WarThunder is a popular MMO military vehicle combat game, one that draws a large and fervent fan base. The game developers also host a forum for fans of the game to talk, and frequently debate, about the specifications and abilities of various vehicles modelled in the game.
Recently, WarThunder has added more historically recent vehicles to the game, ones that remain in service with major armies. This, combined with a fervent, technicality familiar fanbase, has led to a few major leaks of classified technical information, affecting both the Challenger 2 and Leclerc MBTs.
Now the same fate befalls a non-NATO main battle tank. On the 31st of May, images reposted online show that a user posted an image of a Chinese DTC10-125 tungsten penetrator sitting on a technical document describing the specifications of the projectile.
The document, shown above, appears to outline the armour penetration figures against both composite and RHA armour, muzzle velocity at ambient temperature, and dispersion. A technical diagram and handling instructions are also outlined on the document. Some of the information has appeared on the internet before in brochures and claims from the PLA, but this appears to be the first images of internal documentation.
The DTC10-125 can be fired from the ZTZ 96, 96A, 99, 99A, and is one of the PLAs main tank killing rounds.
WarThunder forum moderators quickly removed the post, adding “Materials related to the DTC10-125 are classified in China”. Some reports state that the image has popped up previously on Chinese forums, though this remains unconfirmed due to heavy Chinese internet controls. The document cannot be independently verified at this point, but the projectile resting on it appears to be a genuine DTC10-125.
You can read about a gamer identifying as a Challenger 2 commander posting a classified document online in order to improve the accuracy of the design of the tank by clicking here and you can also read about a French Army tank crewman leaking a portion of the Leclerc Main Battle Tank’s classified manual on the forum by clicking here.
It is indeed regrettable that classified info on the Challenger and Leclerk has been leaked.
However, espionage is a game that all sides play and whoever provided this extremely interesting data on the Chinese DTC10-125 tungsten penetrator should be encouraged to provide further information – to enable the game developers to make their game even more realistic, of course.
I suspect the western armies have had this info from the get go, so its only really the general public that is finding info on the classified material.
I am afraid you do not understand the damage this could do. The fact the West has this information may be very sensitive and put our assets at risk for a game!
If this unauthorised leak comes from a British service man he/she should be dismissed. Also possibly charged under the OSA.
The people who need to be dismissed are the incompetent donkeys running the MoD. Have you seen the latest, absolutely scathing HoC Public Accounts Committee report on the Ajax fiasco?
And you appear to not understand the implications of Rob’s post.
Having classified information on a potential opponents capabilities is of most use when that opponent is unaware that you have it.
Yes Ajax should be scraloed at one and CV99 bought instead…
It seems the intelligence community are full of gammers.
Gammers – the term for people who eat to much gammon 😂😂😂😂😂
or played too much backgammon
Avacado toast and gamming. This is the way!
OT, but more procurement is being delayed as the order for new Chinooks has delayed by 3 years. Chinooks… 2030. BMD… 2029. T45 CAMM… 2027. FC/ASW… 2030. Is there anything we’re actually going to get in time before another war breaks out? Plainly put; it’s shortsighted and idiotic.
We are currently going through austerity, just the government don’t want to call it that becasue Boris partially got to power saying it was a bad policy and didnt’ work. There has been a lot of cuts across the board on the public service and i expect more to come.
I completely agree on the evaluation that this is austerity… but having completed an economics degree at Oxford I should think it’s clear as day to anyone with common sense that now, especially with the world on the brink of a stagflation caused recession, is not the time for any sort of reduced spending. If anything, national spending should increase to provide a further boost to the economy. Particularly in the defence sector, which DOES generate many jobs, is integrated into the larger manufacturing and technology sectors usually develops things that help other parts of the economy (particularly those two), end up utilising or furthering.
The government has as always got themselves into a corner because of all the extreme groups in the backbenchers. They can’t increase tax, they can’t increase borrowing, they can’t admit that brexit isnt’ going to plan, they can’t admit that covid is still around and hitting productivity and so they are stuck having to make shadow cuts hoping no one notices.
They are not in control of events. We seldom are. For the most part we can only react. The government response to Brexit nas been to be positive ( rose tinted specs?); to try to replace the lost exports by resurrecting empire trading relationships and accelerating the growth of high tech jobs by offering preferential immigration terms to highly qualified graduates from overseas. Meanwhile the lorry queues in Kent stretch for miles, UK is being frozen out of the EU Horizon network, we are bulldozing good pork into burial pits and castigating the haulage industry because it doesn’t pay decent wages or provide HGV drivers with decent toilets. Small business with EU export customers are pulling their hair out and the DUP is is being its usual unhelpful self.
I would say that assisted by covid, the biggest benefit of Brexit is that we are being forced to look ourselves in the mirror!
Not entirely true, our economy is suffering the worst of the g7 nations becasue our goverment fails to act constantly. Even a perfect goverment would still be in a similar mess but not as bad. As for resurrecting former ties, the trade deals with have got with Austria/NZ/Canada are worse than they gave the EU, so that worked well.
Your usually topic political rant
Fair point, but it is factual. We have to understand what is going on to understand why delays / cuts happen.
Let’s hope the public sector cuts won’t result in further defence cuts, although giving stuff to ukraine and not replacing it will have same effect of reducing costs.
There is a grain off truth saying that policy is neither clear no consistent
If you want the private sector to invest you need clear signposts that it is safe to do so.
Stealth tax raids are the opposite. Unsubtle hints of how the energy companies should have invested in UK would have done more. Let’s face it with sky high energy prices shareholders are not going to be too concerned about investing in renewables etc and you can make a convincing spreadsheet with valid ROI.
We’re not suffering that badly, let’s not inflate the problem for mere political reasons. We are struggling because of energy policy and failure to invest 20 years ago, in a new fleet of nuclear power stations. The engineering institutions were all warning in 1997 we needed to start planning for this, but it wasn’t until the coalition government that we started to invest.
Canada has its tar shale. The US was a global energy exporter until 2020, Germany is still hooked on Russian energy, France has a very high installed nuclear base. Italy hasn’t grown for most of its membership of the Euro and Japan is only just coming out of 20 lost years and has a debt of 266% of GDP, our is 104% for context.
Moreover, note, our inflation is pretty much the same as the USA’s despite them having a continent of supply and nations such as Spain, the Netherlands and Poland (in the EU) have significantly higher inflation than we do.
Finally, please note who is complaining we are worst in the G7. Up until energy became a critical issue due to Russia’s aggression the UK was the BEST performer in the G7 – was that as well publicised in the BBC and Guardian? Did they contrast our growth with contraction in the US economy in Q1? No, it wasn’t, no they didn’t. But now the energy dynamic has changed and we’ve been hit by it – but I’d rather take the hit than behave like the morally indefensible Germany.
What it is a lesson in is, the need for resilience and diversity in the energy supply mix – the market alone won’t give you that.
US infation is high but so is their GDP growth, ours is barly above pre covid levels, their is over 10% higher. No doubt all nations are suffering, but considering we had less reliance on Russian oil than our european neighbours we should have been suffering less but the reverse is true.
That is because the EU is still using Russian oil and gas and we are not. The EU have decided to keep paying for the Russian war machine while we are not.
The EU have no choice, there is no alternative to piped energy from Russia in the short to medium term. No infrastructure in place and it will cost billions to create it. What is crazy is India buying lots of Russian crude and then selling it into the EU, or cargoes being transhipped at sea to turn it into non Russian. Better still, Poland buying ‘German’ gas when there are no German gas fields.
At least our Government has just given the long delayed OK to a new Shell gas field in the North Sea but we won’t see the gas from it till 2025.
It is not. Our growth rate is in the negative range: -1.4%, for the first quarter of FY22.
Is the capital of Austria still Canberra?
To be honest – I voted for Brexit…for this mess. It was plainly obvious this trouble was going to come but it is a necessary evil, like raising interest rates, to get profligate British industry to wake up.
Productivity has been stagnating for years, investment in the workforce is miserable and conditions haven’t been improving especially well – this after 40 yrs of EU membership. Frankly, I think managers became lazy and the default attitude was to hire a skilled individual from the EU, for less money and ignore the underlying issues.
Making life harder and reducing the easy supply of labour will eventually force industry to respond and invest to boost productivity and improve conditions to keep staff but only if the government doesn’t keep easing conditions and avoiding the day of reckoning.
My fear is the cultural imagination of industry – and the people – is so conformist and adapted to EU membership it will just bicker and complain rather than innovate and invest. If this is the case, there really is no point in Brexit and independence and we should just re-join the EU and embrace full federalism. What’s the point of independence if one is too fearful or narrow minded to embrace it?
Let’s give Brexit a real go and if after 15 years we’re still languishing let’s re-apply but with the solid intention to make the EU work, none of the half hearted nonsense: join the Euro, regionalise the nation, push for federalism and evolve more competences and decisions to Brussels.
I had the pleasure of sharing a flight from Honduras to El Salvador with a Geezer from the British government (we were both flying to meet up with the British embassy there) and he revealed a very interesting snippet about British industry, he stated that we are far too lazy when it comes to trade and expect others to come to us. He cited the Defender, Discovery and Range Rover class of vehicles which research had shown would sell across central and South America, and yet instead of pitching themselves across the region, they expected buyers to come to them, resulting in potential sales going to Americans, Japanese and now the Koreans.
What is more interesting is the political establishment’s response to this (perceived) laziness. Their strategy is based on a combination of incentivising greed and stepping up sanctions. We see a similar approach in the NHS and Education: lots of well paid admin jobs to managers whose job it is to step up and continue the beatings until morale improves. These strategies produce short lived surface improvements, a knighthood for the managers and a spiralling downwards of morale in the workforce.
The problem is not so much with British Industry ( or with British medics and teachers). The problem is a deeply rooted punishment mentality and lack of respect for others within the British political and civil service establishment which imposes a stultifying top down culture on the whole country.
Agree with that as well. Although I’ve not met many lazy healthcare professionals tbh as you need a level of motivation to become one and do the work ( although some get burnt out).
The political establishment treats citizens of the UK in a patronising fashion; as economic machines who generate and/or consume wealth rather than people. I had occasion to write to my MP on the matter of NHS hospital employees having to pay to park their cars for work. Never in my entire working career did I have to pay my employer for the privilege of working. The relationships are ar&se about face.
The thing that gives the game away is the UK’s rejection of EU freedom of movement, a reciprocal construct which formally recognized the worth and dignity of a person, and their skills. Priti Patel is keen to receive ‘the brightest and the best’ immigrants but we are not prepared to give our school children enough to eat so they can learn. Why invest in raising your own talent when you can attract young graduates from the empire who will work for less and become ‘instant taxpayers’ ( and Tory party members of course).
Considering Landrover is owned by Tata, one of the largest companies in the world and Indian, comparing them to british industry is clearly a difficut comparision.
The issue is most of our industry isn’t British its foreign owned and so the idea that british mentality has any sway doesn’t stack up.
Expansion/investments in new countries costs a lot of money and unless a company is sure it will pay off they won’t try. Unforuntely British companies (what is left of them) don’t get fully supported by the government unlike say US, German, France companies (our goverment rarely steps in to protect our companies against take overs etc) and this has been the case for decades, meaning expansion is way more of a risk that it is for other companies.
Equally share holders in the modern era are truely multinational and very few companies have any country ties, they are purely in it for their own shareholders.
I never got the lazyness comments around the uk economy, if you look at countries by gdp per capita, the ones above us are the ones with massive amounts of natural resources or the ones that the governments have massively involved themselves in protecting their industries. It is however something that the media likes to talk about regularly.
We get compared to the US often, but they have way more natural resources than us (plus access to very cheap labour via mexico), and their economy is heavily based on tech companies, which are supported by the US government through tax breaks etc and allowed to grow by anti-competitive practices, through buying out emerging competitors or simply destroying them. Whilst our governments seem to actively encourage foreign investments.
Our economic output is fine, the only way we can improve much is for our government to get involved in protecting our companies like France/Germany/US etc do. Something that EU membership had no impact on, since plenty of EU nations protect their industries.
If only we could avail ourselves to the protections of the WTO’s non [trade] discrimination rules and its already established trade dispute mechanisms to sort out any disproportionate checks by our neighbours but unfortunately the ‘must have’ (aka Benn Act) EU–UK Trade Agreement precludes its use.
The UK isn’t doing bad considering the international headwinds ,UK GDP grew by 0.8% in Q1 22 while the EU grew by 0.4%, the Eurozone grew by 0.3% and the USA’s GDP for Q1 was -1.4%.
No country can afford sustained defence spending if its economy isn’t generating the wealth to do so.
For sure good defence doesn’t come cheap in a democracy. And all economies have been hit hard by covid.
The Benn Act did ensure that parliamentary sovereignty was respected. Boris has a track record of ignoring any rule which gets in his way.
NI was always going to be the pivotal issue. The GFA was signed when both the UK and Ireland were EU members. So far as the protocol is concerned if A=B and B=C then A=C. It’s not rocket science. The EU are within their rights to insist on food and agriculture checks in the Irish Sea. Sovereignty cuts both ways. The fact that they are being difficult is because they don’t trust the UK. The GFA has the status of an international treaty with the US as a guarantor: sometimes you need a friend to tell you when you need to wind your neck in. My grandmother used to say if you don’t bend you break. BJ is about to find out the truth of that.
Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, that the WTO anti trade discrimination rules and processes only apply to its own trade agreements ?
I think we are agreeing that growth = increases government tax revenue, and in Q1 the UK grew faster (0.8%) than both the EU (0.4%) or the USA(-1.4%), though not as fast as Canada whose GDP grew by 1.2%.
The rest of your reply is mission creep but in as far as it concerns the 2019 Benn Act, which I mentioned, I would draw your attention to the 2017 Miller v Government case and the Supreme Courts constitutional definition of who operates on the international plane and who operates on the domestic plane. (No international treaty = parliament wouldn’t be asked to implement obligations contained in a international agreement because no such international agreement would exist).
If we spend more, inflation will rise causing a collapse in consumer demand and eventually recession – with more debt (presumably), and possibly at that time more civil disorder, inflation does seem to have that effect. If we don’t spend a recession will get us earlier but will likely be less onerous than one a little later down the line.
We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t and there will be no soft landing.
Once jobs are being lost, demand is falling and inflation with it, counter-cyclical investment would be sensible but surely not now with the cost of living crisis as it is?
That being said, we do need to get our military numbers up.
It’s basic Keynesian economics, and a recession is always caused by too little spending. Usually, in Western countries with market economies, government spending is too little a proportion of GDP to be able on its own to prevent a recession. However, government spending is often able to stimulate public spending and deliver greater confidence in the economy until consumers regain their will/ability to spend more. A recession that will happen now will be no less onerous than one that happens in a year, but I can tell you that a recession overall is avoidable. Fundamentally, inflation alone is not reason enough and the only way we will get to recession is a) if people think we’re going to have a recession and start saving up, thence spending less, or b) if Russia defaults, the effects are poorly handled and some financial market (just one will suffice) collapses (London, New York, Shanghai are all possible but Frankfurt would be the most likely culprit there).
Spot on. Inflation is caused by too much demand chasing too little supply. If we have a recession it won’t be because of inadaquate demand.
Yes cannot agree more.
Me too but the spending needs to be UK centric, buying US weapons doesn’t really help the UK economy much.
Well, if you’re an Oxford trained economist you may be able to explain why VAT at 20% has lead to the financialisation of the British economy. Reducing that rate would greatly mitigate the working capital requirements of businesses that actually make stuff rather than shuffle paper. Particularly at a time when interest rates may soon offer real returns.
Austerity? so the Government is cutting expenses? the budget is less than last year? The debt is decreasing?
No idea on the expense this year or last, it’s not been published by the ONS. Debt however year is increasing significantly
Let’s hope there’s no serious conflict between now and later on that requires all this delayed equipment! You can ask the simple question, does actually delaying something actually save any real money, if not, then don’t delay it or minimise the delay. There might be other issues but don’t get me (or others here) started on those AShMs! And the T45 24 x CAMM covering over those MK41 slots! They could go with 2 x ExLS and have 48 CAMM! Or, one each, one MK41, one ExLS! Just waiting for the T32 and T83 to be pushed back now.
Some good news albeit 2030-35!
“The United Kingdom is planning to fly the Leonardo European Common Radar System Mark 2 (ECRS Mk2) radar aboard a Eurofighter test aircraft in late 2023, with initial operating capability (IOC) slated for 2030, a Ministry of Defence (MoD) spokesperson said on 24 May.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/c4isr-command-tech/latest/uk-to-fly-eurofighter-ecrs-mk-2-e-scan-radar-in-2023-ioc-slated-for-2030
“BAE Systems expects to fly in 2024 a demonstrator of the large-area display (LAD) cockpit it is developing for the Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft.
Speaking to Janes and other defence media at the company’s Warton facility on 24 May, Anthony Gregory, market development director for Europe, said that in early 2024 the LAD should have attained a maturity that will allow for a flying demonstrator to be built, ahead of design finalisation in late 2024/early 2025, and taking the capability to market in the 2030 timeframe.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air-platforms/latest/bae-targets-2024-to-fly-eurofighter-large-area-display-cockpit-demonstrator
“The UK industry and Ministry of Defence (MoD) partnership responsible for delivering the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) – of which the Tempest future fighter is a part – is preparing for a critical phase of the programme, with a senior official describing the task as “a 10-year challenge”.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air-platforms/latest/team-tempest-prepares-for-10-year-challenge-to-deliver-capability-in-2035
I’m not sure why if the Mk2 radar will be tested next year, IOC will only be in 2030? What will need to be done to create a production model? Aiming for Tempest in 2035 on the other hand is really good news. Nothing’s slipped yet.
The Typhoon fleet started the P3Ec upgrade package last year, deliveries should finish in 2024. The upgrade includes preparation work for radar 2, i.e. cooling, energy generation, sensor fusion to the new cockpit.
I’d imagine that testing and development for the new radar would run till 2026 at the earliest. Then manufacturing and installation would take till 2030.
Delaying something never saves money; even just due to inflation it’s inevitable that the price of that item will increase. If it’s one in a class of ships, however, the problem is even worse since stretching out the build time means you have to pay all the workers for 12 years instead of 6 years (and yes, I know that maintaining jobs is one of the reasons of this unfortunate and inefficient policy). On the topic of all those weapons, yes they will certainly be required prior to 2030 and both MI6 and the MOD know that. However, we’re back to the age of hoping the US will sort it out, without thinking about the political effects of having no military to speak of. Once more, I’m in California and, just so the U.K. doesn’t feel alone, the US government is just as complacent; when China’s rise (as the MOD likes the word “lethal” Congress always seems to term this rise “meteoric”) is obvious, talked about in the House and Senate daily, and particularly their navy beginning to challenge Western naval supremacy, we have plans to cut our navy down to 280 ships by 2030 from about 300 when the PLAN will increase from 500 to 720 in the same period of time.
I wish they would stop putting back purchasing. That just means money meant for something else next year gets sidelined. So freaking stupid.
All very interesting, but what on earth has this got to do with Chinese tank rounds?
Now that, perhaps, is the only question here I can answer with certainty. Absolutely nothing.
It would be interesting to see how the Chinese Type 96 tank (which has a 125mm round carousel loader) compares with Soviet T72/80/90 in Russian service. Would they perform as poorly? Might Russia be forced to buy some as its losses in Ukraine mount?
In assume they still have thousands of T72’s in long term store to rebuild to T90 spec?
I would guess the main issue facing Russian forces is to take and hold eastern Ukraine before their supply of spares runs out across the board.
The Russian Airforce in particular must be sweating, most of its precision guided munitions spent and having to lob dumb bombs, with the subsequent massive drop in effective weapons employment.
Also considering the short overhaul life of Russian Aircraft, compounded by operational use, they must be facing a perfect storm of decreased availability and effectiveness.
Pressure is really on to declare a ‘Victory’ for little big man Putin before the Ukrainians counter attack and roll them up.
Still waiting for your condemnation of Russia JohninMk??
I agree with most of what you say but pictures of ancient T62s being taken out of storage ( https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2022/05/is-there-any-value-in-war-reserves.html ) might indicate that Russia is nearing the end of its ability to generate T72s for combat.
I am really envious of your access to classified Russian information without which you would not have been able to make those claims. I trust you are sharing it with our Int Corps.
Oh dear you really don’t like any negative comments about your Russkie mates do you! You get so hand bag about it!
I don’t mind negative comments like those you make when they are attacking my assumptions and conclusions, less so when i am stating facts. Where they are justified, that’s life, I get things wrong.
But this is a site that George puts a lot of effort into getting factual information out on, with many readers, who may not know much about the subject matter, perhaps reading the comments to fill out the detail. Most of the time this works really well as there are many real experts here happy to share their knowledge.
The problem arises when someone of standing here, with total confidence makes strong statements that read as proven facts, as in this case, running out of spares or precision munitions, etc. that others might well believe.
But, these are not facts, in reality they are just claims or speculation. Claims that may be genuinely believed but they are still just claims as they cannot be proved since there is no evidence and probably never will be as this kind of military information, regardless of country, is going to be highly classified.
In my opinion those comments should have been qualified. That is why I got “so hand bag about it!”
I don’t speak to people who condone looting Rape and Murder, please don’t respond to my posts…..
George ban this Kremlin hacker will you……
I assume that you are aware of the Russian SVP-24 Gefest bomb aiming computer system used on the Su-24 and 25 since it was introduced in 2015 and extensively tested in Syria. It is the latter that, for obvious reasons, is being used as the main CAS bomb/rocket truck in eastern Ukraine.
From public sources, the Su-25SM3 upgrade included an improved GLONASS input giving the ability to program the end point with an accuracy of 10 m in the SVP-24-25 sighting and navigation system (SVP-24 Gefest variant), which makes it possible to increase the accuracy of unguided aircraft weapons to a level similar to that of guided weapons. This dramatically reduces the cost per bomb as all the expensive smarts are removed.
Clearly this will not be safe in some scenarios but where there is not much AD and/or an effective countermeasures system is in place it can be. Look up Vitebsk which is also on the Su-25SM3. I am not sure but I don’t think an Su-25 has been shot down since the 10th March, one was heavily damaged after that but made it back to base. Nor am I sure when they started using the -SM3 version there.
The Su-25SM3 is also using SVP-24 when targeting its unguided rockets, usually 80mm or 130mm. From videos it seems they are releasing them at a stand off distance with a nose up lob, rather than close in direct fire, the SVP-24 emitting a ‘beep’ at the launch point.
So why are they using mobile phones for GPS, as aircraft shot down have shown!
I don’t know, especially as GPS is heavily jammed so they wouldn’t be much use.
We know, Russkies have shit kit, while being very good at pretending they have good kit, no matter what their tame puppets on the internet claim! But now as we are talking, how about NO LONGER ignoring the question, do you condemn Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine and do you support the invasion, of so have the balls to say so and we will all read, intently, your reasoning! Alas however I doubt you will answer, you may respond but with some lame paraphrase but no answer eh Johnskie boy!
JIMK,
You have stated many a time you have no military knowledge (other than a stint with the cadets 60 years ago) and yet you feel you have the knowledge to lecture to those that do, that you have a far superior understanding of weapons technology, and tactics than those who do. Don’t get me wrong, people who have served do not automatically know better than those who haven’t, far from it. But time and time again you post something where you profess the superiority of Russian weapons, only to be knocked down.
So regards the Su 34, it is currently the only Russian Military aircraft which comes with a Targeting pod as standard, the vast majority of Western Military aircraft have been fitted with them for over 20 years, and regards the Su24 using the SVP-24 when targeting its unguided rockets, what part of unguided rockets can’t you understand , the reason why Western militaries can be so effective is due to the use of targeting pods and precision guided weapons
There lies the reason you open yourself up for ridicule. In a Nutshell Moscow has subscribed to the notion of never mind the quality feel the width and as we have seen across the Ukraine, they are paying the price for that mindset
Please re-read my post. I did not mention the Su-34 neither did I profess the superiority of SVP-24, nor mention the Su-24/rockets combination, just that it was a way of using dumb/unguided bombs/rockets more accurately. I think that the A-10 may have similar.
I welcome your comments on my posts as many times you are able to correct me or increase the debth of knowledge.
Clearly those who have served have knowledge that is unique to what they did and probably areas around it. As you say I didn’t and never claimed to have. But I have a pretty good general knowledge of some military matters, particularly Russian since 2013 and where I think it might help increase knowledge here, like with the SVP-24, I think it is a valid reason to post it.
Did I say anything incorrect in that post?
Wait a minute I thought you said you served with the British army and the bundeswehr in past posts. You were explaining how the Gepard training was 12 months minimum when you were there and there is hardly anyone left in the forces who could train on it.
As for the bomb Aimer I have a thought that if it’s as accurate as a gps bomb why aren’t all forces using it? It’s certainly not that they can’t make one as good or better
He forgets we can all go and read his previous chuff!
I assume your first comment was tongue in cheek as I never said that, I quoted a German.
All I said on accuracy was 10 meters, which is a lot less than a GPS guided bomb but I assume much better than a non computed release point dumb bomb.
Have a go and poke fun at me but at least get what you say correct please.
JIMK,
I feel I wasn’t clear enough regards the gist of my post, and for that I apologise. The point I was trying to highlight was this board is stacked up to the rafters with SMEs in the fields of Land, Air and Sea warfare. It really is eye opening (for me at least) the information they bring to the table and without been disparaging to you, you have a tendency to promulgate pro Russian sound bytes without realising that you are simply regurgitating misinformation. For example the post I responded to where you tried to pass off the SVP-24 Gefest as an accurate system for hitting the nail on the head during a bunfight. It uses dumb bombs which by their very definition are inaccurate (which explains why Moscow still uses 500 and 1000Kg Bombs, in which to make up with brute force any bombing aiming errors) In contrast the West uses precision guided weapons which can not only hit the nail on the head, but do so with a much smaller warhead (For example the Israelis have been known to replace HE with concrete, the US with an unfolding set of blades) not only that but if the target moves the weapon can follow it. The Gefest cant do that, , you highlighted the SU 24, yet Russia hasn’t lost any, whilst it has lost 10 of its replacement the SU34. Which says to me, that Moscow hasn’t been using the much older Su24 due to its vulnerability to SAMs, which brings us to the Su25, have you seen the videos of them lobbing ordinance across the Ukraine, they come in low, pop up drop their stuff do a quick 180 and bug out. Which tells me they are using targeting information preloaded on the ground, how is that accurate if the target has moved.
You then stated this:
“I am not sure but I don’t think an Su-25 has been shot down since the 10th March,”
Which is strange as it was reported on the 17th of May that 63 year old retired Russian airforce Col Nikolai Markov was shot down whilst operating a SU25 over Luhansk
My point, many of your posts can (and have) be easily debunked and that leaves you open to attack amid allegations you are nothing more than a pro-Russian troll, especially from those I mentioned above, who are SMEs in their fields.
Yes, I agree totally that there are members here who have and are willing to share an impressive amount of expertise, it is one of the reasons I am here. Yes, I tend to write about Russian stuff, mainly due to my interest in Ukraine since 2013, so have some information to give, some of which may be wrong given their lack of openness but I try to get it as accurate as I can.
Conversely, please play fair with your criticisms Farouk. It is almost as if you have not read my previous comments made an hour after your original one before writing this one.
Where did I even imply, let alone “tried to pass off the SVP-24 Gefest as an accurate system for hitting the nail on the head”.? I said “accuracy of 10m” which is hardly that and which qualified my comment “increase the accuracy of unguided aircraft weapons to a level similar to that of guided weapons” which it is pretty much compared to a dumb release, dumb bomb..
As to the Su-24, apart from linking it to testing in Syria I made no mention of its use in Ukraine, mainly as I don’t think it has been used there, the Russians using its successor Su-34 instead, which I also did not mention.
I made no claim as to the accuracy of the SVP-24 against moving targets for exactly the reason you gave, probable preloaded co-ordinates. I don’t know if a target can be ID’d in flight.
As to the Su-25 shoot downs, I did at least qualify my comment with “I am not sure but I don’t think” and I was wrong for which I apologise. A bit more on these two incidents, they involved ‘Wagner Air Force’ mercenary pilots who may not have been flying Su-24SM3 but an earlier less protected version, we don’t know. Also one of the pilots, Major General Kanamat Botashev was not strictly speaking retired, he had been fired from the RuAF around 10 years ago for taking a Su-27 without permission and crashing it. He was a Flanker not Su-25 pilot when in service. I don’t know Colonel Nikolai Markov’s record.
Apart from forgetting the two Su-25s nothing in my original comment has been debunked. It was a post that I hoped would add to the knowledge base here and I stand by what I wrote.
Correction, you write Pro-Russian stuff pal. Give yourself a break, you are now becoming a poster who we now only look for the detrimental comments and snide remarks dug into your supposed “impartial” comments. It’s sad, it’s propaganda, it’s disinformation and it’s also interesting why, you claim to be an Englshman yet refuse to condemn the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine, headed by Puketin.
And Wagner, a group of Russian Nazis, headed by a Nazi, sponsered, paid for and assisted by the Putin Nazi Government, who organisation name is after a German. I think we all know who and where the Nazis are pal.
“I welcome your comments on my posts as many times you are able to correct me or increase the debth of knowledge.”
Don’t tell him your name Pike🤣🤣🤣
I’ll bet he doesn’t like soggy chips either….
😂😂😂👍
The Russian Morse tapper won’t get that reference Airborne….👌
I did but chippies are a dying breed around here in Newport Pagnell. Just like the banks, turning into Indian takeaways and restaurants.
Newport Pagnell? Thought you were Milton Keynes?
Look at a map.
I’m a MAPRIC, we have an answer, knew it would drag out a response, and now we are chatting, about that condemnation of Putins illegal invasion? You make sad and pathetic seem like something you can aim for!
Read his sad reply to you, his continued detrimental and snide little comments about Ukraine continues to show he lack of impartiality and his sad Putin loving attitude! If he is English as he claims then it’s even more disgusting and pathetic!
I certainly don’t. Both Lidl and Aldi make very good skin on oven chips. If you haven’t tried them you should give them a go.
Two replying to the same post, must have been a change of shift, top tip, leave notes when swapping over to the next Morse tapper…
Don’t get a Dads Army reference … Oh dear, back to spy school with you, poor effort!
I thought Lidl and Aldi had both pulled out of Russia beacuse of all that looting, raping and murdering we keep hearing about in our decadent western media?
Not two, just me replying individually to your two posts that came out together on the thread.
I watched Dad’s Army when it was originally broadcast and the nuances of the comments made then have disappeared into the mists of time, so no I didn’t get it and certainly wasn’t going to search for it. Just made what I hope was a positive foodie suggestion that was mildly relevant.
I thought those shops had as well but but there are still branches of both near me, just off to one in a mo. If you really do think I am in Russia why don’t you ask the Mods which country my IP/email address is in? They know and I have talked to then about it and then post the answer.
Re the rapes, I mentioned it before but incase you didn’t spot it the Ukrainian MPs in their Rada, after an investigation, on Monday last fired their own Ombudsman, a woman in this case, of Human Rights as she had, among other things, been fabricating the stories about Russians raping Ukrainians. They were unable to find sufficient evidence and accused her of creating stories for the western press, that got spread widely. There may of course be individual cases but nothing on the scale claimed. The is a big article in Moon of Alabama that goes into chapter and verse on it.
On a different topic the DNR have announced this morning that prosecutions of those believed to be guilty of crimes, including specifically mentioned mercenaries and NATO instructors, will start this month in Mariupol. There are estimates of 8000 being held in Donetsk and 4000 in Russia, mostly normal PoW of course, a number that seems to be growing every day.
I hope you and everyone here is enjoying the long Jubilee weekend.
There you go you just can’t stop yourself! Ukrainian are lying but our brave and honest Russian legal system is prosecuting those nasty Ukrainians! You are a sad, little poodle mouthpiece of Putin who isn’t allowed to criticise the illegal invasion or even have the balls to admit you support it! Every time you post you lose that weak attempt at impartiality as you cannot resist the opportunity to slag down the Ukrainians, the Ukrainians who have been illegally invaded and defending their homeland from Nazi aggression once more!
And, if as you claim you are English then your lack of condemnation is even more disgusting pal! I suppose you get a bit excited at the footage of the war, tissues are the ready, pictures of Putin and Hitler and away you go!
Here, here, perhaps Dads Army looses it’s shine in Russian Airborne….
He will be asking about launch codes next 🤣🤣
Russian stillborn mate more like 😂👍🇺🇦
You claim to be over 60, nearer 70 by my maths by previous posts and you didn’t get the Dads Army ref! FFS caught out yet again stop blustering a pathetic excuse! I will be cut and pasting that one to remind you in the future when you waffle shite again!
Whistle while you work, Hitler is a twirp, he’s half barmy, so’s his army, whistle while you work.
Absolutely classic, and when I last watched it, it had a “woke warning” regarding insensitive comments, which makes us realise how funny it was!!!! Filmed in Thetford as well mate, I’m sure I recognise some parts of the training area……mmmmm! The actors all all had a very interesting real life history as well, probably one of the best series to ever grace the box.
Over 70.
So, you didn’t know the dads army ref? And do let us know the NATO instructors that are currently illegally being detained by Russia? Nationality would be a start? You cannot can you, silly little one liners or detrimental comments but no real subject matter answers to questions raised!
Being non military, it probably didn’t resonate in the same way as with military types.
What, Dads Army? one of the most watched shows in the era? At a time when a vast proportion of the population had seen active service/or had experience/memories of the war or had at least national service under their belt? Really, you are clutching at straws now pal. Another error in your catalogue of “caught out errors”. Anyway, in the same post I asked about your claim to verify the NATO instructors who would be illegaly held by Russia. Any more information on that one, or just another propoganda “throw it out there” claim. Come on, its time to back up your claims.
And please give us the NATO instructors nationality and units please which have been captured, as if a NATO soldier has been captured your RT rape channel would have put them on asp! Bell-end!
Bloody hell, you really are taking the piss now John, so, let’s try again, let’s all hear an unreserved condemnation of that murderous little big man coward Putin….
You just can’t do it can you, or the MSB will take your Lada away and cut your vodka allowance…..
I will happily have a serious conversation with you when you do, but oddly you simply won’t, you just try and put the blame on
I wonder why that might be comrade???
Don’t bother trying to use any of your nerve agents on me, I’ve been having to the under the counter “special chilli sauce” at my local kabab house for years…
Worse than anything your criminal scientists can come up with….
“Extensively tested in Syria” on civvies and civilian areas! You know sweet FA about reality but love your Russkie propaganda posts!
That’s an interesting picture (Granted its from a computer game) of the Type 99, which clearly shows how much the Chinese derived from the T72 including the auto loader. Yet I cannot but help feel that despite the addition of extra armour to the front and sides, the family tree of China’s MBT (96/99/99A,VT4) appear to be just as vulnerable to top attack weapons as the T64/72/80/90 due to that auto loader. It will be interesting to see how quickly the Chinese take note in which to address that vulnerability and will their GL-5 Active protection system be part of the solution.
The Chinese are certainly a lot better than the utter laughing stock the Russians have been proven to be, but they still rely on similar tactics, i.e,brute force and ignorance with a lot of second tier equipment..
At least the Chinese have a core silver bullet force of well trained ( and increasingly well equipped professional forces), the Russians have nothing more nukes and and a load of old crap, poorly trained and motivated personell. Had the Ukrainians got round to upgrading their Flanker force with Israeli systems and missiles a few years ago, they would have absolutely wiped the floor with the vodka soaked Russian Airforce on day one…
What a joke! The Chicoms literally steal every single piece of Western tech they can get their hands on and someone posts a pic of a tank shell rod and it’s immediately taken down citing it’s classified in China? By chance is the forum moderator Hunter Biden? LMAO!
No different to the West. Didn’t the similar classified Challenger and Leopard manual data that appeared ‘to increase the game’s accuracy’ get taken down as well?
Just a formality but you can bet someone in China is gonna get the firing squad for it. Probably not any new information that the NSA or CIA hasn’t already handed to their Pentagon.
I actually play War Thunder but only use the flying!
Looks like I need to log in and catch up on the “gossip”😂