In a recent article, we reported on claims that a US Virginia-class submarine had departed Faslane to cover the patrol handover of a British Vanguard-class ballistic missile submarine.
This report was based on information from a source local to the base that we had previously considered highly reliable.
However, after further investigation and consultation with numerous respected individuals within the defence community, we have significant reason to doubt the accuracy of these claims.
The initial report was informed by a source with a strong track record of providing accurate information on defence matters, particularly those related to submarine movements.
Given this history, we believed the information to be credible. However, after publishing, we were approached by several other well-placed defence personnel who expressed scepticism about the claims. Their collective expertise and inside knowledge of naval operations led us to reconsider the validity of our original report.
Conflicting Perspectives
The nature of submarine operations, especially those linked to the UK’s Continuous At Sea Deterrent (CASD), is highly classified, and few outside the relevant circles are privy to the details.
While our source suggested a connection between the movements of the US and UK submarines, the majority of naval personnel we spoke with believe that such an event is unlikely. Their doubts cast a shadow over the initial report, prompting us to issue this correction. It’s very likely we got this wrong.
Acknowledging the Situation
We take these matters very seriously and understand the potential implications of reporting on sensitive defence operations. While no one is ableto definitively confirm or deny the original claims, the feedback from multiple respected voices within the Royal Navy has led us to conclude that the reported scenario is improbable.
Therefore, we believe it is important to clarify this to our readers.
We remain committed to providing accurate and responsible reporting, particularly on issues of national security. This incident has underscored the importance of considering a broad spectrum of insights, especially from those deeply embedded in the relevant operations. We will continue to rely on our trusted sources but will also seek out additional perspectives to ensure a balanced and accurate representation of events.
We appreciate the understanding of our readers as we work to correct this narrative and ensure that future reports reflect the most accurate and thoroughly vetted information available. Thank you for your continued trust and support.
First of all, admitting information might be wrong is what makes good journalism. Insofar, kudos to this article.
What is the issue of having a US sub escorting a British sub, though? Can someone explain with few words why this would be an issue?
My thoughts exactly.
I know from a friend that for a very long time the RN were very guarded about letting anyone near enough to a Vanguard to get a good acoustic signature, friend or foe.
If it happened it was simply an impromptu naval exercise , which is a frequent occurrence between NATO forces. It does not reflect on the RN ability to securely transit its Ballistic boats.
I think it really comes down to how ‘independent’ an independent nuclear deterrent is if we can’t provide the required level of protection ourselves. And that that situation was potentially brought about because of inadequate means to maintain our own SSN fleet.
So it’s not really an issue of it being a US sub, more that it had come about due to the unavailability of a British one – and that shouldn’t happen.
There is probably some legitimate ambiguity re the extent of interactions between SSNs and SSBNs during ops. There may well be a ‘delousing’/sanitizing phase during CASD deployments. Doesn’t strictly matter which allied navy performs the mission, the important aspect is that the task, if indeed required, is covered. Willing to wager that virtually everyone involved w/ this site recognizes that current RN SSN maintenance/refit capability is sub-optimal. However, the RN has developed, funded and is executing a remediation plan which will not only resolve the issue but provide growth potential, w/in a finite time period. Quite impressive for a once… Read more »
Thank you for this reply which makes sense.
“In more news further unconfirmed reports that the UK is shit at everything and should not even bother having a military just pay king Donald protection money” It’s nice you printed a retraction but damage done already I’m afraid. All stories like this do is aid our enemies and break our own moral. Quite frankly the willingness to print the initial story says a lot, the willingness of so many commentators to jump on the band wagon says even more. Honestly it’s amazing how dim a view people who claim to be pro defence and patriotic have on the British… Read more »
I really doubt there are any actual professional foreign agents here, outcasts with special interests definitely, but this is a forum of relatively few people with a relatively high degree of knowledge and I’m unaware of any big social media influencers on here to spread the message.
Misinformants work on Tiktok and Twitter were they can reach a large number of uninformed people and get the professional rumour and conspiracy merchants working.
Targeting UKDJ doesn’t seem like good value.
Possibly.
This forum and others is actually just as likely to be watched by our own people looking for OPSEC breaches.
Very true, if certain Discord and War Thunder forum posts have taught us anything it’s that some people will do very stupid things for very stupid reasons.
Well said Jim.
BZ
I hope you’re sharing your thoughts with Saturday’s Daily Mail.
I suspect it’s simply operational security, the more that know or are connected to an activity the more chance of information leaking, The deterrent and where it is at is probably the single most important national security secret.
This.
It should be the case that only UK RN knows where the SSBNs are. Not NATO or the US etc. This is a prerequisite for an independent deterrent. I suspect the SSBN is given a rough area to patrol and a duration and then the sub hides from everyone. A frigate will sterilise the port before the SSBN leaves and returns. A SSN may also cover the SSBN. A non-UK SSN would not be used.
Personally I think it is unwise to be having this dicussion.
Good journalistic integrity
Good look from this news site. Won’t go overboard but it certainly makes UKDJ feel more trusted to me.
The original story noted that ALL of the RN’s Astute SSN are currently alongside and are therefore unavailable for the “delousing” as one of our SSBN commences it’s deployment (or possibly, it’s return). So, given the danger of the Russians repeating their audacious recent transits past Faslane, Sellafield and though the Irish Sea by their Kilo-class submarines, this raises the question whether our Trident boats are being successfully tracked as they deploy I’m not surprised that the (unknown) defence personnel have got upset at the suggestion that thanks to this obvious mismanagement, our CASD may be vulnerable. GA notes that… Read more »
It isn’t vulnerable. Through means of satellite and other intelligence gathering capabilities we know Russian sub movements before they even leave port. We have underwater sensors that track boats, we have a T23 with towed array, and we have P8 capability with the RAF and allies. It’s fair to say, a Russian boat isn’t getting anywhere near a RN Vanguard boat, with or without a RN SSN to support. We have more than one capability for such operations and decades of experience.
All I will say is thank goodness HMG repaired the damage of cancelling the RAF maritime patrol aircraft..and got Poseidon sorted out…that was a capability that should never have been gapped.
Yes, definitely mate. Excellent capability.
Was it HMG that cancelled the project, or another BAe overbudget, overtime and under delivery. BAe have got too used to hosing down the taxpayer, leaving the MoD ‘up a creek’ whilst riding off into the sunset with another bag full of money. (close you eyes and think of the Schultz cartoon with Lucy, Charlie Brown and Lucy’s pristine football).
If the Russians can send one of their Kilo class subs past Faslane and down the Irish Sea, they are clearly gathering intel – such as acoustic signatures. I could list out numerous intel failures over the years, starting with the HAMAS attack on southern Israel last year (Oct 8th) which has resulted in the guy responsible being retired. Or the recent Ukraine attack towards Kursk which surprised everyone. Whichever way you try and spin this, the CASD needs an SSN riding shotgun as was always the case in the Cold War. Trying to defend this level of incompetence with… Read more »
Morning mate. I’m not certain of course, but I don’t think SSN have ever routinely escorted SSBN actually on patrol. Only the vulnerable handover on the Clyde approaches, as seen with this situation.
Seems to me a waste of an SSN if it were so. I’d rather them off into the Barents and Norwegian Sea doing what they do best.
Quite.
No it isn’t David. We know exactly when a Russian sub is in the area, and well before it arrives near the UK. They are not going to find our anything new that they haven’t already got from decades of operations. Its a big game of cat and mouse. A decades old game.
That sounds great but it doesn’t 100 percent locate the Russian sub🤣
I leave the subject matter experts in our Armed Forces to deal with that.
It’s cheaper than aster 15 , less manoeuvreble .
Its based on ASRAAM. So it is very maneuverable. Very fast. And has a secondary anti ship capability. Especially against small craft.
What would anyone be using an SSN to track a SSK in the Irish Sea? That’s littoral waters. That’s what’s Merlin’s and T23 would be used for. Even T23 would toil in such shallow confined waters. Astute SSN’s don’t escort vanguards like a destroyer would a carrier. If they are even involved in a transit which is so highly classified no one commenting on here knows if it’s happening or not they will be far out in the ocean providing a wider anti submarine barrier in conjunction with MPA, Frigates and sea bed sensors as well as wider NATO tracking… Read more »
Regarding the tracking of our boats, there is an intelligence infrastructure in place that analyses all activity around the SSBNs from all sources both during the patrol and after each patrol is complete. The boat is never alone and lost in the ocean as some would romantically imagine. Northwood, the MoD and I suspect our allies in the US and France (after the collision a few years ago) know approximately where the boats are at all times. They’ll also monitor the whereabouts of all known Russian and Chinese boats. When they leave the wall, they’ll be tracked..
Northwood and MoD I believe involves just a handful of people who know the whereabouts.
Commander Ops, and I guess the DS.
I believe that since the British and French boats collided, we now have ‘patrol boxes’ for want of a better phrase so it never happens again. It makes sense for a number of reasons. You may not be able to put a pin in a map but I suspect there are a lot of people who can make an educated guess regarding the size and location of the patrol box.
Yes I read of that. Amazing how quiet these things are that they collide at very slow speed.
What seems to be known for certain is that no UK SSN was available to protect the handover. That’s the real issue. How great a risk that poses, I have no idea.
Either way, It’s a shambles and a dire state of affairs (someone will probably tell me the opposite in a bit as normal !) I’d not be too unhappy that the V boat was actually accompanied by a USN Sub personally given the current state of our SSN’s and i’d be happy to go as far as be happy if the French were doing this. Someone really does need to get a grip with this dire situation.
See my reply above.
Well I admire your optimism as always. Putting a good spin on an otherwise dire situation can’t be easy. Maybe we should have not spent all those billions on Astutes after all ? What do you say ?
I’d say the situation is manageable until the maintenance/dry dock issue is rectified for the Astue boats and doesn’t need a massive overreaction from people who don’t understand the broader capabilities available. Like I said. We have more than one capability at our disposal. It’s nothing we and our allies haven’t coped with before over many decades of nuclear submarine operations.
Don’t condescend me mate.
I forgot to add Merlin Mk2s, deployed out of Prestwick if required. Maybe you could learn something Mr Baker.
I’m afraid the drydock issue in Devonport is a bit of a shitshow issue…there should have been an astute capable dock in Devonport years ago…saving a penny has tied up a lot of capability. But the good news is it will be sorted out in a couple of years.
Do we lol , how many frigates are available? 🤣🤣
Optimism is closely related to complacency…The fact is the RNs prime weapons platform is not available. A crisis probably won’t have the good manners to announce itself months in advance to allow that to be rectified.
Some here seem to think differently. I just think they haven’t a clue.
Both the US and French are doing this every day. All our submarines are out in the North Atlantic tracking Russian submarines on the increasingly rare occasions they try to penetrate the North Atlantic. Every time a Russian submarine comes anywhere near European or North American waters it’s a news story from the coast of Norway to the Caribbean. SSN’s re a part of this and it’s far from ideal having our maintenance issues however they are far from the major asset in providing territorial defence and much more useful in deep ocean or operating near Russian bastions in the… Read more »
Sorry but what ? You say that all our Subs are out in the North Atlantic tracking Russian submarines ?
Just what Planet are you on at the moment ?
Anyone ?
There are times I come here and read this stuff and think WTAF ?
Precisely. The delusion is big . Unless it is false it is known that Astutes have been stuck in port.
An article from a year ago on the Thin Pinstriped Line site claimed that the fact that none of our Astutes was at sea didn’t really matter. I was doubtful then, even more so now.
Paying for the Astutes ” world leading capabilities” is pointless if you don’t ensure they can actually be kept going. I may be wrong, but it seems that until new dry docks are available, no maintenance can take place. So this problem won’t be solved any time soon. Ambush has been inactive for over 2 years already!
Apparently it’s either not an issue or they are actually all out in the North Atlantic and the reports are all wrong….. 😁 love this site !
How do you think and SSN and an SSBN provide a “handover” does anyone actually have any information that it’s normal for Astute and Vanguards to be in some formation with each other coming into the Clyde.
Remember the RN goes to extraordinary lengths to protect the acoustic signature of its SSN’s as well.
So what use would an SSN be in a delousing operation other than to be very far out conducting its own separate ASW patrols.
Isn’t part of the delousing checking the acoustic signature?
Sort of “if our SSNs can’t track them, what hope do the Russians have?”
Have you even read the article ?
I just can’t understand your comments on this to be honest Jim.
Because you don’t understand how defence matters work behind headline numbers. Is it ideal the Astutes have a maintenance backlog. No it isn’t. But we do have many other capabilities to manage the situation. Other nations have the same, and far worse operational restrictions.
The issue for me is more around the wider geostrategic picture…agree, that wider ASW capabilities can manage the issue protecting the SSBN. But the RNs SSNs are a massively important part of the west’s conventional deterrent and one of the three western SSN equipped navies being perceived to be having issues with deploying its fleet is not what we want in the present world…we want to be showing Russia, Iran and china that RN SSNs are deploying and may just be in their faces if needed. luckily it looks like the issue will be resolved by 2027 as well as… Read more »
So another 3 years time then.
There you go again. 🙄
An SSN can be making fake boise near the SSBN to disguise the big brother noise. It also can act to impede other submarine approach.
I don’t know the exact details which is why I clearly stated I didn’t know how big a risk the absence of SSN is.
Worth reading the Navy Lookout article of 8/12/2023 on the dry dock problems before the failure of the Faslane lift. To have such a small fleet and yet still be unable to ensure you can maintain it properly is a scandal.
The royal navy is going above and beyond to protect the acoustic signature of its Astutes at the moment.. not a chance anyone can detect them at the moment
Thank you George and UKDJ. The story was appropriate inasmuch this is a Journal of record. With the correction – I might think additional information – the story is closed. However, the present state of our navy and the security of our national deterrent is of considerable concern to both informed and less well informed observers. This remains the case today and in the future..
Good reply, I’m neither Well informed or I’ll informed but I do see the dire state we seem to be in ATM. “State of the art, Cutting edge, World beating” is all very well but the reality is they are all US. I just got told that they are actually not really being missed so tbh, it’s no big deal. 🙄
Astute is world-class. And is,regarded as one of the most deadly SSN’s money can buy. Just because something is American, doesn’t make it better. Look at the state of their Frigate programme. Or Destroyer cockups. They also have a major nuclear submarine maintenance backlog. With availability very low across the fleet. Major issues getting EMALS to work on the USS Ford aircraft carrier. They also have a major manning issue with its auxiliary tankers and support vessels. Also major issues with recruitment and retention. So what you see on the pages or UKDJ are not uniquely British problems.
Morning mate.
All true. I think the issue is, as always, numbers. The Americans can have all those issues and still have the numbers regardless!
Our governments have all cut since 91 to the point where now when what little we have left gets these issues its pretty drastic.
Hi mate. Yep, it doesn’t leave much in the tank. At least projects are in place to rectify the sub maintenance backlog. Should not have to to thst though. The best kit is useless without the correct engineering support.
A very good statement from UKDJ. That approach is what make the site such a trusted source.
I think I read that we only have one Astute and the last Trafalgar currently available for ops. Can’t really see any big issue if a USN boat stepped in to help out. I can imagine though that seniors in the MOD would not like such a story at all! Cue the tabloids having a field day, questioning how ‘independent’ our nuclear deterrent is and digging into what a horlicks the MOD and RN have made in having no suitable dry docks spare. UKDJ was providing a valuable service in its original report, it is a matter of concern to… Read more »
To be honest, I do think an Astute and Triumph could probably be ready enough to venture forth but at this moment, they are all US. I’m sure GB would confirm this but My own status on here seems to be dismissed as I’m not a serving or Veteran so therefore not taken serious.
🤔👍🙃🕳️Btth
If we really only have 2 boats available for sea duties, I”d expect they’d be busy elsewhere fulfilling some of the many other SSN commitments.
I believe that all are welcome on this good site, serving, veteran, defence industry, defence afficianados, interested observers, lay public, even a few Russki trolls… Anyone interested in defence and discussion thereon is a valid member of the crew, you included.
It’s seriousLY by the way!
Doesn’t change the fact that if one of our bombers did need support we would have to beg someone else to provide it. A shameful situation to be in!
I now believe 100% that the initial story was true and this retraction is an attempt to mitigate the harm
In other words you’ve been jumped on from a very great height from above
No.
I think this site needs a reminder above the comment box that hostile states are watching and ‘careless talk costs lives’. And possibly a vigorous moderating approach. I would like to think that those who know, know not to talk, but the discussion on CASD operations and capabilities (even if it’s just speculation by overconfident amateurs) seems to invite the disclosure of sensitive information (see also: War Thunder forums, recent arrest(s)).
I hope you did not pay your source….l
It’s hard to admit an error, respect to you for doing so. For me, I feel, having made a mistake, acknowledged and corrected it, our relationship is stronger because of it.