The MoD say that HMS Diamond has recently been tested by Tornado, Typhoon and F-16 jets, plus E-3 surveillance aircraft and Voyager tankers in the skies above and around Cyprus.

Now, say the Royal Navy, she is ‘trying her hand’ at anti-submarine warfare aided by one of the Royal Navy’s hunter-killer submarines, HMS Talent.

The destroyer used her Wildcat helicopter – armed with Sting Ray torpedoes – to hunt the Trafalgar-class boat, which in turn sought to get Diamond in her periscope cross-hairs without being noticed, a challenge made harder by the near-glass like state of the Mediterranean according to a release.

“All this proves our ability to deploy, operate and sustain ourselves for however long is required,” said Commander Ben Keith, HMS Diamond’s Commanding Officer.

“Type 45 destroyers are one of the cornerstones of our modern navy and this training enables us to demonstrate our ability to exercise and operate with armed forces both internationally and across defence. Safeguarding the seas ultimately helps keep Britain safe, as our nation depends so much on the oceans for our economy. My ship’s company stand ready always to provide security where it’s needed on behalf of the UK.”

HMS Diamond sailed for the region at the end of September for an autumn deployment conducting security operations in the eastern Mediterranean. Where as the submarine, understood to be HMS Talent, was recently seen loading Tomahawk cruise missiles in Gibraltar.

Launched in 1988, Talent has conducted operations all around the world. The principal role of the ‘hunter-killer’ is to attack ships and other submarines however she also has a land attack capability. The Tomahawk missile, also known as TLAM, allows Royal Navy submarines of the Astute and Trafalgar class to strike at targets on land accurately at a range of around 1,000 miles.

The missile is a highly accurate, GPS-enabled weapon that the US and allied militaries have used more than 2,000 times in combat, and flight-tested 500 times say the manufacturer.

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Patrick
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Patrick

Considering the T45s are supposed to have an acoustic signature of a washing machine with bricks in it. I’d say HMS Talent has no problem finding her.

Ben P
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Ben P

That was proven to be bullshit. Don’t believe everything you read.

Evan P
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Evan P

It’s not really a contest between any given good warship and a good hunter killer boat, not just the T45s. Subs are always going to win providing the crew doesn’t make a silly mistake.

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

Not against a T23 in Quiet State , on electric drive and the emitters off and with a Merlin up.

Patrick
Guest
Patrick

Do you have a link? Everything I read about them a few years ago said they were very loud. The crew of one of them were even sticking wooden spoons in the hatches to stop them rattling.

Callum
Guest
Callum

Last I heard was that they were performing “within design parameters” in regards to noise generation.

Bear in mind that, having been in service for several years now, the vast majority of teething issues like dodgy hatches will have been corrected

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

That’s interesting. Daring’s should be quiet as they are IEP. Indeed one of the design drivers was that the class should be quieter than T42.

When was the cement mixer story proven to be hogwash?

Spyinthesky
Guest
Spyinthesky

Slightly unfair, washing machines are a lot quieter than they used to be don’t you know.

MattG
Guest
MattG

The thing is when the MOD tested the noise levels of the T45 the results were that it exceeded the requirements on noise. The washing machine label is nonsense.

Freddo
Guest
Freddo

All anyone on HMS Talent needs to do is to go the Marine Traffic website (marinetraffic.com) and search for HMS Diamond. It currently shows her moored on the Rhine in Basel, Switzerland. Quite how she got there is another question.

Tommy R
Guest
Tommy R

you are quite right freddo

Chris
Guest
Chris

There are two types of vessels: submarines and targets. I pity HMS Diamond, it wouldn’t really have been a fair contest would it.

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

I was on a specific class of RN warship that was ignored by a sub during a CASEX.We had deceptive lighting rigged and acoustically they thought we had to be a Merchant Ship. The joys of having a Controlled Pitch Prop that was duff.

David Steeper
Guest

Chris if you were being hunted by a couple of Merlins i’m not sure who would be pitying who !

T.S
Guest

I would imagine it’s more about the use of the dipping sonar to find the sub than which ship accompanies it?

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Yes.

Ron5
Guest
Ron5

What dipping sonar?? Wildcat doesn’t have one.

Bloke down the pub
Guest
Bloke down the pub

Or specifically, UK Wildcat don’t have dipping sonar. The ones being supplied to the Phillipines will have.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

You are right I forgot that……

Too much reading about the navies of the Far East. The South Korean Wildcats are fitted with them.

There is just too much stuff to keep track of. 🙂

Dan
Guest
Dan

Was the purpose of this excercise to prove that we need better ASW capability? I think we already knew that.

Simon
Guest
Simon

I presume they’re just playing with MFS7000 and cuing Wildcat to a contact to utterly fail to locate using it’s non-existent dipper!

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Weren’t T45 due to get the UMS 4110 fitted to Horizon and FREMM?

Glass Half Full
Guest
Glass Half Full

I presume the Wildcat was there for two reasons – to simulate its role as the delivery vehicle for a Sting Ray torpedo and to use its Seaspray 7000E AESA radar to spot a periscope. In the case of the latter the glass sea state would make periscope detection that much easier. I don’t know if the T45 would have been trying to detect the sub with passive sonar, which would seem to be a challenge against Trafalgar class with a non-dedicated ASW platform. It seems more likely that it would be using active sonar, i.e. modeling a scenario where… Read more »

Bloke down the pub
Guest
Bloke down the pub

I see that the USN test fired a Sub-Harpoon missile for the first time in years during the recent Rim-pac exercise and are considering reopening production.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

I remember having a discussion with an RN PWO about Sub-Harpoon. He said it was flawed weapon because it revealed where the submarine was and problems with OTH targeting. This confused me somewhat as the range of SH is well within the range of our SSN’s sonars for a positive ID. They always work with the chances of an aircraft being in range. But given the possible number of pingers in a group, the radius of SH’s range from the group, the flying time for say helicopter to get there, and the speed of an SSN then I would say… Read more »

BB85
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BB85

Can the wildcat not drop sonobuoys? The Korean version has a dipping sonar, maybe the UK skimped again.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I’m curious.

There was an article months ago on UKDJ where we discussed much the same thing, and on that occasion it was also a T45 vs a sub.

What does the 45 have? Any basic sonar or any sort of asw capability?

Or is this training simply for the SSNs benefit or a basic hide and seek visual exercise?

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

They have mine avoidance sonar. All the ASW kit they would have had (basically I think the same as Horizon class so hull mounted no TAS) got lost a long the way due to funds. Yes T45 is a specialised air defence platform, but all our post war air defence platforms have had some ASW capability. Some say this doesn’t matter. But to me it means they have gone from being an escort to a single purpose ship that itself has to be escorted. Those who say it doesn’t matter would probably say I was being silly if I said… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Thanks Steve.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Horizon’s get Thales UMS 4110 CL sonar and 2× WASS B515/1 single torpedo tubes for MU90 Impact (24 torpedoes carried)

The Hobarts have Ultra Electronics Sonar Systems, hull mounted sonar and towed sonar and 2 x Mark 32 STWS using MU90 (Ultra Electronics is UK company)

Somebody always questions the fitting of STWS as they say these days they are a bit of anachronism. But it appears everybody else fits them. So they are either being conned or are stupid, or we are……… 🙂

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

The sonar on a T45 is a Medium Frequency active sonar. Its performance is going to be similar to other RN medium frequency sonars fitted to RN Frigates. It is going to be of a similar performance to 2016/2050 fitted to most past and present modern day RN Frigates (T22 and T23) Because it is an MF sonar it can be used for Mine Avoidance by applying some clever software and transmission frequency alterations. So with an MF sonar You ping and if the electronics, auto trackers, track extractors, target analysis software and algorithms determine if the returns are a… Read more »

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

MFS-7000 is built for torpedo warning and mine avoidance, it is a ‘parking sensor’. It doesn’t compare with the hull sonars in the Burke, Hobart, Horizon. It doesn’t have similar performance to 2050 at all. If a sensor like MFS-7000 is effective against even our last generation SSN’s we are in trouble. You can look at ASW work in two ways. Yes hunting will be active. But the ship when cruising isn’t going to being pinging away merrily as it traverses the oggin which is most of the time. So I would say most ASW is surveillance not prosecution.

Gavin Gordon
Guest
Gavin Gordon

T45 has 2091 bow sonar. However, I suspect the clue is in the statement that she’s been tested with regard to her primary function, which one hopes she passed with flying colours. So, ‘lets just see how she performs against the next likely threat level, lads’. The anouncement strikes me as bit bit smug, so maybe the RN means ‘not bad, chaps’. Further out on a limb, they’re being upgraded to take over the electronic detection role of the Type 22s, so perhaps there is more behind this than meets the eye.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Ahhh. Shaman. I wonder.

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

T45 sonar as far as I’m aware is only meant to find torpedoes and other objects close to the surface.

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

So the carrier escort needs an escort? What a waste of money.

Cam Hunter
Guest
Cam Hunter

Aren’t then45s getting that electronic spy equipment similar to like the 22s used to have?, I’ve always thought the 45s should pack a bigger punch with equipment, it has the room to carry more anti air missiles, or even a few land atack missiles but they never put them in even though it’s fitted for them! And with our limited number of hulls we should have all our 19 frigates and destroyers multitasking, the frigates have anti air missiles, so our destroyers should have atleast 2 torpedo tubes and a better anti submarines capability, what if the wildcats down! What… Read more »

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

One of the reasons why T22 was stretched was to accommodate Outboard which was a very clever system in its day.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Cam.

Yes. Check out the FIC at Collingwood.

Training facility there opened by 1SL already for Shaman operators.

Links nicely into 5 eyes WAN.

Glenn Ridsdale
Guest
Glenn Ridsdale

No towed sonar aboard ship and neither dipping sonar nor sonobuoys on Wildcat. There’s a reason Talent had to come within visual range…

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

does anyone know if our wildcats can be fitted with dipping sonar, relatively easily? as opposed to an almost complete rebuild.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

That’s a good question. You never no with aircraft do you?

Steve
Guest
Steve

I know it’s all about false economy and cost saving, but I can’t get past the madness and frankly dangerous thinking of not installing sub surface capability. Even with a huge navy, layered defence means exactly that lots of layers working together. With a small navy, the strength in depth is not there and so every asset has to help out and so that means t45 helping out as last layer for anti surface and frigates for anti air. Let’s hope we don’t have another naval war, as things like this scare me.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Yes. As I said above T45 is now something that has to be escorted. All our post war escorts had a ASW capability, even the single purpose T41 and T61 frigates had ASW capability; it is an essential. It is crazy when you look at the numbers of hulls we have now. It makes you wonder how far out they plan these things. I will have to check the timelines but I wonder if T45 ASW capability was chopped when we were still going to have 13 T26’s? Um. It is interesting to compare all this with SeaCeptor as T26… Read more »

TwinTiger
Guest
TwinTiger

Is this a ‘Hunt for Red October’ incident?

The riddler
Guest
The riddler

Perhaps there are capabilities bolted on that Joe public rightly no knowledge of.

Frank62
Guest
Frank62

If a foriegn enemy disabled an essential weapon system it is called sabotage. If our government deletes the same simply for cost-saving it should be called treason. The smaller our navy, the more critical it is that all our warships have a comprehensive & effective weapons fit. We are one of the wealthiest economies on the planet, yet we can’t or don’t want to collect the taxes necessary to give our armed forces the kit they need to stand a good chance against our likely opposition. All our frigates & destroyers should have effective ASW ability, no ifs or buts.… Read more »

Simon
Guest
Simon

As a slight aside one could look at T26 as something that kills the submarine (archer) and T45 as something that kills the aircraft (archer). The flip side is that T26 can only kill the missile (arrow) with CAMM and T45 can only kill the torpedo (arrow) with SSTD. Having a single ship that can do all of the archers and arrows would be expensive and slightly pointless in a real situation because of where you physically position your escort screen in a task group. However, having said this I do sometimes wonder if economies of scale would be better… Read more »

Dan
Guest
Dan

I believe I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere that the replacement for the T45 is expected to be built on the T26 hull, or a development of it. Perhaps the T26 will evolve into a successor that can fulfil both roles simultaneously? (The only trouble is, the government will then use it as an excuse to build half as many ships…)

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

If you had a large fleet then separating first rate systems into two separate classes makes sense as it does mean the cost of the ship is reduced. But that only works if all hulls contribute something to total defence by having second rate systems to supplement the total effort. So we fit AAW missiles to submarine hunters, and we should fit anti-submarine systems to aircraft shooters. It is all very well having you TAS patrol over the horizon but that leaves a lot of ocean to cover if something has slipped in. The Americans fit first rate systems to… Read more »

Simon
Guest
Simon

That “lot of ocean” would be covered by Merlin from a carrier that most of our continental friends do not have.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Yes. Because having a large sensor in the water all the time isn’t preferable to having a small sensor ‘dipped in’ for a limited duration. The answer is the two complement each other.

The extent to which the majority here think the carrier is the answer to everything is slightly amusing.

donald_of_tokyo
Guest
donald_of_tokyo

Nothing to surprise. If not, Trafalger will be claimed to be a very bad submarine. Trafalger SSN is better than (at least) non-ASW escort, T45. Even if T45 carries S2050 sonar, the result will not change. Even the Wildcat added with FLASH-S dipping sonar, may be the same. Still the SSN has good chance to win, simply because Wildcat with FLASH sonar cannot flight long time. SSN just need to wait for a few hours. But, I agree better ASW kit is needed for T45, not to hunt enemy sub in solo, but to contribute to ASW as a fleet.… Read more »

Gavin Gordon
Guest
Gavin Gordon

Just an aside on the lack of ASW on T45; mustn’t totally ignore the small issue that they can ship Merlin.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

If it wasn’t for the small issue that we are running out of Merlin too. The ship provides area surveillance and then the helicopter gets sent off to narrow down the target’s location. If you have a squadron of ASW helicopters aboard a carrier they may perform screening operations. But the true screen is provided the escorts in direct vicinity of the HVU’s. Helicopters are additional. (A submarine tracking a group will know where the ships are approximately. But a helicopter has much greater freedom of movement.) A T45 with out a decent hull mounted sonar like 2050 and just… Read more »

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

I have said this a few times, T31 should be fresh builds based on the T23 hull with updated layout and equipment. That way we get a proven ASW hullform that we own already and dont need to pay IP on. T26 is supposedly the best hull form from an ASW point of view on the planet, it therefore makes sense that we use this for T45 replacement (they are virtually identical in size, tonnage etc). It seems to me that with a slight adjustment (mid ship Mk41 silo in addition to front silos + improved Radar) we take T26… Read more »

Helions
Guest
Helions

The USN is getting serious about high end ASW work again. They’re activating a submarine “Top Gun” unit. Wonder if they’ll permanently assign a couple of LA class boats to it instead of decomming them? I’m sure the RN sub force would be chomping at the dive planes to show their stuff.

https://news.usni.org/2018/11/08/submarine-forces-china-russia

Cheers!