldiers ever put in that position again. There are some really good “aware” younger people. Sadly as you point out, there is a majority who have no awareness of reality. After all, over two hundred thousand not working because they are not mentally robust? Speaks volumes.
Hell Danielle- Happy Friday mate. I think your analysis is very much on point. I probably sound like an old F**t, but being now 60 I feel reasonably well experienced to express my concerns.
It seems the selfless sacrifice of the older generation in WW2 is relegated to the dusty pages oh history. Most (but not all) of the younger generation seem self obsessed, fixated on gratification. They attempt to offset with some sense of “social justice” and gabbling on about the climate crisis. All of this hypocrisy amidst their consumption of resources ( consumer crap) than we ever did at their age- ahh that’s progress “Bro”
I believe immigration has many advantages, but logically it should be managed. The vast majority of the current wave are opportunists. It’s time for Japan and China to pick up their share of refugees. They bemoan their falling populations yet do nothing in taking in “migrants”.
Anyhow, rant over’… oh no. I’ve turned into my grandfather!😚
Hi Chris mate.
I agree. My father was a migrant too. Difference is he could not come here unless he had a job already offered.
Most are economic migrants but the left scream race at any peep of objection at the number.
So people keep quiet, and the resentment grows.
cheers Bud have a good weekend!👌
However sound minded the decision seems on the surface, waiting for Tranche 4 updates is a convenient excuse for the Treasury. This government simply refuses to allocate sufficient budgets for the tasks it asks the three branches to carry out. Strategic decision making in Whitehall when it comes to defence is f*cking atrocious. It does not exist.
Every defence review carried out since 2010 has been a ‘what do we need to cut to get within this budget’ fiasco, as opposed to ‘what do we want our armed forces to be capable of’. Then allocating sufficient funding and strategic procurement plans. Spaffing billions on f*ck ups left, right and centre.
They are more interested in creating a few jobs off the back on industry, as opposed to effecting real dynamic change in procurement. With real term effects on the battlefield.
I hate the man, but everyone laughed Dominic Cummings out of Downing Street when he said small man portable drones were the future of modern warfare. How right he was.
Stale institutions, with narrow minded top brass, and leeching politicians are to blame for the state of the forces. Every single one more interested in their own ambitions as opposed to serving the cause.
We’d be out of ammunition, short on logistics and completely un-manoeuvrable in a shooting war with a near peer state. We’d struggle to deploy 10,000 fighting soldiers on a battlefield right now, and sustain them for more than a few week in high intensity fighting.
I have the utmost respect for the guys and girls that serve, I was one of them, but plucky British courage will mean f*ck all when 6 weeks deep in to a conflict, all the smart ammo is gone, and Vlad is raining down dumb artillery rounds in their thousands per day, on a few thinly spread, lightly armed riflemen.
Zero depth of manpower, zero depth of equipment, zero depth of ammunition and zero depth of f*cks given in Whitehall.
The scale of casualties that could be expected in such a war, is not something this country has seen in generations.
Not acting alone, NATO blah, blah, blah arguments are the exact reason we are also in this mess. Expecting the US to foot the bill in treasure and blood on foreign European soil. 90% of NATO would be in the exact same position as us within a few weeks/months.
For the guys who managed to survive such a deployment, they can be welcomed back to their tiny, damp riddle squat pads by self w*nking, back patting politicians, all high fiving themselves for a job well done.
Afghan was rough enough, fighting farmers with uncontested airspace and hardly any deep fires capability from the enemy. Makes my piss boil the state things have been allowed to wither to.
Anyway, rant over. I’m going to have a cup of tea and a hob nob!
Good idea – me too!
Good rant Weston, succinctly covering most issues affecting Defense. The mentality of “Defense doesn’t win votes” has to stop. Defense really needs ring-fencing but whether this means managed by a cross-party committee, I’m not sure that would work but, whoever manages defense matters needs to have your comment “what do we want our armed forces to be capable of” as the overall objective that needs meeting.
Excellent rant mate.
Sorry but I’m not going to reply to all individually, mainly because I can sum up with most saying as expected ” No,rush, plenty for an exercise, we don’t want to spend money updating, and so on”. I do get angry with this I’m afraid. It’s a bit like John Wayne saying “I’ve got one bullet in my gun to stop this gang of baddies but that’s okay. I don’t suppose I’ll need two”🙃
That is an extremely simplified view of a very technical subject Geoff. We are not the US Navy. And you are massively underestimating the capability of F35 and the carrier as a whole. We are not going to put 36 jets on the carrier everytime it leaves the wall just to keep people like you happy. Did you moan when we only put 8 sea Harriers to sea for an exercise? or because social media wasn’t around then, you didn’t know about it. More F35s are coming. You know full well the reasons why the slow delivery rate. This is an extremely complex aircraft, with a level of capability the UK Armed Force’s haven’t had before. So maybe try and understand the capability. Instead of ranting over things you have zero control over. These aircraft put us at the top of the tree alongside US capability. Other nations want the same. Hence why so many are ordering F35. Any major conflict would be part of NATO or a coalition, like the Gulf wars ect.
I’m sorry Robert but I am not going to stop “ranting” as you put it because if I do stop demanding the best for our services I might as well not comment at all. I respect your right to reply, of course but you are giving me the same excuses as you were giving me four years ago and I have stated my argument against them ad nauseum. Meanwhile we move forward at a snail’s pace.
And I get the same narrow-minded reply, Geoff. You, like some others, are just obsessed with numbers. And don’t take account of capability gains. We have the world’s most advanced and capable 5th gen fast jet on the planet operating from our Carrier’s. The numbers are increasing. We operate a tailored air group. We will not deploy 24 or 36 F35s every time the carrier deploys, even if we had 150 F35B’s in service today. Those 8 F35B’s will generate a very impressive sortie rate. And provide 5th gen capability across the full spectrum of capabilities. I will repeat. Its isn’t going to be 8 F35B’s against the rest of the world. Look at the coalition air campaigns from both gulf wars and every other conflict since th³e fall of the Berlin Wall. Capability is everything. It trumps numbers every single time. That’s why the subject matter experts go for top end capability. I just can’t help but feel Geoff, that when the day comes we do put 24 jets to sea or more, you will still find something to moan about. The work and effort that goes into these deployments is immense.
Oh Robert. why is it that you can’t have an exchange of words without reverting to abuse One minute I’m “ranting”, now I’m “narrow minded”, soon apparently I will be “moaning” . Through all this you have but one argument and that is “everything is fine” Well, I’m afraid things are not alright, otherwise we wouldn’t be constantly reading articles like the ones in UKDJ today saying they are not.
I am very aware that not everything is fine, Geoff, especially with recruitment and retention. But you will find exactly the same problems facing Armed Force’s across the EU and the US. So it isn’t just a British problem like you like to make out. The days of having 20 + fast jet sqns are over. There is a huge amount of good news in defence. But bad news sells, I’m afraid and creates comments. If you could spend just one afternoon watching operations on that flight deck of POW, you would come away with a far greater understanding of the complexity, capability, and the shear number of sorties that can be generated from what looks like a small number of aircraft than you will ever get reading article’s on UKDJ. You do moan Geoff, constantly. I know you care, but defence is complex, and the decisions made are not easy ones, especially when set against the wider problems facing the economy. We will not lose a conflict in a week, as you have stated before. Sating things like that does show a total lack of understanding of how global politics works, or NATO or why we work with allies so much. Who are even more dependant on us than we are on them. The RN uses allies Navy’s support for replenishment at sea, for example. Reading UKDJ articles, you would think this was a new thing. The reality is that we have been doing this for years. Just as our our RFA has supplied our allies for years as well, including many US Navy warships. Slow procurement of F35 is frustrating, but this aircraft will be in service for the next 40+ years. What we are doing today is building the foundation for that long-term 5th gen capability. Russia’s performance in Ukraine has demonstrated that we and NATO have overwhelming capabilities to counter any Russia threat today. They have not achieved air superiority which say alot about Russian fast jet capability. Our Typhoons, F35s, Gripen’s, Rafales, F22’s, F15EX, F16’s, B2, B1B’s Strike Eagles would make mince meat of any Russia adventures. Because that is what they are up against, and a lot more than that. We would not be doing it alone. And because of the capabilitys we possess. We would be at the top of the tree with the US. Put it this way. Having 48 F35’s gives us more influence and capability compared to say having 120 F16’s. With F35 we have first night of war capability. Currently, only the US can do this. With growing F35 numbers across the globe. That’s a lot of nations gaining first night of war capability. Something our foes do not possess.
“Reading UKDJ articles, you would think this was a new thing. The reality is that we have been doing this for years”, eh?
Because its clear some haven’t been following defence news outside of your website for many years. Many of the things that get criticism today. Have been going on for years, mainly because social media wasn’t reporting every move our Armed Force’s make. Like the cries of national outrage and general doom when a technical fault hits one of the carrier’s. The Invincible class had many many breakdowns, late departures, and had to return home early for deployments ect. Same with Nimitz class, same with the french CDG. But people didn’t hear about it then. Now it’s makes headline news like its never happened before and the RN is hugely incompetent. These things happen to all Navy’s and Armed Force’s. But the way its reported now is doing more damage than the reality of the situation deserves.
I’m sorry Robert. Although I read your post but all thoughts of discussion vanished when I read the phrase “same problems facing armed forces across the EU and US”. How many times do I have to explain to you that I am not interested, nor am I able, to comment on whether of not Greece has trouble with a tank. I am intested in ensuring as best I can in the armed forces of MY country and it’s personnel getting the best equipment as quickly as possible. As I have said to you often if we cannot comment on these problems why are any of us posting at all? Surely that is the point of UKDJ.
In passing I have been a guest of her Majesty’s navy on five occassions including on an aircarft carrier.
Sorry…rushing to type. Her Majesty’s Royal Navy.🙄
It does matter. Because it gives context that it isn’t just a British problem. Because people are never happier when they are doing us down.
“people are never happier when they are doing us down” You actually believe that? Why?
Because it’s a British disease Geoff. Look at the articles. A bad news story. 100+ comments. Good news story. 10 or less comments. I apologise for my manner at times Geoff. I know you do mean well.
There is a lot of rubbish in the papers I agree. I’m amazed at the lack of even basic knowleldge, especially in papers like the Telegraph. Very often wall to wall nonsense.. I appreciate your comment Robert. I don’t believe I have ever consciuosly attacked our armed forces and certainly not the personnel who literally put their life on the line on our behalf. I hope that you will take that into account. Hypocricy and stupidity, particularly from the likes of Politicians and civil servants does wind me.
John Wayne was an actor, the men and women out on the Prince of Wales are professional military personnel, trained to be the best and sadly in worst case scenario don’t get a 2nd chance restarting from a mistake. We have too few but we need to cheer on the few that we have rather than criticise their capabilty shortcomings, royal navy, royal air force and British army still among the best.
I thought JW was real. Was he in films then?
Hadn’t finished. Tell me where in the last four years of my posts I have in any way ctiticized our service personnel. It’s because I ceare that all this complaceny gives me the hump.🐫
Think most brits would love to see our Armed Forces be strengthened but the cowards in government sooner spend the cash on chasing dreams, we shudda kept the harriers running till F35 were at full strength, how long that’s gonna take is anybodies guess, pretty sad really hang your head in shame prime minister 😢